PSP 36 | Evaluating Your Church Commitment: When to Stay, When to Go, and How to Leave Well

When do you stay and when do you know it's time to move on from your local church? In this episode we discuss how to discern when it’s time to move on, the different reasons we might be consider leaving and how to exit well with honesty, grace, and open communication. Almost every Christian has asked this question yet we don't talk about it enough. Join us in an honest and, hopefully, helpful conversation. 

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Transcript

Automatically Transcribed With Podsqueeze

Calvin 00:00:10  You're listening to the new reality podcast from Reality Church. Each episode is a conversation about what it means to be real people pursuing a better reality in Jesus.

Lindsey 00:00:25  Welcome everyone to the Pursue Reality podcast. It is so good to have you back with us in this series where we are talking about engaging with your local church, making your local church your church home and I have got some great guests. Friends. You guys aren't really guests, I guess, but your friends of the pod and.

Calvin 00:00:48  We frequent.

Lindsey 00:00:49  We frequent. There we go. Frequent the pod. Your frequent flyers here on the pod. And I have with me. Danielle. Danielle, introduce yourself for anyone that's new. Sure. I am Danielle. And I am our Leadership Development Director here at reality for both of our church locations. Awesome. That's in Lancaster City and in Hempfield here in Lancaster County. And then we have the one and only Calvin. Why don't you introduce yourself?

Calvin 00:01:13  Hey, everyone. My name is Calvin. I'm the worship pastor here at same church as these two folks.

Calvin 00:01:19  Reality church in beautiful Lancaster County, Amish country. Yeah, whenever I travel, I'm like, I'm from Lancaster, PA, like horse and buggies. And I'm like, oh, yeah. Lancaster.

Lindsey 00:01:30  Lancaster. No, that's not how you say it. That's another episode. We might need to have a whole episode on that. Oh yeah. Pronunciation. But we've been on this journey of just thinking about engagement with the local church. and I'm actually excited about this episode. We started this series about how to choose a church and how to, like, visit churches and figure out which one, you know, you should visit and start checking it out and attending and maybe investigating if that's going to be the place you want to make. just invest yourself. And this episode is kind of the bookend of that. And we want to ask a question that a lot of us ask at some point in our journey with Jesus, and that is that I'm thinking about leaving my church. Should I do that? Should I leave my church and go to another church? And how do I evaluate that? Because I think at some point almost everybody wrestles with this question, even if you don't end up leaving your church, I don't think I know many people that have long term engagement in the local church.

Lindsey 00:02:36  even some of our like, long term people here at reality, if you were to ask them, is there any point where you're like, thought about leaving reality and all of them be like, yeah, there were points where I was like, do I want to continue here? Is this like the place I want to keep investing myself? so we want to talk about that. And what are healthy reasons, what are things we should be aware of as we start the A discussion. I, we really wanted to maybe just highlight one thing and kind of, recognize it and maybe address it and then kind of set it to the side a little bit for the sake of our conversation. And that is toxic or abusive churches. Yeah. one of the reasons people leave churches is because they are in a toxic that maybe is an overused word, but it can be appropriate. and a church that has the culture has actually become toxic or the leadership is toxic. And by that we mean that they are abusive, coercive, manipulative in how they lead and how they treat people.

Lindsey 00:03:40  that they are immoral. They don't, lead according and in their own life, walk according to what Scripture would require. that can be they don't walk with integrity in their relational lives or sexual lives and how they handle money, all those sort of things. and unfortunately, a lot of people have experienced that. So painful. I know I've experienced that. Danielle, I know you're open about that, that you have experienced, an unhealthy, abusive or toxic church culture. And, when we talk, when we're, talking about, you know, should I leave my church or not? If that is true about a church, then the answer is yes. You should leave the church. If that was true about reality. Church. Pastor Joe or Pastor Cal or myself or Danielle, was coercive and toxic and it could not be addressed or it was dismissed as inconsequential. the immoral and how we handled money. Anything that you want to. Then you should leave reality church. Yeah, right. Sure. Absolutely.

Lindsey 00:04:50  We get an amen with that. And that's just so hard. painful. is traumatic. It is fully traumatic to be part of that and to invest your life and to experience that. And, Our heart goes out to people, if you're listening, that have experienced that, because our heart goes out to ourselves when we've experienced that, and we know what that's like. and so, yeah, I think just from the top of the podcast, we want to just say if that's the situation. we don't have to discuss it. The answer is, you should leave. Yeah. and then get help. Yeah. find, counselor or spiritual director, that can help you to heal and navigate that, and be able to move, through that as we're talking. With that said, as we're talking, we're not going to be talking about that and really discussing, you know. you know, it's a toxic. Should you leave or should you not? We're talking more about, more the other within the range of healthy reasons.

Lindsey 00:05:57  You might leave a church. and common reasons, maybe some unhealthy reasons. But generally at some point in your church journey, you get to a point where something becomes kind of disruptive internally. and it causes you with your relationship with your church and it causes you to question, is it time for me to move on? Do I still want to keep investing here? Is this where I want to continue? just for you personally, when you have a kind of experience, that disruption internally and you've asked that question, how have you navigated that? Maybe. Daniel, we could start with you. How have you kind of evaluated what are some of the reasons that that has kind of risen for you, and how have you navigated that?

Daniele 00:06:39  Yeah, sure. No thanks. That's good. I think, as I consider this, I think of sometimes for me and for others, some things can get disrupted just because we're upset. So first of all, we have to acknowledge that there's that level that really doesn't need our ongoing attention, but just to recognize I'm bothered by something.

Daniele 00:06:59  Something is bothersome here, and I always ask myself to wait on that, to give it a little bit of time and to notice. Does that disruption stick? Is it something where weeks later I'm still feeling disrupted? I'm emotionally bothered, you know, I won't leave me. I'm trying to pray and I'm still kind of coming up. Or is it something that. Okay, I'm really upset about this, but once I've talked with someone or talked it through in a healthy way, once I've brought it in prayer, it seems to kind of get less and less. So I think that's one thing to really pay attention to. Is this something that has just kind of come up and then it disappears, you know, little by little? Or is it kind of a this is really bothering me over and over and over again over time. And I'm not saying that we need to sit a long time and disruption, but I do think we need to pay attention to it because emotionally we can just get bothered by something and then, you know, in two weeks think, well, okay.

Daniele 00:07:51  Yeah. That's over. Yeah. So I think the first thing I would do is just kind of notice how much is that bothering me and how much is it really disrupting my thought and my engagement in church life.

Lindsey 00:08:01  And just kind of sitting with it a little bit?

Daniele 00:08:02  Yeah, I think sitting with things a little bit is good, especially in our culture, where we rapid response on everything. We're on social media, we're on, you know, whatever. And we're just mad. Yeah. That doesn't mean it's time to make a decision, but it does mean it's time to pay attention. Yeah. You know, and pay attention to how much that is actually bothering you.

Lindsey 00:08:18  Yeah, that's really good.

Calvin 00:08:19  Yeah, I would just agree and and and just say like, is it reactive? Like, you don't want to just make a decision based on a reaction. so it's definitely good to, to, to take time like a, a community, like a church community takes commitment. And that means embracing these moments of disruption and, and, and those questions and committing to giving it a process.

Lindsey 00:08:43  Yeah, yeah. I think one thing for, for me is, thinking like, is this a preference thing that is worth the disruption it will become in my life and kind of weighing that. because sometimes in preferences aren't bad. But to relocate my whole life to a new church, which will also have other preferences that I don't like. Sure, they'll just be different preferences.

Calvin 00:09:13  Yeah. More disruptions. Yeah.

Lindsey 00:09:15  But at the at the moment, I feel like those will feel easier because I'm so annoyed by the thing I'm currently annoying.

Daniele 00:09:21  Yeah, it's kind of like the grass is greener on the other.

Lindsey 00:09:23  Yeah. And then I get there and I'm like, oh, that wasn't. Yeah, that wasn't what I. Now I'm annoyed by this thing. maybe I should just work through that annoyance. but kind of weighing that, like, is it worth the disruption of my life to pick up? I mean, for us, a whole family. Sure. And to reinvest in a whole new community.

Lindsey 00:09:45  And we kind of have through the years, like evaluating that thought and sometimes thought, yeah, it is worth it. Other times we've like, no, it's okay. We we don't have to have, you know, those things. And we're we don't love it right now. But this season will pass if we give it a little time.

Calvin 00:10:03  Right. Yeah. And and I don't really know, like, what the right balance is. But asking yourself, like, why? Why do I come to a church? Do I come to like just get all my preferences or am is God calling me to this community? Yeah, for a purpose beyond my preferences. And I know there has to be a balance in that too, right? Because you go to a church because you want to be a part of a community that that helps you grow. Yeah, that helps, you know, teach your family and, and point your family to Jesus. And and sometimes your preferences sometimes can, can get in the way of that for you.

Calvin 00:10:47  But sometimes I think God asks us to lay those things aside, to be a part of a community For a different reason.

Lindsey 00:10:53  Yeah.

Daniele 00:10:54  Sometimes I think too, you know we jumped too fast to the question of oh should I leave. Like there's other steps in between. It's not just oh I'm bothered. Oh my goodness this made me upset. Even if it's something really big and important. And we're not talking about the toxic things, abusive things, even if it's something really big and important we automatically jump to. Now I need to figure out if I'm leaving or not. And I think it's helpful to ask ourselves if we've taken other steps. Yeah. in between those.

Lindsey 00:11:21  Yeah, that's really good. What about if the reason is not just like, preferences or. I don't like the way this church does worship or cal all worship pastors get. Unfortunately, that's one of our strongest emotional responses is worship. well, preaching to, they complain a lot about. Oh, sorry, that was neat.

Calvin 00:11:43  We'll edit that out and.

Lindsey 00:11:44  Edit that out. People do, and I get it I got preferences. Appreciate it. Hey, you're not the only one that has preferences. I sit in those pews, too. And chairs. but sometimes there's, relational things like conflict. How do you. And again, not toxic or abusive, but there's like some conflict and.

Calvin 00:12:06  Impasse, like.

Lindsey 00:12:07  Yeah, you're at an impasse, or maybe you're not at an impasse. You're just like things are, you know, kind of stirred up. Yeah. Relationally. What would you say? Like, should you consider leaving. What what would you do in that situation?

Daniele 00:12:21  Yeah. Well, I think Jesus was so smart because he told us this was going to happen. You know, like he told us we were going to get into relational problems. So on one hand, we shouldn't be overly shocked when we do that. Even in the church, even Jesus with his own disciples, in his own group of people who were with him closely, there were disruptions in relationships.

Daniele 00:12:41  So, again, I think sometimes the first question might be, wow, should I leave? But I sometimes I don't know if that's the very first question I think we have to ask ourselves, have I done the work or have I invited people into a process? Have I followed, you know, the passages of Scripture that tell me how to engage in conflict? What efforts have I put in to help bring healing and repair to this situation? And we can't do it by ourselves. That's very true. We do need people to engage with us. But we can ask ourselves the question, what have we done?

Calvin 00:13:16  You know, there's this unrealistic expectation that in the Christian community, like, we won't have that, like it's all, you know, sunshine and rainbows and yeah.

Lindsey 00:13:25  I actually think it's a sign of healthy community.

Calvin 00:13:27  I was yeah, that's.

Lindsey 00:13:28  Because if you actually belong to the church and have the relationships you desire, yes, then you will have conflict because you are getting close enough to one another where your little creepy crawlies.

Lindsey 00:13:41  Yes, or are coming out and you're starting to offend and.

Calvin 00:13:45  You're a little bit more loose.

Lindsey 00:13:46  With you. And I didn't like the way you did that. And I thought you would support me in this moment, and you didn't. And you have to do the work of going to the person and working it out. For me, it's really, that's. And this is what we teach at reality, not our invention of that trust is built through that process of some trust, and there's a rupture and then you repair. And that actually leads to deeper trust. Yeah, people, it's not a sign you should exit. the sign you should exit is if you can't repair. Yeah. And that that may be a sign. Sure. but to really, like, if you have some ruptures in relationship. Welcome to community. And here's a chance to see, you know, can we do the work of repairing it, humbling ourselves, hearing other people, you know, extending forgiveness, receiving forgiveness.

Lindsey 00:14:40  And, building that more beautiful community. Yeah for sure.

Calvin 00:14:45  And and not every relational, Tension in the Christian community is grounds for this is a Paul and Barnabas moment. We just need to go our separate ways.

Lindsey 00:14:56  Ways? Yeah.

Calvin 00:14:57  I don't think that's quite. It should be few. Yeah, those are probably pretty few.

Lindsey 00:15:01  Yeah.

Daniele 00:15:02  And I would just say, can I add one thing to this because I'm in the, you know, psychology world with the area that I'm studying in graduate school. And I think a lot of teaching that's considered pop psychology is just protect your peace. And if anything is disrupting you, then you need to be out of there and you need to guard yourself. But the teaching of the Bible is not that God is throwing us under the bus, but he does not say, just think of yourself first and your needs first. And if they're not being met, then you need to get out of there. Yeah. So we have to really discern between what we might be hearing in the culture and what actually is the scripture of how we're supposed to love that.

Lindsey 00:15:40  You're saying that because a lot of psychology is not scriptural, right? And it doesn't build resiliency. And if you don't have relational resiliency, you're not going to have relationships that you desire at least. Yeah. and the building, the muscles that kind of build those bonds, is, is a little bit of work. Yeah. And it's vulnerable and hard conversations. So that's really good.

Calvin 00:16:06  Right. Self-care is not not a part of Christianity. Like God calls us in to rest. But there is seven full days of that. Yeah. You know rhythm and it ha. There's an equilibrium. Yeah. And that and that doesn't mean that every single thing has to, has to be about my peace, my, my my good, my self-preservation.

Daniele 00:16:30  Yeah. Yeah. No.

Calvin 00:16:30  That's good. You have a a spot in that.

Lindsey 00:16:33  Like, if your boundaries with, you know, your tolerance level for imperfect people are so high, you will boundary yourself right into your own little community of one. Yes.

Lindsey 00:16:43  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. so what if you do have a Paul Barnabas moment?

Daniele 00:16:50  We actually do need to go our separate ways.

Lindsey 00:16:52  Yes, we actually do need to. Or you're just like, I think, and it's not for conflict, but you've you've discerned you've taken time. you've maybe asked other people for input and you've processed with wise mentors. I think that's a really good thing to do. and really process through it. And you are discerning that the Holy Spirit is saying, yeah, I think maybe the season is done here where you're currently in, in order to engage somewhere else. what are let's start with what are ways that you have seen people not do it. Well, and then we'll just talk about ways that people have done it well. But what are the ways that you've seen people not do it well, that you would maybe caution in a loving way caution people against?

Calvin 00:17:36  Yeah, I think we talked a little bit about it, like, like the disappearance of like just just going, no, no words spoken.

Calvin 00:17:44  I think Scripture is pretty clear that when we have these disagreements, that conversation should be had. and I think I am grateful that Scripture preserved that the story of Paul and Barnabas and said, no, they did come to a place. And and they kind of had a conversation and decided to go separate ways. Yeah. but if if there's just all the sudden. Yeah, then they just kind of fell off.

Lindsey 00:18:05  Disappear.

Calvin 00:18:06  Yeah. It's not. It's not a good way.

Lindsey 00:18:10  It's not a good way.

Daniele 00:18:11  No I totally agree with what Calvin said. And I think it's helpful to remember that we were somehow drawn to our church community. There was something about it that we felt like whether we were there for, you know, several months or a number of years that we felt connected to and that we wanted to be part of that community. And while it could be very grievous that we need now to leave. I think it's helpful to try to honor that. There was something good there and to tell the people who, whether it's our small group leader, maybe it is a pastor or somebody on staff, but whoever we were closest connected to that.

Daniele 00:18:45  Thank you. You know, for what was here. But now we feel for this reason, however deep we want to go into that. It's time for us to go to honor like Powell and Bonifaz had a conversation like there wasn't just a oh, and nobody quite knows where they were. Like, they talked about it. And then, well.

Calvin 00:19:00  They decided so said that this was.

Daniele 00:19:03  We're not recording gossip here. Yeah, we're we have a record of their conversation with one another. So there was I think there's if we can look at it as way of how can I leave? Well, by honoring what was good here and then that I also feel like it's time for me to go.

Calvin 00:19:18  Yeah, totally. And I think.

Lindsey 00:19:19  And who do you have that conversation with? Can I just quickly ask?

Calvin 00:19:22  Yeah.

Lindsey 00:19:22  Who who do you have that conversation with? Like who do you tell? Do you are your lead pastor? Are you saying like you have to sit down with your lead pastor or like, what's a healthy way to do that?

Daniele 00:19:31  Yeah, I think depending on, your level of engagement, like let's say you, you know, well, if you're on staff or something like that, but if you're a high level leader, whatever, then maybe it is somebody on staff that you need to, but maybe it's just at least your small group leader.

Daniele 00:19:45  Who were you connected with? Yeah. That you want to say? Or maybe your small group. You know, maybe the people who did you share your life with? Share your story with. Who did you serve with that you just want to say, hey, I want you to know why I'm no longer here. I don't want you to think I've disappeared. you know, you don't have to give everyone all of the information, but you should be talking to somebody. Yeah. Try to leave. Well, what does it mean to leave?

Calvin 00:20:07  Well, yeah, I it just reminded me of reading in, Celebration of Discipline. It talks about silence and solitude, and it's kind of related in that, like, I think not silence in the sense of disappearance, like, but silence in the sense of when, when an impasse is had and, and a, a, the vision has to take place. silence in that you're not overwhelmed with this urgency to to cover all your tracks and make sure that your reputation is preserved in this situation.

Calvin 00:20:44  I think that's probably not a good look if you're going around to people. I didn't do this. I was this, I was this, this and this. And then in the same side kind of what you were saying, you don't want to leave a place and then, defame that, that community. It's just not a good look.

Lindsey 00:20:59  It's it's not. I yeah. Yeah, it's just not.

Daniele 00:21:06  It's not and it's not a I would say it's not always easy. I do this about, maybe three and a half years ago, right before I came to reality and I was in that church community for about five years, I felt like it was really good. My kids were really engaged. I was engaged, but not to a super high level. but then through a process of discernment, talking with other people who were helping me discern that it felt like it was time to leave and there wasn't anything ugly or wrong or horrible. It was just time to go. And I remember having sitting down and having a conversation with somebody on staff and just sharing that and explaining and letting them ask questions, you know? And it was really good because they weren't trying to change my mind, and I wasn't trying to bash the church or anything, but just to say thank you for what was.

Daniele 00:21:50  But, you know, here's when our family will be leaving. Here's what that will kind of look like, you know, logistically. And yeah, honoring what.

Lindsey 00:21:58  You probably have a great relationship.

Daniele 00:21:59  With. Yes, I still see them, you know, in the grocery store and whatever I can I don't need to duck and hide in the next aisle. And they're not trying to look at me and think, oh, wow, there she is again. Yeah, yeah. We're still able to talk. And, you know, and I still bless that church for what they offered our family. And you know, where they are at right now.

Calvin 00:22:15  I also just want to say like an honorable experience, I've had people who have served on my teams like on in the worship and in tech area, and, they've left on healthy terms for good reasons, and they fulfilled their commitment even beyond what was like, expected. and that was always just very honorable. Hey we're leaving. But like I, I wanted you to know ahead of time but I'm, I'm happy to finish my commitment to serving this quarter for the next three months.

Calvin 00:22:46  That's beautiful. That's to me, that's above and beyond what would be expected. Yeah.

Lindsey 00:22:50  But definitely I think that leaving well can actually be such a blessing to the person leaving. And I don't think some people realize like it just feels like, oh my gosh. Like, it doesn't have to be that way. I'm like, oh, this is bad or embarrassing or people are gonna, what are people going to think of me? seasons or scriptural? Yeah, there's beginnings and endings. And I actually think for a lot of people, like you said, endings can be healing for people. It can. It's healing to me when people come and tell me, hey, we're leaving the church. it feels so honoring. To be honest, I feel very honored that they would tell me. Yeah. To have that openness. I remember my husband and I were part of, a church for about 5 or 6 years. We were really involved. and the church did. They did not believe in women in ministry.

Lindsey 00:23:43  Which was fine. We actually knew that. And I was like, I don't want to do anything anyways.

Daniele 00:23:49  I was really for me.

Lindsey 00:23:50  I was busy in other ministry parachurch organizations, so I was like, this is totally fine. I served in the Kingsmen, which they approved of and it was all good. And it really I people listening might be like, you did what? It was a it's not a core salvation issue for us. Yeah. so I belong to a church that didn't believe in women in ministry. And our kids had we started sending them to this other school and all their friends went to this other church, and I actually was willing to start being more involved and use my giftings more. And we just we prayed about it for a good 6 to 9 months. And my husband, I sent him because when he did go, he's like, oh, I'm gonna reach out, reach out to one of the elders of the church and just said, hey, these are the reasons why.

Lindsey 00:24:37  And our kids are really connected with, like, all the kids with this other church, and Lindsay would like to be more involved, and they totally blessed us. It was healing. Yeah, it's beautiful because I'd been part of churches where if you leave, you are shunned, cut off, shamed. You've left the, you know, the one true church sort of thing. And it was I'm just so glad that we did it. And we did it well. We communicated openly. We told them the honest reasons why we were leaving, and it was still have relationships with those people. Yeah. reach out to them. Wonderful people that disagree with us on some things even. And it was such a blessing to our hearts to leave. Well, so. Yeah. I just encourage people, if you're listening, if you are thinking of leaving, if you're at reality church, give us a call.

Calvin 00:25:21  Yeah, let us know.

Daniele 00:25:22  We'd love to hear from you.

Lindsey 00:25:23  We'd love to. We would.

Lindsey 00:25:24  Honestly, You'll be blessed by us. We want to bless you. but if you're thinking about leaving your church or if you ever reach that in the future, I hope this would help you, to do it in a way that is, not like a dark period of your spiritual walk, but actually, We see it as a season of blessing in transition and really wonderful. So I hope this helped you as you're navigating church life. And it is our desire for every Christian to become truly part of a local church body. It doesn't have to be part of reality. Church, wherever you are, to really plant yourself there, to be part of Jesus's mission, to be using your gifts and to be loved by others also. So we hope this helps you in that journey, and we hope you continue to listen and come back to our next episode. We'll talk to you later.

Calvin 00:26:15  Thanks for tuning in to the Pursue Reality podcast. Reality church is a local church in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. To learn more or get connected, visit us at.