Your Therapist Needs Therapy
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Your Therapist Needs Therapy
Your Therapist Needs Therapy 19 - The Lasting Harm of Purity Culture with Tara McGrath
This week Jeremy has the chance to chat with Tara McGrath. Jeremy and Tara talk about systems work as MFTs (even with individuals!), the oddly uncomfortable realities of going on mission trips as young people, and how long it can take to get purity culture out of your system.
You can check out more about Tara and her practice working with post-religious and queer folks here, and can find her on Instagram @theagnostictherapist
You can find out more about Jeremy and his practice at Wellness with Jer.
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Podcasts about therapy do not replace actual therapy, and listening to a podcast about therapy does not signify a therapeutic relationship.
If you or someone you know is in crisis please call or text the nationwide crisis line at 988, or text HELLO to 741741. The Trevor Project has a crisis line for LGBTQ+ young people that can be reached by texting 678678.
Your Therapist Needs Therapy - Tara McGrath - Transcript
Attendees
Jeremy Schumacher, Tara McGrath
Transcript
This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it was created.
Jeremy Schumacher: Hello and Welcome to another edition of your therapist Needs Therapy. The podcast, We're two mental health professionals. Talk about their mental health journeys and how they navigate mental wellness while working in the mental health field today,…
Tara McGrath: Here, thank you for having me.
Jeremy Schumacher: I am joined by Tara McGrath, Tara, Thanks for joining me.
Jeremy Schumacher: First podcast, I'm putting you on the spot.
Tara McGrath: Yes, yes, it's my very first podcast. I'm very excited and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.
Tara McGrath: a little nervous but I'm excited to be here.
Jeremy Schumacher: It's easy. I'm a laid back. Chill, host.
Jeremy Schumacher: How did you get into the mental health field is always my starting.
Tara McGrath: My goodness.
Jeremy Schumacher: Question What?
Tara McGrath: Yeah. Yeah,…
Jeremy Schumacher: What got you here?
Tara McGrath: good question. it started it's funny. I was just saying this the other day I went into college thinking I was going to be a science major and then found out that was way too hard. So, I found psychology interesting and so got a degree in psychology.
Tara McGrath: But kind of fooled around for a bit after underground. And eventually just figured out that know how it is. You can't. Do a whole lot and make a good living with an undergraduate psychology degree. And I got this weird job.
Jeremy Schumacher: Right.
Tara McGrath: I was working for a little bit in travel insurance random and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Tara McGrath: That was making okay money but I was completely unfulfilled and so I eventually decided I needed to go back to school and do more meaningful work and wanted to become a therapist MFT program. And Yeah. The rest is history. So that's kind.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Was the MFT program on purpose? couples family? what was it about it that appealed to
Tara McGrath: I think when it happened I had spoken to someone who was an MFP
Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm
Tara McGrath: That sounded good to me and I just picked that it's funny too.
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Tara McGrath: Because I don't do family therapy. I don't see kids. I went into it, I don't think I really knew what I was getting into, but I do really appreciate that. I Went to an MFT program because I have that very systemic. Point of view. So I like that. I'm glad I don't regret it at all.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Tara McGrath: Even though I don't do any of that kind of work, I only see individual adults. Yeah, I like having the systemic approach and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Tara McGrath: perspective. No.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I think your story hits a lot of what I talk about with. Psychology as an undergrad, it's not well advertised that you can't do anything with it other than go to grad school.
Tara McGrath: Yeah. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: And so all us therapist.
Tara McGrath: My gosh, I had this horrible job. My first job, I worked in a residential treatment facility with kids. And it was terrible,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm
Tara McGrath: it was a lot of they're quote unquote, severely emotionally disturbed, teens, and elementary school kids. I was in hands-on restraints, almost every day.
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Tara McGrath: I mean the pay was awful so that was my experience of this is what you can do with a undergraduate psychology degree.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Tara McGrath: Yeah, no that's about it. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, just a recipe for burnout, right? Yeah,…
Tara McGrath: It was terrible. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: and I don't know why I think.
Jeremy Schumacher: It's well known in the field I don't know if it looks bad for undergrad to advertise that you can't do anything with this but yeah, I love couples therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: really appealed to me just kind of that idea of we're all part of these various ecosystems and looking at even working with an individual because that's still a big part of my caseload seeing all these Individuals, but still looking at it relationally. I don't know, I'm biased, right? But that just makes sense.
Tara McGrath: Absolutely. Yeah, none of us is an island, and most of the work that I do with people and the problems that we're addressing, it's all connected to how they're relating to other people a lot of the time.
Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yep.
Tara McGrath: Which is either just the way I approach things but we're just is right? Like you said, Maybe I'm biased but yeah, that's my training so that's…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Tara McGrath: how I'm approaching things.
Jeremy Schumacher: And I'm guessing your experience is similar to mine when explained kind of my view on that to clients it makes sense I mean nobody's ever been like that's preposterous People are almost always for interpersonal issues of some form or…
00:05:00
Tara McGrath: Yeah, absolutely.
Jeremy Schumacher: another it's all relational.
Tara McGrath: Right. Right. For the most part. Yeah. Absolutely.
Jeremy Schumacher: So then what was your experience kind of like in the field and starting to get kind of your legs under you, where you're trying to do the mft thing for a while and realize that's not a good fit for me or kind of How do you filter to These are the people I want to work with, this is what I do.
Tara McGrath: No it didn't really do a whole lot of family in the beginning.
Jeremy Schumacher: Okay, new right away.
Tara McGrath: Either, I've had a weird career trajectory, So my traineeship thing I did at the end of grad school I was a bereavement counselor so I really enjoyed that. but then completely unrelated right after Grad school, I went into working it with severely mentally ill, folks. And so working with a lot of folks with schizophrenia severe bipolar disorder, trying to keep people out of the hospital basically that was the kind of work that I got into and
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Tara McGrath: That was the population. I worked with for years, for a while. so,
Tara McGrath: Actually enjoyed it in a lot of ways. over the years, And unfortunately, this is the way our System works and a lot of ways, The more experienced you get, the less acute, the population, you work with the people who need the most help get the least experienced clinicians working with them. So, I'm working in these county programs, and county funded clinics and all of that, earning my hours doing all that sort of thing. and as I'm getting more experience and getting licensing that getting less and less acute, less and less severely ill people. And so that's…
Jeremy Schumacher: Right.
Tara McGrath: how it's kind of gone on.
Tara McGrath: so I a long time, did a lot of intake work so Over the course of my career. I've had the Pleasure of meeting a ton of people because I worked as an intake specialist for a long time. and then,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Tara McGrath: and then I worked for I don't know if I'm allowed to say the places I've worked or who I've worked for, is that like a thing?
Jeremy Schumacher: Are they litigious where they're gonna Come after a small therapy focused podcast.
Tara McGrath: I don't know. I'm not gonna say anything bad about any of it.
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure, I'm not.
Tara McGrath: So I will just say in Informationally.
Jeremy Schumacher: Speak freely.
Tara McGrath: I worked it for Kaising Permanente for several years. And while I worked there, I worked a ran. Intensive outpatient so,
Tara McGrath: I'm at times of clients doing that too.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Tara McGrath: So I've had this really cool opportunity to just meet puns and tons and tons of clients and people almost two decades. Not really long time.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Tara McGrath: But a lot of general stuff, right? I went from doing this very people with really severe mental illness, kind of bringing down the acuity but still very general because when you work in an environment like that managed care kind of clinic, you're just kind of seeing whoever they give you, you don't get to specialize. You just have to see all the people. And so eventually I left there
Tara McGrath: And had an opportunity to finally start to decide Who do I want to see? How do I want to specialize?
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Tara McGrath: I have all this experience and all this knowledge and all of this. I've met all these people and then I have all of my own experiences and all my own, stuff and what I want to do with that,
Tara McGrath: yeah, and so I decided that I wanted to kind of Narrow it down to working with. some folks who've had some similar experiences to me, which is folks working with
00:10:00
Tara McGrath: Post-religious, I hesitate to use the term religious trauma. Although I do, Sometimes use that but I do not consider myself to be a trauma specialist. So kind of recovering from religious harm or recovering from religion in general. And then also kind of intersecting with the queer folks LGBTQ population.
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Tara McGrath: So, yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Okay.
Tara McGrath: And that's my special area of focus now which is pretty cool.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, which is how we connected the Religious trauma recovering from religion niche.
Tara McGrath: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: On Instagram is still pretty interconnected and…
Tara McGrath: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: small. So
Tara McGrath: I know we're a small little gang on that Instagram. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yes. We're growing up slowly. But yeah I mean I think lived experience is so many people are leaving religion like it droves. Some of the worst church attendance in our country's history and Millennials and under tend to be more comfortably non-religious than affiliated with any sort of religious group. And so all these people leaving religion who Have some form of harm. I'm pretty comfortable using the term trauma. and working with that specifically. But it's one of those things where there's all these people who are leaving church and have to do something with that.
Tara McGrath: Absolutely. Yeah, such an impact and I think for me too, I didn't really recognize that I left so long ago so I Left.
Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm
Tara McGrath: Church and all that when I was in underground, it my experience was. I went to university and that's when my world sort of opened up and was like, yeah, maybe this isn't all true. and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Tara McGrath: then we didn't have words like deconstruction or we didn't call it any that was just sort of like you're falling away like yes,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah,…
Tara McGrath: I guess I did. that.
Jeremy Schumacher: you terrible heathen. You
Tara McGrath: Yeah. I mean even I have to live with that and I had been just sort of
Tara McGrath: Sitting with that for years and years. But I don't think I really understood all the ways that had impacted me. And it took me much longer to unpack and come to terms with my sexuality and my identity and that way that was A longer process. So the belief part was the easier part to be like,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Tara McGrath: Yeah, I don't believe in Jesus. I don't believe this stuff anymore, but the other stuff is so much more
Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yeah.
Tara McGrath: Ingrain Right? that's all the purity culture. b*** stuff that's just like …
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. …
Tara McGrath: it's just so deep in there.
Jeremy Schumacher: and I use deconstructed and deconverted differently because I think deconstruction is the doctrinal. I don't believe that stuff anymore but the deconversion is the stuff that's almost soaked it up like a sponge like it's in there. Deeply. And we don't always think of needing to not believe it. Because for many of us, we didn't choose to believe it at any point. It's just this. What was normal? So growing up in purity culture,…
Tara McGrath: Yep.
Jeremy Schumacher: you're just absorb a lot of messaging there even if it's not explicitly said to you. And so it's actual work to dig some of it out and…
Tara McGrath: Yes.
Jeremy Schumacher: be like, hang on, not only do I not believe this…
Tara McGrath: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: but I actually have to replace it with something else.
Tara McGrath: Yeah, Exactly.
Jeremy Schumacher: working with this group, kind of, what have you seen? I think I talk about this recently with somebody else like trump and covid, kind of as a double whammy of people leaving the church. But for you, you left the church a while ago. what has it been kind of finding this group of religious trauma, people both clients and other professionals like Somebody's been out of it for a long time. Is it been like, all these people are leaving church so they need help and I can relate. So I will help them or was it like reading something or seeing something that resonated with you or this is the work that I want to do.
Tara McGrath:
Tara McGrath: it was yeah, I was starting to see some of the clients just they were popping up in my case load right and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Tara McGrath: was and having I think. already openly identifying as a Queer identified therapist.
00:15:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Right.
Tara McGrath: Needs therapy who's also identified as such and so within that. I would get a client here and there, who also grew up in an evangelical family or a
Tara McGrath: Just a really super Catholic family or something. And so that would end up being part of the conversation and I was realizing Okay, This is the thing that I Totally relate to and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Tara McGrath: there is a need here and so I start digging into it online and really like realizing how much was out there. That I didn't even realize.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Tara McGrath: And it's interesting when you talk about within the last, several years. how there's been this kind of exodus out of The Church.
Tara McGrath: How little has changed it? that sort of shocked me?
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Tara McGrath: When people talk about Evangelical culture or the jokes about different things. we're on Instagram and I see things people post about youth pastors or Just all of that. I'm like, I haven't been a part of a church since the 90s and I still get 90% of the jokes, it's crazy to me…
Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Mm-
Tara McGrath: how little has changed is the same s*** and It's kind of horrifying. And kind of hilarious at the same time. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah, it's the opposite of progressive.
Tara McGrath: Right, I guess so. Right, that's the whole point. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, did you grow up in a heavy evangelical? it's evangelicalism your background.
Tara McGrath: Yeah, even angelical American Baptist, Orange County California.
Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm
Tara McGrath: so, not as conservative as some…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Tara McGrath: I did not. I have a very close friend who grew up in A small town Missouri, even though local. And so, we compare notes a lot. And so she had …
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Tara McGrath: kind of mom who would throw out her Tapes and CDs and stuff. And I didn't have that level but I was in youth group, I was in the, Praise band singing. I went on mission trips. My senior summer. I went to Europe and was the whole summer over there doing
Tara McGrath: Mission work in Eastern Europe because apparently they needed Jesus.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Mm-hmm
Tara McGrath: I was very much. Into all of that. Absolutely hardcore.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Tara McGrath: So that's my background and My parents are still very much Christians. so, that's,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Tara McGrath: That's a thing.
Jeremy Schumacher: Okay, yeah, I relate both my parents work at parochial schools still. So they very much just turned a blind eye to it and…
Tara McGrath: Okay.
Jeremy Schumacher: try not to do with it. my family's also evangelical…
Tara McGrath: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: but we're the Midwest nice. So deal with,…
Tara McGrath: Uh-huh. Where…
Jeremy Schumacher: confront things I'm from Wisconsin.
Tara McGrath: where in the Midwest? Okay. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: So even Jelica but German, so it's very subdued and stoic instead of anything people think of,…
Tara McGrath: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: as evangelical we weren't standing up and singing in church. that would be bad. I think you're the first person who's brought up mission trips. Let's talk about mission trips like What a bizarre.
Tara McGrath: man.
Jeremy Schumacher: I went to Ukraine. I did a three-week mission trip to Ukraine.
Tara McGrath:
Jeremy Schumacher: Back in the day, Why were we all going to Eastern Europe?
Tara McGrath: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: What was I was that happening.
Tara McGrath: I don't know how old you are exactly or what year that you did that,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure, I went in there early 2000s. Yeah.
Tara McGrath: but I'm Guessing I'm probably a little older than you. I went in 1994. That was the year.
Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm
Tara McGrath: I graduated high school.
Tara McGrath: so, I don't think I had a real concept of this at the time but looking back that's only five years after the Berlin Wall fell. So Yeah,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
00:20:00
Tara McGrath: so I guess that was part of the whole thing was, right? all this Eastern Block nations needed, Jesus.
Jeremy Schumacher: I had to go save the atheists over there from the Communist countries.
Tara McGrath: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I said I was gone for almost three months. I spent my whole summer,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Wow.
Tara McGrath: the Organization was called royal servants.
Jeremy Schumacher: Okay.
Tara McGrath: it wasn't my church. It was a larger organization that was a national organization. So we actually Started the summer at a boot camp in central Illinois.
Tara McGrath: And then flew to Europe and went all over Europe. We bust and we camped most of the summer in Europe.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, Yeah. That sounds so easy for youth,…
Tara McGrath: Yeah, that's pretty crazy.
Jeremy Schumacher: pastor abuse to happen.
Tara McGrath: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: it's weird because, now being deconstructed and everything, I look at, I work with people who go on the Jehovah witness or the Mormon mission troops and talked with them about That's designed to keep you in your religion. Not actually trying to convert anyone else.
Tara McGrath: Interesting.
Jeremy Schumacher: But I'm connecting some dots in real time about yeah, that's true of our little evangelical. Go to a third World country mission trips as well.
Tara McGrath: Yeah. …
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Tara McGrath: that is Such a good point and I'm not sure I ever really thought of it that way. But, it' mean Who spends their whole summer before they go away to college doing that? Right. I could have been doing a lot of other things,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yeah.
Tara McGrath: but I guess that kept me out of trouble. I mean, I wanted to go, it was not like anyone forced me to go at.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Tara McGrath: My parents didn't want me to go. I was so sad. I wanted to leave all summer. I was only 17 years old. She was But very interesting.
Jeremy Schumacher: Weird to send young,…
Tara McGrath: I am
Jeremy Schumacher: people like that who have next to no life experience and colonizing as well what a weird. It's, I…
Tara McGrath: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: That's the thing that I've talked about a lot around even jealous. I'm just like the disrespect of other cultures, Let us come save. You is like a gross mentality.
Tara McGrath: Children doing it, I mean it wasn't just like I was a senior…
Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Just bizarre.
Tara McGrath: but this was all high school kids. So there were 14 year olds in this group. I was with doing this too and…
Jeremy Schumacher:
Tara McGrath: We're going to town square's putting on little shows. Drama things or…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Tara McGrath: I was in the singing group always because I was a singer so we would sing.
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Tara McGrath: And then at the end it would be like, Okay, now's the opportunity to go witness to people or talk to them and most of the time smoking English. But it doesn't matter because God will speak to them anyway.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Tara McGrath: So we'd have tracks maybe in their language, maybe not.
Tara McGrath: But if you got someone to stand there and pray with you then more fools for God. It's like Okay.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, Yeah, no. And I remember I went to Ukraine and We had a translator, but none of our stuff was in Ukrainian, it was all in English. And I spent half the time coming up with,…
Tara McGrath: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: trying to make some version of a curriculum because what the people wanted and the kids all wanted was to learn English. So, we're there for three weeks about two weeks and the village that I got sent to and was just, I didn't have any background in curriculum, or education or language but they to learn about I'm still teaching about Jesus, but they want to learn English. So I guess I can use that and it's just wild. I got sick in Ukraine too so I did the full three weeks…
Tara McGrath:
Jeremy Schumacher: but I was Down and out for part of it, which is terrifying as somebody, who's no life experience to get severely ill in a country that you don't speak their language.
Tara McGrath: yeah. How old are you? When you were there?
Jeremy Schumacher: I was in college. I think it was the spring semester my freshman year so I was 18.
Tara McGrath: Okay, pretty young.
Tara McGrath: So yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, so yeah. I had the backup translator because we had one good translator went to the VBS kind of thing that we were doing and then the backup translator. I was staying at the pastor there, the pastor's house and came and was like we're taking you to the hospital and I was like, No, they're not.
00:25:00
Tara McGrath: No, I'm not going to the hospital.
Jeremy Schumacher: I'm not doing that.
Tara McGrath: Yeah. That sounds terrifying. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: No, I'll stay here and just be sick. Yeah. So I didn't have a good experience but I also went for terrible reasons. I went because my girlfriend was going and I don't know. So The good Christian thing to do. my presumed future spouse because that's how you date when you're evangelical Christians.
Tara McGrath: Yes. Yes,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Just a lot of terrible things about that.
Tara McGrath: of course. Yeah, yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Memories coming back. All of a sudden things I ever thought about a long time. But Just very, it wasn't about go learn about another culture and, gay knowledge and appreciation for other people. It was go teach them how to be just like you.
Tara McGrath: Yeah. Yeah. push the Jesus on them. Absolutely. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Which is not good. that's just colonization.
Tara McGrath: yeah, I definitely thought That it was like. We had this thing that people desperately needed. And I had to bring it to them.
Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm
Tara McGrath: and I think, that is the thing that people who've never been, in a fundamentalist religion or that they don't get. That. My wife grew up Catholic.
Jeremy Schumacher: Right.
Tara McGrath: But was never really super religious herself.
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Tara McGrath: When we talk about these things she always do that's so crazy. You're so extreme she really doesn't get it because she sees Religion as sort of this thing you do like you go to church or you have your wedding at a church or it's kind of like a thing you perform or…
Jeremy Schumacher: Right.
Tara McGrath: you have these rituals that make you feel safe or it's a cultural thing. Not this deep. Seated. infused every aspect of your life thing.
Jeremy Schumacher: Right.
Tara McGrath: you don't understand when I was a teenager, it was like I thought these people were going to hell and it was my job to literally save them. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah. Which
Tara McGrath: and I think that's part of the reason why I'm drawn to doing this work working with this niche because there are just therapist Been in that place and transitioned out. Don't get that. They don't understand it.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, there's a shared language to it all too. I think that and…
Tara McGrath: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: save some time, but yeah, just being able to be like, you already evangelical me too. You went on a mission trip. Let's talk about that.
Tara McGrath: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: The longer I do the podcast like talking to people who are raised Baptist or were raised, Evangelical but different branches of it because there's so many different denominations that identifies evangelical. there's so much overlap, it's all the same stuff just packaged up a little differently but then certainly growing up culturally Catholic again. I'm in the Midwest. So it's a large group of Catholic settled here there are people who are Easter and Christmas kind of Christians, but Fundamentalism is the literal, Word of God is the Bible. And therefore you are responsible for everybody else's internal it's such a heavy Literal hell awaits you if you don't do a good enough job, that's a messed up thing to tell a little kid.
Tara McGrath: Yeah, and a huge burden to put on people.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: part of what it got me into this is when I deconverted, it felt so lonely, because My wife was ready. We were both raised evangelical Lutheran but she had worked in schools connected to the church and had enough bad experiences of misogyny and all the stuff that comes with being a female in it. Evangelical setting where shoes I think just waiting for me to be like, I don't believe this anymore but we kept kind of moving more and more progressive no, gay people are okay. We Shouldn't be bigots but still trying to say Christian and finally just being I'm out. My wife is cool me too. But I think for me I was like
Jeremy Schumacher: That's all of our friends. That's all the people that we play volleyball with, that's like all of our connections…
Tara McGrath: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: because I had worked at a Christian counseling place. She had worked at Christian schools it felt very alone and for me that was the big job of doing the work and getting certified to do some of this work was There's a bunch of resources and support out here. Just people who are growing up in a high control, religion, don't have access to any of it. they're cut off on purpose from it and so trying to help people with that transition was really important to me, because it was only after I converted and was, an out and out, atheist that I was like, there's so many people out here, who could have helped
00:30:00
Tara McGrath: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: so that community is growing. But again, when you're growing up in high control, you don't have access to the outside world.
Tara McGrath: Right, right. Yeah. You don't and You're told That whatever is out there is so scary and bad and evil. And Corrupt and all that stuff too, right? …
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Tara McGrath: if there is some sort of community, it's not a real community or if there are people that are helpful and supportive it's fake or it's pretend it's just the devil waiting to get you like yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. The devil the world to your own sinful flash. and…
Tara McGrath: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: it's so much of it as projection because almost all I work with this all the time people who are afraid of losing their support system, which happens very often because those relationships aren't based on something like unconditional love. that's all conditional. We'll be friends with you as long as you show up to church every Sunday. We'll be friends with you as long as you believe the same things that we believe much of that stuff is conditional. And I think it's so hard for people to kind of, peek behind the curtain, the Wizard of Oz analogy of None of that was accurate. and not only do I not believe the Bible but the things I thought about community, or the things that I was told about relationships, those aren't accurate either?
Tara McGrath: Yeah that's so heartbreaking, too. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm. And it's just right, then the ground that you're walking on is all shifting underneath you, because It feels very lonely and scary.
Tara McGrath: It reminds me of when people are going through a breakup. And they're like was any of that real, right? You…
Jeremy Schumacher: For sure. Yeah.
Tara McGrath: even though I might have been in it for seven years, okay, but was any of that? Did you ever love me? It's kind of like that,
Jeremy Schumacher: And I think the breaking up. I do a lot of couples counseling so like I say often breaking up as a process not an event and so there's all these things that linger with it of something like purity culture realizing s*** I don't believe the Bible…
Tara McGrath: Yep.
Jeremy Schumacher: but I'm still holding on to a bunch of this stuff. that's an ongoing process. Then to Working through some of that and addressing some of that stuff.
Tara McGrath: Absolutely. Yeah. for sure purity culture is like a m*****.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, we're where you like a Ring ceremony purity ring.
Tara McGrath: No, not a ceremony. But I did have a ring. I did have a ring.
Jeremy Schumacher: Okay. Yeah.
Tara McGrath: This is A ring that I lost. And Pretty sure. I left it in the locker in PE at high school. So Oops,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Uh-huh.
Tara McGrath: lost my purity ring.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. And…
Tara McGrath: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: then I think working with the cute queer community, which I'm gonna over generalize a little bit here but say it's probably always harmed by organized religion. I guess, I'll
Tara McGrath: Yeah, I mean yeah but I would say mostly I think that is maybe changing.
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, nearly always
Tara McGrath: Certainly Where I? Am I'm in San Diego. And I live at least adjacent to the gayborhood in San Diego.
Jeremy Schumacher: sure.
Tara McGrath: And there are definitely a lot of not even just gay friendly but I would say, queer focused churches, Are they probably look very little like the churches we grew up in but in some ways are very similar.
Jeremy Schumacher: Right.
Tara McGrath: I mean, I don't know. So maybe there's some
Tara McGrath: Version of organized religion. That's happening. That isn't harmful or is less harmful. I don't know. But that's now.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Tara McGrath: I mean, Would we say that 20 years ago?
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. no,…
Tara McGrath: No. No,…
Jeremy Schumacher: and…
Tara McGrath: absolutely not.
Jeremy Schumacher: I don't know that those are all doing harm, but I think those are in reaction to people leaving the church.
Tara McGrath: Yeah. Right.
Jeremy Schumacher: And so people trying to be like, we're gonna sweep up this community. We're gonna have this niche area, I…
00:35:00
Tara McGrath: Yeah. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: I'm skeptical that community can't be done elsewhere.
Jeremy Schumacher: Better than by church. Right.
Tara McGrath: It can.
Tara McGrath: Absolutely, absolutely. So I
Tara McGrath: About 10 years ago. I joined. A community chorus to sing and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Mm- Yeah.
Tara McGrath: it is the San Diego. it's The gay women's chorus basically, but they're open to anybody allies, whatever. And at the time I was not fully out, I was married to my ex-husband.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Tara McGrath: But I Always been a singer. that was my main Activity in high school, I had missed it I just didn't have an outlet for that it was also strongly associated with church and once you're out of school and stuff like What do you do with that? I didn't know what to do with that unless you were in a church and no, I'm not gonna go join a church. Look at seeing a choir so,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Right.
Tara McGrath: I've been asking around and someone pointed me in the direction of this course, which happened to be this chorus. I was like okay. So I joined The chorus.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Tara McGrath: It turned out to be. very church not in any sort of religious or spiritual way, but in the community way, it was weird to me, how similar it felt In that way,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Tara McGrath: I'm still in it. We At the end of each rehearsal, we do a thing where we all stand around the room in a big circle and hold hands and go around the circle. And if people have concerns, they want to share with the group, they share them, it's freaking prayer requests, but it's not.
Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yeah.
Tara McGrath: It's just sharing with the community, so you can share and I mean, it felt so churchy. It was crazy. and I just thought, my God, This is Completely free of religion.
Jeremy Schumacher: Right.
Tara McGrath: You don't need any of that.
Tara McGrath: You just need a bunch of people to get together regularly and give a s*** about each other. Basically, what you need
Jeremy Schumacher: And that's one of the things I hear most from people is missing the community and it's I don't know that's how I think privileged religion is At least in American culture of that's where you go for community and it's like, communities not really based on that. It's based on, We like singing or whatever it is. It's just finding the community around a thing you enjoy or with people, you enjoy as opposed to A belief system, you're all supposed to share.
Tara McGrath: Where do you find community?
Jeremy Schumacher: That's been a bit of an ongoing process. I identify as a Theo Pagan, which is non-theistic paganism. So we're not worshiping the moon or anything that I think people sometimes accurately stereotype about the pagan community, but that took off drink covid, which was when I was As pretty deconstructed already. I was just uncomfortable with the term atheist. So it took me…
Tara McGrath: Mm-hmm
Jeremy Schumacher: but that was kind of like the jump and ripping the Band-Aid off. And so when Covid hit that community moved fully online and really took off and that I kind of was Not like early I feel like I was late to the takeoff but I've joined the community and that's been really helpful for me. My other communities have been always Activity related. So I play volleyball, so I have my volleyball friends.
Tara McGrath: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: I have my board game friends. I've had to like,…
Tara McGrath: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: rebuild some of that, I have a D&D group of people who are not church people, which is really great because I'm not a church person anymore. So some of it was rebuilding and the activities didn't change, just the people, I did them with changed. But the Ethiopic and community has been nice for me. That's kind of like some of the ritual and meaning making that church had, is that so I didn't like church services. I'm not musically gifted. I was never inquire or anything. I like some of the intellectual stimulation of it but also I am ADHD. So the church year the structure of here's Christmas and then Easter and then this so being pagan has been helpful for following the wheel of the year so it's all based off of the equinoxes and so then you have a harvest festival and do you have, halloween's a thing so that provides some structure to my year which has been helpful?
Jeremy Schumacher: And then,…
Tara McGrath: Cool.
Jeremy Schumacher: Just It's been interesting, I'm 35. So also not a lot. Higher than I would have expected. Number of, people also either deconstructed or are currently deconstructing, so, some of it is like people who have been part of my community catching up to kind of where I'm at, because I'm out and about openly atheists and promote a lot of that stuff and talk about religious trauma. So some people have been Reaching out to me. And so then it's like,…
00:40:00
Tara McGrath: Yeah. Yeah,…
Jeremy Schumacher: That's nice. I don't have to scrap my entire community.
Tara McGrath: that's nice. We've been leading the way.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. But it's work and I think that's scary for people. In the work that we do is like, what's their community. We're gonna look like without their church groups.
Tara McGrath: absolutely yeah, especially after so many Years of I think that's where one of the things that's been different for me, right as I left. So young and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm
Tara McGrath: I still have a lot of contact with people that I Grew up with and, my parents are still friends with all of the same people for 50 years of it.
Jeremy Schumacher: s***.
Tara McGrath: Friends at the same people. But when you've been to part of the same community from your entire life and you're in your 30s or 40s, To walk away from that is Terrifying.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Tara McGrath: Absolutely, Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: And what a lot of my clients bring up is like they'll say I know how people left get treated. Because they've seen people.
Tara McGrath: Yeah, cuz they've seen it happen.
Jeremy Schumacher: And so it's scary because they're pretty sure like that's what's gonna happen.
Tara McGrath: They know, absolutely.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, we talked about sexuality. I'm just gonna put you on the spot here.
Tara McGrath: Yeah, yeah,…
Jeremy Schumacher: …
Tara McGrath: totally. Let's do it.
Jeremy Schumacher: deconstructed, a period culture a little bit, but being married being in a hetero relationship and then kind of identifying some things and…
Tara McGrath: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: questioning what was that process for you I guess in relation to kind of deconstructing some old stuff around purity culture.
Tara McGrath: Yeah.
Tara McGrath: It was a very long. Process.
Tara McGrath: yeah. So I Knew.
Tara McGrath: I would say in high school but I was attracted to women. Of course. Immediately that was like, Love that down, right? That's,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Right.
Tara McGrath: that's not okay. We're not even gonna think about that. Talk about that? Nope, nope, nope. Bad bad. So
Tara McGrath: That's what I did with that. And I don't even remember a whole lot of, discussion about, I mean, it was just sort of like Being gay or being lesbian or any of that was just not even an option. I didn't really grow up in a church that was like, God, hates the gays or…
Jeremy Schumacher:
Tara McGrath: anything like that. It was just kind of like compulsive heterosexuality, right? It was just like, gay is not a thing. So just don't,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Right.
Tara McGrath: don't even there's So
Tara McGrath: I had a boyfriend in college who was the first person I ever told that I was attracted to women and I remember crying telling him that's like I was so ashamed of it. it was just not a thing for me. I wish it would go away.
Tara McGrath: as I got further into adulthood, and had more and more space from
Tara McGrath: The church and that life, and I got more comfortable with it and so myself, as Bisexual. I married, Max husband, and was kind of like, Okay, this is just sort of who I am but I'm never gonna be outs out like some people are gonna know this about me…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Tara McGrath: but I could never possibly let disappoint, my parents that way. I could never possibly.
Tara McGrath: Be in the world. And I was terrified of just Being. Out. I don't know. It was.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Tara McGrath: So it took a very long time and it wasn't until my
00:45:00
Tara McGrath: Late 30s mid to late thirties, that I really came. To terms with. realizing that I'm primarily attracted to women. Yeah, and
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Tara McGrath: Yeah, sometimes now I'm still because that took so long. it hasn't even really been my wife and I have been together eight and a half years and Sometimes I'm can't believe I'm married to a woman.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Right.
Tara McGrath: It blows my mind because I grew up and still lived for so long with this idea that that's just never gonna be a possibility for me. Yeah, so that's also another thing.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Tara McGrath: I think that makes me maybe a little bit unique, as I feel like I have this kind of both sides of the Perspective, right.
Jeremy Schumacher: Right.
Tara McGrath: I lived straight life for so long, you…
Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm
Tara McGrath: and then kind of straddled it for a little while and then now I've been living as a Queer woman with my wife for almost a decade and it's just, I don't know. I have sort of weird unique taken. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, right? I like to this isn't a one-to-one analogy but the analogy I draw for people is How many planets are there and most people will think 9 And then they And hang on though. I know that's not the correct answer but when we're taught certain things during our affirmative years, it just imprints in our brain differently. And if you're raised in a high control religion, you're kind of, correctly. Using this word here, you're doctrinated around certain things and sexualities one of them like hetero monogamous relationships are the norm in that world view and like you, if you're at an impressionable age and that's the message you keep getting over and over again it's hard to kind of combat that because it's just locked in in a certain way because of when you learned it,
Tara McGrath: Absolutely. Yeah, and
Tara McGrath: when that's locked in.
Tara McGrath: And you think. So If I'm not. attracted to Men or maybe I am sometimes because I don't consider myself. a hundred percent. I always kind of struggled with the terminology I usually say, it's funny that my wife being,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Tara McGrath: she's a little bit older than me. So she really doesn't like the word He's like. That was always a bad word when I was young, …
Jeremy Schumacher: Right.
Tara McGrath: she' doesn't hate on anybody for using it but she's just like I can't get behind it. I'm like, I understand that. But that's what the kids say now. So okay. not a bad word anymore babe.
Jeremy Schumacher: Right.
Tara McGrath: But I always land on that because I don't know. I don't want to be put in a box I mostly like women occasionally I'm attracted to do. It's but mostly not and maybe I would be attracted to some non-binary people or trans people I don't know. so, …
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Tara McGrath: I'm getting a little parenthetical there, but
Tara McGrath: If I'm having trouble in sexual in a relationship with a man I always thought there's something wrong with me. the question was never is it? That I'm just not into guys. that's not,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Right.
Tara McGrath: that's not a question that you ask when you are raised, In that environment, It's like,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Right.
Tara McGrath: Hey, it's like you're a woman to really doesn't f* matter if you're not into sex. first of all,
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I just made such a pained face for right.
Tara McGrath: Yeah, because it doesn't matter…
Jeremy Schumacher: That is purity culture messaging 101.
Tara McGrath: because you're not supposed to like sex first of all, and you're just there to put out, make him happy and also make babies, but mostly make him happy and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm
Tara McGrath: Yeah, you're not really supposed to have a whole lot of sex drive. you're not supposed to like sex, so, How was I supposed to know?
Jeremy Schumacher: Right.
Tara McGrath: And the message I usually got was just kind of like,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Right.
00:50:00
Tara McGrath: Find a nice Christian guy.
Tara McGrath: who's and then even after I left the church and maybe didn't care so much about the Christian part, I don't know, it just completely you don't know which way is up when you don't have any.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Tara McGrath: Way to connect with your own sexuality. No way to identify any of that…
Jeremy Schumacher: Right.
Tara McGrath: because you just told it's not important.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, and it's one of those I think sneaky / insidious ways in which Religion and purity culture especially is cult model, that's information control, not having frank discussions around. Here's what sexuality looks like and here all the different ways it can present only presenting one option to people limits. What your brain is aware of that's information control,…
Tara McGrath: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: that's how cults operate. But too, this is one of my soap boxes. I've had a couple sex educators on the podcast, obviously the comprehensive sex that is just so important. purity culture, harms people, even when I was still a Christian, I worked at a Christian counseling place. I can't tell you how many couples come in because they're having sexual problems because they have no background on what sex is supposed to be. It's never ever talk about it and then it's supposed to be this awesome wonderful thing when you get married and that's not at all…
Tara McGrath: Right, right.
Jeremy Schumacher: how it works.
Tara McGrath: Yeah yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: You can't come into it with all this guilt and shame and expect this awesome experience all the sudden.
Tara McGrath: Right. Right. That makes no sense. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, So yeah. No it's fascinating. I think it's just a huge topic around people who are raised in church and then figuring out their queer later in life. I think for so many people, it's similar just they were never allowed to explore it and it was never an option. Which is harmful.
Tara McGrath: I think,…
Jeremy Schumacher: It's just so harmful.
Tara McGrath: I think as women too, I don't know if this is the thing for People. socialize this boys as men, But I know definitely socializes girls in the church. I feel like you're not really. Supposed to want. much of anything like,
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Tara McGrath: Definitely Definitely, when it comes to dating, you're supposed to be Not shoot choosing, right? You…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Tara McGrath: supposed to be pursuing a dude. You're supposed to Be chosen.
Jeremy Schumacher: Right.
Tara McGrath: I don't know, just that there's a lot of Existing and waiting for things to happen to you, not decide that a lack of agency,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Tara McGrath: right? …
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Sure.
Tara McGrath: so sexes. One part of that. it also connects me, purity culture, I think is so connected with. All that stuff Body image and weight control and that stuff too. Right? the messages I maybe is getting better.
Jeremy Schumacher: I don't. Yes.
Tara McGrath: I don't know if that's getting better inside the church yet. it's getting better in our culture overall but certainly around you need to control your weight and control how you look.
Tara McGrath: For your husband, right?
Jeremy Schumacher: But You can't be too attractive otherwise you're causing people to stumble like it's just there's no winning.
Tara McGrath: right, yes, of course. Yeah, yeah. There's of course not. Yeah. Yeah. so,
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah, it's Super messy which is why we help people come out of it, right?
Tara McGrath: Yep.
Jeremy Schumacher: What does self-care kind of look like for you at this point in your life? working in the fields,…
Tara McGrath:
Jeremy Schumacher: you've been in the field for a long time, what do you kind of do to balance your mental health? How do you invest in yourself so that you can be helpful to clients?
Tara McGrath: Good question. I mentioned singing, so I've been on a little hiatus but I'm getting back into it. So I'm gonna be starting back all season in the chorus. I also do little things here and there with my wife, please guitar, she sings too. We actually met in the chorus but she also plays guitar which I definitely do not. And so sometimes we work on little things together like we're gonna do a song for our friends wedding coming up so that's cool. He's like that.
00:55:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Nice.
Tara McGrath: I go to yoga. Sometimes we do think I take walks? I would say my most consistent thing is I try to go for a walk almost every day. Just around my neighborhood. just like,
Tara McGrath: Some just do something to move and get outside, it's a mental health thing.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Tara McGrath: It's kind of a fitness thing, but more than anything, it is taking care of My mental health. Absolutely.
Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Which is, I mean, nice San Diego's experienced some weird weather. As with late Southern California getting hit by A Hurricane and…
Tara McGrath: yes, the hurricane. Yeah, yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: an earthquake. But yeah, I mean when you're in a nice environment where that's Most of the years supposed to be nice out.
Tara McGrath: I guess, yeah. Yeah, I do take it for granted. I'm telling you that and it doesn't as I'm saying,…
Jeremy Schumacher: You don't have to put snow shoes on to go outside.
Tara McGrath: and I just doesn't even occur to me that most people can't Do it. it is unusual that I wouldn't be able to just go for a walk outside most of the year. So that's…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Tara McGrath: what I do. Yeah, unless it's Hot or pouring rain or something? Then yes, most of the time I get to do That is the big advantage of living here. Yeah, another thing.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, for sure.
Tara McGrath: That I find super helpful and sometimes I come in and out of doing this, but I start my day. With a Notebook. And a one page.
Tara McGrath: journal. It's not really the right word for it. I basically have a small list of categories in my life that I kind of go down and see to see, do I need to address any of these things today? And what am I gonna do? And if I need to get some thoughts out, I might do that. but it's kind of, like, Okay, do for my business? What do I need to do for my kid? What do I need to do for the house? What do I need to do for Do I need to check in with my parents about something good? The dogs need anything? I haven't let's just about maybe 15 things long
Tara McGrath: I like doing that to center myself. I like doing it on paper because if I get on my phone it's like game over. I'm gonna be on Insta, I'm gonna be checking my email. I'm gonna be all over the place. So I really like just taking the notebook,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Tara McGrath: Go through those things. Decide what needs to get done that day?
Tara McGrath: I don't know. It helps me. Keep my brain organized. So yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Tara McGrath: That's one of my little self-care deals.
Jeremy Schumacher: Awesome. What are you reading?
Tara McGrath: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: What are you watching? what's going on in your free time?
Tara McGrath: I just started well,…
Jeremy Schumacher: You're downtime.
Tara McGrath: so reading I tend to audiobook read because I have a hard time sitting still and just reading
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Tara McGrath: I just started reading. The latest book from Kristen Neff about fear self compassion. That's what it's called.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yes, shout out. I should try and get Chris enough on she's awesome.
Tara McGrath: yeah, I'm really Totally.
Jeremy Schumacher: The self compassion work is great.
Tara McGrath: Love her. I'm huge on self compassion. It's like a cornerstone of the work that I do with people. I'm always coming back to it.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Tara McGrath: I think that Lack of self-compassion is often. The reason that people are having a tough time it just always seems to pop up. Whether it's Not being compassionate about yourself or…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Tara McGrath: not being compassionate about how your brains working. people getting upset with themselves for Having negative thoughts in the first place like okay that's just…
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Tara McGrath: how our brain works. we got to make peace with that and learn how to work with it. That kind of stuff. I started listening to her new book, that's what I'm reading right now. I watching, We've been watching the Padres lose, that's what we've been watching.
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure, I have a sports performance background. So I have a special place in my heart for the out group bias, that plagues organized religion, political parties, all these other things. I let it exist in sports because I'm like right.
Tara McGrath: Yeah. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Now I'm always gonna root for my hometown team. that's I don't know, less harmless in my opinion or more harmless in my opinion.
01:00:00
Tara McGrath: and I take special joy and knowing that my team is named after, Religious figures.
Jeremy Schumacher: The shirt. Yeah, we have the Milwaukee Brewers.
Tara McGrath: My friars. Yeah. Beer.
Jeremy Schumacher: So we're named after drinking.
Tara McGrath: Yeah. yeah. I don't think we're in any shows. Really? we started watching foundation. Have you seen that?
Jeremy Schumacher: I based on the Isaac Eisema,…
Tara McGrath: Yeah. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Asimov serious. I'm a sci-fi nerd. I haven't watched the show.
Tara McGrath: You have good for…
Jeremy Schumacher: I read the books.
Tara McGrath: Yeah, I like it so far.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Tara McGrath: I'm only a few episodes But my wife fell asleep during the last one so she has to watch it so that we can keep going and…
Jeremy Schumacher: For sure.
Jeremy Schumacher: Confusion. Yeah.
Tara McGrath: she hasn't watched that one so that I'm waiting. So we can keep going.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. being partnered and watching shows together causes a stress on relationships. Yeah.
Tara McGrath: It's a s* Come on. You can't watch it. We can go it. So yeah, yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: For Yeah. I always love to ask wait, because I think we as therapist needs therapy topic related book. So, sneaky way to sneak some resources and
Tara McGrath: Yeah, my wife's usually bothering. She's like, you need to read a novel. I'm like, I know, but there's so many things to read that I want to read time for novel. So
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, this has been awesome. Thanks so much for taking the time and…
Tara McGrath: Yeah, thank you.
Jeremy Schumacher: coming on today. Yeah.
Tara McGrath: It's It's been very fun. I appreciate it. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Podcast into that so hard or scary. Yeah.
Tara McGrath: No, no, it's been cool. Yeah. All right.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, And to all our regular listeners, most of you are therapist.
Tara McGrath: yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Work Value on Social Media.
Tara McGrath: Yeah. My website is,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Where do you find you?
Tara McGrath: it's just my name. So it's Tara Mcgrath.com. and on social media, I am Mostly on Instagram and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah,…
Tara McGrath: I'm at the agnostic therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: this is how we connected? Yes. So yeah, definitely go give a follow. I love it. Just a nerd out for one more second. I love the religious trauma community on Instagram because we just share each other's posts around because I was like, that's so good. I need to post that. So yes, go give a follow.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah. It's a nice little weird corner of the Internet that we're all very loving and supportive, which is great.
Tara McGrath: Yeah. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yes, so we'll have those in the show notes, so they're easy for people to find all my stuff as always is at wellness, with jared.com. Again, thanks, thanks so much for coming on. And thanks everybody for tuning in.
Tara McGrath: Thank you so much. Okay.
Jeremy Schumacher: All right, take care everybody.
Meeting ended after 01:03:45 👋