Idolizing Marriage | Sally Jo & Katie | Pursue Reality Podcast Ep#67

In this episode of the Pursue Reality Podcast, we dive into one of the most overlooked conversations in the church: the idolatry of marriage, sex, and relationships. What happens when we make marriage the ultimate goal instead of Jesus? How should Christians think about singleness, celibacy, intimacy, desire, and sexuality through a biblical lens?

Connor sits down with Sally Jo and Katy for a raw, thoughtful, and deeply theological conversation about human sexuality, identity, and the gospel. Together, they unpack how marriage and singleness both point to Christ, why sexual desire itself isn’t something to fear, and how the church can begin having healthier, more honest conversations about intimacy and fulfillment.

This episode challenges cultural assumptions, confronts unhealthy narratives inside the church, and ultimately points listeners back to the greatest love and deepest intimacy found in Jesus. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:10

You're listening to the Pursue Reality Podcast from Reality Church. Each episode is a conversation about what it means to be real people and pursuing a better reality in Jesus.

SPEAKER_04 0:39

Hey everybody, welcome to the Pursue Reality Podcast. My name is Connor. I'm the youth pastor here at Reality Church. And I have brought back our friends. Why don't you guys introduce yourselves if they didn't listen to the last episode?

SPEAKER_02 0:53

Uh I'm SJ or Sally Joe, and I reside from originally the great state of Washington, Ghost Seahawks, but now last 17 years, I think I've been, I know I've been in Montana.

SPEAKER_03 1:08

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Um, I'm Katie Friesen, and I also live in Montana. Originally I'm from Colorado. I didn't say that last time. Uh, and I've been there for about 17 years. I am married and I have three kids.

SPEAKER_04 1:22

Amazing. Amazing. And I would suggest to go ahead and listen to our um other two episodes um that we had these awesome ladies come out for. Um we have been talking about LGBTQ. We've been talking about sex, we've been talking about all the things, church and how all that blends together. And so this episode is gonna be uh a little bit of bonus content. Um tonight we have our uh parent equipping night where Sally is gonna share some information on helping parents uh equip their kids and equip themselves to navigate the cultural moment that we're in. But in this episode, what we're gonna do is these two are gonna share their wisdom, their the deep wisdom that they have uh collected throughout these years of just Christian sexuality, because we have in our world have just made LGBTQ like this singular thing when really it's a part of a grander narrative that we're all a part of, which is sexuality, sexual brokenness, and all of that. And so just love to hand the mic over to you guys. Can you just tell talk to us about sex? What do we need to know? What do we need to stop talking about? All the things just talk to us.

SPEAKER_02 2:40

Yeah, no, uh, this is a conversation I could carry on for a long time. And we just be and and I'm and I didn't think I said this. I'm I'm single and I'm committed to celibacy. So I don't see myself getting married to a man. Uh I don't, that's just, I don't think I'm called to that. I really enjoy my life as a single person. So I mean I could talk about singleness and celibacy, marriage and all that kind of stuff. But uh the reason why I can talk about it is because in my my journey of researching this stuff the last six, seven, eight years, since eight years now, I it is it's 2026. Like COVID's, I still am on COVID time somehow. And like I think it derailed the timeline in some capacity. It definitely did. And stuff, and so I've just lost so, but I've I've I've done a deep dive in this, and I'm gonna talk about this at the parents' night, but I'm but I'm barely scratching the surface. It was really hard for me when I have four and I told you this, I'm like 45 minutes and then 45 minutes. Uh I have content, hours and hours of content that I could teach on this stuff, and I do. Um, but I think I think it's important what I want, what I want your listeners, watchers, whatever, to understand human sexuality is so rich, so deep. Um, I have been studying this now, and I'll continue to study it, and I I have I don't I still haven't learned everything. Like there are people that I'm learning from a lot a lot of people that are a lot smarter and wiser on this stuff than I am. But just as I've been able to do my own work on this the last six, seven, eight years now, and um and like I am realizing God's heart plan purpose for for our sexuality as sexual beings, which we are, we are sexual beings. I'm sorry if that makes you feel uncomfortable. Uh if you as a listener, you have sexual desires. Um unfortunately, those sexual desires have been fractured. Um, and you they've been captivated by the story that the world would want to tell you, and say then Satan, and um it's not just the LGBTQ community that's been captivated by the the brokenness of sexuality, and and it's it's it's all of us. Um uh straight people are not more non-broken. I don't know what the right term is, but I think for so for me, like I like just learning learning this stuff, I I kind of am building a framework for human sexuality and God's heart for it, God's story for it, God's intent through it through four different lenses, actually. Um, the four different lenses I have on human sexuality are theology of the body. So the body matters, because we're created in embodied flesh. Uh, theology of marriage. Uh marriage was created pre-fall, so Adam and Eve were the first marriage. Um, the Bible also ends with a marriage, uh, the ultimate marriage, where the bot the church is married to Christ, marriage supper of the Lamb, and we're married, whatever. So, um, and then the rest of the Bible, all in between, is like this incredible, the story of this incredible pursuit of God for uh for his people. So, okay, marriage is significant. Then you have theology of sex. Um, we are sexual beings. Why are we sexual beings? Like sex is a part of the human experience. Um God has a plan for it, God has a design for it, God has a purpose for it. Um, he makes, I believe that the Bible is actually very clear on God's plan and purpose for human sexuality. Others will and do disagree with me on that, and that's fine. Um and a lot of, but then there's a lot of people that really agree with me on that. And and so, but then there's also the theology of singleness, um, and the the well, and I you can throw celibacy in it. Like, what is the theology of singleness and celibacy? And I view all of those frameworks, those four frameworks or lenses, as stuff that we all have to grow in as Christians to really capture God's heart and intent for human sexuality. Human sexuality is not just sex and marriage or uh no sex before marriage, as Christians often like to, whatever. Like human sexuality is and and us being sexual beings is something that is um, I I think it's a pretty primary issue uh that we are all facing and navigating in some capacity. And and we all I think, I think how we need to commit ourselves as Christians, in my opinion. And maybe it's just because I I care a whole heck of a lot about it, but um, if you look around the like we need to we need to commit ourselves as Christians, as disciplers to learn and grow about God's heart and intent for human sexuality. And when I say human sexuality, I mean those four frameworks. So theology of the body, theology of marriage, theology of sex, and theology of singleness and celibacy. Um, all of those are telling a story about who God is, who we are, and his plan for humanity. And they are all very rich, deep, and robust. Um, but yeah, no, I could so and and that's like I I'm gonna talk a little bit about, but we could and yeah, I've rambled along. Katie, you have things to say.

SPEAKER_01 7:40

Always I don't know if I have a ton more to say about that, but I think when I think about us being created as image bearers, we have to realize that if that's really true, then every part of us physically is meant to bear the image of Christ. And so that includes our sexual behavior, that includes uh who we are in our identity, that includes the way that we walk out our singleness, the way that we walk out our marriages and the other relationships that we have in our lives. So I think that we our heart really is to look at these things holistically because it matters. It really matters when it look when we look at being image bearers, how are we bearing the image of Christ in all things? Um, how are we talking about things? And I think for me, I'm growing in my understanding, even as a married person, you know, what ways have I looked at the theology of marriage differently than I should be looking at it, or not as deeply as I should be looking at it? What is it meant to represent? What is you know my sexual relationship with my husband meant to represent? And how does that uh offer richness in all of those things? How am I modeling that to my kids and to the world around me? So all of those things I think come into play, but even the way that I look at singles in my life and how do I honor what the Lord is doing in them and that beautiful picture. And maybe you want to go into that a little bit too, because I think it's helpful for us to recognize the two different pictures of how does singleness and celibacy represent the gospel. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:35

And how does marriage yeah, and I th yeah, this is some of my some of my favorite stuff because if we had like I a question I like to ask is like, well, what if we get this wrong? What if we get our understanding of human sexuality wrong? Well, what happens, or I think there's probably several things that happen, but one of the main things that I've seen happen is that we actually have created idols of marriage and we've created idols of relationship and we've created idols of sex, meaning that we've made um sex marriage, uh, relationships like the end all, be all life experience. Like you, like if you get married, you have arrived relationally. You have like it, we we put it in the realm of success, like we're successful at relationship if we get married. Um, we we think of like sex has become such an idol in our lives, like it's something that we think as humans we're entitled to. Um sex is not an entitlement, like sex is not water and food. Um I I as as a single celibate person, I can live a very full, flourishing life without sex. Um, sexual intimacy. I cannot live without intimacy, right? And so um and so and I think even understanding, I think we need to grow in our understanding of intimacy, what intimacy is, uh what like what the levels of intimacy, layers of intimacy, that like the different kinds of intimacy. Um I I have a very full, I don't have I I'm not married, I don't participate in in sex. I have so that I don't have that form of intimacy, but I have a very robust friendship uh community uh in Montana. I have a really awesome family back in Washington. So I have other forms of intimacy that um help me have a full and flourishing relational life. And I think I think with that, like we have to bring a balance back of like, okay, we've made an idol out of sexual intimacy uh and marriage intimacy, but those are two different kinds there's a two there's they're brands of intimacy, yes. But we're not all going to get every form of intimacy. We I I was just talking to Lindsay about this this morning. We're not all guaranteed every form of intimacy in our life journey, right? Um you that's Lindsay quote. Lindsay Shout out Lindsay as well. Yeah. So but like so like for me as a single person, like, and even like me grow like with have navigating an attraction to the same sex for the last couple decades, um, trying to pray away the gay and the gay stayed, as I like to say, like it hasn't like I've had to figure out how do I reconcile this with my relationship with God. I had a I had to in a part of my process of of lur uh of growing of part of my process of of my own experience of like same-sex attraction, marriage, relationship. I had a massive idol of of marriage in my life. I thought marriage was actually going to fix my same-sex attractiveness. I thought it was going to fix my brand of sexual immorality. Wow. Um, because that is, I think, a subtle messaging system that we can get in the church that, like, oh, just get married and it will fix you. Um, like it will just get married and it will dot dot whatever. You won't experience loneliness ever again. Get married and and then and um and the the reality is that like the marriage you're whoever you're married to or the the marriage partner, and and you guys can speak this morning, that person was never meant to fulfill everything, every relational need you have. No. Um, I know a lot of married people that still experience loneliness. Um uh even sexual intimacy, like like it's like we we we spend, we talked about this yesterday too. We've had some we've had we've had some fun conversations.

SPEAKER_04 13:19

Like human beings spend what 23 hours thinking about thinking about working out, getting their get like uh flirting with a girl or guy, like if you're younger, you use Tinder and Bumble, like you, you obsess and you think all day for 15 minutes of fun. Yeah. If that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:37

Yeah, exactly. If that. And so like, but but like talk about an idol, like right? Like talk about like that's what worship is. Yeah, you know, like it's so yeah, I mean I don't know what direction to go. No, there's just so many what directions I could go.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

Give me a what has been the picture of the gospel that you have held on to that has been kind of right. What has spoken meaning to your singleness?

SPEAKER_02 14:03

Yeah, so our calling, whether to marriage or to singleness, and I believe it's a calling. I believe God uh calls us into marriage or calls us into singleness. And I I believe that calling tells a story. Um, the story is not my relationship status, or the story is not about SJ. The story is actually about Jesus uh and his gospel. And so marriage is a metaphor, and Paul says this marriage is a metaphor for Christ in the church. Uh, and there's lots of really awesome books that you can you can read about it that capture this messaging system. There's, you know, uh I'll I'll put Lori Krieg has her awesome book, Impossible Marriage, um, and she captures that metaphor really beautifully. Uh and and so that's the here and now, Christ in the church. Like, if we want to know what Christ, what it looks like for Christ loving us, like we should look at marriages. Um, when we see a husband and wife pursuing one another, being patient with one another, um, being in that covenant relationship with one another, being faithful to one another. Like these are practical everyday things. We look at marriage and we're like, Christ in the church. That's that's Christ loving the church. And and you could go on for hours that. Well, singleness, okay. Well, then what about singles? Um, and and and what about it? Well, well, singleness tells a story too. Um it's it's a it's it's about the eternal life. So my my life tells a story of when, because it's still that we have we have earthly marriage, metaphor of Christ in the church. Well, it's all pointing to something, and that's the ultimate marriage that's in Revelation 19, where the there's a marriage, there's going to be a wedding that takes place, a wedding supper, and it's when we're all single as the church, as the body of Christ, and then we get married to Christ for eternity. So in heaven, um, we're all single, none of us are married. Um, we're married to Christ. And so my like so when you see someone like me, a single person, um, and even like married people are part of it because how how Katie and I interact, like when you see single people interacting with each other, you actually get a picture of eternal life. Um, you get a picture of where all of this is going, and all of this, like, because Christ is the ultimate goal for this, for this life. And and there like marriage is not my ultimate goal, uh, sex is not my ultimate goal, like um like Christ is. Um, and if we like everything I've learned about human sexuality, everything I've learned about marriage, the body, sex, singleness, all of it is pointing to a person and a story, and the person is Christ. Um, and the the story is God's radical love for his people. Um, and I think that's something too that like, man, I wish people knew or could comprehend just how radically they are loved by God. I think like it is, and because like that's what the like the Bible is just one giant, and I know this is cheesy and it's like Christian ease, whatever you want, but it's it is a giant love story. It begins with a marriage, it ends with a marriage, and everything in between is just the story of God pursuing his people. Yeah. Um, but then the another piece I put to that is that like, and this is for my friend Mark, is that like it's not just God choosing his people or choosing me and you, and we're not the main characters, God is the main character, that's whatever. It's it's choosing us, but then forsaking all others, right? So like he chose Israel and he forsakes so like he God is committed to us more than we're committed to him, yeah, right? And and that goes for every human being that's in existence. Uh God is God's love for us. Um, and and another part of my story too that helps me with this is if marriage is the greatest form of love, why didn't Jesus say that? Why didn't Jesus get married? And why did Jesus say in in John, no greater love is this than someone who lays his life down for his friends? And so for me, a part of my story is that like as I've gotten um, I think come to grips is such a hard whatever, as I've rested in my singleness, as I've like learned the purpose and vision that God has for my singleness and celibacy. Uh like people are like, Don't you want to get married, or whatever? And I'm like, I go, I actually no, I'm I'm I'm pretty good, like and it's like I it's kind of counter, I'm pretty good. Like, like, like, and there's reasons for that, and we that's probably maybe didn't start there. No, I did not start there. I could but it but I I didn't start there because I had a massive idolatry of marriage. Like I like and and I was not content. I had to sort through all of that, and I and I and and I had to come to the conclusion that either Jesus is enough or he's not. Either, either, either he's what he says in the Gospel of John, I'm the greatest love, no greater love than this. Either he is the greatest love or he's a liar. Um I don't subscribe that Jesus is a liar. Like I think that he's he means what he says and he says what he means, and I have found the greatest love even as a single person. Yeah, and his name is Jesus. And like, but like even married people like that, your whole marriage is it's it's the same thing. Like you're your your marriage is a signpost pointing to the love of Christ, right? Like, and so for me, and singleness is is a signpost pointing to where we're all married to Christ. Like it's just all of that at the end of the day, all back in the ancient, there was a there's a term that said like all roads lead to Rome, right? Like whatever. Now it's not all universalism, like, but like all like like all marriage, like it's meant to show us who Christ is. Sorry, I'm gonna get started throwing mics around a little bit. But but it's just like we've we're we're missing this in the church.

SPEAKER_04 19:41

All the physical things, all of these, the things that you just said, sex, marriage, what was the framework again?

SPEAKER_02 19:47

Uh theology of the body, body, marriage, sex, and singleness.

SPEAKER_04 19:51

All of those are signposts that point us to Jesus. No matter how uncomfortable that actually makes us, especially the the idea of sex pointing to to to God and union between God and and and his church, and um the that those things are are really important. And I think it's good for us as believers to like people who we interact with who are let's just say single and married. Um I think one of the things that we've done anecdotally, what I've seen is we've looked at somebody who is single and gone, oh, can we just find somebody for them? Like they must be so sad and lonely. And then the narrative for somebody who maybe is called to being single is now having a false narrative of nobody uh loves me and I'm supposed to be lonely, but maybe God has called them to celibacy and to not be married, and we've made it not a good or normal or positive thing when really it is a beautiful thing. It's it's we talked about this a little bit recently, it's calling and what God has called you to. And so as a church, as as believers, as pastors, we actually should really start changing our our language. And even like um, I had mentioned this to my my youth staff. Um, I try not to say like having kids and being married is the pinnacle of life, or even when I'm sharing those things, um, those are for me and my experience are like the great the greatest day ever was when I became a husband and when I became a dad. And uh my wife is pregnant with our second, like that'll be the third greatest day, but that's for my experience. I will not experience what other people will experience in their lifetime, and and that's okay. But at the end of the day, the greatest experience of all the pinnacle of life is Jesus and having a relationship um with him, and so um I I love that. I think the the idolatry. Of marriage is a is a really important thing, and I think it's even hurt some people who are who are married currently because of the weight. Matt Chandler says that our our wives and our husbands make really crappy gods.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

Yes, that's true.

SPEAKER_04 22:15

And so do our kids. Yeah. Yeah. And like you when you when you have this view of Christian sexuality um put together, like, and I would love for you both to to comment on this, like, what can come of that? What what is some fruit like if we like start to see these frameworks as like the lens in which we look at Christian sexuality? What can what can start to happen in a church, in relationships, in friendships? Like when we have a healthy perspective. When we have a healthy, like give us give us a vision of of what healthy sexuality could look like in a church, in friendships, in marriage, and like having that framework.

SPEAKER_02 22:59

Yeah. Um man, there's there's so many things. I think for for me, um, we help people like I think there there's a realignment of focusing on Jesus that can happen with that. Like we we I like we don't get kind of caught up with like worldly things in a sense. Like that's cheesy, but like um for me, I I've noticed that like okay, if this is a true and genuine calling, for me, like like my I've noticed a f a few, and I can speak for myself, but like a few outcomes that have come that like my trust in the Lord has actually grown. Like, like, and and that was unexpected. Like, I I trust him with with my calling. Um, contentment, like I I I have a contentment in the Lord of like I'm not thinking of like, oh maybe this is the person or that's the person. Like, like my life, like I have there's a contentment um that I've experienced of with that. Um and I think that like that can kind of fall into all things. If we're if we're pursuing, like even with like, I mean, you can talk about the money thing too, greed and the love of money. And like if we have an idol of money, like we're not like content, we are never content. Never, we're never content. And if I have an idol of sex or fulfilling my self-pleasure or whatever, like I'm like, like sin is a monster and it's hungry and it's going to keep devouring you. And um, and so like I as I've rested in the verse that there's no greater love, like, like I will say that like I there is a rest that I've experienced that that can only come from the presence of God, you know. Like, so so I'd say like personally, those are some of the outcomes that I've experienced.

SPEAKER_01 24:45

I think for me, it has changed the way that I want to function in my relationships, as far as am I looking towards what I need and what I want and having that fulfilled, or am I actually saying, Lord, if this, if my marriage is meant to be a picture of the gospel, how am I living that out today? How am I responding to my husband? How am I, you know, thinking about him? How am I it just it changes a lot? I think when we take our focus off of what we feel like we are lacking and what we wish that this was fulfilling and recognizing that actually Jesus was created to be the only one that met those needs. So now how do I, with Jesus meeting my needs, how can I go be a picture of Jesus to these people? How can I be a picture of Jesus to my friends? How can I be a picture of Jesus to the single people in my life? How can I be a picture of Jesus to my kids, to my husband? Um we start looking at our lives actually through that gospel picture of how am I portraying him as an image bearer that in in all relationships I have the ability to even be a picture of of Jesus. And it really it takes the the focus off of ourselves. And I think even when it comes to our um our sexual brokenness, that sexual brokenness I think stems from selfishness, you know, in in ways where it's like we obviously there's so many layers to that, but I think we are trying to meet a need, right? We're trying to take. And and really Jesus' picture for us is that we can take from him because he's the only person that provides anything that is beneficial for us. And out of that, when we gain what we need from him, we actually have the ability to give. And we no longer have to take in our relationships. We actually can be selfless even when those needs are not being met, even when we feel lonely in our marriages. Um and I think it it really changes our perspective of commitment and all of these things. I when I look at the picture of what Jesus is trying to show us, that covenantal relationship with us, I recognize wow, what does it mean now for me to show that same kind of commitment to the people around me, especially my marriage, because my marriage is the covenantal relationship.

SPEAKER_03 27:39

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

Um and and I just I think that we've lost sight of that a little bit. Wow.

SPEAKER_04 27:46

Yeah, that's so good. Yeah, I I've found in my walk with Jesus when and and Jesus models this for us. Um, where does he get his love and satisfaction identity from? From the Father. Yeah. We find him going to the Father to find his identity. And I I've said this before about Jesus, is he's the one that is so secure in his identity, he doesn't need our approval. Um and when it comes to sex, um that is that is a and I would love for you guys in a moment to talk about desires. Yeah. Um but when we desire this, it's it's we're filling a hole within the heart and our in our desires. Um and when we go to Jesus, he meets those needs, even if those physical things are not met. Um, but we are rooted in our identity. And we have an and and when we're rooted in our identity, we can be confident in giving and loving. And when it comes to sex, um, we don't have to go to pornography. We don't have to um, you know, have a fight with our spouse, which is an a normal thing. Like that is something like top-rated fights is uh is about money and sex. And it's funny the Bible talks about money and sex a lot, doesn't it? Um, but to have a healthy um sexual relationship, whether you are celibate or married or dating, you know, and you're engaged, it is to find your satisfaction in the bread of life. Jesus says, I am the bread of life, and we are supposed to get our satisfaction from him. And so um, like this is like for everything else in life, right? Um, but yeah, I would love for you, you you guys have this um this idea, this this teaching around, and we'll we'll end with this, but desires. Can you speak? You have an interesting conversation because because one of the things um I think people struggle with is uh whether it's same-sex attraction, whether it's um a pornography addiction, um, or just you're a teenager and you're going through hormones and you're like, I have these feelings. Yep. Are they bad? Is it terrible? I look at somebody who I'm attracted to and I have feelings. Why is that? Is this gross? Is this dirty? Like, can you yeah, speak on that uh as we as we wrap up this video?

SPEAKER_02 30:18

Yeah, we're vibing because I was actually having the same idea. Like, so I think I think in in Christianity and in the church, we actually have a misunderstanding of of desire. We have a misunderstanding and especially sexual desire. Um and I I'm a person that like I've grown to kind of use, I'll put desire, attraction, wants, um, there's other, and they're they're all they're different, they they they're yes, they're different words, they can mean different things, but they all kind of captivate the same thing. Like I think human beings are are creatures that want stuff. Craving, I think, is whatever we have cravings, um, which lead to wants and and stuff like that. So I think, and I do think like it's it's our desires, our wants, our attractions, our cravings that are that motivate behavior. And and so, and I think even in James, I can't remember exactly what the scripture is, but in James, it says that you you you sin because you have evil desires, your evil desires lead you to temptation, and temptation gives birth to sin. And so, even scripturally, there seems to be like this process of that gets us to sin um that starts with desire. And so for me, like I think like I have, and and and again, like I mean, there's always people that disagree with me on this and or and agree with me on this, so like it's both and but like I think that um is in in regards to my my my experience of same-sex attraction, I don't think that attraction is this is is the itself a sin. I think it's complex. I think attraction in general is complex. Now, do I think I have to walk in self-control with it? Absolutely, like we all do. Um, I love the quote from Jackie Hilperry. She says, hetero heterosexuality is not um a fruit of the spirit, but self-control is. Uh that I have like I that is locked in my brain. I'm so grateful for Jackie Hilperry and just the work that she does. And um, but but so for for for me, what I what I try to tell people would be like, okay, like you actually have to start um with your desires. Like for one thing that a practice that's super important for me is like I need to make sure or cultivate a desire for the Lord that's stronger than a desire for the thing for for sin or for things that are not. And and how like, how do I know if this is a God-honoring desire or an evil desire? How do I know if I'm desiring God above all else, right? Like, well, I use the scripture to help me sift through that stuff, right? This the scripture's very clear again on black and white, on what is what is fallen. Man, like Paul has awesome lists in there. He's like, this is the fruit of the flesh, right? This is the fruit of the spirit. Like, so I think the Bible is really clear on that. So I have I have to do the work in myself and surround myself with people who are in the same framework of like, hey, like, is that a healthy desire? Yeah. Um, and and another, and with the desire thing, specifically sexual desire. Sexual desire is something that needs to be navigated, managed, and exercising self-control. Yes, 100%. But I always like I I I've grown to understand like sexual desire, like if it's from God, um, because I wrestled with this question, like I was reading a lot of statistics on pornography, sex trafficking, one day, like it's it's kind of a part of what I do. Like, yeah, you just have to be informed, right? And so you read a lot of stats and you read a lot of really depressing stats. And and I was really wrestling with a question, like, God, why did you make us a sexual be? Like, why did you give us sexual desires? Why are why are we sex why are why do we have desire? Why like that seems like these sexual desires lead us nowhere good? That's what I was very discouraged. And I was and I was and I was and I think I was actually experiencing some anger towards God. Yeah. Like, hey, like you did this, like this was your plan and your purpose, and and and why, like, and and and our fallen sexual desires are because we live in a Genesis 3 world. And and there's some questions that can come up with that. Like, God kind of responded with a question. Oftentimes he'll respond with a question with me. And one of the things he's like, well, what do you lose if you completely take away desire, like or sexual desire? Like, like what do you lose as humanity? And and because desire is a motivating thing, like, like he we would lose like passion. Like, I think passion can kind of be part of this conversation too. Like, like passionate thing things happen out of passion. It motivates behavior. People have done really terrible things and really beautiful things because they were passionate and they desired something. Yep. Um, and we can find we can look through human history of like it wasn't uh it was their passions and their their their their desires and all that kind of stuff that motivated them to whatever. And and I think sexual desire specifically, um, and this is a lot of like theology that like theology of the body stuff, like sexual desires specifically um are meant to, again, it's a picture of God's trying to tell us something. He's trying to communicate something to us. Um He He knows that we're dense. Uh, he it took, I mean, we are dense people that we take a long time to learn something, and he loved and God loves to some to give physical representations of supernatural realities. The Eucharist, the Lord's Supper is one of it. But um, and and I think I think we can I think I'd put this in that conversation of like our sexual desire is to communicate a sp like a spiritual or supernatural reality. And like if we because I like how do I understand that God radically loves me and pursues me? What helps me understand pursuit? What helps me understand I'm craving something? Yep. So I'm willing to drive down to a gas station to get a chocolate bar. Like, like I I want something. And like, so what helps us kind of capture that? And it goes back to, I think, I don't know, when we talked about it, but it's like people spend 23 hours, 20 or 23 hours and 23 and a half hours talking, thinking about sex and like that that third thir 13 minutes, 15, what uh, 15 minutes of pleasure. Like, imagine if we used that desire and pointed it towards the gourd. Like, because like like it's all pushing us somewhere. Like we're all, it's it's motivating us to do, it's motivating us to go to the gym, it's motivating us to pursue like to flirt, it's motivating us to pursue the relationship. And it's all like whatever. So now I think I think that's a tangible reality of like, like, okay, if I can put that in the context of God's pursuit of me, and if I can then take my the when I experience desire, um, and because even like like I think even going down, I think loneliness can be a part of the conversation, like a craving for intimacy. Our I believe our sexual desire, our everything, like it is it is is it is a a call or a cry for intimacy. Yeah. And we will go we will fill that intimacy with unhealthy things and simple things, or we can fill it with a thing that can actually satisfy it.

SPEAKER_04 37:00

And we can now, uh, especially when it comes to sexual desires, with the axis of pornography, you can access um I heard I heard there's a statistic on Gen Z um and Gen Alpha that actually premarital sex is down because of porn. Yeah. Because they don't have to go face to face with somebody. So the desire is driving to this easy action.

SPEAKER_02 37:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:25

Um, which is which is it's it's terrifying. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 37:28

It's it's wildly terrifying.

SPEAKER_04 37:30

That's why we need the right theology of desire of the body and why why God designed us to be this way.

SPEAKER_02 37:38

And so your desire, and so to like to to uh uh you you're you're in youth ministry, you have a lot of teenage boys that are feeling some type of way about a lot of different things. You can now have a story to communicate that your desires are not bad, they're meant, they're pointing you towards intimacy. You want intimacy. How like let's let's put G that that's that's that that's to have the goal of that into that that desire be Jesus. Yes. Because he's the ultimate fulfillment of all forms of intimacy, he's the end goal. And so, so that's like and Julie Slatterly does incredible work. She raised three teenage boys, and she would say this to them. She's like, You're you're what you're experiencing, you have a desire or a pull that's communicating to you that you were created for intimacy. Yeah. And and and so then how like the world says or sin has caused us to say sexual desire is dirty, it's bad, it's gross. No. Like if we can if we can capture the narrative and say, no, like your intimate your your sexual desire is a cry for intimacy, and it's a cry for intimacy with someone that can know you the best, and that's the Lord first, and then your marriage like is meant to reflect that. Like, and and for for me, I have to cultivate behaviors of celibacy. So like I have like I have to go to the Lord with with my sexual desires, like I don't have an option. Yeah, um, and so like so I have to find a way to cultivate that 23 and a half hours throughout the day. Like when when those sexual desires come up, I have to cultivate that towards the Lord. Uh, and and that's where spiritual disciplines come in, and that's where self-control comes in and fruit of the spirit. I guess I can't do it alone either. I need the Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_04 39:04

Yeah, totally. Yeah, that's so good. So good. Yeah, I uh this is a great conversation. Um, and I think it's gonna be super, super helpful. And I hope um my my prayer and my hope is that um the church can start talking about this stuff, that we can have a right framework on talking about this stuff, that parents aren't afraid to talk to their teenagers about this, that uh spouses can talk about this, we can talk openly in our small groups about sex and it's not um this this terrible dirty thing. And and I think what this uh conversation can do, what I hope that you you leave here with is um that when Jesus shines his light on this, he can actually redeem it, he can actually bring beauty to it. His God, his word talks about this, and so um I pray that the Holy Spirit does that in and through everybody watching. So thank you guys so much for checking out this episode. And don't forget to subscribe for more episodes, but we'll see you at the next one. Thanks everyone. We could have kept going, but uh we're we're we're cooking in the Thanks for tuning in to the Pursue Reality Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 40:15

Reality Church is a local church in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. To learn more or get connected, visit us at pursue reality.org.