PRP 65 | Can You Lose Your Salvation? - Big Words, Good God Series

In the final episode of the Big Words, Good God series, Pastor Lindsey, Pastor Connor, and Chris Laustsbaugh tackle a question many Christians wrestle with at some point in their faith: Can you lose your salvation?

The conversation explores two historic perspectives held by faithful Christians throughout church history. One view suggests that while salvation cannot be accidentally lost, a person could deliberately reject their faith and walk away from Christ. The other view holds that true salvation is secure because those who are genuinely saved are sealed by the Holy Spirit and cannot ultimately fall away.

Rather than trying to settle a centuries-old debate, the discussion focuses on what both views affirm: salvation is not fragile, God’s grace is bigger than our sin, and believers can live with confidence and assurance in Christ. The episode also addresses the spiritual battle believers face, reminding listeners that the enemy seeks to accuse and create doubt, while the truth of the gospel calls us to continually look to Jesus.

Ultimately, the encouragement is simple: if you care about your faith and are still running toward Jesus—even after stumbling—you can rest in the confidence of God’s grace and keep pursuing Him.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:10

You're listening to the Pursue Reality Podcast from Reality Church. Each episode is a conversation about what it means to be real people pursuing a better reality in Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

Welcome everyone to the Pursue Reality Podcast. This is Lindsay, and I am so glad to have you here. I'm one of the pastors here at Reality Church. And this is a final episode that we're doing in the series Big Words, Good News. And we're not going to introduce maybe any big words, but just talk about the good news a little bit more. But I have our experts that have been guiding us through this journey. I have Pastor Connor here with us. Hello, everyone. And I have Chris. Hey. And yeah, it's um it's been an incredible journey just walking through scripture, walking through some of these big words about our faith and our salvation, and just realizing the good news that this all is for us. Today we want to talk about a little um kind of hanging question, I think, that a lot of us wrestle with at some point in our faith. Um, and that is maybe the easiest way to say it is just by the question uh can you lose your salvation? Can you uh taste the goodness of God and experience salvation and then reject it or lose it or step out of it, or however you want to describe that? And I think this is a actually a good question because I think it is very common to the human experience as followers of Jesus at some point to say, wait a minute, like I've read scripture and it's not just our own thinking, but I've read scripture. I is this like a permanent thing? Can can I step out of it? And at what point do I? Like, what's that line if if that is true? And so we are going to talk about the two possible ways that you could answer that question. So I'm just gonna forewarn you. Um reality church is not have like this official position that we are declaring, but we do have an official um uh spectrum that we do think that uh good Christians hold in good faith.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

And so I thought we had the answer to the question that church history has been trying to ask and answer for thousands of years.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

There's that that all of church history should have listened to our podcast.

SPEAKER_03 2:52

Facts.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

Facts. Um and I would actually say the two of you hold a slightly different position, or you would answer this question in a slightly different way. Is that true?

SPEAKER_03 3:03

Yeah, that's probably we would answer it slightly differently.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

More similarities than differences because we would lean would be slightly different.

SPEAKER_01 3:13

Stated slightly different. So that's good. We like that. We think that's actually a sign of maturity. Um if you go to a church and everybody just kind of with sets their brains aside and just agrees on every tiny little point about scripture, you might be in a cult. So there's that. There's that. But so why don't we start um with Chris? Why don't you start just kind of giving us a lay of the land and how how we answer this question?

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Yeah, I and I think uh since there are different opinions throughout church history, it's always like in humility, we have to say that it's probably because this isn't totally clear. Uh, so it's it's good that we do that. Uh and I think as often when there's different perspectives on things, you can get the extremes. And so maybe just to start off, there's dangerous extremes on either side. Uh, and so if you think that you can have salvation and no longer have it, the extreme is that this is something that is fragile. You're constantly worried, am I still saved? Uh I just had a bad thought. You know, if I die right now, am I going to heaven? Like scripture never portrays salvation as fragile. Uh we there's a confidence that you can have in it. Uh, I think the and the other side of you know, if salvation is something that once you have it, you can never not have it. Uh you can get this apathy laziness, basically, I can do whatever I want. And once again, scripture never says, hey, punch your ticket and you're good to go, don't worry about anything. So the extremes are are not what we we would say those those aren't good on either side.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

And neither is in scripture.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

Right. Yeah. Um, but this this legitimate conversation about can you basically receive the gift of salvation, is that something that once you have the gift, you're like you keep that gift. Yeah. That's that God doesn't take it away or you can't uh walk away, or is it something that's in extreme circumstances uh can be something that I wouldn't say lose, but that you walk away from or you you give up, you reject. Um so yeah, uh I guess I should maybe I'll just start with one of the sides where where you um so one side would be that it's possible to to have the gift and then not have it. Um there there's a number of passages that's uh warn against this idea of apostasy. Uh 2 Thessalonians talks about this, 1 Timothy, Hebrews.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

So apostasy let's pause there, big words. That's a big word.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

So actually, when you said there's no big words, I was like, well, there might be a few words.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

There might be a few big words. Apostasy, could you just clarify that?

SPEAKER_00 5:52

So apostasy, it simply means to basically to leave or depart. Uh but if this would be a decision that you make about salvation, it's it's not accidental. Yeah. So the idea of losing your salvation, nobody purposely loses their car keys. Yeah. Like uh you can't accidentally lose your salvation. Uh but could you basically make a deliberate choice to walk away from the gift that God has given you and remain in that posture for the rest of your life? Uh so sometimes the apostasy is uh defined as a continual, a calculated, a uh deliberate walking away from God. And I think actually in the the biggest word there's continual, that you walk away and you never look back. Uh so this would not be, I wonder if I'm still saved.

SPEAKER_01 6:42

Or a crisis of the faith. I'm still doubt. It's not doubt.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

It's not uh an ongoing struggle with sin that you really want to deal with. It's I don't want anything to do with God anymore, and I'm gone, and I never reached. Yep. Uh so this would basically say if it's by faith that you can receive the gift, could a change of faith cause you to walk away from the gift? I don't think it's that God removes it, but our you know, if someone is a Christian and they become an atheist, is it possible that they are laying down or giving back that gift that they've received? Um and if they do that for the rest of their life, that would be meet the definition of apostasy. If someone be becomes an atheist for a few years, realizes that was stupid, they come back. I think scripture says God welcomes with with. So I personally think it is possible to commit apostasy. I think it's difficult. I think you have to work at it. And I think it is more of an issue of faith changing your faith than it is sin. Uh I think sin has been dealt with through what we've seen in our previous episodes, uh, with justification, all those things. Um that uh this is a change of faith. Now I do want to give a caveat that I do think continual repeated sin in our life is a dangerous thing that could lead us to walk away from Jesus. So that that would never be encouraged, you know, go reference to the sanctification issue uh episode. Uh but especially in Hebrews, it seems like the author of Hebrews warns them not to depart the faith. The they would have been tempted to, as Jewish Christians, to return to Judaism, that would be changing their faith. And he says, Don't do it, stay, endure, persevere. So it seems uh possible. Um but I I uh think it's it's difficult, and I don't think it's if someone has committed this, we're not s standing around scratching our heads going, so do you think they're still saved? I think we're like they're gone.

SPEAKER_01 8:43

Yeah. You know they're because they've said in the uh if you agree with interpretation to Hebrews, it would be a group of people that are like, I no longer believe Jesus is the Messiah. I don't I don't believe that he died for the sins of the world. It's not like, oh man, they're listening to secular music quite a lot.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

Or I'm struggling with the love of God right now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:07

Or I haven't done my quiet time in two years. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:10

It's you become a Muslim. You become a Muslim. I was gonna say yes, it's a transfer of allegiance. And never come back. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:19

Um that's the key one, is that the never come back description. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

So if you were to summarize my perspective, I would say I think it's possible to walk away from your salvation, but it's difficult and it needs to be a lifetime thing that you never, even on your deathbed, return.

SPEAKER_03 9:35

Yeah. Okay. But you you're and then and I think it's gonna be in the title of this episode, but you we are not saying you can lose your salvation.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

According to your view, that's a you're you're saying can you lose it? No. No. Can you reject it? Yes, yes, that's what that's what that view would say. Because some when we ask this question, I just want to say, like, most people, when we ask this question, can you lose it? We are kind of saying, can you wake up one day and realize I can't find my keys or something really valuable? I can't find it, I don't know what I did. Like what Chris is talking about is not that situation.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

And and I would also add, for anyone that specifically fears like the mark of the beast or something, you cannot be tricked into uh taking away your salvation.

SPEAKER_03 10:21

Yeah, you can't be tricked in in any way, shape, or form. Um but yeah, and so that would be that side of things. And I I Where would you stand on the way? I come from a different angle of um that there is a perm I would argue in the sense of someone who says that they have walked away from the faith, I would in a longer form in uh not as short form in a podcast, but in a longer form, I would probably say if you look at their life that they actually never accepted the the this the call of salvation in their life, they never declared Jesus as their follower uh as their savior and were a follower of him and they were not sealed um like it says in Ephesians by the Holy Spirit. Um, and so the reason I say that is because um uh when I think of a seal, it's a it's a it's a tight seal, it's a permanent thing that um I I have a hard time seeing people like uh or thinking of people losing the Holy Spirit. Like, can somebody uh be an apostate like seven times throughout their life? Maybe. I I I don't I don't really see that in scripture. The other thing um that I see, and I love this this passage here where Jesus is talking in John 10, um, my sheep hear my voice and I know them and they will follow me and I give them eternal life, and and this is the part that I think really sticks out to me, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hands. And Wayne Gerdom, uh famous theologian, has this quote that says, like, even the person, um, even the sheep that Jesus is holding, aka you, you cannot remove yourself from the hands of God, and even in Romans that talks about nothing in this life, neither death nor life, nor angels nor demons, nor height nor depth, can remove you from the love of God. I don't think it's directly talking about salvation there, but I but I do see this um this permanent uh permanency, I think that's the right word, of of salvation. Um, and so I think we can get into some tricky territory when we can say we can we can remove uh salvation and the finished work of Jesus in our life. Um but again, that's that's just me when I when I think of uh the finished work of of the cross and and the overwhelming grace when somebody's experienced that. I have a hard time um even just like anecdotally, this is again, I'm going anecdotally, this is not biblical. I have a hard time when somebody's experienced the grace of God to say, yeah, that's not real. Um, because of when I see the miracle um or when the people come to Jesus for another miracle after the feeding of 5,000, and he goes, he he's like, You gotta eat of my flesh, and all these people leave. And then the disciples go, they stay, they stay. And they and Jesus asks them, Why did you stay? And they're like, Where else can we go? And so to me, that's a mark of salvation, is like this I have nowhere else to go but you, Jesus. There should be a confidence in the security, there should be a confidence in security, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:36

And I think firm.

SPEAKER_03 13:38

Yep, we agree on that. We like I think when you're when you are saved, there is a security in that. Um But that Hebrews passage does like bring up some some good questions and something to to to wrestle with. But at the end of the day, the the the thing that we really want you to understand is this that like you you cannot it's not a good idea to sin, but you cannot outsin the grace of God in your life. Like there is some human struggles.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

Yeah, you cannot outsin God's grace. You're there's no line in the sand where it's like, well, I covered 99 sins, but that hundredth is now that's beyond beyond the limit of my capacity. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:23

And and I would think uh I see more people struggle with, you know, I do believe God forgives everybody, but can he forgive me? Um, you know, I I actually see more people wrestling with is the forgiveness of God as big as it is versus am I still saved? Um so I I think that's why we kind of did this order is like you need to understand the gift of God before you can even ask the question, is it permanent or not? Uh because it has to be so big that you're even like you have to see, is there an ability to potentially abuse this this grace, this forgiveness, this gift? Of course. Uh if there's not an ability to abuse it, you're not seeing grace big enough. Like it's you know, Paul, Paul in Romans chapter six, uh, you know, he says, Should we sin so that grace abounds? God forbid, by no means, like, but he doesn't say that's impossible.

SPEAKER_03 15:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

Like, of course, every time you and I sin, we are in some ways abusing the gift that we've been given. And we don't want to do it negate it. It doesn't negate it. Of course we can abuse this.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:31

Yeah, and you can still be a uh in it in that Romans passage, like you can be a slave to righteousness or a slave to your flesh. But one leads to death in a terrible life. Like Jesus came to give life and life abundantly. And so, but to to to come back to the this question, I think what we want you all to understand is this that there is security in the decision that you have uh when you declare Jesus as your Savior with your heart and with your mouth, that you're saying, God, I believe that you died on the cross for me, that you rose three days later, and that when I die, I will also raise to new life again with you. And so that there is assurance in that. There is uh blessed assurance, as the hymn says. Um, and there's that should invoke joy and confidence in us um and a and a worshipful uh uh posture towards Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 16:27

Yeah, I think sometimes too we we want to label something uh to try to maybe know what to do. Like we might have a friend or we have a family member that we're like, man, I'm just not sure, are they still safe? We don't need to determine if they're saved or not to respond with love, to call them into a deeper walk with Jesus. Like whether they're they've lost it or they still have it, the way they're living, they could live in a better way. That it it doesn't need to change how we treat them. And so I think like if anybody's struggling with it, I would echo the author of Hebrews that says, so how do you know if you're okay? Run the race, looking to Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of your faith. If you're doing that, you're okay.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

If you stumble a thousand times, get back up, keep going.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

Yeah, and because even that same metaphor in Hebrew says you lay aside the weight and sin that so easily entangles, but you're looking at Jesus, you're running towards him. It doesn't say there's the absence of weight and sin. You're not focused on the weight and saying you're focused on Jesus.

SPEAKER_03 17:24

In James chapter five, it also says if you do see people going astray, go after them in love. So either way, either if they're a brother and sister in Christ or not, you should still be going after them.

SPEAKER_00 17:36

Call them to a deeper walk of Jesus regardless of any label you want to put on them.

SPEAKER_03 17:41

Yep, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 17:43

That's really good. Um I I also as I think this conversation, I know a lot of times if you're asking this question or even struggling with it, there is a um we can try to solve, like if I have an intellectual answer that's going to help me with what I'm struggling with. And as you guys were talking, I was just thinking um of the spiritual battle that also is here and maybe like going back to the truth of God's word, number one. Like this is a spiritual battle, and I know Chris, you say often that we need to preach the gospel to ourselves every day and to remind ourselves of what is redemption, what is propitiation, what is faith, like what are these um, what is grace, like what scripture teaches about what God has done for us. Um, but I also think in the spiritual battle in Revelation it says um that Satan is the accuser of the brethren and he accuses them day and night. He hurls these it actually uses this world uh word in some translations that he hurls these accusations day and night. And I just want to say, like, I think for some of us, like get yourself in the truth. You can kind of go into this, um, like both these answers are still we're secure. Yes. Right? We're secure. If you're nervous because of I'm not quite sure, that means you're secure. Um, but also possibly consider that you're listening not to just your own thoughts, but the accuser is trying to accuse you. And he's trying to actually accuses before God. Like he's trying to accuse God, you know, in your mind. Like God is not sufficient for you. You know, he's not able to keep you. And uh yeah, just say, you know what, I probably need to deal with some of these lies and voices in my mind. This isn't this isn't something I need to be dwelling on. Um, and I need to get a bit more aggressive with it. Would you guys agree with me? 100%.

SPEAKER_03 19:52

100%. That's what the enemy does. That's what he did to Jesus in the desert. So he did in the garden. That's what he did in the garden. Yeah, that's what you like. He he is a liar. He is the accuser. And so yeah, that's why we take the the the truth of scripture. It's not just head knowledge, yeah, it is something to embed in our hearts. It's a spiritual battle. It is a spiritual battle in our lives. And so, and I liked what you said, and I want to highlight this as we as we get ready to close, is is if you're asking the question, you're good. You're good. That's what I mean. Yeah, if you care and you're worried, you are good. You are saved. That shows that the Holy Spirit is within you and that he's revealing sin in your life and revealing the need for God in your life.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

And if those sins bother you, then bring them to God and bring them to him and say, Man, I've got some stuff in my life. You know, practice repentance. Because a practice of repentance is a practice of immersing ourselves in the grace of God day by day, reminding ourselves of our salvation. Um, and don't let that become a place of separation or anxiety. Um man, the whenever God convicts me of sin, it's mournful for me, it's sometimes discouraging, but it's also a wonderful opportunity to go back to God and walk the gospel road again and again. His forgiveness, his grace is sufficient for everything. So I hope this encouraged you, I hope this gave you a few thoughts, um, and encouraged you to dig into scripture because there is the truth about Christ and what he has done, the truth about our own lives, and it only should build you up in your faith and hope. So I hope this episode has done that for you. So I hope you have a good week. Remember to subscribe to the podcast so you can continue to listen more wonderful episodes with fantastic people like us. That's a joke. So I'll talk to you later. Thanks for listening.

SPEAKER_02 21:54

Thanks for tuning in to the Pursue Reality Podcast. Reality Church is a local church in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania. To learn more or get connected, visit us at PursueReality.org.