PRP 63 | Why God is Not Angry With You - Propitiation Explained - Big Words, Good God Series

In this episode of the Pursue Reality Podcast, Lindsey, Connor, and Chris continue the “Big Words, Good News” series by tackling one of the most unfamiliar words in the Bible: propitiation. Drawing from Romans 3:25, they explain that propitiation means Jesus took upon himself the just wrath of God against sin through his sacrificial death on the cross.

The conversation carefully unpacks what God’s wrath really means—not as God’s cruel or unstable anger, but as his holy justice and rightful response to evil. They explore why justice is actually part of God’s goodness, why sin must be dealt with, and why the cross is such stunningly good news: Jesus absorbed the punishment we deserved so that those in Christ are no longer under wrath.

This episode also speaks tenderly to listeners who feel like God is still angry with them. Through the work of Christ, the punishment for sin has been satisfied, and believers can rest in the truth that God’s posture toward them is no longer wrath, but love. Propitiation is a big word, but it carries deeply personal hope: Jesus took our place so we could stand secure in grace.

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Transcript

[00:00] Speaker 1: (mellow music) You're listening to the Pursue Reality podcast from Reality Church. Each episode is a conversation about what it means to be real people pursuing a better reality in Jesus.

[00:28] Lindsey: Welcome, everyone, to the Pursue Reality podcast. This is Lindsay, one of the pastors at Reality Church here in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, not Lancaster. It's Lancaster. (laughs) And I've got with me Pastor Connor-

[00:42] Connor: Hello, everyone.

[00:43] Lindsey: ... and I also have with me the one and only Chris LaSpaw.

[00:47] Lautsbaugh: Hey, everybody.

[00:49] Lindsey: And we are in this series called Big Words, Good News, going through some of the bigger words in scripture and of our faith, and trying to actually understand (laughs) the words that we use and unpack them. Uh, in a way, often, we just kinda say them off ha- hand, um, but we don't actually slow down to understand them. They are core to our faith. They're core to understanding Jesus and what He has done for us.

[01:17] Lindsey: And I'm excited for this episode because this episode, we are going to look at a word that probably 99% (laughs) of Christians have no idea what it means, and maybe don't- haven't ever even heard it depending on the translation-

[01:34] Lautsbaugh: Mm-hmm.

[01:34] Lindsey: ... of Bible that they use. So, we have been going through Romans 3:23, um, and onwards and looking at this verse that says, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by His grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by His blood to be received by faith." Oh, my. So we have (laughs) already looked at sin, justification, grace, redemption. I encourage you to go back and listen to those episodes if you haven't.

[02:11] Lindsey: But now we hit head-on into this word "propitiation."

[02:18] Lautsbaugh: It's a word that comes up in everyday conversation.

[02:20] Lindsey: (laughs) Everyday conversation.

[02:21] Lautsbaugh: Dinnertime, it's-

[02:22] Connor: I've used it three times today.

[02:23] Lindsey: Already (laughs) Connor's used it three times.

[02:25] Connor: Yeah.

[02:26] Lindsey: Uh, so he-

[02:26] Connor: That's probably true though, actually. (laughs)

[02:29] Lindsey: So it says here that, "God put forward Christ as a propitiation by His blood to be received by faith." So Chris, help us out here. This word "propitiation," what the heck does that-

[02:48] Lautsbaugh: (laughs)

[02:48] Lindsey: ... even mean?

[02:49] Lautsbaugh: Yeah, we don't have to really worry about having kind of a modern day misinterpretation of this word.

[02:54] Lindsey: Yes.

[02:54] Lautsbaugh: Like, you know, redemption, we might think, you know, a coupon or something. But here, we're just like, "I don't know what this is." And it sure sounds like good news. I hope it's good news.

[03:05] Lindsey: Maybe it sounds like... I don't know what it sounds like.

[03:06] Lautsbaugh: You know, I, I actually think it's funny, because the, the word k- almost is more complicated than the definition. Like, I'm not sure why they... Sometimes we just didn't use the definition here, uh, that the... Some versions will translate the sacrifice of atonement, which, which is more of an Old Testament word, uh, but really, what, what this is, th- is that this is what part of Jesus' sacrifice is dealing with the wrath of God, is dealing with the consequences for sin that God in His justice will serve on sin. Uh, and I'm sure we'll talk a little bit more about God's wrath, uh, during this show, but the, the simple definition for propitiation is that God placed the wrath that He had towards sin on Christ. Uh, we would, we could say in simple terms, Jesus is our wrath taker.

[03:59] Connor: Hmm.

[03:59] Lautsbaugh: Uh, that He took H- upon Himself the wrath of God. Um, and there, there is... One of the, the Greek words that, that leads us to propitiation also leads us to, uh, atonement. That's why some versions translate it differently. Uh, there's this Greek word called hilasterion, which is kind of a fun-sounding Greek word. Um, but it, it's this idea that, um, if you try to put this in human terms, which is always a little complicated with God, the, the negative emotions towards sin, the wrath-

[04:31] Connor: Mm.

[04:32] Lautsbaugh: ... have been completely removed-

[04:33] Lindsey: So, sorry, can I pause you there? Wrath. Is that just intense anger, fury?

[04:37] Lautsbaugh: (laughs)

[04:37] Lindsey: Is that what you're saying?

[04:38] Lautsbaugh: So-

[04:38] Lindsey: 'Cause we don't use wrath a lot.

[04:39] Lautsbaugh: Yes. I would say it's God's justice.

[04:42] Lindsey: Okay.

[04:42] Lautsbaugh: I- it's the-

[04:42] Lindsey: Okay.

[04:42] Lautsbaugh: ... the r- the righteous penalty for sin-

[04:47] Lindsey: Okay.

[04:47] Lautsbaugh: ... which the wages of sin is death.

[04:49] Lindsey: Yeah.

[04:49] Lautsbaugh: So it is the death that every sin requires. Um, so God, in His justice-

[04:54] Lindsey: Mm-hmm.

[04:55] Lautsbaugh: ... will make sure that that penalty is paid. So sometimes even you could say the consequences.

[05:00] Lindsey: Yeah.

[05:00] Lautsbaugh: I think that's maybe a more-

[05:02] Lindsey: The right consequences.

[05:03] Lautsbaugh: Yes.

[05:03] Lindsey: Yeah.

[05:04] Lautsbaugh: The just consequences. So, we would say that the wrath or the, the consequences of sin have been completely satisfied, so if you would try to use this phrase, "the negative emotions," again, it's hard to think of this as negative, because God is only good. But it's... Then the only emotional language that is left in its place would be the love that God has for all people, uh, including Christians, that that's the only feeling that is then there. So once wrath is removed, the only way that God looks at those who have placed their faith in Christ is with this huge hilasterion kind of love, um, that, that is... There is no disappointment. There's no, uh, He's still kind of angry, He's out to get us.

[05:53] Lautsbaugh: That has been fully paid by the sacrifice-

[05:56] Lindsey: Satisfied.

[05:57] Lautsbaugh: ... of Christ. So, the enemy coming in line to us saying, "God's still angry with you," like, that's an attack on propitiation. That's an attack on-

[06:05] Lindsey: Mm-hmm.

[06:05] Lautsbaugh: ... the fact that, uh, wrath has completely been satisfied. So, that's kinda the, the, the nutshell there. We're gonna unpack that a little bit more as we dialogue here, but it's...... if you simply replace propitiation with, "God put Jesus forward as the one who took away the wrath of God," uh, that is, um, the simple definition.

[06:27] Connor: Yeah, and when you hear like, the, like if you've been in church and you hear, like, "the atoning work of, of, of Christ-"

[06:33] Lautsbaugh: Mm-hmm.

[06:33] Connor: ... that's, that's what we're talking about here.

[06:35] Lautsbaugh: Yes.

[06:35] Connor: This is the atonement and when you, um, I'm just trying to think of like certain songs when you hear like, "The blood of the lamb that was sacrificed for the sins of the world," um, like, it, when you hear those phrases, that, that's what this is leading towards, is, is what, what Christ did on the cross. And this is actually only one of the few things that Christ did on the cross. That was actually one of the most fascinating things when I started learning theology is that it, when we say, "Jesus died for the sins of the world," like there's actually so many things.

[07:07] Lautsbaugh: Mm-hmm.

[07:07] Connor: This is actually only one of them. Like he gained, we gained access to the Father, we gained love of the Father in this moment and so, um, but yeah. When, when we think of justice and wrath, um, like there has to be a punishment and I, and I think we even have that since we're made in the image of God, we have this understanding of like the punishment has to fit the crime, right? And God's, when we go against God's holy law and holy, um, ways of living, that it's deserving of a holy punishment. And so what Jesus did, what's so amazing is this law that we, this, or excuse me, this debt that we could not pay, this grand, I always, I explain it like this. It's like the Grand Canyon and you have to get across the Grand Canyon to, to be saved. But the only way you, you think of doing it is by good works, but your good works are pieces of paper and you have to throw pieces of paper your entire life into the Grand Canyon to build that bridge.

[08:10] Connor: You're gonna die before (laughs) you-

[08:11] Lindsey: (laughs)

[08:11] Connor: And I, I actually ChatGBT'd at one time when I was doing a, a message, uh, for a bunch of students. It's like q- like 80, 80 quintillion pieces of paper.

[08:22] Lautsbaugh: (laughs)

[08:22] Lindsey: (laughs) I don't even know what that, that word means.

[08:24] Connor: I don't even know what that is, but-

[08:25] Lautsbaugh: A lot of zeros.

[08:26] Connor: ... that's a lot of zeros and a lot of good things that you can't do before you die.

[08:30] Lindsey: Mm-hmm.

[08:30] Connor: But here's the thing, is when, when Jesus takes the wrath of God on, that, the cr- a cross-shaped bridge goes right on the Grand Canyon. You get to walk right over it.

[08:41] Lindsey: Mm-hmm.

[08:41] Connor: And so what it should do is invoke in us this, this, like, it gets me emotional. It gets me like so much more in love with, with the Lord in saying like, "Oh my gosh, you, you, when we say you paid this debt that I couldn't, this wrath that I was supposed to take, like you took it on." And it's such a beautiful picture of who Jesus is.

[09:03] Lautsbaugh: So I, I do think one of the things we should unpack a little bit is, so i- is wrath like God's dark and evil side?

[09:11] Connor: (laughs)

[09:11] Lautsbaugh: Is this like the angry-

[09:13] Lindsey: Mm.

[09:13] Lautsbaugh: ... Old Testament God that wou- you know, uh, was killing people and things like, th- I think, uh, when we hear the wrath of God, that, that's kind of where our, our minds go, our human minds. We think that this is, like God's the bad guy here and Jesus is re- Jesus rescued us from the bad God.

[09:32] Connor: Yeah.

[09:33] Lautsbaugh: Um, wh- what do you think about that, Lindsay?

[09:34] Connor: (laughs)

[09:35] Lindsey: (laughs)

[09:35] Connor: There's a lot to unpack there.

[09:37] Lindsey: There's a lot. Um, I, I do think there, it does bring up a lot of emotions. For some people that are listening, they're like really in touch of like, "I've done some bad things." And if, especially if you listen to Sin Episode, you're like, "Yeah, I-" (laughs)

[09:55] Connor: (laughs)

[09:55] Lindsey: "... I get that." And you, it makes sense to you. I do think there is a lot of people that as you dig down into it, it's like, wait a minute, like God hates us and so instead of beating us up, he beats Jesus up. Um, and God's just this vengeful God that we always feared anyways that's just waiting to beat it, like he's got this stick that he's waiting to pull out. And this is kind of... Or we kind of solve that problem by saying, "No, that was the Old Testament God-

[10:33] Connor: Uh-huh.

[10:33] Lindsey: ... and now we have warm, fuzzy Jesus, who's this New Testament God, who's a different God and so we don't have to worry about that."

[10:42] Lautsbaugh: Yeah. By the way, the idea that the God of the Old Testament and the God in the New Testament is dif- different, that's-

[10:48] Connor: That's-

[10:48] Lautsbaugh: ... called a heresy.

[10:49] Connor: That's wrong.

[10:49] Lindsey: That's called a heresy. A heresy is a big word, meaning-

[10:52] Lautsbaugh: There's another big word we kind of-

[10:53] Connor: Yes.

[10:53] Lindsey: Yes.

[10:53] Lautsbaugh: Let's do an episode on heresy.

[10:55] Connor: Heresy. (laughs)

[10:56] Lindsey: Heresy.

[10:56] Connor: Yeah.

[10:56] Lindsey: Called Heresy Hunters.

[10:57] Connor: Yeah. Read, read Revelation and see if Jesus-

[10:59] Lindsey: Yeah.

[10:59] Connor: ... does something.

[11:00] Lindsey: Has some thoughts about heresy?

[11:01] Connor: Yeah, yeah.

[11:02] Lindsey: A heresy means a false, non-biblical teaching that is agreed upon by the entire church throughout history.

[11:10] Connor: Mm.

[11:10] Lindsey: It's not a difference of opinion. It is a false teaching. And the belief that the God of the Old Testament is a different God than the God of the New Testament is not tr- that's a false and non-biblical teaching, and all Christians agree on that.

[11:26] Connor: Mm-hmm.

[11:26] Lindsey: They de- they dealt with the people back in the day-

[11:29] Connor: Oh, yeah.

[11:30] Lindsey: ... who, who tried to put that forward.

[11:32] Lautsbaugh: Yeah, I, I think, uh, s- keeping our eyes on the big picture is important here too. Like wrath exists because sin exists. And even going back to the garden, you know, when the very first command was given, "Don't eat from this tree," God also said, "Because when you eat, you will die." Uh, so the idea that death is connected to sin was there from the beginning. And s- the heart of God there was, "So don't die. Don't eat of the tree. D- trust me, do it my way and live." But Adam and Eve, hum- humankind, we took matters into our own hands. We brought sin into the planet and the, the consequences of that are death.

[12:12] Lautsbaugh: And so the, it's the justice of God that gives sin what sin-

[12:18] Lindsey: To punish wrongdoing.

[12:19] Lautsbaugh: ... deserves.

[12:20] Lindsey: Mm-hmm.

[12:21] Lautsbaugh: And like-... w- we love grace, we love mercy, we love what Jesus did, but those things don't exist without justice.

[12:28] Lindsey: Yep.

[12:29] Lautsbaugh: And the, Jesus simply stepped in and took our place to receive the just punishment of sin upon himself, and we love the other side of that. We love the fact that we get forgiveness, that we have life, that we go to heaven, but we can't separate it from the, the, the p- the payment of death had to be made. Uh, and what is often kind of interesting, the wrath of God is, that, that is part of the goodness of God.

[13:02] Lindsey: Mm-hmm.

[13:03] Lautsbaugh: Um, I always think it would be interesting, what if we started singing worship songs about the wrath of God?

[13:07] Lindsey: (laughs)

[13:07] Lautsbaugh: Like, what would people do? But, but honestly-

[13:10] Lindsey: It is, it's part of-

[13:10] Lautsbaugh: ... we should be able to worship the wrath of God because it's not His bad side, it's part of His goodness. Um, but, but we just don't know, our brains don't compute.

[13:20] Lindsey: Well, let me put it in these terms, 'cause I actually think at our base, at our heart, everybody actually agrees with this, even Chris- people who aren't Christians agree with this. Oh, yeah Because we all, when we look at this, um, because of our, our sinfulness, honestly, our desire to not have accountability and to not have consequences, we are like, "Oh, this feels kind of, you know, uh, harsh, and God is harsh and angry all the time." And people have told me that. The same people who the, three weekends ago were marching in the streets Mm-hmm ... about some injustice they see in society, whether it's, uh, um, about unborn children, about racial injustice, about, um Whatever injustice in the world, yeah ... government corruption. Whatever it is, they're like, "We need accountability. Mm-hmm Like, right?

[14:12] Lindsey: And

[14:12] Lautsbaugh: Yes. We love justice when it doesn't apply to us.

[14:14] Lindsey: When it doesn't apply to us. (laughs) When it doesn't apply to us 100% And, and think about this. Think about this, that we see this in the news today and it breaks our hearts, because if God did not have accountability for sin, punishment for sin, He would not be good. He would be an indifferent, uncaring, um, god who does not care about our lives. Like, if I can be really honest, and this is an extreme example, um, frustration with all the sexual abuse and Jeffrey Epstein Mm Right? What sort of society would look at the Jeffrey Epstein situation and say, "Eh, he's probably a good, he probably meant well? Mm "He probably meant..." No. Like, a good person with a good heart says, "There should be accountability for what that man did. Mm-hmm And I mean, well, he committed suicide and didn't, you know, all the things to escape accountability, so deep is it. But like, if you were to put yourself in that position, like, I think everybody understands that at our heart. Now, that's extreme.

[15:22] Lindsey: You're like, "Well, I'm not Jeffrey Epstein." But when you break it down, we Go back to the sin episode Go back to the sin episode. (laughs Yeah Uh, you may not be Jeffrey Epstein. I hope you are not. (laughs (laughs)

[15:34] Lindsey: But I, I do wanna, I think we should be honest with ourselves. Even if you're not a follower of Jesus, can you not be honest? Yeah And say, "It is not a good God that looks at the injustices of the world, that looks at the abuse that people endure, that looks at the sins that we commit and says, 'Ah, no biggie.' Yeah "You know, people are trying their best." No, that's, that's a, that's not a good God Yeah, and a lot of people get upset about, "Well, why didn't God step into this moment?" Well, He is. He actually is Mm-hmm He actually has His, He's gonna pour out His wrath Yep ... and there's gonna be justice that is dealt with There's gonna be accountability there But again, then it's, "Oh, why is God doing that? Why would God, you know, whatever, send people to hell Yeah ... or, or let people die?" And it's like, well, damned if He did, damned if He didn't. The difference is, with God is that He does it perfectly, and He does it lovingly Yeah ...

[16:28] Lindsey: and He does it patiently And He takes it on

[16:31] Lautsbaugh: (sighs)

[16:31] Lindsey: And then He also, yes. He is, y- you know, we can't get deep into the Trinity here, but God Himself does go to the cross, okay? And Jesus chooses it And Jesus chooses it, and, and takes the wrath of God Yeah ... which I don't ever wanna be face-to-face with Yeah And He takes it on bec- out of love Yeah He is. He is the, the sacrificial lamb that, that, that is slain for our sins, and how beautiful that is. And so, um, when we're thinking of propitiation, it should not be, um... I think, Chris, you're really trying to hit this.

[17:06] Lindsey: It's not supposed to be a negative thing

[17:07] Lautsbaugh: Right.

[17:08] Lindsey: Yeah. The wrath of God is not a negative thing. It's, it's actually His, uh, fatherly heart that is, that I- it is, love is being displayed through His wrath. That's crazy And justice is satisfied

[17:20] Lautsbaugh: Satisfied, yeah.

[17:21] Lindsey: And je- justice is satisfied on the cross. So if you're sitting here listening to this, let me ask you guys, and someone's like, "Ooh, (sighs) I feel like God is angry at me, though." Like, sh- but isn't He sometimes angry at us

[17:40] Lautsbaugh: So, I mean, there's these, it's kinda one of the mysteries with God, that so, for believers, we, we know that all of our sin has been forgiven, so Jesus' sacrifice covered all sins, so we are 100% forgiven. Our sin is as far as the east is from the west. True. At the same time, God is what we say in theology, that He's immanent, He's personal, He is with us. He knows our weaknesses. He can empathize with that and walk us through our struggles. That is equally true. Uh, 'cause sometimes we would say like, "So if He remembers our sins no more, how does He walk me through what I'm struggling with?" Well, God can remember and forget at the same time.

[18:19] Lindsey: Mm.

[18:19] Lautsbaugh: We can't.

[18:20] Lindsey: (laughs)

[18:21] Lautsbaugh: Uh, and so we-

[18:22] Lindsey: Wait, God can remember and forget at the same ... I love that.

[18:24] Lautsbaugh: Like, when we s- if we strip the mystery away from God, if we make Him like us, we're gonna lean towards one or the other.

[18:30] Lindsey: Mm-hmm.

[18:31] Lautsbaugh: So, to get back to kinda your initial point, like, is, is God ever disappointed with me? So s-Through the forgiveness of sin, all sin is forgiven, so there is nothing t- for Him to be disappointed with. But we do struggle, we do have weaknesses. Paul said, "I do the things I hate," and God can help us journey through that and encourage us along the way, and challenge us to reflect more of Christ in our life.

[18:55] Lindsey: Mm-hmm.

[18:56] Lautsbaugh: But He's not sitting there just waiting for us to step out of line to throw the lightning bolts.

[19:00] Lindsey: Yeah.

[19:01] Lautsbaugh: Tha- that's a lie from the-

[19:01] Lindsey: 'Cause the punishment has been satisfied.

[19:02] Lautsbaugh: That's the lie from the enemy. The enemy, or ourselves, sometimes the voice of ourself will think, "I need to make myself pay 'cause, you know-"

[19:13] Lindsey: "That'll help me behave better."

[19:13] Lautsbaugh: "Grace was too, grace was too easy." And-

[19:16] Lindsey: Mm.

[19:16] Lautsbaugh: And sometimes we, we make ourselves pay more than God does.

[19:19] Lindsey: Yeah. And this is also, oh, there's gonna be an episode about sanctification. Um, and so definitely make sure you, you subscribe and make sure you get ready to listen to that, 'cause that's part of this conversation. But the punishment, like let's be clear, there, if you are in Christ Jesus, the, the punishment has been paid for I almost imagine when you said like the lightning bolt Yeah This is, this is not biblical at all, what I'm about to say. (laughs) It's like the superhero. It's like, if that lightning bolt, if you feel like that's about to strike Mm It's like Jesus just poop and He, He He just gets to know it It strikes Him Yeah.

[19:53] Lindsey: Yeah, He gets to know It strikes Him 'cause He Yeah

[19:54] Lautsbaugh: He took our place.

[19:55] Lindsey: He took our place. He absorbs. Even if there is a lightning bolt, it's gonna strike Him, not us. Yeah. Yeah. And so you are in right standing with Jesus

[20:03] Lautsbaugh: Mm-hmm.

[20:03] Lindsey: Like, the, there is no, "Oh, like, I, I accidentally lost it the, the day before," or whatever. Like, no, but what Jesus does want is this, this, uh, renewing of your life, this, you becoming more like Him, in the, made in the image of Jesus. And, and so that's, that's the process. And there's times where God does discipline us like-

[20:28] Lautsbaugh: There are consequences.

[20:29] Lindsey: And there's con- And there's consequences to sin.

[20:30] Lautsbaugh: Sure.

[20:31] Lindsey: But, but again, you have not lost your place with, with Christ that- That discipline is different than punishment Yes. Th- Or I would s- I would s- e- just in this conversation, discipline is different than wrath Yeah. Okay, that's

[20:44] Lautsbaugh: Mm.

[20:44] Lindsey: Totally, totally different cate- categories here.

[20:47] Lautsbaugh: Yeah.

[20:49] Lindsey: Yeah. Okay. (laughs)

[20:50] Lautsbaugh: That's a lot. (laughs)

[20:51] Lindsey: (laughs)

[20:51] Lautsbaugh: We got a little ti- couple tie-ins to a few other episodes there.

[20:54] Lindsey: (laughs) Yeah. So, uh So

[20:55] Lautsbaugh: I- if you're sitting with a big question right now, it might be answered in a f- or talked about in a future issue.

[20:59] Lindsey: So, so in summary, Chris, just tell us, two sentences again, propitiation is what?

[21:04] Lautsbaugh: The wrath of God has been taken by Jesus, uh, through His sacrifice. And as a result of that, eh, the, He loves us without anger, without judgment, without consequences for sin.

[21:18] Lindsey: Wow. Amen Amen. That's, that's what we have. And I pray and hope that if you're listening to this, and especially if you've been feeling like there is a little lightning bolt waiting, that deep in your heart you feel, "God's probably still angry with me." Um, that this truth, not our own truth, this is out of scripture, that it says in Romans 3:25 that, "God put forward Christ as a propitiation by His blood to be received by faith." And I pray that you receive that by faith in a fresh and new way as you're listening. So thank you for being with us. I hope that you will subscribe to this podcast so that you can continue on this journey and in the months ahead as we have real conversations about life with Christ. So we'll talk to you soon.

[22:04] Lindsey: (instrumental music Thanks for tuning in to the Pursue Reality Podcast. Reality Church is a local church in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. To learn more or get connected, visit us at pursuereality.org. (instrumental music)