PRP 66 | Standing for Truth in Love | Sally Jo & Katie

In this powerful and honest conversation, Pastor Connor sits down with Sally Jo and Katie Friesen to tackle one of the most challenging topics facing the Church today: how to stand for truth without losing love.

From personal stories to years of ministry experience, Sally Jo and Katie unpack the reality that sexual brokenness isn’t a “them” issue—it’s an all of us reality. Together, they explore how followers of Jesus can navigate conversations around LGBTQ topics, identity, and sexuality with humility, clarity, and compassion.

This episode doesn’t offer quick fixes or cookie-cutter answers. Instead, it invites you into the tension—the “dance” between truth and grace—and challenges you to walk alongside people in a real, messy, Spirit-led way.

Whether you’re a parent, student, leader, or someone personally wrestling through these questions, this conversation will equip and encourage you to:

•  Engage difficult conversations instead of avoiding them 
•  Love people deeply without compromising biblical truth 
•  Understand discipleship as a process, not a moment 
•  Trust God in the middle of the mess and the unknown 

At the heart of it all: Jesus isn’t intimidated by brokenness—and neither should we be.

🎧 Tune in and learn what it really looks like to stand for truth… in love.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:10

You're listening to the Pursue Reality Podcast from Reality Church. Each episode is a conversation about what it means to be real people pursuing a better reality in Jesus.

SPEAKER_04 0:39

Welcome everybody to the Pursue Reality Podcast. My name is Pastor Connor. I am the youth pastor here at Reality Church, and I have two awesome friends with us today. Why don't you guys go ahead and introduce yourselves?

SPEAKER_02 0:52

Yeah. I'm SJ and I come from the great state of Montana. Well, not originally. I come from Washington State, go Seahawks.

SPEAKER_05 1:01

Um, I am Katie Friesen, and I am also from Montana.

SPEAKER_04 1:06

Montana. Yes. That's incredible. Yeah, I absolutely love Montana. We do too. Yeah. You guys are freaking lucky.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

I mean, Lakster's pretty cool, but it's you know, the manure smell is just it adds a touch that Montana doesn't have. We have that like full fresh air smell. Okay, that's okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:23

That's fair. That's that's totally fair. Um, today we invited both of you for a very special um topic. Some would call it a hot uh button topic um today. And for the next few podcasts, we're gonna be talking about LGBTQ conversations, Christian sexuality, gender, and all that fun stuff. So make sure you guys uh so either subscribe or like this podcast um so that you guys can stay up to date. But can you just share with us a little bit why did we bring you two in for this conversation? Tell us a little bit about your maybe your expertise or your whatever, why we brought you guys in for this conversation today.

SPEAKER_02 2:06

Yeah, so I am I pioneer and or am leading now uh a ministry called Christ Centered Sexuality. It's based out of uh Mission Builders International, which is a ministry that exists to serve YWAM, which is Youth of the Mission, for those who don't know what YWAM is. But but yeah, so I've been kind of in this realm of studying, researching, teaching on, helping people engage the conversation of human sexuality, which is a very hot button topic. But what is God's heart for it? What is God's intention and purpose behind human sexuality? Why are we sexual beings? And then with all that comes all the hot button issues about that surround human sexuality, so LGBTQ stuff. I have my own story. Uh I have navigated same-sex attraction since my teenage years. And so I have a personal stake in this conversation. And a lot of my research started when I was trying to figure out how do I reconcile this piece of myself, this attraction, and and with my relationship with Jesus. And so that's how kind of everything started. I didn't I didn't enter into that process thinking that a ministry would be formed out of it, but that's what where God took it because I think it's one of the most needed conversations today. It's one of the people just need help kind of just diving in and understanding God's heart and intent for human sexuality. I know I needed that. And so I've been kind of in this space on human sexuality, researching it, studying it, engaging the topic now for probably about since since I went to seminary back in 2017. So the last how I mean, six, seven, eight years. So I've just been a researcher on it, learner on it, and then my own experience with it. So it's kind of all the thing. So it's awesome. Katie, what about you?

SPEAKER_05 3:50

Well, I've worked with uh ministry for probably about 18 plus years. Um, been working with YWAM, Youth with a Mission, and we see so many youth come through our programs, and we're seeing um just a need for this conversation. But also, I think in my own journey, I've re recognized where my sexual brokenness has played a piece in my walk with the Lord and how to navigate that. Met uh Sally Jo when we were doing a school of biblical studies together and have journeyed with her and have been a part of some of what the Lord has been doing in her life, and then seeing how the Lord is bringing people into our programs that really need to know about this conversation, have questions, just done a little bit more research and learning different things, and really feel like this is an avenue that God wants to disciple us in. And so that's kind of that's awesome.

SPEAKER_04 4:54

Yeah, and in one of the episodes here soon, um, we're gonna hear a little bit more about your guys' personal friendship and story and how all this relates. So super excited to hear about that. Um today's conversation. So like you both mentioned, like we have students coming in into college or ministry programs, 18, 19 years old, and they're seeing things on TikTok, Instagram, um, adults are seeing things on Facebook, the news, and all whatever platform they've chosen. Um, this is a conversation, whether it's laws being passed, conversations at schools being had, and even the church is now being thrown into this and having conversations. And do we affirm, do we not? Like, what do we do with our kids? What like there is so much out there. And there's so much to to listen to, podcasts to consume, uh Instagram videos and reels and all this stuff. And so today's conversation, what we want to do is just kind of round table conversation about like what do you do as a churchgoer? Whether you are a parent, you are a college age kid, you are somebody who struggles with same-sex attraction, you have your own sexual brokenness, which spoiler alert, it's all of us, um, which we'll dive into a little bit here in a second. But like, we just want to talk about how do you navigate this as a churchgoer, the LGBTQ conversation. And so could you both just like speak on maybe your experience in church and maybe where you've seen it done right? Maybe some areas that have been not so great. Um, but yeah, I would just love to open the floor um for that conversation.

SPEAKER_02 6:47

Yeah, I think the number one thing is that we I mean, there's a people and Christians and churches have a variety of responses to this conversation. Some will kind of stick their head in the sand and avoid it. Uh, I think that that's wildly problematic because we can't avoid, we can no longer I I don't think we have the luxury of avoiding this. Uh, I think uh the area of human sexuality is one of the most important topics. Um it's it's something about it's it's one of the most important things about us as human beings, in my opinion. God created us as sexual beings, God has a plan and a purpose for our sexuality. Um, that He has plans and purpose for sex, our bodies, all that kind of stuff. And so to just like not talk about it or not engage it or not want to learn about it or not try to grow in our understanding, I think we do a disservice to not just ourselves, but to the people around us because we are, spoiler, we are all sexual beings and then we're all broken in that because we live in a Genesis 3 world. And so I don't think we have the luxury or uh to to just remain silent and and just avoid it. Um, I also think there's a lot of fear around the topic. Um, like you said earlier, this is a hot button issue. There's a lot of opinions, there's a lot of feelings about this kind of thing. And so I think there's Christians that will kind of they'll avoid it though they'll they for a variety of reasons, but they also are scared to talk about it because they don't want to offend someone. And I don't think that's an option either. So we have to the the the option moving forward, we have to find a way move to move forward and engage in conversation, and we just have to start talking about it. Uh, and as we start talking about it and we as we start kind of normalizing conversations about human sexuality, we get more comfortable with it. The fear alleviates. I think the enemy is having a heyday on this topic right now, and um and and we just I also think like it's it's not helpful to just um just throw out our like opinions or feelings on this topic without like thoughtfully thinking about them and how they how my opinion or well if it's truth and that kind of stuff. Like we have to be thoughtful with how we present our opinions, we have to be thoughtful with how we engage this topic because uh I and I think I said this when when I spoke to youth group the human sexuality or sexual brokenness is not a category of people, it's not a not a them problem, it's actually an all of us problem, it's a human condition. And I think sometimes um, yeah, we in the church we can think that sexual brokenness is something people outside of the church experience, but in my experience, sexual brokenness is sitting in every single chair that's filled in the church service. So, um, and we're all dealing with it, we're all trying to figure out how to manage it, navigate it, and help uh surrender it into the loving lordship of Jesus Christ. So, yeah, and there I I probably could say more about that. I'm sure you have opinions and thoughts.

SPEAKER_05 9:46

I I think that where I have seen this maybe not done super well at times is that I think that as believers, we really want to have like a cookie-cutter answer that would just apply to every situation, and it can feel really uncomfortable to sit in the tension of um we really need to be intentional with every new situation that comes, and even just modeling what Jesus did and the fact that he looked at every person as a different situation and really spoke to where they were at. And so I think with these kinds of conversations, we just need to recognize that there are different things that are going to maybe need to be walked out differently with different people and God's timing and things, and so I think that we don't like to sit in the uncomfortable and and I think that the Lord wants to challenge us in being willing to do that, to walk alongside people.

SPEAKER_04 10:51

Yeah, that's so good. I I'm curious for both of you. I'm thinking of of something you just said, SJ. Why why is there not just around the LGBTQ issue, but sexuality in general, why has that been something in the church that's just been so hard? You you have the the purity culture that came around back in the day. You had kiss dating goodbye if you're old enough to remember that. You have Gen Z that's like willing to talk about it, but and as a youth pastor, I'm willing to talk about it. But then I have kids going, you can't talk about that in church. I literally had a student one time and I was like, You're you're you're literally talking about biology and God created sex. Of course, I'm gonna talk about it in church. Why why do you think this has been such a difficult thing and and such an uncomfortable thing when it's been brought up in church, in your experience, what you've seen, what you've researched?

SPEAKER_02 11:49

I I I I mean, there's so many ways to answer that question. Sure. The first the first thing that I will say that like church, church history and how the church has actually handled the conversations on sex, sexuality, like you can go back to any point in church history, and we've actually not handled this conversation well. We've pendulum swung between marriage is more spiritual or singleness is more spiritual. There is a season in church history where um single singles were considered more spiritual because they weren't having sex and um and and married people they they were having sex, and and sex was actually looked at as just generally a like sinful because and I think that's because the the messaging around sex, because the the enemy has had such a monopoly on on controlling the narrative on sex for so long, um, and crow controlling the narrative on our sexual behavior, our sexual like he's had a he's had a heyday in this area, and so therefore his narrative of it's dirty, it's wrong, it's sinful, um, no matter if you're doing it in the right context or the wrong context, like that narrative has captured the hearts and minds of humanity and Christian, Christian Christians too. And so, like, one so one of my hearts in teaching this is that like no sex is actually created by God. It's a Genesis one and two. Uh, it's out of Genesis one and two, not a Genesis three. Now it was fractured in Genesis three, and the enemy has had a really good narrative on sex, but that doesn't mean that he has the only narrative in sex. And and I I think we've I I like to frame it in the sense of a story. The enemy has a story about sex, but so does God. Um, and and if we and so so historically Christians have just never been good at talking about this. And so like there, and there's so many reasons why I think a lot of that is because we've been captivated by the what the the enemy's narrative is. Um but yeah, and out of that, so like purity culture, there's this kind of uh, and I and I'll uh talk about this at the parents thing, but it's like there's like if we approach sex from a like a theology of no, which is like what we can do, and it doesn't mean that there's boundaries don't exist around sex, it doesn't mean that God doesn't have a plan and a purpose that re that do does involve the word no, because I do think there that does exist. But what my issue with purity culture is that it it had this theology of no, of like, no, no, no, no, no, no sex, no sex, and then you get into a marriage situation and you start having sex and it's the best thing ever. And and from my experience talking to people that have come out of purity culture, and not with my stor my my story is a little bit different in how it related to purity culture. Purity culture could what purity culture commun communicated to me, or someone that has a story the a same-sex uh attraction experience like I do, was that gay people go to hell. And and and I and the 90s, Date Bargatsi or Bargett's, whoever however you say his last name, he says like 90s was like the most Christian. Um and like like the and and he's not wrong, or but but it felt like that. But but there were just a lot of narratives, and so I like as a teenager who I and I didn't have always have the language that I do now. My my story is a is a little bit of a process, and we'll talk about that at a different at a different episode. But but the church has just historically not had the right narrative or story on this. God's story with sex, his intention with it is so beautiful, so rich, so deep. And I think the enemy has actually done a really good job at blinding us to that. And so what I do or I what I see kind of what I have to offer with Christ center sexuality in my story is that like in order to combat the enemy story, we have to offer a better story of sex. We have to offer a better story of what God's intent is and purpose is for it because it's actually good and beautiful. Uh, I think I mentioned this at some point, like like sex is is a creative process that creates more images of God. Um, that that's one of the things that sex does. It does so much so many things. But the like when the and that's a that's a beautiful thing. That's that's awesome. And so even that alone, you could sit and talk about that for hours of like how the the image of God, how precious it is. And so for me, I see like there's so many layers to this conversation. The theology is so intertwined in a variety of different ways. So yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 16:23

Probably like my guess is fairly new conversation for like the in-depth conversation about sex in the church, is that because what we have been taught, even me going to I I didn't really grow up super Christian going to church, but what I understood was you don't have sex before marriage, and it's between a guy and a girl, and stay away from porn. And that was the advice. And we haven't had the space to have these conversations, and so when um, and then the church has also sometimes made all right, this is the week we're talking about sex. Youth groups have done it, we're splitting the guys and girls, you know, as a youth pastor. I have I have done that. So um, it's one of those things that's the taboo. We're gonna talk about this once a year, not in our normal rhythm of of life, because I think what you said, the enemy has made this uh made it a shameful thing. And so um I'm curious for a churchgoer, how do we start and I want to bring in the LGBTQ community in this conversation? Um how do we start having these conversations at church? How do we start talking about sex? How do we handle um when we somebody's sexual brokenness is revealed, whether it's through uh someone's divorce or a confession about pornography or um a lesbian or gay couple walks walks into a church and like how do you how do you how do you love people but also handle the the truth of scripture? Like this like even for myself, like this is a really, really hard topic, even for somebody who's listening to this and they're they're same-sex attracted and they're trying to find a church and do this church in Jesus thing. Um, you have like 30 seconds to answer this question. I'm kidding. Um, but can you just can both of you just speak on that? Like, what can the church start doing? What can the normal church goer who has kids, who doesn't have kids, he's a college student, like how can we navigate this?

SPEAKER_02 18:37

Yeah. My friend Lori says this is it's kind of in a nutshell. She's like, we need to hate our own sin and love everybody. That's and so that's the first thing. Like it, like we don't get we we should not be in the luxury of judging one another's brokenness or or or being scared of someone's brokenness. Like we need to we're humans in the human condition is really good about judging and making assumptions on other pe another person's story and journey. And and so I that's something that like okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna focus, I'm gonna take this this what is it, the log out of my own eye before I look at the speck in my neighbor's eye, and and I'm going to look at my own sin and my own story, my own process with God, and be like, okay, what what do I need to do that's better? I'm I'm in my own process. We're all in a process, that's a reality. And then I'm gonna do love someone well. So that's like the the the first thing. The second thing is like you just what are the person's names walking through the door? Like, what is their story? Who are they as a human being? Um I can tell you my my experience of sexuality is not my only uh form of brokenness that I'm navigating. I am a holistic person. I have I have other forms of brokenness because I'm human, but I also have like hobbies and interests and things that I'm that I'm a whole person. Yeah, I'm a whole person. And so like if we boil down, if we boil people down to the to to their their the things that they are bent towards with sin or whatever it is, if we boy if that we make their life about their sin issues, uh the things that they're tempted by that, like we're we're gonna miss what God has for that person because at the end of the day, that's not who that person is. God Jesus died to save them out of their sin. And so I I mean for me, if it's me, if I if if if I notice someone coming into church um and and I the first thing we should do is be like, hey, I'm so glad you're here. Um and welcome I I mean there's other things I want to say, but like, welcome to the journey, you know, like welcome to the journey with God. And everyone's journey is different. We are all on this pathway of uh maturing in Christ. We are all on this journey of figuring out how to submit our sinful hearts to Christ, and that's a process. It's a journey. Um, I think the last time I was here is like I think it was like three years ago. I always said I said something along the lines of like, like a lot of times we want like the the quick results, like of throwing a burrito in a microwave, and we want that quick satisfaction of of food. Well, that may not may not settle really well, but God is a crock pot God. He loves He loves He loves throwing all the ingredients into a thing and creating something beautiful. So I mean that's that's my initial response. I know Katie has always has really good things to say. So thanks.

SPEAKER_05 21:22

Um I think what I would want to say is Jesus is not intimidated by our mess or anyone's mess. And so we don't actually need to be intimidated by the things that walk through our door either when we recognize that man, this is not up to me to uh fix another person, or and I think even that language is wrong, you know, if we're thinking about things that way. I think our our hearts might be good in the sense that man, we really want people to know the truth and and know. How to walk in the truth. But I also think that we have to recognize, like Sally Joe is saying, that there is a journey and there is a process in that. And what is the Lord's timing to bring people along in that process? Um, it may look different than what I think it should, or what I want it to, just like my journey probably looked different than maybe my parents wanted it to, or just different things like that. And so I think in that sense, if we're really leaning into the Lord, then we can readily welcome anybody through our doors and say, I'm so glad that you're here. Will you walk alongside me as I'm learning to journey with the Lord and I can show you more of what that looks like? Uh and just being okay with what that process is.

SPEAKER_04 22:55

That's so good. That's so good. Yeah, the process of what the Bible calls sanctification, essentially meaning becoming more in the image of Jesus. Um you said you spoke to uh you've referred to this, but you spoke to our students um this past Monday night, and um you said this this this this line or this phrase, this teaching point of like God didn't reveal doesn't reveal our um our sexual brokenness as like some heterosexual people like right away. Yeah, but he slowly deals with it. And like even even for myself, like as a teenager dealing with pornography, yeah, and and throughout my college years, and I remember like trying to follow the Lord and being like, God, I don't want to do this anymore. And to the point where like I had to ask like five or six guys to just pray for me. And then I had this super literally this this supernatural breakthrough where like I felt a chain break in my chest. It was the first time I ever felt that, and and that was incredible. And then I got to the church, started working at a church, and like, oh, this is not a normal thing to like talk about our sexual brokenness. Um and I think for this conversation, I think having that conversation and normalizing and understanding you said this a million times these past few days is we all have some sort of sexual brokenness. It just depends on the the the package it comes in. And so um now here's here's the the tension we're we're we're living in is this we're in a culture where these things not just LGBTQ, but just sexual freedom is is celebrated. Um and I would love to end this this uh episode with like how do we still um I would I would love for you to talk about the messiness, the rubber band, the wrestling of like standing for truth, living in truth, um, but also showing that that grace and that love. Like can you just encourage us as church members to to do that? Like, how do we not go so far in the truth where we're we're cold, then we're pharisaical, but where I think in in our culture where we're so afraid of like too much grace, which you've even mentioned before, is is also hurtful to not stand for truth, to not uh say like, hey, this is what we believe that what the Bible says about this. Can you just encourage us?

SPEAKER_02 25:32

Encourage everybody, how do you do it? Yeah. I mean, I I mean you can't do it without the Lord. Uh you can't do it without the Holy Spirit. Uh this is for me, this topic, if we are going to navigate, if we're gonna disciple anybody, we need to be people of prayer, in my opinion. And I think this the concept that I've grown to like, or the language that I use around this, that you have the language of truth and grace. Um, truth and grace came in the form of a person his name was Jesus, and he the way he was able to like I mean, the woman caught in adultery is one of my favorite stories. Like, he like women were you were those that would condemn you. I don't condemn you either. But then so there's the grace, but then he said, Go and sin no more. Um, and and and you just see that all throughout this Jesus just interacting, and and one of my goals is that when I'm studying the gospels, when I'm looking at who the person of Jesus is, I always look for like, okay, how did he speak truth? How did he extend grace? Um, and and the language that I've kind of grown to to use with this is um you have truth and grace, but then with that, like I kind of put like ethics in the same, like scriptural ethics in the same or morality. You can kind of put that in the same of like truth. Like so truth, like as Christians, I believe that we get our ethics, our our morality, like what we're supposed what we should and shouldn't do from from truth, from scripture. And that actually sets up like okay, that's that's the that's the gold standard, that's what we're moving towards. Like, like so when it says like you know, be patient, like that's that's the that's what God wants us to do. Um, that's the goal. I need to be patient. Now the process of me becoming patient is always is is where I need a lot of grace. Um especially if I'm hungry, you know, you're right. So it's like, so like, but like, and so the process to which, like I have my goal, God says be patient. Um, but the process to which that I he's getting me there, I need, I need the grace. And so I've used the kind of that of like, okay, that's the that's the pastoral care, that's the discipleship thing. So it's like, and these things, they're not at odds with each other. Uh grace and truth are not at odds with one another, they work together. Uh uh ethics and pastoral care work together. They're not at odds with one another. They're they they actually need one another to keep one uh each other accountable. And so the language that I use with this is that like we have truth and grace, and they're they are two partners in a dance. And and at any given time, truth is gonna be leading out. At any given time, uh pastoral carol grace is gonna be leading out, and and the music that tell that communicates is is prayer. Like, we need to be people of prayer to know that like because when you're like discipleship is is we want it to be black and white, it's not. Ethics is black and white, truth is black and white, the process of a person and discipleship is gray. Um, and we're moving them towards something like this image and and of Jesus. But man, do we need to be people of prayer and intercession that it that when we're engaged in in the discipleship of a person's life, like we need to know when do we drop that that that understanding of truth? And I think I used this term the other, we're kind of like we're meant to guide people to the scriptures, we're meant to be their tour guide, but like Katie said, like we can't change them, we can't fix them. We actually need the whole, they need the Holy Spirit. Um, they're in their own process of learning how to submit and mature in Christ. And so, so like so when you're walking with someone, you you pray like, okay, Lord, does this person need truth right now? Do they need just the truth of the gospel, of scripture, of hey, like you have you've had you've had a dishonesty problem. The Bible has something to say about dishonesty. So here's and here's what that here's what it says we we don't lie, we don't bear false witness. Like the Bible is black and white with some of this stuff. Yes, but the process to which to help someone not lie, like that's a process. Like, if especially if they have a habit of lying, like think about that, and and so we have our goal, we know what the truth says, but like the discipleship and the dance to get them, like they need this dance of truth and grace, and and they and they hold they hold one another accountable, they work together to form a person.

SPEAKER_03 29:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 29:40

Um, and just and that's what Jesus did. Like he you like, and I mean truth and grace came in the form of a person, and so that's what that's kind of my thing of like, hey man, like when we see when we when we have people coming through our doors into our programs, into our churches or whatever, like like sometimes we want to we see something wrong or we see sin behavior or whatever, and the first thing we want to do is just like like here's the truth and and just do it.

SPEAKER_04 30:05

Or we want pastor to preach on it and say, make a stand, take a stand. Exactly. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 30:11

And and the the Christian life is just a little bit more intricate than that, like because it's relational. Um like if you want someone to change, or if you see some a behavior in a person, my my suggestion is like, okay, well, you can be judgmental from a distance, or you can get involved in that person's life, love them, get to know them, let understand why they are the way that they are, and then participate in prayer and intercession for that person and actually be an active participant in their discipleship process. Like we get to partner when people God brings people into our lives, we get to partner with God on their journey. It's beautiful. God is already working in their lives and we get to partner with God. God is a whole and our role is we can't we don't fix them, we don't change them. Um we we love them, we try to be a road, uh help, a guide through the scriptures. Um I'm a little bit further down my maturity. Well, sometimes it depends on the maturity, whatever. Sure, sure, sure. Yeah, but like depends on the day. Yeah, it depends on the day on the on the maturity level. But like as far as like I've I've processed a lot about my experience with human sexuality and my my my brand of brokenness. And so I feel like I've I've come to some pretty hard places of surrender in in a lot of ways. And so I'm further down the road than than a brother or sister that's fresh out of, you know, uh out of the LGBTQ community and and is looking for Jesus or has found Jesus and they walk into church for the first time. Like, like so I understand the journey that they're about to start. Um I'm further down the road in my maturing and and well, like my journey with Jesus or whatever. And so, um, but like I think of where I was 17 years ago. Sure. I was a train wreck, man, and it's been a 17-year process and um a process of learning how to surrender to the Lord. But yeah, that was that was a lot.

SPEAKER_04 31:52

That was a ramble. That was true. Yeah, it's great. And then and Katie, I would love for you to close this up, but I also just want to speak to those because what you said is is so profound for us in our discipleship and our care for other people. I think of the parents that see their kid in some sort of sin, sexual brokenness, same-sex attraction, prodigal sonning, whatever. Or you have your parents are, or you have a friend that you care and love for. And I think a lot of people are listening to this with somebody in mind. Like they saw this podcast episode and they saw, they are like, I need to hear this for somebody else. And what people need to know is there is no one fix all. There is no, it is the messiness of the journey. But what you can do is get on your knees before the Lord and you can love them through it and and learn to boogie a little bit, learn to dance, right? Learn to dance in this, and you're not always gonna get it right, but you're but if you go in it with with understanding what the truth is and and with gentleness and kindness and ready to to to go on the pilgrimage of of this, um, then that that's what discipleship looks like. And so um just want to encourage some people, but yeah, Katie, what it what else you got for us?

SPEAKER_05 33:15

I guess I would add it helps if you know the word. Um, it helps to read the Bible. Yeah, that's pretty good, I guess. I think that is that's one thing that I think I would say um is really important for us when it comes to like knowing the truth and not not swinging too far into the grace category. We actually need to know what scripture says about things. But I think that that dance of grace is so valuable and important as well. Um, and fearing the Lord, getting on your face before the Lord, just recognizing that he is the one that does the work, and also just allowing him to speak to you when when is the right time to say something? When is the right time to shut our mouths? I'm married with three kids. I don't always do this well, even in my relationship with my husband. It's like I I want certain things to be different.

SPEAKER_03 34:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:08

And at times, and I feel like the Lord has really been putting his finger on me with when do I say certain things and when do I close my mouth. Um, and I think just even in the Bible, it says fearing the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and just recognizing that he has a way forward for us in that. But I think that prayer I've I've known in my own life too, in my own times of not walking with the Lord, where people in my life have really just they've they've said the truth to me. They haven't shied away from it. But then after they've said it, they've taken some steps back to just pray. And it was, it was, I think that journey of prayer and surrendering me to the Lord that actually allowed me to walk that journey and really come to a place of recognition in my own life. It's scary, I think, for us to do that because we want people to avoid the pain. We want people to avoid the hurt that we feel like they're driving into with this. And yet I look back on my own story and I say, we serve a redeemer God. And I think even as a parent, I have felt at times that the Lord has said, you may not be able to keep your kids from everything in this world that will hurt them, but you need to trust that I am a redeemer of all things. And for me, I think he's challenged me to not live as a parent in fear. Um, when I look at the people that I disciple, I think the Lord is challenging me to not walk in fear and that panic of, I don't want you to experience this. And yet recognizing that God can either use it, he also is capable of steering them all on his own. And so just what does it look like to release that control to the Lord? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:08

That's huge. Yeah. And and I just hope uh for us as reality church or whoever is hearing this or watching this, um would learn to just uh be in the messiness of the dance and have grace for yourself, have grace for others because and grace for the church, just other church members, staff members, pastors, like this is when you step into the mess, the floor's a little slippery. Like it's it's gonna be a little hard. And some of us are not really good at dancing, you know what I mean? To use the analogies, and so um, but thank God it does not end with us. But there is a there is a God who loves us, every single person. Uh and he and like you said, if somebody's walking through the doors of a church, God's already working in their lives, and so we can be, we can trust in him and we can we can put our full assurance in him. So thank you too for this awesome, awesome episode. If you want more content like this, make sure that you guys subscribe, check out the next few episodes, and we'll see you next time. Thanks everyone. Boom, that was great. That was fantastic. That was great.

SPEAKER_01 37:21

Now it's hot in here. That's okay.

SPEAKER_00 37:24

Thanks for tuning in to the Pursue Reality Podcast. Reality Church is a local church in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. To learn more or get connected, visit us at pursue reality.org.