Your Therapist Needs Therapy
Everyone needs help with their mental health, even mental health professionals. Join us as we have your therapist take a seat on the couch to talk about their own mental health journey!
Your Therapist Needs Therapy
Your Therapist Needs Therapy 09 - The Lazy Brain with David Teachout
This week’s guest is David Teachout. Jeremy and David have a wide-ranging chat that includes topics on how going to Bible college can make you leave the faith, how deconstruction doesn’t require people to rebuild their identity, and believe it or not, some good examples of therapy in pop culture!
David’s practice info can be found at https://www.lifeweavings.com/, which also includes a bunch of great, free resources. And be sure to check out his photography page, our conversation flew by so fast we didn’t even get to talk about it!
Jeremy’s info is all helpfully collected in one place at Wellness With Jer.
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Podcasts about therapy do not replace actual therapy, and listening to a podcast about therapy does not signify a therapeutic relationship.
If you or someone you know is in crisis please call or text the nationwide crisis line at 988, or text HELLO to 741741. The Trevor Project has a crisis line for LGBTQ+ young people that can be reached by texting 678678.
Your Therapist Needs Therapy Episode Nine - The Lazy Brain with David Teachout
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Hello and welcome to another edition of Your Therapist Needs Therapy, a podcast where therapists can talk about their mental health journeys and talk about how they navigate their own mental wellness while being in the mental health field. I have a very special guest today, someone who’s done the podcast game before, has spoken at conferences, has done pretty much all the things you can do in addition to doing therapy, I'm joined today by David Teachout. David, thanks for joining me.
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(David Teachout)
Thank you, Jeremy. Happy to be here.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
So, I always start with kind of, how'd you get into the profession? What was the draw for mental health? Was it your calling from early on? Or was it something you stumbled into accidentally? How'd you, how'd you get here?
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(David Teachout)
Yeah, maybe a deliberate stumble, right if that can be described that way. I mean I started off my undergraduate degree was program was through a Bible college because I was going to be a pastor and that didn't work out because I completely left Christianity around 2001 and what was still finding myself. You know, you intrigued around religion and didn't quite know what to do with myself. So, basically has changed majors to Psych and ended up kind of double majoring sort of in, you know, theology and psychology and and just loved it. It was great. And then was like, okay, well, I like people. still do and
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Hmm, good thing.
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(David Teachout)
but for the most part it, um,
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(David Teachout)
And then but I love, you know, talking getting
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(David Teachout)
to know people and hearing people's stories and, you know,
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(David Teachout)
figuring out well, shoot, you know, how do I work
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(David Teachout)
and why did I believe the things that I did and why don't I
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(David Teachout)
now? And what makes other people do the things they
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(David Teachout)
do and so like just seem to be the place to go.
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(David Teachout)
And so you know, completed that program and then went
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(David Teachout)
on to get a master's in both
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(David Teachout)
French psychology in mental, health counseling. So
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(David Teachout)
because I love the wall as well, if I had to do it all over again,
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Sure.
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(David Teachout)
I consider just going straight up lawyer.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
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(David Teachout)
Maybe but I'm not entirely certain. I'd be happy with the person
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(David Teachout)
I turned into but but it would be, it would be interesting.
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(David Teachout)
So yeah, don't got that. And I've been in
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(David Teachout)
the, you know, psych field for
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(David Teachout)
Almost 20 years now. And,
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(David Teachout)
you know, worked with everybody from, you know, kids in foster care,
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(David Teachout)
helping, teach social skills kids are coming out of abuse homes
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(David Teachout)
to, you know, adults, couples
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(David Teachout)
elderly in chronic, you know,
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(David Teachout)
mental health, issues and combined, with medical problems.
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(David Teachout)
So where they lived in like a, in home environment.
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(David Teachout)
And, and then also with people who are in
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(David Teachout)
prison. So it's really
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
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(David Teachout)
yeah, there isn't really quite a demographic that I haven't worked with yet, which
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(David Teachout)
is In my mind, great because
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
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(David Teachout)
I can draw from a lot of different experiences.
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(David Teachout)
And in that the same token,
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(David Teachout)
You know, people are fascinating. Even if they are
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
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(David Teachout)
sometimes obnoxious ridiculous and foolish
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(David Teachout)
myself included. So yeah.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah. I talk about, I talk about humans are
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
endlessly fascinating. Even if they follow the same patterns over and over again, just all
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(David Teachout)
Rights.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
the unique variables of each person. Make it always so interesting.
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(David Teachout)
Every time. Yeah, yeah. It's really
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(David Teachout)
the habits we get into and what it, you know, it's
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(David Teachout)
always astounding when people go. Wow. You just really get
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(David Teachout)
me and Oh, well, like, How did you figure this out?
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(David Teachout)
Like, well, people are both less and more
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(David Teachout)
complicated than they think of themselves. It's really an interesting.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
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(David Teachout)
Yeah piece. So yeah.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah. For sure. So did
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
you double major at the Bible College then or did you leave the Bible? Did you leave the Bible
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(David Teachout)
Yeah, no, like completed it.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
College to finish school?
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(David Teachout)
So, and I, I call a double,
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Okay.
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(David Teachout)
majoring, simply because I had to take the housing courses, every single semester, and
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(David Teachout)
then, of course he had, you know, got a, the degree. I don't know if it
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(David Teachout)
really referred to it, as it was just a lot of classes.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Sure.
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(David Teachout)
Program, it was like. A
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(David Teachout)
BS in interdisciplinary studies, which I think was
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Okay.
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(David Teachout)
their equivalent of a liberal arts degree,
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(David Teachout)
kind of thing. So but,
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah, sure.
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(David Teachout)
you know, at the time I didn't quite know what
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(David Teachout)
credits would transfer. And so, like, I don't know what
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah, that's that's a trick with the
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(David Teachout)
to do, right? Yeah. Like it's accredited but
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Bible College, isn't it?
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(David Teachout)
I'm not sure and I was you knowing
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(David Teachout)
ignorant. 20 year old. I mean, he's just like I don't know what's going on here. So
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
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(David Teachout)
I just stuck it out to say a little bit, probably out of spite, you know,
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(David Teachout)
I was no longer a believer and basically wanted to get through the
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(David Teachout)
rest of it, so that nobody could come up to me later and go,
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(David Teachout)
if you'd only stayed your questions would have been answered and
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(David Teachout)
yeah. No, I mean I still get that but
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
That you need. Yeah,
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(David Teachout)
it's yeah.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
you need that. That senior year. Final course in Christianity to
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(David Teachout)
Yeah that would have nailed it. Yeah that like that one
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
really understand it all
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(David Teachout)
chorus and like no gone all the way to 500 level courses and
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
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(David Teachout)
yeah still sitting here with no. So
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(David Teachout)
Yeah.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah. So 2001.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
I'm making stuff up because I don't remember
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
that far back. I'm guessing the culture around
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
deconversion and deconstruction looked a lot different than than it does. Now
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
I want to say Marlene Winnell's book came out, leaving the fold and maybe
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
1995 but that's me pulling a number off. The top of my head.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
And even when I deconverted a couple years ago, like I found a lot of
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
stuff after I deconverted, but not during like, it was it, when you're
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
in that Christian bubble, you're not aware of what else is out there. You're not supposed to
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(David Teachout)
No.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
be aware, that's the point. So what was it? Like, kind of your it, you're in
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Bible college. You're surrounded by all these Christians who are serious about their Christianity because
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
they're Christian, they're a Bible college. What was it kind of like, you know,
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
2001 Time of Being That person who's deconverting
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(David Teachout)
Yeah, no good question and it's, it's
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(David Teachout)
seriousness. The there
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(David Teachout)
were many people. I mean, it was an interesting at the time, the
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(David Teachout)
Bible College had like 200 students
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(David Teachout)
total my graduating class in high school was bigger than that. And
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Sure. Yeah.
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(David Teachout)
so, it was an interesting experience of coming into this
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(David Teachout)
small town or a small campus. They now have well over
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(David Teachout)
1,000, and they've changed over to a university. They're doing really well,
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(David Teachout)
and really all powerful. I'm still in contact with some of the, you know, a couple of professors
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
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(David Teachout)
and, and appreciate the time that I had there. So it was
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(David Teachout)
transformative in many ways. Just not necessarily in the
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(David Teachout)
ways that they necessarily would have wanted, but, you know, here it is. So
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
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(David Teachout)
you know, he was
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(David Teachout)
And you know, at the
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(David Teachout)
time had been doing a lot of studies into philosophy and you know,
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(David Teachout)
how do people, you know, evolution science and and
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(David Teachout)
you know, just everything and more of apologetic literature.
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(David Teachout)
and, you know, it had, you know,
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(David Teachout)
there was a group of us that were, you know, doing like a philosophy, study group, kind of thing, just having fun
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(David Teachout)
learning out about various things and then 9/11
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(David Teachout)
hit and basically
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(David Teachout)
found myself going Well, Islam must be wrong.
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(David Teachout)
Clearly, you know, because, you know, here's here's what in
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(David Teachout)
spite, you know, this is a inspiration, some version of it anyway and
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Sure.
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(David Teachout)
so started delving into it a bit more and going. Okay, here's my arguments
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(David Teachout)
against it. And then quickly found out
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(David Teachout)
that so many of the arguments that I was using against
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(David Teachout)
them, or at least that ideology and it's
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(David Teachout)
basically it's fundamentalist forms and were ones that I could use easily
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(David Teachout)
against then Christianity. And I'm like, well,
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
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(David Teachout)
Oops. Now, what do I do? And
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
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(David Teachout)
again with the philosophy, you know at that point had
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(David Teachout)
already gone away from a very literal interpretation
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(David Teachout)
of the so-called Bible and and
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(David Teachout)
because he had delve into science and evolution was like, Okay so Genesis
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(David Teachout)
doesn't work. So what do we do? And eventually it was
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(David Teachout)
really a primary book. George
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(David Teachout)
H Smith his book, The Case Against God, which I
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(David Teachout)
still highly recommend to anybody and like 50 pages in
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(David Teachout)
Like the Foundation Everybody Laid and then I read
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(David Teachout)
it like 50 pages and I'm like, well, I'm out.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
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(David Teachout)
It's like this is done, but really Like, I don't
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(David Teachout)
remember when that book was published. I had no idea who
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(David Teachout)
when Al was, I didn't encounter her until years later.
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(David Teachout)
And from A, she gave a presentation
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(David Teachout)
actually forget what groups she was with, but,
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(David Teachout)
yeah, it had no idea. I mean, pretty much it was
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(David Teachout)
just like, well, Now what
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
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(David Teachout)
I need to figure out who I am and
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(David Teachout)
meaning and purpose, and ethics and
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(David Teachout)
relationships, and how will that works and
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(David Teachout)
sexuality. And like I mean it's just like we I mean
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(David Teachout)
because it was the you know,
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(David Teachout)
I was conservative enough that you know was was not
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(David Teachout)
quite welcome in youth groups and churches, I mean it was
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(David Teachout)
a joke. Now that was like to the right of Attila the Hun. I mean
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Sure.
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(David Teachout)
it's fundamentalism. It was James Dobson, all the
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(David Teachout)
way and
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
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(David Teachout)
Franklin was a jerk. I really just face it was quite quite the
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(David Teachout)
ass on more than a one occasion and
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(David Teachout)
and so, we're doing some reflection on that like being able to reflect back
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:10:52.000 --> 00:10:56.000
(David Teachout)
and just kind of go. Well, Who do I now want to be when this
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(David Teachout)
was encouraged me, encouraging me in a certain way to express
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(David Teachout)
this and look at people as in a very black and
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(David Teachout)
white subverse them. You know the world
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(David Teachout)
is against me you know kind of mentality and
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(David Teachout)
not wanting anything to do with that ever. Again because
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:20.000
(David Teachout)
humanity was well and still is quite a bit bigger
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(David Teachout)
than you know that very narrow fundamentalist kind of thinking.
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(David Teachout)
And so that was the that was the journey
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(David Teachout)
and still on it really. But
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:11:32.000 --> 00:11:36.000
(David Teachout)
but it was just figuring out. So Lots of philosophy.
00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:40.000
(David Teachout)
Lots of, you know, off the beaten
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(David Teachout)
paths like work studying other religions seeing
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(David Teachout)
what was up having experiences that, you know, there was no
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(David Teachout)
way I was going to when I was a believer. Ver and, you know,
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah. Right.
00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:56.000
(David Teachout)
just kind of going. All right, what's next? Who do I want to be?
00:11:56.000 --> 00:12:00.000
(David Teachout)
so,
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah. So how, how was that
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
pairing of then going on to like grad school and study psychology at
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
a deeper level? How did that kind of fit with? Almost like rebuilding
00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:12.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
your identity of like okay I'm not a Christian anymore. Now
00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:16.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
what and then at the same time sounds like you're studying a lot of like counseling and psychology.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
The forensic side of things too. Like how did those kind of pair together?
00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:24.000
(David Teachout)
Yeah. So You know, it counseling
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(David Teachout)
seem to be like an easy route in some ways, you know it's like Well this is just
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(David Teachout)
an extension of being a pastor and had already studied like Christian
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(David Teachout)
psychology and Christian therapy and like how this works. Well okay. I like some of it but
00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:40.000
(David Teachout)
not you know, some of the more basic stuff like You know, you know
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(David Teachout)
the caricature is always is often made of well,
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(David Teachout)
you know, Christian therapist needs
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:12:52.000 --> 00:12:56.000
(David Teachout)
therapy for a reason but there are a fair number of D.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yes.
00:12:56.000 --> 00:13:00.000
(David Teachout)
Really decent. Therapist needs.
00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:04.000
00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:08.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right.
00:13:08.000 --> 00:13:12.000
(David Teachout)
Well, normal. So,
00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:16.000
(David Teachout)
you know, just so And it's like Okay
00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:20.000
(David Teachout)
well what do I want to do? So, you know encountered You
00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:24.000
(David Teachout)
know started getting any into Daniel Siegel Owen Flanagan
00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:28.000
(David Teachout)
is still somebody that I go back to
00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:32.000
(David Teachout)
frequently Eric from, you know, definitely when
00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:36.000
(David Teachout)
down the, you know, Freud psychodynamic rabbit hole for a little bit, when
00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:40.000
(David Teachout)
this is a little nuts. But you know what I want to do with it from was
00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:44.000
(David Teachout)
definitely one that is is still actually
00:13:44.000 --> 00:13:48.000
(David Teachout)
influential. And, you know, so figuring out,
00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:52.000
(David Teachout)
you know, those things, you know,
00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:56.000
(David Teachout)
navigating, okay. I want to go to a traditional school program. So
00:13:56.000 --> 00:14:00.000
(David Teachout)
our guess the university did this like weekend program
00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:04.000
(David Teachout)
thing, where you could go to work full time and then
00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:08.000
(David Teachout)
go to this weekend thing, like once things, like once a month,
00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:12.000
(David Teachout)
and it was like eight hour days, three days, you know, Friday, Saturday, Sunday
00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:16.000
(David Teachout)
once a month. Yeah, like, okay, I can do this like this, this work. And
00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:20.000
(David Teachout)
work through that and had some,
00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:24.000
(David Teachout)
you know, personal difficulties that resulted in kind of taking a break
00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:28.000
(David Teachout)
during that break went and got a master's in the forensics. Like
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Hmm.
00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:32.000
(David Teachout)
Maybe I want to go this round and loved it
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Sure.
00:14:32.000 --> 00:14:36.000
(David Teachout)
and still do you know, some of the things I learned
00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:40.000
(David Teachout)
there have really been helpful
00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:44.000
(David Teachout)
and then because I really, really hate leading things unfinished. I
00:14:44.000 --> 00:14:48.000
(David Teachout)
came back and, and finished it up, you know, the part the
00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:52.000
(David Teachout)
mental health program and as a consequence,
00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:56.000
(David Teachout)
you know, did a lot of, you know, jobs here, and there working with
00:14:56.000 --> 00:15:00.000
(David Teachout)
again, kids and elderly did that for a few years.
00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:04.000
(David Teachout)
You know, that's one of those things where
00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:08.000
(David Teachout)
usually will tell, you know, people who are just getting into the profession that if you
00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:12.000
(David Teachout)
want to do boundaries you really want to work on what is going to
00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:16.000
(David Teachout)
push your buttons and so on to start mixing met. Was a
00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:20.000
(David Teachout)
bit but you know, you work at an inpatient facility.
00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:24.000
(David Teachout)
Like, just go go work somewhere like that.
00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:28.000
(David Teachout)
You Will have every button you didn't even know
00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:32.000
(David Teachout)
existed punched sometimes literally
00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:36.000
(David Teachout)
and you know and you you'll experience mean
00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:40.000
(David Teachout)
most terribly medical issues. There were over a
00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:44.000
(David Teachout)
dozen people that I knew over the course of three years. Patients who died.
00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:48.000
(David Teachout)
And a couple of them, those at their bedside. And
00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:52.000
(David Teachout)
it's a It's still something, they
00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:56.000
(David Teachout)
just you don't get used to it's not anything I'd ever want to get used to.
00:15:56.000 --> 00:16:00.000
(David Teachout)
And it does make
00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:04.000
(David Teachout)
you. If you're at all reflective, it doesn't make you question. Like Okay,
00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:08.000
(David Teachout)
what's really going on here? And just because I left Christianity,
00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:12.000
(David Teachout)
doesn't mean it had left me. And so, you know, figuring out,
00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:16.000
(David Teachout)
what is my role here? What it's
00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:20.000
(David Teachout)
inevitable, then that questions of soul and meaning and
00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:24.000
(David Teachout)
What's happening right now is this person
00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:28.000
(David Teachout)
quite fully takes their last breath and you hold their hand
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right. Yeah.
00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:32.000
(David Teachout)
and what is that difference between being
00:16:32.000 --> 00:16:36.000
(David Teachout)
alive and being dead? And what are you doing with that
00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:40.000
(David Teachout)
and still don't have an advances on that still
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:16:40.000 --> 00:16:44.000
(David Teachout)
probably never will but It
00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:48.000
(David Teachout)
informed. I mean, it was I literally I've been hit more times
00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:52.000
(David Teachout)
than I cared to remember. I had to testify a couple of
00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:56.000
(David Teachout)
times had, you know, feces thrown at me. I mean,
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:16:56.000 --> 00:17:00.000
(David Teachout)
you know, you just you encounter so many things.
00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:04.000
(David Teachout)
It particularly in an impression facility that
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
which,
00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:08.000
(David Teachout)
he just really find yourself going. I'm either
00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:12.000
(David Teachout)
one gonna stick with this profession or really out
00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:16.000
(David Teachout)
and Yeah, you figure out what you stand for.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:17:16.000 --> 00:17:20.000
(David Teachout)
You come, you come very quickly to recognize that
00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:24.000
(David Teachout)
your perspective. However, right, you may think of it as
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Okay.
00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:28.000
(David Teachout)
because, of course, we wouldn't hold it if we didn't think it was right
00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:32.000
(David Teachout)
is Just doesn't matter
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:36.000
(David Teachout)
in many circumstances. I mean, it just you dealing with psychosis.
00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:40.000
(David Teachout)
It doesn't matter. If you understand what's going on. It doesn't matter
00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:44.000
(David Teachout)
that, you know, what reality is. You're
00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:48.000
(David Teachout)
still going to sit there and stomp out the imaginary
00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:52.000
(David Teachout)
snakes. You're still gonna put yourself in a position
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:56.000
(David Teachout)
where they feel a sense of empowerment over you.
00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:00.000
(David Teachout)
Not because you agree but because it helps them continue on
00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:04.000
(David Teachout)
with their, you know, medical treatment and you're like, Okay, this is,
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:08.000
(David Teachout)
this is what I do. And it's Yeah, you
00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:12.000
(David Teachout)
don't come out of that situation, you know going? Yeah. I'm
00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:16.000
(David Teachout)
right. And they're wrong and let's, you know, keep pushing the
00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:20.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah. Well and it's it's interesting. There's two things I want to touch on
00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:24.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
there. One is the existential questions, kind of not mattering.
00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:28.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
I think that's a faster at any topic, but but from a professional standpoint as a
00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:32.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
therapist needs,
00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:36.000
00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:40.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Shelter. When I started out and it was one of those things where like I fell in
00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:44.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
love with postmodern therapies and I love narrative therapy and
00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:48.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
I'm doing like narrative therapy with these people are homeless and I'm like, What the f*** am
00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:52.000
(David Teachout)
No.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
I doing? Like this isn't helping them like, this isn't relevant to where they're
00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:56.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
like they need a job and they're like fighting for their kids
00:18:56.000 --> 00:19:00.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
custody and I'm like trying to re-author their story with them. Like
00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:04.000
(David Teachout)
Right.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
This is not what I want to be doing. So I think on the
00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:08.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
professional side of things it kind of like tests, you know, you have this loose
00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:12.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
grasp of Is in therapy. What
00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:16.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
techniques and what kind of like school of thought you're drawing from and it really tests
00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:20.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
a lot of that stuff to be like Oh yeah like which of this is actually
00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:24.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
genuinely going to fit for your style of work in which of it is great in
00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:28.000
(David Teachout)
Right,
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
a textbook and kind of awful in the therapy room.
00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:32.000
(David Teachout)
yeah, no hands down. And that's, you know, it's a,
00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:36.000
(David Teachout)
it's always the Internet, every time, you know, it go through the story of
00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:40.000
(David Teachout)
like, who did things work like, you know, you in, which is
00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:44.000
(David Teachout)
also then part of narrative therapy is figuring out like one story, never
00:19:44.000 --> 00:19:48.000
(David Teachout)
encapsulates, the whole of an experience, that's
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right. Right.
00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:52.000
(David Teachout)
what's great about humanity. That's what's great about our brains, it's like, we
00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:56.000
(David Teachout)
can always figure out. Like, Here's a different perspective
00:19:56.000 --> 00:20:00.000
(David Teachout)
that take and you're gonna find new things. And And it was,
00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:04.000
(David Teachout)
you know, the combination of like leaving such a
00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:08.000
(David Teachout)
dogmatic ideology. And
00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:12.000
(David Teachout)
within a few years, you know, getting
00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:16.000
(David Teachout)
involved in that kind of work environment, where
00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:20.000
(David Teachout)
certainty was more easily
00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:24.000
(David Teachout)
associated with psychosis, because the person who believes
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Mm-hmm.
00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:28.000
(David Teachout)
that they are, in fact, the president, and yet and
00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:32.000
(David Teachout)
the staff, we need to make sure that when the president was actually giving an address
00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:36.000
(David Teachout)
that they were not in the room because they were going to have, you know, a fit
00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:40.000
(David Teachout)
you like, Questions of what is
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right.
00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:44.000
(David Teachout)
right and what is real get thrown out the
00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:48.000
(David Teachout)
window for pure functionality. And I love that
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:52.000
(David Teachout)
story about, you know, narrative therapy with homeless. That is priceless.
00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:56.000
(David Teachout)
Because you're right. Think What the hell am I doing here?
00:20:56.000 --> 00:21:00.000
(David Teachout)
Like What would these people need?
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
yeah, and I was, I was I
00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:04.000
(David Teachout)
Help. You know.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
was 20 years old, I was, I graduated early. So, like, I'm young
00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:08.000
(David Teachout)
Oh yeah.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
look, young don't know what I'm doing yet, like just
00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:12.000
(David Teachout)
Yeah.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
figuring it out, reading these like, half philosophy, half
00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:16.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
therapy, books, and fall in, love with it, and then I go to my internship, like I can't use any of
00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:20.000
(David Teachout)
No. No. It really. It's yeah. Well
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
that.
00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:24.000
(David Teachout)
and as It's where like everybody or
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:28.000
(David Teachout)
most, you know, it's like most people get involved in, you know, you have,
00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:32.000
(David Teachout)
you know, you you have your, your Hollywood
00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:36.000
(David Teachout)
esque versions of therapy and it's been forensic
00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:40.000
(David Teachout)
field. I mean, you have criminal minds amongst others. You know, when the
00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:44.000
(David Teachout)
TV shows, I swear in one of my classes in that
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:48.000
(David Teachout)
program, somebody actually asked like use
00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:52.000
(David Teachout)
criminal minds as a legitimate way of discussing a matter, and
00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:56.000
(David Teachout)
I was so disgusted. It's like, No, we
00:21:56.000 --> 00:22:00.000
(David Teachout)
are not going to be gallivanting around the United States. And, you know,
00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:04.000
(David Teachout)
Dual engine says that with a bunch of gorgeous people. Like this is not
00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:08.000
(David Teachout)
our job. It's primarily gonna be paperwork and boring. And
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:12.000
(David Teachout)
Professor actually wrote me, like, Please, I
00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:16.000
(David Teachout)
appreciate the comments, but please leave the sarcasm, like, Okay.
00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:20.000
(David Teachout)
Just like, you know, none of this. You know,
00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:24.000
(David Teachout)
where theory meets reality? You know, we
00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:28.000
(David Teachout)
can, you know, think so many things and
00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:32.000
(David Teachout)
essentially, mentally and emotionally masturbate our way
00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:36.000
(David Teachout)
into thinking, we're amazing. And
00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:40.000
(David Teachout)
the reality is we're still figuring all this stuff out
00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:44.000
(David Teachout)
as well. Does it mean? That the
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Mm-hmm.
00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:48.000
(David Teachout)
studies useless. Oh no. I'm gonna be the last person to say that
00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:52.000
(David Teachout)
at the same token being aware of some of the basics. It's
00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:56.000
(David Teachout)
why behaviorism eventually became such a big, you know,
00:22:56.000 --> 00:23:00.000
(David Teachout)
source for me because the ABCs, you know, it's just
00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:04.000
(David Teachout)
an behavioral consequence. You don't have to go
00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:08.000
(David Teachout)
too much deeper than that with most people,
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:12.000
(David Teachout)
it's like Identify. What's important
00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:16.000
(David Teachout)
Identify then how you're sowing a behaviorally for it and then take a look at
00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:20.000
(David Teachout)
Are these the consequences you've got to. You want to keep living in with life
00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:24.000
(David Teachout)
if they're not. Well then let's back up and
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right.
00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:28.000
(David Teachout)
see what changes we can make. If they are, Then I guess
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:32.000
(David Teachout)
we don't have anything to talk about like What else are we like? What else is going on?
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:36.000
(David Teachout)
I mean it's really it doesn't have to be the more complicated and it doesn't mean
00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:40.000
(David Teachout)
that we are sitting here as
00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:44.000
(David Teachout)
Gurus of you, you know, life and meaning either.
00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:48.000
(David Teachout)
I mean, what was it? The just the other day.
00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:52.000
(David Teachout)
you know, I still follow a bunch of, you know, Psych Twitter is is a
00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:56.000
(David Teachout)
fascinating, very bizarre world and
00:23:56.000 --> 00:24:00.000
(David Teachout)
the psychodynamic group in particular
00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:04.000
(David Teachout)
seem to have never quite left,
00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:08.000
(David Teachout)
the arrogance of Freud behind and one
00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:12.000
(David Teachout)
who otherwise, a generally respect, you know, I mentioned something around the lines like
00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:16.000
(David Teachout)
well, you know, Therapist.
00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:24.000
00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:28.000
(David Teachout)
Needs therapy.
00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:32.000
(David Teachout)
Or are you now like a
00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:36.000
(David Teachout)
surrogate priest or wise person?
00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:40.000
(David Teachout)
in in, is that really what we want to step into or
00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:44.000
(David Teachout)
try to think how
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:48.000
(David Teachout)
It just, it, it rubs me. I understand, it's
00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:52.000
(David Teachout)
undoubtedly due to my own background. I get that. But
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:56.000
(David Teachout)
really, we probably should be questioning. Like I have a
00:24:56.000 --> 00:25:00.000
(David Teachout)
standard thing of like, in any of my own like anytime I start with
00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:04.000
(David Teachout)
a new client or patient, Whatever, you know,
00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:08.000
(David Teachout)
it's always about. I am not here to be here. Guru.
00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:12.000
(David Teachout)
I am not here to,
00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:16.000
(David Teachout)
you know, it you figure out and teach you the ways.
00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:20.000
(David Teachout)
You know. Do I have a philosophy? Yes. Do I
00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:24.000
(David Teachout)
have, you know, way of looking at things? Based, on
00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:28.000
(David Teachout)
years of study? Sure. Am I here to have you
00:25:28.000 --> 00:25:32.000
(David Teachout)
agree with me entirely. Oh God no. Yeah, I'm not sure if I agree with everything I
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right.
00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:36.000
(David Teachout)
think right now like that's part of the whole process. Yeah. As we get it a couple
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Ask me again and ask me again in two years and
00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:40.000
(David Teachout)
years. Odds are. Yeah, I mean and so
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
I'll have a different answer.
00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:44.000
(David Teachout)
in the idea then it's like one of my goals is to
00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:48.000
(David Teachout)
have that person eventually not need to talk
00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:52.000
(David Teachout)
to me as much. Like if we're still talking about the same thing,
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yep.
00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:56.000
(David Teachout)
shoot even a year from now, I'm gonna
00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:00.000
(David Teachout)
start going. Well thank you for helping me. Pay my bills. But what
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:04.000
(David Teachout)
are you getting out of this like Is this turned into like your
00:26:04.000 --> 00:26:08.000
(David Teachout)
favorite bar that you go to and we chat about these things.
00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:12.000
(David Teachout)
It's not that those kind of conversations can't happen. But what is this really
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right.
00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:16.000
(David Teachout)
about? And the difficulty of,
00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:20.000
(David Teachout)
you know, building a practice that is based on. And I've heard this from
00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:24.000
(David Teachout)
many many therapist.
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:28.000
00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:32.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yep.
00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:36.000
(David Teachout)
Just
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yep.
00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:40.000
(David Teachout)
to not make any bones about it, just like, no, that that's not
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah. Yeah.
00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:44.000
(David Teachout)
therapy. That's a, you know,
00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:48.000
(David Teachout)
Hawaii, a malignant version of a codependent relationship
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
All right.
00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:52.000
(David Teachout)
masquerading under, you know, therapy like this. This is
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:56.000
(David Teachout)
Not good. So Yeah. Yeah. I don't
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah, that exploitation.
00:26:56.000 --> 00:27:00.000
(David Teachout)
get invited too many therapist.
00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:04.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
one of the things that I think, Is
00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:08.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
really fascinating and kind of going through that deconstruction work, while building up the
00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:12.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
therapy thing. You hinted at this earlier and I'm gonna go back to it, the idea of kind of
00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:16.000
(David Teachout)
Hmm.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
abandoning, what's right. And and right and wrong as a
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:20.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
paradigm, that I let go, pretty early because I was doing therapy, even though I
00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:24.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
grew up fundamentalist and I moved more liberal, but still stayed Christian for a long time
00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:28.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
and was like, Yeah, right or wrong isn't a helpful. Like I
00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:32.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
use helpful unhelpful in therapy because, right? Or wrong. It
00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:36.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
has next to know utility, but growing up. Fundamentalist like that is
00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:40.000
(David Teachout)
Right.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
what got drilled into me was right or wrong. Like this is there's
00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:44.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
a correct answer. There's truth capital t anything. That's why
00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:48.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
I fell in love with all those postmodern therapies because it was very freeing for me
00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:52.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
but that idea of like right or wrong. And I think there's a dogma in psychology as well
00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:56.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
around what what type of therapist?
00:27:56.000 --> 00:28:00.000
00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:04.000
(David Teachout)
Are.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Is
00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:08.000
(David Teachout)
Yeah.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
them. So I think, I think it's weird. There's, um, there's definitely some overlap.
00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:12.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
I think in that Venn diagram of rights and wrong, being a religious
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:16.000
(David Teachout)
Don't
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
idea and also being a therapy idea,
00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:20.000
(David Teachout)
hands down one in. I think it's a it's A It's
00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:24.000
(David Teachout)
a testament to just how our brains are built by
00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:28.000
(David Teachout)
evolution and history you know it's just like we
00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:32.000
(David Teachout)
I like to say that basically our brains are lazy like path of least
00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:36.000
(David Teachout)
resistance and if they can get to a goal and
00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:40.000
(David Teachout)
its goals are not necessarily about finding meaning and purpose.
00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:44.000
(David Teachout)
It's goals are Can we you know, find
00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:48.000
(David Teachout)
consistency long enough to
00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:52.000
(David Teachout)
basically you know, bring about the next generation? That's really,
00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:56.000
(David Teachout)
it's like, you know, that there's not a whole lot more to it, We
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:28:56.000 --> 00:29:00.000
(David Teachout)
add on to these things, which is astounding and
00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:04.000
(David Teachout)
beautiful, and amazing, and terrifying. And but
00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:08.000
(David Teachout)
at core like that's really all our brains one. They want consistency.
00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:12.000
(David Teachout)
And if we need to ignore some things and
00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:16.000
(David Teachout)
hyper, you know, focus on other things, then that's what it's gonna do
00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:20.000
(David Teachout)
in order to make sure that felt sense. So I know
00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:24.000
(David Teachout)
what the future holds for the next five, you know, minutes, five hours,
00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:28.000
(David Teachout)
five weeks. Five years. Like as long as I know that I'm gold
00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:32.000
(David Teachout)
like we're gonna keep on going and so anytime
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:36.000
(David Teachout)
that gets disrupted, Well what's the result? Well, all
00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:40.000
(David Teachout)
the sudden physiological arousal occurs. Like you know, let's get the things
00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:44.000
(David Teachout)
moving something's going wrong. We don't know what's going to happen next. What
00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:48.000
(David Teachout)
do we then experience that as anxiety? now
00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:52.000
(David Teachout)
that can, you know, happen in any number of ways and
00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:56.000
(David Teachout)
it's the being able to step in
00:29:56.000 --> 00:30:00.000
(David Teachout)
and recognize that these
00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:04.000
(David Teachout)
Emotional experiences are not
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:08.000
(David Teachout)
an indication of something terrible or
00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:12.000
(David Teachout)
wrong or sinful is occurring anymore than
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:16.000
(David Teachout)
joy. And happiness is a sign of things going, right?
00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:20.000
(David Teachout)
Or being good is they're just
00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:24.000
(David Teachout)
knee, jerky valuations that are
00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:28.000
(David Teachout)
He almost always wrong. At least
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:32.000
(David Teachout)
in part if not entirely and yet, we're
00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:36.000
(David Teachout)
gonna have them, nobody's choosing them. And it's not
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right.
00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:40.000
(David Teachout)
like we're sitting around, you know, going, I think I'm gonna have this thought or this
00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:44.000
(David Teachout)
emotion next. They just freaking show up. Now what do we do with them?
00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:48.000
(David Teachout)
And yeah the whole right and wrong as like
00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:52.000
(David Teachout)
capital right and wrong like it's not it's not getting rid of
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:30:52.000 --> 00:30:56.000
(David Teachout)
morality it's just going this is a lot more malleable
00:30:56.000 --> 00:31:00.000
(David Teachout)
and uncertain. Then
00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:04.000
(David Teachout)
certainly fundamentalist versions of religion, and quite frankly,
00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:08.000
(David Teachout)
certain elements of, you know, secular ideologies. Also, you know,
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right.
00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:12.000
(David Teachout)
promote and it's like it's just not that simple. Nothing is and it's
00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:16.000
(David Teachout)
a good thing. It isn't because life would be really boring
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:20.000
(David Teachout)
at the very least, who were
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah. I'm curious.
00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:24.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
This is unplanned question. Not that I plan a lot out but
00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:28.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
you talk about the fascination on the law side of things.
00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:32.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Do you think that ties, it all back to being raised and kind of a
00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:36.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
fundamentalist environment and having kind of that like Probably
00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:40.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
legalistic sin, things are sinful, things are right and wrong
00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:44.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
capital letters. There is that do you think that's at all related?
00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:48.000
(David Teachout)
Huge. Yeah, no I mean it if any what's
00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:52.000
(David Teachout)
what's interesting is this time go has gone on you know if
00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:56.000
(David Teachout)
Learned to appreciate certain aspects
00:31:56.000 --> 00:32:00.000
(David Teachout)
of having been raised that way, because there was a
00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:04.000
(David Teachout)
solidity to the fundamentalism.
00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:08.000
(David Teachout)
That said, reality still matters.
00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:12.000
(David Teachout)
That you can think any number of things
00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:16.000
(David Teachout)
but it doesn't change in that context. God's
00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:20.000
(David Teachout)
truth. but while,
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:24.000
(David Teachout)
While the particular object of that, you know I obviously I don't
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:28.000
(David Teachout)
believe anymore I'm having for 20 years now you know,
00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:32.000
(David Teachout)
while that I don't agree with. the idea that
00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:36.000
(David Teachout)
reality doesn't give a s*** about what my thoughts and emotions are that
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:40.000
(David Teachout)
it's bigger that it doesn't conform to
00:32:40.000 --> 00:32:44.000
(David Teachout)
that I am at best A
00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:48.000
(David Teachout)
Very integradations of
00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:52.000
(David Teachout)
nuance effects. Emily of what I'm seeing, you know,
00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:56.000
(David Teachout)
can't, you know, comes to mind here. I mean, it's just like we try our best
00:32:56.000 --> 00:33:00.000
(David Teachout)
to make sense of things. And we never fit everything
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:04.000
(David Teachout)
and that's okay. And so any
00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:08.000
(David Teachout)
But it but it's still meant that there was still something we could
00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:12.000
(David Teachout)
work with together. There was still something
00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:16.000
(David Teachout)
that all of us still had to struggle with And
00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:20.000
(David Teachout)
even if we never quite got to what it is
00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:24.000
(David Teachout)
entirely that was part of the struggle was to understand
00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:28.000
(David Teachout)
things better. You know it was one of those you know even as a believer I was
00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:32.000
(David Teachout)
like well and what kind of led me to leave it and was this notion of
00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:36.000
(David Teachout)
like Well if all truth is from God, then any,
00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:40.000
(David Teachout)
you know, pursuit of truth? Should me be like back to Him, right?
00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:44.000
(David Teachout)
Right. No, but
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Now yeah.
00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:48.000
(David Teachout)
but there is the principle. I mean, it was just like, you know, this should still, this should
00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:52.000
(David Teachout)
still work and it's still. Now, I mean, any time I encounter
00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:56.000
(David Teachout)
something where her like, well you have to, you know, this is the
00:33:56.000 --> 00:34:00.000
(David Teachout)
school that you must belong to, you know, any kind of dogmatism, any
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:04.000
(David Teachout)
kind of, you know, limitation of defining people
00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:08.000
(David Teachout)
by a single characteristic. I just sit there and go, then there
00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:12.000
(David Teachout)
done that. It was awful and I'm not going to go
00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:16.000
(David Teachout)
there again, so yeah.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah. yeah, I think
00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:20.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
it's it's interesting I worked at When
00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:24.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
I worked at a homeless shelter, we had a high number of people who were in high control,
00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:28.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
religious groups, like Jehovah's Witness and seeing
00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:32.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
seeing how The rigidity
00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:36.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
of those religious structures helped people temporarily
00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:40.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
and then I think they became a hindrance as people got healthier. But for a while
00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:44.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
I think those high control groups can be helpful. I had
00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:48.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
undiagnosed ADHD growing up. I know that there's a certain aspect of the black and white
00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:52.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
thinking related to fundamentalism that my brain, like just
00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:56.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
loved like, I loved telling people, they were wrong.
00:34:56.000 --> 00:35:00.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
I love selling people why this verse meant, this thing,
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:04.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
and not what you are trying to make. Like there's and right, you talk about being
00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:08.000
(David Teachout)
Yeah.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
an a****** sometimes and that Christian world, like, I was too, I like the
00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:12.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
right or wrong when I could use it, like, when I could use my brain
00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:16.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
power and that was the thing with ADHD, like it came with with a high level of processing
00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:20.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
speed for me. So, I was reading stupid stuff like I was not a healthy
00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:24.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
teenager. I was reading, you know, pastoral dissertations, when I was in high school
00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:28.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
so that I could argue with my high school, religion teacher like it
00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:32.000
(David Teachout)
oh,
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
wasn't. You know, that was my rebellious. Days.
00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:36.000
(David Teachout)
we would have been either really good friends or mortal enemies
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
so, Probably.
00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:40.000
(David Teachout)
like it probably
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Probably hated each other. Yeah. But I
00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:44.000
(David Teachout)
You know.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
remember I was in high school. I went to private school. both my parents are teachers and
00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:48.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
work at the private school and so I was, you know, I was arguing with the
00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:52.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
philosophy teacher but not like questioning Religion,
00:35:52.000 --> 00:35:56.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
but questioning you know how come you're not letting the study nichi or
00:35:56.000 --> 00:36:00.000
(David Teachout)
All right.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
why are we reading Voltaire? He was in love with an eight year old like, you know, I was
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:04.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
I was being that rebellious kind of edgy teenager instill. This
00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:08.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
very like approved small box of
00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:12.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
worldview but definitely look back on it and say like Oh yeah like that kept me functional
00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:16.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
at no one was aware of my ADHD because I got good grades. The
00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:20.000
(David Teachout)
Know,
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
fact that I was out of my desk every hour. No one seems to care as long as I was getting
00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:24.000
(David Teachout)
we're back. Yeah.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
good grades. And so it was one of those things where like I can look back and kind of
00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:28.000
(David Teachout)
Hmm.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
what you're saying, like, appreciate some of it, I don't view that. As healthy for me, I wish I
00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:32.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
would have gotten diagnosed earlier and not gone to practice school,
00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:36.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
but but it's also one of those aspects of like, Yeah, definitely there's religion,
00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:40.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
didn't create these issues, religion, addresses, issues that exist
00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:44.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
in kind of the human psyche. Like these in group out group
00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:48.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
bias that we have, like, religion is An answer and
00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:52.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
incorrect one, but an answer to that but it's a bias that exists in all of us like That's how
00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:56.000
(David Teachout)
just,
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
our brain is wired. Religion didn't create that. It just responds to it.
00:36:56.000 --> 00:37:00.000
(David Teachout)
Yep. And we're not going to get rid of it. I mean, it's we don't get rid of
00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:04.000
(David Teachout)
any of our biases, you know, at the, at the
00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:08.000
(David Teachout)
core of like cognitive heuristic, you know, basic ways of
00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:12.000
(David Teachout)
framing the world, we're not going to change our biology. We're
00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:16.000
(David Teachout)
not gonna change millions of years of evolutionary history, like
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right.
00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:20.000
(David Teachout)
this isn't gonna stop in anybody who, you know,
00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:24.000
(David Teachout)
it's both the strength and the weakness of, for
00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:28.000
(David Teachout)
instance, You know, cognitive behavioral therapy, you know. It's, you know it
00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:32.000
(David Teachout)
it's just thematically tries to point these things out.
00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:36.000
(David Teachout)
And essentially, I kind of look at CBT is basically a clinical
00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:40.000
(David Teachout)
version of a really nice. Logic course, You know, it's like,
00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:44.000
(David Teachout)
really, what's going on? Is just going, listen, Black and white thinking
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:48.000
(David Teachout)
is not helpful as in There is more to life than a
00:37:48.000 --> 00:37:52.000
(David Teachout)
is not a, You know, he's just like really it's just applying logic
00:37:52.000 --> 00:37:56.000
(David Teachout)
and philosophy to kind of relation and
00:37:56.000 --> 00:38:00.000
(David Teachout)
Where where it goes into a problem?
00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:04.000
(David Teachout)
Is the underlying still assumed premise that
00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:08.000
(David Teachout)
our thoughts are synonymous with reality?
00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:12.000
(David Teachout)
And and further of course that our thoughts
00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:16.000
(David Teachout)
missing is still being taught you know, by many is that
00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:20.000
(David Teachout)
our thoughts and create our emotional experiences, okay? Actually neurologically. It's the opposite but
00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:24.000
(David Teachout)
whatever and so you know it's just false and
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right. Yeah.
00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:28.000
(David Teachout)
so you know you get a lot of
00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:32.000
(David Teachout)
where the techniques are helpful. In one
00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:36.000
(David Teachout)
way. but if you're not attacking the
00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:40.000
(David Teachout)
underlying assumptions that are themselves, some of those
00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:44.000
(David Teachout)
basic biases that we have, Well,
00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:48.000
(David Teachout)
you know, continue to possess due to being Homo sapiens in
00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:52.000
(David Teachout)
this middle world of physics, you know, it's like,
00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:56.000
(David Teachout)
you know, unless you're willing to admit, wait a minute,
00:38:56.000 --> 00:39:00.000
(David Teachout)
my thoughts. Are a
00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:04.000
(David Teachout)
attempt. At making sense of things.
00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:08.000
(David Teachout)
Then and are not
00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:12.000
(David Teachout)
you know intrinsically me or holy
00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:16.000
(David Teachout)
I can have all sorts of thoughts and Discard them, ignore them,
00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:20.000
(David Teachout)
forget them, have have them be nothing, you know, in my life
00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:24.000
(David Teachout)
that's okay, there's the freedom of it. But but
00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:28.000
(David Teachout)
then again, that goes against that kind of
00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:32.000
(David Teachout)
fundamentalist, you know, which I think is more actually did a,
00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:36.000
(David Teachout)
did a presentation on this for for
00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:40.000
(David Teachout)
recovering, from religion, like, a year ago on how fundamentalism is
00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:44.000
(David Teachout)
a basic psychological bias that we all
00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:48.000
(David Teachout)
struggle with and the, the idea that I have found
00:39:48.000 --> 00:39:52.000
(David Teachout)
the truth, Is really enticing,
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:56.000
(David Teachout)
especially if it allows us to.
00:39:56.000 --> 00:40:00.000
(David Teachout)
Cohere within a group and feel
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:04.000
(David Teachout)
like we belong and that we have a sense of purpose and
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:08.000
(David Teachout)
if we adhere to it longer then we can rise in the
00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:12.000
(David Teachout)
ranks of, you know, the group feeling then Hey you know,
00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:16.000
(David Teachout)
that's great and finalizes kind of look at it
00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:20.000
(David Teachout)
and go been there, done that. It was awful.
00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:24.000
(David Teachout)
We don't need to rehash this again.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:28.000
(David Teachout)
Thank you.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
So, pivoting a little bit kind of
00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:32.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
as you're practicing. Now you have this experience. One of the
00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:36.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
things you work with is religious trauma which is one of my specialties as well.
00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:40.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
How how is the shared experience of like you've been there done that
00:40:40.000 --> 00:40:44.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
it sucks but also like being able to then meet clients kind of where they're
00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:48.000
(David Teachout)
I
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
at. How is that been helpful to you?
00:40:48.000 --> 00:40:52.000
(David Teachout)
quite I mean being able to you know, slot versus
00:40:52.000 --> 00:40:56.000
(David Teachout)
to you know to to then be able to take
00:40:56.000 --> 00:41:00.000
(David Teachout)
it from the academic to the overly
00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:04.000
(David Teachout)
used but still powerful concept of lived experience, you know, it's just like to
00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:08.000
(David Teachout)
bond over like yeah. No. This this was
00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:12.000
(David Teachout)
awful. And there are still nights on occasion that I go.
00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:16.000
(David Teachout)
Well crap, it'll exists. This is gonna suck. I mean, it's just like,
00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:20.000
(David Teachout)
and it's still there and it's likely never gonna go away for, you know, fully
00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:24.000
(David Teachout)
and the other person and being able to go you get it.
00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:28.000
(David Teachout)
This wasn't just an abdication.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:32.000
(David Teachout)
This was an identity struggle and still
00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:36.000
(David Teachout)
is and so by and large most have
00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:40.000
(David Teachout)
Deeply appreciated it. And and
00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:44.000
(David Teachout)
then it is well by taking it out of
00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:48.000
(David Teachout)
the you know, this strictly
00:41:48.000 --> 00:41:52.000
(David Teachout)
academic, you know, it allowed for, you know, some exploration of
00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:56.000
(David Teachout)
things, for instance, some
00:41:56.000 --> 00:42:00.000
(David Teachout)
you know, you know, for instance, the idea that
00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:04.000
(David Teachout)
well, now that you've left, you know, this religion, whatever, maybe
00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:08.000
(David Teachout)
Whether you're now going to have to figure out what your ethic is.
00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:12.000
(David Teachout)
And what meaning is and purpose, which is where I started,
00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:16.000
(David Teachout)
like, you're really like, I figure this out. Our thought I did.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:20.000
(David Teachout)
And there's recently just in the last couple years,
00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:24.000
(David Teachout)
really finally dawn of me that I'd fallen for one of the most
00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:28.000
(David Teachout)
amazingly complex gaslighting techniques
00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:32.000
(David Teachout)
I've ever encountered because the reality is, wait a minute if this was
00:42:32.000 --> 00:42:36.000
(David Teachout)
never right. To begin with. If this
00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:40.000
(David Teachout)
deity, never existed. Then who's been
00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:44.000
(David Teachout)
saying what is right and wrong and deciding, who is meaningful
00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:48.000
(David Teachout)
and what is purposeful all along. Alright me.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:52.000
(David Teachout)
I'm the one that has been deciding this this whole time
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Mm-hmm.
00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:56.000
(David Teachout)
which means I don't have to rewrite
00:42:56.000 --> 00:43:00.000
(David Teachout)
all of my ethics. I don't have to build from
00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:04.000
(David Teachout)
scratch, meaning and purpose. I have to look at what
00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:08.000
(David Teachout)
was my core desires and what was
00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:12.000
(David Teachout)
I trying to pursue? Wild jettisoning.
00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:16.000
(David Teachout)
Some of the will obviously false guesswork that I've been handed
00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:20.000
(David Teachout)
and thought was true but you don't have to start from scratch. And
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:24.000
(David Teachout)
that's what I encounter a lot with people even in other some therapist
00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:32.000
00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:36.000
(David Teachout)
needs
00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:48.000
00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:52.000
(David Teachout)
therapy we
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:56.000
(David Teachout)
can start with well us. We can start with a shared
00:43:56.000 --> 00:44:00.000
(David Teachout)
humanity, we can start with the fact that we're trying to figure out how you and I
00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:04.000
(David Teachout)
in a really, and There's you know and
00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:08.000
(David Teachout)
there's where amazingly you start being able to look back
00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:12.000
(David Teachout)
and go, you know what? It wasn't all bad. They were aspects
00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:16.000
(David Teachout)
of this, obviously not with all the, you know, the hanger ons,
00:44:16.000 --> 00:44:20.000
(David Teachout)
but there were aspects of it. Where
00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:24.000
(David Teachout)
certainly given the fact that Christianity like all religions
00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:28.000
(David Teachout)
are it's not just one thing, you know, it's like, you know, I can
00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:32.000
(David Teachout)
pick and choose them from some of these other things. Maybe even look at
00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:36.000
(David Teachout)
You know, certain, you know, probably more
00:44:36.000 --> 00:44:40.000
(David Teachout)
liberal, but still, you know, bit more off, the beaten path, even
00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:44.000
(David Teachout)
Christian thinkers and go. Oh, maybe there was a
00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:48.000
(David Teachout)
reason why my fundamentalist background told me to stay away from this person
00:44:48.000 --> 00:44:52.000
(David Teachout)
because for all intensive purposes, they were really
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:44:52.000 --> 00:44:56.000
(David Teachout)
preaching humanism and you know that wasn't
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right.
00:44:56.000 --> 00:45:00.000
(David Teachout)
appropriate. So, wait a minute, why can't I still get something out of it? I certainly can't
00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:04.000
(David Teachout)
without again necessarily, you know, taking on all the, you know,
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yep.
00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:08.000
(David Teachout)
the baggage and talk about green. Talk about
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:45:08.000 --> 00:45:12.000
(David Teachout)
being able to look at your own self in the mirror and go. Oh,
00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:16.000
(David Teachout)
I am not this broken shell that,
00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:20.000
(David Teachout)
you know, that where I have to rebuild everything.
00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:24.000
(David Teachout)
I am instead the same person I've been in a certain level
00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:28.000
(David Teachout)
all And now I just finally
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:32.000
(David Teachout)
clued in that. Here's some more questions to ask. Yay.
00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:36.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah, and you use a phrase, I use a lot.
00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:40.000
(David Teachout)
Yeah.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Oddly, we've never met before, but some overlap overlap here, our brains
00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:44.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
are incredibly dumb. I always say, like, we have this vast. Super computer that is more
00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:48.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
complex than anything else on the planet and yet, it's so lazy.
00:45:48.000 --> 00:45:52.000
(David Teachout)
So lazy.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
I think a lot of it, I think a lot of that
00:45:52.000 --> 00:45:56.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
identity work and kind of this idea of rebuilding is around just that our brain
00:45:56.000 --> 00:46:00.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
wants categories. And so You know, for a lot of people they go.
00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:04.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Okay, don't believe it. That must mean I'm an atheist and then they kind of land like, well, that's kind of a
00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:08.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Avoid. Identity like
00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:12.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
identifying as I'm not something else, doesn't really tell people what I am and
00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:16.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
so I I view that work is kind of like figuring out that kind of
00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:20.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
community. We like that short hand term of. I'm this
00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:24.000
(David Teachout)
Jumped.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
hey I'm Jeremy. I'm a therapist
00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:28.000
00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:32.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
needs.
00:46:32.000 --> 00:46:36.000
00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:40.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Leave a religious group and that community finds out that you've left.
00:46:40.000 --> 00:46:44.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
There are like those questions that there are those conversations around. Well, what are you what are you
00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:48.000
(David Teachout)
Oh my gosh. Absolutely.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
now? So I think there's that push for that.
00:46:48.000 --> 00:46:52.000
(David Teachout)
Yeah.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
And it's it's just labels. It's
00:46:52.000 --> 00:46:56.000
(David Teachout)
Yeah. One recently came to the to the point
00:46:56.000 --> 00:47:00.000
(David Teachout)
of going. Like, Anytime I have somebody approach me
00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:04.000
(David Teachout)
in any context and go, I identify as pretty much, the person
00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:08.000
(David Teachout)
has told me two things. One, they don't like questioning themselves, very much
00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:12.000
(David Teachout)
and two that they are
00:47:12.000 --> 00:47:16.000
(David Teachout)
endeavoring to control how I see them.
00:47:16.000 --> 00:47:20.000
(David Teachout)
which totally makes sense like we're all doing it in very ways
00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:24.000
(David Teachout)
like it's it's all status but you know, it's like
00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:28.000
(David Teachout)
But I don't I don't have to accept that
00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:32.000
(David Teachout)
like I don't like I can I can acknowledge Oh this is your attempt at
00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:36.000
(David Teachout)
making sense of your life. Awesome sauce. Okay.
00:47:36.000 --> 00:47:40.000
(David Teachout)
And yet. I can sit there as well and
00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:44.000
(David Teachout)
go, but I hopefully am going to
00:47:44.000 --> 00:47:48.000
(David Teachout)
Endeavor to see you as more than just this Sorry if that makes you uncomfortable
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:52.000
(David Teachout)
but sorry not sorry but you know
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right.
00:47:52.000 --> 00:47:56.000
(David Teachout)
it's like but come on we're more than this
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:47:56.000 --> 00:48:00.000
(David Teachout)
and that's okay and you know labels are inevitable
00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:04.000
(David Teachout)
but they are the final word
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:48:04.000 --> 00:48:08.000
(David Teachout)
on anything. Thankfully.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right. Yeah, well and I talk about that
00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:12.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
a lot with clients.
00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:16.000
(David Teachout)
Yeah.
00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:24.000
00:48:24.000 --> 00:48:28.000
(David Teachout)
Know.
00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:32.000
(David Teachout)
Yeah.
00:48:32.000 --> 00:48:52.000
00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:56.000
(David Teachout)
You know.
00:48:56.000 --> 00:49:08.000
00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:12.000
(David Teachout)
Right.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Absolutely doesn't.
00:49:12.000 --> 00:49:16.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
But that shorthand idea of, I'm an atheist or I'm
00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:20.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
a secular humanist, or I'm a whatever like We like the shorthand.
00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:24.000
(David Teachout)
He? Right.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
There's some utility but also it's limited.
00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:28.000
(David Teachout)
Well, and even more where it becomes problematic is, is
00:49:28.000 --> 00:49:32.000
(David Teachout)
that I am this.
00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:36.000
(David Teachout)
Therefore my behavior must be that
00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:40.000
(David Teachout)
and you're like, No. I mean it literally
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right.
00:49:40.000 --> 00:49:44.000
(David Teachout)
I work with a lot of people near diversions as well,
00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:48.000
(David Teachout)
kind of stumbled into it, didn't realize that was happening and
00:49:48.000 --> 00:49:52.000
(David Teachout)
then realize wait, like 20% of my clients are and
00:49:52.000 --> 00:49:56.000
(David Teachout)
because they work with a lot of like how do we
00:49:56.000 --> 00:50:00.000
(David Teachout)
systematize understanding our emotional experiences in
00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:04.000
(David Teachout)
relationship? Of any kind. And so,
00:50:04.000 --> 00:50:08.000
(David Teachout)
working started like finding going on, okay? This is interesting and
00:50:08.000 --> 00:50:12.000
(David Teachout)
in going, but in and I've seen
00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:16.000
(David Teachout)
where the diagnosis that they get
00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:20.000
(David Teachout)
usually for somebody else because I don't deal with insurance. So I don't do much in the way of
00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:24.000
(David Teachout)
diagnosis. Not least, because I'm not a real big fan of the medical model,
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yep.
00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:28.000
(David Teachout)
but, you know, it's like we don't, you know, seen people were
00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:32.000
(David Teachout)
once they get it. Finally. Behavior
00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:36.000
(David Teachout)
changes. in going, we would
00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:40.000
(David Teachout)
You were doing really well. Working with people,
00:50:40.000 --> 00:50:44.000
(David Teachout)
and having complex conversations and working on emotional
00:50:44.000 --> 00:50:48.000
(David Teachout)
knowledge. Suddenly you get this, you know, this
00:50:48.000 --> 00:50:52.000
(David Teachout)
diagnosis. and three months later you're going
00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:56.000
(David Teachout)
No, I need accommodations because I have a real hard time, understanding people's emotional
00:50:56.000 --> 00:51:00.000
(David Teachout)
states and I'm like Nothing changed,
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:04.000
(David Teachout)
except the identity power of then
00:51:04.000 --> 00:51:08.000
(David Teachout)
limiting the behavioral possibility and it's like,
00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:12.000
(David Teachout)
Wow how?
00:51:12.000 --> 00:51:16.000
(David Teachout)
Really just incredible. It is for any of
00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:20.000
(David Teachout)
us to then. And again, bringing us almost full circle of going
00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:24.000
(David Teachout)
Here is the danger of that black and white thinking. And, you know, the
00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:28.000
(David Teachout)
overtness of identity and, you know, thinking of ourselves only through one way
00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:32.000
(David Teachout)
and going. Why should we artificially limit?
00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:36.000
(David Teachout)
Like they are useful, hands down. It can be very
00:51:36.000 --> 00:51:40.000
(David Teachout)
useful as a kind of Almost cognitive shorthand to
00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:44.000
(David Teachout)
begin a conversation. But it's the beginning of the
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:51:44.000 --> 00:51:48.000
(David Teachout)
conversation, not the end. This does not tell you
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right.
00:51:48.000 --> 00:51:52.000
(David Teachout)
how this is gonna, you know, show up, you know. It's was
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:51:52.000 --> 00:51:56.000
(David Teachout)
somebody referred to totally taking it
00:51:56.000 --> 00:52:00.000
(David Teachout)
as the DSM, you know, diagnostics
00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:04.000
(David Teachout)
because millennial, for anybody who wasn't aware who's listening but
00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:08.000
(David Teachout)
I mean, it's like it is not one,
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah. Yeah.
00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:12.000
(David Teachout)
it is not actually a diagnostic and it is not, in fact, an annual
00:52:12.000 --> 00:52:16.000
(David Teachout)
It is really a
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right. Yeah.
00:52:16.000 --> 00:52:20.000
(David Teachout)
descriptive machine. And that's
00:52:20.000 --> 00:52:24.000
(David Teachout)
it like it's not it's and it's descriptive not
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:28.000
(David Teachout)
prescriptive. It's not telling you what's going to happen next.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right.
00:52:28.000 --> 00:52:32.000
(David Teachout)
Even though that's how people often think of it in way too many
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:52:32.000 --> 00:52:36.000
(David Teachout)
clinicians do as well. But it's just like, well, if I get this, this is now, what's gonna happen?
00:52:36.000 --> 00:52:40.000
(David Teachout)
No, you think
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right.
00:52:40.000 --> 00:52:44.000
(David Teachout)
literally like You know, it's really bipolar is one of my favorite examples.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:52:44.000 --> 00:52:48.000
(David Teachout)
It's like You know, I always get them confused but you know it's like
00:52:48.000 --> 00:52:52.000
(David Teachout)
bipolar too. It's like all it means is that you had some kind of hypomanic
00:52:52.000 --> 00:52:56.000
(David Teachout)
romantic state. At some point. You can have one never again for
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:52:56.000 --> 00:53:00.000
(David Teachout)
the rest of your life and still have that label
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right.
00:53:00.000 --> 00:53:04.000
(David Teachout)
How crazy making is that legit?
00:53:04.000 --> 00:53:08.000
(David Teachout)
Like a limiting, is that if that's how you're then going to be
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah. Yeah.
00:53:08.000 --> 00:53:12.000
(David Teachout)
treating yourself? Nah.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
and I don't, Same. I run my own practice
00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:16.000
(David Teachout)
Know, very free.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
don't have to deal with insurance, which has been very free. I like that
00:53:16.000 --> 00:53:20.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
for a lot of reasons. And as a marriage therapist,
00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:32.000
00:53:32.000 --> 00:53:36.000
(David Teachout)
Oh yeah.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Therapist
00:53:36.000 --> 00:53:44.000
00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:48.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
needs.
00:53:48.000 --> 00:53:52.000
00:53:52.000 --> 00:53:56.000
(David Teachout)
Yeah.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
It's a, it goes back to
00:53:56.000 --> 00:54:00.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
the psychodynamic a little bit of like, well here's years of therapy, hope hope you have good insurance,
00:54:00.000 --> 00:54:04.000
(David Teachout)
Yes, and a lot of money and
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
you know? Like that's Yeah,
00:54:04.000 --> 00:54:08.000
(David Teachout)
yeah, yeah.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
I think it's just awful. Especially when trauma is,
00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:12.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
is often not at all that person's fault. Not a thing, they ask for, and then they're getting,
00:54:12.000 --> 00:54:16.000
(David Teachout)
No. Yep.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
they're being blamed through that diagnosis. So, We could
00:54:16.000 --> 00:54:20.000
(David Teachout)
But it's oh
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
spend a whole another hour complaining about the medical model and
00:54:20.000 --> 00:54:24.000
(David Teachout)
my God. Yeah.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
well and the DSM. The DSM2. The history of it is, it
00:54:24.000 --> 00:54:28.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
was designed for research purposes, it was just supposed to be This is
00:54:28.000 --> 00:54:32.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
this person qualifies for the research study and this person doesn't so that
00:54:32.000 --> 00:54:36.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
our sample size is somewhat organized and it's grown into this.
00:54:36.000 --> 00:54:40.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Like monstrous thing that insurance companies use to
00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:44.000
(David Teachout)
Yep. Yeah, what is,
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
decide how much they're willing to like it's awful.
00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:48.000
(David Teachout)
what is legitimate, you know, recently got called out, You know,
00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:52.000
(David Teachout)
because they, you know, do contract work and where they work with insurance
00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:56.000
(David Teachout)
and you know, z you know, Z codes, you know, we're
00:54:56.000 --> 00:55:00.000
(David Teachout)
considered well, you know, it's not serious enough
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:04.000
(David Teachout)
for for their wait, a minute. Fundamental
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right.
00:55:04.000 --> 00:55:08.000
(David Teachout)
problems with your primary relationship is not
00:55:08.000 --> 00:55:12.000
(David Teachout)
Serious enough. But if I slap anxiety and OS on it
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:55:12.000 --> 00:55:16.000
(David Teachout)
suddenly it is like where did this?
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah. Well.
00:55:16.000 --> 00:55:20.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
And that this is pulling back, the curtain a little bit for the non-therapy people but
00:55:20.000 --> 00:55:24.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
like I was taught at I went and got I went grad school postgrad right away
00:55:24.000 --> 00:55:28.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
to get my marriage and my license and marriage and family therapy and I was taught like you're gonna
00:55:28.000 --> 00:55:32.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
diagnose adjustment disorder. Like, That's, that's the couples diagnosis. You can't use
00:55:32.000 --> 00:55:36.000
(David Teachout)
Nope.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
a V code, you can't do z code, like you're not gonna reimbursed you have like, adjust just
00:55:36.000 --> 00:55:40.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
that's what it is. And like, any other thing is secondary as a marriage
00:55:40.000 --> 00:55:44.000
(David Teachout)
Right.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
therapist needs
00:55:44.000 --> 00:55:48.000
00:55:48.000 --> 00:55:52.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
therapy for most of my career,
00:55:52.000 --> 00:55:56.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
but like being at a point to where I open my own practice and be like, Yeah, I know, I
00:55:56.000 --> 00:56:00.000
(David Teachout)
I don't know. Yeah, not gonna go there.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
don't take insurance. So yeah, it's very free and I think
00:56:00.000 --> 00:56:04.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
I had I'd spent a whole session. Explaining
00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:08.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
all the flaws of the DSM and the diagnosis that I was about to give this person
00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:12.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
and like explain Here's what you're gonna see in your treatment plan. And here's why
00:56:12.000 --> 00:56:16.000
(David Teachout)
Yeah.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
and like this is what it means to me, but this is what it means. Yeah. So like Yeah,
00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:20.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
it's so clunky and and I think not helpful for clients at all
00:56:20.000 --> 00:56:24.000
(David Teachout)
No, not at all. Well and that's it's one of the people
00:56:24.000 --> 00:56:28.000
(David Teachout)
that on occasion shop like, you know, I was studying online. I'm like, Oh God.
00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:32.000
(David Teachout)
And you know, I think I have this personality disorder and one
00:56:32.000 --> 00:56:36.000
(David Teachout)
of my favorite things to do is to point out how in the latest
00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:40.000
(David Teachout)
iteration of the DSM, the animals got rid of personality disorders entirely
00:56:40.000 --> 00:56:44.000
(David Teachout)
and if you want there's an appendix in the back that shows an
00:56:44.000 --> 00:56:48.000
(David Teachout)
entirely different way of doing them and they're like,
00:56:48.000 --> 00:56:52.000
(David Teachout)
Wait, what? I'm like? Yeah, I know Hollywood's gonna have to figure out new plot
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:56:52.000 --> 00:56:56.000
(David Teachout)
points, but you know, this is like
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right.
00:56:56.000 --> 00:57:00.000
(David Teachout)
understand these things are malleable. They are best guesses
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:57:00.000 --> 00:57:04.000
(David Teachout)
for research purposes. They were never intended
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right.
00:57:04.000 --> 00:57:08.000
(David Teachout)
to be prescriptive in any way but
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:57:08.000 --> 00:57:12.000
(David Teachout)
Yeah, I mean there's a whole history of you know. Well,
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:16.000
(David Teachout)
in fact, let's uh, what's the guy's name?
00:57:16.000 --> 00:57:20.000
(David Teachout)
Yeah, Samuel Wright and Cummings.
00:57:20.000 --> 00:57:24.000
(David Teachout)
Where the, you know, look through like basically
00:57:24.000 --> 00:57:28.000
(David Teachout)
mental health was envious of medical science.
00:57:28.000 --> 00:57:32.000
(David Teachout)
And when if we can take over some of their
00:57:32.000 --> 00:57:36.000
(David Teachout)
structure, then we'll become legitimate. And it's
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah. Right.
00:57:36.000 --> 00:57:40.000
(David Teachout)
like yeah. And and
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:57:40.000 --> 00:57:44.000
(David Teachout)
as well make a lot more money. You're like, Yeah,
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:57:44.000 --> 00:57:48.000
(David Teachout)
this was not good for anybody.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
No,
00:57:48.000 --> 00:57:52.000
(David Teachout)
Yeah.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
so Segway in a tiny bit. Here you have your
00:57:52.000 --> 00:57:56.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
own practice. I have my own practice, tell me a little bit about like that that process and that
00:57:56.000 --> 00:58:00.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
transition, why it the point your career, where you did that and kind of how it's
00:58:00.000 --> 00:58:04.000
(David Teachout)
Yeah, so
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
served you and your your clients that you work with.
00:58:04.000 --> 00:58:08.000
(David Teachout)
the I went fully telehealth
00:58:08.000 --> 00:58:12.000
(David Teachout)
about three months or so before covid. Hit
00:58:12.000 --> 00:58:16.000
(David Teachout)
you know is basically looking at Oh my gosh. I have to you know have
00:58:16.000 --> 00:58:20.000
(David Teachout)
at least five or eight clients in order to even break,
00:58:20.000 --> 00:58:24.000
(David Teachout)
even in a month. Do it all the overhead. It's like, Wait a minute. Is this really all that helpful
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right.
00:58:24.000 --> 00:58:28.000
(David Teachout)
and so Wayne You know fully telehealth
00:58:28.000 --> 00:58:32.000
(David Teachout)
then covid. Hit like Okay. I'm Smarter than I thought I was. Yeah.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Ahead of the curve.
00:58:32.000 --> 00:58:36.000
(David Teachout)
Right. And it's gone through a few iterations since then
00:58:36.000 --> 00:58:40.000
(David Teachout)
as far as like how all of that, you know, the background stuff works. But
00:58:40.000 --> 00:58:44.000
(David Teachout)
but really that's, I'm, I'm
00:58:44.000 --> 00:58:48.000
(David Teachout)
licensed as a therapist
00:58:48.000 --> 00:58:52.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Mmm.
00:58:52.000 --> 00:58:56.000
00:58:56.000 --> 00:59:00.000
(David Teachout)
needs.
00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:04.000
00:59:04.000 --> 00:59:08.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:59:08.000 --> 00:59:16.000
00:59:16.000 --> 00:59:20.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right.
00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:24.000
00:59:24.000 --> 00:59:28.000
(David Teachout)
Word into a healthier
00:59:28.000 --> 00:59:32.000
(David Teachout)
goal-directed value directed life. And
00:59:32.000 --> 00:59:36.000
(David Teachout)
you know, answering questions. I
00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:40.000
(David Teachout)
love giving out resources doing a lot of Biblio therapy
00:59:40.000 --> 00:59:44.000
(David Teachout)
if you want to call it that. But it's like Yeah, let's cruise chapter by chapter, Let's
00:59:44.000 --> 00:59:48.000
(David Teachout)
go through this, Let's figure this out. And How does this then apply again, always
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
00:59:48.000 --> 00:59:52.000
(David Teachout)
practical, always coming back to? How is this actually going to
00:59:52.000 --> 00:59:56.000
(David Teachout)
inform you? We are not going to be some, You know, Ivory Tower, you know,
00:59:56.000 --> 01:00:00.000
(David Teachout)
intellectualizing one because that's my
01:00:00.000 --> 01:00:04.000
(David Teachout)
usual way out and so constantly fighting against it.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
01:00:04.000 --> 01:00:08.000
(David Teachout)
But, you know, it's just like, How does this actually work in life? And
01:00:08.000 --> 01:00:12.000
(David Teachout)
so that's been a growing growing part again because
01:00:12.000 --> 01:00:16.000
(David Teachout)
I don't go to insurance. That was a little easier
01:00:16.000 --> 01:00:20.000
(David Teachout)
at least at the private practice level contract work is different.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
01:00:20.000 --> 01:00:24.000
(David Teachout)
But, but yeah, that's been that's been increasing,
01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:28.000
(David Teachout)
you know, used to do a lot of blog writing. I
01:00:28.000 --> 01:00:32.000
(David Teachout)
haven't in a while. I'm just bogged down on so many other things. Did a podcast
01:00:32.000 --> 01:00:36.000
(David Teachout)
for a while plan on getting back to that in a bit?
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah. Yeah.
01:00:36.000 --> 01:00:40.000
(David Teachout)
but yeah, I mean really just
01:00:40.000 --> 01:00:44.000
(David Teachout)
a lot of it at this point is Being able to reach
01:00:44.000 --> 01:00:48.000
(David Teachout)
anybody wherever they are. And
01:00:48.000 --> 01:00:52.000
(David Teachout)
doing so, in the best of ethics, you know, I'm still beholden
01:00:52.000 --> 01:00:56.000
(David Teachout)
to, well, they see a ethics codes and how does
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right.
01:00:56.000 --> 01:01:00.000
(David Teachout)
that, you know, work in practice. And so, you know, it's a
01:01:00.000 --> 01:01:04.000
(David Teachout)
determination of This is serious. You need to be close
01:01:04.000 --> 01:01:08.000
(David Teachout)
to and have access to, you know, medical treatment and me being this
01:01:08.000 --> 01:01:12.000
(David Teachout)
far away, whatever that may be, mmm isn't healthiest
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right.
01:01:12.000 --> 01:01:16.000
(David Teachout)
and most beneficial for you. So then we can work on
01:01:16.000 --> 01:01:20.000
(David Teachout)
I helping you contact somebody. And if you have any further
01:01:20.000 --> 01:01:24.000
(David Teachout)
questions, obviously we can still discuss that and so forth, but
01:01:24.000 --> 01:01:28.000
(David Teachout)
it really is it's just going, you know, one after 20 years.
01:01:28.000 --> 01:01:32.000
(David Teachout)
Been there, done that. And How can I
01:01:32.000 --> 01:01:36.000
(David Teachout)
serve? Yeah. Really like how can I help? so,
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah. Yeah.
01:01:36.000 --> 01:01:40.000
(David Teachout)
Yeah.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Very cool. I like to end on kind of
01:01:40.000 --> 01:01:44.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
some, some lighter fair. What's what's a good
01:01:44.000 --> 01:01:48.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
pop culture? Who's your maybe you have a couple of them? Who's your go-to like
01:01:48.000 --> 01:01:52.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
this is a good portrayal in pop culture of a mental health issue.
01:01:52.000 --> 01:01:56.000
(David Teachout)
A good betrayal. There are plenty of bad ones.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
There are plenty of bad ones so I made it a hard question but
01:01:56.000 --> 01:02:00.000
(David Teachout)
I'm like man, I mean of course why did I go into forensic?
01:02:00.000 --> 01:02:04.000
(David Teachout)
Psych. I mean lector. But,
01:02:04.000 --> 01:02:08.000
(David Teachout)
you know, Clarice was was just a
01:02:08.000 --> 01:02:12.000
(David Teachout)
hand. Clear academic crush as well.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Did you?
01:02:12.000 --> 01:02:16.000
(David Teachout)
But yeah.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Like shoot, what's the?
01:02:16.000 --> 01:02:20.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
I was on Netflix. They didn't pick it up for a second season, but it was good. It was
01:02:20.000 --> 01:02:24.000
(David Teachout)
oh, It was brilliant. Absolutely
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
the start.
01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:28.000
(David Teachout)
brilliant. It was
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Was the title. I'm drawing a blank on it.
01:02:28.000 --> 01:02:32.000
(David Teachout)
Not mind Hunter. That was the beginning of the API,
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah,
01:02:32.000 --> 01:02:36.000
(David Teachout)
Behavioral Science Unit. Oh, oh yeah.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
no, that might Hunter. That's what I was talking about. What are you talking about?
01:02:36.000 --> 01:02:40.000
(David Teachout)
Oh, I was talking about the, the precursor
01:02:40.000 --> 01:02:44.000
(David Teachout)
to Hannibal when when the the initial
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Sure.
01:02:44.000 --> 01:02:48.000
(David Teachout)
guy found it and it was their whole like back and forth back and forth
01:02:48.000 --> 01:02:52.000
(David Teachout)
craziness, where lector was played by a
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
01:02:52.000 --> 01:02:56.000
(David Teachout)
man's Nicholson. Which I know is sacrilege, but in
01:02:56.000 --> 01:03:00.000
(David Teachout)
many ways was better. so,
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
01:03:00.000 --> 01:03:04.000
(David Teachout)
but, No, it's brilliant.
01:03:04.000 --> 01:03:08.000
(David Teachout)
Yeah, minor was excellent. Gabriel
01:03:08.000 --> 01:03:12.000
(David Teachout)
Byrne. And in treatment, I actually
01:03:12.000 --> 01:03:16.000
(David Teachout)
found often at least in the first season,
01:03:16.000 --> 01:03:20.000
(David Teachout)
the second season started be like Yeah, okay. Now you're
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Anthony
01:03:20.000 --> 01:03:24.000
(David Teachout)
going for drama. Yes.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
end up. Sleeping with a client, the classic Bad boundaries
01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:28.000
(David Teachout)
Okay, Classic. Yeah, although from what?
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Hollywood example. Yeah, I think that's when I quit watching
01:03:28.000 --> 01:03:32.000
(David Teachout)
I yeah, from what I gather though, it's like, Well, I mean, you know, we have
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
it.
01:03:32.000 --> 01:03:36.000
(David Teachout)
to have these ethics courses, I couldn't see. He's like every couple of years
01:03:36.000 --> 01:03:40.000
(David Teachout)
and, and they still come back to, don't
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
01:03:40.000 --> 01:03:44.000
(David Teachout)
sleep with your clients. And they're like, Why do we keep having to say this?
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
01:03:44.000 --> 01:03:48.000
(David Teachout)
Because he keeps happening. like
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Because it keeps happening. Yeah.
01:03:48.000 --> 01:03:52.000
(David Teachout)
okay, but yeah, no Gabriel Burn was great
01:03:52.000 --> 01:03:56.000
(David Teachout)
in that and there was There was one other.
01:03:56.000 --> 01:04:00.000
(David Teachout)
Oh, I forget now
01:04:00.000 --> 01:04:04.000
(David Teachout)
there been, you know, pieces here and there, you know, it's interesting
01:04:04.000 --> 01:04:08.000
(David Teachout)
at times once they got away from. I mean, what about Bob
01:04:08.000 --> 01:04:12.000
(David Teachout)
is still one of my favorite movies of all time, when it comes to Psych,
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Hey,
01:04:12.000 --> 01:04:16.000
(David Teachout)
not least because Bill Murray is comedic
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
yeah.
01:04:16.000 --> 01:04:20.000
(David Teachout)
genius, and we'll be for all time. So say, I
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah. You're
01:04:20.000 --> 01:04:24.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
my you're my second you're my second guess to highlight. What about Bob as
01:04:24.000 --> 01:04:28.000
(David Teachout)
There you go. It's, it's amazing.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
influential movie?
01:04:28.000 --> 01:04:32.000
(David Teachout)
But I mean even the even the therapist
01:04:32.000 --> 01:04:36.000
01:04:36.000 --> 01:04:40.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
01:04:40.000 --> 01:04:48.000
01:04:48.000 --> 01:04:52.000
(David Teachout)
The further they get away from the caricature, the more
01:04:52.000 --> 01:04:56.000
(David Teachout)
that it that it just seems to you know, to really
01:04:56.000 --> 01:05:00.000
(David Teachout)
like well frankly, she's better writing anyway. So okay
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:04.000
(David Teachout)
yeah. But yeah, there's any anytime there's a therapist.
01:05:04.000 --> 01:05:12.000
01:05:12.000 --> 01:05:16.000
(David Teachout)
A absolute
01:05:16.000 --> 01:05:20.000
(David Teachout)
cluster of the ethical problems. In the therapist
01:05:20.000 --> 01:05:24.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah. Right.
01:05:24.000 --> 01:05:32.000
01:05:32.000 --> 01:05:36.000
(David Teachout)
needs.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
01:05:36.000 --> 01:05:40.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Okay,
01:05:40.000 --> 01:05:44.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
yeah, it's not. It's not good drama. If you don't have that, that
01:05:44.000 --> 01:05:48.000
(David Teachout)
No. No. Yeah. I mean when
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
ethical dilemma in there.
01:05:48.000 --> 01:05:52.000
(David Teachout)
eventually she's sleeping with another angel and having the baby and I mean it's just like you know
01:05:52.000 --> 01:05:56.000
(David Teachout)
it's just kind of crazy but that was but that was even one though
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
01:05:56.000 --> 01:06:00.000
(David Teachout)
that was also amazing because you know at one point one I love the
01:06:00.000 --> 01:06:04.000
(David Teachout)
show because like really if you're gonna turn you know
01:06:04.000 --> 01:06:08.000
(David Teachout)
Christian mythology into a soap opera, it's primed for
01:06:08.000 --> 01:06:12.000
(David Teachout)
that. But was this
01:06:12.000 --> 01:06:16.000
(David Teachout)
moment where One
01:06:16.000 --> 01:06:20.000
(David Teachout)
when she finally realized that, all these beings were real. You know,
01:06:20.000 --> 01:06:24.000
(David Teachout)
it's just because all the like, all this is a metaphor that you're Satan like, okay?
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right.
01:06:24.000 --> 01:06:28.000
(David Teachout)
And then, when she finally sees his face when, you know,
01:06:28.000 --> 01:06:32.000
(David Teachout)
that whole self-discovery piece and then when she, you know, when the
01:06:32.000 --> 01:06:36.000
(David Teachout)
therapist needs
01:06:36.000 --> 01:06:40.000
01:06:40.000 --> 01:06:44.000
(David Teachout)
therapy.
01:06:44.000 --> 01:06:52.000
01:06:52.000 --> 01:06:56.000
(David Teachout)
And I can
01:06:56.000 --> 01:07:00.000
(David Teachout)
deeply appreciate that. Even though, obviously, I don't think any of that stuff
01:07:00.000 --> 01:07:04.000
(David Teachout)
exists, but as a stand in, in the original kind of metaphor
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Right.
01:07:04.000 --> 01:07:08.000
(David Teachout)
idea, It's pretty darn. Still powerful to be able
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
01:07:08.000 --> 01:07:12.000
(David Teachout)
to sit there and go, yeah, you know what, sometimes you just need to get rid of it. All and
01:07:12.000 --> 01:07:16.000
(David Teachout)
go. Wow. Life is crazy, and that's
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah.
01:07:16.000 --> 01:07:20.000
(David Teachout)
awesome. No.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah. For sure.
01:07:20.000 --> 01:07:24.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Well, that's I think a good good bow on this episode life is
01:07:24.000 --> 01:07:28.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
crazy and sometimes is awesome. I think that's a, That's
01:07:28.000 --> 01:07:32.000
(David Teachout)
Yeah.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
a good summary David. If people are interested in in tracking down, some of the old
01:07:32.000 --> 01:07:36.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
blogs and podcasts or the work you're doing now or want to get in contact to work with you.
01:07:36.000 --> 01:07:40.000
(David Teachout)
My
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Where do they find you? What are you doing nowadays?
01:07:40.000 --> 01:07:44.000
(David Teachout)
primary site is Life-weavings.com
01:07:44.000 --> 01:07:48.000
(David Teachout)
my podcast name was humanity's values. It's still on
01:07:48.000 --> 01:07:52.000
(David Teachout)
pretty much any hosting platform,
01:07:52.000 --> 01:07:56.000
(David Teachout)
you can find me on Twitter and likely things as well
01:07:56.000 --> 01:08:00.000
(David Teachout)
and on Facebook, you know, I have a business page, same name,
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah, sure.
01:08:00.000 --> 01:08:04.000
(David Teachout)
you can find me pretty much anywhere. Like, if you for that matter, if you Google me,
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
and now,
01:08:04.000 --> 01:08:08.000
(David Teachout)
I'm actually it's me in, like, five of the top 10.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah. I'll
01:08:08.000 --> 01:08:12.000
(David Teachout)
Yeah.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
shout out your website as far as another therapist.
01:08:12.000 --> 01:08:20.000
01:08:20.000 --> 01:08:24.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
For finding meaning making
01:08:24.000 --> 01:08:28.000
(David Teachout)
Yeah.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
you have great resources up there for that. So yeah, I will as a
01:08:28.000 --> 01:08:32.000
(David Teachout)
Thank you.
-
(Jeremy Schumacher)
fellow therapist
01:08:32.000 --> 01:08:36.000
01:08:36.000 --> 01:08:40.000
(David Teachout)
Yeah. It's
01:08:40.000 --> 01:08:44.000
(David Teachout)
good. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
01:08:44.000 --> 01:08:48.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Jeremy, you can find all my stuff at wellness, with jared.com, all
01:08:48.000 --> 01:08:52.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
my socials and other media projects, I have ADHD. So I do a little bit
01:08:52.000 --> 01:08:56.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
of everything for as long as it holds my attention David, this was awesome.
01:08:56.000 --> 01:09:00.000
(David Teachout)
Yeah, thank you. This is great.
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(Jeremy Schumacher)
Thank you so much for joining me.
01:09:00.000 --> 01:09:04.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
Yeah, very cool. All right. Thank you to all the listeners out there and we'll be back
01:09:04.000 --> 01:09:08.000
(Jeremy Schumacher)
next week with another episode. Take care everybody.
01:09:08.000 --> 01:09:09.000