Jeremy is joined this week by author, poet and cryptonaturalist Jarod K Anderson. Jeremy and Jarod talk about the stigmas that still exist today around mental health, Jarod’s journey reconnecting to nature, and how we can connect with the magic of the natural world. Jarod shares some poetry, and talks about his upcoming book Something in the Woods Loves You.
Jarod has three collections of poetry available now: Field Guide to the Haunted Forest, Love Notes from the Hollow Tree, and the brand new Leaf Litter, all available here. You can find Jarod’s podcast about cryptids, The Cryptonaturalist, here, and enjoy new episodes as it has just kicked off a new season. And give Jarod a follow on Instagram to keep up to date with all his projects!
Jeremy has all his practice info at Wellness with Jer, and can be found on Instagram and YouTube.
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Podcasts about therapy do not replace actual therapy, and listening to a podcast about therapy does not signify a therapeutic relationship.
If you or someone you know is in crisis please call or text the nationwide crisis line at 988, or text HELLO to 741741. The Trevor Project has a crisis line for LGBTQ+ young people that can be reached by texting 678678.
Jeremy is joined this week by author, poet and cryptonaturalist Jarod K Anderson. Jeremy and Jarod talk about the stigmas that still exist today around mental health, Jarod’s journey reconnecting to nature, and how we can connect with the magic of the natural world. Jarod shares some poetry, and talks about his upcoming book Something in the Woods Loves You.
Jarod has three collections of poetry available now: Field Guide to the Haunted Forest, Love Notes from the Hollow Tree, and the brand new Leaf Litter, all available here. You can find Jarod’s podcast about cryptids, The Cryptonaturalist, here, and enjoy new episodes as it has just kicked off a new season. And give Jarod a follow on Instagram to keep up to date with all his projects!
Jeremy has all his practice info at Wellness with Jer, and can be found on Instagram and YouTube.
-----
Podcasts about therapy do not replace actual therapy, and listening to a podcast about therapy does not signify a therapeutic relationship.
If you or someone you know is in crisis please call or text the nationwide crisis line at 988, or text HELLO to 741741. The Trevor Project has a crisis line for LGBTQ+ young people that can be reached by texting 678678.
Your Therapist Needs Therapy - Jarod K Anderson Transcript
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson), Jeremy Schumacher
This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it was created.
Jeremy Schumacher: Think it's one that you use in your writing, but I think Society at large has some feelings about that word specifically.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, and…
Jeremy Schumacher: social constructs say your bank account has meaning
Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm
Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: And you were generous enough to share the first couple chapters of your fourth coming autobiography.
Jeremy Schumacher: social Norm of paycheck and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Came to a Forefront in your minds and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, and…
Jeremy Schumacher: When did some of the mental health stuff become apparent to you?
Jeremy Schumacher: therapy
Jeremy Schumacher: It's changed.
Jeremy Schumacher: Fingers crossed it's changed a bit…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: kind of that concept of meaning-making that things have meaning…
Jeremy Schumacher: if we can rewind a little bit if you don't mind…
Jeremy Schumacher: since the 80s.
Jeremy Schumacher: going on a nature walk was kind…
Jeremy Schumacher: what when
Jeremy Schumacher: climb the ladder and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Not just like a formal diagnosis,…
Jeremy Schumacher: because they make us feel something or…
Jeremy Schumacher: what helps break through some of that for you.
Jeremy Schumacher: get promotions and…
Jeremy Schumacher: although as a therapist needs.
Jeremy Schumacher: And…
Jeremy Schumacher: is this…
Jeremy Schumacher: illicit a response from us not necessarily because
Jeremy Schumacher: what I want to do for the next 30 Years really kind of
Jeremy Schumacher: you write about being an Academia and your depression kind of getting to that point where you couldn't ignore it anymore and realizing like hey this
Jeremy Schumacher: Hello and welcome to another episode of your rapy. I'm your host Jeremy Schumacher licensed marriage of family therapist. And today we have a special guest episode. I'm excited to have another author on the podcast today. I'm joined by Anderson, Jarod. Thanks for joining me.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Thanks so much for inviting me good to be here.
Jeremy Schumacher: You are I think my first poet author I've had a young adult author on I've had a comic book writer on we're broadening the Horizons by getting into the world of poetry.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah, I think I'm probably best known for poetry at this point, but I write null genres.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, you got a little bit of everything. We'll get into that for listeners who know me and my ADHD we cover a lot of ground in these conversations. So I always start with kind of how'd you get where you're at? What was your journey to the point where you're a published author and you're writing and you're doing what brought you to that point in your life?
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): I've always been sort of a book a word nerd. And then I came back to college as a non-traditional student sort of in my 20s. I went to you when I was 18 decided College wasn't for me and then left for I don't know. I guess almost a decade. Then started taking evening classes and I just got sucked back in and did a bachelor as in English and then a masters in literature.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): And then the Masters was enough to tell me that I didn't want to be an academic. so I had been accepted to a couple PHD programs and…
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): had this overwhelming feeling of I'm gonna do four more years of this which I realized I had a Moment of clarity and realized that was not to attitude to take me through a PhD
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): So I ended up sort of Shifting to nonprofit work and marketing and on the side. I've always had my sort of little pet projects I started the crypto naturalist podcast, which it's a nature show about fictional nature. I sometimes call it a real love for fictional nature. And that was kind of my little side project it and grew along with. the popularity of my poetry on social media and there was this point the University where I was working as a director of external relations doing marketing and.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): they were in a budget Crunch and my hobby was starting to make enough money that with the support of my partner. I just kind of stepped away and started focusing on the creative work and that's carried me through for the last four years. Yeah, so
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): I struggle when somebody asks me what I do. Yeah cocktail party or something because it's like I have collections of nature poetry. I do a strange podcast. I'm very active on social media,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): but it's hard to explain.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, for What was the I don't know if Catalyst right word. But your love of words, was that something introduced to you as a child. Was there a parent or role model who was kind of introduced into the wide worlds of literature that stuck with you?
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Fifth grade. I had a teacher named Miss Woolard and it was in sort of a rural part of Ohio and she was a lover of poetry and would take a class for the fifth graders just out into the woods behind the school and she would say just go find a place to sit. and right so, I was 10 and fell in love with nature poetry then and haven't stopped So I've been writing poems about nature pretty regularly for. Thirty two years. That would make it. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Shout out to miss Willard.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): She's very not online, but I sent her a letter the other day.
Jeremy Schumacher: That's tremendous. what kind of got you into the world of podcasting? I listened to the podcast and I'm familiar with the Night Vale podcast. So I know you drew from that a little bit of it's kind of a fictional it's real but it's fake but it's kind of an interesting premise.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah, it was. I've always loved audio fiction. So I've always had a rough struggle with insomnia. and as a kid, I had a flat tape deck in my room and I would rent or borrow audiobooks from the library that came in big puffy cases full of cassette tapes and so I just have a long history of sort of laying in the dark listening to audio fiction and then that evolved from audiobooks to when audio dramas became a thing through podcasting and As somebody who likes to make stuff, I just had that moment of realizing that a USB microphone isn't that complicated? And this wouldn't be Out Of Reach for me to take a shot at so Yeah, I dove in.
00:05:00
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah, I figured that leaving aside factual information would let me kind of embrace the idea that the podcast was about enthusiasm. Which gave me permission to be a hundred percent focused on the enthusiasm. Where is the facts are generated kind of by my own Whimsy and Imagination.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah, sorry, did I do the question?
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): I'm sure.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): you don't say yes very much. and I have feelings about it, but I've struggled with chronic major depression for 30 years and also ADHD and insomnia and
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): I found it to be this big stumbling blocked in my healing that I was always looking for. I was very science minded and still am and so I was always looking for sort of the objectively correct way to be well.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): And then the older I got the more I poured myself into my art. The more I realized that meaning was a craft.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): It more than a found thing in the world. that how is not a why? And then when I started to I Came Upon that idea intellectually and I started playing with this idea of magic as imbuing my own sort of subjective homemade meaning with weight. and I liked that term for that it felt evocative in a way that felt true to me in that special way that I was matters, especially in terms of Mental Health. That it kind of jives with my belief system.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): And I think of sort of words as magic and that is the one that kind of sparkled for me as I was looking for words to describe. That at very particular feeling of imbuing the meaning I make with weight and purpose. and so magic for me became kind of shorthand for that
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): that feeling that not everything that is worthwhile or meaningful or I don't know vitally important is necessarily something that can be explained and objective terms or uncovered with repeatable experiments and so for me magic started to occupy that important but abstract area of my own brain if that makes sense.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): right, right, I mean and It's so easy to fall into those social construct patterns that sort of meaning, made by various institutions for various purpose Various purposes that often aren't aimed at your Wellness, and if we talk about value being tied to money. Then I guess it's not cool to appreciate rain, our spoil or sort of the fundamental aspects of the natural world that Keep Us Alive and that strange gap between our kind of cultural norms of value. And then what is What I might say actually valid valuable about the Earth, that Discord that arises from there. Kind of Demands an answer. I think at least from my own.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): internal struggle to map meaning in the world
00:10:00
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah, I mean. I said that after I left Academia, I struggled to get a job with a coordinator title and then a manager title and then a director title and ostensibly it's like I'm doing it and yet my mental health had reached a point where I just wanted to die every day. I just every hour
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): I don't know that I could have articulated it and words, but I think it finally came home that somehow my definition of success had become completely divorced from happiness. just happiness is too strong a word just being okay even and then yeah, I do. I vividly remember and I write about in that book the time. I went for a walk in the woods sort of from my own health.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): for me I grew up with a mom that called the woods her church. And we would do nature walks almost every day and talk about what was blooming or what wasn't and we were not a religious family, but that kind of all sort of.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): I don't know smacked of the Sacred to me in one way or another so when I return to it as an adult. there was sort of that epiphany of this is all still here and I've just been ignoring it and I do remember I was walking next to a shallow River and encountered a blue heron and just seeing it on a winter day just totally reduced me to tears. To the point where I realized. I've turned away from this core part of myself this fundamental part of myself. And it was a rough experience, but it was also very hopeful because it was, realizing that it hadn't gone anywhere. I had just turned away as I had let my priorities and that definition of success get totally out of sync with what was good for me as a human being
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): true
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): I mean It takes their different phases of that because as a little kid, I was recommended to therapy for ADHD and for depression and anger and I did not have parents that believed in formal therapy very well. so I think I went to a session and didn't particularly like it and my parents were like, yeah, and so I think I never went back as a kid.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): And even now I try to gently suggest sometimes that my mom cries therapy and she was kind of like I tried it in the 80s and didn't like it well.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah, that's so I believe we talked about depression when I was 9 10 years old and ADHD. And then as I got older. It mostly became a conversation I would have with a primary care physician. So, over the years. I tried a lot of antidepressants, but that was the beginning and the end of it. until
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): sort of around the time I stepped away from Academia. I finally sought out therapy in a very rough patch of depression. And I had a doctor say you'll probably have to shop around and for whatever reason that was news to me. the idea that I would have a fit with certain practitioners and perhaps not with others and the first couple therapist
00:15:00
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): and part of it was I didn't know what questions to ask. I went to somebody who sort of asked ended questions and then sort of affirmed my feelings about it and it's like no, I want sort of challenged on things and I want sort of. Buy into the process. So then I finally came to a guy and by that time I was like, hey, my doctor had kind of suggested to me that medication plus CBT was a good combination perhaps for me. And this person had CBT kind of in their profile. So I was like, hey, can you explain to me what CBT is and how you use it in your practice? And so that was a good conversation and then he was very much like hey, this is how I work and will figure out if we work well together. And that guy's name is Mark. I've been with him for years and
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): the good news is I found a fit but boy in the deepest depths of depression the idea of shopping for the intricacies of insurance in America and when you are feeling you're at your worst is not a time when you want to rehash everything about your illness over and over but I gotta say it was worth it. So, I find on somebody.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah, I mean honestly, I think it goes back to the thing. I alluded to earlier of that idea of finding things that kind of resonate with your own kind of internal compass for what is true. I've learned that the therap can do a lot to kind of influence my inner climate but that kind of initial Okay, I can work with this feeling when a concept is presented, if something feels completely artificial to me or toxic positivity. I can't seem to then get to a point where I can add it to my toolbox for dealing with so, the good news it seems like there are a lot of different approaches to any concept with depression and mental illness, so the thing that will resonate is out there but the shopping can be a little exhausting sometimes,
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): I took my partner Leslie with me to a session once and so she met my therapist and Mark is a guy with long right here hair and a long Gray beard and he likes to go to the Smoky Mountains and he has a forge at home and he looks like a mountain man that somebody just captured and brought to a therapy office and as we left Leslie was like where did you find this guy? It seems like he wished him into existence I shopped around, Till I found somebody who I felt like we understood each other. and I've done research since about therapy and different data points for what determines successful therapy and
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): I forget the study. But the idea that you feel like your therapist an ally being one of the sort of prime indicators for positive outcomes kind of stuck with me. I wish I'd read that before I went into the hunt for therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah, It's embarrassing too. I mean, I think that the stigma was holding me back as well that I could go to my family doctor because if I sat in the waiting room of the family doctor nobody would look at me and think that person has mental health issues
00:20:00
Jeremy Schumacher: and It's fascinating.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): they might be here for a more respectable Melody,…
Jeremy Schumacher: I think I talk about that often with medication.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): you…
Jeremy Schumacher: It's a journey usually it's some trial and…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): and I think it actually probably helped smooth the path a little bit for me that my doctor was like,…
Jeremy Schumacher: error. It's not an exact science, but I think culturally we think of going to see the doctor as an exact science.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): hey go find A CBT specialist.
Jeremy Schumacher: We think about something like psychology maybe not it's kind of the red-headed stepchild of science,…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): All right. kind of its own prescription
Jeremy Schumacher: but the idea that this isn't exact science and there's an art to therapy in addition to the science and finding that balance is important and then finding that fit on my website I have if I'm your 15th therapist and…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): I have three so it'll be a miracle if they don't pipe up at some point.
Jeremy Schumacher: they've done a lot of therapist and none of it's really helped or…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Okay. Yep.
Jeremy Schumacher: vibe. Them so that happens sometimes.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yep.
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah, I think there's a generational divide but even amongst that divide. Yes. I mean, I live a small town in Ohio and move to a different kind of small town in,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Ohio, and I absolutely feel that. And honestly, it's one reason I write about it and…
Jeremy Schumacher: I like to joke with self-help books too.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): talk about it publicly so much.
Jeremy Schumacher: It's all same information. It's just package differently because different people need the different packaging ultimately that's…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): partly because you…
Jeremy Schumacher: why there's so much of that…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): I don't know…
Jeremy Schumacher: because everybody's brain needs it in a little bit of a different way.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): why it's so stigmatized…
Jeremy Schumacher: I tend to be a visual learner.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): because every time I pipe up about it even in a room,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Some people are auditory.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): …
Jeremy Schumacher: Some people are experiential.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): I'll bring it up meeting new folks somewhere and…
Jeremy Schumacher: So all those things matter in how we're learning to integrate these things into our lives.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): There might be a beat of Silence but then a whole bunch of other people are like, yeah me too like yeah, I'm struggling right now or I found a therapist. People start comparing the medications that work for them. I mean, there's just no reason for the silence. It's just so common and so affirming and helpful to have a community built around it. and then I get notes, I think I'm approaching 250,000 followers on social media now, so inevitably when I post something about depression I get notes from folks and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): one of the prevalent ones is I'll get
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): messages from men saying that they find it helpful to see kind of a man talking about it as well because I think there's another layer of stigma there. Kind of tied into toxic masculinity and not talking about emotions and being kind of quiet and self-possessed.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): right Yeah,…
Jeremy Schumacher: the overarching evidence is your relationship your fit with your therapist and…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): I think it's that simple sometimes that was actually the book I'm finishing up right now.
Jeremy Schumacher: again, that's just a weird. We don't have that in the insurance-based medical model in America you don't think about …
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): It's called something in the woods loves you and It's kind of an autobiography.
Jeremy Schumacher: I like my doctor you just go see One who's a network and…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): It's just sort of my story with struggling with mental illness and…
Jeremy Schumacher: they prescribe something and that's what it is and…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): connecting with nature…
Jeremy Schumacher: therapy is not that.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): but through that I talk about toxic masculinity and stigmas around mental health and I talked I mean the refrain in that book is depression defends itself that I just always found a new reason to ignore the depression or…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): to minimize it or I often say that shame is the biggest weapon.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): My depression has for defending itself. And there are so many, metaphors that come to me about it. One of them that I kind of joke that sometimes resonates with men I talked to is
Jeremy Schumacher: right yeah, and I know you're in, Ohio.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): It's like the idea that you have to get into shape before you go to the gym that …
Jeremy Schumacher: There goes my dogs barking at nature probably or…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): I don't want to go to a therapist needs.
Jeremy Schumacher: the mailman one of the two I'm gonna make a note to edit this.
Jeremy Schumacher: It's almost a hundred percent when I'm in the shower,…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): But it's that being haunted by an imaginary idealized version of yourself.
Jeremy Schumacher: they'll bark at something. So then I have that Panic of …
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): And so you're always fall short of that.
Jeremy Schumacher: no what's going on? I can't do anything about it or when I'm recording.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): And so that version might deserve therapy or might deserve to go to the gym.
Jeremy Schumacher: I know you're in Ohio and…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): But the slacking version.
Jeremy Schumacher: in the midwest I talk it's still in 2023 almost 20 24 now a bit of a stigma about going to therapy…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): He doesn't deserve anything,
00:25:00
Jeremy Schumacher: where my experience and interacting with a therapist and West Coast. It's weird to not have a therapist. People move from the coast and…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: they're like, I need a therapist and I move so now I need a new one and I don't think in the midwest. I don't know of Ohio has that kind of vibe, but that's true in Wisconsin for sure that there's still some stigma attached to it even now.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah, I mean, I see it even amongst close friends, I'll bring up having a particularly rough time with depression. I mean this winter has been hard for me for whatever reason I have I think a bit of the seasonal affect thrown in there as well.
Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): But even people I'm close with if they don't relate to mental health. They're sort of a Twist to their faces sometimes and I think what it is is just There isn't a ready-made kind of mainstream social script for how to answer folks to talk about mental illness, it's kind of more like …
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): that's not one of the agreed-upon topics.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): And so as much as I feel like I can influence anything as a writer.
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): It's that I can the very least talk openly about, a lot of the struggles that Define my life and Define a lot of other people's lives.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Sure.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. right And you've got a manly beard and…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): That's honestly why this book is happening. Is a nonfiction publisher Timber press out of Portland there part of his shed?
Jeremy Schumacher: you were talking about, nature and chopping wood right. I think there's some of those cultural stigmas attached photos …
Jeremy Schumacher: if this person who kind of looks like me a represents a version of myself is talking about it,…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): kind of approached me and…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): said hey, have you ever thought about writing a nonfiction book and I already had an outline and…
Jeremy Schumacher: then it's okay.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): some chapters Because of the volume of messages I get one kind wanting to talk about mental illness and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): my experience with it. It was I can't have the long conversation with everybody that I want to have so. I was already in the process of putting it into book form that I was probably just gonna put out there myself when a publisher approached me and it's like funny you should ask. so
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): right
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah, I was terrified when I finally was just gonna say decided…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): but really gently pushed toward seeking help especially by Leslie when I finally went to seek help I was terrified of talking about suicide partly because I didn't know what would trigger more, intrusive interventions.
Jeremy Schumacher: right yeah,…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): It's like, all right. what's gets…
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah and…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): you…
Jeremy Schumacher: you write about it in those early chapters,…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): putting a cell without shoelaces. I didn't know I only knew that Freedom was at stake…
Jeremy Schumacher: which I got to read and also talked about it earlier that waiting room idea of there's appropriate and…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): if I said the wrong thing, so even when I moved into spaces…
Jeremy Schumacher: inappropriate maladies like mental health we can't see it.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): where theoretically I thought I should be able to be open it was difficult for me.
Jeremy Schumacher: I work with athletes a lot. And so the kids who's got a concussion gets treated differently…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): And you…
Jeremy Schumacher: because no one can see it versus the kid who's in a walking boot…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): I just had grown up with that idea that.
Jeremy Schumacher: because everyone can see the injury and…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): As you said earlier alright…
Jeremy Schumacher: so kind of these invisible wounds or…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): if there's a physical Melody. Okay, we can talk about that.
Jeremy Schumacher: these invisible hurts get treated differently in our society.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): But if there's a mental malady
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Suddenly, it's not of It's an issue of the cell the identity, We have this. amazing ability to uphold this kind of magical thinking that our bodies are physical things and it's okay for them to get sick or for them to be affected by the outside world or sustained injury, but we do not like to think of our minds as part of that physicality or part of the natural world because The magical thinking often says that all right. our bodies though.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): It's the bus that drives around the real us. So if the bus breaks down that's not a reflection of us, but a problem with the mind is a problem of identity of the real you and that's I think Too much of a threat for a lot of people to look at directly.
00:30:00
Jeremy Schumacher: And I think that's what's really powerful when you have someone who's experienced it writing about it and someone who's good with words helps but as practitioners we say thing.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): right
Jeremy Schumacher: I tell people all time depression lies to you. I say anxiety is a liar and it's kind of like Get it outside of your body and think of it as this other entity and those are things but when someone is writing about it who's experience that I think is different than hearing it from a professional or a practitioner who may be knows about it because they read it in a book, but it hasn't super experienced it.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah. I mean, bless their hearts then amount of comments. I get along those lines when I post about depression of just willpower. Have you tried to just mind over matter. Have you tried to just kind of think your way out of it? It's like
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): That thinking is kind of where the shame comes in the idea that you can just shrug it off that it isn't an organ of the body. it's a function of willpower. no, it's not and if I had a cold I wouldn't suddenly feel immense shame that my cells were starting to, reproduce cold viruses,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): so Why would depression be any different? partly because we don't talk about it partly…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, which is awesome. I mean, it's in some of the poems you write the post you put online.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): because of this idea that our minds are you…
Jeremy Schumacher: It's in the forthcoming book the way you talk about depression is I just wanted to die every day sometimes every hour and…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): are essentially our identities and if those get sick Suddenly It's a moral issue as much as anything else and…
Jeremy Schumacher: again, even in the Mental Health Community,…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): that's something to be hidden.
Jeremy Schumacher: I hear that stuff normally because I'm a therapist the word depression, but let's not talk about suicide. there's still kind of those imaginary boundaries or those lines. So I think someone speaking openly about it helps other people be like, I can open up about that. I thought that was too bad or I thought that was just me.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): No.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): I think nature is a powerful guidepost for folks too, especially when you start to feel like a lot of the Cultural or normative things in your life that have betrayed you start to feel, first and foremost arbitrary. It may be malignant and arbitrary but arbitrary and so there's this feeling of like, okay, How do I get back to something foundational and essential and It's hard to argue that meeting nature where it is is anything other than essential and foundational?
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): And going back to that kind of starting point to…
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): then feel for the edges of yourself and start to reconceptualize your identity feels discredibly medicinal to me. I always hasten to say that when I talk about nature and depression. I am never one of those people that will be like,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah, and it's fascinating.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): go touch a tree…
Jeremy Schumacher: I talk about mental health is physical health.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): you'll feel better. No, that's not me…
Jeremy Schumacher: Your brain is an organ in the same way.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): but I say in one of the poems that time in nature for me doesn't heal depression,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Your kidneys are an organ and you can't control them anymore. Then you can control your brain. You learn how to respond based on…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): but it changes it from
Jeremy Schumacher: what your body's telling you if you're low on insulin,…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Kind of an all-encompassing pain to just a tile in the mosaic.
Jeremy Schumacher: we have diabetes or something you respond to the symptoms you are having and…
Jeremy Schumacher: learn how to manage it so that your body does what it's geared to be doing that happens with our brain too.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah, I can feel it as one of the sensations…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): but not the sensation the defining sensation of my life.
Jeremy Schumacher: I think right there's this idea of I can control it or through sheer will and determination. I can choose to be happy like nope.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): And it one way. I know that I'm struggling is when Leslie starts to shoot me out of the house and…
Jeremy Schumacher: That's not how it works.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): ask questions. what was the last time you took a walk in the woods to go? Do I have that look on my face? Okay.
Jeremy Schumacher: And to the overlap between neurodivergence having ADHD and depression obviously the Venn diagram a lot of that is overlapped, but I think to if you're a dopamine deficient being out in nature provides dopamine for you, there's so much stimulation that goes on for hearing bird song for feeling the wind in your face for feeling the ground crunch Beneath Your Feet versus concrete or sterile office space or those things. that's not a stimulating as being out in nature is right
00:35:00
Jeremy Schumacher:
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah, and I've had to kind of explain some of those stimuli needs to focus over the years when they'll catch Sitting on a couch listening to an audiobook playing a video game and I will have stolen a hair dryer from the bathroom and have a hair dryer blowing on me. It's something just like I just need enough reason to draw my senses in different directions,…
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I think the more of it is fascinating I come from a very conservative Christian upbringing.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): or It's like a mouse.
Jeremy Schumacher: Left the church and…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): That's teeth never stopped growing.
Jeremy Schumacher: that's when I really reconnected with nature.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): It's like I just have to chew in order to protect myself.
Jeremy Schumacher: So there's overlap with your story although a routes that we took to kind of get to similar places. Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): It feels like sometimes.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): and yeah,…
Jeremy Schumacher: But for me that connection with nature was always there in a way that church didn't provide it…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): I mean Being a nature wakes up a lot of senses for me that they don't feel like they're ever engaged kind of indoors in a way that is kind of hard to describe,…
Jeremy Schumacher: but it was bad or wrong or I don't know it was what message I absorbed as a child that made me disconnect from my own body and…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): but I feel it when I encounter it.
Jeremy Schumacher: my own experiences, but it was one of those things where being out in nature going for nature walks in Yeah, I know for me like fire and…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: in your forthcoming book you talk about getting a bird feeders. water are very stimulating for me because they're always moving and right.
Jeremy Schumacher:
Jeremy Schumacher: right. there's the sports stadium we just coached or…
Jeremy Schumacher: right.
Jeremy Schumacher: right.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: I've right.
Jeremy Schumacher: I've found that explanation makes a lot of sense to people. We're like, I have a stand-up paddle board and for me when I'm right. I did that squirrels everything got into a spat with a neighbor about all the swallows that are in the yard now, so all these things to kind of reconnect it and again, I think whether it's mental health whether it's Big T trauma or Little T trauma neurodivergence, they're all these things that write like, what are we connecting to or the things that are providing meaningful to us or Burnt out or I'm really needing to kind of decompress like I want to be out on the water and it's just one of those things for me. that's very healing again and kind of that sacred sort of way where even if I'm in downtown Milwaukee River Flows right through downtown, but I'm in nature, I'm surrounded by water. I can see…
Jeremy Schumacher:
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher:
Jeremy Schumacher: stadium and here these skyscrapers but like me right now, I'm on the water. Theres there's seagulls. There's all these things going on and it can be even in the city incredibly powerful. and so I think indoctrinated in some of these things? Thinking those terms of what stimulation What do you need to connect with grounding as a literal? Not just a metaphorical term.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah. Yeah, I often sit by a campfire and I have a friend who sarcastically calls it Cowboy TV. Because yeah,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): I can just sit and look at a fire forever. I've started to try to take sort of monthly camping trips and It helps me reset and oddly especially when it's cold. I like to sit by a campfire…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): because then the fire itself feels more vital. And I like the sensation of my back being cold and my front being almost too warm,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): and yeah, I can just stare at a fire for all for an entire night.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah, I think you've hit on something too about the idea that the river in Milwaukee counts his nature.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): That's something I feel folks struggle with too is we all encounter,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): in certain spaces a lot of talk about going to Nature and coming to nature for mental health, But then there's this internal gatekeeper a lot of people have in terms of what counts as nature. It's like if I can't make it to an old growth forest than you…
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): I can't participate in this conversation. Whereas all I mean are there trees planted, along the sidewalk because they're liking on the bark you can zoom into your own hands that's nature. or sometimes, I
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Can just sort of indulge and Imagination I can try to wonder how far I am from the closest orca. I can just sort of reconceptualize the plan that I'm on and…
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Whatever is blocking my view. It doesn't block the fact of where I am and engaging and that kind of imagination exercise. I can reach the same kind of feeling of connecting with nature.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah that to the We are our human bodies or the size of the universe, but we are the size of an atom in the universe at large zooming way out. Shift the perspective for sure.
Jeremy Schumacher: You're in Ohio. We're both in the midwest, which is kind of a Unique geography. I think there's no mountains. There's pretty limited. No rainforests things like that where and kind of your day-to-day are you close to a park? Do you live near nature that you have easy access to even if you're rural still being near civilization. How do you connect on a regular basis?
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah, I mean I live on a tiny one-way Road between a park that was a civil war training camp. I'm looking at it now and the other side is a cemetery.
Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): That is also an arboretum that I share a rusty barbed wire fence with. so I can walk down my little one-way Street and I walk over to the cemetery and the trees are all labeled with these little silver tags and I can kind of walk around and test my knowledge of native trees and I will do that on a lot of days and then I'm near I don't know. six or seven great kind of parks or they'll be 300 acres of woods and they'll be a couple paths and Depending on how much energy I have on a day. I'll take the path or I'll just go straight across country across the woods because I find.
00:40:00
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Leaving the path to where I have to kind of pick my foot placement and crunch in the leaf litter. that helps on rough Russian days,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): because there's another level of Engagement to the activity. And that's a good thing about winter is I don't get sudden spider webs in my eyelashes.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yes, fewer Birds sticking to you.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah, and I'm just tall enough that I can walk on the path after somebody and still get spider webs in the face. So yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I have two little boys and we have two dogs in the house. And so we let the five year old pick the path through the woods recently and it was a much much different Journey. I'm six three my wife six one. he found some paths that were hard for us tall folks to get through but it just a different experience for this path. We kind of take our dogs through for their nature walk and their daily exercise and stimulation and going off the path again, just a much different experience.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah, I have a four year old my son and I love one of my favorite activities now is taking him to the woods and just letting him go first because I'm curious about what we'll draw his interest and getting to follow him is sort of getting to put on the perspective of a newcomer again in a way that I find I don't nourishing.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): All right, at my age, sometimes I have to intentionally cultivate Wonder with the natural world because some of the most amazing things are so commonplace now that we have to meet them halfway to sense the magic but a four-year-old doesn't so,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): following him around and in the summer just seeing him shake with excitement over a Bumblebee and It's like correct, you can reteach me…
Jeremy Schumacher: And it's fascinating as they learn animals and…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): how to feel that. I think so.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): It's
Jeremy Schumacher: how they connect and all those things. We do know mo may I'm in the city and so, that we're the annoying neighbors on our block who don't mow for an entire month. everyone else's paying for their Lawn Service. It's like Why are we doing that? let's get some native plants back.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Let's get the bees and the birds and all these things so because right the city can be very disconnecting and Cultivating your space whether it's a garden or…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: it's a path or it's a certain tree like connecting to that for whatever you have available is important I think.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): I have a fairly big yard, and I've lived here about three years, but I have not managed to replace all of the non-native Landscaping yet. I mean I Forsythia is one that is sort of a daunting task for me. It's just tough and invasive and
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): but I've come to sort of think of it as a lesson in terms of avoiding All or Nothing thinking or kind of like the Purity politics and what species are in my yard tomorrow I'm volunteering at a woodland pulling invasive plants probably especially honeysuckle. but in my own yard sometimes I do not have the energy to maintain the size of the yard I have so I've been doing addition rather than subtractions sometimes, you…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): I keep adding new trees and native plants, but
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): I haven't defeated all of the Forsythia yet. I mean I did one and it broke two shovels and I ended up having to use a pickaxe that was sharpened on a Grime. I mean, it's just amazing amount of work to get rid of this one plant. And so every time I look at them, it's like all right.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): I can do good without being perfect. it's kind of a struggle.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): I have to manage anytime. I look out at the space that Theoretically I control but I kind of don't have the energy to own it. Completely frankly,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): .
Jeremy Schumacher: In nature is a good reminder that we have limited spheres of influence. Our control is not as vast as we like to pretend it is.
00:45:00
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Your work I think also tabs into nature as a metaphor. There's so many narratives and stories we can tell as things like the changing of the seasons or a storm rolling in comparing that to our mental health or Seasons or chapters of our life. I think that narrative basis is really helpful for people not just the stimulation of being outdoors, but how we can tell ourselves stories.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah, I lean on brain weather quite a bit as a central metaphor for my depression. and it's useful to me because of the way it Dodges shame. It's reconceptualizing depression as something that's natural. It's a known thing. a thunderstorm might wreck your plans for a picnic, but the thunderstorm isn't a reflection on you as a person. You didn't invite it. You don't own it. It doesn't hate you. It's not a monster, so.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): So when I think of my depression in terms of brain weather as a storm as any kind of inclement weather, it's like what can I do? All right, I can dress for the weather. I can find new shelters, I can try to sharpen my forecasts. But it still doesn't mean that if I get caught in a downpour I've done something wrong or I've failed as a person there, I'm broken and some essential way. Because I don't control the weather and bad weather isn't evidence that the world is malicious. it's a natural phenomenon.
Jeremy Schumacher: right that you have failed or wronged somehow to create or bring on the bad weather.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Right, right. I think it's a Scandinavian saying that there's no bad weather only bad clothes. And wow,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): that doesn't quite hold one to one with depression. It does mean that if I have a day where I just can't manage to shower or maybe I can't get out of bed or I'm having trouble feeding myself I can think of that as all right. I'm Sheltering under a big tree the weather is incredibly bad today, but One of the things about weather is it changes that comes in cycles and seasons? and so That is very helpful. Especially as somebody who has struggled with suicidal ideation. It's like it gets us away from that feeling that my pain is evidence to the world isn't worth it in one way or another.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): If it's weather, it's like all right. we endure weather. We wait for the weather to clear,…
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): and we recognize that it's a thing of its Dynamic. that it's a thing that inevitably has a change on the So yeah, the weather metaphor is one nature nature metaphor I reach for a lot. But of…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and I talk about Seasons all the time.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): you'll find a lot of them in my poetry though.
Jeremy Schumacher: I think culturally we're wintering is a concept I see people talk about and post a lot about now more than I feel like it ever has been before but just kind of a recognized recognization that there's a time to rest and recover and that's natural and healthy not like productivity 24/7 all the time 365 that's unsustainable.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah, productivity and efficiency there are two words that have haunted me over the years especially as somebody who wants to Do it right is I've wanted to be successful in a way that made my parents proud or that was easy to explain or protected me from criticism would be another way to put it. and so, I Write full-time now. So I'm self-employed. I feel guilty if I sleep in. It's just something that's just like a hardwired.
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): It doesn't matter if there's a reason or not. So,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): I'll feel the feeling kind of notice it and sort of smile at it. I see you there which it's a mark of progress for me and getting better at noticing and conversing with my own thoughts. But
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): but it is that reminder that all of these things that I've internalized over the years like they're in there and I don't notice them at my parable. and one thing that writing has given me is
00:50:00
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): lot of these Concepts So very slippery. and until Write them down.
Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): engage with them
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Thank you froze up for just a second.
Jeremy Schumacher: I know that's where we
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): But I think you're back. Okay.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Okay.
Jeremy Schumacher: I don't know why I'm on ethernet, so I don't know. I should be weatherproofed.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah, I know. Okay. Yeah,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Okay.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): I'm Alright. What was the last thing you heard me say?
Jeremy Schumacher: Until you write some of these Concepts until you write them down.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Okay, yeah. yeah, so writing is a huge way that I won't say that I've made friends with my mental health issues, but I've learned to find a way to kind of synthesize pain into art in a way that feels like powerful Alchemy on my side where it's all right. some of my favorite poems have come from some of my worst days and there's something about that The changes that brain weather into something that makes the flowers grow as well. and that's a wonderful way to shift the narrative.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Because I firmly believe we understand ourselves and our place in the world through stories and the lovely kind of merciful thing about that is that we can pick a hand in the stories and shape them and make stories that we need. Or make stories that serve us when we can notice the stories that don't.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): And so that's kind of a way that I think of writing itself is going back to that magic word that you brought up earlier.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and meaning making as a dynamic process not as a monolith or a static thing that's set but that we can tell new stories. We authors parts of Our Own Story. We can do some different things with it in the context of a narrative or a story instead of Capital T truth whether that's a religious Doctrine or a science Dogma or…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: wherever that's coming from that that's not always what's most helpful for us.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah, and we don't just have to pick from a menu.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Of the options that are maybe right at our fingertips.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I'm gonna put you on the spot…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): So when we're looking for meaning
Jeremy Schumacher: but the years of therapy and I get curious what have you noticed because we talked about both having younger kids. Have you noticed kind of a difference in the way you parent based on you your own perceived experience of when I was that age, I don't know that I had a role model respond in this way or I don't like and repairing but does it feel kind of as a mutual process that kind of both going on at the same time?
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah, absolutely. Even something like crying. I feel like I probably would have been scolded for crying for one reason or another and my son Arthur he's only four but whenever he cries I try to hold his hand and sit with him and say hey, are you sad or are you angry and I always am just like that's all right,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): we can wait it out. We can talk about it. So even just trying not to send signals that some emotions are okay and some aren't at the moment. I mean that basic but every time that happens. I kind of feel like it's a departure from some of my upbringing And you…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): I was a kid that had a lot of anger issues and looking back on it. It's probably because
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): With ADHD was hard for me to concentrate. It was hard for me to follow instructions. I don't recall any kind of interventions or…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): anything other than Hey, yeah, we think you have this. And I would occasionally have a teacher that would let me put on headphones or go to the coat rack or something like but it was hodgepodge. And so, I think it's very frustrating.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): so trying to affirm and just sort of be there with him with his emotions and Also, compared to sort of previous generations. I have no agenda for what I want him to do or be. I really don't so the way that Leslie and I talk about it. We're just like I can't wait to learn more about what he's interested in I don't care. I'll be happy to dive into whatever,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): he wants to learn about her or participate in. I'm just kind of excited to have another path to follow him on to go back to our Woods conversation.
00:55:00
Jeremy Schumacher: right Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): So both of those things feel pretty different from the way it was raised.
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, and it hits I don't know if this is an ADHD thing where we're thinking all these multiple thoughts the same time but it's like you can be present while your parenting and it can hit for you internally of What would that have not like if that was my experience when I was a kid?
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah, absolutely. and it is strange to try to kind of go back and Relitigate your own belief systems based on that. I mean I know this with deconstruction and
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): I have a friend locally who sought me out because he enjoyed my poetry and I started, getting a coffee with him every so often and he was raised Evangelical and has gone through deconstruction.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): It's sort of taught me about that process. It's been interesting to find parallels too. Because I think if I was involved in any kind of Orthodoxy that I had to break down it was more of that sort of like science-based objective
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): The observable world is…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): what matters and I don't have time for kind of Flights of Fancy. That sounds bizarre coming from me. but I think there is sort of a kind of almost self-esteem element to making your own mean kind of only works if you're willing to respect. your authority to make meaning
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): which is itself kind of a journey of growth.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and in deconstruction work, especially I do a lot of reconstruction and people get hung up on. then it's just arbitrary right. It's always just been arbitrary. You just weren't aware of it before.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah, the thing is people confuse arbitrary with meaningless.
Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): It's like we know that we make first of all meaning we make is the only way human meaning doesn't exist in the universe without us and sometimes it tickles me that I'll say something like that and people will say that's Grim or that's dark or that's saying that the universe is meaningless, and I'm like, no, it's not it's saying that if there were no humans in the world, it's sad that there are no top hats like…
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): what do you mean top hats or something we make for human purposes like
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Or it's sad that honey isn't here waiting for bees when they arrive no bees make honey for bee purposes.
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Human meaning is the thing we make for ourselves the same way. We don't have fur or claws or fangs, but we have the ability to construct shelter and tools Meaning is one of the tools we make so of course it matters. It's vitally important. It just isn't waiting to be plucked right from a tree of course it isn't…
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): but It's like a self-esteem thing again. It's Okay,…
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): but it doesn't count if we make it. It's like …
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): no, it counts more that we make it, especially if we make it with intention. And especially if we make it compared to if we just default. to what somebody wants to tell us for whatever purpose of you…
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): financial gain or control or
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): to uncritically accept somebody else's meaning that's not more uplifting to me Especially once you reach that point when you understand that no human meaning isn't woven into the fabric of the universe.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): It's a craft. And that doesn't make it less beautiful or…
Jeremy Schumacher: right Yeah,…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): potent. It just makes it human.
Jeremy Schumacher: and I agree. I think when you get to that space of being aware of it and intentional I talk about congruents a lot as our feelings and our thoughts align with our behaviors all yeared under our value system and that's when we feel really good. We just don't occupy that space all that often.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: And so when we can get there, it feels pretty good.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: And so meaning making as a dynamic process as a relational process. Is really awesome when you can lean into it that way.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah, absolutely. And I recognize that it's scary especially if that's not the model you've been raised with Because you don't feel like a Craftman you find that you feel like a Seeker. you're an archaeologist you're trying to unearth an artifact. You're not a Potter trying to make the thing so. When you tell somebody in that mindset that the meaning isn't waiting for you, Down Under The Rock that you're chipping like that can be I think a rough shift in worldview.
01:00:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Until you can get the point where it's empowering. We're like you can have your meaning and it can be a firm foundation that you can stand on even…
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): if you made it. Even while leaving room for it to grow.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): and change as you change sort of the idea that in being part of the natural world and having a brain that is
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Organic and changing and also has cycles and Seasons like leaving room for all of that. With the right mindset, I think can be helpful and uplifting. But if you're too tied to the idea that I just need to find the capital T truth So that I can stop the questions.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Then yeah, That's a different Kind of issue that I think plagues some folks.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah for sure.
Jeremy Schumacher: And I can bother you to read some of your poetry? I know you sent me a couple selected things specific about mental health. Would that…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: in Can I put you on the spot to indulge us a little bit?
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Sure, let me find that.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): no problem.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Do you want me to read the things I sent you?
Jeremy Schumacher: honestly, I would love if you read what you would like to read.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Let me see what I sent you.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): All right.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Okay, let me start with a poem called shelter.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Often my mental health with my creative goals often does not cooperate is an understatement. I frame this as brain Sudden snow May disrupt my garden plans, but the snow is not being malicious. It is not my enemy. It is just the weather. During my Decades of storms. I have found that I can strengthen my shelters and sharpen my forecasts, but I still don't steer the clouds. I find this Natural hardships aren't punishments nor do we own them? So we should not blame ourselves for our struggles to stay warm and dry.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): how about I read Woodland you.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): It's easy to look at the Contours of a forest and feel a bone deep love for nature. It's less easy to remember that the Contours of your own body represent the exact same nature. The pathways of your mind your dreams dark and strange as Sprouts curling beneath a Flat Rock. You're regret bitter is the Citrus rot of old cut grass. It's the same as the nature you make time to love that you practice loving. The forest the meadow the sweeping arm of a galaxy. You are as natural as any postcard landscape and deserve the Same Love.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): I think I'll read something from my new collection. So the new collection is called leafletter and it was published four days ago. so this one is hot off the presses This is the poem called Leaf litter. Today is a hard one. I'm failing to shower to eat to do anything. I feel the weight of what's beneath my bed. The untuned mandolin the knotted jump rope the worksheets from therapy. The books I almost read. I picture a dumbbell a skiff shattered Hull on a Dust Bunny seabed. All these things were once me discarded but for their hunger for my space and thoughts. What are they now? My depression says defeats.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): red ink on the permanent record or a dragon's horde of wasted hours But I see the woods beyond my window and they say something different. Leaf litter on the forest floor slowly becoming soil does not represent the failure of past summers trees. It is the process by which the past nourishes the present and future. The same is true for my old selves my bygone passions last season's interests. Maybe I can't shower today. But I can sense a choice a fork in the path. I will choose the trees. I will be thankful for the leaf litter and with an eye toward new green shoots will away to shift in the weather.
01:05:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Do you want to read sorry can make a request you want to read the wood from Field Guide to the haunted forest.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): All right. Yeah. sure. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: And maybe we can wrap on that one. It's got a great positive message.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): I'm honestly happy to read any that you'd like me to.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): I'm just scrolling through here. Let's see.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): the wood when you were born Your Enthusiasm was a red flame atop a mountain of fuel. As you age the fuel Burns low. No one warns you. Yet with intention you can learn to feed that warming fire long after the fuel you were born with is Ash on the Wind. Be kind to yourself. learn this they say cut all the wood you think you will need for the night then Cut it during the daylight when fuel seems irrelevant. dead limbs hanging low dried hungry for fire the night can be longer than we expect. The wind can be colder than we predict. The dark beneath the trees is absolute. gather the fuel double it
Jeremy Schumacher: I love that one for how often I talk about mental emotional resources. We need to be mentally well and I love that. I'm might talk to my media person about doing some artwork with it for the double it right just don't think we have a society that runs on empty all the time.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): cool.
Jeremy Schumacher: set of gathering resources and Preparation and rest and recovery. So I love that concept of like We're not.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah, that problem always has two meanings for me and one is sort of the depression side of gathering resources for the days when I have no energy together resources. And then there's the more literal side of the poem of me starting to understand that enthusiasm itself is something that needs to be kind of refilled.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): And I've sort of encountered some.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): I don't know cautionary tale kind of examples of folks who? retired Had money had health. But we're kind of at Sea because they hadn't. cultivated interests or identity beyond their working life
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): and to see somebody who has sort of freedom of time and finances but no interest in using those was kind of a reminder to me that enthusiasm itself is a skill and something to kind of look toward as almost a facet of my health.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah cautionary tale and I do couples therapy a lot that too where they launched their kids and then don't have a relationship. They don't know what their partnership is billed…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): more
Jeremy Schumacher: because it was just the kids for so long and yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): yeah. Yep.
Jeremy Schumacher: This has been awesome. I love your work. As you mentioned Leaf litter just came out by the time the episode live. It'll probably be 20 days where it's been out and available. You have love notes from the hollow tree and Field Guide to the haunted forest as other collections of works. And then the upcoming book is something in the woods loves you, which I read the first three chapters and the word. I texted my wife about it.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yep.
Jeremy Schumacher: I said it was enthralling. it just pulled me in as somebody who loves nature and cares about mental health. I'm that target audience and…
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Great.
Jeremy Schumacher: and what I read was fantastic excited for that to come out where can they find your work if they want to pick up a copy?
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Yeah, so I'm very active on Instagram under the crypto naturalist and the crypto naturalist podcast starts back up on December 15th. And so I am now working with a producer and editor and I'm no longer a team of one which is going to help me sort of have a more predictable schedule and 2024. So I'll have a podcast episodes out on the 15th and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): the 1st. Yeah. So that'll be fun…
01:10:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): if you're interested in fictional nature. And my poetry Collections and then I will definitely post when pre-orders are available for something in the woods loves you.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, very cool. Jeremy, this has been awesome. I appreciate so much you taking the time today and I appreciate you being vocal and open and genuine about your experience and mental health. I think it is super helpful to have people share their stories and their experiences and be able to connect on it.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): Awesome. Thanks Jeremy.
Jeremy Schumacher: And to all our wonderful listeners out there.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): I really appreciate the conversation.
Jeremy Schumacher: Thanks for tuning in. We'll be back next week with another new episode.
Jarod Anderson (Jarod K Anderson): theme music
Meeting ended after 01:10:44 👋