EP #99 - How The Bleeders Built A New Zealand Punk Legacy

I sat down with Angelo and Gareth from the legendary New Zealand punk rock band The Bleeders as they celebrate 20 years of As Sweet As Sin. We dig into the early scene that built them, the Canada move that broke them for a while, and why live shows still beat algorithms every day of the week. 

We talked How the band forms through friendship and straight-up poaching from other local bands, the early “we’ve got something here” moments, radio and streaming, social media fatigue and the snowball to the 2009 breakup.

What they would change with hindsight, Translating “All That Glitters” into Te Reo Māori., weird gigs, chaos shows, and meeting heroes like Lemmy and the Sex Pistols. https://www.tiktok.com/@onlyscottspodcast

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

And I'm here with New Zealand Punk Rock Legends, the Bleeders. Oh, what's up, man? Did you like that? The Legends. Legends.

SPEAKER_03 0:08

You're just making me feel old now.

SPEAKER_01 0:09

I was gonna say legends like Scottness is old. But hey, we'll take it, man. It's cool.

SPEAKER_00 0:13

And they brought a gift, they brought it, the guys brought a gift for me. I got the I got the bleeders shirt and green and white. I love it because I got too many black shirts as well. So this is sick. Awesome. Celebrating their 20-year album as sweet as sin. And I or saw a video actually, you guys getting pressed for vinyl as well. Very exciting. And um now going on a nationwide tour across New Zealand. How does it uh did you guys just come back again recently, or have you been back together for a few years now, right? Let's settle the score.

SPEAKER_03 0:44

Let's set do you want to settle the score? Because we're this and it's not a no fault of yours, but every time we go on tour, which is basically not all the time, but we we basically play every year, yeah, we get the reunion things. Yeah. So so you know, we we broke up in 2009, the end of the year, and we were in hiatus for maybe seven or eight years, and then we got back together in like 2018 and said, let's do it proper, and we released a record in 2019. We keep playing, but it's always a reunion for some reason.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Can I just jump in there because we actually did play some shows 2013?

SPEAKER_03 1:18

Yeah, they were reunions. That they were reunions, yeah, yeah. But that reunion word has been used ever since.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

It's too much as like you you you have been back together now for eight years.

SPEAKER_03 1:27

Well, I never liked those bands that milked 50 reunions. Yeah. We did a couple spaced out and then we got back together and we've been together since.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

I don't I can I also I I kind of feel like saying we broke up, like when bands break up as well, usually there's like a beef. There wasn't any hiatus. We we always thought of a hiatus and a breakup. Like we'd all we'd never kind of talked about that's it, we're never doing it again. Um we're living in different sides of the world as well. So I think logistically we it made sense at that point too, you know. So but uh but yeah, that's yeah, that's yeah, it is good because you do we do get asked that question a lot. Oh, you're back together again. It's like reunion, and we've been playing, we've writing new music.

SPEAKER_03 2:04

I think what it is is that when a band reaches those milestones of 20 years, it's special and you celebrate it and it feels like reunion. So I think our debut EP at Bleeding Heart came out in 2003. So in 2023, when we go on tour, what are we gonna milk? We're gonna milk that. That's what we're doing here. It's like these 20 year anniversaries are being celebrated, you know. Then the second album will have 20 years next year. It's like, you know, but we're still actively making new music as well.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

Yeah, yeah, it depends on what I guess what you want to make a big deal about on the tour, right? What is the tour for? Is it new material? Are we revisiting things? I mean, at the moment, uh Bring Me the Horizon's doing their um Count Your Blessings, they're they're doing a whole remaster, I'm sorry, re-recording the whole album, which is nuts. But um, yeah, because I was I hated that up when it came out, I'll be honest. But I was like, this is fucking shit. And then um, and then years later, Sepatonel came out, and I'm like, I like this. Yeah, yeah, but I I wasn't really into the deaf core like myself personally, but then I was like, okay, now these guys are really special, something, and now they're one of the biggest metal bands in the world, yeah, which is pretty awesome. Um, yeah, fuck, there's so much to talk about of you guys. Kind of like just it's like I kind of don't know where to begin because there's like obviously a lot of history of you guys, you know, toured the world, done so much New Zealand, and then um I guess I just kind of want to start with saying, like, I'll be honest, I back when I was when I was a young boy, when you guys were when you guys were at probably at your peak, I was not that familiar with you. Um, unfortunately. I think I might have heard like the name. I remember you guys be on fuckloads of posters, like the bleeders were just everywhere, I swear. But I don't really remember like the music so much uh personally, but um I think like what um what I find really cool with you guys is when I listen to the music, I'm like, this is like a real special point in like New Zealand music to me. And I'm not just saying that to be cheesy because I think you guys like you know how New Zealands were always like a little bit behind with things, but you guys kind of came in at a time with I guess the punk rock emo hardcore stuff, like kind of on the on the point, even like worldwide, what was going on. Like it wasn't like a to I guess to me, it's not like you you jumped on a trend.

SPEAKER_03 4:11

Yeah, absolutely not. I'll own it right now. I think what we were doing, we started it here, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And um, I want to go back to back then because you guys were obviously dressing in black, you know, doing kind of like the I guess what would you call it, the emo hardcore look sort of thing that wasn't really like a done thing. What was what was that like when you guys were kind of coming out with that? Because you must have quite a bit of like pushback. People were like, what the fuck are these guys doing? Did you guys get a bit of that in the beginning?

SPEAKER_03 4:37

Was there quite a bit of did you guys have a bit of a I would say at the beginning, not so much, probably a couple years in more than anything.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

I think what I found personally, I was like, you know, there's bands like the Nerve Agents and bands like that that are like wear makeup or like I guess, and there's like I get you know, like there's there's definitely like some kind of darker bands and more goth kind of bands. So it wasn't really for us an emo thing. And then bands like Green Day started rocking stuff the similar, and then that was when I think we were like, uh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:07

I look back at that time and it's it's interesting because I I like a lot of goth music and I got friends that are old goths, and they went through a period where it was like there were people would yell out of their car, emos, and they're like, I'm not an emo man. So we're not claiming we're a goth band, but I think we were influenced by the goth punk stuff like the misfits, yeah, like early AFI, bands like that, Tiger Army, bands like that were really influential for us. And I think coming from a hardcore and a punk scene which had celebrated the East Coast, I think the early bleeder stuff we wanted to capture more of what would you call like a West Coast hardcore punk sound that's a lot more melodic. So we just wanted, we were listening to this music and we wanted to be different to everyone else in the scene we're growing up in. So that made us original and different, but we were definitely inspired by what was going on over there. Yeah. Fast forward a couple years later, emo blows up. Yeah, like chemical romance, you name it mainstream, yeah. It becomes mainstream, then all of a sudden you get lumped in with that, which is fine. That that comes with the territory, right?

SPEAKER_00 6:10

Yeah, because um, I guess like to some people I talk to, and even I have a romanticized view of the 2000s of music, and also because I was a kid then, so naturally I have a very romanticized view of like Tony Hawk games, fucking like you know, I mean, I couldn't skateboard, but I pretended I could. Um, to then like you know, playing PlayStation, like Tekken and shit, and like all that, but I'm a kid, so obviously I'm just so like you know, you've become like oh man, times were simpler, but everyone has it as a view as a kid, obviously at the time, like the World Trade Center, like um like the Twin Twin Towers, there's politically in New Zealand, those things going on, like things weren't exactly great, but I'm a kid. I'm like, oh, life's amazing. Um, but I guess for you guys, with with like that uh with like the kind of a hardcore punk sound at the time, what kind of drew you guys together? You guys might have talked about this, so you can probably just summarize a few points. But what was something that brought you guys together? Like, what were you angry at at the time that kind of brought the band?

SPEAKER_01 7:04

It's interesting, eh, because like I I think from my experience, because again, Angelo's experience may be a bit different, but we we like we were all playing in bands, and then we ended up I remember me and Hadley played in a band together and uh with uh another another mate, Scrags, who played in a band called Day of Contempt and a few other bands as well, like uh Huckle bands, and then we were kind of playing in a band, I was playing bass for them, and then it kind of I don't know, like Hadley went over to Adelaide, I think, and then came back, and then was like we should start a band. And meanwhile, Angelo and him had already started talking, and I'd met Anne through the scene and stuff like that before, and then um we just said let's do something, and I remember the word different, it was just like let's do something different, you know. Like, and and I was like, Yeah, man, I'm into it, like, yeah, let's go. And then uh and then it kind of all just happened from there.

SPEAKER_03 7:55

I think you knew it's funny, I yeah, I I have a similar sort of memory of it as Gareth, but um, I'm always like the dad dude in the band, like the the boss guy who you know, I'm very ambitious, but deadlines guys the one that does all the way.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

I am, man, am and I make an admin, man, and I make fun of myself for it.

SPEAKER_03 8:12

You know, every band needs that person, right? And he's bang on. But I I I remember sort of you talk about 9-11. So in 2001, I lived in New York and I was there on 9-11, I experienced it. Oh wow, I just come off the warp tour, I'd been on the warp tour with a band called Shutdown, and I'd been hugely inspired by AFI was on that, and other bands at that time. It was a big time for Hellcat records like Rancid, and these bands were coming up, and I knew I wanted to do West Coast hardcore punk 100%, and got back. Hadley had moved back from Adelaide, and I'd known Hadley was really into punk stuff like good riddance and AFI and all of that, and he knew Gareth. My memory is I remember going to see Gareth's old band Smooth Jimmy's play at Papa Jack's, and I remember thinking, fuck that guy can play the shit out of the bass, and he's a good singer. Let's fucking steal him. Hadley, Hadley's Hadley's like an old friend of his, so he's like, Yeah, I'll get Gareth. Me and the drummer George, close friends since way back, same age, grew up together in punk hardcore scene. And then I think Ian played in a hardcore band called Malcontent from the North Shore. We were all westies and he was from the North Shore again. Just kind of came in and poached him. That's the reality of it. So it was like he's right, it came, it happened organically, but if you ask me, happened organically with a core group, and then we went out and went, Who do we need to get for our band? Yeah, and we did just jam, and and it was based on friendship, though I agree. Like we had a jam and we realized we had chemistry and and the rest was history, really. Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 9:46

Love that. Yeah, the poaching. Especially there, it must have been so tiny. Like you got like, how many people can you really like be keen on? Oh, you want to join this like kind of like new punk rock band? Like it's not like super heavy, but it's not like it's not light either, it's not just like a rock band, but kind of like this intermediate territory. Yeah, and people would be like, Yeah, there must be that must have been, yeah, that would be quite interesting. Trying to find people to be like, let's do something different, let's do something that people in New Zealand, especially in New Zealand, like like you know, I always say we lag five years behind. Um, as much as I love New Zealand, we are a bit slow. Um, but so especially for you coming from the States, I didn't know that. So you toured in the States beforehand before you got the Blitz together. That must have been interesting coming back to New Zealand at that time.

SPEAKER_03 10:28

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Yeah, you would have been like, wow, we can uh we can really do something here. That's it. The day I got home, that's not the best.

SPEAKER_03 10:35

The day home I got home from New York, I I remember going to real Groovy Records and digging through records and sitting at the front waiting for my friend and thinking, what the fuck have I done? I've come home, I've made a huge mistake. I wanted to stay there, but I don't know, fate is fate. I met my wife like a month later, everything happens for a reason, right? Um, but yeah, like I definitely for me, I came home driven. I came home being like, I've seen this stuff, what's going on over there, I like it. Wasn't a matter of me kind of stealing, it was like this is the stuff I'm already into, and it's popping off over there. New Zealand doesn't have really the sound of this thing. But again, going back to hardcore, which I kind of came from, is very, very influenced by New York City and the East Coast, and it wasn't so influenced by what was happening on the West Coast. And everyone knows like the West Coast, right? Sunshine, surf, skate, yeah, yeah, penny wise, skate park, good riddance, yeah, yeah, no effects, no things, happy, New York, they want to punch you in the nose. Yeah, so it's like I wanted to do something different, and it just so happened that friends of mine were on the walker as well, and then met these fellas and it worked out.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

Because I remember like the other thing as well, which was interesting too, is that um because and it was perfect timing for me because I was the smooth Jimmies were like a punk scar band, and I've never really been a massive fan of Scar, but it allowed me to kind of learn how to like do walking bass lines and stuff like that, and like bands like Rancid, like Matt Freeman, things like that, like Love That Dude. Um I before that though, I played in a hardcore band with uh the singer for Promise of Bloodshed playing hardcore music, and that's how I met Wadzy, and that's the first time I met you. I think that was before the smooth Jimmies, and then it kind of all came back in a few years later. So um that was yeah, it's a real crazy kind of uh way that that happened. Angelo, also first time I've heard that story about him watching the smooth jimmies at Bobba Chats before. So I'm like, oh okay, cool, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 12:29

Obviously, I met him earlier, but I don't remember him. Yeah, not memorable. You gotta remember, you gotta remember I'm ADHD as and I wasn't medicated back then, million miles an hour. So I probably met him and forgot about who the fuck I feel the vibe, I feel the vibe of that.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

I like it, I like it. But you but bro, like in order to do the things that you guys have done, like someone's gotta be like, you know, like it's to to get the the albums out, the releases, and to go on those tours and to do these things is crazy. Angelo's the ultimate motivator, man. Like, really, yeah. No, I I I felt the energy straight away and I really like it because um I don't think I I feel like in New Zealand at times people get a bit like yeah, it's the opposite of tool poppy syndrome. Yeah, you are bro. I love it. We have to have two.

SPEAKER_03 13:10

There's many, there's many like me. You're me. One in every band, and then four the other way around.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

Yeah, that's true. Um, when was I I guess uh I want to go back to the oh shit moment, this band can be more than what we fought. I want to go back to that. So after was it how because you have you guys in like 2006, like you guys were playing like the shows on like New Zealand, like the music awards and things like that. But when was the moment? I'm sure there must have been one like 2003 or four or something where it was like, okay, this band is now a bit more than just playing in the garage and local gigs. We're now opening for uh, you know, we're getting paid or things like that. Or get getting signed. And this episode is sponsored by me. Do you struggle with sleeping and particularly struggle with light and sound while sleeping? I think it's time you get the sleep that you deserve. My business Infinity Sleep specializes in sleep well-being products to enhance your sleep quality. I've been using sleep masks and airplugs for the past three years to help improve my sleep, and I'm so stoked to finally have ones that have been created for my own sleeping needs. If you would like to learn more about my business, Infinity Sleep, please visit our website www.infinitysleep.co dot nz. By making a purchase, you are directly not only supporting a local Yiwi business, but also this podcast. Use the promo code only scot fifteen percent and receive fifteen percent off your first order. Go to w dot infinitysleep.co dot nz to get the sleep that you deserve.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

Like I knew straight away, like honestly, I knew before, like probably I think the first the first practice we had with George uh and our drummer, and I remember we recorded something onto a tape, I brought it home, and I remember putting into a cassette player, and I played it with my parents who were like, what the hell is this? Like, and I said, This is it, this is this is gonna be awesome. Like, I know this is the band, this is the band that's that's gonna make it. I just knew at that point, and then uh um yeah, but yeah, in terms of the other stuff though, I I reckon that was a thing I knew at that time.

SPEAKER_03 15:11

Do you remember a joke I made? I made a joke, I cracked this is this is real, this is not this is not bullshit, this is real. Probably our second practice, maybe our third practice, we were at uh like a practice rehearsal place and city works depot in the city, and I was like, this band's gonna get a record deal. I said, give us one year, we'll be signed to Universal Records. And I I was just throwing our name out there. There's so many different labels, and we signed to Universal Records in 2008. Yeah, like I I I didn't I just threw that out there and I was kind of half joking. It was it was a joke, but it was kind of my way of saying there's something here. I think to speak on what Gara's saying, I think our first show was really, really good. So again, I've got to give credit where credit's due, right? So like we came up through music scenes, which are tight communities. There's people who play in bands who practice in their garage and then they play a gig and they hope people come. Then there's people who are involved in in tight-knit scenes, and we were involved in hardcore and punk, and we knew the bands, and that helped us. I've got to give credit where credit's due. Our very first gig was a huge lineup. Played at the King's Arms was completely full, five, six hundred people, and people were vibing on us straight away. I I don't know that exact moment, but my if my memory serves me straight, we were headlining shows after three months. Three, maybe six months. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 16:35

I there was also that we were headlining pretty quick. Because there was also like a bit of a a bit of a coincidence as well, like uh the story where you met Max uh as well. Like and and like so we'd just played our first show, the guitar tech from good is he a guitar tech or tech from good charlotte. Oh yeah, wow, like Angelo ran into him in the street um before like like the night before our show or something. He came to our first show, Ange put him on the door, and then Good Charlotte was playing Edge Fest. Wow, they're shouting out like yo, what's up? Like, throw it out to our boys the bleeders. They've never met us.

SPEAKER_02 17:13

This is true. We were touring with them a year later.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

And and then and then yeah, then they got in touch with us, they sent us boxes of merch, like that's right, made clothing. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 17:21

We were made, we were hooked up with made clothing.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

Wow, yeah, it's so crazy, man. Like, and then and then they took us out on tour with them, and they were rad, like real good dudes, man. So it just goes back again.

SPEAKER_03 17:32

I gotta give credit where credit's due. Yeah, while we were not a hardcore band per se, that's where we came up, and community supports community, and there's a lot of people that we're grateful to for giving us a platform, giving us an opportunity to play to lots of people early on. You know, we that that kind of term rent a crowd, where we got the rent a crowd early on and gave us an opportunity to say, well, actually, we got something here, and relationships are everything meeting good Charlotte, meeting Max, meeting, you know, down the track down the track, you know, through friends, getting an event sevenfold tour. I met Davy Havoc from AFI on the warp tour in 2001 when I lived in New York. And then within four years, we're supporting them as well. It's just relationships, yeah, fate.

SPEAKER_00 18:19

Who you know and what you know quite often is that, yeah. That's fate. Yeah, that's crazy how all those uh events happen in such a short amount of time. Do you that's that's wild to me. Like just a short amount of time and just like the da da da da da magic in a bottle, like they say, right?

SPEAKER_03 18:33

Like lightning bulb moment, yeah, fate, but like I say, no one's self-made, like there's a lot of good people who helped to get us where we were.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

You guys would have worked very hard for a long time before that, playing in bands, and you know, you were in the States playing other bands. It's not it's not like that happened, but I guess to some people it's like how would I say it? It's like I put in work for so long, and then I'm not in the right place at the right time. I don't have those connections and that, and um, you know, there is probably there's an element of like the hard work and luck manage to align. That's probably the bit, but you're putting yourself to create your own luck as well. 100%. So I don't want to like discredit it.

SPEAKER_01 19:08

I would also say we we almost got to a point where we were overplaying, like that's how much we were playing. We were playing like shows in Hamilton, Auckland, almost every single weekend for a while as well. Like we were we were a hardworking band, we were always out on the road touring, like so I mean yeah, I think I think a lot also as well with with um the bands in particular, and it's awesome that you acknowledged it, people don't actually realize how much work goes into practicing and writing music and all that stuff before getting up onto stage. And yeah, it's it's the accumulation of all of those things and then obviously being in the right place at the right time with the right people and also being the right people as well. I mean, you know, Angelo mate, hats off to you for having those conversations with those people and and having an impact on them enough to be able to then uh bring us into to going on tour with them and things like that too, you know. So, like not everyone gets that opportunity, but um, you know, like but as I listen to Gareth, I can't help but reflect that that's back then.

SPEAKER_03 20:10

You might get to that later, but that's not today. Yes, but you know what I mean? Bands don't even have to be good anymore, and I'm not a dick, I'm not gonna name any bands, but bands don't have to be good anymore. You used to have to be good to get popular, now it's about an algorithm and how good looking you are.

SPEAKER_00 20:26

Uh I really wanted to talk to you guys about because when I look back on like that time period of music you guys came up with and that to me it's and probably to all of it, it's a very special time in New Zealand music because also at the time, if I might butcher this a little bit, but the government had funding for the arts, so a lot of people could have uh a lot of bands and upcoming artists, uh not just in music, but I think in performance arts, other things. There's a lot of funding going on that was easier for like if you had a band or a project and you were proving that you were doing something of value then you would be invested in and could create something. Um that doesn't hasn't existed for a fucking long time, and it would be amazing to have that back. But obviously, a lot of people, including myself, when I was playing in bands and stuff, I would look back on that and be like, Man, like why don't I have that? Um but at the same time, I think also just the music, like the like there was just so much great music. I mean, the first CD I bought was Scribe. Yeah, and and then I and then there was like obviously all the great rock music going on, and it was just New Zealand music was just fucking going great. I mean, it's hard for me not to romanticize it, but it does look great, and I think since then it's um it's just been a bit of a shame, but we are in a weird point with music now. I want to talk to you guys about you know even New Zealand music now, because I I know a lot of guys in like the music scene, I go a lot a lot of gigs like Big Fan and stuff. Check out you got the boondocks actually coming up on your on one of your gigs too. Great band. Love those, I've had them on here a few times too. Love those fellas. And um, I wanted to like talk to you guys about like with like algorithms and like record labels and how the music industry works now. It must be a bit strange because also I guess you guys social media was there, like YouTube came out in 2005, and and then but then music. Was being uploaded, but then I guess it didn't like the whole vivo thing that came out. I was reminded of that when I was listening to a guy's music. Yeah, the Vivo thing, that's right. Um, but anyway, um, I was like um where was I going over this? I was like, oh yeah, shit. Like you guys kind of, I guess when you broke up the band, it was kind of at like just before like the social media was taken seriously. Because social media wasn't taken seriously for a very long time. You know, like people would find music on MySpace or you'd find music on on YouTube, but it was all like it was it, I d I don't think any industry or business was like, oh, let's invest in social media. I still find it bizarre that people take it as seriously as as uh as they do sometimes these days because it used to be like a it was just cat videos and like porn and shit. Yeah. Um but anyway, just anyway, that was a long tangent, but I kind of want to get your guys' thoughts on like on where the music industry is now for in in in your guys' opinion. What's your opinion?

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Uh it is interesting you mentioned digital stuff because I remember when we signed to Universal and uh iTunes was just starting to be a thing. And I remember that it was like it's don't worry about it, it's not gonna be it's not gonna be a thing. It's not gonna be a thing. And I was like, well, you know, actually, hey, look at it now. Um I think I think it's different now. I think the New Zealand music scene is is really strong. There's still plenty of artists out there with messages that they want to get out there. They're passionate, they've they they you know, there's there's still that angst there as well. There's there's and and that's from I guess our genre, you know, like punk and hardcore, that's definitely still alive and well. And then there's other other music out there as well that's amazing. Country music, there's you know awesome pop pop music as well, like the ability now for people to make music in their homes, and uh it so it means there's more of it. Um I just think that it would be great if there was was funding from the government to be able to uh support that again because mate, you actually brought up a great point about all those bands that were at that time. And those are lucky, we all lucky man. So many good bands, and that's because they got given a bit of a leg up, you know? And sometimes that's all it takes. So yeah, I think it's like it's I think there's definitely lots and lots and lots of uh great bands still out there. Um there's a lot of artists out there as well that are amazing that they just need to be seen, you know. And and the challenge with social media is a saturation, there's so much of them to consume. You you miss stuff, you know.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

Yeah, and I'd that's um some I I saw a stat as well, like I think it was 2022 at the end of it. There were uh like Instagram and like meta sign-ups, which I saw there's less sign-ups happening now. I think it peaked. So I think it's starting to go down, which I think is probably good for society in general, but um for artists and that and obviously how the music industry works with these massive corporations, Universal, so um uh like um what's the other big ones? There's Universal, there's Warner, and then what's the fizz of another one? I forgot. There's so many, and then there used to be EMI doesn't exist anymore. Um, but that I think it's just the big three now. Owned by um is Apple one as well. I mean, technically you could argue they are, aren't they? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true. So I suppose now it's like, yeah, what am I trying to get it? Trying to get it that it's like with social media now, you are it's so competitive, right? If you make one song, gotta make a hundred pieces of content to then release at a time. You know, that's kind of just the way better works. And I want to know you guys fully.

SPEAKER_03 25:20

This is where I where I struggle with it. I I I totally understand it and I respect it, and I think it's amazing what like a lot of younger new bands are doing. Like it's really, really cool. Um, you get to our age, I hate to say it, but it's just too exhausting to keep up with that. It really is. So so I've had this conversation and it's understanding how people think now. I had a conversation with a friend years ago, and he was telling me that the bleeders need to do more and more and more on social media because this band has 20,000 followers and they're a hardcore band, and you have like a couple of thousand followers and you have a gold record and awards, and it's like, yeah, but people come to our shows. So there's bands that are famous on the internet, there's bands that have millions of streams, millions of streams, loads of followers, and they have 30 people at a show. We know we can still bring bring people out to shows. So it's about balance. I think at our age, I think we would just come across as like wannabe boomers if we were out there. Could you it'd be a bit cringy if we were out there trying to do all these reels, trying to like no one wants to see me in front of the in front of the camera, drinking a cup of coffee, preparing for a show. You know, it's like I mean maybe they're dead.

SPEAKER_01 26:34

You don't know that. Yeah, that is that is true. It's always people that are into it, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:38

But it is important, we get it, we understand it's important, and that's why we're on there.

SPEAKER_01 26:42

But I I personally reckon, and you've probably heard this this take on things before. I just think it's so true though. Like, there's no mystery anymore. No mystery. You know what I mean? No mystery. And that's why there's massive mystic.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

Everyone wants to know every little bit about you and your life. It's like celebrity culture, from what I remember 20 years ago on steroids. It's like we want to know what you drink, we want to know what you eat, we want to know what bag you've got, um, we want to know what hat you wear, what shoes you wear. I mean, it's just so crazy. Like privacy is um yeah, there's not really much privacy anymore, I think, for a lot of people. And so people are just like open to wanting everyone to know about them as well, which I think is also some kind of narcissism that's kind of been perpetuated on society, but now it's accepted. I find that even at times like obviously I'm on socials, got the podcast, I do my my business and stuff and all that, so I I get it. You know, you've got to be out there showcasing, and people are on their phones, and it's like as much as I'm obviously like, yeah, their phone addiction, there's issues with it, but at the same time, if you want your shit scene, like unnecessary evil, you kind of it's like, well, what games do we want to play? Like, you know, if if we want to get ourselves out there.

SPEAKER_03 27:48

But I think it's important just to circle back around as an individual or as a band, you've just got to reflect on yourself and be like, why do I do this? Right. Why do I create art? Why am I in a band? I can only speak for our band. We play in a band because we're best friends, we care about one another, we love the energy of playing live, we love our fans, our fans sing our songs back to us, they know every lyric, they buy all our records, our merch, they love what we do. For me, and I can only speak to myself, I'll celebrate that over, you know, a million streams and a million followers, but no real, sort of no real fan.

SPEAKER_00 28:27

It doesn't translate, it's not translating from the digital world to the real world.

SPEAKER_03 28:30

Yeah, no fan base. For me, it's still about the music. I I can't remember. This really annoys me. I've been telling people I heard on a podcast maybe a year ago, someone talking about what does your content look like? And he was an older famous musician. He said, My content. Fuck my content. I'm a fucking musician, I'm not a content maker, I write music. Have we forgotten it's about music? Yeah, you know what I mean? A lot of people now it's about looking pretty on video and and telling people what you're wearing to the show tonight rather than hey, we wrote a new song. Check out our new song.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

Another big part for me is human connection, man. Like when you come to a show, you're in person, you're there, and and also as well, like uh to Angela's point, our fans are the best, man, because they're all great people and you just see it at shows. Like you've got people that have met their met their wives there at our shows, you've got net friends, there's like all these kind of things that happen, and the cool thing is, and this is awesome when we tour around the country as well, uh, and why these I guess these tours are so special as well. It's because you see same the same people that you saw 20 years ago to bring their kids now. They bring their kids to our shows. It's like, man, this is it's you know, it's it's that just reminds you why you do it, you know. That's real special.

SPEAKER_03 29:47

Yeah, but it's really important to point out that we can only speak to our own experience. I have no hatred, no issue with new bands and how they do things because this is the world we live on.

SPEAKER_02 29:57

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:57

There's just no point in us trying to pretend we're something that we're not. That's what that's where it is for me. I have a young son, he's 13. Music is different for him, the way he experiences things, consumes it, yeah, consumes it. You know, he gets bored, he puts on songs in the car with his friends Travis Scott and all that, and halfway through a song he's on to Don Tolliver. It's like, can you not even listen to a full song, dude? People are different now. No, no hate from me, only only love. I can only speak from our experience.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

Nah, yeah, I get that. The other thing that happens a lot now in um in the entertainment industry, but also in like business and that and influences and all this shit is the amount of followers you have and how real that is. Because that's a lot of problems going on at the moment with like, okay, if a business, for example, oh, we would get this influencer or this person to talk about the brand or promote this, but if it was real, and also now I've got AI influences out there now as well. So you've got this extra layer of like, well, how much now am I seeing online is even fucking real? It scares me. So now it's um I always find now we're in a very interesting place where it's like, I wonder if we're gonna become I spoke this on this podcast about a few times, but I mentioned it again because I think it's relevant, um, is the humanless internet. I don't know if you guys have ever heard of the theory. It was about 2014, I think. I can't remember the guy who wrote it, I really should, because I've quoted on a few times. But essentially, it's about like the internet just becomes bots.

SPEAKER_03 31:15

More bots than people. Yeah, it's overrun by bots.

SPEAKER_00 31:18

Yeah, exactly. So then, and with this, like with AI and that and people having AI content, AI influences, and then also with comments as well. A lot of the accounts that you see even in comments are bots. So it's like if you think about it, like at this point, now I do wonder, especially like Instagram and the meta platforms and even YouTube now, how much of this is uh is humans and how much is bots, and then the content you're watching as well. Because you can now, if you see some of the AI video stuff it's created, I mean it's just like a multi-million dollar Hollywood movie, some of it. So it makes you think like, well, if someone say, for example, down the street here, someone blew up the park or something, I was like, oh shit, but it's just an AI video, but then everyone stops believing it. So I wonder if this will be a deterrent to get people off it. I don't know. I I think about this shit a lot.

SPEAKER_03 32:01

I hope so. And look, it comes back to what I said earlier. Without being a dick, the only thing that you can really judge for real is when you hop on stage and the the club's full. You can't fake that. No, maybe maybe in 10 years' time you'll be able to fake it. Yeah. When we've got bots at our shows. But at the moment, at the moment, that's one thing we had a hang our hat on, is that there's in the crowd engaging.

SPEAKER_00 32:25

I think you guys are very set there. Um the boondocks are on here, and I was talking to them about um talking, we talked about this kind of similar conversation about streaming and you know uh posting content and all that kind of shit. But one thing I w I spoke to them about was like, well, what actually helps the band more? And uh surprisingly, you'd think like like streaming-wise talking now, and it's radio. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's so interesting if like, you know, everyone, everyone, the radio's dead, like this, that, and the other. That conversation's happened a lot. But like, for example, they get played on the rock or get put on um Horacky, I think, as well. They're on both. Um, and that helps them the most. Yep. People still, like, for example, trade's on like you know, construction sites or people driving the work, listening to the rock on the morning. Yeah, yeah. People still and it actually translates the most to people coming to your shows or actually buying your merch or isn't that interesting? It translates more than all these. I mean, I mean, I guess hard to quantify, but that's just their experience of what the what what what they told me from I would say financially it will as well.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

Yeah, yeah, like by far. Like, yeah, the amount of royalties you get from radio play versus streams on uh any of the streaming platforms is it's obviously way, way, way higher on on radio too. So financially impacting is is much bigger too. So yeah, I don't I think um yeah, I don't know. It's like a it's it's an interesting thing around like uh especially with like streaming services and stuff like that. Like I I I still don't understand how we got where we are with that. Like it's just convenience. I mean, that's essentially what it's just all convenience. I I guess I guess so. It's now we've kind of been forced into it as well. Like if you're not on there, it's like social media. Like if you're not on there, then you're not relevant or you know, people don't have access to your, you know. So I think it's that's not a great place to be, I don't think. Uh it is one of those things though, necessary evil. And uh I I know for people that live internationally, it's quite a good thing to be able to like I can still listen to that band even though I'm not in the country anymore, you know. Like that's that's quite a good thing. But I mean, I don't know. Social media on my phone, it's there's it's in a folder that says antisocial. So um I actually it's put like a little kind of buffer in there for me. So I'm only going on there as a purpose. Like if I'm messaging a friend or something like that, that's that's that's my take on it. I'm not a not an adopter really of uh of social media. I do have social media, I I don't post anything or anything like that though.

SPEAKER_00 34:47

So yeah, a healthier way to be. I mean, even I've like I'm so funny. I'm going back to like buying a button phone again because uh I've just become such a addicted so addicted to my phone, and just like I end up if I'm working on something, I get distracted, or I'll go look at a message. Oh, I got like another thing. I've tried all the apps to try and like reduce it, but I just bypass them all like a like a crack addict or something, like I need my fix. Need your top I need that brain rot, look at that shit. Absolutely. It's uh I'm like, yeah, it's but uh uh there's also a lot of events now which you you put your phones in, um, you know, they've collect your phones and that's before shows. And I think it is relevant. Um and uh I think on uh that was like a month or two ago, there was this girl in America who sued Meta and won uh for I think she became a social she became addicted to social media at the age of nine, and then she became like because of all the content she was getting and looking at it was she adopted like bot body mismorphia and like mental health issues, but then she managed to actually win this case. It wasn't heaps of money, but I think like a couple mil, but it was still something. But they but she was like 20 years old at this point, so that was pretty cool. So I think that we're starting to see some pushback rebellion on it because social media, Facebook once upon a time, it was fucking cool, man. Like it was actually fun.

SPEAKER_03 36:05

Give me MySpace, yeah. Bring back Myspace. Do you know? I always say that as our little joke, shows it all. Bring back MySpace. The bleeders only got a few thousand fans on Instagram. I'm like, we had 40,000 friends on MySpace motherfucker. That's just showing our age, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 36:21

Yeah, MySpace days. Yeah, yeah. And then like the top eight. The top eight. Oh yeah, Tom. Yeah. Top eight, yeah. Yeah, just make it simple. I guess simple. I guess now because just like addiction data, like how do we keep people on the apps longer? How do we keep people engaging longer? I mean, absolutely. That's what it is. Um, on to some other things. I wanted to I want to talk to you guys about if you don't mind touching on the when why you guys disbanded, because to me, it looks like a bit of a snowball effect, like from where because you sent through a bit of information about the band, a bit more of insider information about your album releases. Yep. And one thing that kind of caught my eye was like, I think you guys mentioned like 2009, you moved to Canada to do to do a tour with Alexis on Fire and take on the North American market. This year was tough, and we had fractured and then broke up in December 2009 and moved home. What kind of broke the camel's back?

SPEAKER_03 37:17

There's a variety of things, and I think Gareth will have his own story.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

Yeah, I probably will.

SPEAKER_03 37:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:22

Yep. Yeah, I think I like we from my perception, obviously, there's five of us in the band, right? We're living in the same house and everything like that. That's like a marriage. It's like a five-way house. Oh, totally, totally. Yep. And and pretty good, pretty good marriage. Um, we still we still love each other. Uh so it's all good. I was gonna say though, like we lived in a house, five of us, um, and again, you know, talking about fate, we moved over there, and the house that we got was right next door to uh Wade from Alexis on fire. Like just completely randomly correctly. Again, this is this is yeah, um I think uh I can't remember whose book it was. Someone said one in a million happens to him all the time. It's like the same thing with Ange as well. It's like out of all the places, we're right there next to him. But um, I think what happened is, and this is my just kind of logical breakdown, right? So we uh were over there, uh Universal Records kind of uh we had some plans to play South by Southwest, which we had to pull out of um the recession was starting to happen at that point, it was around 2008, I think it was. Yep. Global financial crisis. So the record labels started downsizing. Uh they uh were not going to give us tour support, which is where they kind of give you funding to go out on a tour and and tour records and stuff like that. So we had to pull out of South by Southwest because we didn't have enough money to do it. And then from there, it as you said, it just kind of snowballed. We then were working jobs, working like crazy, trying to get work over there, but couldn't get work. Uh I mean man, I I remember it's actually a pretty funny story. I remember um I used to smoke cigarettes back then and it was standing out on the on the kind of roof on the second story of our house in the middle of winter where it's snowing and stuff like that, because I couldn't be bothered walking all the way downstairs smoking a cigarette thinking, man, I've gone to like 80 job interviews and I can't get a job, and it was so hard. And it was like I have to just keep doing everything I can because this is our dream. This is like this is it, you know, we've moved overseas, we've made the trip, and um, I've I really I have to give it everything, and I I thought I had and just couldn't get a job. So I'm sitting there smoking a cigarette and just thinking, man, this is what am I gonna do? I'm gonna have to go back home with my tail between my legs. And this guy walks past, just we lived in like a bit of a sketchy area, and he's like, a Canadian dude, he's like, hey buddy, if you're gonna kill yourself, you know you're gonna have to get up higher than that.

SPEAKER_00 39:46

Jeez.

SPEAKER_01 39:46

And I'm just like like I must have just had that look. And also dark. I know I know I know this and I'm like, I'm like, like thanks, like thanks for the advice. I'm just like, this is this is so shitty. And then and then and then everything for me started kind of falling into place a little bit. I got a job working in a woman's clothing store and like started kind of building up, and then we were also trying to write a new album in that time off, and because we're all working so hard, we'd usually like how our writing process works is we usually write, like each of us will write roofs and things like that, and then we'll come to a room and then we'll kind of work through it together. Mate, what ended up happening is that we didn't have that time to spend on our own writing roofs, so we were getting into a room together trying to write roofs as a band, like just everyone making noise, everyone was tired, everyone was like grumpy, and then it just was like this is just not working anymore, you know. Like we we can't keep doing this. And and look, uh for me as well, like um at the time my mum had terminal cancer and back here in New Zealand. And um I will say that I wasn't the first to pull the uh pull the ripcord though. Um once once a couple of people had kind of gone, no, that's it, it's we've done what we can here, and I think it's time we we we kick it in the guts for a bit. Um I I'm not gonna lie, I was pretty happy to be able to come come back home to New Zealand. My partner, Rosie, was back in New Zealand as well, so we'd been apart for like nine months. So just just that's how it was. And then and then um yeah, then we kind of just had a bit of a break. It was it was tough, man, because we we honestly we we we gave it a crack. We we played some great shows over there as well. Um I mean we played at Sneaky D's once where we actually started getting and we started getting some pretty good um we started getting some pretty good kind of uh interaction from crowds and stuff over there as well. But just yeah, just the timing of everything, it didn't kind of work out, which is the same way if we looked at the start of things, the timing of things didn't work out at almost the exact opposite uh towards the end of that 2008 kind of 2009 period as well. So yeah, but I mean I don't know, that's that's my take on on kind of what happened.

SPEAKER_03 41:54

My take's exactly the same. I think if I can be vulnerable and and take some responsibility, I think we talked about how every band has that guy that drives things. I was so fucking done or visioned on what I wanted and so committed to what I wanted to achieve. And I I think looking back, it felt like the it felt like the logical step in the next progression for our band. We'd had a gold record, we'd won awards, we're packing up venues here. But the thing that people don't understand is, and a lot of people who hated on us didn't understand was we didn't do any of that because we wanted to be the biggest band in New Zealand. We didn't really care about being on TV or the radio. We wanted to play music around the world and tour. That was always our dream. So we were more looking up to bands. Our idols were not the bands on the major labels winning all the awards, they were like the small New Zealand bands that got out early and moved to Berlin or moved to New York City and just had a small loyal and that's where we came from, and that's all we wanted out of this band. You know, we did the things we did, sign the record label and all of that because we saw that as a way to get to the goal we really wanted. So international experiencing and traveling the world when you're in your 20s is is a dream, and I think that that's what we wanted, and it felt like the natural progression. I think if I can take responsibility, is that I'm so tunnel-visioned, me and the drummer I'm trying to remember, this is like a long time ago. But me and the drummer and one of the guitarists, like, right, we're ready, let's fucking go. We said we're gonna do this, and we flew over before Gareth and the other guitar player, so we went up there and set up. And when you're away doing that, all you're thinking about is where's this band gonna go? If I look back at time, the time wasn't right, Gareth's mom had cancer. You know what I mean? Some of the guys in the band's partners didn't follow. That should have been a warning sign, this isn't right. Do you know what I mean? Like my wife moved over there, she gave up a teaching job and worked in a coffee shop for minimum wage. We worked shit jobs over there. Yeah. Really, the reality is that everything we wanted to achieve, you should m you should relocate when the time is right where you've built a fan base of some extent where they can support the music dream. We should have really just gone over there and gone on tour.

unknown 44:16

Right.

SPEAKER_03 44:17

That's what we should have done, but we were like, okay, we've got a house, we've got to get jobs. All of a sudden you're working so many hours to get by in a recession that you're tired and you're snappy at one another, and you go to band practice, and there's no chemistry, no, you don't have, I guess, the the the artistic kind of drive anymore. It's kind of sucked out of you. I think that that's what happened to us from my perspective. That's what happened to us. Like I was really tunnel vision. If I look back, maybe some of the others weren't ready for that experience. That doesn't make them wrong or right or wrong. Probably we're all in our 20s. Being 46 years old, I think males in their 20s can be fucking selfish.

SPEAKER_02 45:00

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 45:00

And I think that's what it came down to, like not being on the same page and things happen for a reason.

SPEAKER_01 45:07

Yeah, man. Yep. Yeah. I think I I think that we yeah, we we seriously though, we we gave things a real good red hot go. Um and uh but that's so admirable though as well, because most people wouldn't.

SPEAKER_00 45:19

I feel like it'd be especially from New Zealand, like that's that's scary. Yeah, you know, it's like I feel like you're going so far away from home almost that it's like we don't have any support system, there's no one here to bail us out, or I can't just go home to mum. You know, it's it's a hit to your ego too.

SPEAKER_03 45:33

Yeah, yeah. Again, I can't name anyone in the band. I just we probably all felt a bit that way. It's a hit to your ego when you're playing in New Zealand and the venues are full, and people I don't drink, but the other guys, people want to buy you a shot at the bar, and all of a sudden you're playing in a shitty bar to 50 people and no one knows who you are. That takes a lot, that takes a special kind of person to be able to get through that. And I think in our heart we felt we could do it, but it just gets a little tough.

SPEAKER_01 45:59

I remember when I remember we went to Australia doing that. That was it was it just I at the first, I think the first one was the toughest when we were trying to build our our our kind of fan base over there. The first show I remember was probably the toughest, and then after that it became like a challenge. It was like, all right, we gotta win over this crowd, it doesn't matter who we're playing to, we just play as if we're playing to, you know, like a packed King's Arms, you know, like and I think that made us better performers as well by having that mindset and having that attitude to to kind of do that. And from I guess, you know, we're all humans and we're going through this crazy journey that is life. And I think for me personally, that trip to Canada was the best thing that ever happened to me in terms of work ethic. Uh you know, people talk about like character building and all that kind of those cliche type things. Honestly, though, that was super character building for me over there. Like um uh very used to having a support network, and my main goal was if I am gonna come back, I'm not gonna come back between with my tail between my legs. I'm gonna be over there going, I gave it everything, yeah, and we tried everything we could do, and um it just it just didn't it didn't work out, you know.

SPEAKER_03 47:04

You know what? No regrets, but but if people say to me, and people have said to me before, if you could do things differently, what would you have done? And I looking back now with like a business mind, and I look at what was happening in Australia just after we were popping parkway drive bands like that, yeah different type of music, but same kind of community, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:24

The alternative scene, yeah, right?

SPEAKER_03 47:26

Australia's got a lot of people, there's a and it things blew up over there, and after we left here, I saw a massive rise in Australia. Fan my time again, I think we were building in Australia. Maybe we should have just moved to Australia because if we'd moved to Australia, we might have been able to build ourselves to a to a level where we make enough money and sell enough merchandise to then go to Europe and America and tour because we had the income. We just sort of went all in for North America. Where no regrets, but that if we'd done that, things might have ended differently. But you know, everything happens for a reason.

SPEAKER_00 48:02

Hindsight, yeah, hindsight as well. But still amazing though. I mean, I still think like I don't think there's like uh many New Zealand bands or artists who've done that. I don't think so, not that I can think of, who've just gone over like to like North America and massive, we're gonna we're gonna go and work, and that's what we're doing.

SPEAKER_01 48:17

There's there's probably more than you think. Oh really? Yeah, yeah, there probably is. I know, I mean, I know bands that um or or people that have maybe disbanded from bands and then gone over themselves and tried to tried to do stuff.

SPEAKER_00 48:28

I'm I'm talking about like their whole band their livelihood, like you guys, like like like what you guys did. You guys like took your partners and everything and then moved. I don't think there's I don't no one's done that. It's pretty bad. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 48:41

Can you think of any? Yeah, sure, it's a good point. I don't know. Maybe it probably is, but um, yeah, it's not trying to shit on your point. Sorry, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_03 48:50

I look at band, I look at bands like I look at newer bands like Earth Tongue that have moved to Berlin and made it kind of like living their dream. What they're a band that I think of as kind of very differently musically, but kind of doing what we wanted to do. Like they just get by, they just tour Europe, come back home to New Zealand once a year and play shows, and it's great. Awesome. They get a lot of people over here love them, but they're living in Berlin, just kind of doing. Excuse me if I'm wrong, if they're in a different part of Germany, but I think they're in Berlin, just they go to New York, they go to LA, they play shows and they get by. I mean, I'm not in the in descent, or maybe they're broke, but they're they're living the dream. That's all we wanted to do. But when it gets to a point where you're working in a shitty clothing store, so you can live the dream. Um, do you remember like one more thing? Um, when it was tough, and I think at Gareth applying for a million jobs, the same thing happened for a couple of us that went early on, and I remember this is so funny, man. Like, just couldn't find a job, could not find a job. And then we saw on Craigslist this job, me and Ian saw this job to hand out flyers, like go to people's addresses and hand out flyers. We we went to this outside stubboo of Toronto, Canada, where we were living, and met this guy, and we walked around the streets knocking on doors, giving people flyers for a I guess you call it like a gypsy um crystal ball healer. Okay, like full, like that is how low thanks got for us. We're knocking on doors. This is a band, award-winning band from New Zealand. They played huge shows here and done great things. One year later in Canada in the freezing cold knocking on doors, selling crystal balls, making minimum wage. I'm telling you, minimum wage.

SPEAKER_01 50:28

I don't want to I don't want to try and one up here. I think I may have had the worst job though. So go on. So again, this is I was I was applying just about everywhere for all these different jobs, and um again on Craigslist, uh, and I applied for this job working in a sex shop. So selling an adult store. An adult store, that's what they call them. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, thank you. So should we take that again? Triple X adults, I don't know what it is. It's an adult store. Um, and there was a whole bunch of uh adult DVDs in that store, and uh and it was my job to uh so you'd essentially come in, have a bit of a peruse of the uh the store, maybe pick out something that that tickles your fancy, bring it up to the counter, and then I would book you in to go and use the uh the rooms upstairs. The booth. Yeah, the booth.

SPEAKER_00 51:17

Yeah, yeah, the adult video the adult video booth.

SPEAKER_01 51:20

Yeah, yeah. So so I guess what was soul crushing about that job is that I was the fourth person. Like I went for the interview and I was like, nailed it. Who else is applied for this job? I didn't get a call back. I'm like, are you serious? Like, are you serious? Like, how am I not getting this job? Like and then it just You're just not pervy enough. No, maybe not. Maybe I was too and and I think honestly that uh I yeah, wasn't cut out for that job. It was just a psychologically very because I'm not, you know, it was not a yeah, not a nice place to be, actually. So doesn't sound like that'd be strange.

SPEAKER_00 51:54

That just reminds me of like the video easy that would have like the back room like R18 space with the tassels, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or like the little like like revolving door. I'm like going in there as a kid and then like get out of there. I'm just like, oh there's boobs everywhere. The only point I could see. Yeah. But anyway, yeah, yeah, man. What a yeah, yeah, crazy. What an explore, what an experience. You guys have faced some adversity, that's for sure. Yeah, that's probably that's what's uh made you guys probably so great as well. Being able to do that and then come back and then uh um you know, still play shows to the same, and also you just love it so much that you keep doing it. I mean, like some that might break some people, shit like that. So, you know.

SPEAKER_03 52:34

I think it did break us for a couple years. A couple years for sure.

SPEAKER_00 52:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Need to kind of get back. Um, sidetrack a little bit. I want to talk about Angelo, your work that you did with you did a little documentary for um that uh all that glitters. You guys, you translated to to Terreo Maldi and um did some work with corrections and go into like the Mariah. Um talk a bit about the how that came about.

SPEAKER_03 52:58

Yeah, it's cool. Um that all happened by chance, really. Um, you know, um my friend Dean, who ran the record label that we were on at the beginning and then we re-signed with later on, massive supporter of the band, props to Dean Cameron. We wouldn't be where we are without him. His um wife works um as a director and a producer of movies and documentaries, and she works with White Anthems, and um, you know, they approached us um about doing a song in Tyrell. It was a no-brainer for us. We're like, hell yeah, we want to do that. That sounds amazing. So really, it just started there. What song would translate best? And we were like, all the glitters are so angry, it's so anti-establishment, and it's so um tino rangatera tanga like tea omari, like you know go to war. Yeah, absolutely, and it's an angry song. So it wasn't I I I can't remember when they asked us what song we want to do. I think it took us like three seconds, all the glitters. So it really started there, and the reason the documentary got made is then they wanted, she knew I worked as a probation officer, and um they wanted a narrative that's a bit different, and they were like, Well, F the system, but you work for the system. This is a really interesting narrative. Um, but we know you, Angelo, we know what you do, and we know that it's coming from the right place, so it would be a really cool backstory. So it's kind of like a song that's sort of like smash down the authority, build it in you, you know what I mean? For better word, in Tialmaria might be decolonize, tina ranger teratunga, do things your way, and here you are doing what you do. Tell us about that narrative. So when they first asked me and the band if we'd do that backstory, I have to thank the guys that are supportive of that. They could have been very much like, oh, we don't really want to connect ourselves with corrections. But they knew that I was passionate about what I do and I I love my job. So they just film me talking about what I do for a living and and my why, why I want to support people who have fallen through the cracks and support them. I think there's a quote I say in the documentary that is like, F the system, but the only way to change the system is from within the system. Within the system, yeah. So that's me, that's me to a T. Um, I love what I do. I love working with all different races and creeds, but you know, it's a special space with working with Mari and working at the Marae, and that was a um portfolio I was quite involved with, and um really proud of how that documentary turned out. In fact, I still I think we did that five or six years ago. Not five or six years, probably about three or four years ago. And um, I still to this day, I'll get like a young Māori man on my books, and they're like, I know you, bro. They show you your documentary in prison, and that's special, man. That that makes me get up for work in the morning, man.

SPEAKER_00 55:47

That's awesome. They're like, Yeah, change the system with with yeah, and within. Yeah, I guess like as even like um, I remember when I was playing in a band as well in like for ages, it's like fuck like it's fuck the system. And I remember like the do you guys remember the Occupy movement that was around and the ATS Square? Like we're going to those things and that. And I think those movements are still very relevant in that, and it's important. I think times at the moment that are going on, we're in a very strange world. Protests and all that, I think, uh still very important, but you raise a very good point, you know. If we want to see change, you kind of have to get in there, it's policies, it's you know, changing the systems within to create change and change and real change takes a lot of time to really actually happen, right? Even by the time a policy would go through, I'm just generically thinking about it, like it would take a few years, even for that to kind of you start to see ripples in society as well.

SPEAKER_03 56:38

Um, but yeah, and I and I I don't personally I can't even I can't speak for Gareth or the others, but I always resonated when I grow up listening to punk music. I really resonated when I found hardcore because hardcore is not Toby from H2O says this on his One Life One Chance podcast. He always says that punk rock is like if the system, if your mum, let's blow everything apart, and hardcore is let's change things. Let's there's a problem, let's what are we gonna do about it? What's the solution? And that's why I resonated as a young guy with hardcore. I I'm proud to say I don't connect with that spoilt trust fund kid punk rock. F the system, defund the police, get rid of everybody. It's easy to say when you're gonna inherit a million dollars, mum and dad die. We grew up in West Auckland, we've seen stuff, we've experienced stuff, and I want to be part of the solution.

SPEAKER_00 57:30

Yeah, no, I love that. Yeah, no, that's that's awesome, dude. Especially correction is a hard job. Yeah, my I got some um friends and people I know who are close to me who work in uh um their case managers. Cool. Um, yeah, work and income. That's a tough gig. Yeah, tough gig. They don't get paid enough, man. It's all it's rough. Yeah, I can uh sworn at the other week, actually, I'm not naming names or anything. I think it might have been on the news, actually. I think it was on the north shore. Someone actually got um someone jumped over the counter and beat up a case manager, which is wild when you think they're trying to help them. Yeah, but people are in people getting diet, people are desperate, people do crazy things. But um, I mean, yeah, I'm sure you've got plenty of stories and all sorts of sorts of wild stuff. Um years ago I used to work, I used to I was an audio visual tech. Funny, I used to say like I'm an A V and everyone, oh, is that like adult video? And I'm just like the same thing. Yeah, I know, yeah. I was at the booth broke. But um anyway, I used to work and um do like the video conferencing uh equipment and like the speaker system microphones and that in the courts. And I actually have to go work in like the um uh in the cell areas and stuff. Yeah, I get pretty gnarly. We're gonna talk about that afterwards, maybe. But um, yeah, it would just be like, yeah, opens your eyes and your mind and like everything to like, you know, you see, you know, as much like I said, love New Zealand, but you start to see another side of it. You start to see a lot of you know uh what reality really is for a lot of people, and I think it's important to people expose themselves to I mean, I'm very grateful I look back and I'm I'm you know grateful I was exposed to things like that to see it with my own eyes, and you get an idea of how thing how the world works. Um but yeah, man, absolutely awesome that you that you did that, and I think yeah, I'm hoping it sounds like it's had some positive effects with people as well. So I think so. I mean that's about it, right? Creating the positivity. I think now more than ever, uh we need a lot we need more positively. Yeah, man, absolutely, you know. Anyway, let's get into some fun stuff. You guys played loads of fucking shows. I want to know if there's a standout gig where you were like, what the fuck is this? Like you must it must have been a gig. You are like, this is just the weirdest show we've ever played. Like, this is just strange. I love asking musicians this. Can you guys pinpoint a gig or just like some very strange things happened?

SPEAKER_01 59:44

There was a real crazy show at the crown in Dunedin. Um yeah, so that used to be, I think from memory, there's like a pool bar next door to it, and we we played there. And uh I don't know whether it was oversold or what happened. Um, there was no there was no barrier at the front of the stage, and it was packed, like it was absolutely packed.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:08

And there still isn't Gareth, get ready, we're there in three weeks, buddy.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:11

Yeah, well that that no, but that that place, yeah, that place is it's kind of gone to a smaller venue on the side now. So I don't know. It used to be kind of like larger next door, like it was quite quite a big venue, and um they ended up like people were coming up onto the stage and like amps are falling over, drunk people trying to have conversations with us while we're playing, and it was like amps are falling over. The bar staff had to come out from behind the bar to try and hold people, and it was just chaos, and it was awesome. I don't think I chipped my tooth on the mic that day. It was like, oh, it was heaps of fun, it was a good time, but it was like it was chaos, yeah. Yeah, that's that's one that kind of springs to mind as being like kind of kind of a bit crazy. Um any any other shows from you, Mun?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:56

Man, we've experienced everything. We've experienced sold-out gigs, great gigs, absolute direct. So I can talk about closer to the difference. We've experienced like great gigs, like sold-out gigs, fun shows, lots of great bands, and then we've had some dives as well. I I can think of Palmerston North, man. I two things from Palmerston North, and I love you, Palmy, no hate, but we played a place called Governors, and the bouncer was this tough kind of gonna gang member kind of guy, and he was standing on stage instead of to the side, and then his daughter got on stage and they had an argument, you remember?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:33

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:34

Get in the crowd, girl, get back in the crowd girl, and they're having a verbal like altercation on stage with us. That same show we're out afterwards, and there's like skinheads out there, like Nazi skinheads, like, oh, we missed the show, yeah, blinders. We don't like Nazis, man. No, no, no, get out of here. And then I think of Palmi as well. One really bad mistake we made once is we booked a show. There was like a sort of middle of the year kind of tour, maybe. I don't know exactly, but there was a tour we booked where for some reason huge oversight. We went and played in Palmerson Northern University was out. And we played a so we played some great shows in Palmie, but we stayed played a show in Palmy at the Globe, I think. Oh man, I don't know like I'm I'm talking like 30 people. It was oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:19

I probably I probably got drunk and forgot it. That would have been that would have been one of those ones.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:23

I would have been like, so we've had some interesting experiences in Palmy, man. Um yeah, so many, so many great shows, so many fun experiences. I mean, playing with our heroes, like AFI is like my favorite band of all time. Favorite band of all time. And getting to tour Australia, playing arenas with them here. Um, but then again, top of the list is probably Motorhead, especially Lemmy's died. Now we've we played with motorhead and we all met him at Sound Check, we all shook his hand.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:56

That would have been crazy, absolutely unreal.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:58

Meeting Lemmy, like what the hell? Rock and roll legend, and watching him in Soundcheck get angry at the feedback. A fucking whistle, do that again.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:07

Yeah, that's that's probably like surprise you could hear it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he probably is. Yeah, yeah, probably couldn't. He's just taking a vibe. Uh yeah, that's probably like I I've I I I've said this a bunch of times. But probably the that's the coolest thing that's ever happened to me at sound check while we were sound checking. He comb over and um he came up to me and he was like, You guys are good, you're loaded. And I was like, awesome. And then he's like, I was like, I could I just like couldn't say anything. And he's like, What's your name? And I'm like, uh Gareth. And he's like, I won't remember your name, but I'll remember your face. God bless you, Gareth. And I got blessed by Lemmy, man. I was like, blessed by the rock guys, yeah. I was like, holy crap. Like, and I'd the only time I've ever and we've been lucky enough to meet a lot of our heroes. I yeah, the only time I literally was this like Star Strike. Yeah, I couldn't, yeah, it was very but then totally forget.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:54

We played all these great gigs with all these people we love back in the day, and then fast forward 20 years later or whatever, like last year we supported the Sex Pistols, like that's unreal for us. Sex Pistols are like the first punk band I ever heard. Me too. My older sister was a massive fan, and she put them onto me when I was like seven years old. I absolutely worship the Sex Pistols as a kid, and then for them to reform with a new singer from Gallows, which is a punk band that was huge, Frank Carter. Yeah, he's hugely like admire him as a vocalist and his energy and what he's about. He was absolutely the perfect fit. And I still pinch myself because like we played with the Sex Pistols, and you know, after the Christchurch show, we're backstage hanging out. Got we got a I got a photo on my phone with like Steve Jones' arm around me.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:43

I'm like that's unreal.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:44

It's absolutely unreal. Like people might think that's take that for granted, but that's huge, huge for us, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:52

Huge, massive. Yeah, absolutely. I'm that kid again listening back in your room when you're a kid, and it's like you're looking at the album artwork and that, and then suddenly that person is there, you're playing a show. Oh, it's insane. That's insane.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:04

So none of those moments are lost on us, eh? Like uh, you know, like we are very, very grateful that we've had those opportunities um to be able to spend that time with those people as well. It's just been nuts, like so so many. I mean, you know, like Davy Havoc as well from AFI, like when we uh Angelo and I had a actually there was a lot of people that played in the band Leeches playing a side project, and uh he was over in New Zealand uh doing a show with Black Audio, his other uh side project band, and he just turned up to our gig like in at Wemi Bar, you know, like this is it's like Davy Havoc just turns up and then he's like hanging out, gives us backstage passes to the show the next night, and it's like that was years later. So I love that he's a great guy. Yeah, it is spelled, it's spelled you know how it's spelled and stuff, like it's spelt with a Q and a K and stuff. No, I always want to steal that. That just sounds cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:53

Yeah, no, we've we've we have lived our dream like it's so cliche to saber when I'm Like, I'm dead spared. I'm gonna be like, I had a pretty cool life. I've been, you know, the only thing we didn't achieve with music is we didn't get the fuck a million bucks.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:07

That would be nice. So you got a million experiences, a million experiences.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:10

And I say that as a joke. Yeah, yeah. What I mean is that obviously you fulfill your dreams, it would be also nice if you could make an amazing career out of it and not have to worry and get a real job. But all the things we've done, all the experiences we have have just been unreal. Unreal. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:26

Yeah, man. I think you guys are just like, yeah. I mean, it's cheesy to say it, but I'll say it. You guys have a special place, I think, in New Zealand music and what you've done and being able to go overseas and do a lot of things. I think like even for like me, like I'm kind of like, man, I'm it's like it's inspiring, you know? Because like it gets I f it just gets sometimes like obviously now with the internet and a lot more things, you can get yourself out there more, but even just when you guys like manage to push yourselves to go overseas and go further. I mean, that's tough to come from, you know. I hate saying little old New Zealand, but yeah, little old New Zealand, you know. So I I think you guys have probably paved the way in a lot, and I hope this uh I hope I don't know if you guys have explained this in much detail before, but I appreciate it because I'm hoping people who listen take away something from this. Um and yeah, this was fucking fun. I really enjoyed this. Yeah, thank you, man.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:18

Good yard. It makes you go back into the memory bank, man. Yeah, it really does.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:22

Yeah, yeah, it really does. Getting almost not emotional, um getting like shit. I've never dealt delved into this like really before. And Angela and I haven't talked like this before. We don't usually jump on the city.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:33

For me to say here, like be vulnerable and say, actually, I gotta take ownership on what happened in Canada. Whereas at the time, I was like, fuck, these guys aren't on the walker with me. What the fuck? But to actually be able to reflect on it is special. I guess like the like closing comments that say is that it's not over. You know, we're still going, we're gonna go. We're writing a new record right now. We might be old, we might be a little slower, but um, we're ready for another fun new era of the band.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:02

Also, I throw something out there as well don't wait for the government to support New Zealand music. No, no, no, no, no, of course not. Get out there and bloody go and see live music, you know, like to anyone else that's uh listening to this, man. Like just go go see a band you've never heard of, like and just experience uh experience what they have to offer. There's so much awesome stuff out there.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:20

Sweet. Before we go, I think we'll just do a little like you guys want to talk about your tour that you're doing? Sure. Yeah. Um I've actually got it all here. Do you want me to say it or do you want to say it? Yeah, you do it because it'll be like I'm gonna go in front of it. I'll do it. Friday 19th, Christ Church, Space Academy. Yes. Saturday 20th, uh, June, Deneedon, the crown, and then Thursday, 20th, Hamilton, last place. Let's go, last place. Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, make sure you catch Doug. Say hi to Doug if you guys are. Yeah, yeah, Doug will be there. Yeah, fuck you. Doug will be there. We love Doug. Friday, 26th, June, New Plymouth at Asgard, and then Auckland Double Whammy on the 27th of June. I'm gonna have to come to that. That'll be fun. Hell yeah. Anyway, guys, thanks so much for coming on. It's actually been really fun. Um, I've had way more fun than I actually thought. Also, just so much learning about that time period, what you guys went through. This was fun, man. Yeah, thanks, Scott. Appreciate it, man. Yeah, sweet. Cheers, I'll call it there. Thank you, thank you for listening. Bye.