Leadership, they say, is a journey, not a destination. My guest, Jeff Mauk, and I open our hearts to discuss the raw, transformative instances that have redefined our approach to leadership, diving into the challenges that test our mettle and the moments of vulnerability that lead to personal growth.
Book referenced during today's episode: https://www.amazon.com/Leadership-Line-New-Preface-Staying/dp/1633692833/ref=sr_1_1?hvadid=580712021956&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9019676&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=1819040778405922400&hvtargid=kwd-324014541834&hydadcr=21902_13324200&keywords=leadership+on+the+line&qid=1704144503&sr=8-1
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Website: https://nickiekrommingahill.com/
*Purchase Nickie's book on Amazon! "Things I'm Thinking About; a Daughter's Thoughts on the Loss of Her Mom"
https://www.amazon.com/Things-Im-Thinking-About-daughters-ebook/dp/B083Z1PWKP?ref_=ast_author_mpb
Join my mailing list here: http://eepurl.com/g5hikj
*For speaking inquiries or for questions or comments on the podcast, contact Nickie at healandgrowwithnickiepodcast@gmail.com
Disclaimer: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal health or professional advice.
Nickie is not responsible for any losses, damages, or liabilities that may arise from the use of this podcast.
This podcast is not intended to replace professional medical advice.
Leadership, they say, is a journey, not a destination. My guest, Jeff Mauk, and I open our hearts to discuss the raw, transformative instances that have redefined our approach to leadership, diving into the challenges that test our mettle and the moments of vulnerability that lead to personal growth.
Book referenced during today's episode: https://www.amazon.com/Leadership-Line-New-Preface-Staying/dp/1633692833/ref=sr_1_1?hvadid=580712021956&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9019676&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=1819040778405922400&hvtargid=kwd-324014541834&hydadcr=21902_13324200&keywords=leadership+on+the+line&qid=1704144503&sr=8-1
Buy Me A Coffee: https://buymeacoffee.com/nickiekh
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/healandgrowwithnickie/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/healandgrowwithnickie/
Website: https://nickiekrommingahill.com/
*Purchase Nickie's book on Amazon! "Things I'm Thinking About; a Daughter's Thoughts on the Loss of Her Mom"
https://www.amazon.com/Things-Im-Thinking-About-daughters-ebook/dp/B083Z1PWKP?ref_=ast_author_mpb
Join my mailing list here: http://eepurl.com/g5hikj
*For speaking inquiries or for questions or comments on the podcast, contact Nickie at healandgrowwithnickiepodcast@gmail.com
Disclaimer: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal health or professional advice.
Nickie is not responsible for any losses, damages, or liabilities that may arise from the use of this podcast.
This podcast is not intended to replace professional medical advice.
Hello everyone, I am so excited for you to listen to this episode, a conversation with my dear friend, jeff Mock, and I wanted to let you know that Jeff and I got all the way through recording and we realized that we referenced a book and we never mentioned what the book was called. So I'm going to do that now and I'll also link it in the show notes. The book is called Leadership on the Line Staying Alive through the Dangers of Change, and it's by Ronald Heifetz and Marty Linsky, and again, I will put those down in the show links for you.
Speaker 2:Thanks a lot, hey, hey, everyone welcome back to another episode of the Human Grow with Nikki Krumingahill. Here we talk about everything Breathe, hope, illness carc family tragedy possibilities, fun stuff and math.
Speaker 1:Hello.
Speaker 2:Jeff.
Speaker 1:Let's take a look at our lives and work together.
Speaker 1:Yay, I'm so glad Jeff Mock is the director of policy for the East in series state policy program. He leads outreach and engagement with companies and policymakers on the East Coast. Jeff's work includes building partnerships that communicate the economic and societal benefits of sustainable policies, with a focus on climate and energy issues. You're going to have to explain that to the people in just a moment. Jeff grew up in Buffalo, minnesota, and graduated from Gustavus Adolphus College Yay With a bachelor's degree in theater and communications. Hmm, so did I. His career in policy and politics began with jobs at the Minnesota State House of Representatives and staffing statewide political campaigns. He moved to Washington DC in 2014 to take on the role of executive director of the National Caucus of Environmental Legislators. This past spring, jeff earned a master's degree in public administration from the Harvard Kennedy School of Government, and he continues to live in DC. Yes, what a bio, what a bio, hi.
Speaker 2:Hello.
Speaker 1:Hello, I like it. Hello, what do I do? Okay, people, jeff and I are going to explain to you how we know one another. So we met at school. We met at Gustavus.
Speaker 2:In the theater department.
Speaker 1:In the theater department. Did we meet in a class? I feel like. I feel like you tell a story about how we were hanging out on the couch one time. This it's actually, it's still there. There was this little nook in the basement of the theater department where everyone would just hang out, and I'm looking back we were probably so obnoxious I'm sure I was Because we were just like Well, we were a contrast.
Speaker 2:I remember that I was so reserved back then. I really was in a shell and I just was so impressed by you. We're much more gregarious and outgoing. And I was simultaneously drawn to and scared.
Speaker 1:And rebelled. Which is funny because now, however many years later, 30 years later gosh really it truly has been like 28 or 29 years, hasn't it?
Speaker 2:Amazing yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, I feel like I'm a little more reserved than I was and you seem way more outgoing than when I met you.
Speaker 2:I really think I, it is my true nature that I had to discover along the way for sure.
Speaker 1:I love that, yeah, okay. So we met at school. We met doing shows together. We met in theater classes together. We were the only two people our class that had a theater communication degree Isn't that right, there was one more, there was Becky. Oh sorry, becky, I'm sure you're listening, but yeah, there were three of us. What was your minor?
Speaker 2:Music.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah. How did I forget that? I don't know Mine was dance.
Speaker 2:I remember.
Speaker 1:And then well sort of during college, but also after college, jeff and I both worked together at a theme park that's local to Minneapolis, st Paul, called Valley Fair.
Speaker 2:Well, not only did we work there, but you were the one that told me, you were the one that suggested that I work there. I mean completely altering the course of my entire life, nikki, that means you think about pivot points, pivot moments, and I can still remember the conversation we had in the theater department when you said, jeff, you should be a bear.
Speaker 1:You should be. Wow, don't take that out of context, everybody. I meant you should literally be a bear, a baron stain bear, papa bear, papa bear.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah. So the baron stain bears used to be sort of the mascots of Valley Fair, would you say? Yeah, there was a whole land, baron stain bear land, essentially. And in the very first year it was open, I was there, I was sister bear. Can we say that this isn't like Because you know what? Disney? Because at Disney they say I'm friends with a Minnie Mouse, which means that you which we did when we were there.
Speaker 2:we took that very seriously.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're right, we did.
Speaker 2:But now we don't have the same restrictions. We were not Disney. Well, and it's not there anymore so I don't feel too bad. No, we're fine, we're not traumatizing anyone, I hope.
Speaker 1:Oh sorry, I guess there should have done a content warning at the beginning of we have to go back and be like content warning if you have small children in your car, yeah, Okay, yeah. And then the next year I said I think you should audition for this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it never would have occurred to me otherwise. Your validation of that, telling me what a great experience it was, got me to consider it.
Speaker 1:Well, it's interesting because that was Well. A I'm glad you did that, yeah, b you killed and it was awesome. C we have more Valley Fair history that we could talk about. But D for me, that was one of the best acting gigs I think I've ever had. And when I say that, people are like what? Because you have a head on over your head and it has a fixed expression on it. It's not like Disney now, where the characters can move their mouths and things like that. We had no control over our facial expression. Therefore, you had to use the rest of your body to convey your emotion and I think it made me a better actor actually.
Speaker 2:I agree, as well as the improvising, too, that you do with that, because some days you were not in costume but you had to speak for the character and usher them around and you had to just really think a lot about how to make people happy and very quickly assess the situation and figure out how you could make the most of it and make someone's day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, it really was a magical experience, truly looking back, as well, as I think one thing that was really fun was the opportunity to experience being a celebrity, but then it's for 20 minutes at a time and then you're not anymore. You're a doer. People see you, they run towards you, they want your autograph, they want pictures with you and they want hugs and it just fills you up, but then it doesn't go too far to your head because then it's over after your appearance.
Speaker 1:Right, and then you're out of costume and you walk out of the building and the same children that adored you a moment ago have no idea who you are. Yeah, yeah, it really was a special job. I would recommend, if you ever get a chance to do mascot work, try it, and also make sure that there's a human with you, because Because things can go sideways really quickly Right.
Speaker 1:People like to try to take your costume off of you. They come in and push you and like some poor behavior, but not most of the time, I mean most of the time, it was just wonderful, right yeah. So Jeff and I had that experience together. We actually didn't work in bear country at the same time, did we?
Speaker 2:No, no, I did it for two years and then.
Speaker 1:So your first year must have been 1996, because my first year was 1994. Is that?
Speaker 2:right.
Speaker 1:That's right. But to have that so even though we weren't together, to have that sort of same experience was really cool. And then we both were seasonal managers for the entertainment department at Valley Fair. I was there for two years. Were you also there for two years?
Speaker 2:I did one more after you, okay.
Speaker 1:Okay, and that was a really great experience too. I can't really imagine having that experience with anyone besides you.
Speaker 2:It was amazing because we just I don't know if I've ever had a job where we laughed so hard and, you know, cried sometimes too. I mean, it was hard. It was a hard gig, it was challenging, but going through that with you and I mean that's what really, I think, forged a deep friendship here. I agree. When we're just working on that together and building this. We didn't just put on shows. We kind of built up the department to be something it hadn't been before because we loved it so much.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so just a little bit about that, in case anyone is interested.
Speaker 2:And if you're not interested.
Speaker 1:we're going to talk about it anyway. But there was one person who hi, christopher, if you're listening there was one person who was full-time year-round in the entertainment department and then Jeff and I would come on in January, february to go through auditions, because I know the entertainment department at Valley Pairs is very different now than it was when we were there. But we would do like a little audition tour. We'd go to some of the bigger maybe not bigger now, what I mean the more music-driven colleges around the area. I'm not saying the right thing.
Speaker 2:Sure Well schools that had robust musical theater programs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you. We'd go to Chicago, we had this little tour and we would tour around with Chris and I have some of the best memories doing that the three of us in a vehicle, just road tripping so fun. And then we didn't really start the job until maybe March or April. Anyway, we would help cast the shows and get everything going and then, once all the shows were up or running, it was our job to maintain them. And I learned a lot during that time and I think one of the reasons why I got my job that I have right now at Alive and Kicken as a company manager is because is directly because of that Valley Fair job.
Speaker 2:It was an early opportunity for both of us to realize what we could really do as leaders.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and on that. And both of us were performers and so then to have an opportunity to be on the other side of that, I think, made us better performers. But just that's when I realized, oh, there'll be a time where I'm not performing anymore, I can still stay in the business, just doing something else. So that was an amazing time. And then Jeff Moody, california for a while. What did you do in California?
Speaker 2:A little bit of everything. The thing was I didn't really know quite what I wanted to do. I wanted to try a lot of things, and so that's what I did. I did an internship at a production company, I did one at a casting agency.
Speaker 1:Is that the one when Eric Lissau was?
Speaker 2:do you guys?
Speaker 1:remember Eric Lissau. I remember him from coming to America.
Speaker 2:Yes, it was his production company.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Man and I did some extra work on some TV shows. I did a character supervision at Universal Studios Hollywood theme park. I tried a lot of things. I even rented cars to people at Enterprise Rent-A-Car.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, I forgot about that, yeah.
Speaker 2:And actually learned a lot from that.
Speaker 2:It's a pretty amazing training program they have. But so I tried a lot, just realized, you know what, I didn't want to do any of it. I had some great adventures, but I was spending a lot of time. You'd be on set and you had a lot of time before you would go on as an extra. So I started reading the newspaper a lot and getting caught up in the news and really feeling passionate about what was going on, and it was right around that time as well that I was an extra. On the West Wing was my favorite.
Speaker 2:TV show all about the presidency, and when I was younger I had never seen a place for myself in the political world. It didn't occur to me that there was something there for me, and actually that show was kind of this bridge, where it was entertainment. But I saw, oh, the people, these characters. That's kind of what I want to be doing. That's really exciting to me. That's where my passion is, and so I came back to Minnesota then to get into this whole policy and politics world.
Speaker 1:Okay, that was an amazing segue. Clap clapping, clap clapping. That's me not actually clapping, but just telling you that I would be what? Why don't I just do it?
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you, yeah, it's no problem, no problem.
Speaker 1:So tell us about either or both your job in Minnesota and then the job that you had, what you have now.
Speaker 2:Well, I was really fortunate that I was able to get in at the House of Representatives at the very lowest level. I was a 30 year old house page, which meant I delivered messages and staffed committees and passed out bills to legislators. But it was amazing, I got to be right on the house floor. This beautiful chamber that we have. If you haven't seen it, please take a tour of the Minnesota State Capitol. I've been to many state capitals and we have truly one of the best.
Speaker 1:I've never taken a tour, so it's on my list, it's beautiful, beautiful marble from all over.
Speaker 2:It's spectacular.
Speaker 1:The only time I've really been to the Capitol was I can't remember the year, it was a 2014 where we were hoping to pass the vote. No.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah 2010. Oh wait, no, 2012, because they, the new majority, came in in 2010. Okay, that was one of the first things they did was try to put the anti-marriage equality measure. And so then it was in 2012 was the election, where we fought it and had rallies at the Capitol.
Speaker 1:Okay, yes, so that's the only time I've ever even stepped foot in the Capitol and it was lovely, but it was but yes, but it was, it was awesome. I ended up hanging out with you and you know our friend Bradley from Gustavus and other people, and I was with my mom and and I was like, oh, this is, it's really pretty here. I should come back when there's not so many people, Okay, Anyway, I digress. So you started out as a page.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, and I still remember one of those early moments where I just was standing there and there was a debate going on about whatever issue of the day and I was just looking at the faces of these legislators in this beautiful chamber and it just felt like lightning struck me. It just felt like oh, this is it. I've been searching my whole life and bouncing around trying to figure out what is my mission and this is it. I love this, and I've finally found my path.
Speaker 1:And I love that I'm tearing up because I don't I don't know that I've ever knew like what, what was the moment for you to to decide to stay in politics?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was just early on. It just felt so right and I needed that. I needed to. There were so many lessons I needed to explore and other things and I always gained something from each of those experiences but and they probably helped me then when I did find the right thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I had a lot of wisdom, I think, to bring to that.
Speaker 1:So then you moved to DC. I'm jumping ahead, but like you're moving to DC and you become the executive director, yes, it was one of those things I I wasn't expecting to leave Minneapolis again. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I was working remotely for this organization that was based in DC and the executive director quit and I had to do it. I I just felt like this was an opportunity. I couldn't turn down and I was a little bit scared. I thought DC was going to be way too intense for me, way too much, and I had been really worried about making that step. And then it ended up being just the most wonderful thing that could have happened to me. It was just the best opportunity.
Speaker 1:We were just talking before we started recording about about DC. I came to visit you probably four or five years ago now and not. I just wanted to visit Jeff. That's why I was going out there. I had no interest in going to DC. I I don't know what I thought it was going to be, but it was nothing like that. If you have not been to DC, make a trip. It's beautiful, it's completely doable, it's walkable. You can like look to your right and there's a historical monument, and then you look to your left and there's Starbucks and I don't know. It's just. I never even thought that it was a livable city and I was absolutely wrong about that. I mean, it's just so super cool. Okay, sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 1:I just need to do my little plug for DC.
Speaker 2:I love it. It's, like you say, just incredibly walkable. It is something that I love, and there's beautiful architecture all around you and it's very lively. A lot of people come to work there from all over the country, all over the world, and so it's just really neat. Melting, melting pot too, and a lot of young people, a lot of nightlife. It's just it's really not what people expect if they haven't visited yet.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just I can't wait to go back. Who knows when that's going to be. I want to go in. The cherry blossoms are in bloom, just like the rest of the world probably shows up then.
Speaker 2:It's incredible. It gets very busy, but for a very good reason.
Speaker 1:So Tell us about the work you were doing. We got a lot to cover, but what kind of work were you doing?
Speaker 2:So, as the executive director of the National Caucus of Environmental Legislators, we had a very small staff and our mission was to connect and assist state legislators who were working on environmental issues all over the country. We saw the power that could happen when they could coach each other. So many organizations, companies, will spend huge amounts of money on lobbyists to go meet with legislators and just try to coerce them or just try to convince them to vote a certain way on something, and we realized the power in creating a community of people that could coach each other, that could exchange ideas, that could decide to work together on issues in different states at the same time, and so we were really this hub, this connector for all these people all over the country.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you were there for a while.
Speaker 2:Yes, I was. Yeah, I started in 2014. Well, I started this job as executive director 2014 and then oh gosh yeah. So almost 10 years ago yeah.
Speaker 1:Mac on ILO as a kid, and then you make this decision to try something else, to be vague, tell us about that.
Speaker 2:I had heard from some people, including the person who helped me get in at the Minnesota House of Representatives. It was then, at the time, speaker of the house, margaret Anderson Keller. Her had gone to Gustavus.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Someone I very much looked up to as a role model and she had mentioned how she had gone to Harvard for this mid-career master's of public administration degree. And this was years ago. I'd heard about this and this kind of little nugget just stuck in the back of my head this mid-career because I wanted to go to grad school at some point, but early on I didn't know what to study, so it would have been a waste. And here I am, like now I'm in my 40s, is it? You know you're wondering, is that even a possibility anymore? And here's this program that allows you to just be gone for two semesters full time, be immersive, you know, get this whole experience and then you're back out in the workforce again.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:And so it stuck in the back of my mind. It stuck in the back of my mind and then, coming out of the pandemic, we had grown the staff and I was feeling like, yeah, the organization could go on without me in charge of it. And so I thought maybe this is the time to give this a shot. And I applied and just I still remember I was in a Zoom meeting in my office. A glance over and I'd seen an email come in in March of 2022, I guess it was and I just I was. So I had to, like, hide my excitement. I was so excited I clicked and I saw that I got in.
Speaker 2:Oh thank God, it was just one of the most wonderful things that could have happened to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what was the application process like?
Speaker 2:Any essays, really, and, amazingly enough, I didn't even have to take a test, like, yeah, it was really interesting, because they were very interested in your narrative. They wanted to know what was your leadership journey, because at the Kennedy School it's the John F Kennedy School of Government is that this particular graduate school there very focused on leadership, very focused on growing people as people? And so they want to know, like, are you really committed to service? You know, and so that's what a lot of these essays focused on.
Speaker 2:They want to say like tell us how you you are contributing and want to contribute to the world.
Speaker 1:Did undergraduate grades factor in at all? Did you have to send in a transcript?
Speaker 2:I did.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:My grades weren't terrible, they weren't amazing.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But I don't know if I don't think that was as big a factor for them as what people, because, especially this was a mid-career program, they wanted to know what was the trajectory of your career.
Speaker 1:I love that, wow yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:So you pack, you know, you pack up your life in DC. For how long is? Two semesters, Seven months, eight months.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, and then including, there was a summer program for us too, so it became closer to nine, because they had to teach us how to be students again. We were all these people that had been out most of us had been out of school for so long that we really had to knuckle down and it was this kind of slowly over five weeks, like teaching us how to get being studying and get good reading habits and all that going again.
Speaker 1:That is so smart that they did that.
Speaker 2:It was. It was it felt like being at camp.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it was a neat thing because my cohort there were 250 of us and in that time we had the school to ourselves, the Kennedy School. So we had all this chance to get to know each other and bond until before we got to the full school year so that we weren't just kind of pushed into being in classes. We actually had a lot of relationships going into that. So I think that really made the whole year even more special.
Speaker 1:That's brilliant. That's brilliant. I don't think that you and I have talked about that before. If we did, I forgot, which happens a lot, all right. I what I really would love to talk to you about today. I got to see Jeff and over the Thanksgiving break, which sort of prompted this idea today of like let's essentially have that exact same conversation that we had over Thanksgiving, but record it. I would love for you to tell our listeners about I think it was, was it your J term class last so almost a year ago? I would love for you to tell our listeners about that class because, well, as soon as he told me about it, I went out and bought the book. Of course, I haven't read it yet, but like it's, it's, I think it's fascinating. I think the people that listen to this podcast will think it's fascinating. So, yeah, you just go for it and I'll interrupt you.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you. I think I didn't fully know what I was expecting out of graduate school. I thought I was going to learn a lot about policy and kind of get some environmental knowledge that I didn't quite know yet. I thought I was going to learn a lot from the books. One thing that I really wasn't ready for or expecting was just how much, in line with the, the theme of your show, how much I was going to, you know, grow and heal from this experience. You don't go to grad school for that.
Speaker 1:No, you don't.
Speaker 2:But because the Kennedy school is so focused on leadership and service, it's they sort of take on the, the theory like you're on an airplane. They say put your own mask on first before you can help someone else. They take on that very same thought of you know, if you really want to exercise leadership, you've got to start with yourself. You need to lead yourself, but also be aware of your biases. Think about you, know how you need to grow, think about how you can process your failures so that you can learn from them and and and also then go deeper and think about, like, what caused you to fail in the first place.
Speaker 2:That was really the core of this adaptive leadership course that I took. That was this immersive experience for two weeks, but you took this one class. If people haven't taken a J term before, you take one class for this month and you get full credit for doing it. It's as if you had taken a class all semester long, but it's all day long for these two weeks. And it was this, as I said, immersive experience where the the course really was intended for us to kind of practice exercising leadership as part of it, like with our peers. There are times the professor would just stop talking and it was up to us to kind of lead the room and figure out how we were going to do this without an authority in charge.
Speaker 1:Will you share um? Was did you say on our previous in our previous conversation? Like was it the first day? The second day, the professor just stopped talking and you guys were like what the hell are we supposed to do right now? Or like what tell me about that, that feeling.
Speaker 2:Well, it was really amazing One of the first days of this course this is actually there it was a semester and then the J term, and so it was in the semester ahead of time where you kind of looked more at systems. Before then the J term you look internally, and the first course, the first day, yeah, we didn't know what was going on. The professor he was lecturing a little bit about what is leadership, what are these concepts we're going to talk about, and then he just stopped. And then when people would raise their hand to speak, he wouldn't look at them.
Speaker 2:Sorry, siri, really wanted to chime in there.
Speaker 1:I love it, honestly. I love it when mistakes happen when we're recording, because it just shows everyone Hi, this is, we are real people, so, anyway, don't worry about it.
Speaker 2:No, okay, uh, where was I then?
Speaker 2:Um somebody raised their hand, yeah, and the professor wouldn't look their direction and it was, and it was just so tense you had you felt this ball of tension and everyone around you was tense and we we didn't know what to do. And one person suggested that we um appoint someone to call on someone raising their hands, but then that was shot down. And then there's all these you know like ways people tried to process this and we're freaked out. And at the end the professor came back in and said one of the lessons that you learned today was how much we want authority, how much we we crave authority as people want someone else to tell us how to X, Y, Z, to tell us how to live.
Speaker 2:Exactly and we or not necessarily to to tell us how to live, but at least to provide order. Yeah, Then, what we want? Someone who's going to create that, that structure, and just ensure that that work. We can function as a group.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And um, and they talked a lot about authority as um authorities in agreement authority, we actually we grant people authority to to, you know, to make decisions that we adhere to, it's, and then we expect them to do the things. We expect them to bring order, and if they do or they don't, then they can keep or not keep that position. Wow, yeah, it was a, so that was kind of the start of this whole thing. But, um, yeah, and then we I think that one of the interesting things then this whole concept of adaptive leadership has to do with yeah, like, yeah, what, I'm going to interrupt you.
Speaker 1:What does? What does adaptive Mm-hmm Go ahead? Everybody has been talking about that. Tell us about that. Leadership mean.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, so, and this is one of the questions that In this course, we had to, in order to learn that we were told to find a Case that we had failed, a place in leadership where we had failed, and to examine that and to look at why, and, with a small group and the larger group, to explore what had caused us to Fail. And so many times we there is an adaptive situation. Adaptive challenge is Situation where we don't know. We know there's something that needs to be faced, there's a challenge that has to be faced, but we don't really know what the end result looks like, right, and we don't really know what the steps are to get there, whereas you know as opposed to a technical challenge like building a house you know what the steps are right, you get the materials, you hire the architect, you know the do all these things and you know what it's gonna look like at the end and you know how to get there.
Speaker 2:Yeah and both adaptive and technical. You need leadership, but great analogy but so many times what we. When there's an adaptive challenge, we treat it like a technical one. Hmm, yes and we think oh well, if I just do these steps one, two, three, this will solve this well, you just like, you just blew my mind.
Speaker 1:I'm like oh crap, I've done that for literally everything.
Speaker 2:We all have right because we want there to be simple solutions.
Speaker 2:We want we want order right and and we want to believe that, that that we can find these steps that will just get us to what we need. But when you think of it, you know some of the big adaptive challenges, like addressing racism or Climate change we don't know what the end result looks like, and and we, if this isn't something that you can just you know, have a, you know numbers to guide you, and so that was really the key to this course was to think about how do we face, you know, some of these adaptive challenges and and the Way to they wouldn't even they would say we were not. There's no such thing as a leader. A Person is not a leader because we think of someone. They have charisma, they're a leader, they, they, you know, tell people what to do. But really exercising leadership, by the definition of this course, is helping people solve difficult challenges.
Speaker 1:And helping people solve difficult challenges.
Speaker 2:And so you can do that from a place of Formal authority. Maybe you're the boss that makes decisions, maybe informal authority, maybe you're someone who knows a lot, you're an expert on a situation, so people trust you. Or you might have no authority. You might be the intern, the new intern at a new job, and at each of these levels there's still ways to exercise leadership by helping people understand and and address their challenges.
Speaker 1:I Love this. Did you? Did you know, going into this class, really, what it was gonna be about?
Speaker 2:no, no, well, a little bit like why did you choose it?
Speaker 1:Or was it something where you required to take it?
Speaker 2:It's funny because I thought I've, I've, I managed value fair with Nikki, I don't need another leadership course, come on.
Speaker 1:Well, it's interesting. I'm gonna interject for a second because I'm actually taking a leadership course right now, because a live-in kick in requires it of of the staff which. Thank you, thank you, thank you. But I'll admit, going into that class I was like I have a ton of leadership experience. I'm gonna ace this, not like there's anything to ace, I'm not. There's no quiz or anything like that. He Eric Thuringer is the guy's name. He nipped that in the bud immediately, not not by saying it, but just within the first 20 minutes. I was like I know nothing, I'm just just shut up, be a sponge, you know, but I'm. But I just interjected because it's this happens a lot where we you and I, or just we, the general, we are like I Don't need to go do this thing, I've already done it, I already know how to do it, when really we only know a little bit right, right and in this whole adaptive Framework.
Speaker 2:But there were so many new tools and no, it's funny, I didn't think I needed another course. But then what I heard about this course was that it really changes people, that I heard that he in some way it really Deconstructs you, kind of tears you apart and pulls you back together and and it's hard, but then you're stronger at the end of it. Someone told me this and said I, actually I was. I was telling one of my cohort mates I was saying, well, I don't know if I need to take that course. And they said, jeff, this is one of the signature courses Like this is the reason you come to the Kennedy School. You need to do this.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh and and I'm so glad I got that bit of advice.
Speaker 1:I'm so glad that you listened to that. Speaking of being torn apart, will you please share the story of how you were questioned essentially by your professor? Jeff told me the story back in and during Thanksgiving, so now I'm trying to remember the details to spark, to spark a memory. But you were essentially chosen to be in the hot seat.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Will you explain what that process was like for you and what? What? What that means by me saying you're in the hot seat?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, one of the things that one of the the lessons from the course is the value of being vulnerable and.
Speaker 2:One thing I learned about myself over the course of this was to realize just how I've been very unwilling, very afraid to be vulnerable and and also kind of very defensive and let things be Hurtful when they actually weren't meant to be hurtful. Yeah, you know, I let I let myself take things personally that weren't about me, and and then of course, that then got in the way of exercising leadership or really just in the way of a lot of relationships in general, and and it also kind of prevented me from learning from past failures too, when you kind of let things become too personal. So I this was really a lesson I wanted to dive in and practice vulnerability in this course, and we in our small groups, we were discussing our failures and and and then we would, you know, each day we would take up one person's case and the rest of us in the group would help them kind of examine that and examine how they, what caused them to fail? What? Where did they learn this behavior that?
Speaker 2:Cool well, and it's very rooted in psychology, the. You know the. The professor had studied psychology, and so Then, when we would come back together at the end of the day, then as the large group over a hundred people in this class Then one person would get randomly selected to have their case Exowned by the professor in front of the whole god.
Speaker 1:Oh god, so how did it? Was that? Just like pull the name out of a hat or a scrabble tile scrabble tile. Okay, okay, okay. Sorry, I keep going. I'm getting nervous like just listening.
Speaker 2:Oh man, it was a just this pit in my stomach because it was me and I thought, oh man, here we go, and I was. I just said, well, I'm gonna learn how to do this, and and and. The course was so amazing because another piece of this was Sometimes you to help people see what they don't want to see, you need to make them feel a little uncomfortable.
Speaker 2:You need to raise the heat a little bit, and that's what happened. Like being here's really kind of raised, raised my consciousness a little bit, raised my anxiety, but also like put me in a space to Explore a little bit more.
Speaker 2:Yeah and so, and and the professor asked me some very pointed questions about the, the case I'd chosen, that I had failed on, and. And then asked me okay, where did you learn this? And and asked me like what you know, where, where was this behavior? Where'd this come from? At what point in your life? Who gave this to you? And doing this in front of this hundred people? And realizing I can do this, I don't, I don't have to be afraid to share these, these some painful things with people. Actually, they might even benefit from from me sharing yes, and that was a huge breakthrough for me yeah as well as yeah. So that's that was that experience. Then, like just, and by the end of it, I felt it was totally destabilizing and yet so beneficial for for going through that process.
Speaker 1:Wow, Wow. I'm sure when you were done you're like I would go to a nap, because time is sleep for a while.
Speaker 2:Well, that's exactly it at the end of the day. And then at the end of the course, after two weeks of this, I had a book to trip to go to Florida, for there was a week off Until the spring semester and I canceled my trip and I just stayed in and I kind of did some journaling and reflecting and I just kind of Went away for a little or just stayed in for a little while to just kind of read.
Speaker 1:You know, good process, everything that right and sort of just decompressing come down from that, because it sounds incredibly Beneficial, like I'm like is to see, do an online course. I want to do it, but to be in that intense of a situation, yeah day after day talking about some really major things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and and for some of you well, for all of you but you had to do this in front of everybody, just like Opening up your entire heart and bringing on some walls in order to fully participate Sounds absolutely incredible and exhausting and exploring traumas together, to write and and, in some ways, learning that you couldn't speak about your traumas and you don't have to be afraid to do that.
Speaker 2:That actually, when you're, when you can say things, when you can share things about yourself, you're helping other people find similar, you're making connections through something similar. Yes, and you're also, you know, taking away some of the stigma about talking about some of these things that we are Unnecessarily afraid to talk about right, right, which is one of the reasons why I like to do this podcast.
Speaker 1:You know is just, even though it's painful, when we I'll admit, jeff, like Jeff and I have been friends for how long? 20 some years. But I walked away from our breakfast together or in November, feeling like I knew you better than I ever have. And and there was. I don't know how to explain it because I I've never felt that you've been Carrying along like some extra luggage. I've never felt that around you. And yet when we left breakfast I was like he just seems more at peace. Then I've seen you seem more at peace than I've seen you maybe ever, and Perhaps that has to do with this class. Maybe it's just cuz.
Speaker 1:You know you're from Hava now. I know you have a new job now, but I'm just really for the lack of sounding like I'm babying you. I'm really proud of you for doing some really hard work. Yeah, so are you able to tell us anything specific about you, know, and obviously whatever you're comfortable with, but, like, what parts of you have healed in the past year? What have you been working on that? Maybe you had said, no, I'm not going down that road, but now you are going down that road Like how you're different, now how? Why?
Speaker 2:I think so much. I attribute to this class, as well as the whole year, being able to step away and reflect what an incredible gift that was.
Speaker 2:I was able to do that and kind of be guided through some of these reflections too and to think about so many of these things. But for me, about myself, we started the conversation talking about me being in this shell. Yeah, and it's. I realized just how much I had learned from you know from my childhood, from you know what had been modeled to me to always try to please other people and to really think about. You know my identity and how I always wanted to present a certain way. I wanted people to like me and I wanted to say the right thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I wanted to be really careful about what I said, so I would say the right thing, so I could please everyone. And that's where the shell came from. As well. As you know, being in the closet when I was young and having, you know, hiding all that away, always like feeling I had to present and I didn't want to burden people, I didn't want to be a burden on people, I didn't want to ask for help, I had to take it all on myself. Yeah, and these were all things that have caused me to fail in different ways over the years and as well as sometimes succeed, you know, and so that's the thing, too, that you want to be mindful of. You know what you want to keep and what you want to leave behind.
Speaker 1:Right, because the acting career can certainly come in handy. Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Oh, I think I mean side note. Studying theater and acting was a huge boon for everything else I did, because they teach you to do it, because they teach you to be more in connection with yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But for me, and then you know when I like in this, over the course, when I was doing my deep reflection and speaking to my mom, you know, I found out how much of what I had learned had been passed on to me from past generations.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And how I was carrying these waters from past generations. Very sadly, when my mom was a teenager, her dad had died by suicide. And when I look back and think of you know, and she's, she's so loving. She is one of the she's the best person I know my mom's so sweet Hi team but also very much what I've described in myself is what I learned from her.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:Is to, you know, take everything on and don't be a burden and don't talk to people.
Speaker 2:And when I stopped and thought about, really put myself in her shoes, the 16 year old, my mom's shoes, and suddenly, like she had just gotten her driver's license, she was the one in the family who had to take care of everything.
Speaker 2:She became the mom of the family back then and had to take it all on the small town where there was going to be the stigma and shame. You can't talk about what happened. And when I really stopped and let myself just absorb that and think about that and think about how you know what shaped her to be what she became and then passed on to me, I just sat and I cried. I was like by a fireplace, journaling on my computer and I just sat there and just tears just dripped down my face for an hour, yeah. And then when I realized so many times I wasn't even consciously fully aware of the times that I let myself be defensive or hold back or let things, like I said earlier, to take things really personally, like if someone bumps into you and I think, oh, they were a jerk to me.
Speaker 1:Right, when really they just accidentally bumped into you.
Speaker 2:It had nothing to do with me.
Speaker 1:They don't know who I am.
Speaker 2:That's not some slight against my identity, right? But a little, in a small way, and in so many small little ways, I look back and realize how much I let that happen, yeah, how much I let myself be offended by something that had nothing to do with me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's major, jeff. Like to have that new perspective, and I told you this when you would share this with me a month ago, but I had no idea that that's how you had been living. So what has your year been like? Just like freedom, or do you just feel happier?
Speaker 2:Freedom is absolutely what it is when you realize how much the decisions that you make are influenced by these things that you weren't aware of. And now you're aware of, and now you can consciously, instead of reacting to something, you can generate curiosity Right, and to know that you have so much more ability to just guide your own thoughts. In moments like that, freedom is the best word for it, and just peace. It's so peaceful to not feel offended all the time by different little things that aren't supposed to offend you.
Speaker 1:Right, I was talking to a girlfriend not too long ago and this was when I was learning, actually getting diagnoses for my health issues instead of just wondering what the hell was wrong. And when I first was diagnosed with fibro and chronic fatigue, I was very angry about it. It wasn't like, oh yay, relief. I am now at a place of relief, but at the time I was just pissed off because I automatically assumed that my journey would be the same as my mom's.
Speaker 1:And a loving friend said to me Nikki, you are not your mom, and for some reason I was not able to get to that point on my own. But when she said it, I thought oh, oh, yeah, I'm not, and you know my or my dad or whatever. You know our parents. I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt right now. Our parents teach us what they think is right. I believe that, at least with my parents and I don't have to follow down the road that they were on I'm on a different road, you know, and your mom was doing the best that she could with the information that she had based on her own experience, which really is all we have, you know. I mean, so I just think about yeah, she, my mom, your mom, my dad, your dad, have made some mistakes, so have we, but they did what they thought was going to be the best thing for us, even if it, even if it wasn't.
Speaker 2:It's true of our parents, and I think you can find a lot of peace when you can really let yourself believe that people, that your parents did the best they can.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But I think beyond your parents, most people, I think, when I think if you can realize that most people are doing the best that they can, then that puts you in a mind frame to be more helpful to them and to make a better world.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, our Lord and Savior, renee Brown tells this story and I'm going to totally botch it and someone's going to be listening to this and they're going to be like that's not how it went. But she tells this story in one of her books that she was really pissed off at the world and was like people suck, everything sucks. And she asked her husband do you think that people are doing the best that they can? And he said I don't know if they're doing the best that they can, but assuming that they are is so much better for him. You know, like assuming the best and other people, which can be really challenging, because sometimes people are doing dumb shit. But you know, when you assume the best in someone, it frees them up. It frees you up. It's just a kinder, more loving way to live. I wish I was living like that all the time, but I'm not.
Speaker 2:Well, and if you truly want to help someone, just stating something, stating an opinion about what they're doing, is not likely going to help them in those situations, you know, but somehow we think that that's how, if we just stamp our feet, like even if you're going to have a political debate with someone or whatever it is, you know, if you just think so many people think they can just stamp their feet and cross their arms and there's. I'm just going to say what I think and I'm right. That means.
Speaker 1:I'm going to win the argument.
Speaker 2:And if we can be more compassionate and approach these situations with curiosity, there you go, you know let's. Let's ask questions that help them get to. That's what's going to have lasting changes when you ask questions that help people get to where they need to be, rather than just try to explain it to them.
Speaker 1:Going into a conversation with the goal of understanding as opposed to the goal of trying to change someone's mind so that they think like I do. Yeah, it's just probably a more loving way to go about living in this world. It's challenging.
Speaker 2:It's very hard because someone might be acting or speaking in a way that is not in not consistent with your values, and so it can be so hard to just sit and listen when that is the case, and in those situations, it's helpful to allow yourself to hold multiple thoughts in your head at the same time. Just because this thoughts in your head and you're listening to it doesn't mean you're agreeing with it, it doesn't mean that you're endorsing it, but it means that it means that you're trying to understand where they are.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that has to be the first step to finding common ground.
Speaker 1:Right and to make change. If that's the goal, right. But finding the common ground is really important, especially in there's so much crap going on.
Speaker 2:But, yes, trying to just understand and start from there and understanding that people want to be heard, people want you to take an interest in them and when you can do that, that's a great gift to someone to really see them and to really ask questions and listen to them, and that's also going to build the trust. Like you say, if you want to make change, or maybe you want to help them see something they don't necessarily want to see right now, you've got to create the space for it first.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, you have to create the space first. I love that. That's absolutely right. That needs to be. I know, I know earlier we said there's no concrete steps to getting to where you need to go, but but honestly, step one could be just just create, create space. I basically think we just solved all the world's problems.
Speaker 2:That's it.
Speaker 1:This, this particular podcast, will probably be going viral, so just prepare yourself.
Speaker 2:I'm excited.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, this is a good time to like wrap it up. I'm so glad that you're that you were willing to talk today. I love that whenever you're in town, you let me know so that I could see you, because I just adore you, me. Have a. I call Jeff. Have a, which really means boss. I also call me Pero. See, see we, when we were doing those Valley fair tours that we were talking to you about earlier. This is sort of one. American Idol is first coming out.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah, and we were like the traveling American Idol, the, basically were we.
Speaker 1:That's exactly what we're doing. We were judging people. I was Simon. I was the biggest judge of them all, you were Randy Jackson, probably, and then Christopher was the sweetest of all of us and he was Paula Abdul. But we all kind of started calling each other dog, because that's that's what they did on the show. That's what Randy Jackson did, which then turned into Pero. So yeah, I have a lot of silly nicknames for you.
Speaker 2:Me too Well, and I always love seeing you, nikki. I always love coming home. This is, this will always be, a home to me in theapolis.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm glad that you feel that way. You know, because you've kind of been everywhere. I'm glad that you, that you still feel like this place is home to you.
Speaker 2:Well, it is because of the loved ones that I have, which includes you.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's so sweet. Okay, everybody, thank you so much for listening. We love you and, as always, thank you for healing and growing with me. Mwah, this podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, health or professional advice. I am not responsible for any losses, damages or liabilities that may arise from the use of this podcast. This podcast is not intended to replace professional medical advice.