PSP 39 | Why Our Church Talks About Money

Money and church—it’s a topic that can feel awkward, confusing, or even taboo. In this episode of the Pursue Reality Podcast, Lindsay sits down with Lead Pastor Joe and Executive Pastor Mike to discuss why we talk about money on Sundays and beyond.

If you’ve ever wondered why churches talk about money or if it is even healthy to do so, we hope this conversation helps you understand our approach and heart on this important topic.

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Transcript

Speaker 1 00:00:10  You're listening to the new reality podcast from Reality Church. Each episode is a conversation about what it means to be real people pursuing a better reality in Jesus.

Lindsay 00:00:28  Welcome everybody back to the Pursue Reality podcast. I am excited for this episode because we're going to talk about something that people don't like to talk about, which makes me strangely excited. It's fun. It's always fun. And we're going to be talking about money and specifically talking about money in the church context. It's a topic that can feel really complicated. Often it's been mixed and kind of weird ways and but it's something that's important to God and something that we actually talk about regularly here at Reality Church. So I pulled in some expertise voices. Our our lead pastor Joe is with me. Why don't you say hi, Joe.

Joe 00:01:11  Hey, everybody. Thanks for having me on the podcast today, Lindsay.

Lindsay 00:01:14  Yeah, and I have our executive pastor, Mike.

Joe 00:01:17  Hello, everyone.

Lindsay 00:01:18  And I'm excited to have them. Part of the reason why I brought you guys in is that we do talk about money regularly as a church, but one of the things is behind the scenes, like, not maybe in a Sunday morning setting.

Lindsay 00:01:35  we talk about it too, and we talk about, sermon series and why we talk about it and how we do. And I often walk away from those conversations where we share our hearts as pastors and as staff, thinking, I wish the rest of our church could have heard this conversation. And I actually think a lot of people would have liked to hear the conversation, to not just hear maybe what the Bible teaches, but also what are our hearts on this issue? Around tithes and offerings. Raising funds? I think a lot of us wish money would just go away and it didn't exist or it didn't have to be part of a church, but it's part of a church, and it is a part of our daily reality. And so we wanted to talk about that. And I wanted to start with you, Joe. How does it feel? I don't think I've ever heard a pastor ask this question. How does it feel for you personally to navigate the money topic as a lead pastor of a local church? Do you love it? Do you dread it? Do you feel anxious about it or tense doing it? Like full honesty? How does that feel for you?

Joe 00:02:39  Yeah.

Joe 00:02:40  You know, I was thinking as you were introducing us, Lindsay, how this is a topic nobody likes to talk about. And there's something about those topics that I generally enjoy. And I think maybe I'm not alone in that, but there's a part of it where, you know, if we don't like talking about something, then this probably.

Lindsay 00:02:56  Makes you want to talk about it.

Joe 00:02:56  More. Yeah. There's the topics that we probably should talk about. And and so to bring up the subject in church and a church that we believe no subject is, you know, taboo for the most part really, we talk about a lot of different things. is not as stressful for me as it used to be, and I think it's because I've sort of shifted from my thinking on it, where it's not really about me anyway. It's more about the people and what's helpful for for the people. And I know that our money is one of the things that is. So, kind of I would almost use maybe the term, causes the pain and problems and stress and destruction in our lives, and, and we don't learn about in other places.

Joe 00:03:44  So the local church is, is thankfully, a place that does talk about it.

Lindsay 00:03:47  So that gets you excited for it.

Joe 00:03:49  So yeah, I mean, I get excited about it. I mean, I don't like the looks, you know, like we're we're you've you mentioned this before too. You're you're preaching and people give you the looks and looks aren't fun. But no.

Lindsay 00:04:01  Does that does that. Are you able to brush those off? Or like people say.

Joe 00:04:05  I just don't look at them anymore.

Lindsay 00:04:08  You just look at the smiling faces. You keep saying, keep going.

Joe 00:04:11  Look at the robins. Look at the lenses. Look at the mix. They're smiling. And then I'm okay.

Lindsay 00:04:16  Does let me just push it a little bit. Does it stress you when people say, oh, it's that all the time. But sometimes people say like pastors or churches are just after your money, which is a stereotype, but when it's directed at you, it's not a random comment. How does that feel for you?

Joe 00:04:31  Yeah.

Joe 00:04:31  I mean, a little bit because it feels like not just as the church after your money, but, Joe, you're after our money. You want the money for something for you.

Lindsay 00:04:41  Like it's going to your pocket.

Joe 00:04:42  Yeah. You know, or somehow it's it's floating. My it's making me somehow feel more important or something. I don't know what it is.

Lindsay 00:04:49  Summer home and winter home.

Joe 00:04:51  Yes. Let's bring that. So that's a that part's always a little weird for me, but, it's, you know, I also think it's good that people are expressing how they feel about it.

Lindsay 00:05:01  Yeah, yeah that's true Mike. You're you're a numbers guy. And I wanted to ask you about that because you've been here since the start of the church, and you've always kind of been involved in the financial side of reality. Church. And I wonder what drew you to that? How has that been for you? Not just because you were a math teacher for many, many years. So you're a numbers person, but why? Why have you been drawn to be involved in that area of the church?

Mike 00:05:30  Yeah, that's a great question.

Mike 00:05:31  And it dates back long before I became a math teacher. I've always been interested in money, and I remember I think it's in large part just the way that God wired me, because I remember back in elementary school, just being fascinated with how people make money. what you can do. I, I had many businesses, back in those years, I remember, I would go to, CVS and buy the multi packs of gum. Oh were you one of those. I was the guy that always had the gum available for sale for my elementary school classmates.

Lindsay 00:06:08  Yeah.

Mike 00:06:09  and so yeah, just lots of things like that. By the time I graduated high school, I probably had tried, I don't know, a dozen different little business ideas. I love that, and yeah, just fascinated by how it all works. And I think, God puts that in us to to understand how things work and to be productive. I think that's part of the the Great Commission to, yeah, figure out how the world works and, and and, steward it, steward it.

Mike 00:06:38  Well, yeah.

Lindsay 00:06:39  Yeah. With wisdom. With God's wisdom. I'm thankful for you every time, especially when we go through our budget process.

Joe 00:06:44  Oh my goodness.

Lindsay 00:06:45  I think thank you Jesus.

Mike 00:06:47  I love making a good spreadsheet.

Lindsay 00:06:49  You're a pastor. I've never seen anybody like it that can do these spreadsheets.

Joe 00:06:54  It's amazing when there's good order to it, how much peace it brings you.

Lindsay 00:06:57  Peace and trust that we can have that order and answer questions and know where money goes. So it's not this we like to talk about it, because it's important to God in Scripture. Actually, that's not just our idea that we think, oh, God. You know, this says it's important or, you know, it affects people's lives. But we talk about the fact that money is actually mentioned in Scripture. Just a massive amount of times, actually 3400 times Scripture, there's passages or verses in relation to our money or material possessions, which is more than faith and prayer.

Joe 00:07:39  Isn't that something.

Lindsay 00:07:41  Which is so interesting? Why do you think that is? Why did God do that? Like nothing in scripture is an accident.

Lindsay 00:07:47  It's, you know, God breathed and set up. Why do you think, Joe, God did that?

Joe 00:07:53  Well, it's one God created, I think, in many ways, money, right. Like the concepts behind it and the order that it brings it to a society and the way it gives us purpose or need for purpose or whatever. so he knew there would be problems with it too. Yeah, just like all the other gifts that God has given us, there's ways to handle those gifts or operate within them that are positive and not sinful or good for us. And there's ways that aren't good for us. And so money, I think, is similar in that way. the verse that we, we all talk about here together, the three of us on our staff a lot is and when Jesus said that our, our hearts follow our treasure. Yeah. So you just think about that. And, and we realize that as people, we are drawn towards what we put our money into.

Joe 00:08:43  That's how powerful it is in our lives. It's kind of crazy to think about. Yeah, but there's probably nothing else that has that kind of power over us. Yeah, that you can take something that's I guess it's material and you place it in certain places Your heart tends to fall where you place it, so that means it has quite an influence on us.

Lindsay 00:09:03  Yeah, it's sobering words to think about that and to think, I can look at where I spent my money that month. And Jesus literally says, that is revealing something about your heart.

Mike 00:09:17  So many of our decisions involve money. Think about how you're going to spend your time. Has a huge impact on how much money you make and and everything that you buy. every possession that you have, just money is involved in all of those things. And, and there's ways that we can work that honor God. There's ways that we can, use our possessions or resources in ways that honor God or don't. And so money just is tied up into all of that.

Mike 00:09:46  All of the decisions that we make are or most of them involve money in one way or another.

Lindsay 00:09:53  So would you say this is probably why it feels like this topic feels a little touchy or taboo. Like is the fact that it's touchy to us, revealing something about how we're kind of wired as humans, that money isn't this neutral thing. Would you? Would you say.

Joe 00:10:10  That? I think so. I really do, and I think, it's hard for us to in many ways, take our lives and say, God, here's my life. Do with it as you please. and we start as we follow Jesus, some things get easier and we get kind of cleaned up in different ways. There's still those things, but we get a little bit cleaned up. But we all, we have these things in our hearts that are more private. Those things we don't like to talk about. Yeah. That oftentimes whether we still, hold on and say, I know best, I know better, God, I'm not giving this to you.

Joe 00:10:50  And oftentimes that's packaged. I'm not giving this to you, God, that it's packaged. And the church just wants my money or these people are going to waste it or they don't understand what I need. You know, so. But it's a hard thing.

Lindsay 00:11:02  Yeah, it's a really hard thing.

Mike 00:11:04  We talk about being a steward or. Yeah. Shepherding the the resources that we have. All of those things are, are what we're called to. But I think with money it it's so quickly shifts to this is something I'm managing to. This is mine and and I think it just gets, gets hooks in us in a way that, you know, all the other vices, you know, we can fall into them. But that that mindset of this is mine. And, and now I have to make a decision about whether to give it to God or what to do with it. But I think it really pushes our buttons when when money is discussed in church because we feel like, yeah, this this isn't an area that's surrendered to God.

Mike 00:11:48  It's hard to feel that way about about money.

Lindsay 00:11:51  Yeah. And I think to it, it's it is something we work hard for money. We put it in a lot of time for it. And so there's kind of it's easy to get into that mindset of like I earn this and like this is mine to have. And to have that biblical mindset of God has entrusted this. While we did work hard for it also. So when we, talk about money in a church and here at reality, what's what's the goal? Like what? When we talk about it and people are listening to you, Joe, talk about money. What would you say? Paint a picture of what you're hoping for. More money in the offering plate. More like. And again, that sounds cynical, but like what? What is what is the goal here? Like what? What do you think ultimately we're striving after as a church?

Joe 00:12:49  Yeah. I think, you know, I just coming off sabbatical and, had a lot of time to reflect and think about what's most important.

Joe 00:12:56  And for me, when I get below all the stuff, all the surface stuff, for me, when I get down to what matters most, it's that, that I'm the people in our church, my family, of course, that we know God more, that we know God, and that I'm doing what I can to introduce more people to know God. Yeah. So those things are for me, what what matters most in life. And, knowing how significant money has a play into our lives and how much of a pull it has, for me, the ultimate outcome is that people would know God more through better biblical ways of stewarding their money. so there's there's things that are tied in there, and it doesn't mean that God loves us more if we give more. That's not what I'm saying. But when we are able to take our money and place it under God and say this, God, what do you want to do with this money? there's a part of us that is is, free from controlling it.

Joe 00:13:56  And, so that's that's the hard I would definitely say. I mean, of course, I'd love when the offerings go up in the church. I think that's healthy. I believe in our church. I think it's doing a great thing. And, it doesn't happen without people's giving.

Lindsay 00:14:10  Yeah. What would you say to that, Mike?

Mike 00:14:13  Yeah, I mean, I concur with everything Joe said. I think the two sides of it is, we want people to have the right heart with their money before God. And so when we talk about money, it's it's all about framing our heart and how we think about money, how we relate to God with our money. But then the other side of that is we're on a pretty big mission, an important mission to reach people in this community that don't know God. And and every part of the operation of the church requires money, to turn on the lights to, to buy a building, to pay staff, all of the, the ministries that we operate, every, every part of it takes money.

Mike 00:14:53  And when a church is in a strong financial position, you can make decisions about how to move forward, how to advance the kingdom of God in a way that is just different. When you're when everything's tight, when it's really hard to financially, it's it's hard to do what God's called us to do. Yeah.

Lindsay 00:15:13  Yeah, that's really good. I, I do think sometimes when people say, you know, churches just want money. At the same time, I, I, I would ask people sincerely like, yeah, like I don't think that's a bad thing. Like because the church is here to serve people, to just make disciples, to take care of widows and orphans, to provide meals for the hungry. Like I have no embarrassment that we want to be fully funded so we can do more of that. I don't think that's a bad thing at all. Obviously there's ways to mismanage it and just build your empire, but I don't think anyone would accuse majority of churches of doing that. They're a blessing to our local communities.

Lindsay 00:16:03  what about paint a picture of what, Scripture teaches and how you think people, should, according to biblical wisdom, kind of order their finances.

Joe 00:16:15  Yeah. You know, I, I think that when we, I would say previously, before I follow Jesus, I thought, when I was working for an engineering firm and then I was a teacher, I was thinking, I get paid money, and then I do what I want with it and I spend it. And, if I would, if I was at a church, if I had something in my pocket, I might, I might give something that was left over. And, in following Jesus these years and realizing that, what I have, I'm giving back to God. So he's given me the ability to earn money. And so we see, I think generally in Scripture, kind of a simple guideline. I think this is a Dave Ramsey thing too, which is, you know, it's funny, but, where I believe God leads us to, to start with the money that we have that we were receiving give first, because in that way we're saying, God, you're my priority.

Joe 00:17:07  And we ask God, what is it that you're leading me to give? And so we do that first. it's best if we save second. Yeah. You know, depending on your income level, savings can be can be difficult. And, this all could be difficult. Depend on your income level, but, to save second and then you decide how much you're going to save and then live off the rest, and you try to orient your lifestyle under what is what is left over. Yeah. I believe that in time, people that operate with that structure, find a tremendous amount of peace. And actually, even I would say, and these are dangerous words for me to say, but I would believe that they are actually prospered in ways that without that kind of order, they're losing part of what God wants them to be blessed in than because things are disorderly. So I don't mean prosper. Like you're going to get rich if you give. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying it's an attitude, a posture of the heart, a living in peace.

Joe 00:18:03  That is the more significant ways that God prospers us when our finances are managed the way he's,

Lindsay 00:18:09  Yeah. Healthy detachment from striving.

Joe 00:18:12  Good. Lindsay.

Lindsay 00:18:12  Yeah, good.

Mike 00:18:13  I'd like to just give an encouragement to to parents, especially parents of younger children, that this is something you can instill in them very early. Yeah. I remember my parents taking an egg carton and cutting off the last two egg cells so that it was easy to picture the ten parts and, you know, take a dollar and get ten times. And like this one is your tithe. And you can separate it however else you want, but, separate a savings block and, and live on the rest block. There's lots of creative ways that you can do that, but kids can understand this at a very young age and with small amounts of money. And I think it makes a big difference as, as you, like for adults that already have mortgages and debt and like a messy financial picture, it's hard to take steps toward this.

Mike 00:19:01  And it can still be done. But if you can get kids started off on the right track from the very beginning, it's it really sets them up for success.

Lindsay 00:19:09  It's really going to bless them. It's really good. Mike. Mike I want to talk about then maybe like corporately when like we don't just randomly as a church. well sometimes if there's a need we do. But we're not just like oh my gosh, let's get money right now. Like and tell people like, you got to give a bunch of money or like it feels like chaos. Maybe it doesn't feel like chaos, but people don't maybe know kind of the thinking of our approach that we actually have an approach to how we encourage and guide people to consider their ties, which we would call it the first 10%, and then offerings, which we would call in our language. Anything beyond that. Is that accurate? Thank you. how do we approach or would guide people on giving to the church, maybe giving to, like campaigns or, extra opportunities to give.

Lindsay 00:20:08  Like, what is our approach and how we are going to guide people or what they could experience at our church?

Mike 00:20:13  Yeah, we've been through a couple of financial campaigns as a church and, gotten some really good guidance in this and learned a lot through those processes. but basically our approach is with a, with a campaign with extra giving. We've done year end campaigns. We try to give a compelling vision of what are we trying to accomplish? What is the need here? What is the how will this money be used and try to make that as clear as possible to people that that this is what we believe God's calling us to do as a church. And so we feel like our job as church leaders is to explain that to people as clearly as possible. And then after that, we we ask people to pray about it. Like take, take your financial situation to God. Seek him his will. And what is God calling you to do? So really ask God. God, what are you asking me to do in response to this need that's in front of me? And then just obey what God tells you to do.

Mike 00:21:09  So we really expect God to to give people an answer to that question. And, and then it's on them to, to be obedient. So sometimes that compelling vision can feel like pressure. And that's never the intention. But we are trying to make it clear, like we believe this is a big vision that God has given us something that we are really called to do. And so if that feels like pressure, then, you know, we apologize for that. But but we feel like that's our part in the process. And then after that it's it's really between the person and God to, to seek what God's going to do and, and then do it.

Lindsay 00:21:43  What would you say, Joe, if someone feels like they struggle to know the difference in those moments of and maybe they're like, yeah, this is a compelling vision. but feeling like never enough, what I give or whatever. Like, what's the difference between good conviction and by conviction, I mean a conviction of this is what God's guiding me to do, and I want to do it.

Lindsay 00:22:06  Versus condemnation and pressure. How do people discern and navigate that?

Joe 00:22:13  Yeah, I think, Lindsay, if I could just follow up to what Mike was saying and, I'd actually like to ask you that question, if you don't mind. I think you're going to be you're gonna have a clear answer, then I would. About the difference there. but I you know, a lot of times I'm casting the vision when we're doing certain things, and, and, and I this is kind of hard for me to describe, but there's something inside of me that when I start thinking about people and their eternities. And I know how I was before Jesus and what changed for me and knowing him that I have the strongest burning. Yeah. Something in the spirit of God. Something in me that I just have to. I have to tone it back often because I know I sound so, so weird, and people are probably.

Speaker 5 00:23:04  Like, oh, let it out.

Joe 00:23:06  But I so when we start thinking of that topic, I what I would appreciate about, us as a church and just as maybe, you know, speaking kind of directly about it.

Joe 00:23:17  So what I would appreciate about that is, kind of get me out of it and look at what the Word of God says, and think about people and think about, someone's eternity compared to the normal things that we spend our money on. And when we sort of step back and we just look at that and we say, okay, this is very clear, black and white from Scripture or what this is about and how I'm using my money is kind of black and white in comparison to it. What really matters? And again, I'm not trying to be silly and say, give everything I'm saying. Let's open up to God in a way that's serious. Like, let's seriously try to hear what it is that he's saying and remove any sense of how it's being communicated. Yeah, because it matters so much.

Lindsay 00:24:00  Yeah. And different people hear different communication. It is is difficult as a communicator. One person hears passion and heart and another hears pressure. And depending on the person. And it's good to hear your heart.

Lindsay 00:24:14  Like that's not your intention.

Joe 00:24:16  Yeah. It's not.

Lindsay 00:24:17  Yeah. Yeah.

Mike 00:24:18  I, I think following up on your question about people that might feel guilty or might feel pressure. I think it's important to always remember that we get our significance in Christ so we aren't loved more or less by God based on the money that we give or based on really anything that we do. If we if we're following Jesus, if we put our trust in him, then that's the basis of our significance. And everything else can be framed around that. And I think to pay attention to your emotions when you're hearing a message about money or anything else. Like I think God speaks to us through that. And so to to dial in and say, God, what what are you trying to say to me here? I think that's a healthy process, but I don't think anyone. I don't think anyone intends shame or guilt in response to this. And so I think if if you're feeling that, like, that's probably not God speaking.

Mike 00:25:19  I think God God loves all of us, right? Exactly. As we are all broken and messed up the way we all are. so we know that God loves and accepts us, and and then he's calling us to something. And so how do we move towards that in a way that that, answers that call?

Lindsay 00:25:38  Yeah. And I think you can expect from us that, passion and conviction. I hope people would expect that. Like, do we believe in this or not? Do we think it's worth finances and investment in generosity or not. but you should never expect from us or any church that you're in. If you're a part of another church where it's, you know, if you give God's, you're going to be God's extra special person, or, you know, God's going to be so distant from you because you're not giving or, any of that. That's manipulation. Like you said, Mike, like Christ is everything. And he it is because of him that we have full access to God.

Lindsay 00:26:20  And what we give, doesn't make any difference in that. But it's complicated and it's complicated. Our language falls short, though. It also says there's a special opportunity that when we trust God with our finances, there's something special in that experience. I've experienced that. but church leaders will never, you know, treat you different or or tell or condemn you or say anything like that, like that's condemnation. but conviction and passion, I hope people would expect that. And they will get that.

Joe 00:26:51  yeah. We're not adding anything to the gospel.

Lindsay 00:26:53  No, nothing at all? No. Or have tears in our church of, you know, the special givers get all the special treatment. We look it up in our system. Should I reply to this phone call? No, I mean, that's just. But hey, there are churches. They're rare, but they're out there and it's really painful. Is there any final thing that you, either of you would like to say, as we've had this conversation and we're wrapping up.

Lindsay 00:27:18  Is there anything that is on your heart that you would want people to hear?

Mike 00:27:23  Well, I mean, for me, tithing was something that I started, you know, as a child, my parents kind of explained it to me, trained me in that way. And it's something that I've done, you know, for my whole life. And I would say, looking back, you know, I can just see how God kind of leads and guides through that. I think it changes your perspective of material things, and I'm especially thankful for it because I think that's maybe a weakness of mine to be a little bit focused on the material. And so that part of my life, I think helps rain, rain in those natural tendencies.

Lindsay 00:28:01  Discipline.

Mike 00:28:01  That.

Lindsay 00:28:01  You can check.

Mike 00:28:03  so, so yeah, I would say I mean, obviously it's not a surprise that God had it figured out from the start, but I think when we embrace kind of God's plan for the how things should work, it really does make a difference.

Lindsay 00:28:15  That's great. What about you, John?

Joe 00:28:16  Yeah. That's great. Mike. yeah, I think, along with, in addition to what Mike was saying, I think for many people, something we don't often talk about in the church is what happens when we're tigers for, let's say, a period of time and our income level keeps going up to where, tithing doesn't feel like it's much of a sacrifice anymore. And, because I believe that the Lord often calls us to do above the tithe and we can get into a trap where we are just, going through sort of the the motions of our religious duty. Yeah. And it's very transactional. And, and so I would say for, for people that are in that upper income area that they've been doing that. And that's not very sacrificial. I've just recently felt very challenged by the thinking, if, if some if God were to if we were to look at how God created the universe and he created money and all that, and and if we were to think that actually our percentage giving wouldn't increase when our income increases.

Joe 00:29:28  I would be surprised if that would be what the Lord's heart would be for us. and again, that's not God doesn't need our money. that's for us. That's for a healthy. walking this life out with money, especially when we have a lot of it. because it's definitely a common thing that the more we make, the more challenging this becomes. And so I think I would just leave it. Leave us with that, that I want to challenge those that are in higher income streams to evaluate what this means for them. And what does it mean for for them to look at all their finances and say, God, what are you asking me to do with this? That's beyond what I currently am.

Lindsay 00:30:07  I think that's really good. I think that's good for all of us. That money as we started this conversation. Money has this unique, place in our lives that affects and reflects our hearts and our devotion to God in ways that lots of different areas don't at all. I think Andy Stanley put it so well, he says that your devotion to God is illustrated, demonstrated, and authenticated by how you handle money.

Lindsay 00:30:36  It's illustrated, demonstrated, and authenticated by how you handle money. and Scripture says that through and through, it is a special area of our life that can be a blessing. But it's it can be, an idol. It actually says in Scripture, and it can really impact our lives in ways that are just hard.

Joe 00:30:55  Very subtle.

Lindsay 00:30:56  To very, very subtle. And, we want people to be free and to be at peace and to experience the joy of generosity in their life. And so I hope this conversation was helpful for you. It was helpful just for you to hear from, two of your pastors, as they're thinking a lot about money and managing it and trying to steward it to the best of our ability, what God has entrusted to reality. Church. And yeah, I hope this was helpful to you. So I hope you come back next time to the next episode of Pursue Reality Podcast. And thanks for joining us.

Speaker 1 00:31:31  Thanks for tuning in to the Pursue Reality Podcast. Reality church is a local church in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania.

Speaker 1 00:31:36  To learn more or get connected, visit us at Pursue Reality.