PSP 38 | Finding Church Again After Church Hurt or Spiritual Abuse

In this episode of the Pursue Reality Podcast, pastors Lindsey, Calvin, and Danielle dive into one of the most tender and often misunderstood topics in the church today: healing from church hurt and spiritual abuse. Together they unpack what these terms really mean, share their own honest experiences, and offer wisdom for anyone wondering if they can ever trust a church community again.

Rather than rushing past the pain, the conversation highlights the slow, grace-filled journey of recovery—emphasizing the need for patience, supportive community, and spaces where questions and doubts are safe. With both empathy and practical guidance, this episode points listeners toward hope and renewal, reminding us that even after being wounded by leaders or systems, it is possible to experience restoration, healthy relationships, and a fresh vision for faith.

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Transcript

Speaker 1 00:00:10  You're listening to the new reality podcast from Reality Church. Each episode is a conversation about what it means to be real people pursuing a better reality in Jesus.

Speaker 2 00:00:23  Welcome everyone to the Pursue Reality podcast. It is good to have you back. My name is Lindsay and I'm one of the pastors here at Reality Church, and I have with me Pastor Calvin.

Speaker 1 00:00:35  Hello everyone.

Speaker 2 00:00:36  And Danielle.

Speaker 3 00:00:38  Hello, hello.

Speaker 2 00:00:39  And we're, I'm really excited for this episode because we're talking about something I think that is really, precious to God's heart and talking about a part of our journey that is important to him, and that is healing from church hurt, spiritual abuse and engaging the church once again.. And this is definitely something that, sadly, is more relevant, and more applicable to just a great number of people than I would like, I think than any of us would like to be true. And so I hope that if you're listening and as you're listening, if this is a part of your story, I hope this, helps you to feel seen, helps you to feel hope again.

Speaker 2 00:01:25  and gives you maybe a little language and a little, some tools for a little bit of a path forward, in your journey as you are healing from what you experienced. So I thought as we were starting, that maybe we could just define terms a little bit to just give us a little bit of, a definition of terms and what we're talking about. Does that sound good to you guys? Yeah.

Speaker 3 00:01:49  Yeah. No it's good.

Speaker 2 00:01:50  Yeah, I so I'm stealing this or borrowing this from a wonderful wise woman, doctor Christine Edmondson. And and she. I heard her teach one time on this topic, and she distinguished between church her and spiritual abuse because often we kind of put those two terms in the same conversation, but we don't distinguish them. And her definition was super helpful to me. She said that church hurt is a misalignment of expectations or a failure of expectations, and spiritual abuse is a misuse of power to misuse people. So spiritual abuse is a misuse of power to misuse people. So what do we mean by that? She really helped to say like church? Or is that misalignment or unmet expectations? And it's very real hurt.

Speaker 2 00:02:41  It can be very painful. it might be something like, you know, I thought I was going to lead men's or women's ministry at my church, and they told me I was going to do that, and I was preparing for that and serving like crazy. And then when it came time to put in place a new leader, I found out it was someone totally different. There is a misalignment of expectations or unmet expectations or, I went through a miscarriage or my mother died, and I expected that the church would come around me in a certain way, or at least call me and give me support. And it just didn't happen. I felt so alone. That can be very hurtful there. Not, crazy expectations or appropriate expectations. And they weren't met. And that would be church hurt in a spiritual context, where spiritual abuse is, an elevated, escalated, situation where you actually have the misuse of power to misuse people. you're normally not spiritually abused by just a random person. It's normally someone in a position of leadership.

Speaker 2 00:03:48  Not always, but normally. And were they're misusing their power in order to misuse you, to manipulate you. To Coerce you, where it's not just, you know, expecting my leaders to communicate differently to me, this is definitely like, an elevated form of that. And that can come in many, in many ways. I don't know what examples you have I'm thinking of that can be anything from teaching harmful theology or hearing the voice of God on your behalf, you know? Yep. Very workspace. You don't meet God's. Why aren't you obeying God more? Or you know, the Lord told me to tell you, you know, that you should be doing this. it can be shunning or isolating a person. That would be spiritual abuse. They're using their power in the community to misuse you. Or demanding silence.

Speaker 1 00:04:42  Yeah. And it doesn't have to be somebody who's necessarily in an authority position even. It's just if somebody's.

Speaker 2 00:04:48  Not formal, but they have some sort of, maybe authority in the community.

Speaker 2 00:04:52  Influence. Yeah. An influence.

Speaker 3 00:04:54  Yeah. That's a good word.

Speaker 2 00:04:55  Yeah. Or it would be crossing stated scriptural or even legal relational boundaries. Right. that's where we see those really just horrific stories of pastors. pursuing, having sexual or emotionally over involved with someone. someone else in the church that's not their spouse. or and oftentimes, you know, again, the Lord told me just all these horrific stories that we hear. and I actually would add a third category to that. So we have church hurt that's unmet or misaligned expectations. You have spiritual abuse. I think then there's that third category, which we're not going to go into a ton, but we're it's just normal relational rupture. You talk about that a lot. Danielle what does that mean to you when we just say normal relational rupture.

Speaker 3 00:05:48  Yeah I think it's a good category to at least bring up today because in human relationships even I should say in healthy human relationships. There are going to be times where we just run into troubles with one another.

Speaker 3 00:06:00  We're going to run into conflicts. There may be even bigger conflicts, but that doesn't mean that they're abusive. You know? It's just that we are have a different.

Speaker 2 00:06:08  Even that it's church hurt.

Speaker 3 00:06:09  Yes. Or even that is church hurt. We have a difference of opinion or we don't see eye to eye on something. you know, you may have a group leader who's been insensitive or didn't quite meet your need in a particular way, but it was just like something that happened embarrassed.

Speaker 2 00:06:23  You in front of.

Speaker 3 00:06:23  The group, right?

Speaker 2 00:06:25  It wasn't. Yeah.

Speaker 3 00:06:25  Those kinds of things that happened to us in church. And I think it's helpful to just recognize it's a normal part of relationship, even though we do have emotions around it. Yeah, but it's a normal part of relating to one.

Speaker 2 00:06:35  I want to highlight what you said. What you started with saying was it's a normal, healthy part of relationship. Yeah. Can you kind of expand on that?

Speaker 3 00:06:42  Yeah I can it is because I think we can go into, especially as Christians, that we're just going to be kumbaya with one another.

Speaker 3 00:06:49  Nothing's ever going to go wrong. And we can just look at the example of Jesus in his own 12 that he chose, and the kind of troubles and conflicts that they had. So if we can at least come in with an expectation that everything may not go perfectly. I am not perfect, first of all, and neither is the leader or the person I'm working with or whatever, and that it's healthy, that we may have some conflict and it's what we do afterwards that makes it even healthier. Like, okay, we can repair this, we can talk about it. You know, if Calvin and I have an issue, we can come together and chat and forgive one another and move forward. that that's healthy. That's actually expected.

Speaker 1 00:07:27  Yeah. There's like somewhat of an overlap between relational rupture and church hurt because it's it's the church. Church is more likely to happen when you're in close relation with your church or with the leadership there, or with whoever's in a, you know, a position of influence in the church.

Speaker 1 00:07:46  The closer you are to that person, the more likely you are to have or experience church hurt. It's like, you know, with my wife, I would say I experience, I'm I'm a victim of marriage hurt because I have I have daily expectations that that, are at the risk of being unmet in college.

Speaker 3 00:08:05  So that's a really good point.

Speaker 2 00:08:07  Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 00:08:08  And maybe the more we're in isolation and pulled away than we can, we hold that perfect bubble. But that's not what we want. We want community and we want to be in relationships. So there's going to be some hurt.

Speaker 2 00:08:17  It is that we're healthy relationships. And here we're talking about in a church family is not the absence of conflict. It's the presence of conflict or relational rupture, we're calling it, and the ability to work through it by myself, not just the other person, but by myself and the other person. Right. and if we see relational ruptures, we shouldn't panic and be like, oh my gosh, this, you know, terrible place here, right? Right.

Speaker 2 00:08:43  Yep. This is this is part of life. That means I'm in a church or I'm involved in my church or I'm married.

Speaker 1 00:08:49  Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

Speaker 2 00:08:51  Yeah. So as we are Thinking, thinking about this and just all the categories, that we're covering, but maybe focusing more on church hurt and spiritual abuse. What are some of the long term effects or impact that you've seen in people who have experienced, either church or spiritual abuse in our lives? Like, how does this affect us? We we experience this, we go through it. Maybe we leave or move on from the church that we've experienced, but we don't move on from those experiences. What have you guys seen, whether in your own life or others? Is there a residual effect of that in our lives? What's the impact of that. Because it's something unique.

Speaker 3 00:09:39  I think I mean sometimes in the worst of situations people equate all of that with God. And then they, they just totally lose faith not only in the church but in God himself.

Speaker 3 00:09:50  Yeah. And that's very hard experience. I don't think it's impossible to recover from, but it's a very hard experience. But I think even for everyone in general, anytime we've been hurt in any relationship, but especially in the church, I think we just become more sensitive, a little bit more hypersensitive to the next church or the next group of people, or the next small group or whatever it may be. So, I think we should be aware of that. That rises up in us.

Speaker 1 00:10:15  Yeah, absolutely. This just makes me think of, like, just being aware of the fact that, like, and I might get a little Bible here in that, like in the Old Testament, like the Israelites were like, we want a king, we want a king, we want a leader, we want a leader. And God was like, okay, like you're going to have a human leader like this is he's not going to love you like I can. He's not going to lead you like I can.

Speaker 1 00:10:38  And I think we still, like, experience the effects of that today. Like we want. We do. We desire spiritual authority and leadership in our lives. That's why we go and seek it out. but it's just being aware of the fact that, like, this is I'm going to be under human leadership and it's flawed. and so I totally agree with you. There's this thing that happens that once somebody experiences either spiritual abuse or, or, or church hurt is they do they, they, they put it on God a little bit. And, and you know and, and kind of equate him to that, that leader. and. Yeah. And as a, as a pastor, as somebody in, in a position like this, you, you can kind of start to see those people who walk in. It's almost like a little bit puppy like, you know, like a little bit scared puppy. super sensitive just kind of always on guard and, and kind of waiting to, for something to happen.

Speaker 1 00:11:35  Sure, sure. Something painful to happen. you see, a hesitancy to get involved, a hesitancy to, to open up and and get plugged in, but still also like this weird willingness to like this desire.

Speaker 3 00:11:49  Well, there, there. So, you know, so, yeah, the fact that they even show up to another church or something like that is pretty significant.

Speaker 2 00:11:55  It is interesting because I do see that like they come and again, I'm not talking just about other people. This is part of my own story. But they there is a, a you can see the woundedness.

Speaker 1 00:12:09  Yeah.

Speaker 2 00:12:09  Often. Not always. and so there is this hesitancy. And it's interesting because I've often seen this interesting mixture and people with this story where they're very hesitant, but yet they still carry almost a little bit of the guilt and the shame from that previous system. And so they still feel this guilt of, I should be involved, I've got to do the right things. And they there's almost this conflict of like, I they're sitting on the edges.

Speaker 2 00:12:37  I'm not sure. Yeah. oftentimes they'll tell me I, but I know I need to be serving. I know church is important. I know, you know, I got to get involved in the group. And I'm just like, let's just, you know, slow this down. because they feel a little guilt about that. Yeah. I'm guessing they were from a system before that was like, you don't do those things. A lot of motivation through guilt and condemnation. Yeah. but then when they do get involved, there is a hypersensitivity. Yeah. because it's touching real wounds. Sure. And they're like, it's that trauma effect of it pushes those little spots and you're like, it's happening again. Right. It's all happening again. And I've seen people where it's, they hear a sermon and the pastor says something in that certain tone, but they don't maybe consciously realize, or maybe sometimes they do, and they're like, I don't know. That felt very manipulative to me.

Speaker 1 00:13:32  Yeah.

Speaker 2 00:13:33  Well, well, there's a reason for that.

Speaker 2 00:13:35  And whether they can. Sometimes I'll ask them why. Well, because that's what people do to manipulate or. Well, no. Maybe because that's part of your story.

Speaker 1 00:13:44  And yeah it's the lens that they, they view things through. because of their experience and, and what they, maybe they even grew up in, or they spent a lot of time in a certain culture. Now they have a lens that they view things through. We all do. You know. Sure. that it causes us to see it either positively or negatively. Right. You know, somebody might have the ability to hear a sermon and and remember. Oh, that reminds me of this spiritual abuse that I've endured. Or they could hear it the other way and feel that kind of guilt and shame because they're used to that culture that they were in where they're like, oh, I need I need to respond. I need to forgive. I need to like so there's this.

Speaker 3 00:14:27  I need to take action. Yeah. Do something.

Speaker 1 00:14:29  So there's there's these lenses that that we don't realize that we're we're viewing things through. We all have them through the experience that we've gone through. We bring that.

Speaker 3 00:14:39  Yeah I was going to say I think it's important to realize that all of these things are normal human responses to pain so much you know. and so there is a grace that we need to give others. you know. If we're a leader in a church or even just a small group leader, or just another person in the church, to give grace to that and a grace we need to give ourselves. I and like you, Lindsey, is part of my story too, where I just remember, oh, I'm being really sensitive to some of these things because this is what happened. And so I'm I was self-aware enough about that. But I also had good people around me who I could talk some of those things through. because it's really hard. It's really hard. There's a grace that we need to just kind of walk through that because when we've been hurt, you don't just leave that and say, oh, wow, that was terrible, and then jump right into the next situation.

Speaker 3 00:15:31  That's not healthy either. So yeah.

Speaker 2 00:15:34  And I think that is important that I find that part of, the journey is not just finding a healthy community. it is actually working through what you've been through because you can find the most healthy community. Let's some imaginary church that's like 99% perfect in all their ways, and their 1% is like they serve muffins on the wrong sundae.

Speaker 4 00:16:01  Like.

Speaker 2 00:16:02  Yeah, right.

Speaker 3 00:16:03  Or their blueberries instead.

Speaker 2 00:16:04  Of their blueberries or raspberry. And you told them you're allergic to blueberries, like, but they're just perfect in every other way. In that scenario, if you if we have not worked through it's we're still going to experience that church not as healthy.

Speaker 4 00:16:20  Yeah. Right.

Speaker 2 00:16:20  We're because we carry that with us into into that new system. and we, we don't see things neutrally. And that's how humans are. That's.

Speaker 4 00:16:33  Yeah. That's okay.

Speaker 2 00:16:34  Like you.

Speaker 4 00:16:35  Said, like.

Speaker 2 00:16:36  That. We're human and we have to work through that.

Speaker 1 00:16:39  Yeah. And generationally everybody like you don't have to go through a specific church hurt or spiritual abuse in a church to, to, to realize that you have something that you bring because, like millennials and Gen Z seem to have this, like, assumed mistrust of leadership.

Speaker 1 00:16:57  And I just, I don't have, like, data or research to back it up, but I just have questions of like, I wonder what experience in that generation is. Is it the the rise of, what's the word when you walk away from the faith?

Speaker 2 00:17:13  deconstruction.

Speaker 1 00:17:13  Yeah. Is it the rise of deconstruction in the church? Is it the the rise and fall of church leaders? That are platformed, like platforming has gotten more common with social media. Like you see the rise and fall of leaders and and stuff like that. Has that impacted and you know, the generations before. I'm a millennial. The generations before me seem to have more of an assumed trust of a pastor, which sometimes seems to heighten those expectations, which makes them more susceptible to church hurt.

Speaker 4 00:17:43  Yeah.

Speaker 1 00:17:43  So it's just being, you know, aware.

Speaker 2 00:17:45  Yeah. And it's it's really good what you say because it can be, maybe boomers and X. That's me and Danielle. You're x.

Speaker 3 00:17:53  Oh yes I.

Speaker 2 00:17:53  Am.

Speaker 2 00:17:54  The forgot of it. The forgotten generation. People are like what's x I never.

Speaker 3 00:17:58  That's why it's.

Speaker 2 00:17:59  Called talk about them.

Speaker 1 00:18:01  we forgot to name them.

Speaker 2 00:18:03  We are really susceptible because we do have a high inherently a higher respect of leadership. but millennials and Z I think are susceptible because they have an inherent suspicion of leadership. Yeah. And we you think suspicion will protect you. Suspicion is not a healthy grid. It will not protect you from hurt. And you'll you'll go take that elsewhere. Yeah. but neither of those are the, the way forward. Right. Of just blind trust their leaders God put them in place. They've just got to do what they say or their leaders. So we don't trust them. They must be corrupt because of what I've seen. And what we all see is terrible and is real stories, right? But neither of those are the picture of where we want to be. So where? What? What does it look like to rebuild trust in a spiritual community after Herder betrayal or to re-engage? Like, what would you.

Speaker 2 00:19:02  What would you guys say some of those ingredients are that you would want to highlight? That's a big it's a big question.

Speaker 3 00:19:11  To sit with that question. Sit with that question.

Speaker 1 00:19:14  Yeah. There's a there's a part of it that's just like, man, this is the, the the human experience that like we're just kind of plagued with on Earth and that like I just keep thinking about how trust, you know, you always hear trust is given not earned. But there's also like there's a balance of it. And it's just like, you know, you are you do kind of wait to earn that trust because it doesn't feel safe to just give it. But also, you know that you do have to give it because people can't really win trust without being given the opportunity. To trust. Yeah. It's just like kind of the experience of having human Leader. So yeah, that's what's the question. Steps to engage the practical things.

Speaker 2 00:19:55  Yeah. What does it look like to from what we're talking about the the reality of this abuse and her the impact of it on our lives.

Speaker 2 00:20:03  Like how do we approach church or community or even God himself? Like, what are some things that you would that you see in people that do seem to like be able to navigate this and heal. Yeah. What would you say Danielle.

Speaker 3 00:20:16  I would say.

Speaker 2 00:20:16  Sorry.

Speaker 1 00:20:17  No that's that's great. Please help.

Speaker 3 00:20:20  I think you're doing fine. I think something that's really important, I'm thinking back on my own story that, some of the support that I received was that this stuff takes time. That healing is a process. And even if we sense God just, like, wow. You know, now I can, you know, engage back in church or go back to church again and all those things. It's still a process that there are going to be things that all of a sudden heighten our emotions. And we think, oh, no, you know, here we go again. I'm back in this situation, but that the Holy Spirit is helping us even over time. And I'm not saying that time is the healer.

Speaker 3 00:20:55  We have to do the work. And part of the work, I think, too, is having, good friends or accountability or maybe even a counselor or somebody who's supporting us through that journey, that we're not going through this in isolation, that we have some sort of community, even one other person who understands what we're going through. Yeah. but that we also offer at time that is going to take time for us to become aware of what we're sensitive to, take time for us to even acclimate to a new community or new church. But I think, what I was saying earlier about someone who's coming to church, they're staying engaged like that is kudos to you for showing up to a new church, a new community, and even scoping it out. Yeah. if you're in that situation, just hats off to you because that is that is huge. That's significant. So figuring out ways to even stay engaged with the community, maybe you can't go every single Sunday, but you're finding ways to stay engaged.

Speaker 3 00:21:49  And to show up, I think, is important.

Speaker 1 00:21:51  Yeah, and it helped the way that you framed it. Like who? Like who? Have you seen walk this out? Yeah. That you feel like they did it? Well, like, I think of somebody who who was a part of this community for. For a while. they, they, they exercised or they demonstrated, like in a, in an appropriate way to share their story. in a way that like, I, I didn't know their story until I sat down one on one with them and they shared their story. Not in a sense that was like, I, I need you to know this because I'm this, this and this. But just because we had developed some level of relationship where they were like, I want you to know this as a level of like accountability, even for myself, to help me navigate this. So, like, you know, somebody who walks this well is you, you find and you look for those moments to appropriate, appropriately share your story in a safe space to, to seek kind of accountability, make somebody aware of it, but also welcome them into to speak into it as you navigate reengaging into a new community.

Speaker 2 00:22:57  I, I think that definitely I would echo, echo that and the, I always tell people because this has been good for my own life, is that you want to engage church again at the speed of healing. And healing takes time. So your engagement is going to take time. Like don't and but do engage if you can if that's the right step. But don't do it at that speed. So you don't want to like under engage and just write it all off unless appropriate. Like if you have a purpose in that, but at the same time, you don't want to be like, walk in and you're like, I know I got to be involved. I know what you know. And this church is different. I know that I'm like, people actually have told me here at reality. I know this church is different and I looked them in the eye. I'm like, you've been here three Sundays. You don't know? Yeah, you literally don't know. Yeah. Like engage with us.

Speaker 2 00:23:57  Get involved in appropriate ways. Slowly over time we're like do it differently. Don't just blind trust again or or totally be like, all churches are terrible because not all churches are terrible. There's healthy earth in other churches. There's healthy enough. Yeah, you're not looking for the perfectly healthy, but you're looking healthy enough, which means you can work out relational ruptures. And the gospel is being lived out, ownership and repentance and care. I would also say that sometimes the first communion you engage with is I have noticed this personally is not your long term community. Yeah, yeah, I have just noticed that over and over. Yeah. and just.

Speaker 3 00:24:41  Maybe your healing community.

Speaker 2 00:24:42  It might be your healing community. I have noticed there's like almost and like, somebody needs to do research on this. There's like a bridge community and often that community. I know this was true for me. The first church that I got engaged with was a Lutheran church. Now, I came from a very, spiritually abusive Pentecostal.

Speaker 2 00:25:05  It wasn't always spiritually abusive, but it, it got to that point because of certain dynamics. It was super Pentecostal hanging from the chandeliers. Now that doesn't make it spiritually abusive. Right. But that's what is church culture was together with that. So for me to walk into another Pentecostal church was rough. Yeah, it was rough because it was just triggers and buttons. It was for alarm fire. And it could have been a healthy church. Sure. I just couldn't do it. I had never walked into a liturgical, historic liturgical church in my life. But boy, oh boy, it was amazing.

Speaker 1 00:25:40  Refreshing, I'm sure.

Speaker 2 00:25:41  Yeah, we went there for like three years, every Sunday, the same liturgy, the same prayers. It was predictable, and I needed predictable. I needed to know the bathroom was going to stand up and say something weird from the pulpit, a new revelation from God. And it was my bridge church, and it just.

Speaker 3 00:25:58  How.

Speaker 2 00:25:58  Powerful and it was I was.

Speaker 2 00:25:59  My husband and I were the youngest people in the church by a good 40 years, probably. I ate casseroles with 80 year old women named Mabel. Yes, and boy, I just soaked it. I soaked it in. It wasn't changed. They were changing the world in their own way. Yeah, they changed my world. Yeah. And so I would just encourage you to. To just don't think this is my church. And I'm going to get, like, speed of healing and maybe be open that there's a bridge, a bridging experience and, and maybe it ends up being your long term church. Maybe not though.

Speaker 1 00:26:32  Yeah, I even think that there's a simplicity in what you said. of like doing it different, like, like in, in my world, I work with a lot of tech and whenever we encounter a problem, we say, all right, let's change the process. Let's change the way that we approach it. Like let's do something different in the process. So maybe that's a good step.

Speaker 1 00:26:53  Like if you've experienced church hurt or spiritual abuse and there's a bit of a pattern like do it differently this time, maybe it is like I'm going to try a different, church tradition. Yeah. Like I'm gonna. Experience it in a different way. Or maybe it's, I'm going to approach it in a different way. I'm not going to get plugged in right away like I usually do or. Just change the process. Just a, just a little bit.

Speaker 3 00:27:17  Yeah I love that because even when you were talking about engaging, I just even think practically like I came from a high engagement where I was super involved, major leader in the church doing all these things. And then so I wanted to go to the opposite of just, I'm doing nothing. I'm just going to sit here and stare at all the people. But I just picked things that were just like, you know, you're just serving for the day, you know, or go serve food for, you know, the youth group or something like that.

Speaker 3 00:27:44  Just small little thing. Just practical things. Short term things. So even when, you know, we say engagement, it doesn't need to be mirroring what you did before. Yeah. And maybe that's not even the next step. Like, you know, Calvin was saying change up the process. I came I remember when I came here, I just thought, you know, I've never done anything in outreach. Like, I'm just. I'm joining the outreach team, you know, like, what are they about? You know what? And just finding something different to do.

Speaker 2 00:28:08  That's really good. So what would you say? Just, as people do engage a new church, what should they be looking for? because in some ways, church hurt and especially spiritual abuse almost shatters our looker. And we're like, it's a little broken. We're seeing everything through the lens of hurt. So that's part of the reason why we want to take it slow. We want to heal that, be able to see things a little bit more accurately in that new space.

Speaker 2 00:28:38  But would there be things that you they should look for in as they reengage a new church that you would just say. These are the things that a healthy church generally has. again, there's no perfect formula, right? There's no. But there I, I have seen a lot of people, if I can be honest, they go through one dysfunctional system and then they jump right into another dysfunctional system like, oh, man, I wish I had known you and said, red flags everywhere, right when they call the leader of the apostle.

Speaker 1 00:29:13  Yeah. Okay, so I was going to say something similar, like some churches have.

Speaker 2 00:29:18  I'm not joking.

Speaker 1 00:29:19  Yeah, not joking, but some churches have a high culture of honor towards leadership. And there's health in that. So I want to be careful on how I say this. But like when you do come across a church that has a very high culture of honor towards their leadership, I would make sure that the leadership also is is has an appropriate amount of vulnerability and transparency in that they are human and that they are living out a broken testimony just like the rest of this group of people.

Speaker 1 00:29:52  because I, I have just seen it that like we do we honor these leaders so so so so so much and they're human. Yeah. They're sinful. Yeah. And, and they can be tempted to, to take that and hold it and, and be less transparent and step on that more and more. And, and to me that is, pump the brakes. That's a little bit of a red flag. So I, I would look for a community, especially if you're coming from a place of like, I've been hurt by a pastor and leader. They've abused me in some way. or I've had misaligned expectations of a pastor and leader. just keep an eye out for, for that high culture of honor environment. And if it doesn't make room for pastors and leaders to be honest and, and share their lives, then that might not be a place. Yeah. For, you.

Speaker 3 00:30:38  Know, that's really good. That's really good. I'm thinking of just, Because, yeah, I grew up in a culture where there was that high honor.

Speaker 3 00:30:47  but then there was also this sense of that person could be questioned, too. Like, there were people around them who supported the pastors of the leaders or whatever, who supported that person and who could ask hard questions. Or, like you said, being vulnerable even within a church meeting or something like that. where there is not hidden like, you know, sometimes there are hidden agendas and nobody knows. Like just there's only 1 or 2 people discerning and, you know. So if you're a person who's into the structure of the church or the that kind of thing, but looking and seeing are there healthy places for the leadership to have accountability, you know, who supports these people who are humans and not just in holding them accountable to doing the right thing, but just supporting them as humans, as, you know, in their marriages and their families. And you know, who are the people who pour into them and also can ask those hard questions. so I know sometimes I've heard people say, just like looking at the church and just saying, okay, where are the spaces where the leaders are held accountable? and I say, where are the spaces where the leaders also have support?

Speaker 2 00:31:51  That's good.

Speaker 2 00:31:52  That's good. Yeah, I would say I would add to that, any environment that's, high charisma centered.

Speaker 3 00:32:00  Yeah.

Speaker 2 00:32:01  It's where people are like, you got to come here this pastor. Now if the pastor is like please don't say that about me. That's one thing. But if the whole church or spiritual community is built around the personality and the focus is on a singular person.

Speaker 1 00:32:17  it's going to fall.

Speaker 2 00:32:18  It's going to fall, it will. Yeah.

Speaker 3 00:32:21  And it's really the only way for it to go.

Speaker 2 00:32:24  Yeah. There's one way direction that's going. Yeah, it'll be great for a little while. You don't know how long? Yeah, for a little while. I think also, it's really good to know how to people get in and how can people get out?

Speaker 3 00:32:36  Yes, I was going to offer that.

Speaker 2 00:32:37  Yeah. And ask people like, you can even ask church leaders, so how do people become a member? And if people decide they want to move on from this community, how do you encourage that to happen? And if you get funny answers or hesitation, like there should be a real ease in the community.

Speaker 2 00:32:54  good outside relationships. I love it when I hear churches are like praying for other churches blessing other churches. but that kind of were the only way we've got the the because we'll never say we have the only revelation from God. Right? We might, but they will behave in those ways. so I think that sort of, because generally unhealthy environments are very hard to get out of. and it's easy to get in behavior. Hard to get out. Yeah.

Speaker 1 00:33:23  They also just add like that approach those conversations graciously because even me, if somebody came up to me I'd be like, oh, this is a very difficult question. I want to say the right thing and I can and, you know, even that in and of itself is probably a good not to pump my own tires for being.

Speaker 3 00:33:41  No, no. Pump it up or.

Speaker 1 00:33:43  Other like even, you know, if leadership handles those questions honestly and and graciously like, yeah, that's a good sign.

Speaker 3 00:33:50  Yeah. Sometimes I think you'll see it in the community.

Speaker 3 00:33:52  Like it's not always at the top. If it's really an unhealthy culture, you'll see it in multiple different places. Yeah. So you can see it in groups so you can see it, you know, on different teams or whatever. I also think too, of how much is the church trying to dictate what people are doing and how they're living their lives, or are they inviting you to discern, like presenting Scripture and saying, here's how we're supposed to live. You need to discern, you know what this means for your family, what it means for you or for your marriage or whatever, or how much they're just telling you this is what you need to do. Yeah, this is how you need to do it. Yeah. You know, that's good.

Speaker 2 00:34:26  there's a lot more we could say on that, but I think those are some just good little thoughts. And again, take time. You're not going to discern that in a week or a month. but so don't throw your whole life into a church that you visited twice.

Speaker 2 00:34:41  Just take your time. Get involved in appropriate ways as you're healing. What are some final words that you would say to anyone that's listening? And it's like, oh, I identify with a lot of what's being said here. what words of hope would you give them as we close this off?

Speaker 3 00:35:00  First I would just say, I'm so sorry. Like, this is not God's intention for the church. It's not what he intended for leaders to be like. and so what you have experience is true, that it's hurtful, and maybe it was even harmful in different ways. And that. Yeah, I'm sorry for that experience and hope the best for healing. but yeah, sorry that you even had to experience that.

Speaker 1 00:35:26  That's good. Yeah, I would echo that too. It's like, you know, you feel like a sense of righteous anger. Like when, you know, you feel like you do your best to be a leader and to be a shepherd for a group of people. And it's just so.

Speaker 1 00:35:44  It's so deflating to hear other leaders take advantage of that and and do wrong. And the local church is is God's plan to save the rest of the world and to hear people experiencing something significantly less than that, is very sad. So I, I too am am sorry. And I would just I just pray that every person listening would be able to find somebody or have somebody in their life to walk through this with, and not just somebody who just validates everything that, that, that you're feeling, but somebody that, is empathetic towards it, sympathetic, but also is able to share the real their, their real take because how important that is. We're we as humans have so many emotions and emotions are real and we all experience those emotions and we all are, led by our emotions or misled by our emotions. And it's important to help to, to have somebody who can, be a little bit separate from emotion and speak into a situation.

Speaker 2 00:36:53  Yeah, I think I would end with just telling people one thing that was really encouraging to me.

Speaker 2 00:36:59  and I think one of the number one reason, number one reasons I didn't leave. God. because it really I do consider it, miracle in many ways that I never lost my faith. And that was scripture. And I for some reason stayed in Scripture throughout my whole story, even though it was so weaponized and just terrible ways. but it was like the Holy Spirit opened my eyes and as I read through scripture, what I saw was astounded me. And it was that God did not hide the misdeeds of his people. He uncovered them and he recorded them in Scripture. He wasn't like oh, church hurt, spiritual abuse. We don't want to record that. It might make me look bad. He was like, no, let me tell you what Abraham did with his wife. Let me tell you what David did and how I dealt with that and confronted that. Like just on and on. Let me tell you what the kings who proclaimed to be my representatives, you know. Yeah. And it encouraged me to stick with God, because whatever people told you, God can handle it.

Speaker 2 00:38:13  And he can come into your life and you can see Him as he truly is and not conflated to what his people did. And because he did that in Scripture, he literally is like all the worst things my people did. I'm going to record that down. I'm not afraid how it will make me look because I, I am not that I'm different than that. And I think I just want to encourage you. You can hold on to your faith, and it actually can be so much better than you ever imagined. It can be a place of hope, a source of joy and encouragement in your life. It doesn't have to be a source of pain, and we truly believe that for you. and so stick with him. Yeah. He he wants to reveal himself to you. He wants to heal you and bring you through to the other side. Yeah. So thank you so much for listening and engaging this hard conversation. we pray that God would restore your the fortunes of Jerusalem in your life.

Speaker 2 00:39:15  because that's what he's all about. So bless you, and we hope to have you back next episode.

Speaker 5 00:39:21  Thanks for tuning in to the Pursue Reality Podcast. Reality church is a local church in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. To learn more or get connected, visit us at pursue.