Your Therapist Needs Therapy
Everyone needs help with their mental health, even mental health professionals. Join us as we have your therapist take a seat on the couch to talk about their own mental health journey!
Your Therapist Needs Therapy
Your Therapist Needs Therapy 08 - Somatic Smorgasbord with Erica Lima
Jeremy is joined this week by Erica Lima to talk about leaving high-control religions, how trauma is stored in both the body and the brain, how somatic work addresses trauma, and which coast has better oceans.
More info on Erica and her practice can be found at Sunset Trauma Therapy.
Your fearless host Jeremy has all his info at Wellness With Jer.
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Podcasts about therapy do not replace actual therapy, and listening to a podcast about therapy does not signify a therapeutic relationship.
If you or someone you know is in crisis please call or text the nationwide crisis line at 988, or text HELLO to 741741. The Trevor Project has a crisis line for LGBTQ+ young people that can be reached by texting 678678.
Your Therapist Needs Therapy 08 - Somatic Smorgasbord with Erica Lima
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Hello and welcome to another edition of Your Therapist Needs Therapy, a podcast where therapists can talk about their mental health journeys and how they manage to navigate mental wellness in their own lives. This week, I have a very special guest. I’m joined by Erica Lima, Erica. Thanks for coming on.
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(Erica Lima)
Yeah, so thankful to be here and to be a part of the podcast.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah, awesome. My starting off question, has kind of turned into what got you into the mental health field? Like what was that journey for you? Did you know, you wanted to do? It was it trial and error? Kind of tell us how you how you got into the field.
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(Erica Lima)
Sure. Yeah, that’s a that’s a great question. So I am in the field of social work. So I’m a licensed clinical social worker and I’m in private practice now, but actually didn’t start out that way. Um, I would say probably a big part of me that kind of led to my journey into the more kind of social work and aware of social issues. Did have to come from the environment that I was raised in being in a very kind of religious upbringing, highly controlled environment. So there was that kind of sensitivity towards social issues and problems in the world and things that I was very like attentive and sensitive to. So I would say that it definitely started. Pretty young, my awareness of something like the inequalities in the world and like my, you know, anger and discomfort around that. So I would say that was like a big part that did kind of shape me in a positive way, in terms of my interests and passion and wanting to be able to kind of level the playing field and for people to be able to get some of the support that they needed. I think on the flip side of that right there was also just I think coming from that very excuse me Coming from a very kind of highly controlled religious upbringing. There was a lot of misuse of power, right? That was kind of a big part of not only within the church, but also at home, right? Like there was a lot that was happening around this kind of misuse of power. So again, I would say kind of like my sensitivity to that and then
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
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(Erica Lima)
also kind of being a woman, right in some of these space, right?
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(Erica Lima)
And kind of seeing some of like, a patriarchy in sexism,
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(Erica Lima)
that’s kind of playing out. So I think that really kind of started that
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(Erica Lima)
course of okay, I really wanted to go into social work
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(Erica Lima)
and I wanted to kind of fight for the rights of the people, right?
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
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(Erica Lima)
So that was a big start of it. Interesting
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(Erica Lima)
enough. I actually never saw myself going into
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(Erica Lima)
therapy or private practice. I was like, I’m gonna do the hard work
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(Erica Lima)
and the trenches. I’m going to be with the people, right?
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(Erica Lima)
So Which in some sense, I
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(Erica Lima)
had a lot of experience, right? I’ve worked in residential
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(Erica Lima)
treatment centers, people with substance use disorders, people with
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(Erica Lima)
severe mental illness. I’ve worked kind of on the
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(Erica Lima)
Native American reservations kind of supporting the tribes
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(Erica Lima)
so I’ve done like a wide different kind of range of
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Sure. Yeah.
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(Erica Lima)
social worky stuff and and
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(Erica Lima)
now here I am and private practice and so I
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(Erica Lima)
think And I think some of that kind of leading up to that.
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(Erica Lima)
Like obviously we work in this kind of environment that it is
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(Erica Lima)
really easy for social workers to get burnt out and they’re under
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(Erica Lima)
supported and under-resourced. So, I did kind of a
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(Erica Lima)
pivot to be able to
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(Erica Lima)
To really be able to support people on a different level of like, okay, I want to actually
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(Erica Lima)
kind of help with the more kind of culture of mental
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(Erica Lima)
health and being able to support people as they’re working through different issues
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(Erica Lima)
around trauma. And I think being able to kind of put some
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(Erica Lima)
of the words to my own story and understand
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(Erica Lima)
Some of the religious trauma which really isn’t a topic that’s
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
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(Erica Lima)
talked about very much in our society. So that was
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(Erica Lima)
kind of like I would say that was kind of the movement that started happening
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Sure. So you went to school
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(Erica Lima)
for me.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
straight for social work, like that was your early passion of like social
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
injustice and things the patriarchy. And some of these other things
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
that you saw firsthand, you were like, all right, social work. That’s what I want to do.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Okay, What was? I’m always curious when I talked
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
to other people coming from religious backgrounds. What was like the
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Messaging, you got in your childhood around mental health.
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(Erica Lima)
yeah, well, another really great question
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(Erica Lima)
because I mean, I think a big part of it
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(Erica Lima)
was that
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(Erica Lima)
You’re not allowed to have needs, right? And having needs is selfish.
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(Erica Lima)
And so that was just like, I feel like it every
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(Erica Lima)
turn that you would make every decision that you would make, right? A lot of
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(Erica Lima)
it kind of came back to um Okay. If you make
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(Erica Lima)
that decision, or if you do that for yourself, or if it’s not for like
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah, right.
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(Erica Lima)
God’s glory, right? Quotation quotation,
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(Erica Lima)
then itselfish and also it’s
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
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(Erica Lima)
punishable right, or it’s sinful. So I think that is like,
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(Erica Lima)
a really big and and I see that even in the work that I do with clients.
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(Erica Lima)
Now that it keeps coming up, right? Okay, I have all these needs but
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
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(Erica Lima)
then again I can’t acknowledge them or it’s not okay for me to have them, right?
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(Erica Lima)
Or even I have to cut myself off from some of these needs that I
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(Erica Lima)
have Um, which again I was just kind of reflecting
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(Erica Lima)
and and just kind of processing, right
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(Erica Lima)
writing about some of these issues that I work with clients and all of that,
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(Erica Lima)
and that was one, that kind of keeps coming up, right? Is
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
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(Erica Lima)
is in these spaces, right? We’re also taught to
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(Erica Lima)
cut ourself off from some of these like biological
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right.
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(Erica Lima)
needs that we have, right? Whether it’s like Okay these are emotional
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(Erica Lima)
needs. These are sexual needs that. We have this, I need
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
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(Erica Lima)
to take a break. I need to sleep, right? And
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(Erica Lima)
then we get so conditioned and so trained that we have to
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(Erica Lima)
like cut ourselves off from that and that’s a very like violent act to be
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
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(Erica Lima)
like, no, I’m not allowed to have that and then you have that on
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(Erica Lima)
a chronic way, right again, and again, and again and especially
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(Erica Lima)
from pulling positions of power. So I would say
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(Erica Lima)
that’s like a big one that I noticed that comes up for people a lot
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(Erica Lima)
that’s come up for myself as well. Just this kind of like denial of
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(Erica Lima)
needs or if you do that’s like incredibly selfish.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah I grew up fundamentalist not that they call not that
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
we called ourselves fundamentalist, but evangelical Christian and
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(Erica Lima)
Yeah.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
there was this always kind of this idea of like God first, then the church and
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
then your family and like that’s where the list ended, like you were
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
you as an individual were never even on the list. So, yeah, I totally
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
get kind of what you’re talking about with cutting yourself off. I think.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
the selfishness and then like the shame that goes a lot with
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
religious upbringing of like, prioritizing yourself or taking care of yourself
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
is Selfish and then you’re supposed to feel shame over that.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
So like this idea that you need something or you want, something is
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
shameful and like I think that’s so damaging for people especially as they’re growing up
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
because a lot of these things are natural and healthy and then
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
you’re getting like it’s sin or you’re going to hell for that or whatever it is. And
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
like, I know for me, he’ll trauma was like a really big sticking point. I was a very
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
imaginative child, and if he had told me that I was going to a lake
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
of fire for forever like that stuck. So I think that’s something
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
that’s really fascinating and kind of like seeing that as a trauma.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
And and understanding that that reshapes, your brain and
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
your brain has to process things differently because it doesn’t feel safe versus
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
the safety of like, oh, that’s natural and healthy. And like, how do we support that? How do we get your
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
needs met?
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(Erica Lima)
Yeah, absolutely. And I
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(Erica Lima)
think it can really call. And this is another thing that you’re probably familiar with
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(Erica Lima)
as well. But even just how Like mental health
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(Erica Lima)
and mental health issues for people who grew up in really, really just
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(Erica Lima)
environments, like it’s not talked about, there’s this complete denial that it
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(Erica Lima)
exists, right? Or there’s like blaming the person that they have it, right?
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
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(Erica Lima)
So again, they’re being totally like cut off from the support that they need
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(Erica Lima)
access to resources. That was another big part of kind of,
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(Erica Lima)
my story is I was completely sheltered completely cut off
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(Erica Lima)
from the outside world, right? So there was this like restricting of
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(Erica Lima)
being able to even get support or resources like that wasn’t even
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(Erica Lima)
allowed because all of this was controlled. What was coming in what you’re watching? What everything
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
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(Erica Lima)
was controlled? so again, I think that’s like a really big
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(Erica Lima)
piece like, for people who are able to start talking about these things and being able to
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(Erica Lima)
come out of it is to actually say like, Oh my
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(Erica Lima)
gosh, like, it’s okay that I need support. It’s okay. That I have these
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(Erica Lima)
needs like, and even the act of talking about it can be
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(Erica Lima)
can trigger a whole kind of like trauma response, right?
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah. Yeah,
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(Erica Lima)
Like something that gonna happen, I don’t know.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
well then I think it messes with what healthy boundaries should look like because
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(Erica Lima)
Yeah.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
you’re taking on so much of what if it makes this person look bad or
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
it makes the church look bad and the church organized religion in general.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
I would say most if not all of them have this idea of like they’re putting
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
their forward facing persona, or they’re
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
kind of identity in front of any member. Just like, Oh, that makes the church look
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
bad. We’re not gonna, let that get out. We’re gonna hush hush, like, shame on you for
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
having a problem with it. And like, that’s so unhealthy for people who especially people
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
who have been wronged in some way,
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(Erica Lima)
Yeah.
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(Erica Lima)
No, I completely agree that kind of, that whole power dynamic
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(Erica Lima)
again is another piece and so even in therapy, right? That’s something that
00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:28.000
(Erica Lima)
have to be super sensitive. To is a therapist
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah, for sure I think that’s something that I deal with a lot because
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
I’m sys hat. White male like it’s one of those things were like Oh
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
yeah like some people I think it’s comfortable in a way but as a therapist
00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:08.000
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
the default authority
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
and I think sometimes therapy can be really freeing but also some people get
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
scared away from therapy because it’s just so different.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
So so
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(Erica Lima)
It’s very true.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
going back into your history, a little bit you, you did the social work stuff,
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
was there? A point where you felt burnt out? Is that kind of the, the push to
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
private practice? Or was it just kind of as your life experience changed
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
and grew over time? So did your kind of professional interests or what was that like for you?
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(Erica Lima)
Yeah, it was a kind, it was kind of a combination of both. I think
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(Erica Lima)
there was a really big issue kind of around the
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(Erica Lima)
burnout and also just the bureaucracy of it,
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(Erica Lima)
right, like, working in some of these social systems, right? And then not
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(Erica Lima)
like, it’s incredibly frustrating to not be able to really provide
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
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(Erica Lima)
some of the services that the people actually need or to get up doing
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(Erica Lima)
documentation or it’s like we’re fighting for a funding and like we have to
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(Erica Lima)
tell people no for this in this reasons and like it’s just a
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
No.
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(Erica Lima)
mess. So I feel like there’s a point that aspect of you feel like
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(Erica Lima)
kind of you’re spending your wheels like am I actually helping people
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(Erica Lima)
in some of these systems that are not being revamped that are not being
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(Erica Lima)
re-envisioned and reformed, right? So there
00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:32.000
(Erica Lima)
was definitely some like anger and frustration and having done the community mental
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(Erica Lima)
health thing for so long. And I think there
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(Erica Lima)
was also this kind of visionary piece of, like, maybe I
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(Erica Lima)
can do this. Little bit differently, maybe it can like think a little bit differently about
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(Erica Lima)
ways that I want to kind of support, people shifting cultures
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(Erica Lima)
for people to be able to actually kind of name, some of these taboos
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(Erica Lima)
to be able to talk through things. So and then
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
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(Erica Lima)
I had my own kids. So I think that another kind of
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(Erica Lima)
push for myself, that was kind of this wake-up call. Like, I cannot
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(Erica Lima)
keep like running myself into the ground. Kind of like trying to
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
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(Erica Lima)
support these people in a system that doesn’t support or care about them, right?
00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:16.000
(Erica Lima)
And then you’re end up and all these kind of like battles with higher
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(Erica Lima)
management and all of that. So I think that
00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:24.000
(Erica Lima)
was a big part of me, kind of having to take that step back and to kind of
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(Erica Lima)
ask some of those hard questions of like, okay, what do I want
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(Erica Lima)
for myself? What’s important for me? Like What kind of legacy do I
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(Erica Lima)
want to be living if I’m like super burnout and and kind of caught
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(Erica Lima)
in some of these systems. So for me kind of being able to kind of
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(Erica Lima)
Create my own practice to be able to.
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(Erica Lima)
Have like a lowercase load so that I can actually really
00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:52.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Okay.
-
(Erica Lima)
support the people that I’m working with. And I tell them that right? Like,
00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:56.000
(Erica Lima)
I’m here for you so that I can really invest my time
00:13:56.000 --> 00:14:00.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
-
(Erica Lima)
and energy to support you in this journey. So I think that was
00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:04.000
(Erica Lima)
another kind of really big shift, as I was like, I want to do this differently, I don’t
00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:08.000
(Erica Lima)
want to show up, so burn out and giving, you know, the
00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:12.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
-
(Erica Lima)
remains of myself to people.
00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:16.000
(Erica Lima)
But even that is is hard, it’s hard to kind of make that
00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:20.000
(Erica Lima)
decision that shift and then to maintain it, right? Because as
00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:24.000
(Erica Lima)
therapist, I mean
00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:28.000
(Erica Lima)
there’s so many like societal expectations and narratives around
00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:32.000
(Erica Lima)
that we’re supposed to give and give and give and give and been over backwards and we’re not
00:14:32.000 --> 00:14:36.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right. Yes, exactly.
-
(Erica Lima)
supposed to ask for too much money and right.
00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:40.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Some of those. There’s a there’s a bit of an overlap there, between some religious
00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:44.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
stuff, and some stuff for I think people who are in helping professions, whether it’s,
-
(Erica Lima)
Yeah.
00:14:44.000 --> 00:14:48.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
you know, nurses or teachers or therapist.
00:14:48.000 --> 00:15:08.000
00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:12.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
What did that look like? Where you could kind of look and see like, hey, maybe
00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:16.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
the way that I grew up, wasn’t so healthy.
00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:20.000
(Erica Lima)
Yeah, it’s interesting. I think I had a
00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:24.000
(Erica Lima)
the image that comes to my mind. It’s like a 15 year old Erica
00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:28.000
(Erica Lima)
telling my dad like I don’t want to go to church anymore so I’m 15 years
00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:32.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Sure. Yeah.
-
(Erica Lima)
old so I don’t have to right which I wear number
00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:36.000
(Erica Lima)
but so I think there was this aspect of like
00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:40.000
(Erica Lima)
wanting to kind of rebel against this, okay? These
00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:44.000
(Erica Lima)
systems the way things are created here. In some of this religious environment is
00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:48.000
(Erica Lima)
not okay. Um, but kind of the
00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:52.000
(Erica Lima)
way that I even think about it, or even describe it now, it’s almost kind of like
00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:56.000
(Erica Lima)
that. If you think of like a
00:15:56.000 --> 00:16:00.000
(Erica Lima)
abusive relationship, even with the church, right, where it’s like, you’re starting to
00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:04.000
(Erica Lima)
rebel and you’re starting to push back against it and to ask some of those questions, but you don’t
00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:08.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah, right.
-
(Erica Lima)
want to leave it, right? So you kind of like, Well, I still
00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:12.000
(Erica Lima)
needed to be close or still, and so comfortable. Being in this dynamic,
00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:16.000
(Erica Lima)
I can’t fully leave because then I’d be fully kind of abandoned, right?
00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:20.000
(Erica Lima)
So I would say that there were I don’t know, maybe a good
00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:24.000
(Erica Lima)
five to 10 years of kind of that dynamic, where there was this
00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:28.000
(Erica Lima)
kind of being able to really ask some of those hard questions being able to kind of.
00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:32.000
(Erica Lima)
Okay. What does this mean,
00:16:32.000 --> 00:16:36.000
(Erica Lima)
having a space to really explore and process and kind of that deconstruction
00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:40.000
(Erica Lima)
process being away from some of the environment from the
00:16:40.000 --> 00:16:44.000
(Erica Lima)
kind of church and religious leaders and all of that
00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:48.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Sure.
-
(Erica Lima)
wasn’t until probably about my 20s
00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:52.000
(Erica Lima)
that I really was able to kind of walk on my own
00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:56.000
(Erica Lima)
path and kind of have some separation and disconnection from from the
00:16:56.000 --> 00:17:00.000
(Erica Lima)
religion that helped me to, to be able to kind of restore that that
00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:04.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Sure was education like a thing that was
-
(Erica Lima)
internal compass.
00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:08.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
prioritized like this idea that you were going to go to college. Was that kind of a normal thing or
00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:12.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
was it like you’re going to go to the Christian College that’s down the street or like what was that? Kind of
00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:16.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
like
-
(Erica Lima)
I did get sent off to a Christian college
00:17:16.000 --> 00:17:20.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Okay. Yeah.
-
(Erica Lima)
at first and I left and I was like, I’m not doing
00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:24.000
(Erica Lima)
this and I like enrolled myself and and public university,
00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:28.000
(Erica Lima)
which was a really good shift for me.
00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:32.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Hmm.
-
(Erica Lima)
But, you know, it’s interesting, because originally, we kind of talked about
00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:36.000
(Erica Lima)
like, even this part of how in some of these really
00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:40.000
(Erica Lima)
highly controlled environments, right? The education can also really be
00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:44.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
-
(Erica Lima)
restricted, right? I mean, we’re seeing that now in Florida, right?
00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:48.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yes.
-
(Erica Lima)
But I think, like, even that kind of
00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:52.000
(Erica Lima)
happening in that way of like, Oh, you have to go to these schools or you have to get this
00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:56.000
(Erica Lima)
kind of instruction, right? So a big event, I think for me
00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:00.000
(Erica Lima)
was being able to kind of have some autonomy and freedom
00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:04.000
(Erica Lima)
to be able to go to institution that, it’s not that
00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:08.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
-
(Erica Lima)
right? So again, I think kind of like,
00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:12.000
(Erica Lima)
yeah, being able to have that outside support
00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:16.000
(Erica Lima)
resources, ability to critically think
00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:20.000
(Erica Lima)
that is another skill that that a lot of people
00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:24.000
(Erica Lima)
who are survivors of religious trauma. They they don’t have that
00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:28.000
(Erica Lima)
skill developed of like, okay, I can critically think I can ask some of these questions,
00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:32.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right. Yeah, well and that’s I think I talked about this
-
(Erica Lima)
right?
00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:36.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
all the time. Stephen Hassan’s bite model for cult control but like thought
00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:40.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
control in organized. Religion is like, You don’t have to think about these things. We have
00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:44.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
the answer for you. Don’t don’t question it, that’s bad.
-
(Erica Lima)
Right.
00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:48.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Just take this answer. Learn it. Memorize it, you’ve got memory work, you know.
-
(Erica Lima)
Yeah.
00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:52.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
So yeah, I think that’s always, that’s fascinating.
00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:56.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
I like to ask that question a lot because for me education was highly important
00:18:56.000 --> 00:19:00.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
in my family. Both, my parents are teachers, but it was always
00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:04.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
that religious school. And so, for me, going to college, I went to a Big Ten university
00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:08.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
like that was the first time where I was like, Oh, My roommates
00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:12.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
putting a sock on the door because he’s having sex with his girlfriend. Like that’s
00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:16.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
a lot for me. Like I’m this sheltered little naive
00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:20.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
good Christian kid so I think, but that experience for me was really
00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:24.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
helpful in the sense of like being able to just process information
00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:28.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
in my own way and get here from different people and not have to like
00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:32.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Do anything with it, just being able to sit with it and be like, it’s okay that other people
00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:36.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
are this way. And it’s okay that so that for me was, I think super
00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:40.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
helpful. I got pulled back into the religious group after that but college
00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:44.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
was that first like pig like kind of, Oh there’s a, there’s a big broad world out here
00:19:44.000 --> 00:19:48.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
that I have not even scratched the surface of because Grew up in this tiny kind of
00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:52.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
bubble. So
-
(Erica Lima)
Yeah.
00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:56.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
psychology was was, I was interested in psychology
00:19:56.000 --> 00:20:00.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
right away. I wanted to do therapy stuff right away. How was your
00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:04.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
schooling as far as something like private practice? Was that
00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:08.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
talked about as an option? Was that something that that they mentioned
00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:12.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
briefly or was that like, Nope, like the trenches was the like preferred
00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:16.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
way, kind of that badge of honor of like we take on all this terrible
00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:20.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
work and we’re proud of it.
-
(Erica Lima)
Yes, exactly. That actually.
00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:24.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
-
(Erica Lima)
And it’s funny, I was talking to
00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:28.000
(Erica Lima)
some colleagues the other day and they were saying that there were some
00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:32.000
(Erica Lima)
like kind of education about being able to start private practice and to go into
00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:36.000
(Erica Lima)
it. And I was like, Wow, that was not something that was part of the curriculum.
00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:40.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
-
(Erica Lima)
And, and I think part of, I mean, I’m a social worker too. So
00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:44.000
(Erica Lima)
there’s that aspect of the background and the curriculum, but they’re
00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:48.000
(Erica Lima)
actually was a really strong narrative that like, you do not like
00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:52.000
(Erica Lima)
that. You’re selling out to capitalism.
00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:56.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Sure. Yeah.
-
(Erica Lima)
If you go to that route and you do that like, you
00:20:56.000 --> 00:21:00.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
-
(Erica Lima)
are hurting people, it was actually that strong to the
00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:04.000
(Erica Lima)
point where they really tried to dissuade people from not doing that.
00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:08.000
(Erica Lima)
and tried to almost kind of like butter them up, like,
00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:12.000
(Erica Lima)
Oh, this is gonna be great like, you know, you’re gonna go out and actually help
00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:16.000
(Erica Lima)
people and make changes um, and I’m
00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:20.000
(Erica Lima)
I mean in my own way, I’m actually a co-instructor at Arizona State University
00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:24.000
(Erica Lima)
and so on the side, I also like
00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:28.000
(Erica Lima)
Instruct different courses and social work. So there’s a part of me that
00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:32.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
-
(Erica Lima)
still really like values that work. And like, you know,
00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:36.000
(Erica Lima)
the curriculum we still need some work, still need some work.
00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:40.000
(Erica Lima)
But I think it’s so interesting that there is
00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:44.000
(Erica Lima)
this kind of again it’s like a restrictive, like
00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:48.000
(Erica Lima)
trying to control, or things have to look a certain way or not able to kind of
00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:52.000
(Erica Lima)
go out and to, you know, envision
00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:56.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
-
(Erica Lima)
the kind of agency, or work that you want to do.
00:21:56.000 --> 00:22:00.000
(Erica Lima)
So that was something that I kind of like had to learn about and
00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:04.000
(Erica Lima)
find out on my own it was definitely not something that was talked about even among
00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:08.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
-
(Erica Lima)
my colleagues or in the program that I was in. So, Yeah.
00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:12.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah, I think it is changing a little bit even, just,
00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:16.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
I know there are podcasts that, like, new therapist
00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:28.000
00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:32.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
needs
00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:40.000
00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:44.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
therapy. So I think I think that is that’s wild.
-
(Erica Lima)
Right.
00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:48.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
I love hearing kind of where people are at and their careers and kind of when that
00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:52.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
like, how they get to that point of stepping away.
00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:56.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
You talked about having kids. And for me,
00:22:56.000 --> 00:23:00.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
that was a big shift as far as professional work life balance, but also,
00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:04.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
I think my own, like, deconstruction of being like, oh,
00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:08.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
I’m not teaching my kid. No on the ark. I don’t, I don’t believe that anymore but like
00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:12.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
having so much of that stuff still around and like still definitely in my family.
00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:16.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
I think I’m the only person in in the family who stepped away from the church
00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:20.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
completely and so it’s one of those things that like When you see it
00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:24.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
for that next generation. Being like, yeah, I don’t want this for that.
-
(Erica Lima)
Mmm.
00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:28.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
But that work-life balance I think too really hits and
-
(Erica Lima)
Yes.
00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:32.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
and I’m a male. So, I was working. Well, my wife was doing
00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:36.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
a lot. My wife works too. It wasn’t a great setup at first, but
00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:40.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
that idea of like Gender roles, I think around
00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:44.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
work life. Balance is definitely different and there’s definitely some I think ingrained
00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:48.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
patriarchy in that process too.
-
(Erica Lima)
Yeah.
00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:52.000
(Erica Lima)
No I completely agree with you and yeah I
00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:56.000
(Erica Lima)
think it’s I’m noticing too just kind of like hearing you talk about
00:23:56.000 --> 00:24:00.000
(Erica Lima)
it and some of my own story and then like other people that I’ve worked
00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:04.000
(Erica Lima)
with in some fashion like I think there is this really big
00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:08.000
(Erica Lima)
generational piece to it right? Where this kind of next
00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:12.000
(Erica Lima)
generation. People are starting to really kind of walk away from religion altogether.
00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:16.000
(Erica Lima)
Right? We’re seeing this like in our country and culture
00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:20.000
(Erica Lima)
in so many different ways. And so it’s posed this whole new
00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:24.000
(Erica Lima)
set of issues just around like, okay, parents or
00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:28.000
(Erica Lima)
grandparents, who have these ideas of philosophies that are trying to impose on the
00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:32.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right. Yeah.
-
(Erica Lima)
grandkids, right? And then you’re stuck in the middle trying to like,
00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:36.000
(Erica Lima)
navigate and trying to create some kind of sense of autonomy, or
00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:40.000
(Erica Lima)
boundaries, or just a new pathway for your kids
00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:44.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
-
(Erica Lima)
to be able to explore on their own, right? I feel like that’s
00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:48.000
(Erica Lima)
another like really challenging piece that there is that kind of
00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:52.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
And I think generational
-
(Erica Lima)
generational piece as well.
00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:56.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
trauma to for people whose family have been in the same religious
00:24:56.000 --> 00:25:00.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
group for a long time that gets ingrained. And then if you’re
00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:04.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
the generation who breaks the trend trying to set healthy boundaries with people who
00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:08.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
have no idea what healthy boundaries look like, gets a lot,
00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:12.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
a lot of pushback.
-
(Erica Lima)
Mm-hmm.
00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:16.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
So I think that that can be messy, it’ll be interesting. I’m fascinated. You, you mentioned
00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:20.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
this and just sort of by happenstance The early
00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:24.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
guests on the podcasts have been heavy on religious drama but like it is still kind of
00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:28.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
a smaller aspect of the field. I’m, I’m watching this data
00:25:28.000 --> 00:25:32.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
and these statistics come out of people leaving the church. And I’m curious how much
00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:36.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
need there will be and how much growth there’s gonna be in this side of the practice
00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:40.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
for people who are stepping away Millennials. And and
00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:44.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
under I think,
-
(Erica Lima)
Yeah, absolutely.
00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:48.000
(Erica Lima)
I mean, I think even that it’s kind of being more talked about
00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:52.000
(Erica Lima)
and kind of explained topic and this is what it looks like and this is
00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:56.000
(Erica Lima)
how it can show up. I think that’s really kind of started
00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:00.000
(Erica Lima)
to be able to, kind of support people in these different ways. But I think there’s a
00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:04.000
(Erica Lima)
really huge need in terms of kind of
00:26:04.000 --> 00:26:08.000
(Erica Lima)
support for people who are deconstructing who are leaving or
00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:12.000
(Erica Lima)
have left, right? Because there’s also this really big absence of
00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:16.000
(Erica Lima)
communal support, right? So if you are a part of this like,
00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:20.000
(Erica Lima)
religion for so many years of your life, there is this kind of built-in community
00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:24.000
(Erica Lima)
support. That is there whether it’s healthy or not, right?
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:28.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right.
-
(Erica Lima)
It’s another question. But then people who are starting to like, you know,
00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:32.000
(Erica Lima)
leave in their own way or to
00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:36.000
(Erica Lima)
deconstruct or whatever word you want to use, right? Not only can it cause like, estrangement
00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:40.000
(Erica Lima)
from the family. But also, there, they’re walking into this kind of
00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:44.000
(Erica Lima)
world where they don’t really have. Support or they don’t really have people who kind of
00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:48.000
(Erica Lima)
understand or are able to kind of create a new kind of
00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:52.000
(Erica Lima)
culture around. Like, Okay, we can, we can be connected to
00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:56.000
(Erica Lima)
other people. So I think that’s another big thing that I’m noticing is just kind of that.
00:26:56.000 --> 00:27:00.000
(Erica Lima)
It’s very lonely. There’s like that lack of support as well.
00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:04.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah, and I think people don’t you. You talked about skill set
00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:08.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
earlier. I don’t know that people coming out of religious groups have the skill set to find that
00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:12.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
support because that community that church community is. So like
00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:16.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
ingrained, it’s just, they didn’t work for it at all. So building new connections
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:20.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
or finding support is a totally foreign concept to a lot of them.
00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:24.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
I think it’s, it’s been wild
-
(Erica Lima)
Mm-hmm.
00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:28.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
as I’ve gotten into this side of the field, a little bit more and
00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:32.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
got my certification and stuff like that on different and guests on different YouTube
00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:36.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
shows or podcasts or whatever. Like there is kind of a A
00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:40.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
phase of like the angry atheism phase When you’re like first breaking off and then like
00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:44.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Oh now what? Like because for a lot of people I think that that label of
00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:48.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
just like I’m not that religion anymore is a very
00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:52.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
limiting label because there’s then like well what are you instead?
00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:56.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
And I think that work is is really fun and freeing, but
-
(Erica Lima)
Mm-hmm.
00:27:56.000 --> 00:28:00.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
very scary when you first when you first step into that.
-
(Erica Lima)
Yeah.
00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:04.000
(Erica Lima)
absolutely, I think it’s a whole like
00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:08.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
-
(Erica Lima)
Identity work and shifting to be able to
00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:12.000
(Erica Lima)
understand who you are and and what’s important to you
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:16.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right. Yeah,
-
(Erica Lima)
and what what your needs are, right?
00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:20.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
and it’s it’s I think a loss of families, a big thing, I think, for a lot of
00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:24.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
clients that I work with, and I experience this as well too thinking that, like, everybody,
00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:28.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
I grew up with was so nice and then only like, experience it like, oh,
00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:32.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
they were just nice. As long as like, I fit into this nice neat little
00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:36.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
box. But like, after I deconstructed or after I was asking questions, like
00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:40.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Not so nice anymore. And I think there’s like this almost kind of
-
(Erica Lima)
Mm-hmm.
00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:44.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
for a lot of people like a betrayal that happens that they have to kind of work through and
00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:48.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
that’s harm or that’s trauma, maybe even little T trauma as
00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:52.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
opposed to big T trauma. But like that’s that’s another trauma on top of everything else
00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:56.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
that they are then working through.
-
(Erica Lima)
Yeah,
00:28:56.000 --> 00:29:00.000
(Erica Lima)
no, I completely agree that betrayal piece can be
00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:04.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah, and then finding community
-
(Erica Lima)
really big part of it.
00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:08.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
I think is is super helpful. I joke. Now, at this point and in
00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:12.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
my my process to be like the atheists. I am friends with are way nicer than
00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:16.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
the Christians I ever was. But yeah, it’s
-
(Erica Lima)
Yeah.
00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:20.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
it’s fascinating. So how I know lived experience was a big thing for you. But kind of,
00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:24.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
how do you decide what to study and and
00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:28.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Working with something like religious trauma or just trauma in general, you
00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:32.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
have kind of a smorgasbord of approaches that you offer for people
00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:36.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
who are dealing with that, is that just from being in the field and seeing that different people
00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:40.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
need different things or is this like an ongoing interest for you where you’re
00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:44.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
like, Oh, like that’s fascinating research. Let me go study that and get certified.
00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:48.000
(Erica Lima)
Yeah. Now, I would say another big
00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:52.000
(Erica Lima)
aspect of kind of issues or people. I work with this.
00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:56.000
(Erica Lima)
Also just like women’s issues and Another thing
00:29:56.000 --> 00:30:00.000
(Erica Lima)
that I really kind of notice or to interest in was like, the more
00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:04.000
(Erica Lima)
somatic based approaches. So even in school,
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:08.000
(Erica Lima)
we’re kind of taught a little bit more about kind of cognitive based approaches
00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:12.000
(Erica Lima)
and like, thinking our way out of things and definitely there’s a
00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:16.000
(Erica Lima)
place for that and all of that. But I think what I found is, as I started,
00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:20.000
(Erica Lima)
kind of leaning more into, like, the somatic based approaches
00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:24.000
(Erica Lima)
as that is, there was this kind of whole kind of
00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:28.000
(Erica Lima)
bottom-up approach, being able to kind of access either implicit
00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:32.000
(Erica Lima)
memory being able to help the body kind of mobilize in these different ways to
00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:36.000
(Erica Lima)
process different aspects of the trauma, that might be kind of
00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:40.000
(Erica Lima)
held in the body in these different ways. So I would say, one of the key
00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:44.000
(Erica Lima)
parts of my shift and interest in that direction
00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:48.000
(Erica Lima)
is I started working with. I don’t know
00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:52.000
(Erica Lima)
if you’re familiar with resume menikim. He’s a licensed clinical social worker, black
00:30:52.000 --> 00:30:56.000
(Erica Lima)
man, who he started. This organization that does
00:30:56.000 --> 00:31:00.000
(Erica Lima)
education for racial equity and he’s kind of specializes
00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:04.000
(Erica Lima)
it around cultural somatics and so they have different kind of
00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:08.000
(Erica Lima)
courses for people in white bodies, people in black bodies and bodies culture, right?
00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:12.000
(Erica Lima)
So it’s like a year-long course and you can kind of
00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:16.000
(Erica Lima)
continue to do it again each year. So, now, Like you’re three almost
00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:20.000
(Erica Lima)
or two and a half, something like that. But the really unique thing
00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:24.000
(Erica Lima)
about it is that there is this like really heavy kind of cultural
00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:28.000
(Erica Lima)
somatics piece to it. So you’re kind of also
00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:32.000
(Erica Lima)
placed into a cohort of other people. So there were two other
00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:36.000
(Erica Lima)
People in my group. And so we would practice a lot of
00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:40.000
(Erica Lima)
these like somatic pieces with each other weekly. So, there was
00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:44.000
(Erica Lima)
that aspect of it that I was doing for myself and just being in
00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:48.000
(Erica Lima)
a white body and society, that, you know, we live in this kind of white supremacist
00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:52.000
(Erica Lima)
environment. So that was like a big part of like,
00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:56.000
(Erica Lima)
the foundation piece and then kind of stemming from that
00:31:56.000 --> 00:32:00.000
(Erica Lima)
and some of my own interests. And I also went and got trained and somatic attachment
00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:04.000
(Erica Lima)
therapy, which again that. And then also
00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:08.000
(Erica Lima)
internal family systems, which also really just kind of looks at
00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:12.000
(Erica Lima)
the body. Different sensations, that may come up in the
00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:16.000
(Erica Lima)
body. Like, an example like to use is, you know, if somebody’s
00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:20.000
(Erica Lima)
talking about their mom and they start like clinching, their jaw or
00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:24.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Okay.
-
(Erica Lima)
they were like holding their breath. So that might be something
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:28.000
(Erica Lima)
that I might kind of slow them down. That’s information, right? So we
00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:32.000
(Erica Lima)
might just kind of be aware of what’s happening for them and their body
00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:36.000
(Erica Lima)
to be able to kind of in Some of that material. So it’s
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:40.000
(Erica Lima)
just a little bit different way of kind of working through,
00:32:40.000 --> 00:32:44.000
(Erica Lima)
whatever it is, whether it’s trauma or even just kind of unprocessed
00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:48.000
(Erica Lima)
emotions or grief and loss, like, there’s a lot of things that we go through
00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:52.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
-
(Erica Lima)
that can actually be kind of stored and held in the body. So,
00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:56.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah, for sure. I think the more that I have
00:32:56.000 --> 00:33:00.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Worked in the area of trauma, the more like body work. I end up,
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:04.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
keep adding and, and tacking on. And I, I approach it a little bit backwards
-
(Erica Lima)
Yes.
00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:08.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
from, I have a sports background as well. So, I’ve done coaching and done, mental
00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:12.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
wellness, for student athletes. And so, like I was really big on yoga.
00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:16.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Just for the health benefits and the mind body connection. And then when I got
00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:20.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
certified in religious trauma being like, Oh yeah, like there’s all this overlap
00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:24.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
in this body stuff that makes sense for someone who’s at a physical injury
00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:28.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
versus somebody who’s had a emotional injury or a mental injury, like the
00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:32.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
body, and the brain process them pretty. Similarly, and so
00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:36.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
being able to like, practice a lot of those things in a different context. I know for me, it was
00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:40.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
eye-opening to just get more and more tools, because I did a lot of
00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:44.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
breath work with people and being like, oh, right for somebody who had to hold their breath.
00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:48.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Because their parent was unsafe, or somebody who had, you know, a
00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:52.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
situation where holding their breath was a survival tactic like that isn’t a good tool
00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:56.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
for that person in processing their trauma. So like, I think learning all
00:33:56.000 --> 00:34:00.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
these different ways to process it. Both mentally
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:04.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
and physically because yeah, I, I would agree. My training was
00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:08.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
heavy on the intellectualization, of mental health and
00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:12.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
kind of like, taking I write about it. A lot, taking the brain out of the body, which doesn’t make any
00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:16.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
sense, because the brain is a body part, so we can’t help the brain if we’re
00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:20.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
not dealing with the body stuff too.
-
(Erica Lima)
yeah, no I
00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:24.000
(Erica Lima)
completely agree and I think Even just for me like being
00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:28.000
(Erica Lima)
a therapist
00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:32.000
(Erica Lima)
needs
00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:40.000
00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:44.000
(Erica Lima)
therapy.
00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:48.000
(Erica Lima)
to be able to not hold in everything
00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:52.000
(Erica Lima)
that were you know, processing and talking about
00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:56.000
(Erica Lima)
because I think yeah I mean as therapist
00:34:56.000 --> 00:35:00.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah, right.
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:08.000
00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:12.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:16.000
00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:20.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
yeah, and I think I look back
-
(Erica Lima)
Yeah.
00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:24.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Young young Jeremy. Did you know seven or
00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:28.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
eight clients a day? Back to back to back? No breaks in between, never taking a
00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:32.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
lunch break, like all that stuff. And it’s a wild like thinking of
00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:36.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
the way I run my practice now or like I have breaks, I take lunch, I try and
00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:40.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
take lunch outside like there’s so much more of like I
00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:44.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
can do better work. If I’m invested in myself as opposed to kind of this
00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:48.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
like Just like nose to the grind of like, I’m gonna smash
00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:52.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
as many sessions as I can into a day to help as many people as possible. I mean,
00:35:52.000 --> 00:35:56.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
like, I don’t know that that like Ninth Session of the day was all that good.
00:35:56.000 --> 00:36:00.000
(Erica Lima)
Yeah, no I can totally
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:04.000
(Erica Lima)
relate. I think it’s like Yeah. It’s kind of like getting to that place where
00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:08.000
(Erica Lima)
you kind of rub up against your own kind of limitations and
00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:12.000
(Erica Lima)
our own boundaries, right? That kind of allow us to like, okay, wait a minute, this
00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:16.000
(Erica Lima)
doesn’t feel good. This isn’t working right to have, to be able to kind of
00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:20.000
(Erica Lima)
re-envision that, but yeah, I cantally relate. I’ve been there as well, so,
00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:24.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
So yeah, now running my own practice like
-
(Erica Lima)
Yeah.
00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:28.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
I have a day where I don’t see clients and like, whether I use it
-
(Erica Lima)
Yeah.
00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:32.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
to catch up on paperwork, or I want to go to do something with my
00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:36.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
boys. I have two young boys, or if we’re, you know, some days. It’s just me. And
00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:40.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
I’m like, gonna go out on the river because I need to just kind of unplug and
00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:44.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
like do my own mental health and wellness check.
00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:48.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
But like that’s been really totally different than how I’ve ever practiced before.
00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:52.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
It’s always been like, Where can I fit people in? And how can I offer hours that work for people?
00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:56.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
And it’s never been like, Nope, this is my day, what I don’t have clients
00:36:56.000 --> 00:37:00.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
so I think that’s, that’s really wild then to see like, Oh yeah,
00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:04.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
like I probably do that intellectually but was not putting it into
00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:08.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
practice.
-
(Erica Lima)
Yeah, I think similar for
00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:12.000
(Erica Lima)
me as well. Like, I structure my day, like, my hours are between
00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:16.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
-
(Erica Lima)
nine and two and I’m done by 2 pm, right? So when my kids school,
00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:20.000
(Erica Lima)
I can really just kind of shift gears and be put on my mom hat and
00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:24.000
(Erica Lima)
be there for them. And I think that is such a major
00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:28.000
(Erica Lima)
shift for me, that makes me and such a better mentally
00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:32.000
(Erica Lima)
and emotional space right? To be able to. Okay. These are
00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:36.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
-
(Erica Lima)
my work hours and I’m done, right? And I can shift gears in the
00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:40.000
(Erica Lima)
past, it was like the last job that comes to my mind. I was the
00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:44.000
(Erica Lima)
director of residential Facility. And it
00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:48.000
(Erica Lima)
was just like, really long hours or it was like always on call during the
00:37:48.000 --> 00:37:52.000
(Erica Lima)
week and then on the weekend, I was also on call. And since it was like an
00:37:52.000 --> 00:37:56.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
-
(Erica Lima)
overnight facility, I was also on call. So it was just kind of
00:37:56.000 --> 00:38:00.000
(Erica Lima)
like your brain and your body in some ways always kind of
00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:04.000
(Erica Lima)
on, right? So being able to like have that ability
00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:08.000
(Erica Lima)
to actually turn in off, right? Or to actually not to be working,
00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:12.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah,
-
(Erica Lima)
I think that’s such a major shift.
00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:16.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
for sure.
00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:20.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Going off of that a little bit. What does your kind of self-care
00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:24.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
practice? What’s like wellness where you look
00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:28.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
like at this point in your career? Like obviously that work-life balance is a lot different and
00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:32.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
healthier it sounds like, but what do you do kind of actively to invest in your
00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:36.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
mental well-being.
-
(Erica Lima)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, it’s something
00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:40.000
(Erica Lima)
that’s always evolving and changing, right? And I think even that
00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:44.000
(Erica Lima)
aspect of allowing it to always evolve and change and moving away from
00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:48.000
(Erica Lima)
rigidity, has been really healing for me, right?
00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:52.000
(Erica Lima)
That it doesn’t have to look like, okay, every day. I’m gonna do this, right? Or
00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:56.000
(Erica Lima)
I have to do this and if I don’t do, this is an indicator that I’m not healthy.
00:38:56.000 --> 00:39:00.000
(Erica Lima)
So it’s a lot more kind of fluid.
00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:04.000
(Erica Lima)
I think, for me, like walking in between sessions has been a really big
00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:08.000
(Erica Lima)
thing for me to be able to kind of get up and mobilize and to have
00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:12.000
(Erica Lima)
some kind of movement getting outdoors. Like going to
00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:16.000
(Erica Lima)
the beach is another thing that is very connecting in nature.
00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:20.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
-
(Erica Lima)
I think that is very soothing just to be able to kind of have that space
00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:24.000
(Erica Lima)
where I can get away from everything, and I can just go sit and be still.
00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:28.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
-
(Erica Lima)
And then also simple things. Like just getting out and going
00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:32.000
(Erica Lima)
for a coffee with a friend or something. That’s just very
00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:36.000
(Erica Lima)
simple. But just the act of like being able to sit down and have
00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:40.000
(Erica Lima)
some connection with somebody. That’s something that I really prioritize
00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:44.000
(Erica Lima)
because it just makes such a difference to be able to have that space where I’m like, Okay
00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:48.000
(Erica Lima)
I get to go out meet with a friend or a colleague or something like that.
00:39:48.000 --> 00:39:52.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
-
(Erica Lima)
So those are like the main ones that I have
00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:56.000
(Erica Lima)
more on like a rhythm or routine. And then some of like this
00:39:56.000 --> 00:40:00.000
(Erica Lima)
somatic work that I do. So even just like the rocking the swing,
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:04.000
(Erica Lima)
like other parts of it are like the humming, the singing listening to music.
00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:08.000
(Erica Lima)
Those things are things that really kind of help with my nervous system
00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:12.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
-
(Erica Lima)
and being able to kind of regulate in all of that. And then I
00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:16.000
(Erica Lima)
would say like traveling is another big thing for me that I really enjoy.
00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:20.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right. Yeah.
-
(Erica Lima)
So that’s obviously something next Scheduled in right with time.
00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:24.000
(Erica Lima)
Um, but that ability to like explore and
00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:28.000
(Erica Lima)
to get up and to go somewhere I think is another big part of like
00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:32.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah. For sure
-
(Erica Lima)
self-care.
00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:36.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
what’s on your bookshelf? What are you reading? What are you kind of? What’s the
00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:40.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
thing that’s taken up the interest in your mind right now?
00:40:40.000 --> 00:40:44.000
(Erica Lima)
Yeah so I just got no bad parts by
00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:48.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Mm-hmm.
-
(Erica Lima)
Richard. Schwartz from the Internal Family Systems model
00:40:48.000 --> 00:40:52.000
(Erica Lima)
so I’m really excited. That’s one that I’m going to be reading pretty soon
00:40:52.000 --> 00:40:56.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah. Very cool. Yes, we had I don’t want to say a whole episode
-
(Erica Lima)
so yeah.
00:40:56.000 --> 00:41:00.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
on Ifs, but one of the other therapist,
00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:04.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
the work that he did and also
00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:08.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
now doing it as a therapist.
00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:12.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Therapeutic approach, I think. You talked about listening to music.
00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:16.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
I’m a music fan myself. I’ve ADHD and so
00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:20.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
pretty much all the time there’s music on because that background
00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:24.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
stimulation really helps to kind of slow my other
00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:28.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
brain processes. Down. What do you like to listen to what’s been your jam
00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:32.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
recently?
-
(Erica Lima)
Yeah. So right now I’m listening to
00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:36.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Sure. Yep.
-
(Erica Lima)
Japanese breakfast. Sure here. Yeah. I really
00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:40.000
(Erica Lima)
like like some of the lyrical component of that so that’s one
00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:44.000
(Erica Lima)
that’s like, you know, on my rotation I have other ones that
00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:48.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
-
(Erica Lima)
kind of like an indie fan. I like some like underground music
00:41:48.000 --> 00:41:52.000
(Erica Lima)
Leo Souls. Another one, where I like to find just
00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:56.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
-
(Erica Lima)
kind of like more kind of like hidden artists that really catch me
00:41:56.000 --> 00:42:00.000
(Erica Lima)
either with lyrics or tune. So I’m always kind of like on
00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:04.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Okay.
-
(Erica Lima)
a hunt for her music but yeah those are two.
00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:08.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah, do you use music in session
-
(Erica Lima)
Just top of my head that I
00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:12.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
at all?
-
(Erica Lima)
I don’t really but I’m totally
00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:16.000
(Erica Lima)
not against it. I’ve used it in like a term of kind of like
00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:20.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
-
(Erica Lima)
background noise or soothing. When
00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:24.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Sure right.
-
(Erica Lima)
worked with kids, It was something that we used a lot right to be able,
00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:28.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
-
(Erica Lima)
Let’s talk about the song in the lyrics, and what does it mean to you?
00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:32.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah,
-
(Erica Lima)
No longer working with kids. So I don’t use it as much, but
00:42:32.000 --> 00:42:36.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
I have it on all the time, just for my own
-
(Erica Lima)
yeah.
00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:40.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
mental will be and but I always it’s, it’s a thing that I think is fascinating because I think
00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:44.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
art, especially is a way to kind of, like, let people open up. They
00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:48.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
can talk about some of these heavier things, or this the song or this
00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:52.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
still shot from a movie, or the scene in a movie really encapsulates. How they feel about
00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:56.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
it. So I like to talk about stuff like that, even if I don’t use it, kind of, as a
00:42:56.000 --> 00:43:00.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
technique anymore. Very cool.
00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:04.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
What if people are kind of looking for your
00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:08.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
information, the work that you’re doing? Where can they find you? How
00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:12.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
do they learn more?
-
(Erica Lima)
Here. So I provide
00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:16.000
(Erica Lima)
telehealth and virtual services in the state of California. So anywhere in the state of California,
00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:20.000
(Erica Lima)
my website is Sunset,
00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:24.000
(Erica Lima)
Www.sunset Trauma therapy.com.
00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:28.000
(Erica Lima)
So they can also Google Sunset, Trauma Therapy or
00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:32.000
(Erica Lima)
My name is Erica Lima, License, Clinical Social Worker, but
00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:36.000
(Erica Lima)
probably my website is probably the easiest way to find me to get in touch with me
00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:40.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Sure.
-
(Erica Lima)
for 15 minutes. Free consultations for anybody
00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:44.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah,
-
(Erica Lima)
who’s gonna be open or interested for therapy?
00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:48.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
and you are from the East Coast. But now reside on the West Coast which
-
(Erica Lima)
I
00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:52.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
which,
-
(Erica Lima)
am. Yes. Yes, that is correct. I
00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:56.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Ocean is better. What’s what’s the preference for beaches?
00:43:56.000 --> 00:44:00.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Sure.
-
(Erica Lima)
And I was also in New York. So I was trying to hit all the big six.
00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:04.000
(Erica Lima)
I mean, the, the scenic out here is
00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:08.000
(Erica Lima)
incredible right with the Mountains Pacific. So I think I’m
00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:12.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Sure, very cool. Well Erica,
-
(Erica Lima)
gonna have to side the Pacific. So yeah.
00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:16.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
it has been awesome. Having you on. Thanks so much for joining today.
00:44:16.000 --> 00:44:20.000
(Erica Lima)
Yeah, I really appreciate talking with you Jeremy. Thanks for
00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:24.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah, and you can find all of Erica stuff. We’ll have all
-
(Erica Lima)
connecting.
00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:28.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
her links and website in the show notes. I’m Jeremy, you can find all my information
00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:32.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
at my website, wellness, with Jerry.com, and we will be back next week with another
00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:36.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
episode. Take care, everyone.
00:44:36.000 --> 00:44:37.000