Heal & Grow with Nickie
Join your host, Nickie Kromminga Hill, and her guests on a journey of personal stories and insights into healing and growth from past and current trauma. The focus is on fostering true connections through conversations centered around vulnerability and authenticity. The goal is to collectively heal and find opportunities for growth, promoting a sense of togetherness.
Heal & Grow with Nickie
32. A Conversation with Jeff Mauk
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Leadership, they say, is a journey, not a destination. My guest, Jeff Mauk, and I open our hearts to discuss the raw, transformative instances that have redefined our approach to leadership, diving into the challenges that test our mettle and the moments of vulnerability that lead to personal growth.
Book referenced during today's episode: https://www.amazon.com/Leadership-Line-New-Preface-Staying/dp/1633692833/ref=sr_1_1?hvadid=580712021956&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9019676&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=1819040778405922400&hvtargid=kwd-324014541834&hydadcr=21902_13324200&keywords=leadership+on+the+line&qid=1704144503&sr=8-1
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Friendship and Shared Experiences in Theatre
Speaker 1Hello everyone, I am so excited for you to listen to this episode, a conversation with my dear friend, jeff Mock, and I wanted to let you know that Jeff and I got all the way through recording and we realized that we referenced a book and we never mentioned what the book was called. So I'm going to do that now and I'll also link it in the show notes. The book is called Leadership on the Line Staying Alive through the Dangers of Change, and it's by Ronald Heifetz and Marty Linsky, and again, I will put those down in the show links for you.
Speaker 2Thanks a lot, hey, hey, everyone welcome back to another episode of the Human Grow with Nikki Krumingahill. Here we talk about everything Breathe, hope, illness carc family tragedy possibilities, fun stuff and math.
Speaker 1Hello.
Speaker 2Jeff.
Speaker 1Let's take a look at our lives and work together.
Speaker 1Yay, I'm so glad Jeff Mock is the director of policy for the East in series state policy program. He leads outreach and engagement with companies and policymakers on the East Coast. Jeff's work includes building partnerships that communicate the economic and societal benefits of sustainable policies, with a focus on climate and energy issues. You're going to have to explain that to the people in just a moment. Jeff grew up in Buffalo, minnesota, and graduated from Gustavus Adolphus College Yay With a bachelor's degree in theater and communications. Hmm, so did I. His career in policy and politics began with jobs at the Minnesota State House of Representatives and staffing statewide political campaigns. He moved to Washington DC in 2014 to take on the role of executive director of the National Caucus of Environmental Legislators. This past spring, jeff earned a master's degree in public administration from the Harvard Kennedy School of Government, and he continues to live in DC. Yes, what a bio, what a bio, hi.
Speaker 2Hello.
Speaker 1Hello, I like it. Hello, what do I do? Okay, people, jeff and I are going to explain to you how we know one another. So we met at school. We met at Gustavus.
Speaker 2In the theater department.
Speaker 1In the theater department. Did we meet in a class? I feel like. I feel like you tell a story about how we were hanging out on the couch one time. This it's actually, it's still there. There was this little nook in the basement of the theater department where everyone would just hang out, and I'm looking back we were probably so obnoxious I'm sure I was Because we were just like Well, we were a contrast.
Speaker 2I remember that I was so reserved back then. I really was in a shell and I just was so impressed by you. We're much more gregarious and outgoing. And I was simultaneously drawn to and scared.
Speaker 1And rebelled. Which is funny because now, however many years later, 30 years later gosh really it truly has been like 28 or 29 years, hasn't it?
Speaker 2Amazing yeah.
Speaker 1Oh my God, I feel like I'm a little more reserved than I was and you seem way more outgoing than when I met you.
Speaker 2I really think I, it is my true nature that I had to discover along the way for sure.
Speaker 1I love that, yeah, okay. So we met at school. We met doing shows together. We met in theater classes together. We were the only two people our class that had a theater communication degree Isn't that right, there was one more, there was Becky. Oh sorry, becky, I'm sure you're listening, but yeah, there were three of us. What was your minor?
Speaker 2Music.
Speaker 1Oh, yeah, yeah. How did I forget that? I don't know Mine was dance.
Speaker 2I remember.
Speaker 1And then well sort of during college, but also after college, jeff and I both worked together at a theme park that's local to Minneapolis, st Paul, called Valley Fair.
Speaker 2Well, not only did we work there, but you were the one that told me, you were the one that suggested that I work there. I mean completely altering the course of my entire life, nikki, that means you think about pivot points, pivot moments, and I can still remember the conversation we had in the theater department when you said, jeff, you should be a bear.
Speaker 1You should be. Wow, don't take that out of context, everybody. I meant you should literally be a bear, a baron stain bear, papa bear, papa bear.
Speaker 1Yes, yeah. So the baron stain bears used to be sort of the mascots of Valley Fair, would you say? Yeah, there was a whole land, baron stain bear land, essentially. And in the very first year it was open, I was there, I was sister bear. Can we say that this isn't like Because you know what? Disney? Because at Disney they say I'm friends with a Minnie Mouse, which means that you which we did when we were there.
Speaker 2we took that very seriously.
Speaker 1Yeah, you're right, we did.
Speaker 2But now we don't have the same restrictions. We were not Disney. Well, and it's not there anymore so I don't feel too bad. No, we're fine, we're not traumatizing anyone, I hope.
Speaker 1Oh sorry, I guess there should have done a content warning at the beginning of we have to go back and be like content warning if you have small children in your car, yeah, Okay, yeah. And then the next year I said I think you should audition for this.
Speaker 2Yeah, and it never would have occurred to me otherwise. Your validation of that, telling me what a great experience it was, got me to consider it.
Speaker 1Well, it's interesting because that was Well. A I'm glad you did that, yeah, b you killed and it was awesome. C we have more Valley Fair history that we could talk about. But D for me, that was one of the best acting gigs I think I've ever had. And when I say that, people are like what? Because you have a head on over your head and it has a fixed expression on it. It's not like Disney now, where the characters can move their mouths and things like that. We had no control over our facial expression. Therefore, you had to use the rest of your body to convey your emotion and I think it made me a better actor actually.
Speaker 2I agree, as well as the improvising, too, that you do with that, because some days you were not in costume but you had to speak for the character and usher them around and you had to just really think a lot about how to make people happy and very quickly assess the situation and figure out how you could make the most of it and make someone's day.
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean, it really was a magical experience, truly looking back, as well, as I think one thing that was really fun was the opportunity to experience being a celebrity, but then it's for 20 minutes at a time and then you're not anymore. You're a doer. People see you, they run towards you, they want your autograph, they want pictures with you and they want hugs and it just fills you up, but then it doesn't go too far to your head because then it's over after your appearance.
Speaker 1Right, and then you're out of costume and you walk out of the building and the same children that adored you a moment ago have no idea who you are. Yeah, yeah, it really was a special job. I would recommend, if you ever get a chance to do mascot work, try it, and also make sure that there's a human with you, because Because things can go sideways really quickly Right.
Speaker 1People like to try to take your costume off of you. They come in and push you and like some poor behavior, but not most of the time, I mean most of the time, it was just wonderful, right yeah. So Jeff and I had that experience together. We actually didn't work in bear country at the same time, did we?
Speaker 2No, no, I did it for two years and then.
Speaker 1So your first year must have been 1996, because my first year was 1994. Is that?
Speaker 2right.
Speaker 1That's right. But to have that so even though we weren't together, to have that sort of same experience was really cool. And then we both were seasonal managers for the entertainment department at Valley Fair. I was there for two years. Were you also there for two years?
Speaker 2I did one more after you, okay.
Speaker 1Okay, and that was a really great experience too. I can't really imagine having that experience with anyone besides you.
Speaker 2It was amazing because we just I don't know if I've ever had a job where we laughed so hard and, you know, cried sometimes too. I mean, it was hard. It was a hard gig, it was challenging, but going through that with you and I mean that's what really, I think, forged a deep friendship here. I agree. When we're just working on that together and building this. We didn't just put on shows. We kind of built up the department to be something it hadn't been before because we loved it so much.
Speaker 1Yeah, so just a little bit about that, in case anyone is interested.
Speaker 2And if you're not interested.
Speaker 1we're going to talk about it anyway. But there was one person who hi, christopher, if you're listening there was one person who was full-time year-round in the entertainment department and then Jeff and I would come on in January, february to go through auditions, because I know the entertainment department at Valley Pairs is very different now than it was when we were there. But we would do like a little audition tour. We'd go to some of the bigger maybe not bigger now, what I mean the more music-driven colleges around the area. I'm not saying the right thing.
Speaker 2Sure Well schools that had robust musical theater programs.
Speaker 1Yeah, thank you. We'd go to Chicago, we had this little tour and we would tour around with Chris and I have some of the best memories doing that the three of us in a vehicle, just road tripping so fun. And then we didn't really start the job until maybe March or April. Anyway, we would help cast the shows and get everything going and then, once all the shows were up or running, it was our job to maintain them. And I learned a lot during that time and I think one of the reasons why I got my job that I have right now at Alive and Kicken as a company manager is because is directly because of that Valley Fair job.
Speaker 2It was an early opportunity for both of us to realize what we could really do as leaders.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, and on that. And both of us were performers and so then to have an opportunity to be on the other side of that, I think, made us better performers. But just that's when I realized, oh, there'll be a time where I'm not performing anymore, I can still stay in the business, just doing something else. So that was an amazing time. And then Jeff Moody, california for a while. What did you do in California?
Speaker 2A little bit of everything. The thing was I didn't really know quite what I wanted to do. I wanted to try a lot of things, and so that's what I did. I did an internship at a production company, I did one at a casting agency.
Speaker 1Is that the one when Eric Lissau was?
Speaker 2do you guys?
Speaker 1remember Eric Lissau. I remember him from coming to America.
Speaker 2Yes, it was his production company.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Man and I did some extra work on some TV shows. I did a character supervision at Universal Studios Hollywood theme park. I tried a lot of things. I even rented cars to people at Enterprise Rent-A-Car.
Speaker 1Oh my gosh, I forgot about that, yeah.
Speaker 2And actually learned a lot from that.
Speaker 2It's a pretty amazing training program they have. But so I tried a lot, just realized, you know what, I didn't want to do any of it. I had some great adventures, but I was spending a lot of time. You'd be on set and you had a lot of time before you would go on as an extra. So I started reading the newspaper a lot and getting caught up in the news and really feeling passionate about what was going on, and it was right around that time as well that I was an extra. On the West Wing was my favorite.
Speaker 2TV show all about the presidency, and when I was younger I had never seen a place for myself in the political world. It didn't occur to me that there was something there for me, and actually that show was kind of this bridge, where it was entertainment. But I saw, oh, the people, these characters. That's kind of what I want to be doing. That's really exciting to me. That's where my passion is, and so I came back to Minnesota then to get into this whole policy and politics world.
Speaker 1Okay, that was an amazing segue. Clap clapping, clap clapping. That's me not actually clapping, but just telling you that I would be what? Why don't I just do it?
Speaker 2Thank you. Thank you, yeah, it's no problem, no problem.
Speaker 1So tell us about either or both your job in Minnesota and then the job that you had, what you have now.
Speaker 2Well, I was really fortunate that I was able to get in at the House of Representatives at the very lowest level. I was a 30 year old house page, which meant I delivered messages and staffed committees and passed out bills to legislators. But it was amazing, I got to be right on the house floor. This beautiful chamber that we have. If you haven't seen it, please take a tour of the Minnesota State Capitol. I've been to many state capitals and we have truly one of the best.
Speaker 1I've never taken a tour, so it's on my list, it's beautiful, beautiful marble from all over.
Speaker 2It's spectacular.
Speaker 1The only time I've really been to the Capitol was I can't remember the year, it was a 2014 where we were hoping to pass the vote. No.
Speaker 2Yes, yeah 2010. Oh wait, no, 2012, because they, the new majority, came in in 2010. Okay, that was one of the first things they did was try to put the anti-marriage equality measure. And so then it was in 2012 was the election, where we fought it and had rallies at the Capitol.
Speaker 1Okay, yes, so that's the only time I've ever even stepped foot in the Capitol and it was lovely, but it was but yes, but it was, it was awesome. I ended up hanging out with you and you know our friend Bradley from Gustavus and other people, and I was with my mom and and I was like, oh, this is, it's really pretty here. I should come back when there's not so many people, Okay, Anyway, I digress. So you started out as a page.
Speaker 2Yeah Well, and I still remember one of those early moments where I just was standing there and there was a debate going on about whatever issue of the day and I was just looking at the faces of these legislators in this beautiful chamber and it just felt like lightning struck me. It just felt like oh, this is it. I've been searching my whole life and bouncing around trying to figure out what is my mission and this is it. I love this, and I've finally found my path.
Speaker 1And I love that I'm tearing up because I don't I don't know that I've ever knew like what, what was the moment for you to to decide to stay in politics?
Speaker 2Yeah, I was just early on. It just felt so right and I needed that. I needed to. There were so many lessons I needed to explore and other things and I always gained something from each of those experiences but and they probably helped me then when I did find the right thing.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2I had a lot of wisdom, I think, to bring to that.
Speaker 1So then you moved to DC. I'm jumping ahead, but like you're moving to DC and you become the executive director, yes, it was one of those things I I wasn't expecting to leave Minneapolis again. Yeah.
Speaker 2I was working remotely for this organization that was based in DC and the executive director quit and I had to do it. I I just felt like this was an opportunity. I couldn't turn down and I was a little bit scared. I thought DC was going to be way too intense for me, way too much, and I had been really worried about making that step. And then it ended up being just the most wonderful thing that could have happened to me. It was just the best opportunity.
Speaker 1We were just talking before we started recording about about DC. I came to visit you probably four or five years ago now and not. I just wanted to visit Jeff. That's why I was going out there. I had no interest in going to DC. I I don't know what I thought it was going to be, but it was nothing like that. If you have not been to DC, make a trip. It's beautiful, it's completely doable, it's walkable. You can like look to your right and there's a historical monument, and then you look to your left and there's Starbucks and I don't know. It's just. I never even thought that it was a livable city and I was absolutely wrong about that. I mean, it's just so super cool. Okay, sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 1I just need to do my little plug for DC.
Speaker 2I love it. It's, like you say, just incredibly walkable. It is something that I love, and there's beautiful architecture all around you and it's very lively. A lot of people come to work there from all over the country, all over the world, and so it's just really neat. Melting, melting pot too, and a lot of young people, a lot of nightlife. It's just it's really not what people expect if they haven't visited yet.
Speaker 1Yeah, it's just I can't wait to go back. Who knows when that's going to be. I want to go in. The cherry blossoms are in bloom, just like the rest of the world probably shows up then.
Speaker 2It's incredible. It gets very busy, but for a very good reason.
Leadership and Graduate School Experience
Speaker 1So Tell us about the work you were doing. We got a lot to cover, but what kind of work were you doing?
Speaker 2So, as the executive director of the National Caucus of Environmental Legislators, we had a very small staff and our mission was to connect and assist state legislators who were working on environmental issues all over the country. We saw the power that could happen when they could coach each other. So many organizations, companies, will spend huge amounts of money on lobbyists to go meet with legislators and just try to coerce them or just try to convince them to vote a certain way on something, and we realized the power in creating a community of people that could coach each other, that could exchange ideas, that could decide to work together on issues in different states at the same time, and so we were really this hub, this connector for all these people all over the country.
Speaker 1Yeah, and you were there for a while.
Speaker 2Yes, I was. Yeah, I started in 2014. Well, I started this job as executive director 2014 and then oh gosh yeah. So almost 10 years ago yeah.
Speaker 1Mac on ILO as a kid, and then you make this decision to try something else, to be vague, tell us about that.
Speaker 2I had heard from some people, including the person who helped me get in at the Minnesota House of Representatives. It was then, at the time, speaker of the house, margaret Anderson Keller. Her had gone to Gustavus.
Speaker 1Yes.
Speaker 2Someone I very much looked up to as a role model and she had mentioned how she had gone to Harvard for this mid-career master's of public administration degree. And this was years ago. I'd heard about this and this kind of little nugget just stuck in the back of my head this mid-career because I wanted to go to grad school at some point, but early on I didn't know what to study, so it would have been a waste. And here I am, like now I'm in my 40s, is it? You know you're wondering, is that even a possibility anymore? And here's this program that allows you to just be gone for two semesters full time, be immersive, you know, get this whole experience and then you're back out in the workforce again.
Speaker 1Wow.
Speaker 2And so it stuck in the back of my mind. It stuck in the back of my mind and then, coming out of the pandemic, we had grown the staff and I was feeling like, yeah, the organization could go on without me in charge of it. And so I thought maybe this is the time to give this a shot. And I applied and just I still remember I was in a Zoom meeting in my office. A glance over and I'd seen an email come in in March of 2022, I guess it was and I just I was. So I had to, like, hide my excitement. I was so excited I clicked and I saw that I got in.
Speaker 2Oh thank God, it was just one of the most wonderful things that could have happened to me.
Speaker 1Yeah, what was the application process like?
Speaker 2Any essays, really, and, amazingly enough, I didn't even have to take a test, like, yeah, it was really interesting, because they were very interested in your narrative. They wanted to know what was your leadership journey, because at the Kennedy School it's the John F Kennedy School of Government is that this particular graduate school there very focused on leadership, very focused on growing people as people? And so they want to know, like, are you really committed to service? You know, and so that's what a lot of these essays focused on.
Speaker 2They want to say like tell us how you you are contributing and want to contribute to the world.
Speaker 1Did undergraduate grades factor in at all? Did you have to send in a transcript?
Speaker 2I did.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2My grades weren't terrible, they weren't amazing.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2But I don't know if I don't think that was as big a factor for them as what people, because, especially this was a mid-career program, they wanted to know what was the trajectory of your career.
Speaker 1I love that, wow yeah.
Speaker 2Okay.
Speaker 1So you pack, you know, you pack up your life in DC. For how long is? Two semesters, Seven months, eight months.
Speaker 2Yeah, well, and then including, there was a summer program for us too, so it became closer to nine, because they had to teach us how to be students again. We were all these people that had been out most of us had been out of school for so long that we really had to knuckle down and it was this kind of slowly over five weeks, like teaching us how to get being studying and get good reading habits and all that going again.
Speaker 1That is so smart that they did that.
Speaker 2It was. It was it felt like being at camp.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2And it was a neat thing because my cohort there were 250 of us and in that time we had the school to ourselves, the Kennedy School. So we had all this chance to get to know each other and bond until before we got to the full school year so that we weren't just kind of pushed into being in classes. We actually had a lot of relationships going into that. So I think that really made the whole year even more special.
Speaker 1That's brilliant. That's brilliant. I don't think that you and I have talked about that before. If we did, I forgot, which happens a lot, all right. I what I really would love to talk to you about today. I got to see Jeff and over the Thanksgiving break, which sort of prompted this idea today of like let's essentially have that exact same conversation that we had over Thanksgiving, but record it. I would love for you to tell our listeners about I think it was, was it your J term class last so almost a year ago? I would love for you to tell our listeners about that class because, well, as soon as he told me about it, I went out and bought the book. Of course, I haven't read it yet, but like it's, it's, I think it's fascinating. I think the people that listen to this podcast will think it's fascinating. So, yeah, you just go for it and I'll interrupt you.
Speaker 2Well, thank you. I think I didn't fully know what I was expecting out of graduate school. I thought I was going to learn a lot about policy and kind of get some environmental knowledge that I didn't quite know yet. I thought I was going to learn a lot from the books. One thing that I really wasn't ready for or expecting was just how much, in line with the, the theme of your show, how much I was going to, you know, grow and heal from this experience. You don't go to grad school for that.
Speaker 1No, you don't.
Speaker 2But because the Kennedy school is so focused on leadership and service, it's they sort of take on the, the theory like you're on an airplane. They say put your own mask on first before you can help someone else. They take on that very same thought of you know, if you really want to exercise leadership, you've got to start with yourself. You need to lead yourself, but also be aware of your biases. Think about you, know how you need to grow, think about how you can process your failures so that you can learn from them and and and also then go deeper and think about, like, what caused you to fail in the first place.
Speaker 2That was really the core of this adaptive leadership course that I took. That was this immersive experience for two weeks, but you took this one class. If people haven't taken a J term before, you take one class for this month and you get full credit for doing it. It's as if you had taken a class all semester long, but it's all day long for these two weeks. And it was this, as I said, immersive experience where the the course really was intended for us to kind of practice exercising leadership as part of it, like with our peers. There are times the professor would just stop talking and it was up to us to kind of lead the room and figure out how we were going to do this without an authority in charge.
Speaker 1Will you share um? Was did you say on our previous in our previous conversation? Like was it the first day? The second day, the professor just stopped talking and you guys were like what the hell are we supposed to do right now? Or like what tell me about that, that feeling.
Speaker 2Well, it was really amazing One of the first days of this course this is actually there it was a semester and then the J term, and so it was in the semester ahead of time where you kind of looked more at systems. Before then the J term you look internally, and the first course, the first day, yeah, we didn't know what was going on. The professor he was lecturing a little bit about what is leadership, what are these concepts we're going to talk about, and then he just stopped. And then when people would raise their hand to speak, he wouldn't look at them.
Speaker 2Sorry, siri, really wanted to chime in there.
Speaker 1I love it, honestly. I love it when mistakes happen when we're recording, because it just shows everyone Hi, this is, we are real people, so, anyway, don't worry about it.
Speaker 2No, okay, uh, where was I then?
Vulnerability and Adaptive Leadership
Speaker 2Um somebody raised their hand, yeah, and the professor wouldn't look their direction and it was, and it was just so tense you had you felt this ball of tension and everyone around you was tense and we we didn't know what to do. And one person suggested that we um appoint someone to call on someone raising their hands, but then that was shot down. And then there's all these you know like ways people tried to process this and we're freaked out. And at the end the professor came back in and said one of the lessons that you learned today was how much we want authority, how much we we crave authority as people want someone else to tell us how to X, Y, Z, to tell us how to live.
Speaker 2Exactly and we or not necessarily to to tell us how to live, but at least to provide order. Yeah, Then, what we want? Someone who's going to create that, that structure, and just ensure that that work. We can function as a group.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2And um, and they talked a lot about authority as um authorities in agreement authority, we actually we grant people authority to to, you know, to make decisions that we adhere to, it's, and then we expect them to do the things. We expect them to bring order, and if they do or they don't, then they can keep or not keep that position. Wow, yeah, it was a, so that was kind of the start of this whole thing. But, um, yeah, and then we I think that one of the interesting things then this whole concept of adaptive leadership has to do with yeah, like, yeah, what, I'm going to interrupt you.
Speaker 1What does? What does adaptive Mm-hmm Go ahead? Everybody has been talking about that. Tell us about that. Leadership mean.
Speaker 2Yeah, well, so, and this is one of the questions that In this course, we had to, in order to learn that we were told to find a Case that we had failed, a place in leadership where we had failed, and to examine that and to look at why, and, with a small group and the larger group, to explore what had caused us to Fail. And so many times we there is an adaptive situation. Adaptive challenge is Situation where we don't know. We know there's something that needs to be faced, there's a challenge that has to be faced, but we don't really know what the end result looks like, right, and we don't really know what the steps are to get there, whereas you know as opposed to a technical challenge like building a house you know what the steps are right, you get the materials, you hire the architect, you know the do all these things and you know what it's gonna look like at the end and you know how to get there.
Speaker 2Yeah and both adaptive and technical. You need leadership, but great analogy but so many times what we. When there's an adaptive challenge, we treat it like a technical one. Hmm, yes and we think oh well, if I just do these steps one, two, three, this will solve this well, you just like, you just blew my mind.
Speaker 1I'm like oh crap, I've done that for literally everything.
Speaker 2We all have right because we want there to be simple solutions.
Speaker 2We want we want order right and and we want to believe that, that that we can find these steps that will just get us to what we need. But when you think of it, you know some of the big adaptive challenges, like addressing racism or Climate change we don't know what the end result looks like, and and we, if this isn't something that you can just you know, have a, you know numbers to guide you, and so that was really the key to this course was to think about how do we face, you know, some of these adaptive challenges and and the Way to they wouldn't even they would say we were not. There's no such thing as a leader. A Person is not a leader because we think of someone. They have charisma, they're a leader, they, they, you know, tell people what to do. But really exercising leadership, by the definition of this course, is helping people solve difficult challenges.
Speaker 1And helping people solve difficult challenges.
Speaker 2And so you can do that from a place of Formal authority. Maybe you're the boss that makes decisions, maybe informal authority, maybe you're someone who knows a lot, you're an expert on a situation, so people trust you. Or you might have no authority. You might be the intern, the new intern at a new job, and at each of these levels there's still ways to exercise leadership by helping people understand and and address their challenges.
Speaker 1I Love this. Did you? Did you know, going into this class, really, what it was gonna be about?
Speaker 2no, no, well, a little bit like why did you choose it?
Speaker 1Or was it something where you required to take it?
Speaker 2It's funny because I thought I've, I've, I managed value fair with Nikki, I don't need another leadership course, come on.
Speaker 1Well, it's interesting. I'm gonna interject for a second because I'm actually taking a leadership course right now, because a live-in kick in requires it of of the staff which. Thank you, thank you, thank you. But I'll admit, going into that class I was like I have a ton of leadership experience. I'm gonna ace this, not like there's anything to ace, I'm not. There's no quiz or anything like that. He Eric Thuringer is the guy's name. He nipped that in the bud immediately, not not by saying it, but just within the first 20 minutes. I was like I know nothing, I'm just just shut up, be a sponge, you know, but I'm. But I just interjected because it's this happens a lot where we you and I, or just we, the general, we are like I Don't need to go do this thing, I've already done it, I already know how to do it, when really we only know a little bit right, right and in this whole adaptive Framework.
Speaker 2But there were so many new tools and no, it's funny, I didn't think I needed another course. But then what I heard about this course was that it really changes people, that I heard that he in some way it really Deconstructs you, kind of tears you apart and pulls you back together and and it's hard, but then you're stronger at the end of it. Someone told me this and said I, actually I was. I was telling one of my cohort mates I was saying, well, I don't know if I need to take that course. And they said, jeff, this is one of the signature courses Like this is the reason you come to the Kennedy School. You need to do this.
Speaker 2Oh my gosh and and I'm so glad I got that bit of advice.
Speaker 1I'm so glad that you listened to that. Speaking of being torn apart, will you please share the story of how you were questioned essentially by your professor? Jeff told me the story back in and during Thanksgiving, so now I'm trying to remember the details to spark, to spark a memory. But you were essentially chosen to be in the hot seat.
Speaker 2Yes.
Speaker 1Will you explain what that process was like for you and what? What? What that means by me saying you're in the hot seat?
Speaker 2Yeah, well, one of the things that one of the the lessons from the course is the value of being vulnerable and.
Speaker 2One thing I learned about myself over the course of this was to realize just how I've been very unwilling, very afraid to be vulnerable and and also kind of very defensive and let things be Hurtful when they actually weren't meant to be hurtful. Yeah, you know, I let I let myself take things personally that weren't about me, and and then of course, that then got in the way of exercising leadership or really just in the way of a lot of relationships in general, and and it also kind of prevented me from learning from past failures too, when you kind of let things become too personal. So I this was really a lesson I wanted to dive in and practice vulnerability in this course, and we in our small groups, we were discussing our failures and and and then we would, you know, each day we would take up one person's case and the rest of us in the group would help them kind of examine that and examine how they, what caused them to fail? What? Where did they learn this behavior that?
Speaker 2Cool well, and it's very rooted in psychology, the. You know the. The professor had studied psychology, and so Then, when we would come back together at the end of the day, then as the large group over a hundred people in this class Then one person would get randomly selected to have their case Exowned by the professor in front of the whole god.
Speaker 1Oh god, so how did it? Was that? Just like pull the name out of a hat or a scrabble tile scrabble tile. Okay, okay, okay. Sorry, I keep going. I'm getting nervous like just listening.
Speaker 2Oh man, it was a just this pit in my stomach because it was me and I thought, oh man, here we go, and I was. I just said, well, I'm gonna learn how to do this, and and and. The course was so amazing because another piece of this was Sometimes you to help people see what they don't want to see, you need to make them feel a little uncomfortable.
Speaker 2You need to raise the heat a little bit, and that's what happened. Like being here's really kind of raised, raised my consciousness a little bit, raised my anxiety, but also like put me in a space to Explore a little bit more.
Personal Growth Through Intense Therapy
Speaker 2Yeah and so, and and the professor asked me some very pointed questions about the, the case I'd chosen, that I had failed on, and. And then asked me okay, where did you learn this? And and asked me like what you know, where, where was this behavior? Where'd this come from? At what point in your life? Who gave this to you? And doing this in front of this hundred people? And realizing I can do this, I don't, I don't have to be afraid to share these, these some painful things with people. Actually, they might even benefit from from me sharing yes, and that was a huge breakthrough for me yeah as well as yeah. So that's that was that experience. Then, like just, and by the end of it, I felt it was totally destabilizing and yet so beneficial for for going through that process.
Speaker 1Wow, Wow. I'm sure when you were done you're like I would go to a nap, because time is sleep for a while.
Speaker 2Well, that's exactly it at the end of the day. And then at the end of the course, after two weeks of this, I had a book to trip to go to Florida, for there was a week off Until the spring semester and I canceled my trip and I just stayed in and I kind of did some journaling and reflecting and I just kind of Went away for a little or just stayed in for a little while to just kind of read.
Speaker 1You know, good process, everything that right and sort of just decompressing come down from that, because it sounds incredibly Beneficial, like I'm like is to see, do an online course. I want to do it, but to be in that intense of a situation, yeah day after day talking about some really major things.
Speaker 1Yeah, and and for some of you well, for all of you but you had to do this in front of everybody, just like Opening up your entire heart and bringing on some walls in order to fully participate Sounds absolutely incredible and exhausting and exploring traumas together, to write and and, in some ways, learning that you couldn't speak about your traumas and you don't have to be afraid to do that.
Speaker 2That actually, when you're, when you can say things, when you can share things about yourself, you're helping other people find similar, you're making connections through something similar. Yes, and you're also, you know, taking away some of the stigma about talking about some of these things that we are Unnecessarily afraid to talk about right, right, which is one of the reasons why I like to do this podcast.
Speaker 1You know is just, even though it's painful, when we I'll admit, jeff, like Jeff and I have been friends for how long? 20 some years. But I walked away from our breakfast together or in November, feeling like I knew you better than I ever have. And and there was. I don't know how to explain it because I I've never felt that you've been Carrying along like some extra luggage. I've never felt that around you. And yet when we left breakfast I was like he just seems more at peace. Then I've seen you seem more at peace than I've seen you maybe ever, and Perhaps that has to do with this class. Maybe it's just cuz.
Speaker 1You know you're from Hava now. I know you have a new job now, but I'm just really for the lack of sounding like I'm babying you. I'm really proud of you for doing some really hard work. Yeah, so are you able to tell us anything specific about you, know, and obviously whatever you're comfortable with, but, like, what parts of you have healed in the past year? What have you been working on that? Maybe you had said, no, I'm not going down that road, but now you are going down that road Like how you're different, now how? Why?
Speaker 2I think so much. I attribute to this class, as well as the whole year, being able to step away and reflect what an incredible gift that was.
Speaker 2I was able to do that and kind of be guided through some of these reflections too and to think about so many of these things. But for me, about myself, we started the conversation talking about me being in this shell. Yeah, and it's. I realized just how much I had learned from you know from my childhood, from you know what had been modeled to me to always try to please other people and to really think about. You know my identity and how I always wanted to present a certain way. I wanted people to like me and I wanted to say the right thing.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2I wanted to be really careful about what I said, so I would say the right thing, so I could please everyone. And that's where the shell came from. As well. As you know, being in the closet when I was young and having, you know, hiding all that away, always like feeling I had to present and I didn't want to burden people, I didn't want to be a burden on people, I didn't want to ask for help, I had to take it all on myself. Yeah, and these were all things that have caused me to fail in different ways over the years and as well as sometimes succeed, you know, and so that's the thing, too, that you want to be mindful of. You know what you want to keep and what you want to leave behind.
Speaker 1Right, because the acting career can certainly come in handy. Absolutely.
Speaker 2Oh, I think I mean side note. Studying theater and acting was a huge boon for everything else I did, because they teach you to do it, because they teach you to be more in connection with yourself.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2But for me, and then you know when I like in this, over the course, when I was doing my deep reflection and speaking to my mom, you know, I found out how much of what I had learned had been passed on to me from past generations.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2And how I was carrying these waters from past generations. Very sadly, when my mom was a teenager, her dad had died by suicide. And when I look back and think of you know, and she's, she's so loving. She is one of the she's the best person I know my mom's so sweet Hi team but also very much what I've described in myself is what I learned from her.
Speaker 1Sure.
Speaker 2Is to, you know, take everything on and don't be a burden and don't talk to people.
Speaker 2And when I stopped and thought about, really put myself in her shoes, the 16 year old, my mom's shoes, and suddenly, like she had just gotten her driver's license, she was the one in the family who had to take care of everything.
Speaker 2She became the mom of the family back then and had to take it all on the small town where there was going to be the stigma and shame. You can't talk about what happened. And when I really stopped and let myself just absorb that and think about that and think about how you know what shaped her to be what she became and then passed on to me, I just sat and I cried. I was like by a fireplace, journaling on my computer and I just sat there and just tears just dripped down my face for an hour, yeah. And then when I realized so many times I wasn't even consciously fully aware of the times that I let myself be defensive or hold back or let things, like I said earlier, to take things really personally, like if someone bumps into you and I think, oh, they were a jerk to me.
Speaker 1Right, when really they just accidentally bumped into you.
Speaker 2It had nothing to do with me.
Speaker 1They don't know who I am.
Speaker 2That's not some slight against my identity, right? But a little, in a small way, and in so many small little ways, I look back and realize how much I let that happen, yeah, how much I let myself be offended by something that had nothing to do with me.
Speaker 1Yeah, that's major, jeff. Like to have that new perspective, and I told you this when you would share this with me a month ago, but I had no idea that that's how you had been living. So what has your year been like? Just like freedom, or do you just feel happier?
Speaker 2Freedom is absolutely what it is when you realize how much the decisions that you make are influenced by these things that you weren't aware of. And now you're aware of, and now you can consciously, instead of reacting to something, you can generate curiosity Right, and to know that you have so much more ability to just guide your own thoughts. In moments like that, freedom is the best word for it, and just peace. It's so peaceful to not feel offended all the time by different little things that aren't supposed to offend you.
Speaker 1Right, I was talking to a girlfriend not too long ago and this was when I was learning, actually getting diagnoses for my health issues instead of just wondering what the hell was wrong. And when I first was diagnosed with fibro and chronic fatigue, I was very angry about it. It wasn't like, oh yay, relief. I am now at a place of relief, but at the time I was just pissed off because I automatically assumed that my journey would be the same as my mom's.
Speaker 1And a loving friend said to me Nikki, you are not your mom, and for some reason I was not able to get to that point on my own. But when she said it, I thought oh, oh, yeah, I'm not, and you know my or my dad or whatever. You know our parents. I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt right now. Our parents teach us what they think is right. I believe that, at least with my parents and I don't have to follow down the road that they were on I'm on a different road, you know, and your mom was doing the best that she could with the information that she had based on her own experience, which really is all we have, you know. I mean, so I just think about yeah, she, my mom, your mom, my dad, your dad, have made some mistakes, so have we, but they did what they thought was going to be the best thing for us, even if it, even if it wasn't.
Speaker 2It's true of our parents, and I think you can find a lot of peace when you can really let yourself believe that people, that your parents did the best they can.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2But I think beyond your parents, most people, I think, when I think if you can realize that most people are doing the best that they can, then that puts you in a mind frame to be more helpful to them and to make a better world.
Speaker 1Yes, yes, our Lord and Savior, renee Brown tells this story and I'm going to totally botch it and someone's going to be listening to this and they're going to be like that's not how it went. But she tells this story in one of her books that she was really pissed off at the world and was like people suck, everything sucks. And she asked her husband do you think that people are doing the best that they can? And he said I don't know if they're doing the best that they can, but assuming that they are is so much better for him. You know, like assuming the best and other people, which can be really challenging, because sometimes people are doing dumb shit. But you know, when you assume the best in someone, it frees them up. It frees you up. It's just a kinder, more loving way to live. I wish I was living like that all the time, but I'm not.
Speaker 2Well, and if you truly want to help someone, just stating something, stating an opinion about what they're doing, is not likely going to help them in those situations, you know, but somehow we think that that's how, if we just stamp our feet, like even if you're going to have a political debate with someone or whatever it is, you know, if you just think so many people think they can just stamp their feet and cross their arms and there's. I'm just going to say what I think and I'm right. That means.
Speaker 1I'm going to win the argument.
Speaker 2And if we can be more compassionate and approach these situations with curiosity, there you go, you know let's. Let's ask questions that help them get to. That's what's going to have lasting changes when you ask questions that help people get to where they need to be, rather than just try to explain it to them.
Speaker 1Going into a conversation with the goal of understanding as opposed to the goal of trying to change someone's mind so that they think like I do. Yeah, it's just probably a more loving way to go about living in this world. It's challenging.
Speaker 2It's very hard because someone might be acting or speaking in a way that is not in not consistent with your values, and so it can be so hard to just sit and listen when that is the case, and in those situations, it's helpful to allow yourself to hold multiple thoughts in your head at the same time. Just because this thoughts in your head and you're listening to it doesn't mean you're agreeing with it, it doesn't mean that you're endorsing it, but it means that it means that you're trying to understand where they are.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2And that has to be the first step to finding common ground.
Speaker 1Right and to make change. If that's the goal, right. But finding the common ground is really important, especially in there's so much crap going on.
Speaker 2But, yes, trying to just understand and start from there and understanding that people want to be heard, people want you to take an interest in them and when you can do that, that's a great gift to someone to really see them and to really ask questions and listen to them, and that's also going to build the trust. Like you say, if you want to make change, or maybe you want to help them see something they don't necessarily want to see right now, you've got to create the space for it first.
Speaker 1Yeah, yes, you have to create the space first. I love that. That's absolutely right. That needs to be. I know, I know earlier we said there's no concrete steps to getting to where you need to go, but but honestly, step one could be just just create, create space. I basically think we just solved all the world's problems.
Speaker 2That's it.
Speaker 1This, this particular podcast, will probably be going viral, so just prepare yourself.
Speaker 2I'm excited.
Speaker 1Okay, well, this is a good time to like wrap it up. I'm so glad that you're that you were willing to talk today. I love that whenever you're in town, you let me know so that I could see you, because I just adore you, me. Have a. I call Jeff. Have a, which really means boss. I also call me Pero. See, see we, when we were doing those Valley fair tours that we were talking to you about earlier. This is sort of one. American Idol is first coming out.
Speaker 2Oh, yeah, yeah, and we were like the traveling American Idol, the, basically were we.
Speaker 1That's exactly what we're doing. We were judging people. I was Simon. I was the biggest judge of them all, you were Randy Jackson, probably, and then Christopher was the sweetest of all of us and he was Paula Abdul. But we all kind of started calling each other dog, because that's that's what they did on the show. That's what Randy Jackson did, which then turned into Pero. So yeah, I have a lot of silly nicknames for you.
Speaker 2Me too Well, and I always love seeing you, nikki. I always love coming home. This is, this will always be, a home to me in theapolis.
Speaker 1Yeah, I'm glad that you feel that way. You know, because you've kind of been everywhere. I'm glad that you, that you still feel like this place is home to you.
Speaker 2Well, it is because of the loved ones that I have, which includes you.
Speaker 1Oh, that's so sweet. Okay, everybody, thank you so much for listening. We love you and, as always, thank you for healing and growing with me. Mwah, this podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, health or professional advice. I am not responsible for any losses, damages or liabilities that may arise from the use of this podcast. This podcast is not intended to replace professional medical advice.
