The Gift of Being Trusted | Sally Jo 7 Katie | Pursue Reality #68

In this episode of the Pursue Reality Podcast, Lindsay sits down with Sally Jo and Katie for an honest conversation about friendship, vulnerability, sexuality, and following Jesus with truth and grace.

Sally Jo shares what it was like to open up about her experience with same-sex attraction, and Katie reflects on how to respond as a friend without fear, pressure, or trying to “fix” someone. Together, they talk about the gift of being trusted with someone’s story, the importance of prayer, the role of the Holy Spirit, and what it looks like to point people to Jesus while loving them well.

This conversation is for anyone who wants to be a better friend, navigate hard conversations with wisdom, and grow in a deeper, more honest community. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:10

You're listening to the Pursue Reality Podcast from Reality Church. Each episode is a conversation about what it means to be real people and pursuing a better reality in Jesus.

SPEAKER_03 0:40

Hey everyone, welcome to the Pursue Reality Podcast. It is good to have you here. My name is Lindsay, and I'm one of the pastors here at Reality Church, and we're in a really special series talking about sexuality, gender, uh talking about friendship and relationships and all the things that we all wonder about, but maybe don't have open conversations about. And I have back with us some special friends of Reality Church. So we have Sally Joe. It's good to have you back on another episode. And we're gonna call you SJ on this on this uh episode. And then another special friend of ours, Katie. It's really good to have you here. Thanks for joining us. And in this conversation, we are wanting to get um not just honest, but actually vulnerable. And I'm just so thankful that you guys are willing to just talk openly. You guys have been friends for how many years? 17. 17 years. Okay. So you've been friends for 17 years. And yeah, I think one of the things that in that we all kind of worry about and wonder about, whether you're a Christian following Jesus or even not, is how to not just navigate what do I believe and how do I talk to people, but actually those conversations with people we love, when they tell us, maybe for the first time in their life, um, that this is part of their own story. Um, whether it's gender issues or sexuality issues, saying that, hey, I think normally people don't come out and say, I'm heterosexual. I need to inform you of that. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, but being on the receiving end of that and on the telling end of that to say, hey, um, there's something you don't know about me and my sexual desires and how I experience life. And I think a lot of us, especially as followers of Jesus, we want to get those conversations right. Yeah. And we want to love people well, but we often feel like we often don't. And so I um I'm just thankful that you guys are actually willing to talk about your guys' story about how that went for you and how that has gone through the years. So I think we could just jump right into it. Yeah. Um, SJ, you Katie was one of or the one of the first people, yeah. That you told that you were same-sex attracted or gay or whatever label. Yep. I don't know what label you were using for at the time. Yeah, I don't know if I know what label is.

SPEAKER_02 3:16

I don't know if I had a label. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:18

So tell us about that. Maybe even start a little bit with like how did that feel leading up to the conversation? Why Katie? Yeah. Why there's probably a lot of people you could have told. Why did you go to her and what was that experience like if you guys could jump in there? Sure.

SPEAKER_02 3:34

So and this is just good for anyone to know, like, if if someone that is navigating a like an LGBTQ journey of any kind, like coming out story, is like one of a very pivotal moment, uh stepping stone. And um, and I don't know, like, so for for me, my journey of navigating um my same-sex attraction and the experience I was having is a is a is like like the there's like waves of it. I I it's hard to like because I grew up in a in an environment that was like very conservative, very unhealthy. I had some pretty wrong belief systems um in the sense of some some of the messaging I got throughout my teenage years, years was uh gay people go to hell. You know, that was like like there's there's all that we didn't talk about sex was just a very interesting thing. And so um, so I had, I would say I had uh, I didn't have language for it. I my growth and journey and and figuring out my how to navigate my attractions and that kind of stuff is a little bit of a process. So I'll give it an honorable mention though. So the first person I ever came out to was my friend Grace, and I I was 22 years old, and that was actually the first time I ever kind of recognized or even admitted to myself that this could be this was something. Um now after, and I couldn't even I couldn't actually finish my sentence. She finished the sentence for me. Um I just and I and I remember we were renting a house at the same time, we were actually sharing a room at the same time. Um I had no Grace and I had a platonic relationship, uh very good friends, and I remember saying, I I I was sitting with her and I was like, I think I'm or I'm worried that I'm I can't remember the exact she probably remembers better than I do, but I'm worried that I'm and I stopped talking. And she's like, Are you worried that you're gay? And like, and I and so that was like, and I'm like, yep, but then I but then I didn't revisit it, and then that actually kind of I went my my twenties. I just that was the extent of that conversation. That was the extent of that conversation. Um, and and I just kind of moved on, and Grace didn't leave, she didn't abandon me, she stuck by me. And I actually, after that moment, I kind of indulged quite quickly into a lot of different things. Um, one of them being like experience, like um experimenting with my sexuality. I was in Seattle, uh going to school in Seattle at the time, and I had a lot of people telling me, like, well, you're gay, so go relationship, whatever. So I had a lot of people telling me what to do. So I was so I was very careless, and and so that was that. But now coming when I returned to the Lord, I did my discipleship training school in South America, and I had actually before going on that, I had had a very, very, I had kind of with like the experimental stuff, I had entered into a very, very um toxic, abusive, um, I don't even know if you can call it a relationship with with a woman. And um I don't I don't think I would call it a relationship. Um and it was and I had a couple a few of those, but this one was like by far like the worst. Really toxic. Really, really healthy. Yeah, very unhealthy. Um a lot of damage was caused. Um, yeah, and that's just a story for another day. But so I knew I had this experience, and I and and I knew I had a same-sex attraction. And so then I and but I entered into a Christian environment with this for the first time, and and my experience with Christian environments was was gay people go to hell. I didn't know at this time if I could even be have a same-sex attraction and and be a Christian. Like that was a real wrestle that I had for a long time. Um did six-month DTS in South America, um, came back um to why uh to Montana while Montana did the school biblical studies. Yeah, yeah, youth of mission, Montana, and um met Katie, and we and and we were talking about this last night. Like we're just like trying to like 17 years is a long time, right? So we were just like like I was actually trying to remember it. And and I remember when I entered into SBS, I was like obviously, yeah. Yeah, uh, I was so done with relationships. Like I was like, obviously, I don't know how to have friendships. Obviously, this like all relationships. All relationships. So I was like, I was like, it's I it's just gonna be me and God, me and the Bible. That's all I'm gonna work on. So I actually was because I every relationship I had had with a female up to that point was unhealthy. Yeah. Um, I had been in this pattern. Um, a lot of that is because for for there's a lot of things feed into my attractions played a role. I don't think they're the dominant role, but they did play a role. And so, but I was just done. Like I clearly, and I because of like what had been communicated, what I thought is that like I'm broken, I'm incapable of relationship. I and I am especially incapable of having uh a relationship with with females, and so that was kind of the mentality that I had. And like I'm just I I don't think I can do this. So I just kind of tried to keep to myself. I'm an extrovert, that doesn't always go super well. Um, but then Katie and I like started to just we were in the same school, like we're in this program, and in YWM it's a live-learned environment. So you're in the dorm, you're going to class, you're eating meals together, so you're around each other a lot. So it's a little, it's like it's very intensive. Um, and so Katie and I just got to know one another. Um, I got to know a few different people, um, and and hanging out and and a few things that I I recognize, I say, because I didn't I didn't come out to her until the end of the nine months like towards the end of the nine month school, my nine month program. But what I would say was so we had a lot of really good connection. I saw her as someone that cared about the Lord, cared about the Bible, cared about growing, um, had a level of maturity, and we actually just had a lot of fun together. Like I was just like, and so that started to make me like, okay, maybe I do want this thing called friendship. Like, like maybe I do need people in my life because it was very life-giving for me. Um, and but then like I think in the back of my head, I'm just like, oh, but like just wait until like whatever, because we just had a great time. Like, I just think the oh the like we've had a I mean it's been an awesome 17 years, and I think we've just really enjoyed friendship with one another. Um, but I'm just like, okay, I think it's if this friendship is going to continue to be a friendship, I have to start letting people in. I and me I have to start letting her in. And there's there's a there's kind of a for me, my mentality with that, like I have a twofold mentality. One is not healthy because it's like, okay, I'm gonna say this this thing to her to see if she can handle it. Yeah. So it's like it's not necessarily the healthiest version of vulnerability, yeah. But it's like, okay, let's see how she handles this. But the other side is that like I was really starved for intimacy, yeah. And and a path to intimacy is vulnerability. Like it's like okay, like how what does authentic relationship look like? And I knew I'm just like, I think, and I um also was like, okay, God, if you want me to have friends, you're gonna need to bring them. And so I had like a kind of an understanding. I'd been praying, like, okay, God, if you want friends, I I don't remember where and during my Bible school I started praying for that, but I've been like, okay, I think friendship is a thing. I think relationships are a thing. Um, and if you want me to have that, I'm you're gonna need to send people because I'm not gonna go looking for it. Um, and so there's always I f we always we have felt like like there's always been kind of a hand on our relationship and a God's hand on our relationship. And so it was sometime in the spring in Montana. I think we were just coming back from hanging out somewhere. Yeah. And there's not a lot of privacy at a YWM campus, like it was whatever. And so, and so we were sitting in the parking lot in our car, and we just kind of started to open, have a moment of like vulnerability. Um, and it was at that time I I shared that I was same-sex attracted. I don't know, I don't know. Do you know the language?

SPEAKER_01 11:32

I think you were you were talking a little bit about your past and the things that you had experimented with and just being honest with your story. Yeah. Just sharing part of your life with me.

SPEAKER_03 11:44

How how scared were you in that moment? I mean Or did you feel like no, I I think I can this feel safe to me.

SPEAKER_02 11:50

So I mean, I think there's a little bit of a tension there because I honestly I I for me when I have an intense emotional moment, yeah, I know it was intense because I don't remember it very well.

SPEAKER_03 12:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:01

Um and and so I blacked out. I blacked out. Um and I think I think that happened, and that was like the first time. Um, yeah. So like so I think I think the reality is that like I was really scared. Yeah. Um, but I think I knew there was something in me that wanted to share.

SPEAKER_04 12:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:19

Um, and so and I probably use the term uh I I'm attracted to females. I I have that's been my experience. And um, and do you want to want me to say what you told me in that moment, or do you want to say yeah. So so what made that moment actually special, because I haven't actually forgotten, like I may have forgotten like used or whatever, but but I remember her response to me because like when you when a person comes out or when I said I'm same-sex attracted or I'm attracted to the same sex, like you expect pushback, or you expect, oh my god. Like you see, like there's a lot of things I expected to hear. Um, and for me, I think I saw this as like this is either going to make or break our friendship. Either you're gonna be able to handle this or you're not. And I needed to know in that moment if she could handle it. So there's like a kind of a two-side of a coin there. But she's like, just so you know, I don't see your brokenness any different than mine. That was the first thing she said to me after that. And because like she was also like in this vulnerable moment, she was also sharing some things that she had been coming out of and some of her story uh and stuff like that. And I had never heard that phrase before ever. I had assumed that all Christians were like, you need to figure this out, you're going to hell, like this is whatever. And to hear a Christian say, I don't see your broke, hear a Christian say, I don't see your brokenness any different than your sexual brokenness, specifically sexual brokenness, your sexual brokenness any different than my own. Um, after she just told me.

SPEAKER_03 13:40

So that was like something that was how was that for you, Katie, in that moment? Tell us like she's sharing this with you. Um, I'm not Were you surprised? Were you like um was were you nervous about it internally?

SPEAKER_01 13:57

I I honestly don't think that I was nervous about it. I don't know that I was that surprised either. Um I I think I had walked enough with other people at times too in my life at that point that they're I think they're and even recognized in myself that there's not a lot that was going to be shocking when it comes to our brokenness because I know how deep it goes in my life and I know how deep it can go for other people. So um, but I really I think for me it was I felt almost honored to be let into that and to be trusted enough with something that is so scary to tell someone. And so I think I felt probably in that moment just that desire to be careful with her and her heart in it, and really just share the the kindness of the Lord, I guess, in a way that I would want it to be shared with me. And it's not like all of that was really conscious. I think it was just like split second moments where it's like, wow, what what a privilege to be allowed into this with her.

SPEAKER_03 15:22

And I think that is a beautiful perspective because often we frame this, um, we don't frame it in the context of this is a relational moment. We frame it like this is a theological moment or a Bible moment, but it actually is a beautiful thing. Like I'm it's like you're being given a gift and you sincerely felt that because you guys are friends. She's not a stranger to you. And I think if someone comes out to you, you can most of the time, not always, but I would say most of the time, you could assume there's something about you they trust or they feel safe with that they would do that. And you don't have to be like, you know, why are well there's a reason, and that's a beautiful gift. Like it felt like a moment of like we're strengthening our friendship. We are going to a deeper place here. And that's what's happening here. Yeah, it's not I'm now the teacher with a student.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

I never felt that.

SPEAKER_03 16:18

Never felt that. You never had that. Like, did you ever feel like, okay, I've got to give her the right answers?

SPEAKER_01 16:23

No, I think I think because we we had had a friendship. I think there were times where I wanted to navigate our relationship in a healthy way. And I think a question that maybe I was asking internally, even just of the Lord, is Lord help me to know how how to be a friend, how to be a good friend, and honestly to not get weird about it. Yeah, you know, because I think I had also seen where people can get weird when you you know, you see things in people's lives that you're trying to be friends and you want to change a traject trajectory of someone. But I I don't think I even I didn't feel like her trajectory needed to be changed because she was already on such a good trajectory.

SPEAKER_03 17:15

Yeah, she was pursuing Jesus, she's pursuing Jesus, she's sharing these things.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

I had things in my past too that I was learning to let the Lord sanctify and change, and so it was like, okay, yeah, we're just doing this together. Let's be friends and figure it out.

SPEAKER_03 17:30

Okay, so I want to highlight that too. That is such a beautiful prayer. Um I think when I talk to people, and a lot of people do come to me at times like, what do I say? What do I tell them? You know, God, show me what to do. And you were just like, God, how do I be a good friend? That's a beautiful framing. And I feel like it just kind of like okay, yeah, just decreases. Like all of us can do that. Yep. And all of us can hear from the Holy Spirit how to be a good friend and whatever that looks like in that moment. Um, what in the days and weeks and months after do you feel? How was that? Anything there that she did or you did, did you guys like, did it go? Because when you first told someone with Grace, your friend Grace, which sounds like she just stayed with you, but you guys never talked about it again. No, we talk about it now for sure. Yeah, yeah. But um so did you like pursue it or bring it up or say, like, hey, let's I want to talk about it again, or how did or did it go into the void and then three years later?

SPEAKER_01 18:41

I'm trying to remember. I think there were times there may have been a time where I asked you questions about, hey, is there anything that can be difficult for you at times? And I wasn't really asking, like, I think sometimes we we tend to get weird and we're like, are you attracted to me? Like, but it that I don't even think ever came up. It was just like, are there things that are difficult in our friendship with your navigation of this at times? I think you were very honest about any of those things. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 19:15

Yeah, I mean, there's always gonna like whenever you're vulnerable, that was a very vulnerable moment. Like there was, I think you have to navigate what I call the vulnerability hangover.

SPEAKER_03 19:24

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:25

Um, and so like just moving forward. And so we just kind of like I need after like I and I've learned that like after a moment of vulnerability, I just need some normalization or whatever. Like, I don't need the intense talks, whatever. And I don't and I I agree, like we just don't text me three times. How are you doing now? Yeah, yeah. Like I I don't need that, but I just need like good hang sesh. Like, you know, like it's like so we just continu we basically just continued friendship. Like there wasn't like a weird equation or thing to it. And and as but as we got comfortable asking questions, I think it wasn't like it wasn't even just one conversation where she had that. Like she like it was a kind of a progressive thing. And and and I'll be honest, like I I was on a journey too of trying to figure it out. I had no, I didn't have in like this is I mean, right now this it's it's a very common thing to come out, LGBT, and and there's all kinds of resources, there's all kinds of like books written on the thing of like how to do this and how to and and I was actually on a journey myself of like, what does this mean? What does this mean for me? What does it mean for my relationship with the Lord? And our friendship was just very it didn't center on that. Like it didn't center on my sexuality, it didn't center on e my issues or her issues, it centered on being friends, it centered on the Lord. Yeah, and healthy friendships don't center on our issues, no.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

No, because we weren't even trying to be accountability partners to each other. What we were trying to do is just live life together as we pursued Jesus. And then if there were things that I had questions about, I asked her about them. And and as you had different things, you would tell me about certain things too. But it was never one of those like we're not checking in with each other about these things. It was just friendship.

SPEAKER_03 21:02

It was pursuing the Lord. I I think that's good. Again, I'm pulling this out because I think some people they're like, okay, what's my plan? Yeah, what's the and it's again, it's just being friends to the person, being a good friend, letting things happen. Yeah. Um and I love too that I think it's so healthy. There was an equality in your sharing um that it was based in friendship. Yep. And it wasn't like SJ has the issues, and Katie's our angel. I was not. Take Katie. Take Katie. Um, so let me ask some questions a little because your story is unique. You were pursuing Jesus and you were wanting to know what Jesus said to you about this. Yep. That's not always true. No. Some people are coming out to us and telling us very vulnerably, but they don't know want to know what Jesus says, or maybe they believe Jesus is saying something that you're like, I definitely don't think Jesus is saying that.

SPEAKER_04 22:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:00

And let me just put that in the context of this could be LGBTQ issues, but this could also be pornography, um, all whatever your version of sexual brokenness is, right? Um how could you guys speak a little bit on how that would change the dynamic or how or do you think would it not?

SPEAKER_02 22:22

Like if somewhat like they they come out and they don't want what Jesus thinks, they don't really care what Yeah, or they think Jesus is like you know He's okay with it. He's okay with pretty much whatever. Yeah. Um Snarkly, I would say, well, what does the Bible say? Like you have to have like like we the person of Jesus, um he he's a person, but he also is truth. He's the word incarnate, and so we have to, as I think I think there is, I think the Bible is clear on sexual ethics. I think because that's at the end of the day the question that we're asking. It's like, what is God's heart plan and desire for my human sexuality? And I do think the Bible does have a lot, actually a lot to say about it. And I think the Bible is actually very black and white about it now. There are people that disagree with me, there are people that agree with me, you know. And so for me, like it's it's almost I I consider it a journey of like you have to actually help someone understand, okay, well, Jesus does have something to say about this. Yeah, what does he have to say? Let's go on that journey. And then I'd love to journey without yeah, I would like I would let like, hey, let's figure this out. I'll help I'll I'll I'll be your guide, I'll but I'll be your tour guide of those of the scriptures, right? Because we do actually have to help people understand that, like, no, there is truth. Yeah, um, we're meant to live our lives according to that truth. I believe as a Christian to have a Christian worldview. I know that there's maybe brands of Christianity out there that wouldn't say that, but I think traditional orthodox non-affirming historical Christianity is like we we have truth, his name is Jesus, and there's there is a way that we're meant to, there's a person that would be in there, there's a way to live. Um, and so you have but you have to help someone kind of come to the there is and and there's an authoritative nature, like like Jesus is not just uh a friend that laid down his life for us, he's also Lord. Yeah, um, the scriptures are authoritative, like so. There's just some like and it's so intertwined for me. So like I like you have to help people kind of understand, like, hey, where are you with that? Where are you where are you with the lordship of Jesus? Where are you with the authoritative nature of the scriptures? Um for me, I I was already kind of there. Um You were desiring. I was I was desiring, I knew that, and I I was I'm grateful for that that that conviction. I had a pretty I and I still do have a pretty strong conviction. And there are some days, I'll be honest, I wish I didn't have such a like there are some people that I'm like, okay, how do you not how do you go the world not have like these really strong convictions? So like you know, so it's so it's interesting.

SPEAKER_03 24:49

So you have to help you have to introduce people to so in those situations you would just offer the friendship in a different way. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

I think Yeah. I I'm thinking too, I think some of it has to do with how much do they want to personally welcoming that. Yeah, and and also I mean what are they okay with your friendship have holding different beliefs? You know, if you're gonna share your beliefs with me and you want a friendship with me, then I'm gonna say, are you okay with me sharing some of my beliefs with you? Yeah. And just even up front, I just want you to know like it doesn't mean that I don't want a relationship with you, but I do want you to know where I stand on this because that is gonna, I think, change the way that we navigate our friendship, the things that maybe you want to talk to me about, the things that you don't want to talk to me about. Yeah, I don't know. But I think even just having that candid conversation of even asking, like, what is your hope for friendship, your hope for relationship in this? I don't think that we need to be intimidated by people necessarily disagreeing with us. Yeah. And we don't I think it's really beneficial sometimes to have friends that are on, you know, a a variety of different paths, only because I think it helps our perspective and how we think about certain things. Now, I think your closest friends need to be those that are probably walking um the same direction and the same depth that you are with the Lord. But um, I think I think that there is a way to build trust with people and not worry too much about where they're at when they first say these things to you. Um, we can communicate what we believe about things and then really wrap that in, hey, that doesn't mean that we don't get to have relationship. I'd love to still pursue a friendship with you and let's just like let's look at Jesus together. Or, you know, or let's learn how to interact with each other and see what the Lord does, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:58

And it is that seeing what the Lord does, allowing ourselves to be friends to people and the Holy Spirit to be the Holy Spirit. It's I feel like we do get a little um in those personal moments, whether someone's like I mean, it's always vulnerable. Yep. Whatever the outcome they're envisioning for their life, we are not the Holy Spirit. Yep. And so that's always a relief for me. I think in my younger years, I was like kind of felt a little bit like I was junior Holy Spirit, like his special helper. Do you know what I mean? A lot of people that maybe have that. I definitely had that more. And I hurt people, yeah. Because I was his special little junior helper. And it's like, well, the Holy Spirit works, but I mean somebody's gotta say it out loud. And it's like when I realize no, Lindsay, you're not his special helper. Well, you're but you're called to be obedient. Right. And if I need to speak truth, I will. But yeah, it's not on me to convince, to cajole, to to change, to none of that's on me. Yeah, like how he's gonna work. Yeah, like how do I partner with him to be the best friend I can be to that person?

SPEAKER_01 28:12

And I think we're afraid of that because we feel like if we're not saying these things, then we're being passive.

SPEAKER_03 28:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

And and yet I feel like leaning in and really asking the Holy Spirit, what are you already up to?

SPEAKER_03 28:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:27

Is actually one of the things that we're gonna do. And how can I join you there? It's one of the least passive positions to take because we are then led by what he is doing, and he'll let us know if we need to say something. Yep. If we're actually leaning into what he wants in the situation, I think that we need to have courage in those moments to not back down from the truth when it would be easy to not say anything, but God is saying, actually, this is the moment that you could say something true. And so I think it really is just relying on his leading in that.

SPEAKER_03 28:58

Yeah. Prayer is not passive. It's not so tell me about that. You are challenging me a lot lately on your view of prayer and this whole conversation. Um, I'm feeling a little like a pagan. With but it's been really like prayer is not passive. What do you mean by that? What does that mean when you say prayer is not passive? We just pray for people.

SPEAKER_02 29:22

I mean, I don't I don't I don't even know if what I know think I mean. What I don't even know what I mean by it, but uh, I know I mean things. Um so like when we say like because we're not the Holy Spirit, we we can't fix some, we can't convict someone of sin. Which like so that what that means to me is that like the like we are dealing with a spiritual reality here. Like we have an embodied experience, but there is a spiritual reality here, and um and I don't know, like prayer for me is the the pathway or the communication point of me joining partnership with God, of what he's already doing. Um it's it's a it's a dialogue, it's trying to figure out okay, God, what you're already doing something, especially if you have someone that's walking in your church doors, yeah, God is already doing something in their life to get them to walk through the church doors. I don't care who it is. Like, what drew you here? It's scary to walk in a church. It's it's one of the most intimidating things your issues are. Yeah. And so for me, like, but I I even carry that that that philosophy kind of throughout life. Like, I I I believe because I because of my belief systems around God, I believe that he's doing something in people's lives daily. Everyone, people that even don't acknowledge like we can choose to acknowledge not acknowledge it and we had like various forms of hard hearts. But like for me, prayer helps me join in partnership in in what God is already doing in someone's life. Um, it helps me kind of attune to what he's he's doing. It gives me a roadmap of like, because I I believe that like there's this dance that's taking place in a dance of discipleship of like truth and grace or past like ethics and pastoral care. Um, pastoral care is not ethics, uh ethics is not pastoral care. Um ethics, our ethics as Christians are formed by truth in the Bible, but like grace, like the scriptures separate truth and grace. They existed in the same person, that's Jesus. And so for me, like when I am engaging in prayer, I'm actually asking God, like, okay, like what does this person need? Do they need truth? Do they need grace? Yeah, that's um, and that can happen in one conversation or one one interaction, or like one time one one day it's like, okay, they need a little dose of truth or whatever that is. Okay, Lord, will help me know what to say. Yeah. Um, okay, they just need they need a little bit of grace. They just need someone to have the power of presence and and just do life with them, right? Like to show up when they need it. You know, there's just so so prayer for me is like actually is is not passive. It it kind of gives me helps me with a roadmap because I believe that it it puts me in a position to hear from the Lord of what this person needs or doesn't need it's almost like that friendship with God and that friendship with the person are going at that same time. Yeah, and and there's nothing and it because I can't fix the person, um, because I can't convict them of sin, trust me, I've tried. Um like you try, like you're just like if oh, if I just word this truth just right, whatever, and then I do that, and then the person's like, well, but like, okay, like, well, clearly you're not hearing from the anyway. So that didn't work, whatever, but like it also, but I think more than helping me do something for someone else, it actually does something for me. Um, prayer, prayer like like centers me. It it keeps me focused on the right thing. It keeps me like my it keeps my motivations in the right place. Like, because I can like as someone, like I like I think it's easy to get in the motives of like, oh, let's fix all this stuff. And it's just like, like, is that God's mo what is God's motive? So it helps me, it helps me almost more than the person, whatever, because I actually because I think humans are a little bit more anxious about stuff and fixing it.

SPEAKER_03 33:02

Like casting our anxieties on him instead of on the person anymore.

SPEAKER_02 33:05

And I think it's just like, and especially with forms of sin that are more public than others, yeah. We I grew up I grew up in what I call miniature foot loose, and we really cared about how the exterior looked like, meanwhile, the inside was just broken and and and gone and and stuff like that. And so um, I think when we see more public things, like we really want to think get things buttoned up or whatever, and we don't really care about the inside. As long as you just stop doing that behavior, then we're good, yeah. Yeah, and I I don't have to feel stressed about anything. Whatever.

SPEAKER_03 33:36

So yeah, because it like and can't I just say we always think of we have our own stuff, yeah, right? Yeah, that we're feeling less anxious about, yeah, that we could maybe spend a little bit of time. Yeah. Okay, let me um just ask you a final question. People are listening that um two people, and I want you to answer one, Katie, and you to answer the other. SJ. People are sitting here thinking, I want to share this with somebody. Whatever their version of brokenness is. I actually want to just that vulnerable brokenness in our lives. How would you encourage their heart? How would you what would you encourage them? They're listening, they're like, okay, I think I think I need to actually step out. Like you were in that spot of into relationship. God actually wants this for my life, not to be isolated and alone. Speak to their hearts, what would you say to them?

SPEAKER_02 34:37

Um I would I I think the first thing I would say is that God wants that for your life too. Like, I think like if you're feeling that that's that's probably from from the Lord. And then I would say start praying for who is the right person to share this with. Yeah. Um, I I mean, I I've made some mistakes of of of of not in welcoming the Lord into the vulnerability process, and I've shared things with the wrong people, or maybe not the wrong people, but people that just weren't ready to hear it. And it actually was was painful. And so, but when I started to like, okay, Lord, I think I it's time for me to share this, who's the right person? Yeah. Um someone with a little bit of track record of trust. Yeah, and someone yeah, so they had they I had trust who who and then I think who could I share? Who is there anyone in my life currently that I could share this with? Um, and if you don't have that, then I would say, like, find, I mean, like uh find a church staff, past you small group leader, and like and and and say, Hey, I need help with this, will you help me journey in this or whatever? And and do be prepared that like like and then continue to invite more people into that space, like because like for me it didn't end with Katie. Yeah. I have a I mean you know the you know the people that I'm friends with in Montana and like it it didn't stop there, but like God, like for Kurt Thompson says for us to be okay as humans, we have to be connected. Yeah, we need intimacy. And so like that what that started there, but but man, pray about who the right person is. If you is there someone you currently do they have trust? Um, what's their view of their own brokenness? Do they are they going to like do you are is there already like a shared experience of fun, like positivity? I think uh that was a big thing that built trust between us is actually like we are we already had a friendship. Yeah we we we were vibing. We all we we both had a she had a heart for the Lord, I had a heart, like we had a heart for growth. So you want someone that has a heart for the Lord um in all the right ways, you know, maybe not legalistic ways, but they just they have a heart for growth. Um yeah, and there there's someone that's not gonna leave the minute you say you are vulnerable, that's scary because what level of vulnerability is there someone that's willing to do life with you? Yeah, so those are some of my thoughts, but like don't if the Lord is if that if you're experiencing that, like don't ignore it, don't stuff it. Um the pathway to intimacy is vulnerability, and that's really, really scary. But God wants us to be connected, God wants us to have relationships, God wants us in community, and there's a pathway towards that and it's vulnerability and it's and it's terrifying. And so I I'm wonderful. I validate the terrifying things, but I but it but I my life with I I am where I am today because of the community of people around me.

SPEAKER_03 37:20

So I always say relationships are a little bit like good, healthy relationships are like a roller coaster. You're sometimes screaming half the time, but yeah, as soon as the ride's done, you're like, I want to get back on it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yep. So Katie, what would you say? Just speak to people's hearts that want to be a good friend. And what would you encourage them with? Maybe feeling a little like, I don't, like, am I doing it right? Or, you know, I I want to be that person. What would you say to them? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:48

I think just continue pursuing those relationships and really when when you're feeling those anxieties of am I doing this right? Or am I doing enough? Or am I speaking enough truth? I think those are the times we bring it to the Lord and we say, Lord, what would you say about this? Yeah. Um and I think He He can give us the direction. Yeah He really can. I don't think that we need to be intimidated because he's not intimidated by this process. And I think he wants to give us peace and and so I would say continue on your own journey. Make sure that you are also pursuing the Lord. And I think if you point people to Jesus, you're not gonna be doing it wrong. Yeah, you know, don't point people to yourself. You're not the one that's gonna help anything. So as you pursue Jesus and you pursue friendship with them, like point them to the Lord. God's gonna do all the work.

SPEAKER_03 38:51

Yeah, it's so good. Thank you guys for being honest. Yeah, and I think this has just been such a beautiful picture of the importance of friendship. Yeah, that could be a whole nother podcast series. Yeah, 100%. Um, but we need more friendship, uh, more deep friendships in our lives. Um, I think just no matter what, we're a lonely people. We are and uh it's just beautiful to see the friendship that you guys have had and how that has spurred you on to pursue Jesus in your individual lives. So I appreciate you guys both. So thank you everyone for listening and for um, yeah, being here for this conversation. I hope that God spoke something very specific to your heart. Um, and maybe a next step for you is not to pursue this conversation, but pursue a depth of friendship with someone that you could take a step towards loving them, um, building the friendship that you need in your own life. And I hope that this has um kind of inspired you and given you the courage to do that. So yeah, if you do not subscribe to this podcast, I encourage you to do that so you see these episodes come up on your podcast player. Um, because we have a lot of honest conversations that we really believe at Reality Church will help you follow Jesus better. So thanks for being with us, and we'll see you next week at the Pursue Reality Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 40:21

Thanks for tuning in to the Pursue Reality Podcast. Reality Church is a local church in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. To learn more or get connected, visit us at pursue reality.