Your Therapist Needs Therapy 34 - The Importance of Secular Therapy with Dr. Darrel Ray

Jeremy is joined this week by founder of the Secular Therapy Project, Dr. Darrel Ray. Jeremy and Darrel talk about the need for secular therapy, how religious groups have changed their approach to therapy over the years, and why activism is so needed to create safe, secular spaces. Dr. Ray talks about some of his previous research on sex and secularism, and we discuss the harms of purity culture for both men and women.

You can find the secular therapist directory at Secular Therapy Project, and learn more about some of Dr. Ray’s ongoing work at the wonderful hub of resources that is Recovering from Religion. Be sure to check out Dr Ray’s books, The God Virus or Sex and God.

Jeremy has all his practice info at Wellness with Jer, and can be found on Instagram and YouTube. Like, subscribe, or leave the podcast a review! It helps other folks find it, and allows the internet to work its mysterious algorithm ways.

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Podcasts about therapy do not replace actual therapy, and listening to a podcast about therapy does not signify a therapeutic relationship. 

If you or someone you know is in crisis please call or text the nationwide crisis line at 988, or text HELLO to 741741. The Trevor Project has a crisis line for LGBTQ+ young people that can be reached by texting 678678. 

Transcript

Your Therapist Needs Therapy - Dr Darrel Ray (2023-12-06 12:57 GMT-6) - Transcript

Attendees

Darrel Ray, Jeremy Schumacher

Transcript

This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it was created.

Darrel Ray: Is the lighting okay?

Jeremy Schumacher: I'm just gonna keep the audio so You look great, though.

Darrel Ray: That's right. I forgot, Okay. I put some clothes on just for you.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, just from the waist up, Okay, so I'll introduce you and we'll hit the ground running here. Hello and welcome to another edition of your therapist needs therapy the podcast we're mental health professionals get together and talk about their mental health Journeys and how they navigate mental Wellness while working in the mental health field today. I'm joined with someone who's work is very near and dear to the work that I do as a religious Therapist, rel Ray Darrel. Thanks for joining me today.

Darrel Ray: glad to be here. I hope I get some good therapy from you today. is that what the deal is? Okay.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, that's the deal. No, you're kind of one of the movers and shakers behind the secular therapy project, which I am on as a religious trauma therapist.

Darrel Ray: I started out my own Journey was as a clinical psychologist for about 10 years. Primarily working with families in juveniles. Then I moved into organizational psychology did that for another almost around 30 years. So I saw kind of other sides of the world of psychology, but throughout that time. I saw a lot of Need for a good therapy that was sensitive to the influences of religion on our psychology and

Darrel Ray: Everything down to our brain chemistry actually, so when I published my book in 2009 the god virus, I just got overwhelmed with people who read the book and then came to me and said I need help. Yeah, I'm a psychologist.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: But I number one. I'm no longer license. I don't want to be licensed. I don't want to do therapy anymore. I want to do this and so I was constantly for free people. to therapist

Darrel Ray: And then in 2012 when I published my fourth book it's called sex and God how religion distorts sexuality. I got overwhelmed again with people saying I need a sex therapist needs.

Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm

Darrel Ray: Therapy that I could trust I couldn't find it there, but you could find jesus' statement somewhere or a Buddhist statement somewhere or even a Bible setting on a picture in there, their office. by the way, I've got about 20 Bibles right back there,…

Jeremy Schumacher: honey

Darrel Ray: but they're not for the thing that more usually is it's more for my research and my books, so I don't want to look like a hypocrite having lots of Bibles in my office.

Darrel Ray: so that led me to think how can I connect people and here's that kind of a funny twist to that Jeremy in the early 2000s. I got into online dating. I'd been married twice and decided any for me anymore. I got along dating. I became polyamorous and I still polyamorous by the way, and I just thought it is hard to find a therapist.

Darrel Ray: Dr. Marlene winnell the person who coined the term religious trauma? She came up to me we never met but for that we knew each other's works. I liked her book. And her work Journey free and her Drawing blank on her book right now. We want to be sure and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Leaving the fold.

Darrel Ray: put Okay, leaving the fault I loved her book. And so I meet her and we're having a good chat. He says I got this new idea. she says I'm calling a religious trauma. I'm gonna tell you Jeremy the minute those words came out of her mouth my whole brain just kind of flipped upside down and new wire started firing off.

Darrel Ray: And I thought to myself damn that's what I've been seeing clinically for decades. I've been seeing people who are dealing with trauma that was directly related to their religious upbringing or current relationships marriage, and all that sort of stuff. It's like once you name something.

00:05:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: Sometimes it opens a whole new world, and that's what happened to me. that's and it was happening about the same time as I started thinking. I need to help people find therapist.

Darrel Ray: A danger for revealing who they are that they're not a Christian counselor. For example. and then there's clients that need to feel safe and secure in contacting a therapist. needs the

Darrel Ray: I put those 25 24 in there and started advertising saying hey if you're interested in joining this database, please do. And for the first three years or so, I did all the vetting just personally until I got a pretty good database of I think we had about 150.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: And then I turned it over to Dr. Caleb black. Excuse me. He ran it for about five years and got it up to about 600. And then today is Dr. Travis McKee Vorst is He's been the director for about four years and we just passed We're at 800 and five therapist.

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Darrel Ray: Dr. Travis to follow up and keep things running and kind of keep work with them. So we passed 33,650 clients registered on their website of secret therapy project. All this debt is just as of this week. so it's been remarkable and the grow if I showed you the growth curve just slowly but surely turning up which you…

Jeremy Schumacher: yeah.

Darrel Ray: we're increasing speed because we're getting more people aware of what we're doing both on the client side, and we pay for

Darrel Ray: Not a lot of money, we pay a little bit of money to get advertising out on Facebook and Instagram places. So we're raising awareness. We're getting more donors. us and many of our therapist therapy project and you're getting clients from us, please donate I mean because you're supporting and so we're getting more therapist.

Jeremy Schumacher: right

Darrel Ray: Therapy your question.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: and Yeah, and I think a lot of this podcast is geared towards therapist needs.

Darrel Ray: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: Yep, absolutely. And I don't know if anybody else of any other persuasion that's doing something like this. I don't know that Who vets therapist needs?

Jeremy Schumacher: right

Darrel Ray: And so when we designed the secret therapy projects software, we designed it based upon a match.com or an eHarmony.

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Darrel Ray: Or fish, plenty of fish so could you get interact with the therapist.

00:10:00

Darrel Ray: the Rapy as well.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: What does anybody ever been out at are you afraid the clients will come in and out the therapist.

Darrel Ray: both parties and we got clients. They don't want their family knowing that they're seeing a secret therapist.

Jeremy Schumacher: right Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, exactly, and I do think. You brought it up earlier that stigma still exists. Maybe I think the word secular is a little softer, but still saying something like atheist for a lot of people that's a big turn off.

Darrel Ray: The importance of what we do isn't just for Tulsa, Oklahoma, or Birmingham, Alabama. It also is for San Francisco because you go and they may not be fundamentalists. in California, but there's woo b**** a whole lot of non-evidence-based. Therapeutic approaches that we try our best to keep that out.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: And the only problem we've ever had was we had. Special early honors back in about 2013 or 14 we had some applicants that we did not fit as well as we were still learning. I mean, it wasn't should have known but it turned out they have some real Woo new age b******* kind of stuff about three pages into their website. So we learned real quickly. You got to dig a little deeper than just the front page of their website.

Jeremy Schumacher: yeah.

Darrel Ray: And we don't take your word for it. You got to provide us some evidence. Now people could still fool us, but we have any problems with that?

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and like I said going through it the very night. I emailed back and forth with someone who was checking my profile and they had some questions I come from a strong Christian even jelica background. So it doesn't take long to find me at a Christian School where I was working or…

Darrel Ray: Yeah, yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: whatever. So they're just checking in on this and checking in on this. So that betting process is again, I think with client safety in mind is really wonderful to make sure that because there are people who will say. I'm Christian, but it doesn't affect my practice and then they're praying with clients or doing these things that are unsafe or triggering for clients.

Darrel Ray: Two but one of our vetting team members, she's not on the team anymore. She resigned a couple years ago, but she was actually from Liberty University. She had gotten a PhD and I saw that older application under big red flags here. We don't want a liberty…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: but it turned out she's an atheist now, so she had gone through that whole so in some ways she has a much better understanding, what religious drama might look like, but that was kind of funny and since then I'll bet we've had a half a dozen different therapist.

Darrel Ray: But if they could convince us, that they're no longer in that persuasion that's a big thing. I will tell you a funny story not early on but about five years ago. I had a psychologist try to ster. he a uate got his PhD at Notre Dame University of Notre Dame. So you obviously a very good school and probably very good PhD program at I said, but he was Catholic and he put it right in his application. He's Catholic. I said okay. I'm not closed mind enough to throw. Yeah, but let me ask you a question. And my only question was you got a 21 year old woman that you've been seeing for three or four weeks.

Darrel Ray: After that was set third or fourth session. She comes in says she just found out she's pregnant and she's gonna go get an abortion tomorrow and she wants some help dealing with the anxiety and stress of walking through all those Christians that are going to harass her into the clinic. How would you help her?

Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm

Darrel Ray: And I waited two weeks and then I emailed them again. what's your answer to this question? Because I'm waiting to see…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: if to prove you're not. And he finally about after three weeks. He mailed said I couldn't help her. Okay, this is a f** PhD and he can't keep his religion out of his practice that moment I said.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: Okay, we have to be even more diligent. We don't make it a requirement that you be an atheist, but you damn well better be close to it because I don't want anybody refusing service to a client because they're gay or because they're…

Jeremy Schumacher: right

Darrel Ray: because they wanted abortion. There's a whole lot of s*** that comes down when I'm somebody when the therapist session

00:15:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and we'll working with something like religious drama like that is unsafe for a client. And so we're traumatizing or we're creating new trauma for those clients who are seeking help and are vulnerable and then someone's gonna start a session off with a prayer or something like that.

Darrel Ray: Okay, I can deal with that when it comes to clients. I can't deal with it when it comes to a therapist.

Darrel Ray: The bottom line for a therapy project you have to prove to us. You do not hold Supernatural beliefs. It's that simple and being New Age being spiritual but not religious means you still think there's s* going on that you can't see here or feel or validate that's Supernatural. It's outside of the realm of human senses that It shouldn't be appropriate in any therapy session. and my pet peeve is that there's a lot of people in the therapy field who really buy into this spiritual s**. How do you And that week that is a traumatizing thing or it's taken people down in other Primrose path to trauma. and it doesn't help people deal with reality, if

Darrel Ray: If you're saying you need to let the spirit of God lead you or you need this Spirit of Zeus lead you I don't care. it's still Gobbledy cook and it's not going to help somebody deal with their depression. Or their anxiety about losing their whole family if they leave the church that sort of stuff anyway.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and you brought up the new age stuff. I mean whether it's Wellness or crystals or here's the supplement that you need to take again for people who are missing that meeting making that religion provided for them. It's easy to get sucked in or pulled into some other Cults adjacent Behavior.

Darrel Ray: Yeah, and the worst thing is when the therapist.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: There's a lot of overlap. I think between some of that magical thinking in, religion or even gelicalism which is what I was raised in and some of the wellness industry and the self-help industry.

Darrel Ray: Yep, my mentor just to throw another detail by Mentor in graduate school and later was I off and on studied under him for quite a while was Albert Ellis. I don't know…

Jeremy Schumacher: Mm- Yeah,…

Darrel Ray: if you're familiar with Albert Ellis.

Jeremy Schumacher: rational motive behavior therapy.

Darrel Ray: Yeah, the Godfather of what we now knows cognitive behavioral therapy. So I learned rather early on from him. how to be pretty tough in the way you analyze behavior and analyze your thought processes and when I see people being squishy and loosey-goosey about their terminology and their language I see someone who's going to confuse a client. if the client wants to be Lucy goosey and Squishy and all that that's the client's issue but the therapist better language skills and better and rational skills to understand what they're seeing hearing and feeling and not let their own Supernatural b*** get into it. I know I come off as a hard-ass probably harder than I really am but I just don't want people to be hurt.

Darrel Ray: And if you're a therapist needs therapy thinks they're hurting anybody. I'm every therapist. The evidence just is not there though I don't know…

Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, and…

Darrel Ray: what to go with that.

Jeremy Schumacher: I think

Darrel Ray: But that's where I win.

Jeremy Schumacher: No, I think that sideways into talking about how some of these things are spiritual bypassing. it's avoiding doing the work and…

Darrel Ray: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: they're soothing I'll put that in quotation marks. there's some version of soothing that happens, but it's not doing the work that needs to happen. So it's sidestepping some of the discomfort whether it's Say 10 Hail Marys or it's squeeze your favorite Crystal it's not addressing what the root cause of that symptom is.

00:20:00

Darrel Ray: right, right and a skilled therapist needs that a good therapist.

Darrel Ray: therapy project I know but That's secret therapy project just to make sure we've covered all the bases is a sub program of recovery from religion. And we have dozens of programs sex therapist.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, they recovering from religion is my favorite resources tab for people who are deconstructing because it has so much information. it's the best place to start in my opinion for if you're questioning or how to deal with this topic. The resources page is fantastic, but then right podcasts and videos and talks and all those things. So just a ton of great free accessible resources for people.

Darrel Ray: Right, right, and we don't charge a thing for any of our services everything we do is for our donor Supply the money for…

Jeremy Schumacher: right

Darrel Ray: what we're doing.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, let's talk about you being a hard ass. I think some of it being familiar with some of Albert Ellis's work. I like to use kind of his he wouldn't have turned it sarcastic but almost catastrophizing for a client taking their concerns to a ridiculous point…

Darrel Ray: Yep.

Jeremy Schumacher: where they realize…

Darrel Ray: Yep.

Jeremy Schumacher: how silly it is. I use that a lot in my work but the Trope of kind of the angry atheist. you talk about not wanting people to be hurt and I think religion especially in America has such a privileged status that people assume. this person is a man of God. So how could he be a bad person? Even though we know there's all this data that says the most likely perpetrators of sexual abuse are pastors or priests so I don't think is at least professionally speaking. It's being an angry atheist. I think it's speaking out where there's Injustice where there's still a system of Oppression that's allowed to exist and almost hold a privileged status.

Darrel Ray: Exactly, and that's what I don't want to see among therapist therapist.

Darrel Ray: But I'm also don't know to let people get away with s*** so they continue self. sabotage themselves or undermine their…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: though If you play along and don't challenge them, you're part of the problem. And you're taking people's money and hurting them potentially. So yeah. I'm all about Do no harm. And they're just I'll tell you this. One of the things I'm seeing a lot of right now and part of the reason secretary project. So important is there so many religious schools in the last 30 years have opened up their own marriage and family programs or counseling programs or Psychology programs.

Darrel Ray: For example at the Regents University where Pat Robertson's University. It requires a PhD level candidate to take one year of Pat Robertson, Theology that says God sends hurricanes to Orlando because of the gays now if you have to take a year of that kind of theology to get your PhD, you're still licensable and probably all 50 states. What are you going to do with that? That is really really bad training.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: It's poor training. And there's hundreds of colleges universities that now have religiously based marriage and Counseling and it's clinical psychology and counseling psychology programs and they're trading people. How do you weave Jesus into your therapy? and don't call yourself a Christian counselor, but you can still be a counselor that follows Christ. I mean I've heard

Jeremy Schumacher: yeah.

Darrel Ray: That because they're getting wise to this Christian Counseling notion that and there's a lot of clients to say, I need a counselor. That's Christian. I don't want to secular counselor. But that means you're not getting a well-trained counselor and…

Jeremy Schumacher: And the Speaker of the House his wife was.

Darrel Ray: you end up getting traumatized.

00:25:00

Darrel Ray: …

Jeremy Schumacher: a pastoral counselor so Not licensed not anything.

Darrel Ray: I know.

Jeremy Schumacher: I mean her style therapy was Batshit crazy I wrote my longest blog post I've ever written was just a point by Point taked out of why this is terrible. But you…

Darrel Ray: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: it's almost as the people leave church the rise of the nuns as people like to call it the non-religious but the extremists that evangelicals who are still in it are Getting more and more extreme speaker of the house being in a covenant marriage like that's so wild.

Darrel Ray: Yeah, Yep, and he never looks at p*** and if he does his son knows about it…

Jeremy Schumacher: He sends it to his kid.

Darrel Ray: because they're both using coming eyes.

Jeremy Schumacher: And I think it's one of those things too with journalism and counteracting the angry atheist Trope. I think as an activist is trying to take care of people and protect people from being harmed. We have to speak out about the stuff like a lot of people don't know how Covenant eyes Works. I've worked with people…

Darrel Ray: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: who are in accountability groups back when I was a Christian and…

Darrel Ray: Mm-hmm

Jeremy Schumacher: was Progressive and liberal but still identified as a Christian and these accountability groups all fail together one person looks at p*** they all get notified and…

Darrel Ray: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: then they all do because it's like somebody slipped up. So here's our free pass clockwork. That's how it works. And so I think the media grab something coming to eyes this is weird. That's right about it, but doesn't know enough about how actually works to be like, hey, this is problematic. That's like sending your 17 year old what p*** you're watching that's weird. Why are you in government?

Darrel Ray: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Believe shouldn't be.

Darrel Ray: There's other iterations of that kind of thing like sex addiction groups. I've had had many people a gay pray the gay way groups. Conversion camps or…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah conversion camps.

Darrel Ray: just conversion groups that meet regularly what I've had way too many people tell me that's where I got my dates.

Jeremy Schumacher: right Yeah.

Darrel Ray: A place where people are trying to recover and then offer more of what their quote quote on Dick addicted. hell, yeah, you go to alcoholics anonymous group and pass the beer around. Yeah. Yeah,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah be hosting AA at a bar instead of a church.

Darrel Ray: it's crazy. But there's a lot and I think you're right and the anger atheist piece gets mislabeled. I actually think there is such a things angry at this. I think there are people that have not dealt with their own ger. Around being deceived and lied to by the whatever religion they came out of whether it be Islam or Christianity or Buddhism. I don't care they all are lying to you at some level and significantly lying to you. So to feel that anger sense of betrayal is perfectly understandable. I just want to help but on the other side of that coin.

Darrel Ray: You need to get over that anger sooner or later because you're wasting a lot of your valuable life and energy on something that's not going to go anywhere and you're not going to convert or deconvert anybody. With that kind of anger and behavior. In fact, it actually usually drives people back into religion. I don't want to be around Darrel because he's an angry atheist. So I'm not as an angry atheist. I'm here as a person who's angry about what religion does to people and how therapist.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, Darrel far be it for me to call someone old but you have been in the field longer than I have, Marlene woodnell's leaving the fold came out in 1994. That's almost 30 years ago. What are some of the changes that you've seen in the field?

Darrel Ray: but

Jeremy Schumacher: Even the concept of religious trauma being introduced but the rise of sex education and online, some of these things are more accessible to people how have you kind of seen that shift within the field of people working with religious trauma?

Darrel Ray: I have and you can call me old I'm 39 and holding. that's…

Jeremy Schumacher: Hey, you're four years older than me.

Darrel Ray: where I come.

Darrel Ray: I'm privileged in the sense. I've seen the development of therapy and psychology. and the clinical work over, My first exposure was after I left. Seminary I got a job as a counselor in a juvenile facility. And as a result of being in that facility for a few months, I realized I kind of like this counseling stuff. So that's when I went back to Peabody Vanderbilt and started working on my doctorate in counseling Psych. but

Darrel Ray: so that was real early. I was 1974 that I started there. So I've seen everything up until today and what I can say is in the 1970s and through the 80s. This religious b***** was not in the clinical setting. heard the term Christian counselor. I never heard that term. I never knew a therapist.

00:30:00

Darrel Ray: it just was mind-boggling now to see this happening. So yes, there's been a huge shift. But it's away from Clinical practices or at least reviewed potentially scientifically validated. I'm not seeing every theory that comes out of current psychology is Goblin good because at one point in time cognitive therapy was gobbly good too. And it just takes time for new theories to be proven but it's way science works. So the folks that I'm seeing come out are now being educated in schools that didn't exist when I was around.

Jeremy Schumacher: right

Darrel Ray: I was going to doctor it from one of the best schools period I mean, I really valued what I got there but not across a couple miles away as Belmont College, which is a conservative Baptist University and they've now got a PhD that did not exist when I was around. And they're all sorts of Christian b*******.

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Darrel Ray: You cannot be a gay professor at Belmont. I will just say there are gay professors there. They just keep quiet.

Jeremy Schumacher: right Yeah.

Darrel Ray: There was a gay coach lesbian coach of a national champion team. They fired her because she came out as lesbian. So what kind of training are you giving people and what kind of now and you're getting that from those kind of universities? And that didn't exist when I was around now.

Darrel Ray: Places like Regents University is a fairly new University too. They didn't have a PhD program, but they do now and woman on a local radio show here. That PhD from Pat Robertson University and she was on the show in Kansas City. Touting her new book on the horrors of sex addiction and how you keep your children out of internet p*** and all this sort of b*******. And they were treating her she had some amazing valid scientific research behind it. And there is zilch and zero. I called into the show.

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Darrel Ray: I saw it. I called into the show. I was listening as I was driving around and I called in I told him what I wanted to talk about.

Darrel Ray: I stayed on that show for that was show last in an hour. I was on that show for 45 minutes and They never let me ask my question. In the meantime.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: There was a dozen other people that got their questions in there, but I never got mine in so I wrote a really nice long letter to the general manager of the radio program saying why are you telling this pseudoscience b******* and all that? I would like to be on there to refute what she said. They never responded to my letter but pisses…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. that's

Darrel Ray: if that's an angry atheist that I'm an angry.

Jeremy Schumacher: And also interesting, that's why I brought up the historicals per perspective because thinking pretty Reagan how things may be looked whereas I grew up in the 90s. And so I've seen a negative response to some of the religion most people who are in my age range are we know people who are deconstructing or have already deconstructed like the Elder Millennials have left church and drove. So it's fascinating kind of look at that.

Darrel Ray: Okay.

Jeremy Schumacher: Right if you think 60s and 70s, it was science and then the religious right started kind of implementing this long-term plan to shift some of these things and normalize religion.

Darrel Ray: Yep.

Jeremy Schumacher: Homeschools and some of these things as being with no supervisions the word I want to use but with no accountability built into it.

Darrel Ray: Yeah, right, right. So I'm sure some of your viewers are from one or more of those schools and just because you're from one of those schools doesn't mean you're a bad therapist. Needs therapy or…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: Oral Roberts Church box or here's One of the worst in the nation is Bringing Young University makes people at any level any student before you go into Brigham you have to sign a waiver that says I will not look at p***. I will not have sex outside America,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

00:35:00

Darrel Ray: all the things that I had done by the time I was 18.

Jeremy Schumacher: right

Darrel Ray: and more and these people are going in there with that kind of an attitude and education and then they're leaving to go out and do things. For example, there's these gay conversion ranches out in Utah that are being run by Masters level graduates of bringing Young University and they're charging. insurance companies for children that are being sent from Massachusetts from Alabama to these camps. And they're claiming that the children are. being treated for depression. Through the insurance company, but then they're telling the parent but we will treat their sex addiction. He got a 12 13 year old kid is mom caught a masturbating or caught him with a Playboy magazine and now they're sending him off to get sex addiction trip. how would you

Darrel Ray: That's just mind boggling a 13 year old cannot be a sex addict. And nobody is by the…

Jeremy Schumacher: right

Darrel Ray: but certainly not a 13 year old and so we've got insurance companies that were buying into that now on the last few years, they've gotten wise to this and they're starting to ask more questions. So the insurance aren't paying for this. Called depression that's really diagnosed as sex addiction and there's no such diagnosis. Of course. But it's still there and those camps haven't gone bankrupt. The parents are just having to pay more out of their own pocket. Still wrong and…

Jeremy Schumacher: right

Darrel Ray: it's How does it damage these boys and it's largely There are girls that go there but it's almost all boys. And they're being supervised by men. Who think you can't masterbate? Of course, they did not masturbate them sore them cells that morning before they went to tell the boys. They can't masturbate. it's just horrible now. where so that's

Darrel Ray: peeve number two here And that is the American Psychological Association, but especially American Counseling Association. Is overlooking these egregious? things that are going on these people Are bringing Young University at least last I checked Their programs were still accredited by the American Counseling Association. Nobody is saying look you where's the American Counseling Association when?

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: when a therapist

Darrel Ray: When those kids are being virtually tortured at a camp by accredited counselors from Brigham Young University that is pissing me off more than almost anything else because those kids are huge victims of a system that's religiously motivated. Ask me.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and then honest the onus is on those kids or clients who have a therapist needs therapy lose their license, they get put on probation, but there aren't enough therapist. So the abuse happens and they either lose their accreditation and stay open and write charge out-of-pocket or the abuse keeps going on and we get news stories of horrific abuse that Christian Day program training how many of those needs to happen before? You…

Darrel Ray: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: we as a society say right this is harming people.

Darrel Ray: The boards themselves and of course every state has its own. Board of some kind whether it's the licensing board or with health board or whatever. But far too many of those people are deeply religious themselves. And they're very hesitant to clamp down abuse of religious privilege within some clinical setting.

Jeremy Schumacher: right

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: So they're just no checks and balances here to stop Christianity and it just gotten worse. I know you didn't see the 60s and 70s I did but through the 90s and two early 2000s. I saw this incredible growth of Purity culture, of course, which feeds right into it because how many counselors believe that some forms of Sexual expression are and ungodly and…

Jeremy Schumacher: right

Darrel Ray: and they're there to help discourage kids who think they're gay or might be trans or something like that.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. and…

Darrel Ray: Damn, we've gone down a hell of a rabbit hole here.

Jeremy Schumacher: I think even with periodiculture, I want to pick your brain a little bit on I think. A lot of people are aware how Purity culture hold harms women because it's so Steep and patriarchy but as a male therapist.

00:40:00

Darrel Ray: Yes, Yeah, that reminds me. I wrote an article about five or six years ago called male shame. And the other side of the coin to female shame. And I explore that very thing that Purity culture hurt women a lot. But let's look at how it's perpetuated and how men were hurt by it as well it's

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Darrel Ray: that where I'd lost my train of thought my phone went off and I thought I turned it off. What was I saying there Jeremy?

Jeremy Schumacher: Okay that I don't know you cut out so it probably was. something happened.

Darrel Ray: I cut out. Okay.

Jeremy Schumacher: I was just checking my internet because I was like,…

Darrel Ray: No,…

Jeremy Schumacher: I lost him you're back.

Darrel Ray: I'm sorry about that. What was I saying?

Jeremy Schumacher: So where it cut out was the opposite side of the coin was…

Darrel Ray: I was going somewhere with it.

Darrel Ray: Yeah, right male male shame go your viewers. You might be interested in that article. if you Google Mail shame and Darrel Ray. It'll probably come up. It's in our resources too. If you do mail shame within our resources,…

Jeremy Schumacher: how Purity culture is harmed?

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: but the thesis is men were hurt by Purity culture in ways that aren't as obvious. I mean with Purity culture and the 90s you could see girls being forced to go to a ball with their father and we're a purity rayon dance with their father in a wet. What appear to be wedding dress. and signed pledges and all that b***. but boys were being taught some crazy stuff too, about what's the role of

Darrel Ray: Of the women are supposed to be up ultimately subservient to men and looking at p*** will ruin your marriage. I mean, there's a whole set of beliefs and ideas that boys were getting the girls didn't get as much or as a whole different set of guidelines and ideas and both sides are just useless. But they're harmful.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: They're more than worse they're harmful. and I think that article I think there's a lot to be said Jeremy for the male side of all this because I don't think that's been paid attention to Because it's so obvious how bad the problems are on the women's side. But's just as it's invisible. I guess you could say and so the reason I think this is important is I see so many men coming to us at recover from religion.

Darrel Ray: let me give you an example. about a year and a half ago. We started a women only group and it's a virtual group and within weeks after starting this group is online group facilitated by one of our trained volunteers, not that When we're joining us from three or four countries from Japan from Australia from California on the same meeting and we could see a real need for women to talk about this stuff away from the ears of men. Which I fully understand a fully support. I mean so we've had this meeting going for year year and a half. About three months ago. One of our volunteers said why don't we have a men's meeting? what's going on here? why don't we have a meds and I

Darrel Ray: We do debated and discussed it for a while. So let's give it a try see if there's any Market. I guess you could say out there for it. And we announced got I think there were three or four guys showed up the Second meeting we had 17 guys show up. Now our next meeting was two days ago.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: I haven't heard how many showed up but boy there is a market there. And I'm not talking to capitalistic terms. there's a need there. It's more private better return for it.

Jeremy Schumacher: right

Darrel Ray: And what these guys are talking about? This Purity stuff really really affected their ability to communicate with women. To understand what the dating world is to accept rejection. or how to approach a woman without seeming like a creepy Predator, there's And women were taught.

Darrel Ray: What men that men are fundamentally Predators so women are coming at men from an angle that is puzzling to the man. I haven't even kissed a woman yet. How can I be a predator, and this you…

Jeremy Schumacher: right

Darrel Ray: I think there's a whole area to be explored now on the male side. I think we've opened up a can of worms on the female side and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: that can of worms we're starting to understand it better. But I think there's a lot more and that's why I wrote that article on male shame because men have a lot of Shame. And the religion itself teaches this the most obvious example is In whether Pakistan or there's an honor killing in Toronto, or Saudi Arabia. it honor killing is just an expression of male shame.

00:45:00

Darrel Ray: if you're female you are supposed to control your females, whether that's your daughter. You're supposed to control them. If you're a man if they don't abide by your patriarchal rules. Then that gives you the right that then you have to do something about it. And if it reflects and it reflects directly on you as a man as a male. So now my daughter has shamed Me by kissing a boy without being married to him. So now I have to go kill her because the actual active murder is a direct result of my Shame about not being able to control my women. that sounds we've all could agree. That's penis. And Incredibly uncivilized and psychologically obviously damaging to everybody but where the guy learn the shame you learned it from Islam.

Darrel Ray: Purity culture does the same thing? We just don't go so far with it. How many families have kicked their own child out of the house because their daughter was outside of marriage or that they have a gay child. And they disowned their own children because of male You have brought shame upon our family as a Mormon in Utah. The girl goes out has sex after the prom dad finds out. You've brought shame upon our family. And so there's male shame is now going to be expressed in the form of some kind of punishment for the females. that's how males shame works and there's a lot more to it, of course, but If I have you, I've never heard anybody talking about it from this angle Maybe I'm Wrong. Have you heard anybody talking about it?

Jeremy Schumacher: I tried to run a group better on a purity culture group for men with a Needs therapyal problems or…

Darrel Ray: Mm-hmm

Darrel Ray: Yep.

Jeremy Schumacher: that they were harmed by Purity culture. I think because there's this guilt around but I'm privileged as a male there's that awareness of your privilege,…

Darrel Ray: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: but also how can it be true that there's privilege there and it's still harming you

Darrel Ray: yeah, I think this notion privilege needs to it's too much like a sledgehammer. It's just not enough Nuance there.

Jeremy Schumacher: Nuance yeah

Darrel Ray: If you're the top one percent. Yeah, you're clearly privileged. I mean the richest person in a group or the best looking person in a group. privilege, but the rest of the population Falls below that And they can be as much victims of this system as anybody else. I mean men are victimized by Purity culture.

Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm

Darrel Ray: As much as women are victimized by security culture. they're part of a system. You can't separate them.

Jeremy Schumacher: right

Darrel Ray: And when you try to separate and you do Injustice to both sides, I think.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: I think and the fact that for example when I was going to school up and up through the 80s and then that changed sex education It was always terrible, but at least it was better than what it is now, and we actually had sex education and they actually told us about condoms in the school. I went to And 10 years later that would have gotten a teacher or whoever's teaching it fired for telling a kid about condom. And it was in 1995 that Dr. Jocelyn Elders got fired as a Surgeon General because she talked about masturbation as a normal thing. are you old enough to remember that under the Clinton administration?

Jeremy Schumacher: I would have been seven.

Jeremy Schumacher: So probably not…

Darrel Ray: Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: what growing up hearing about all the innuendos around getting a b** in the white house I grew up in Purity culture. So even my parents would turn the news off like that was so taboo to even know those things existed. And again,…

Darrel Ray: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: I as a therapist needs

Darrel Ray: Yep.

00:50:00

Darrel Ray: exactly and then there's the whole issue whether you're religious or not. Whether you're race religious or not. You still live in a religious culture that is crazy religious ideas. I call Oprah. Winfrey gets on her show and starts talking about sex addiction or start talking about p*** addiction and suddenly it's a thing. In 1983 Dr. Patrick Carnage wrote the first book on sex addiction and he's made a cottage industry all that ever since I think he's published five books on sex addiction. How can you publish five books on something that you can't even agree has got a diagnostic criteria, but he's done it and he's a darling of the religious, right? They Dr. James Dobson all those people love cars even though he says,

Darrel Ray: What he says is not quote religiously Banks. He will say that I've seen him say it. But if you look at the damn test, he gives people to identify if you're a sex addict. I do a talk on the myth of sex addiction and…

Jeremy Schumacher: right

Darrel Ray: I did there are 500 people in the free thought conference in Tulsa Oklahoma about five years ago. I handed a copy of his test out everybody I said, please take this test and at everybody did it and then as I guess started on my talk I said stand up. If you are a sex addict according to this test and about 80% of the people stood up. It's crazy.

Jeremy Schumacher: right

Darrel Ray: so if a test can't discriminate between People have real problems that people have fantasy problems.

Darrel Ray: Horns is just a fantasist. He's created a whole cottage industry and whether he was a religious or not religion has jumped on to that and Oprah Winfrey has jumped onto that churches love it because now they have an AA meeting every week in the basement or their Church. They can have a sex addiction Anonymous meeting in their church too run by probably a well-trained sexual predator.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: Who knows It's yeah, yeah. we

Darrel Ray: yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: I don't like these books these programs these things that are capitalistic in nature are making money off of these religious groups and Based on no science Evangelical…

Darrel Ray: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: which what I was raised in so I can criticize it freely the belief is in your heart and so there is no need for science or logic which is how they've been kind of co-opted by trumpism and all of that stuff where there is no critical thinking because critical thinking is anathema to believe it in your heart.

Darrel Ray: Yep, absolutely. so Yeah,…

Jeremy Schumacher: so Go ahead…

Darrel Ray: I'm sorry.

Jeremy Schumacher: if you had a segue.

Darrel Ray: I didn't plan on talking about this today, but I'm glad we did because I think it's important for Needs therapy. the

Darrel Ray: rapy therapists have to continually work on how they're being influenced by the culture around them. And be aware that the media influences therapist.

Darrel Ray: n

Darrel Ray: eed

Darrel Ray: Who is simply using sex or p*** to deal with other lower lying issues, whether there's any number of things they could be dealing with at least of which the least which is probably depression but a therapist. To accept some of the stuff that's coming into us from the culture and our clients are bringing it into the client will come in and says, I think I'm a sex addict. you need to help the plan understand.

Jeremy Schumacher: You right.

Darrel Ray: That the research shows. The most highest likely of you being a sex addict is if you're from a religion that says you're a hectic.

Jeremy Schumacher: right

Darrel Ray: It's not the science that's doing that for you.

Darrel Ray: So, I don't know I got my high horse.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: I'm not setting in the office listening to the psychiatrists or psychologists or whoever. I'm just seeing the results. I'm having people come to us. And saying my last two therapist.

00:55:00

Jeremy Schumacher: right Yeah.

Darrel Ray: Therapy project and I said look anybody that takes a therapy project. I won't guarantee it but I'll put a 99% down that they will not agree that you're a sex addict and they won't treat you as a sex headache. And if I find out they did we're going to get rid of them real quick.

Jeremy Schumacher: right and the research, I mean this was a recent study that just reaffirmed that pornography usage only causes problem for people who are from a religious background who think that it causes problems. it has nothing to do with the usage itself.

Darrel Ray: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: It has to do with your belief system attached to it. And I know studying p* in Academia is difficult to get good scientific research…

Darrel Ray: Exactly. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: because there's no control group because more than 95% of people watch p***. So it's so difficult. So you have this vacuum that these Christian publishing houses come in with their pseudoscience and publish stories. and I don't want to say there's no counterbalance. But I know it's difficult to study because you don't have a control group because of how ubiquitous p*** uses.

Darrel Ray: And then the fact that p*** uses highest among the most religious ZIP codes in the United States that's another issue. That's kind of funny and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: you taught Mississippi or number one and number two important youth it's

Jeremy Schumacher: Right and you see occasionally those Maps? I don't know how scientifically validated they are. But the most searched terms on p** for each state and those types of things.

Darrel Ray: They are valid and there was a book published about 10 years ago, maybe even more called a billion Wicked thoughts and I think it was two social psychologists out of Stanford. I think there were just looking at IP addresses and where the p*** searches were coming from and they validated and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: then p Started doing that later p******, simply validating what these academicians already found?

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: It is funny. By the way, it's old but not dated. I'll just say this. I did some research. about ten years ago called sex and secularism and it's available free it's a PDF. You can get it online. I can even send it to you if you want, but we looked at 14,000 590. respondents that we found on the internet. We just put the survey up and ask people to take the survey and only people we were interested in were people who are not religious. We only want a non-religious people. So we excluded anybody who currently identifies themselves religion.

Darrel Ray: And some identified as agnostics some of us, spiritual but now religious I don't know if they were religious they were eliminated and out of that. We found some fascinating results from this And one of the things we found was men and women watched just about the same amount of p***. and men and women start sex within three to six months of 17 years of age. Regardless of whether they were in Purity culture training or not. that…

Jeremy Schumacher: yeah.

Darrel Ray: what we found was the same thing US Government found in it's research that You can take a Epson only or Purity culture. course And it will delay the onset of intercourse by about three to six months, but You start having sex.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: And that looking at p*** same thing Purity culture kids start looking in a p*** about three months later than on pretty culture. It doesn't stop them. It just slows them down a little bit.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, that makes it less safe. We know unplanned pregnancies and those things

Darrel Ray: Yeah, the unplanned pregnancy. Not teaching about birth control saying abortion is bad and all that sort of stuff. So yeah,…

Jeremy Schumacher: yeah.

Darrel Ray: go look that up or let me send you a link to it because the research. Like I said, it's all but it's not dated there that everything we found we did a follow-up survey about five years later and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: our results were almost identical. It was a totally different set of people. So we know that what we found was solid and the reason I'm recommending it because it's secular focus and your clients your therapist.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: Raised religious you were but are now secular and…

01:00:00

Jeremy Schumacher: right

Darrel Ray: the other 30 40 percent were raised secular. So what we did was we took those two groups and we compared them. and that's really interesting comparison group because The religious group were still religious at 15 years of age. The secular group were secular 13 14 15. So we simply asked what did you start looking at p*** for both groups? When did you start having sex with When did you masturbate for the first time and we could see that there was almost no difference between these two groups. It was a great way to compare them.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Almost as if it's a natural process and has nothing to do with.

Darrel Ray: Almost as…

Darrel Ray: if they're hormones flowing or something.

Jeremy Schumacher: Hey, how are we doing for time Darrel?

Jeremy Schumacher: Do you have a couple more minutes?

Darrel Ray: Yeah, a couple more minutes that I probably going. I'm not a huge hurry.

Jeremy Schumacher: Okay. Yeah,…

Darrel Ray: But yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: one of the other things I just wanted to touch base on because you're openly polyamorous and it's one of those things that I see a lot in the deconstruction community. I think it's joked about but there's some reality too people who kind of deconstruct their religion often will then deconstruct the concept of monogamy and I'm just curious if again, it's one of those things you've kind of seen culturally shift if there have been Ebbs and flows for the stigma attached to that and kind of where you feel like the fields at right now.

Darrel Ray: gosh, we could do a whole program on that.

Jeremy Schumacher: I know sorry I saved it for the end.

Darrel Ray: I got divorced in 1980 early 88 we separated 87. I've been married for 17 years. And within a few months, I had a very close friend. We're still really close friends Dr. Dan Dana moved in with me because he had just gone through a divorce, too. And Dan is a Avid Reader as am I and he said hey, you might want to look at this book called loving more by Dr. Deborah annapol. I read it and it was the first book ever published. I believe is the first book ever published on polyamory. I thought this is interesting and so I was exposed to the notion of polyamory. In the late 80s and through the 90s I didn't.

Darrel Ray: I realized I probably should be poly but the culture wasn't there yet. And neither were the dating sites. You couldn't put polyamorous on Plenty of Fish dating site. it didn't exist actually.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: So I went ahead and went through the monogamy phase again with a second wife, which is a stupid mistake and then by 2001 that marriage ended. I was only married three years. And that marriage India I realized This is dumb. Why am I staying monogamous? It's not me. And so I openly started practicing polyamory and by that time some of the websites were more friendly to it and some articles were coming out. Of course, the ethical s*** it was written about 1980 1996 or seven I think and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: of course I read that

Darrel Ray: And I just think this is really an important concept because here's the deal people in polyamorous since Adam and Eve. because I think Steve may have been in there too or…

Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, right. Yeah.

Darrel Ray: Lilith was in there too. Yeah, why are we being dishonest and what is monogamy anyway, but a religious concept So I started deconstructing my own monogamy.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: And why did my partners for example feel compelled and how do we work through this and often times worked through it together? And so I started just advertising. Hey, I'm out in the dating world. I'm happy to get a partner or two, but I'm not going to be monogamous if that's not good enough for you then. Let's keep walking going.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: And I was surprised that the number of women that genuinely open to that now at that point time, I was 51 years old, And in a meeting women that are of the same age range, within 10 years of that I dated both women.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: There were five six seven years older than me and I did one was 14 years old and he had another woman that was 10 years old and 10 years younger than me. So the whole spread it wasn't an age thing. I mean I know this. Fantasy some men have mirroring the 25 year old that was never one of my fantasies. I don't want anything to do with that age that when I was 25. I didn't know what the f*** I was doing and I still

Darrel Ray: So I've seen Polly really open up a lot used. I mean when you have post putting regular articles up on polyamory…

01:05:00

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Darrel Ray: where you see a Wall Street Journal and a Washington Post article on polyamory. And you see regular colonists now talking about polyamory. And you see women talking about deconstructing their own monogamy. I want to turn you on a good friend of mine Gail Glenda Jordan just did a talk two weeks ago and She did it on rfrx two weeks ago and it was her. story and philosophy deconstructing Her monogamy and she's been polyamorous for about 10 years now with her nesting partner, but she's got two other partners. anyway, she

Darrel Ray: I'll just tell you Jeremy she gave the most amazing talk. I have never seen a better talk on polyamory in my life. I don't think I could have given a talk near as good as she did. But here's the interesting thing about the polyamory world.

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Darrel Ray: It's led by women. It is not a male fantasy. It is a women's movement. And if you look at them all the main books written about polyamory written by women. starting with Deborah annapol and with the ethical s*** by y Janet Hardy and Dolce Easton almost all the books are by women. That alone says something about where the culture is going. And who's leading this?

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I think Jessica Farin wrote policycure, which is a little bit more current than ethical s*** but in that same kind of line of people

Darrel Ray: Yeah. yeah. No, I'm not ethical. Let's not up to date. I know they do have an up-to-date revised version I guess…

Jeremy Schumacher: right Yes,…

Darrel Ray: but I will tell you.

Jeremy Schumacher: But yeah, no that'd be great to link to that talk when it gets posted. We'll definitely have that in the show notes.

Darrel Ray: yeah, I owe this been years ago. I started seeing this one woman or we communicated I think through Plenty of Fish or something like that and we met for coffee one day and as we're meeting for coffee, I'm telling you I'm polyamorous, here's what that means. She never even heard of the term. And she was a very thoughtful person. She listened carefully and had some good questions and then at the inches, I don't think I'd do that. And her words were I don't share. So, okay, that's fine. So we went our separate ways. About a week later. I get a call from her and she wants to see me again. the story.

Darrel Ray: We dated for a seven or eight years after that. and the second time we met it was really kind of funny the second time we met. She said I have a confession to make I do have a boyfriend on the side.

Darrel Ray: And she had had a boyfriend on the side for her whole adult life practically, even when she was married. She just had never owned up to it.

Jeremy Schumacher: yeah.

Darrel Ray: So she was Polly but unethically non-monogamous…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: if you will and it was funny we still were still good friends today? Although we're not involved anymore, but it was funny and we had a great laugh about it, but I think there's a lot of people out there like that. and the fact that women are leading. This tells me that. Women of course, we have a lot of evidence that women. have not been honest about their sexual past and for good reason because our culture shames women for being s****, and promiscuous and all that even though men are

Darrel Ray: Equally, but I think once a women owns her sexuality,…

Jeremy Schumacher: right

Darrel Ray: it says is my sexuality and I'll give a f*** what you think and if you can't deal with it, that's your problem. Not mine. Then they're free to be monogamous or polyamorous if they want to be. I don't even like the word monogamous by the way. I try to get rid of that word. I think exclusive is a better term because Monogamy is one sex partner for life.

Jeremy Schumacher: Sorry.

Jeremy Schumacher: For Life. Yeah, right.

Darrel Ray: That's what Jesus defined as to be and I'll quote Jesus very often. so if you've had more than one sex partner, then you are not monogamous by definition. So I prefer exclusive so…

Jeremy Schumacher: right

Darrel Ray: if you will be exclusive for 50 years go for it. But you're not monogamous because you had a boyfriend before you.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Darrel Ray: Dated your husband or whatever her girlfriend. Yeah, anyway, so we went down that rabbit hole. I could go way down that rabbit hole, but

Jeremy Schumacher: That was great. and I knew that talk had been scheduled that wasn't able to attend so it'll be awesome when it gets posted and like I said, we'll link to the show notes tons of great resources Darrel. I'll link to your book and…

01:10:00

Darrel Ray: 

Jeremy Schumacher: recovering from religion. Like I said is something I share with clients constantly. it's on my tabs because of how often I copy and paste it send it to people so lots of links in the show not So thanks so much for taking the time and…

Darrel Ray: Yep. Sure.

Jeremy Schumacher: taking the time to talk today.

Darrel Ray: I hope your folks will go look at my books. God virus and sex and God. I think they'll have a lot to say about…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, what? Yeah, for sure,…

Darrel Ray: what you do in the Clinton and the clinical office.

Jeremy Schumacher: and we'll link to all that stuff. So thanks.

Darrel Ray: Okay.

Jeremy Schumacher: Thanks for taking the time today and to all our lovely listeners out there. Thanks for tuning in. We'll be back next week with another new episode.

Darrel Ray: Okay.

Meeting ended after 01:10:39 👋