#135| Why Being a ‘Good Girl’ Is Holding You Back & How To Finally Let Go of People Pleasing to Beat Overwhelm: Overwhelm, Productivity, Time Management & People Pleasing

Ever felt like saying “no” could cost you love, approval—or even your sense of safety?

If you were raised to be a “good girl” and still find yourself overwhelmed by the need to please others, my conversation with coach Sara Fisk will speak directly to you. It unpacks why people-pleasing feels so hard to break, even when it’s hurting you—and why you’re not alone in that struggle.

In this episode:

• You’ll learn how your early survival instincts wired you for people-pleasing—and how to begin rewiring.
• You'll discover the subtle but powerful difference between conscious compromise and self-abandonment.
• You'll get practical, low-stakes strategies to start building the emotional muscle of saying “no” without guilt.

Press play now to learn how to stop abandoning yourself and start honoring your own voice—one small, courageous choice at a time.

Featured on the podcast

The Ex-Good Girl Podcast
Sara Fisk Coaching
Stop People Pleasing Facebook group
Connect with Sara on Instagram

Send Me a Message - Have a question, comment, or just want to say hi? Message me here, I'd love to chat!

Work With Me - Interested in working with me 1-on-1, taking a class, or joining one of my coaching groups? Message me here to get the scoop.

Want More? - If you love the content of this podcast, you'll love our Simple Sunday newsletter too. When you sign up, you’ll receive a simple dose of inspiration, practical tips, and a little fun—designed to help you start your week with simplicity and intention. Sign up here

Life can be overwhelming, but on this podcast, you'll discover practical strategies to overcome overwhelm, imposter syndrome, and negative self-talk, manage time effectively, set boundaries, and stay productive in high-stress jobs—all while learning how to say no and prioritize self-care on the Overwhelmed Working Woman podcast.

Thank you for listening! If you love the podcast, please subscribe and leave a review. 💗

Chapters

• 3:51 How People-Pleasing Begins
• 8:25 Two Kinds of Discomfort
• 14:42 Self-Abandonment
• 19:42 Building the Muscle of Saying No

Transcript

Sara Fisk: 0:00

I was a 40-year-old woman who was still going to church because I was afraid of disappointing my parents.

Michelle Gauthier: 0:10

You're listening to Overwhelmed Working Woman, the podcast that helps you be more calm and more productive by doing less. I'm your host, Michelle Gauthier, a former Overwhelmed Working Woman and current life coach. On this show, we unpack the stress and pressure that today's working woman experiences and in each episode you'll get a strategy to bring more calm, ease and relaxation to your life. Hi, friend, thanks for joining today. This is going to be a great episode about one of my favorite topics, which is people-pleasing. Today I'm talking to Sara Fisk, who is the host of the Ex-Good Girl podcast. I absolutely love the name of that podcast, isn't it great? Because, basically, if you're a good girl quote-unquote you're sort of forced to be a people-pleaser by society. Today, when you listen, you're going to learn some new information about people-pleasing why people-pleasing feels so familiar and comfortable, and how that keeps you stuck, how to stop abandoning your own needs. I think that is such a good way to explain exactly what we do when we people please. We just abandon what we actually need for what other people want. And, finally, a simple strategy that's geared toward building the muscle of saying no without the guilt part. Just a reminder that April is our celebration month for the two-year anniversary of Overwhelmed Working Woman and I am still collecting voice memos from listeners, where you tell me your name and where you're from your favorite part about the podcast and then you ask me a question. I have received so many great questions so far, but there are so many more that could be asked, so the link is in the show notes. It's really easy you just click on a button, speak, you have a chance to redo it if you don't like it and then submit it to me. I would love to hear from you. Also.

Michelle Gauthier: 1:57

Before we get into the episode, I want to tell you when you listen to this interview, you might notice that my audio is kind of terrible. Sarah's sounds great, but something was wrong with my microphone and I didn't know it and I did the whole interview and the interview is so good that I didn't want to not use this recording. So we have edited it to the best of our ability, but if it sounds kind of crappy, that is why I had to really embrace and practice what I preach. We love to do A plus work, but sometimes we have to do B minus work and just live with that because we got it done. So I'm putting this podcast into the A plus content but B minus on my audio.

Michelle Gauthier: 2:35

Thanks for hanging in there with me. Hey, Sara, thanks for joining us today. Great to have you. Oh, I'm so glad to be here. I'm excited to have you because you're an expert on people-pleasing. We talk about people-pleasing a lot on this podcast One of my favorite topics, because I used to be excellent at it, me too. Yeah, tell us a little bit about your story and how you were an ex-good girl. That's the name of your podcast, correct, that's?

Sara Fisk: 3:05

it. Yeah, it's the Ex-Good Girl Podcast. And here's what's funny is that even before I started doing that podcast, I thought of the name, and the name sounded so scandalous to me it took me a whole year to like really own it. That that was what I wanted to name my podcast, which just indicate how deeply I was invested in people thinking I was a good girl, because if I'm going to call myself the ex-good girl, then that means something right. It implies something yeah, totally, totally.

Michelle Gauthier: 3:42

Oh my gosh. Well, tell us how you got here, Like how did you get to be a good girl and how did you get to be an ex good girl?

Sara Fisk: 3:51

Well, all of us. If you are socialized as a woman, you are a good girl. You have been taught that there are certain rules that you need to follow so that people think you are kind and good and nice and sweet. And it's even a little more complex than that because, if you want to get to like how we all become people pleasers if we zoom way out, every single human that comes into this world is utterly dependent on the big people in their lives, and it is a survival technique that every baby is born with that they have to win the care and affection of those bigger, more capable humans, otherwise they die. And so babies cry and they see that somebody comes and helps them, and that's the first kind of connection that is made in a baby's brain. Is that, oh, I cry and something happens. And so they keep doing that and realize, oh, I like this, like snuggle that I get, I like my diaper being changed, I like being fed. And then they keep growing and they realize that there are more things that they can do to win more care and affection.

Sara Fisk: 5:14

I have five kids, I think. Do you have children as well? Yes, I have two kids, okay, so when they were little and they started smiling back at you. What did you do?

Michelle Gauthier: 5:23

Yeah, smiled and gave them everything they wanted. Oh my gosh, they're so cute.

Sara Fisk: 5:29

Right. And then they get more hugs and more snuggles, and so that connection is made oh, they like that, they like that. And I get a positive response. And so baby smiles more and learns to wave and learns to say hi and learns to say mommy and daddy. And then they start collecting information on the opposite side of that, which is oh, there are some things I do that they don't like.

Sara Fisk: 5:51

I remember sitting with my daughter on a chair and she was playing around with her hands and kind of testing the limits, and she slapped my face and I grabbed her hand and I pushed her away from my body and I said no, and she could tell by the tone of my voice and how my eyebrows went down and how I, like, physically removed her from me, that I didn't like that. And of course she dissolves into tears and cries and cries and cries because she has now been punished for something that she didn't know, she hadn't made the connection yet that that was quote unquote bad. And so we grow up collecting all of that information. This is what they like, this is what gets me rewarded and this is what they don't like, this is what gets me punished, and for the first part of our life that is appropriate. That's what we have to do to ensure that we have the care and affection of those big people.

Sara Fisk: 6:47

The problem is, as we grow, we can take better care of ourselves. We become adults, we have our own preferences, we have our own desires that we want for our own lives, but no one ever teaches us how to not people please. And that is kind of where I come in, because I was very invested in being liked, in my parents being proud of me in doing the things that would make my community think that I was smart and capable and hopeful, and a lot of this played out for me in my religious organization. I was raised in a very conservative religious denomination and leaving was seen as something really bad. And so it's. I say it kind of is a joke, but it's kind of not a joke. I was a 40 year old woman who was still going to church because I was afraid of disappointing my parents.

Michelle Gauthier: 7:45

Yeah, oh, my gosh, and that does not even sound funny to me. I'm like, oh, and that does not even sound funny to me. I'm like, oh, absolutely. I mean, even after all this work, to not be a people pleaser anymore. If I had to do something, that would definitely make my parents disappointed. It would still cause me a lot of pain, Like that's the last thing to fall for me, for sure.

Sara Fisk: 8:04

Yeah, for a lot of people, it is because those are the big people that you most depended on.

Michelle Gauthier: 8:10

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. That's so interesting. Okay, so how do you help people get out of people pleasing, like, what are the tips or strategies that you use to help them stop people pleasing?

Sara Fisk: 8:25

If we boil people pleasing down to its most basic components, they are these: People-pleasing is uncomfortable. When I was going to church and listening to things I no longer agreed with giving my time to an organization that I no longer felt aligned with my values, giving my money to an organization that I no longer felt aligned with my values, I felt trapped, I felt stuck, I felt angry, I felt resentful, I felt anxious, I felt fearful, right. But those emotions are familiar to me, right, as as women who are taught to people, please, we know all about resentment, please, we know all about resentment. We know all about dread, right, and, and fear and anxiety, because those are the emotions that come up when you self abandon over and over and over for other people, but they're comfortable and they're known.

Michelle Gauthier: 9:21

Yes, oh, my gosh, I have to have you pause just for a second. I love the idea of. I don't love the idea. I love the term self-abandoned. Tell me what you mean by that.

Sara Fisk: 9:32

It's when you want something different than I want and I choose you and I abandon myself without thinking.

Michelle Gauthier: 9:42

Oh my gosh, I'm totally taking that away. That is such a great term and just way to think about it, I'm going to abandon myself and I'm going to jump on board with you, just leave myself behind my thoughts, my feelings, whatever. Okay, yeah, that's great.

Sara Fisk: 9:58

And if we have time I want to come back to that because it matters in healthy, connected, loving relationships that we do choose the other person sometimes. But there's a specific way to do it where it's not people pleasing and it's not self-abandonment. So hopefully we can come back to that. But getting back to like boiling people pleasing down to its basic components so people pleasing is uncomfortable, but it's the known discomfort, not people pleasing is also highly uncomfortable because now I'm afraid of what people are going to think of me. I am worried about what somebody who is disappointed in me is going to think and feel. I am scared in a different, new way. But this not people pleasing fear and discomfort and anxiety is actually feeling. That is what allows me to have new freedom, new self-awareness, new self-connection and it moves me in the direction of becoming my own sovereign person. Mm, hmm, mm, hmm. And so when you boil people pleasing down to its basic components, you just say different words and feel different discomfort.

Michelle Gauthier: 11:18

Uh-huh. Yes, but it's not like one is easy and one is hard. Like they're both just two different kinds of uncomfortable. I love that.

Sara Fisk: 11:27

That's right.

Michelle Gauthier: 11:27

I love that, and I think our brain easily confuses discomfort and comfort and thinks that when something feels familiar, that it's comfortable and it's like that comfortable, oh, absolutely, people please. But it feels so familiar that it's like I don't know, like wearing a really uncomfortable sweater but wearing it every day and being like, oh, oh, I'm just going to put on this sweater, even though it's itchy and I hate it. Yeah, I know what this sweater feels like. Yeah, exactly, I know exactly how I'm going to feel all day when I'm wearing this sweater. That's making me itchy just thinking about it. Ok, I love that. Those are great points. Can we go back to how to self-abandon?

Sara Fisk: 12:09

in a good way. The most important feelings for humans are safety, connection and dignity. Oh, dignity, we have to have those things, okay, and that's why when you hurt someone's dignity by shaming them, they react in kind of such, you know, volatile ways or they withdraw. It's really essential that we feel that we are safe, that we have places where we are connected, where we belong, and that we are worthy of dignity, and so everything we do as humans is to get those things for ourselves safety, connection and dignity. So when we think about not people pleasing it can threaten our safety, because, on a very basic kind of tribal emotion, biology programming level, we need to be part of groups, we need to be accepted in communities, in families, in organizations. I mean, I have so much sympathy when it felt like I was going to disappoint, sympathy when it felt like I was going to disappoint my parents, it felt like I was going to die, and so many people listening to this can probably identify with that emotion of like wanting to disappoint someone else because that's what's best for me, but not being able to do it because the emotion is just so big, and so I have so much empathy for that.

Sara Fisk: 13:39

And so when we're talking about self-abandoning.

Sara Fisk: 13:42

One of the things that we have to recognize is that we self-abandon so that we can belong in groups, and sometimes that is normal, appropriate, good behavior.

Sara Fisk: 13:57

For example, if I'm in a group of people who are LGBTQ, let's say, I want to abandon my homophobic stances on things so that I can agree, so that I can be safe, so that I can expand my vision of what it's like to have a human experience that's different from my own.

Sara Fisk: 14:22

So this idea of self-abandonment isn't good or bad. It just depends on how it feels to you to do it and where you use it as a tool for safety, connection and where you use it as a tool for safety, connection and dignity. So if you and I are in a relationship, if you and I are and we want to take our relationship to a place of more connection and safety, I want to know what's important to you and I want you to know what's important to me, and I want to be able to respond to that and reciprocate, because that is what form connected, vulnerable, healthy relationships is. I adjust based on what you want and need, and sometimes you adjust based on what I want and need, but here's the difference that is critical. If I am adjusting in ways that I don't consciously know where I don't like my reasons for doing it, that's people pleasing.

Michelle Gauthier: 15:31

Yeah, that makes sense. So, if you're like I'm just thinking, I went to this charity event last weekend and it was a charity that was talking about it was for kids to go after school to this gym to work out, and they were talking about how the parents of those children are often able to give their kids physical safety, food safety, you know, providing them with the right nutrition, food safety, you know, providing them with the right nutrition, all those things. And I really literally had to like get myself to that place and think I am so lucky that I have never had to worry that my kids aren't going to be safe at home, you know, and so like getting into that mindset and being in the mindset of everybody who was there so that I could like be part of that and support that group. Is that an example of where I? It was like a new way of thinking for me, but it wasn't against my beliefs. It was just like empathy and understanding of a different perspective.

Sara Fisk: 16:31

That's it. That's it, and, and sometimes it even can go beyond that. Let me give you an example from my personal life. So my grandmother was 96 when she passed away almost two years ago, and my daughter is gay.

Sara Fisk: 16:50

And when she came out, one of the things that she asked me is do you think I should tell grandma? And I was like, well, let's talk that through, because her ability to understand this, her ability to adjust to it, her ability to kind of make sense of that with her worldview, is limited. And also, daughter, you get to be who you want to be and you get to tell whoever you want to tell that you feel safe with. And so we investigated her reasons for telling her and for not telling her, and she decided on her own that that was not something that she wanted to share because of her perception of the limitations. And so from the outside that might look like people pleasing. You're not telling your grandma that you're gay, you're not living your highest, most authentic truth, and I can understand that. But the reason that it wasn't people pleasing is because she had made it a conscious exercise to go through her reasons for either sharing that or not and she had made a choice that she was happy with.

Michelle Gauthier: 18:01

Yeah, I think that's great.

Michelle Gauthier: 18:02

That is, it's a big difference, and I think it's a huge a lot of times people can't see the difference between those from the outside, but when it's you, you know it. I feel like you can tell when you're in alignment with the choices that you're making and, to your point, as long as you know your reasons and you like your reasons, nobody else's opinion matters. That's where the pleasing doesn't happen. So if somebody said that's exactly taller, if you're going to be your most authentic self, and she could just be like nope, I'm not going to do it, I like my reasons, they're OK with me and I am willing to stand by my reason, and so not people.

Sara Fisk: 18:41

Pleasing is all about knowing your reasons, liking them and then being willing to feel the uncomfortable emotion of taking the step to not people, please.

Michelle Gauthier: 18:56

Yeah, yes, exactly, I absolutely love it. Something I talk about a lot, which is sort of like at the end of people pleasing is saying no, but those two are very tied together and I think it really is just a muscle, like when I started going to this gym where I go now, I couldn't do a single pushup. The other day I did a whole bunch of pushups. I was like, wow, that was hard but it wasn't impossible. And that's how I feel about saying no. I can totally say no now. Yes, it used to cause me a 10 out of 10 discomfort, and now it's like a zero or maybe a one, depending on the situation. So for anybody out there who's thinking this all sounds horrible, this is too much. It's going to be so uncomfortable it will be, that's correct, but it's not going to be forever and always super uncomfortable.

Sara Fisk: 19:42

Let me just give one other little tip there. Let me just give one other little tip there. All of us know that there are some situations that feel very risky to not people please, and others that feel less risky. Start with the less risky situations first, because you're literally building a new emotional muscle. None of us are going to walk into the gym and start trying to do bicep curls with a 25 pound weight, right? If we're going to just continue this little beautiful exercise metaphor we've got going on here, right, we're going to start with maybe five pounds and we're going to do as many reps as we can until we max out there and then we're going to build and go to 10 and then, to you know, up from there.

Sara Fisk: 20:30

But one of the things that I think gets in people's way is that sometimes they opt to not people please. In relationships where there is a lot at stake and it's overwhelming and feels truly terrifying, don't start there. Start with. This is a favorite example for me to share, because the opinions vary wildly. Start with sending food back at a restaurant when you don't like it, right? Yeah, for some people that feels wildly terrifying, other people like, no problem. But if that's scary for you like. Start there. Start with somebody you're never going to see again.

Michelle Gauthier: 21:10

Yeah, I love that. That's so great, great example. Oh my gosh, I'm sure some people that sounds absolutely terrible.

Sara Fisk: 21:19

Yes, yeah, yeah, so find, find something that feels less terrible.

Michelle Gauthier: 21:24

Yeah, yes, that's great. Something I say, too, is just realizing that you are people pleasing, or about to people please, or that you're saying yes when you want to say no, it gives you points in the direction of starting to work that muscle, Like just to say, okay, I didn't send my food back and the reason I didn't is because I didn't want the waitress to not like me. That's exactly it. You're moving in the right direction, you know that's building really critical awareness.

Michelle Gauthier: 21:52

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Well, this has been so interesting. I love your take on people pleasing. I want to ask you two questions that I ask everybody on the show, just to get your perspective on it. So what is something you know overwhelms obviously our favorite topic on here. So what is something you know overwhelms obviously our favorite topic on here. So what is something that you do when you feel overwhelmed that can make you feel better almost right away? Slowing down, okay.

Sara Fisk: 22:19

Tell us what that looks like for you. When I start to feel overwhelmed, it's like the hamster wheel. I just want to go faster and faster and faster, and this actually happened last Saturday. I just want to go faster, and faster and faster, and this actually happened last Saturday. I had a bunch of projects I wanted to get done for the day. They were not going as quickly as I wanted. I couldn't get the help that I was wanting, and so I found myself just kind of frantically going from room to room doing a little bit here and a little bit here and a little bit here, and I was like wait, hey, slow down, calm down, slow down. And then I laid down on the floor in my just like okay, take a break, slow down. And then what's the one thing we're going to do next? Then the one thing after that, because my brain really thinks that doing things faster is the way to get out of the overwhelm, and for me it's the opposite.

Michelle Gauthier: 23:11

It just makes me feel extra stressed and extra like I am just going to combust from the inside out Exactly and it just takes your brain offline, almost like you can't even think straight when you're in that speedy mode like that. I love that that's a great one. And what is something that you do to save yourself time or do less?

Sara Fisk: 23:34

I order my groceries. Oh yes, good one, good one. I went back and forth with this. I am a penny pincher, I'm a deal favor, and I actually did all the math to like what is it to get it delivered? What is it? And it's. I realized that this is this is a point of privilege that I am able to do this, and I don't want to make it sound like I think that everybody can or should do this, but for me, the amount of time that it takes to get in my car, drive down, do all the shopping it's really worth letting someone else do that for me, even if I just want to sit on the couch and rest. I don't love going to the grocery store. Some people do. Then please, by all means, do it. It's not something I love. So finding those things that I don't love and offloading them or stopping doing them is that's been a big thing that I've worked on this year.

Michelle Gauthier: 24:28

That's awesome. I really do think that it saves money too, because you don't buy all the random crap like you make.

Michelle Gauthier: 24:35

That's exactly the meals, you order the things that you actually want, and, yeah, it's much harder to just add some random thing that you're like, oh, I really don't want to eat that, but I'm just going to get these candy bars or whatever it is that you don't really want. Yeah, I love it. I love it. My favorite thing to do. I do it on Sundays, and my favorite thing to do is put in the grocery order and then I take a nap and then when I wake up the groceries are there. I'm like I am winning at life. I just took a nap.

Sara Fisk: 25:06

It's so great, and there's something about not having to go to Costco. I just love it.

Michelle Gauthier: 25:13

I just I don't know if it's just stimulating and I don't like it, or either no, there's nothing about that. I like, and, for people who do like, my ex-husband likes it and he used to always go for us and I was so grateful. So, yeah, when we got divorced, I was like I'm going to find some new solution. I cannot do this, and getting married again seemed harder than ordering yes, oh my gosh.

Sara Fisk: 25:36

A hundred percent that Instacart subscription way easier than finding a man who.

Michelle Gauthier: 25:42

Exactly, exactly, oh my gosh. Okay, so tell people where they can find you. We didn't mention your podcast. Tell us that again, and then anything else you'd like to share and I do workshops every month.

Sara Fisk: 25:55

One free workshop every month, one paid workshop, and by paid I mean like $9, super cheap. Because I really want women to have the fundamental skills that it takes to not people-please. I teach them in those workshops. I also have a free Facebook group called Stop People-Pleasing. I am in there multiple times a week, coaching, sharing things, making sure that people have the next step, because my like secret world vision for all of us women is that we're just free to make whatever choice we want and that we don't carry around the guilt and the heaviness and the burden of people pleasing anymore.

Michelle Gauthier: 26:48

Yes, love that so much. So where should people go if they want to know when those classes are, when those go?

Sara Fisk: 26:55

to the best place to find those is actually, and thank you for asking. On my Instagram page, seraphist Coaching, there's a link in my bio and you can always find the most recent, best information there about what's coming up.

Michelle Gauthier: 27:11

Okay, okay, awesome, great. I need to sign up for one. Those sound great. I'd love to have you. Yeah, okay, great, great, well, thank you so much for being on, and here's cheers to not people pleasing anymore. We did it, thanks.

Sara Fisk: 27:26

Michelle, we did it. Thanks, michelle, we did.

Michelle Gauthier: 27:34

Thank you for listening to the Overwhelmed Working Woman podcast. If you want to learn more about my work, head over to my website at michellegothiercom. See you next week.