PSP 53 | An Honest Conversation on Pain, Chaos and Peace in our Relationships

In this bonus “after the message” episode, Pastors Lindsey and Joe continue the conversation from Sunday’s Advent sermon on Peace Instead of Chaos. They unpack what it means to be a “chaos creator,” what it’s like to live with one, and why so many men resonated deeply with the idea of inner chaos. Together they talk about safety in relationships, the connection between emotional and sexual intimacy in marriage, and why real change is usually slow, messy, and shaped in community. You’ll hear honest stories, practical questions like “What would love require of me?” and encouragement to get help instead of giving up. They end by pointing us back to the gospel—grace for chaos creators and receivers—and inviting us to pray for and invite others to encounter Jesus this Christmas.

Watch Pastor Joe's full sermon, "Moving from Chaos to Peace" here.

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Transcript

Speaker 1 00:00:09  You're listening to the new reality podcast from Reality Church. Each episode is a conversation about what it means to be real people pursuing a better reality in Jesus.

Lindsey 00:00:28  Welcome everyone to the Pursue Reality podcast. We are here. And by we I mean myself, Pastor Lindsay and I have with me the one and only Pastor Joe.

Joe 00:00:39  Hey everybody.

Lindsey 00:00:40  And we are here on a Monday, doing something a little different than I'm really excited about. And that is we're wanting to have a conversation with you about kind of a after the message, and do a little bonus content to what we talked about yesterday for us as we're sitting here. about our our message this past Sunday. So I'm I'm excited.

Joe 00:01:07  Yeah.

Lindsey 00:01:07  Me too to have that, because I don't think people realize, Joe, that when you're up there or when I'm up there, we have about a half hour.

Joe 00:01:15  Yeah.

Lindsey 00:01:15  To give a message. And oftentimes we feel like, man, I wish I could just pause here and kind of talk a little bit more about this, or we get a little feedback and realize people would like to hear, more about that aspect or touch them in that way, and just wish we could all sit down with everybody in the living room and have a conversation, basically.

Lindsey 00:01:40  and so this was, this was our chance to do that about this last, about your message on Sunday because it it really touched a lot of people. And I think there's a lot more that, it stirred up in people and they're thinking about and hopefully this conversation will help them. We are in a series on advent. And yesterday you talked about peace. peace instead of chaos. which, was really, really good. And I think, the thing that stood out to everybody was not just the peace part, but the chaos part.

Joe 00:02:17  Yeah.

Lindsey 00:02:18  And highlighting for that, I, I think it resonated with pretty much everyone in the room, whether for themselves or someone they love and are in relationship with. And you talked about two groups of people. Chaos creators. And then those who live with chaos creators. Just to catch everyone up in case someone's listening and they're haven't heard the sermon yet. Could you just kind of unpack for us quickly what a chaos creator is. Yeah. And those who live with chaos creators.

Joe 00:02:50  Yeah. Oh my gosh. Well, you know, first it's in the Bible. It's amazing that you see these, examples for us and we can learn so much from them. And so we see Herod, who is a leader at the time that was filled with all kinds of chaos, and the whole area was. And then you see the wise men who are interacting with him, even in a small way. And, and what they did. So we see, people who are chaos creators, have a problem where there seems like they're creating relational pain. I would just take it to that level. Relational pain with people more than, seems seems normal. Yeah. And so there's normally patterns of multiple relationships or in, in one relationship where a chaos creator is the one that's creating the chaos. And it's, it's it's emotional and relational pain. Yeah. And then on the other side of that is someone who's receiving that, chaos from another individual, or they're feels like they're regularly wounded at some level.

Joe 00:03:50  Yeah. from someone that's in their life. And so we. We'd look this past week. And how do we grow in both of those areas and how do we if we're on the receiving end, how do we manage that and and guard our hearts and protect ourselves? And also in some ways help that person? Because we do, we have a role that we can and how we respond and and all that. And then on the other side of it is someone who's creating the chaos, which is probably the maybe is what seems to be more response, more of the response when the congregation was a lot of people relating to, gosh, there's an area of my life that I can see that I am causing chaos for those that I love, and I don't want to.

Lindsey 00:04:29  Yeah, that to me was an unusual and was part of the power. Because oftentimes we go and we talk in churches about being like, people hurt me. How to forgive every everyone else is the problem. Often we can be guilty of that.

Lindsey 00:04:48  Sometimes I think some churches might be guilty of the opposite of that. but there was. It was really powerful in the room. of inviting people to consider our. Are you the one that might be causing this and taking ownership for that? What would be some signs for somebody if they're realizing I'm, you know, we all cause each other pain. That's part of relationships. Even healthy relationships. We we hurt each other. But a chaos creators isn't elevated. It's a lot of cycles of this. What are some signs for someone to say to maybe look and say, oh, I might be a chaos creator? What are some things that you could observe about yourself or, see in your life and you shared some of your own stories? Yes. which was very vulnerable. Any thoughts on that? To help people?

Joe 00:05:44  Yeah. I think, if you're alone and you're at peace and you're thinking about the people that you love. And if you were to be honest with yourself and say, you know what? While I don't think all the conflicts that I've had over the past four months or six months or a year or whatever are all my fault, but I can see that I play a role that seems to be consistent in the problems that we've had, that have at some level left the people that I care about hurt.

Joe 00:06:17  Then you're probably a chaos creator. Yeah. And there's a kind of a spectrum of this I would say of how much we are, because probably all of us have some level of doing this, and then others of us have a pretty big problem. Yeah. And if you have a sense that the people around you, if they were being honest, even if you think they're wrong. Yeah, but if they were to write you a letter that was 100% honest and, and share with you how, how they're what they're experiencing from you if they would tell you. Yeah. You you tend to, Joe. You tend to cause me a lot of pain. Then, you're probably a chaos creator.

Lindsey 00:06:53  Yeah, and that's hard to hear. But it is if we're. It's, It's courageous honesty. To say, okay, if I have to explain away everyone's experience of me and say, no, no, that person, that's their that's their issue. That's it. And you're constantly explaining other people's experience of you away.

Lindsey 00:07:15  Maybe pause there.

Joe 00:07:16  Maybe pause there. And then if we took it one step deeper even I would say. And and Lindsay let's talk about this. If you because there's a lot of you know you and I when we think of circumstances like this we realize how complex, relationships are. Yeah. But another part of it would see, I would say, is if you're if you're in relationship with someone you love or people that you love and you really don't think that you you think it's the other person's fault. Like, you really do think that down deep inside, How would the Lord lead you to move in love towards that person, let's say, in the coming year? even if you don't can't see that you're the you're the chaos creator, right? You think maybe it's more the other person? Maybe you're right or wrong about that. Yeah, but what could you do to, be better at loving and be more loving?

Lindsey 00:08:11  Yeah, I think that when we ask that question, what would love require of us? It stops us and kind of brings us back to saying, well, love would require that I actually own, even if I think it's a smaller part.

Joe 00:08:25  Removes the excuses.

Lindsey 00:08:27  It removes the excuses.

Joe 00:08:28  Yeah. And we, we look at to Jesus. And of course, what did love require?

Lindsey 00:08:32  Yeah.

Joe 00:08:33  His sacrifice. He didn't.

Lindsey 00:08:36  He kind of melody.

Joe 00:08:37  High humility.

Lindsey 00:08:38  Yeah. And now one one of the things if we're in this place, it feels like a lot of the men responded pretty strongly and said, I feel like that's me. and I don't I'm not saying men are worse. We're not saying men are worse sinners or something, but they really strongly identified with this message and this language, of being a chaos creator. What why do you think that is? What do you think? If men are listening now and they're like, that just kind of hit me really strong. Why do you think that is?

Joe 00:09:21  Yeah. It's such an, Something that it seems like a lot of guys have this bottled up, this bottled up, this, that weird word. But there's something inside that feels like it's, It's strong, it's powerful, it's active, and it's not healthy.

Joe 00:09:39  Yeah. And it's oftentimes difficult to put words to it. I think women probably have similar in different ways, but I think the way it comes out of men often is in strength and is, kind of more reactive in what how it's experienced by the people around them. I think maybe with with women, it's a little more subtle. so I think even the language of being a chaos creator at times. Yeah. Is that more? Yeah. You know, as a guy, I can see I have some internal chaos and I can see the places in my life where I'm not healthy letting out this anger or frustration. It's coming out in ways that's chaotic.

Lindsey 00:10:21  Yeah.

Joe 00:10:22  So I think just a lot of us as men resonated with it and resonated with my story. You know, as as painful as it was for me to share some of that. Yeah. it it's something I think a lot of us experience.

Lindsey 00:10:34  And I would love. So if people are listening to this and I agree with you, I do think there is a strength that men have.

Lindsey 00:10:42  That is unique to being a man. Women. It doesn't mean they're. Well, they are more strong than women physically. But it doesn't mean.

Joe 00:10:50  It doesn't mean they don't have strength.

Lindsey 00:10:51  Doesn't mean women don't have strength. We're not saying that. But there is this uniqueness to men in the strength that God has placed in them. And I think it can feel like that word chaos is a strong word. And so I think that did probably resonate. and I when, if we could go a little bit personal.

Joe 00:11:13  Yeah. Great.

Lindsey 00:11:15  Why? Are you guys your pastor? Joe is a courageous man. what was a turning point for you? Because the concern is you sit there in a Sunday morning and you're like, I think I'm a chaos creator. You're maybe feeling like. I mean, men are crying, you know, feeling shedding some tears. Wonderful thing. like this is me. What for you to realize that is so beautiful and humble and so Christlike to realize and be honest. But what was the turning point for you? And what do you think a turning point is for people when you're in that place to.

Lindsey 00:12:00  Because I think there are actually things maybe I can just say, I think there's things we can do as chaos creators that we try to fix it, but we're making it worse. Do you know what I mean?

Joe 00:12:10  Yes.

Lindsey 00:12:11  And how? Well, I'm just going to figure this out. I'm just going to try harder. I'm gonna go into denial. I don't know all these things, but, like, for you, what was a turning point? Because there was a turning point. And you do have this great relationship with your wife and your kids. Not perfect. There's no such thing, but healthy. That's the goal. What do you think that turning point is specifically for a chaos creator?

Joe 00:12:36  Yeah, and I think for Joel. And I'm glad you asked this question, because it's one of the fears that I have from a message like that. It's just my own personal what do people think of me? And so I know I shouldn't be that way, but I do. and, Joann and I would have always said we had a pretty healthy relationship all throughout the years, and I think we did.

Joe 00:12:54  And in most ways, I think we had a problem with the resolving conflict together that was came out of this issue within me. And I think I caused more pain through my the strength of my responses and things like I described as weakened. and so that was a problem. But, I would say for me, the turning point, I would describe it much more as it was a process over time. Lynsey, for me, I think I, was slowly confronted with this in a way that helped my eyes to be open to what was real inside of me. And it was many confrontations or many turning points. I would say it's the better term. Yeah. All throughout the years that were significant for me and taking little steps, in growing and changing and becoming more open to what it was that was happening.

Lindsey 00:13:52  Yeah. And was that with people or with God or all of the above?

Joe 00:13:56  Yeah. Thanks for asking that. It it was, it was, I would say mostly with people.

Lindsey 00:14:00  Yeah.

Joe 00:14:02  And I think it was God working through people. it was through counselors and years ago and Joanne and I first got, first assault counselor. We there was a beginning of a process there and I started to get some more understanding. It was, for me, moments in sermons and small groups and talking to mentors and, you know, always typically presenting how I saw the circumstances. But the wise people would say, you know, in, in, in marriages, it's there's most of the time, not all the time. Most of the time there's two people that are involved. And, both of you have strengths and weaknesses. And, our part in marriage, though, is to own our part. And, I think for years I wanted to grow in some of this because I thought it would, Joanne would then, she would be different to me in ways that, you know, would were important to me or wanted her to change. So I was changing. I was trying to change so that she would change.

Joe 00:15:13  And it wasn't really out of a motivation. It was still selfish motivation. Yeah. And I think that that was something over time that that has shifted for me, where it was more about how do I love her regardless of whether she would ever change. And some of some of the things that are, are, you know, more on her end of stuff or whatever. Yeah. so that would be probably one of the things. So, yeah, it was a combination of stuff, honestly.

Lindsey 00:15:38  Yeah. I think that, I think it's really good because the process of change is so slow.

Joe 00:15:47  Yeah.

Lindsey 00:15:47  And it's not. Our human instinct is we want a formula. Yes. Like, in classes can be wonderful. All those things can be wonderful. They're wonderful for different people at different stages. And we're in this place and we want to know like how can I fix this today. And do humans work that way.

Joe 00:16:08  No. And when it's not fixing it when you say okay here's something I know I can do, I can.

Joe 00:16:13  You know, we talked about breathing. Yeah, I can slow down and I can breathe and I can not react. Yeah. Do it once. Do it twice. Yeah. Do it four times. Well, my spouse is still flipping out and not changing or acting any different. So it it's difficult for us to really be become the people that we need to for the people that we love. Yeah. When we're focused on what's the results?

Lindsey 00:16:41  Yeah.

Joe 00:16:42  Now, when we focus on the results of how we're acting and what are we doing to inflict pain, it changes. And I think that's a good place to to to stay camped.

Lindsey 00:16:51  I think it's really good. and just a caveat. cuz I hopefully it's assumed, but it's not always. We're not talking about, like, physically abusive things.

Joe 00:17:04  We're saying.

Lindsey 00:17:04  That marriages. We're talking within the realm, right, of healthy, overall healthy, safe relationships. Yes. It might not always feel healthy, but we're not talking about clear lines of.

Joe 00:17:19  Of where you should separate. You should separate legal involvement.

Lindsey 00:17:23  Yeah. And church discipline and.

Joe 00:17:25  All.

Lindsey 00:17:26  That stuff. All that sort of stuff. Yeah.

Joe 00:17:28  And most of us, when we hear this, we kind of know the difference.

Lindsey 00:17:30  But I think, I think it's good for us just to say say that. And and within that realm, though, I, I love what you're saying because, relationships are so complex. think about friendship. Relationship. Maybe the chaos person is a parent. An adult parent. or it could be a spouse, a sibling in your family where it just feels like they're constantly causing you pain, or you're causing them pain. And it's, you know, we started this off saying, what if I'm the chaos creator? Well, that's that's true and not true. Would you say like yes, you're the someone might be the chaos creator if you're hearing this, but maybe an obstacle might be like yes but. Like there's two people in every relationship.

Joe 00:18:24  Yes.

Lindsey 00:18:24  And they might be compensating for your chaos creating by doing other unhealthy things that aren't helpful. And so you're saying start with what can I do to love that person and serve them and start there?

Joe 00:18:40  Start there. And and you know, Lindsey, I think in this process that we're talking about, we start with what can we do? And in the process over time. Yeah, it's it's not giving up. Yeah. It's you make a mistake. Let's say you do do you do. You're doing well for a while and not reacting as strong or whatever it is. But you don't when you and then you have a bad, you lose your temper or whatever. You don't give up. And you, wherever you are today, if you give up, that's, that's death to you and your relationships. Yeah, right. That's not what we want. We don't. We? It's over time, sticking with us, trying to become more loving person and doing what you know, you need to do to to move more into that than where you are.

Lindsey 00:19:23  Getting other people.

Joe 00:19:24  Involved and getting other people involved.

Lindsey 00:19:25  Yeah. And speaking into it. And that could take off.

Joe 00:19:29  I think that's key.

Lindsey 00:19:30  Yeah. I think that's.

Joe 00:19:31  Really because we really don't see it.

Lindsey 00:19:32  No. And if we knew how to get ourselves out of those situations, we would have done it. Right.

Joe 00:19:38  Yeah.

Lindsey 00:19:38  If we knew how to fix this we would have fixed it.

Joe 00:19:42  Lindsay, what do you think when you heard this and you were processing this from more of like a, of how a from a woman's perspective.

Lindsey 00:19:51  Yeah.

Joe 00:19:52  How what kinds of things come to mind for you when you think about how how do women sort of create maybe chaos is the wrong term, but.

Lindsey 00:19:59  I do think the language chaos spoke to men because it's and I think that was good. I don't think it's bad. I think it actually could be helpful to women, though in a different sort of way. Because I, I do think I don't want to stereotype genders because some things we can express the same behaviors in similar ways no matter what our days.

Lindsey 00:20:22  but I do think sometimes, by and large there is a like. Chaos is like the strong.

Joe 00:20:30  Yes.

Lindsey 00:20:30  Like a little explosive. Right? Right. And men can feel like they're all bottled up. And they got. And they're. It might feel a little, like, strong. How? They're hurting someone. And they said something they shouldn't have said too loudly or too strong. Where? But if you think about chaos creator and over and over causing pain to somebody.

Joe 00:20:52  Yes. Very good. Yeah.

Lindsey 00:20:54  Maybe a woman wouldn't use chaos. But we I don't know what the right word would be, but we might, we might kind of discount ourselves and realize and be like that's not me. But maybe we are causing chaos through different ways because maybe it's not coming out explosive. Maybe it's coming out as control.

Joe 00:21:15  Or passive aggressive.

Lindsey 00:21:16  Or passive aggressive or just cutting. Biting which men and women. All these things can be done by both. Right. But I would encourage women to think.

Lindsey 00:21:25  Well, I don't I don't explode like that. but do we belittle. Do we withhold love and affection and encouragement because we, you know, and that is not just what we do. It's what we don't do. And that can be extremely painful I think in a marriage of. and men can do it too I guess. But I would encourage women to think maybe of some of those non kind of big ways we do it and maybe you might identify with it a little bit more.

Joe 00:21:59  That's great. Can I take a risk on this podcast. Oh yeah. Am I allowed to. Yeah I guess if we if we shouldn't publish it, we can cut it out. Right? Cut it out. How do you think that relates to sexual intimacy and marriage? How would you would you see connections to that? because again, it's it's a stereotype I think of, of, you know, men are the ones that all they want to have more frequent.

Lindsey 00:22:25  More frequent.

Joe 00:22:26  Sexual intimacy. Right? Sex and and women are less.

Joe 00:22:29  And that can be flipped. It's I I've known enough couples over the years that it's.

Lindsey 00:22:33  Not.

Joe 00:22:33  Always true. It's not always true. Right. But I do know also enough men that would say, man, this there's a this is a frustrating area of their marriage. And certainly if I was talking to a man about that, I would say, well, what's your part? And and how are you cultivating love and, and the things that need to lead to it. But what would you say, do you think, from how, you know, women generally when it comes to that, that topic, and especially in how it deals with men's frustration and.

Lindsey 00:23:00  I think I would use the word safety as when we have when there is a chaos creator element in a relationship, what happens is there's a decreased sense of safety for both. and so the men feel less safe. Like if I'm really honest, she won't be able to handle it. The woman you. You know, you don't, love me.

Lindsey 00:23:23  You don't encourage me all the ways that I want. And again, we're talking in stereotypes, but I think that can be helpful to as a grid. I think for women, we tend to desire sexual intimacy as a product of safety and affection. Men tend to desire sexual intimacy in order to experience safety and affection.

Joe 00:23:47  So isn't that.

Lindsey 00:23:48  True? Yeah. And so I think for women to be aware is if that's the case, how can I pursue that and build that. Because what we'll say is, well, I'm not going to have sex until I experience that. And then they just sit there waiting to experience that. And well, I don't feel safe, like.

Joe 00:24:07  Okay, it's a cycle.

Lindsey 00:24:08  And it's a cycle of where we desire. And we truly do desire less because that emotional intimacy feeds the physical desire or the physical desire for men tends to feed the emotional intimacy. And so we're kind of the order is being flipped. And so I think for women, that's where we have to not use it as an excuse because we have to experience.

Lindsey 00:24:34  So we're just going there right now. Just go. I, I love to talk about these things. I think for, like for my husband and I, I and I'm not going to talk about our.

Joe 00:24:47  Our you guys.

Lindsey 00:24:48  Personally. Yeah. But I should think as a woman, he desires physical intimacy. Sexual intimacy. Not just because he's like this human animal, but because on the other side of that, he feels safety and affection and intimacy. And I'm sitting here. Well, I want to feel that first before I'll give you. Right.

Joe 00:25:09  Yes.

Lindsey 00:25:10  And so we have to come together and say, how do we sort that out? And not me just sitting there saying, well, I don't feel like you. I don't feel safe because those are real, but not use them as a block, but use them as a gateway to say, I want to build this so that we can have the physical and you want to build this toward give that to me be. Because I also know on the other side of that, I'm not just withholding physical intimacy from you.

Lindsey 00:25:35  I'm withholding a an emotional experience of intimacy that's on the other side.

Joe 00:25:42  Yes.

Lindsey 00:25:42  Of that. Yeah. Yeah. Does that make.

Joe 00:25:44  Sense? It does. I think that's really, resonates with me that there's a lot of truth and really great things for us for, for men and women to think about and to process it, to move into healthier places when it comes to thinking about safety. Yeah. And both of us are parts in that and how we can come together. Yeah. so let me ask you this question. Yeah. so how long does a guy have to how long does a guy have to stop erupting in chaos before his wife is going to feel safe and they can have more sex. Give us an answer, Lindsay. Right now.

Lindsey 00:26:19  Oh, boy. I think how long?

Joe 00:26:25  I'm joking.

Lindsey 00:26:26  Yeah, I'm not kidding.

Joe 00:26:27  I'm curious what you're gonna say, though.

Lindsey 00:26:29  I would go back to my first answer. How can you build the conditions in your marriage to have. So here's an interesting thing, though.

Lindsey 00:26:38  That's that I would like to to say. It strikes me that for men, we're talking about how they can maybe be a little, like bottled up. Yes. And they got it all in their women, their spouses. We actually want to see that stuff. We don't want it in a scary way.

Joe 00:26:53  Isn't that something?

Lindsey 00:26:54  But that actually builds intimacy for us? I don't you think I wonder, do you feel like men feel like if I really let out in a safe way?

Joe 00:27:02  Yes.

Lindsey 00:27:02  Not in a harmful, hurtful, painful way. But if I really let out, there's other stuff in here.

Joe 00:27:10  She's so vulnerable, Lindsey. It feels so scary. Yeah. And as a guy, it's like, man, you know, I love my wife and. But do I want her to really see this place in me that feels out of control? And and we do, though, you know, I think men do want that more than anything. And I wonder if, part of our conversation here would be helpful to talk about how do we have these conversations.

Joe 00:27:38  So how do we, you know, I think a lot of men would be interested in the conversation, especially as it pertains to, if they're married is sexual intimacy. Yeah. but they would also be interested in the conversation. emotional intimacy. We want that. Men want that with their wives. And I know wives want that more than anything. They probably want both to. Yeah. You know, again, generally speaking. Right. Yeah. So what what comes to mind for you about. Cuz I, you know, I guess I was worried on Sunday, I drove home and, you know, I got a nap in. It was a wonderful Sunday, being together with our church family, and I just thought about what happens when couples especially go home. And, you know, I've been thinking more of a men's response to this. A man is kind of exposed by Joe sharing these things. Yeah. after many years of hard work and counseling and all kinds of stuff, a lot of men aren't in that place.

Joe 00:28:40  Right. Of where I've come. I've got a long. I've got a ways to go yet, but I've come a long way. Yeah. What comes to mind for how couples can talk through that issue? The sexual issue. Intimacy issue. What do you think?

Lindsey 00:28:52  I'd love to hear your thoughts. I think, I think when we engage this, one, I would just say a lot of people, you you might be in a place a little bit of a crazy cycle where you just need some outside help. Yes. And that's okay. Like, that's actually a beautiful thing of. And that might be the step towards intimacy of going to your spouse. we're talking about marriage here, saying I actually that resonated with me. And I don't know if I know how to get out of this. Could we like but I want that with you.

Joe 00:29:33  I don't know what to do.

Lindsey 00:29:34  I don't know what to do. But I want, I want it and I'm not going to give up. So could we get some help and I, I want to grow.

Lindsey 00:29:42  I want to grow. no matter which part in that you are. and I think the other thing is, when we're in that crazy cycle, we become self-protective. It's hard, we're scared, and I just to me, like, it's such sacred ground to engage those conversations. and I think of I would just. Yeah. I feel like so good. I feel like God's in that. But I would just encourage one another, like, man, if someone's owning it or, you know, you're on the other side of that or you're owning for the first time, like, treat that as sacred ground. Be careful what you say. don't divert to scapegoating or sarcasm or minimizing, but just really listen to one another. hear it. Maybe take some time, maybe not. Respond right away. and really treat that. I think we, we often don't know how to have those hard conversations, and it's really scary. I would actually encourage wives of men open up at all to you. I often think of this image and my own marriage with lots of marriages.

Lindsey 00:30:58  I want to tell women like. And men don't take this the wrong way, but I'm like, think of it as like a scared turtle. Like they're just coming out of their shell, and then you jump with solutions or, you know.

Joe 00:31:10  And they they jump back.

Lindsey 00:31:11  In and it just. Right. They draw right back in and just be like this. This is it. This is the moment. It's not going to be done perfectly. That's right. But just be there present and just say this. Just tell them I want to hear this. Yes, this. I want to know. I want to be the person. You can say that. And I'm not going to try to fix you and give all the easy answers. And I want to be able to share my stuff to you in a way that's safe and all that.

Joe 00:31:37  So I it's so hard when we've experienced pain from another person. Yeah, it's so hard. And we're we're in a place where now they're ready to talk about it, but they might be ready.

Joe 00:31:46  You might see 100% of the problem. Yeah. But there might be ready to talk about 5% or 10%. Yeah. And you might so much want to talk about, you know, so much of all of it. Right. But it's meeting the person where they are.

Lindsey 00:32:00  And building the conditions of safety. It's good because what we do with that 10% tells the person if and it's not your, they're your fault. I'm not saying that that's right. But that's how human relationships work. We don't instantly arrive to a place of safety. And then everybody says everything their whole 100%. Those first ten minute conversation tells the person, okay, in the next 20 minutes, we could further have more. Yes. And start building that trust.

Joe 00:32:28  That's good.

Lindsey 00:32:29  Yeah. What do you think?

Joe 00:32:30  Yeah. I was thinking, about what you were sharing, and I remembered one of the earlier times for us, for Joel and I, and I didn't. I didn't share the story. And this is, personal, but I had the hardest time when we would have a conflict.

Joe 00:32:46  And let's say we we separated from the conflict. So we were, you know, not able to come to some resolution and maybe it was elevated. We were going back and forth or whatever. And we just said, okay, we're done talking about this. I had the hardest time for the longest time of initiating back to JoEllen and saying, hey, I'm sorry. Yeah, can we talk? And one of the things that JoEllen did for me and you can say, if this is if this might be wrong and you wouldn't recommend this to couples, but she what she did for me was, so often she recognized that that was an issue. We actually talked about it how much I had this block. It's ridiculous to sit here and say it, but I it's just so hard. And she would be the one that would come first often and say hey hon can we talk. And she helped me in that way in my weakness. Yeah. Now I'm not saying that in every couple situation in.

Lindsey 00:33:44  They're all very different.

Joe 00:33:44  They're all very different. And it doesn't mean you meet the your spouse in their weakness in lots of different scenarios. But there are places where you know the person you love. They have a challenge. And there's things that we both would do for each other in challenging areas of our, of our lives, right, that we try to meet. So that was very helpful for us and beginning to have safety. Yeah. And working through things. It's kind of a little bit different, but.

Lindsey 00:34:10  It's really good and and serving you in that way.

Joe 00:34:14  Yeah. Kind of serving and loving me in that way. Yeah. Yeah.

Lindsey 00:34:17  There's so many beautiful ways we can. and I think that goes back to that first question of, I think for both sides, how do I love this person in this, in this space? If you're a chaos creator, what would love require?

Joe 00:34:30  Yes, yes. and maybe in those conversations, one other piece is the curiosity piece.

Lindsey 00:34:35  Yeah.

Joe 00:34:37  It's not easy to do. Yeah, but when your spouse begins to share a little bit, I come out of that shell, like you said. What does it look like to be curious? to ask questions, to get to know them. And know when to stop, right?

Lindsey 00:34:57  When not to try to fix, or that might come later.

Joe 00:35:01  Might come later.

Lindsey 00:35:01  Some decisions I so I'll be honest to. And I just I'm honest because I want people to understand like this is healthy relationships is these moments and we're all growing. my husband and I had a conversation recently where we were driving somewhere together. He agreed to drive with me so I wouldn't do the drive on my own. And he's like, you know, I actually wanted to do the drive with you because I want to talk to you about some things. And when he starts off, I've been thinking about this for a couple months and but, you know, what was happening inside of me was like, what did I do? And defensiveness.

Lindsey 00:35:39  You're not the only one. There's two in this marriage.

Joe 00:35:41  But all those things, we start to think.

Lindsey 00:35:43  Of the things. And because I wanted to self protect. Right. And he said some hard things for me to hear and it was but I the whole time in my mind, it was like a little side conversation with Jesus. Of like, Jesus helped me not to ruin this because he's saying really true things right now, and I need to hear this. And but I wanted I, I was too scared, turtle. Like I just wanted to withdraw and be like, I don't want to hear this. I don't want to hear this. But it again, it's so sacred ground sort of moments of. Okay Lindsey I'm Lindsey, slow down. Listen to what's being said. Okay. What could you say to help him to say more. And he's he's not a child. He can say more. But I wanted to play my part. Yes. To say I want to hear this because this is actually where intimacy is built.

Lindsey 00:36:39  Yeah.

Joe 00:36:40  It's so good. You know, what made me think when you were saying that little trick that I tell myself in my head when I know that John wants to share something with me, or if I'm going to get feedback from someone about whatever. And I know it's going to be hard. Yeah, I just you know what? I tell myself?

Lindsey 00:37:00  What?

Joe 00:37:01  I'm gonna live.

Lindsey 00:37:02  Oh, I like that.

Joe 00:37:04  So ridiculous.

Lindsey 00:37:06  There's life on the other side of this conversation.

Joe 00:37:08  I'm gonna.

Lindsey 00:37:08  Do this.

Joe 00:37:09  I'm gonna survive.

Lindsey 00:37:10  Yeah.

Joe 00:37:10  This isn't that. It tells a lot, doesn't it, about my my nervous system or whatever.

Lindsey 00:37:14  That. It's that.

Joe 00:37:15  Sometimes threatening.

Lindsey 00:37:16  Me.

Joe 00:37:17  But I. Oh, wait. Oh, I'm. You mean I'm at the end of this conversation. I'm going to have information that and I'm with Joel. And it's always basically always true with other people. Not necessarily. But even if it is if it's true on it's true. I'm not going to die.

Joe 00:37:33  No, I am still loved. Right. Like my spouse loves me. She's she or he. They're still with you. They're not going anywhere. Yeah. It's gonna be all right. So I know I'm not really, really not trying to make fun of that. I'm trying to say no, it's it's scary.

Lindsey 00:37:50  It is scary and we feel that like our heart starts racing.

Joe 00:37:53  Remind ourselves.

Lindsey 00:37:54  Yeah, it's.

Joe 00:37:55  They love me. They're for me. They're not against us. They're the biggest advocate that you ever will have in your life. They might not always act like it.

Lindsey 00:38:02  They might not. And that might be a later conversation.

Joe 00:38:04  That might be later.

Lindsey 00:38:05  I need you to be an advocate for me. Yeah. Oh, Joe.

Joe 00:38:09  This is great.

Lindsey 00:38:10  I think this is really good. And I hope, helpful. I think, yeah. Just as you're leaving, if you're hearing this. I would just remind people that this is the gospel. This is living out the good news of Jesus.

Lindsey 00:38:26  That we're sinners. We're broken people. We fall short. In Christ, there's full forgiveness. And so we we sit in that that if you're a chaos creator and you're overwhelmed by the pain, you go, you start your point there and and then you live out the gospel of being someone who doesn't just, experience that repair with Jesus. But you go live it out with the people you love and offering repentance. receiving love and forgiveness and then growing and changing and pursuing that, not giving up, but pursuing that with Jesus. And that's actually the Christian life is living that out.

Joe 00:39:09  Yes. Yes. So true, so wonderful. And Lindsay, you know, we closed this past weekend just thinking about other people that we know that don't have the Lord in their lives. And, just the opportunity that we have. And so I can't leave this podcast.

Lindsey 00:39:25  Yes.

Joe 00:39:25  Go for reminding everybody to be praying for that person that you're gonna, invite and to make that invitation and, and, everything doesn't, doesn't rise or fall for people's eternities on Christmas.

Joe 00:39:39  Of course. But this is just such a wonderful time for us to, bring people in and let them begin to move towards what the Lord has for them.

Lindsey 00:39:46  And maybe people that you love, yes, and want to build that connection with and tell them this is really important to me. I'd love to include you in on that. That's great. A special, place that's in my life, this church and this relationship with God. And invite them into that. Yeah.

Joe 00:40:03  Yeah.

Lindsey 00:40:05  Well, Joe, thank you so much for your honesty. And I'm looking forward to this next Sunday to just continue that journey. Yeah. And I hope you guys continue to come back to the new reality podcast.

Speaker 1 00:40:17  We'll talk to you. Hey, everybody. Thanks for tuning in to the Pursue Reality podcast. Reality church is a local church in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. To learn more or get connected, visit us at Pursue Reality.