S2Ep23: Jenn & Jen with Postnatal Support Advocates

Jenn Ewald, LCSW and Jen Sellitto-Penoza, LCSW (affectionately referred to as "The Jenns") founded the 501c3 non-profit organization, Postnatal Support Advocates, Inc., in mid 2023. Our mission is to revolutionize the postpartum experience for Delaware Families through emotional wellness support during the foundational 4th trimester and beyond. We wholeheartedly believe that when adequately served and supported, postnatal parents have access to the rest, recovery and care that their mind and body needs. This ultimately means a reduction in postpartum mood disorders and better opportunity for a secure parent-infant bond.

Follow here:  IG and FB: @postnatalsupportadvocates.

 balancedmindjourney.com/maternalwellness.

Transcript

[00:00:00] This is a 302 podcast. I'm Jen Saludo Pinoza, and I'm a licensed clinical social worker in the state of Delaware. Um, and Jen and I met in graduate school at Widener University. And we've just had several paths bringing us together, um, through our career. And so we kind of have cultivated. Cultivated?

Cultivated. Cultivated? Recently. Um, our own, well I guess not our own because once you even do it, it's not yours anymore, but a non profit. Um, because we've decided to settle on, um, working hard to, you know, revolutionize some postnatal support advocacy. Maternal, uh, mental and emotional wellness is the primary focus and then we get to partner with a lot of really cool.

local folks who do different, um, services that we're not, um, [00:01:00] consuming them under our umbrella, but rather part, a lot of partnerships. Um, because we believe in a collaborative, you know, community based approach. And so, uh, about the middle of last year, we became a 501c3. So the original idea was like, we need to help, we need to do something different.

Jen and I both have our own, uh, experience with, uh, Birth and some adversities and I had a birth traumatizing birth experience. Um, and I just knew I didn't have language for it. It didn't make sense. And then I would watch other women, um, talk about it or other birthing people talk about it. And a lot of our clients in private practice, because both Jen and I had our own private practices.

And you're Jennifer Ewald. Oh, right. Sorry. I am Jennifer Ewald. And I'm also a licensed clinical social worker. Um, uh, yes. And I, uh, and Jen and I founded Postnatal Support Advocates Together. Um. And we just listening to our clients in private practice who would do 10 years past birth. No one ever asked about the birth experience or they'll start talking about it and break down.

There's a lot of, uh, you know, postpartum PTSD and, [00:02:00] um, that's, and then really sometimes even, um, attachment issues with their child as a result or, you know, their role as, um, primary caregiver and their family or whatever has, you know, has now been a decade, um, um, uh, kind of. More chaos. Yeah, and no language.

Yeah, you know, and nobody advocating, you know, um, and I think The more we, um, you know, uh, we have these experiences as professionals and then we're able to actually in, um, integrate it into the work that we do and then we hear it. And um, and you know, I had a close friend who was getting ready to have a baby, um, and we just, Jen and I were just talking, you know, and we're like, I just, there's gotta be something better we can do, we can do it differently and how can we, you know, make it so that, um, immediate intervention, uh, is, um, Is standard, you know, it's, it's not like, wait till you're hurt or wait till you're not okay, but that it's just immediate, um, well, the baby goes [00:03:00] right, right to get a checkup within a week after, and then regularly with pediatricians after being born.

And you know, women, um, depending on if you give birth in a birth center at the hospital, you might get somebody to come in and try to do a postpartum depression check, just usually. So yeah. I'm like, I like a survey. Right. And, and. Uh, to be completely honest, when, when I took that survey after I had my daughter, I lied.

I like, because I was just like, I don't want to, who am I going to talk about this with? I don't want them to know. I don't even know if this really fits. And postpartum depression didn't fit. It was postpartum PTSD, but I didn't know that was a thing. So I was just like in a fog six weeks after birth and just sort of get me out of here, you know?

So even being a licensed professional. Mental health professional. I still didn't even know that's what I was experienced because I didn't have the language for it, and it didn't look like what maybe we've seen in the culture, right? It's like, and I, and I, I didn't want to harm my baby. So there's these extremes, right?[00:04:00] 

Right. You only hear about the most extreme, right? Or you're, you're, you know, this woman harmed her child or she wanted to or herself. Right. So a lot of it came from our experience professionally. And then our own personal experiences and just being, you know, a woman in this society and, and, uh, and a birthing person in the society.

And so we were like, let's, let's just try to do it differently. So originally we were going to be. Fourth trimester specific program. That would be the first three months post birth where we went into mom's, uh, homes just so you have to gather yourself and get it, you know, and then we quickly learned and we would provide emotional support and it wouldn't be, um, you know, Because you're, uh, really struggling.

It would just be because you had a baby because you had a baby, you should have support period. Yeah. Um, and we don't want you to wait until you're not okay. Cause usually when you're not okay, it's so far down. Right. Um, and you don't, again, don't even have language to know. Maybe that you're not [00:05:00] sometimes when you're in the midst of it, it's very hard to identify the problem until you're done.

Yes. And so it's just having. More check ins on women and saying, okay, you may not realize it, but like you guys can come in and help identify, um, or even admitting it's like the shame around moms or just providing information in real time, right? Like, um, yes, this is really hard. Yes. It's okay. To like. Not like your baby at first, like it's okay, you know, just like normalizing a lot of feelings like a frustration in this moment.

If you take all these classes beforehand and you read all this stuff, but then baby comes and you're just, and then you're left with baby alone moms, you know, primary parent, usually a lot of our clients will share. How much they will read about the birth process, but there's very little postpartum that's discussed.

The assumption is I have a baby and then life just goes back to normal. And I think like subconsciously we will know, but it's like so much is focused on the actual birth, which education is actually necessary. But that postpartum is still a very [00:06:00] silent experience and very isolating for a lot of women.

Nobody's talking about it. Nobody's reading about it. And we don't have a village. There's no village. There was a time when there was a village and it's been removed, we believe deliberately and then commodified. you mean it's been removed deliberately so that we could commodify the services. So like, you know, if, if you, if there was a village, right, and then people really lived in a community and everyone helped, you know, with raising children and it all being this big supportive, um, community.

And then we move to more hyper independence, you know, or that focus of hyper independence and, you know, in our neighborhoods that, but we don't even know our neighbors. It's not the community aspect is lost and we're kind of shoved in our homes isolated by ourselves. Um, living the American dream, right?

Well, our family members or our friends or our. You know, our aunts or and our siblings or they're all still working right under capitalism. You're working till [00:07:00] 65 or later. So like, you know, there's nobody, they're already participating in that. So they can't participate in the community aspect. And so purposefully, right.

That helps keep us all individualized, right. And that helps all of us keep being the cogs in the wheels and too busy, right. To notice that we're not, you know, as. You know, experiencing freedom in the way that maybe freedom is meant to be experienced. It makes sense because a lot of our, or more than not, when we have a patient who gives birth, I usually, we usually ask, you know, is anyone coming, you know, and more times than not, they're like, no.

Yeah. Right. No. No, because my mom still works. Exactly. Because Yeah. They're in the military and Hey, you know, they're in the midwest next to each other. Yeah. No one's, no one's any like close enough anymore. Right. And there's that lost sense of community and then I don't want to ask for help. Right. I should, I should be able to do it myself.

What's wrong with me? Right. Um, and so, you know, because that's the message that's out [00:08:00] there in the culture, right? And the culture. Right. And so I'm also super mom, right? They do it all. Yeah. And then we do and we overextend and we, and then we burn out. I mean, there's so many different variations of. The exploitation of mothers, you know, in whatever stage of where they are and the free labor that we provide.

That is, you know, if you have a baby and you stay at home, uh, women are like, um, I don't work. What? Uh, you definitely work. It's just not paid. Right. And then in our culture, if it's not paid labor, it's not valued labor. So it is really, um. Interesting that we've done that to motherhood. Right? And that we, so every time we interact with moms and they're like, Oh, I don't work.

Sorry. Yes. Uh, yes, you do. You're just, uh, unpaid. It's unpaid domestic labor, but we need to, you know, keep, we're driving that home show that there's value in what you're doing. Significant value. Cause that can be really hard. Just like, it's really hard to Like, go back to work outside of the home when you have an infant and if you're, you know, trying to [00:09:00] breastfeed or pump or, you know, whatever, all of the, you know, keep up with all of the things in that way as well, you know, there's, there's burdens both ways.

Um, significantly. Absolutely. And we're, and then we're, And what about, you know, there's so, so many women who don't have a choice. So we're talking about privileged women when we're talking about the choice and staying home. And there's so, so many women and burden people who have no choice and they go back to work bleeding and they go back to paid labor bleeding.

Right. And then there's, you know, all the, the high costs of childcare and, um, lack of support on top of that, we're just really setting Women up, you know, mental health wise. Well, and then their, their Children, right? Because then the, their attachment to their Children suffers, right? And so we know now to which we haven't.

But then us, you know, what decade? 20 years, 12 years, um, how important that is, how important creating those family bonds are to creating people who feel connected to the world that they're [00:10:00] in. Um, but that's juxtaposed against hyper independence and no real community. So we're demanding it back, right? I think we, there's movements all over.

We're seeing a lot of things like us pop up. There's Josie's Grace and Newark that does wonderful work, um, uh, with postpartum moms and that comes from. Uh, uh, psychiatric nurse practitioner who worked in the field and was like, no, this can't. And she did that, right? It's a nonprofit up in Newark. And we're seeing a lot of, uh, women owned, women founded organizations, mother founded, right?

Organizations that were like, this can't be the way. So we're seeing the pop up sort of grassroots. And I bet eventually it's going Be consumed by, um, some of the larger corporations. There is definitely a shift, though, where women are finally, I feel like, enough people have gone through it where they're like, why are we still so silent?

Why are we letting more people suffer? We need to create these spaces, postpartum, um, and beyond for women to have that safe spot to go to discuss the reality of what's going on. [00:11:00] Yeah. And we believe that postpartum is like lifespan, right? So like, oh, this first four weeks, it's the first six weeks. It's the lifespan.

You've had a kid. You're always postpartum, right? You're like, that is the truth, right? And having a child and raising them and going through that in any stage, of course, very, very critical in that first aid. And we don't, our organization doesn't care if it's your first kid or your 10th kid, right? Any child that you bring in is going to change.

You have, you know, an experience with each birth is so different. Like when we have people come in, like there'll be like, this one's totally different than my last child. And it's like, it's going to be different every time. Or like, they could have a great. First birth and then a very traumatic second birth, and there's just a lot of different contributing factors.

Variables. Yeah. Absolutely. And as social workers, you know, we, what we bring to the table in regards to our organization is understanding the systemic, uh, oppressions and vi and obstetric violence and, uh, racist, um, medical practices, you know, that we, um, Understand and continue to learn about that. We want.

We also [00:12:00] center and so we don't pretend that's not a thing. And it's it's can be very helpful in the social justice element of, uh, these, um, mental health, like the mental health impacts, right? Like it's, it's not ever just in this one vacuum. These systems of oppression are alive, well, and, and, uh, and often on a little difficult to label.

So as social workers, we're trained that way, right? To understand systemic oppression and, and, um, how that impacts, uh, all, all the folks, but also, um, that's just a critical like part of our organization. In helping women, it's not separate. Right. And so does it show up in your organization? How does like the, the systemic and systemic injustice, you know, you're very aware of it.

Um, I mean, I think that's the first part is being aware that that even exists. Um, and then having that show up in your, Program. Yeah. Your nonprofit. Like, what does that look like? Well, for, uh, for [00:13:00] clients, it's, uh, uh, and my, and myself included, it, it's a lot of obstetric violence, right? So there's this like very patriarchal, very condescending, very harmful approach, um, when women are very, very vulnerable and obstetric violence is very similar to like, uh, a lot of the violence is against women, like, uh, sexual violence and domestic violence, right?

It's just this like, um. This, um, power differential and then exploitation of that power, um, and the way that, um, some of the medical practices are in, in the, in the hospital birthing and even in birth centers as well. Um, and so the way women are treated, the way they're mistreated, the way they're humiliated during these vulnerable, the way you better listen to me, I mean, these are like, not just kind of random, crazy things, like these are said.

Often and birthing people, women, they don't know. They just know it doesn't feel right. Often like sexual violence and domestic violence, uh, survivors. Um, because it's somebody you're supposed to [00:14:00] trust, right? Right. We were just talking with somebody about that where It's there like 36, 38 weeks. And then the doctors are like, all right, Hey, let's set that C section up now or induction.

And you're like, wait a second here. Like I still have a couple of weeks. Switch with like, this is the type of provider I am. And then when you get in there, I've witnessed it, you know, um, because I became a doula, uh, during the pandemic and it's not something I continue to follow through. And I was just really trying to find this.

I know we need to help, uh, intervene with women somehow. And so how are we going to do, you know, and so I briefly did that and, uh, and I witnessed it. You know, with another female provider. So this is patriarchy is not limited to men, right? You know, it's a system. And so it was, I think part of what we are able to do is be able to name that and claim that for people.

Right. So they have this experience a lot of times, right? Husband, but you had a healthy baby. Like it's fine. Oh, these, um, but they're having, right. Like things come up on like every Wednesday cause that's when they had their baby. They're having these like panic attacks or whatever because their body remembers that it [00:15:00] was, it had this.

You know, horrific experience and it feels not safe. So I mean, so I practice EMDR as a therapist, which is, um, really helpful for some traumatic incidences and I've had, um, I've seen clients for their, for their birth trauma specifically. So it's even just being able to have a conversation though with them that, yes, this happened to you.

I'm sorry this happened to you. It wasn't your fault. It wasn't your fault. It's hard to advocate for yourself when you're most I've even had people who were in the medical field. They actually Somehow get it worse when they try to like avoid epidurals or avoid someone who's a health care provider. Yes.

They're like, Oh yeah. So they, I mean, I, the level of which just even verbal, like, you know, well, why don't you go back to the birth center when they got transferred from the birth center? I'm like, these are professionals. Are we in middle school? Like they personally are offended. Like they are. I don't want to say the name.

They are a large hospital that they are part of and they only have stakeholder in it. You [00:16:00] know, like it's, it, but it is just that naming and claiming for them. Right. And being able to say, this is what happened to you. This is a problem. We are seeing this race of people feel seen and heard and validated and they don't feel like, Oh my gosh, like, right.

There was something I should have done or I should have known better or, and while they're recovering from major surgery, that also is trying to keep an infant alive or a newborn. So. Um, even just the birth experience, if we, you know, it's just, it is a trauma to your body. It's not even like, if you get in a car accident, it's like, that's what I mean, like giving birth.

That's just like, Whoa, what did we just do? So even on a good day, just a regular, healthy, good, solid birth or positive birth is still your body's like, Whoa, we just did that. Your body is completely different postpartum, right? And then we do know, and we can, you know, advocate and share with, you know, clients that we know that, um, Um, you know, if you identify as LGBTQ, sometimes your experiences are even more [00:17:00] intense or you're a person of color, a person of color, that we statistically know, right?

Like the level of pain that they endure, because there's still in the medical field that somehow people of color feel pain less or differently or whatever. I mean, it's just, it's, it's maddening, you know? Um, but there, I mean, that's like, I mean, that's like kind of therapy 101 is to name and claim, but we can, you know, and, and, you know, acknowledge those systems.

Cause I think people go in and write it. We're so individualistic. Like Jim was saying that like, I failed myself. I failed my baby. I failed my family. This isn't the motherhood that I plan for it. It's like, none of this was, you had any control over, right? These are the systems and how they impact us. You know, but this is how we can heal and how we can grow and then how we can advocate and, you know, and take our power kind of back, you know, right.

And I think in, well, because we are sort of just taught to trust the medical system, uh, some of us, um, that, um, that like when, when they, they do, it's shocking. That's just [00:18:00] another trial. Like you want to be able to, right. Well, you should be able to, they're like, you know, and intimately involved with your And we were cool the whole way through, you know, the, the nine months that we were together in this relationship and then something shifts and they're on a time, you know, if you don't, if your body doesn't start doing this, we're going to have to take you in as if you have a control and that, and in fact, then your anxiety raises and you shut down.

Yeah, there's some really good documentation out there on the cascade effects of something along those lines. Very different, different scenarios like that where it's like you go in, it's just not progressing, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's dangerous. And yet they turn it into a dangerous and then they're like, we have to induce you.

We have to give you these different drugs that aren't even made for this. And then it causes the contractions to be faster. And then the baby is obviously goes up for the baby, this emergency C section, but often it's created. By the provider. Indeed it is, Megan. Yeah. So it's a really it is. I'm, you know, you guys are doing great work in [00:19:00] creating this because it's a conversation, you know, that needs to be had because, you know, even for C sections, there's no standard of care across the board.

You know, the way there is for other things. If you're going to go in for knee surgery, there is a standard of care. This is what we do. You have to have these prerequisites to have it. Then in this situation we would do it. And then here's your recovery. And for C sections, it depends on the provider you get in the hospital you go in.

Yeah, I'm just so wild. I'm I was I had an emergency c section and I Nothing. I was just sent home with a baby and it was like, I mean, it's, I, we advocate a lot for obviously chiropractic care, postpartum, but also pelvic floor therapy. And then, um, the idea of healing. And if you had. Yeah. You know, your abdominals could open.

It will take a long time to heal. It can very, very long time. And there's a lot of work that needs to be done with it. And they're giving zero tools. Well, right. And also that, that information is just, yeah, I think that's the biggest thing is information. If we did like recognize C sections as major [00:20:00] surgery, we would actually have to care for the person that we did this.

You know, and maybe even would make people go, I don't know if I actually want that. Well, you should, a decision for a major surgery needs to be contemplated and made sure it's right for you. It cannot be a waste. Yes. You can't make an informed decision in those situations. And of course, if you don't make the correct decision, um, Then what?

You know what I mean? It's like the mom's to blame if anything goes wrong, right? If they don't want that or want to wait a little bit longer for jumping into that situation. So it is fear, uh, language deliberate. Yeah. And we see control, right? Like really in the end, it's controlling the labor. It's controlling the birth.

It's controlling, you know, their time, their money. They're whatever. Right. But it doesn't, it provides, and then what it leaves though is, um, birthing people feeling out of control. Like they have no locus of control because it was just taken from them at like a really important transitional point in their life.

Right. Vulnerable and vulnerable, uh, [00:21:00] space. Right. And that's why so many sexual assault survivors are re-triggered. And, and they don't understand, you know what, because it's, it's the, it's the same. Mm-Hmm. and meaning the dynamics behind it. Yeah. And of course, that you are in fact very vulnerably. Open on a tape, you know, yeah, um, a lot of that.

So yeah, so, so yes, that's a long answer to your question. Like, how does it show up? But I'm sure we we do. There's some fine print informed consent that we sign when, you know, when we go to be treated, right? Sure. Yeah, that we did. This is like, we let you decide, you know, um. Yeah, that covers the obviously unfortunate, right?

Yeah. But yeah, so that's, you know, one of the ways, of course, it shows up, which is multifaceted and, um, in gender based. But even if everything goes right, according to the person's birth plan, the transition of coming home as, you know, a parent, um, It's, it's the biggest transition there is really in life, right?

We, there's moving or there's partnering [00:22:00] or, um, there's like death, right? Yeah. Getting degrees, what have you, but like, there is nothing like expelling another human, right, from your body. And then like, Going home and having to take care of it. Right? With no, like you said, so individualistic, not much modeling, you know, like they even say, like breastfeeding is a learned behavior, not just, you know, we're not, um, as instinctual as some other mammals, right?

Right. But where there's nobody to like learn it. From right? Um, unless you pre emptively, right? And that create your own care. And you don't even know about I think in Delaware was when even like lactation consultants, like were even considered as like a real entity to like help women. Yeah. Recent, very recent.

That's yeah. That's pretty recent. I know you can be a nurse and an IBCLC, right. But like as a standalone, just this is what I know. We don't, and we don't have that many of them in Delaware, but that Medicaid even said that everybody should have that. Which, so you do get that, right? Somebody stops [00:23:00] by in the hospital for like five minutes and you're like, looks good and forgets that your boobs are attached to your body.

Like, wow. Yeah. But also, you know, The experience in the hospital, things change a lot when you go home. So a lot of people don't have issues initially because they're getting the assistance at the hospital and they go home and they're like, wait, how do I do this? What's going on? Is the baby latching right?

Right. Within 48 hours, I think the, one of the, um, lactation 48 hours, somebody should be in checking on mom. with baby, right? Mom with baby, not baby. Um, right. And then definitely somebody should be coming in and checking on mom when mom's taking baby to the like checkups like every two weeks. I can't get his purse, you know, Yeah, we, you know, laying eyes on mom, letting mom know what's, you know, what's normal, you know, sometimes just normalizing things for people is helpful or being there to be like, that's, you know, that, like, that's outside of the realm of normal, like, right.

We might want to address that cause that could, could become more of an issue. And even if we soften up on the [00:24:00] OBGYN midwife, you know, providers and say that they're not trained to check up on mom. I mean, outside of like the medical part, right. That's not their role. So who is it? They're not there.

Nursing. Right? And that's not that's not even a criticism. This is my lane. I did my lane. Right? And then this is lane for baby. But where is lane for mom? And there is no identified provider. And until You know, they, they say I'm not okay, but we don't, we don't, we don't want that, but it's very true because I feel like during pregnancy, right, nine months, everyone's like, Ooh, pregnant.

Ooh, you. Yeah. Right. And then baby's born. It's like, Oh, baby now. And then like, no one ever checks on the mom anymore. Right. Right. Right. They want to hold your baby. And there's a lot of great information. I wouldn't do that to you, by the way. I wouldn't do that to you, by the way. I know. You're, you're a good husband.

You're a good husband. And that's because that will shift things. You're a very good partner. Right. That will, that will shift things, really. Is how, that's why we try to use language like birthing part, uh, uh, birthing parent, um, and, [00:25:00] and, uh, primary parent, you know, or whatever. Right. Because We can't do, this can't be it.

It cannot be predominant. Just because we birthed the human doesn't mean that, you know, that it, you, your role is super significant. Right. Mother and father have become, right, really laid in terms. Like, we have an idea of what it means to be a mom or a dad, right, in this culture. We just got the idea of what it should be to be a good dad.

Like, that's a newer idea. That's sort of being a newer idea about, yeah, about the involvements of good dads, right? With their kids, they change a diaper every now and again or what have you, um, which has progressed. I know I'm being a little facetious, but we have to give credit to the younger millennials and younger.

I like. stepping up. I'm a partner or they want to be involved with their own. Yeah, they want to take care of them, you know, even though they didn't get to grow them or whatever. It doesn't mean like they're not connected and don't want to be right. And we need to offer that. I mean, that's part of the reason why, why, you know, fathers traditionally weren't.

Connected, right? They didn't stay [00:26:00] home any time with their babies after they were born. There also isn't any care. The paternity leave is abysmal in this country, let alone maternity leave. Right. But they don't even think you matter. The military recently extended their paternal leave. I was very impressed with the military.

Yeah. And that's always good too when, when it starts like at that level and it's Cause it trickles down better. Absolutely. So we're excited about the young people and the new generation. Like we, and we really, um, You know, or we want that for, for everybody because it's, it steals from the male partner as well that you don't, you know, sorry, you're, I mean, I know you guys are own your own business, but you know, in a, in a traditional setting, there is no, there's either no paternity leave for like two weeks and, and that's just such a robbery to the, the man who was like, I want to hang out with my kid, I want to know my baby and it's like, well, sorry, you don't matter.

So men should be really angry. Right. You hear that? Absolutely. Well, and then so anyways, sometimes [00:27:00] using gender neutral language, right, can help us envision more what that looks like, right? If you want to be a primary parent, what does that look like to you? Not just a dad, right? Like a primary parent. Um, cause then it helps us be able to conceptualize.

It's so much more right because we don't have kind of the laid in ideas of what it means to just like right. Be a good dad or an involved dad or a millennial dad or what, you know, all those kinds of things. If you want to be a primary parent, there's so much like that's involved with that, right? And you can, you, you know, partnerships can decide what works for them or not, right?

And they're good at what they, what they sell in. I don't cook, uh, even though it's a traditional female role, because my partner is a much better cook. Um, but like that's because it's what makes sense and what your skill set is not because you're a girl, you're a boy. And that's like, it's just not that simple.

And it never, ever was. We were just, we're forced into these roles. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which, right. That's the way we like, right. Patriarchy like fails men too. Right. It [00:28:00] fails families too. It fails children too. It's not just, you know, feminists out here being like, you know, this sucks. Like it really, it's not helpful or productive for.

You know, anybody, but the 1 percent that feels like they benefit from it. No, that is true. Cause we have, uh, some patients who just gave birth. She was a state worker. So now she three months at home, husband worked and then he was like in the state of Maryland. So then she went back to work, but then he got to stay home for the next three months.

And he was like, he's like, I love it. You know, he's like, my body actually feels a lot better. Cause I can actually relax a little bit. Yeah. He's like, Hey, he's like regretting going back. Way to go. I guess I never thought for, for offering paternity leave to him, you know, for three months. Well, and feeling like he can do that.

And he's enjoying it. Cause I know, I think when it first came, people were like, well, it was there, but you weren't really encouraged to take it because they wouldn't feel like, what would I, how would [00:29:00] I like? What does that? So like that becoming more of a norm absolutely is going to be amazing. And then the baby gets six months of primary care from their parents.

Like the biggest thing, cause they, well, it's also nice cause he's in a job that is predominantly male. Um, so we

also does have a job that's predominantly men as providers, but, and chiropractic, but yeah, just our, just our businesses shifting. To like graduating 50, 50 male, female. Really? Yeah. Just now. I think it's only been like the last couple of years. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So do you know the P in the pod chiropractic?

Yeah. So she's been a referral source for forever. Yeah. Cause Megan's doing a lot of that stuff. Well, you've been doing that stuff. And then also she's all like nervous system stuff too. Yeah. So we do, we do all the nervous system, the prenatal, we specialize in it. And it is different than going to just traditional chiropractic.

It's very, very different. Um, but yeah, so it's all wonderful stuff, but it is, it is an interesting cause our, our field still is male [00:30:00] dominated. So you do see that when you go to a different clinics, our clinic just is very feminine. Which is exciting. Yeah. Great. But that's great. But that's how that. how it can be.

It doesn't have to be one or the other. Like it's not about whatever you want to create. And I think that's what's really, I mean, that's what we like about owning your own business is doing that. But it's also like for what you guys are doing, you get to create something that is in much need for these women.

So one of the other things that we do is that we, we work with a lot of social workers who are like on their way. So they're like doing their second year of field placement or their interns. Um, we have to write work, um, two years, I think, two years post graduation, another licensed clinician to get signed on before we can become licensed.

So we, we have found that we work with a lot of those too, that, so we're getting a lot of younger moms who are going to school, but their moms themselves, and they're really like drawn to [00:31:00] helping other, um, Mom's and just being able to actually work with them and learn from them and nurture them because even our own field which is like to take care of people to humanize people.

It's like supposed to be about social justice and making things right. Like, don't even treat our own like interns or like a lot of like, yeah, https: otter. ai Poorly. And also, you know, we often are in these like agency settings or that are, uh, you know, underfunded and those kind of things. So we utilize our human resources and exploit them, which is not recommended, but in fact practiced a lot because we're all working with limited budgets and grant funding and all that stuff.

Well, that was become normal, right? You have to pay your dues kind of. Oh, that's a whole topic. We are not fans of that. Yeah. No, we are not either. We are not either. Absolutely not. Right? Well, that's the kind of motherhood. You got to pay your dues. You got to learn. I grew up. Social work is interesting in that though.

Cause I have an undergrad degree in sociology, anthropology, and like you can only [00:32:00] practice if you get a master's, um, and do that. But it's also not often paid well if you're not in practice. And even then it's just so interesting because the people who are providing services of help to those that are most vulnerable, we pay the least.

Oh, yeah. Well, that's a societal rule, right? Like what we value in society. We pay those people that way. But mental health is really important. Haven't you heard? I mean, they say it all the time. Mental health is really important. Oh, you know, we don't need new gun laws. We need more mental health services.

Oh, we don't, the kids aren't graduating high school enough. Oh, we just need more mental health services. Meanwhile, there's none of us around because we've all burned out. It's a really big issue in your field. Five to six years. There's more of us retiring from the field that are coming in because of the low pay rate and burnout rate.

I've heard it got us real good. Yeah. I have an undergrad. You have to get a master's. You have to work two years unlicensed before you can even get licensed all to right. Make like 45, [00:33:00] 000 a year. Like, are you kidding me? Only you know, you could do that. privileged people who can like marry people who have health insurance or if you're doing that and you're also doing something that's such an emotional work.

And I think that's a side that really isn't, isn't looked at a lot is, you know, you are helping people who are most vulnerable. You are going to also take on those emotions and are how good you are at the job. Yeah. And they do feel it in grassroots. They talk about the importance of self care and then a lot of in a field in the continuing education that we take talks about self care, but it's never provided.

And then we have to pay for, you know, we have to pay for those types of things. But in, in just expanding on what Jim was saying about these really great young folks that are coming in and we, it's on, you don't just be young in age, but young in the field where you're, um, Still, you're very excited and passionate.

We love when they come in and we listen. A lot of times you're not listened to and you're just too idealistic when you come out of school that we embrace and love that because they have all these new ideas and they can see things differently and they [00:34:00] all they come from different, um, Um, walks of life and and they offer such enrichment to the organization.

So that's in in a way of doing it differently yet again. It's like celebrating these folks. We welcome these folks. We're excited about them. And um, and then we have people who are going out and we're. Meeting moms who are not overworked and they're right. We're not like not overburdened. They're, you know, able to actually like, I think a lot of our field is to like model for people what like work life balance is supposed to be or what, you know, and so, and not having people just entrenched in all of the stuff and giving bare minimum care like that.

And that's why we like, not helpful either in, in knowing that We've, you know, we've been exploited in an agency setting. Many people are. And I say exploited, it sounds like it was deliberate, but it's just the dynamic, you know, of it. It's the current, like, culture. Yeah, the culture. Where you guys are working.

It's very hard to change that. Yeah. So then we, we are like, uh. Um, it is committed to the idea of understanding that, um, [00:35:00] you know, you're as you change your work schedule changes. So traditionally it's like you're supposed to pretend you're not a parent. You're just supposed to pretend you're not a parent and that you're, you know, if your kid has soccer after this, it doesn't matter.

It shouldn't affect your school or your work and we don't do that schedule or you're supposed to just keep it the same all the time. Doesn't matter. And that's how, that's how widely most. Jobs do expect. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if you're going through a hard time. It doesn't, it doesn't matter.

Right. So. In being a true, true social workers, we do, we don't operate that way. So if right now you're, you know, I can only see this many clients. Okay, great. That's fine. And if later you're like, you know what, I'm in a bit of a better space and I think I can add more. Great, fine. We're never going to, um, be in that exploitative mindset and it's also going to support where you are.

And then, you know, You're also just more likely to stay in an organization that does that. So there's less turnover in that way, but also just a true feeling that, Oh, this place [00:36:00] cares about how I am and what I'm doing now where the difference right now and one day when we get lots of money, if you donors are out there, we would love to have your money.

We are nonprofit. We are. We can give you a receipt that says you tax donated or tax breaks for you. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Um, so our folks right now, right, right now aren't W two employees. So I do understand there's like when you get into W two and benefits and that kind of stuff, um, it gets a little bit different, but we still are going to maintain that mindset of what is best for you and supporting you and where you are in your life.

As a provider is going to decrease burnout is going to be supportive. It's going to be giving you what we are giving our clients. Shouldn't that be giving it to ourselves too? Cause Jen and I, so idea with our nonprofit, like I'm kind of acting as the executive director and she's like, um, the exec, you know, the president of the board, um, eventually, right.

Ideally, when we get more [00:37:00] things together, her and I will just share the executive director role, which is also like radical because none of us, Wanna work that hard. Well, and then we have different skill sets. I mean, to be an executive director, we've just seen, you know, over time, that's part of it. They get sober, burn out, and then they, you know, over utilize, um, their interns or like, you know, and they're, they're involved in so many things that they can't do any of them well, and we don't, we don't wanna do that.

So, so we'll just share the role, you know? Mm-Hmm. and. Um, it's just to get this mindset of collaborativeness and generally you guys are very collaborative. Yeah. Well, that's how you do the community stuff, right? If you want, like, you know, we got to be it. Yeah. Like the village, right? Like you need to change, right?

Yes. Yes. Absolutely. It's taking the village back. Yeah. Yeah. And trying to, uh, also, uh, offset the cost for clients, right? So that's why we wanted to be a nonprofit, but also we can bill insurance, which is, is great. And, um, specifically Medicaid. When you bill Medicaid, the clients don't have a copay [00:38:00] and we're still able to get paid for services in that way, but we're still avoiding the cost to the client because we don't want finances to be a barrier.

And even if you're in a comfortable. Place and maybe you feel like, Oh, financially, I'm comfortable, but it's still a barrier. When you think about your own care, like we find that moms and birthing people are going to take care of baby first and even partner for us and everybody else first when it comes to their themselves.

It's just not the case. And so it's a little bit harder to just be like, you know what, I'm just going to spend this money on myself. Even if it's just, but if it becomes the norm, right, if it becomes a norm to look into after like that aftercare is provided for mental health, you know, or for your body, we have like.

You know, a trainer that we work with that works to just rebuild strength after having um, right trainer, mommy, trainer, mommy, and, um, or like whatever, massage, yoga classes, like just there's all of you guys have, there's a nonprofit help supplement the cost of that. We would like to, that is, that's part of the goal, right?

As [00:39:00] like this. So I know where we've been all over the place. Good luck editing this one. I'm just going to let it go. Wow. Yeah.

Um, but like, uh, part of that fourth trimester program is not just the emotional wellness piece. And I like to call it emotional wellness versus like mental health. Cause mental health does unfortunately still have a stigma. Emotional wellness says like proactive, right? We're just, we just care about your wellness and we do it.

That is why we're there. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but also, um, in, you know, the, the mind and body stuff, right? So we have, uh, folks we know that work with do yoga and trauma informed yoga and yoga for trauma survivors, you know, specifically, um, and the, the personal trainer who, um, uh, works with postpartum moms and, uh, like a nutritionist we just met and, uh, postpartum doula.

What we would like is to have pools of money, right? Yeah. Uh, to. to say, like, this is the program. And so, um, we, again, we [00:40:00] need money so we can do that. Right. So we can, and we can offset the cost where we can with insurance. Like we can bill insurance. Cool. But what about those other programs? And then we're also supporting.

Yeah. So it's like this, it's, you see, it's just always give back, give back, coordinate, collaborate. Absolutely. It's everybody wins. You know, are you guys doing any like fundraisers or anything like that? Someone needs to. Well, this is so again, we both still have our own private practice, right? It's a lot.

Nicole trainer. Mommy did with the Delaware moms community wellness day fundraiser for you guys. She's great like that. She just was going to do that. Yes, she's, we're like what a year and a half and we're still, it's like a slow, we're like building the plane. Yeah. Absolutely. Good. Do we? I think so. Maybe it's because I see your stuff.

I see your stuff too. I was going to say, I did. I just talked to another colleague. We worked out. We're connected. He was like, Oh, I've been hearing about you from other, [00:41:00] you know, I really do think you guys have a good social media presence. That's the first step. And then you just have to get people. So whoever's doing it.

It's doing a good job because that is so bad because that's the thing, right? New moms. Sometimes they don't, they don't know that they need this type of intervention because they've never had the experience, but they see it on social media. They'll be like, Oh, that's me. Right. We all know those of us have already been and done.

We're like, Oh my God, I'm going to love this. Yes, but right when you're creating the, um, culture change, 'cause that's what it really is, right? Mm-Hmm. , you're really working against, um, the ideology of like super mom and hyper individuals and individualization and Yeah. So like, having just that awareness, like, oh, that's a, like, that's a idea.

That's novel idea. I just wanna show up. Like, we would love if the, I mean, put out another like. PSA. We'd love it if the hospitals were just like, oh, send the PSA errs. You know, like here we are, like call the midwife. I don't know. Um, but you know, [00:42:00] like it would be neat if that was actually just standard of care.

I know that's, that's a high shooting dream. That is her and I should have to leave, but it's to revolutionize. The birthing postpartum experience for Delaware families, but you know, it could happen because Oh, it will happen. It will happen because families are, and women, women specifically that are going through this.

And then I can't tell you any first time moms, you know, they, they go through us with pregnancy and then into the postpartum. And so we get to hear, you know, all about the birth and experience. And so many of them go, I didn't know what I didn't know. I had no idea. Yeah. Yeah. Be like this. And even though like they were very proactive in their health already.

So how much more proactive can you be? But when they keep saying, you know, I want it to be different my next time. And so they're making, once they realize that a lot more women are making very specific, purposeful decisions, that's who their provider is, who they'll go see, who they won't see and creating this own team.

And I think that's also working towards, because when enough people are saying, I'm not going to go to this doctor or this [00:43:00] hospital. Then they're going to be like, well, I need programs. And so then you can step in and be like, we can help. Right. Right. Well, you know, the federal government did say in 2020 that we have a maternal.

It's nice that they finally said that. I don't know. Millions of dollars, right? Where's our money? There you go, there's your money right there. Give me that money. Who's got it? You know what, it's like finding federal grant money. Oh my god. Well, you'll find all these other big corporations. I'm believing corruption of governance.

Well, having it, I mean, right? That the, our vice president, President even like came out and like declared it. Well, so many of those that money goes, yeah, I haven't seen a lot of those funds. They end up going with, they have a lot of other things tied to them. So they're really hard to get. You know, I think people who know how to do it can step in there.

We're like a little, yeah, the big nonprofits have like specific grant writers. That's all that there's people's job. That is what they do. And we worked with them. for them. Right. In the state. Anyway, you know, the, the bigger nonprofits [00:44:00] in the state. And so we, like Jen said, we're building the flame, flame, flame, sometimes we're building the plane while we're flying it.

And then we also still have to like, Earn money because we got stuck having to earn money. Yeah. Just have to like focus on private practice too. So. Well you still have to write work by, you know, and like, yeah. So we own and operate, get your mortgage while you're building. It's, we wish we've done it differently.

So so we, um, so we are doing that too. So it's like, it is a passion and we really want to, you know, do the work and we know we can see all like, I need to do that. I need you to do that. Like, I make our websites, I'm like, I gotta get in. to do that. You know what I mean? And we're doing all the things. Um, so we just love the overtime does pay off that time game if you're consistent with them.

We're just getting a little older. Megan. You are not. First of all, there's never, I was talking to actually the person before you on like keeping busy when you're getting older and like. My mom just redid this entire place and she's 67. All right, mom, does she want to write grants for free? Listen, listen, listen.

[00:45:00] She's not a grant writer. She's not small detail. She's her, her, uh, you know, it's people in the right spot, right? She's very good at talking to people. So if you want her to promote your cause, that's what you hire her for. She's not somebody to, uh, to do the grit. You put her out talking to people. She's good.

She's a, she's an extrovert. That's what she does. That's good. That's good. She's a people connector. Well, Jen, I mean, it's been a long affair. She had, you've had some of your own personal stuff that's, you know, been major that has kept you from engaging as much as you think that you would like to. But really the thing is, is that we are also, I heard that.

Sorry to hear that. That's okay. But it is for us because we're also trying to be mindful for ourselves what our capacity is because we did burn ourselves out and we're trying to pandemic and being on the front lines without, um, being like supported as frontline workers or paid or whatever. Um, Was really challenging for, for some of us seasoned [00:46:00] clinicians who probably, you know, who really were like, okay, this is our, this is our time.

Like, we're going to help all the things. And then we were like, oh my gosh, this is like, too, like, we can't keep doing it this way. But there wasn't like an apparent recognition of us as healthcare workers who were out there doing that. And mind you, we were supporting the healthcare workers who were out there doing that in addition to being the healthcare workers.

Yeah. Pandemic was really interesting for healthcare workers because it was like, who, who was going to be picked as the important people this week? Isn't that interesting? We never closed down. Like we saw we didn't need an entire time, but like we weren't obviously like, Front of the line in a hospital.

Thank God I would never wanna be there. But, um, we went to this for a career for a reason, but it is really interesting that it wasn't considered Mm-Hmm. Um, important even though there's so much things. And now we talked a lot about mental health, but then it was just sort of, it's a lot of it's the invisibility of it.

Yeah. Well now it's still like people say, it's so important, we're gonna get people to do this. And I'm always like. When the, when the government says, Oh, we're going to put people in schools and we're going to put them. I'm like, where? Cause there's not [00:47:00] enough people. There's not enough for you to put it in there.

And then they're like, well, I tried to call people, but they don't call me back. If you don't get a call back, like it's because we can't cause we're literally seeing people. Most people are full. Aren't they? Yeah. Most providers I know. We're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not, we're not doing.

And you might know this as a small business owner to like, uh, we're not paid as, as much as like our, um, the same counterparts, even like nurse practitioners also have a master's degree. We have a master's degree. We're not paid the same, you know, we're not valued as much. And so we don't have that profit margin.

Um, and so we're doing everything. I answer the phones. I do the billing. I, you know, see, I do not see the clients anymore. Um, but, and I'm, you know, we manage the whole practice like on our own cause the profit margin is not the same for other medical professions, but I digress. We're not here for that. Oh, right.

That's another podcast. Another talk. Another talk. Again. It, it, It just shows the importance of it, right? We say it's [00:48:00] important. We know it's important. Everybody's full. We're saying though, right? Like problem just with everything else. There's not like support around it, right? There's not help for, um, us to expand, right?

Like we weren't getting any relief money or whatever. Keeping people in the field longer, like how do we create those incentives? And that's what we're trying to do with the nonprofits is to say, we support you as a human being. And so even if we can't pay you 1 million that you deserve, um, we will, you know, support your work life balance in a meaningful way and want to, um, And we'll flex with you, you know, as you flex and we flex, you know, um, going back to the postpartum and the pregnancy, um, what is it that you would love women to know?

Like what are some empowering things? Cause preventative is the best option, right? Like we can always have, we need the space in the postpartum, but that we can help empower the woman before we get into the menstrual birth. Uh, what are some of the things that you wish women would know or you want to share with them here?

Um, I think definitely. I mean, you hit on [00:49:00] it too when we first started talking, it's like to develop a postpartum plan or seek out somebody to help you develop a postpartum plan like us, like us. Right. Um, because that can just be right. One thing in and of itself to help identify, um, what your thoughts are, what your feelings are, what your partner's thoughts and feelings are, who's going to be allowed to visit, who's going to help.

What are you going to do about eating, feeding baby, getting. to and from what, what have you. It helps you consider all these things before you're in the midst of it, right? So you can go back and look, okay, this is what you said. Is this going to work? Do I need something else? Um, and that, yes, it is literally like a very hard transition.

That's okay. Like just to know, like, right, you're, you're doing it. But right. But the support and the ideas that you, you don't have to wing it, you know, um, I think also, um, even if you think you're completely fine, um, and you know, mental health, you're, you're in [00:50:00] good shape. And maybe you've never had mental health issues before.

Um, I think Establishing care before you have a baby with us. Sure. We would love that. But with anybody, um, that you say, yeah, I'm just, I'm gonna, I'm gonna have a baby soon. And I know there's a big transition and anybody needs support in that. And, you know, counseling and, and, and their mental health therapy isn't just for folks who are struggling and, you know, And, uh, you know, going through it or having, yeah, some of the extreme things that we think of, like, I don't need that.

I don't need that. It's really, it can be really supportive and about maintenance as well. Yes, you have to have a diagnosis for us to bill your insurance. So, you know, um, but just like, no, no, it doesn't, I know, but there's a diagnosis. It is like there's diagnoses that are not ones out there. They don't have to worry about the diagnosis, right?

And it's not going to, you know, wreck your life to have a diagnosis. It's just, it's, it can be very much circumstantial, right? And often is circumstantial. What a lot of people's diagnoses tend to be circumstantial. And [00:51:00] so I would say, you know, establish care while you're still pregnant and, and, um, and then, you know, let them know, like, yeah, I'm having a baby.

I've It's, it's a proactive preventative approach and I'm sure I'm going to have questions or thoughts or feelings or, you know, or whatever. So let's, let's establish care ahead of time. Like I said, with us, with Willow Counseling's down there in Dover, and I think they're creeping up in Middletown also and their maternal health, that's what they do, you know, maternal mental health.

Um, and so. You know, whoever makes it. Maybe you already have a provider that you've seen and maybe you call that provider back just to be proactive about it because I promise even if it's just one time, you're going to need it. Yeah, plus it's more, it's so much easier to go ask for help for somebody you've already met.

Yeah. Right. Well, just like, it's not even help. Right. Just set it up for that. You to have an intervention even. Right. Like just somebody to come in and check. Just like you, just like you do for your baby. Yeah. Right. Like you're going to go to your. Yeah. Set it up in the same schedule as your pediatric appointment.

[00:52:00] Like that would be, we can develop that standard of care. Well, you set it up the same, you know, and then that will just be what you follow again, is like an expectation like that should be standard of care. It's not, but it should be. And so, you know, why, why not just have someone, you can bounce some stuff off of, um, and be supported in that.

And like, we, we, That is our primary mission. So yes, come on over to us. We would love it. Um, definitely help you get a postpartum plan. Yeah, it's good to be proactive. You'd rather have it and not need it than need it. And they're not alone in it. Like you, you were not the only one that's ever Experienced it.

So then there's lots, you're not alone. So if you think it's like just you, there's other people out there just need to connect with 'em. Right? Yeah. And then the providers at, at PSA, well, while it's not required that you're a mother, we all just happen to be Yeah. And so we, that's who's drawn to it, right?

Right. That's who's drawn to the work and there are a variety of ages and ethnicities and, um, and different experience life experiences. And, and that's extremely important to also that our Mm-Hmm. . Folks who work with us represent the community and [00:53:00] can relate on your, um, to you experientially, you know, um, everyone's different, but there's sure there's a desire to feel like you can see yourself and your provider.

Um, and it feels sometimes safer, especially with emotional health and wellness. So, um, you were here for that. Well, it's perfect. Well, we are over an hour now. Yeah, it flew by. So is there anything else you want to let you guys Left a lot there, but I think, yeah. Anything else you wanna leave the listeners with?

Um, so you can find us right now@balancemindjourney.com. It's balanced with an ed, um, balance mind, journey.com. Um, all of our serv, multiple businesses are there, but you can definitely find the postnatal services and then traditional counseling and some, uh, wellness, a holistic healing and, and wellness, uh, services there.

And then who our community affiliates are. Everything's on, on the website. You can follow us on social media. Um, at postnatal support advocates. Yes. The whole thing. Um, on Instagram and Facebook and it's a, it's a wild ride on the social media. You never know what you're [00:54:00] going to get. It's always me. I don't know if I want to say that it's not me.

No, it's good stuff. It's good stuff. You can own it. Yeah. That's good. Well, thank you so much for coming. Yes. Thank you for listening to the three Oh two podcast. I am your host, Dr. Frank Chi with my lovely wife and cohost, Dr. Megan Epps. We are your local nervous system based chiropractors who have a passion for contributing to our community and giving back as we have been so lucky to be blessed living here in Delaware.

We've created this as a way to support our community through showcasing local small businesses and people who are making a difference in Delaware. The best way for you to support those who have been featured and our local Delaware podcast is to follow, share, and like us over at Instagram. Our handle is at the three Oh two podcast.

If you would like to be a guest or sponsor, please visit our website at. At the three Oh two podcast. com. [00:55:00] If you are interested in chiropractic care or reaching out to myself or Dr. Epps, visit our website at Dover healthcare center. com and send us a message. We look forward to sharing more with you through this year and beyond.