Your Therapist Needs Therapy 17 - Mindful Movement after Religious Trauma with Kari Fillian

This week Jeremy gets the chance to chat with Kari Fillian. Jeremy and Kari talk about how trauma lingers in the body, how mindful movement like yoga can help, and how setting intentions in structuring our work helps therapists stay healthy. 

You can find more about Kari and her work here, and find her on Instagram here. Kari is also kicking off a podcast soon, so you can follow that here!

You can learn more about trauma informed yoga here!

And, as always, Jeremy and his many ventures can be found at Wellness with Jer.

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Podcasts about therapy do not replace actual therapy, and listening to a podcast about therapy does not signify a therapeutic relationship. 

If you or someone you know is in crisis please call or text the nationwide crisis line at 988, or text HELLO to 741741. The Trevor Project has a crisis line for LGBTQ+ young people that can be reached by texting 678678. 

Transcript

Your Therapist Needs Therapy - Kari Fillian - Transcript

Attendees

Jeremy Schumacher, Kari Fillian, LICSW

Transcript

This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it was created.

Jeremy Schumacher: Hello and Welcome to Another edition of your therapist needs, therapy the podcast, where two mental health professionals, get together and talk about their mental health journey and how they navigate mental wellness while working in the mental health field. I'm your host Jeremy Schumacher, licensed marriage and family therapist.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: You ever having me? I'm glad to be here.

Jeremy Schumacher: needs therapy who are working in the religious trauma field because there's This instant overlap, most of us have in some lived experience and then our professional experience. So let's jump in there.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: Kind of how'd you get into the field?

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yeah, so it's a long and winding road. So way back to when I was thinking about career in high school, I knew I wanted to do something in the helping professions, I thought it would be a nurse. And so, part of my story, obviously, is the religious trauma peace. I grew up evangelical fundamentalist. So, mental health was not a thing that we talked about therapy was not a thing.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: That, I even knew what it was. My idea of a social worker, was someone who came and took your kids away. So, I knew I wanted to go into the helping you feel thought it was gonna be a nurse.

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: I ended up Starting my undergraduate degree to become a music teacher. I shifted away from nursing because the school I wanted to go to didn't have a nursing program. So I was like, All right, I can help people by teaching, I'm also a musician so I'll do music teacher, right good. I did that for about a year. It was like No teaching is not for me. I did not like working with a big group of kids.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: but I was really fascinated by human behavior and the idea of psychology which again was not a concept that

Kari Fillian, LICSW: 

Kari Fillian, LICSW: It was allowed to be talked about, I don't know that it was strictly prohibited, but it was not a psychology in general outside of a Christian context, was not something widely. Understood in my family and my church. So, I don't know. I was just really curious about it, so I ended up getting a degree in psychology and music. I stuck with the music there. And my final year of my undergraduate program, I did an internship with a school adjustment counselor. what we call them here in Massachusetts? The Social Worker school, counselor, And I was like This seems like a great fit.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: I can be in a school but I can meet small groups one-on-one. I also had in the back of my head, the idea of being a music therapist.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Was starting to realize I enjoyed music, obviously. And then this idea of working one-on-one with people again still really had no concept of what a therapist. Needs therapy and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: did not get in. So I was like, All right, we're gonna pivot again. And I kind of discovered social work. Felt like a really. Wide. Ranging career, At least the MSW, the master and social work offers a lot of opportunities. So I kind of dove into that degree. I was also working full-time in a school doing behavior management. Working in special Ed, it was a bit like all over the place in grad, school thought I was gonna be in a school forever, love the schedule.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: That's the only way to make money as a social worker.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: So I did that for a little bit when I graduated with my MSW, I worked in community mental health for a while. And ended up realizing I really loved that one-on-one work with families and individuals that was my favorite part of being in a school was doing the one-on-one counseling.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: So, I stuck it out in community, mental health, for a little bit, doing in home, work, and working in outpatient clinics. that's a grind. It was not sustainable way to live.

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Just I love the work unfortunately it's a burnout profession. So yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. that has been a bit of a theme with a lot of guests especially who have their degrees in social work that you get placed and…

00:05:00

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: kind of high intensity. Working situations without necessarily the tools or…

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: the skills yet to navigate it.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And you inevitably burn out because That high intensity case, loads really difficult to navigate.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yeah, I mean, I started my career once I had my graduate degree doing family therapy with families, whose children were in and out of inpatient stays or in and out of residential treatment. So some really acute cases, really intense like working with A lot of. Kids, who are actively suicidal, attempting suicide, self harm, like some pretty intense stuff for being a really young new clinician.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: And I learned a lot as a wonderful experience and I was not making enough to live on, you…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: I had the unconscious shift that's really common for new clinicians as well, where I have this phone with me. People could call 24 hours today, seven days a week and

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: I decided that was just not going to be sustainable for me. So I decided to pivot back to schools to give another try. I got my Licensure. Tried a couple schools was like, This isn't for me, I want that one-on-one work. I don't want to be doing all of this. Sort of like macro work that schools required working with families and collaterals and child welfare. So while I was still working in a school, I started my private practice thinking I would do that part time. that will kind of fill my need to do. That more intense work.

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: and long story short, I've had a Really bad experience. Working in a particular school and was like, what, I'm just gonna dive into private, practice full-time. let's see how it goes and I haven't looked back. So yes,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: that's the long story of how I got to…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, there's a lot in there.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: where I am.

Jeremy Schumacher: I highlight because probably my own personal bias coming through here but I like to highlight for a lot of us who own our own practices and are running our own practices it kind of took a negative experience in a different setting to be that push into Just dive in and do it. my experience with. It was working for somebody who was pretty unethical. And I didn't feel aligned morally with how the business practice was going. And being like, if they can do it and they're doing it this poorly, then I can do it too.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: And so, as it's a theme, I've heard from a lot of different guests. I've had on of You kind of need that external push because it's not something that we're necessarily taught or something that's recommended in grad, school to go out on your own.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yeah, yeah. I mean I always thought I need to kind of put in my time in community, mental health or in some sort of other setting before I Deserve to have a private practice and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: was like, you know what? That's just not gonna work for me. that type of thinking falls, very much into my religious trauma type thinking.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: And so as I've untangled, the religious piece, it's obviously filtered out into the rest of my life. I can offer something now.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, we both made such a disgusted face with that language when you're saying it. So yeah, do you mind talking a little bit about the deconstruction process and how that kind of fit into your professional timeline there?

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yeah.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: yeah, so like I said, I grew up in kind of a funment non-denominational version of Christianity, went to Private Christian School. I also grew up very rural in Vermont. So I didn't know anything outside of the church in my school that was My whole family was there. I ended up going to a Christian college Gordon college, which is how I ended up in Massachusetts, I'm originally from Vermont. and Gordon College, although it is a Christian school and Some people may be familiar with sort of the more recent stuff going on there that it's gotten much more conservative. Since I was there but at the time it was a much more liberal version of Christianity. Then I grew up with,

Kari Fillian, LICSW: so really going to college was my first step in that process of seeing a world outside of my little fundamentalist Calvinist bubble and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: starting with just The Bible can even be interpreted in many different ways so those small steps of just expanding my world.

00:10:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: I didn't know that. I was deconstructing. I really didn't have language for that. Until I was well out of grad school. But I started to realize, this version of Christianity, that I grew up with, it's not compatible with who I am becoming as a person.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: So yeah, I'm picturing like a coffee filter and it's just slowly. My deconstruction process was a very slow filtering of water. It didn't happen in one big Fell swoop, it's still on going. But I think going to grad school for social work was really eye-opening. And I know I've listened to some of your conversations with other social workers, talk about how the process of learning about diversity and oppression. that was really opening for me, to understand sort of the privilege that I was coming into the world with and really had no concept of

Kari Fillian, LICSW: And that's so slowly. I was starting to feel that Christianity, in general was sort of Not compatible with how I wanted to live in the world. Part of my deconstruction process, was I switched from a fundamentalist church that I grew up in a slowly made my way to an Episcopal church kind of where I landed after college. So much more open and affirming was much more aligned with where I was at and it kind of provided that safety of still being In a church which I didn't know what life outside of a church was like so it provided that's kind of containment and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: freedom. I ended up working at the church for a while, running their youth programming. Really a weird place to be deconstructing while you're working in ministry? but that was a huge part of my journey because I was realizing as I was working with teenagers, I can't. I just want these kids to know that they're loved. I don't care what they believe.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. I did.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yeah, and I know you worked in Christian Counseling Center as…

Kari Fillian, LICSW: so I wonder if that's kind of a similar experience.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, no …

Jeremy Schumacher: so much. I mean, even just you referred to it as your Calvinist bubble and that language for me is really powerful because I grew up Lutheran. So, filtering through the same Protestant and splitting at Calvin versus Luther for people…

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Mhm.

Jeremy Schumacher: who aren't religious. These were both reformers But to this day it's still referred to as the Lutheran bubble in the area and I'm not rural, I grew up in Milwaukee which is a second Tier City, but

Jeremy Schumacher: Seven hundred thousand people in the city, a million plus with the suburbs and it's still very isolated. I grew up in the church. I went to private Lutheran schools Enough of them in the area where the only people I ever interacted with playing sports was other little Lutheran kids and…

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: going to high school with other Lutheran kids. so it was even in a city,…

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: it was my only experience and that bubble Is really powerful, and Going to college, obviously, expanding my view right away, but also the science of psychology, like, learning about research methods and the statistics. And a lot of those things in addition to multicultural classes and kind of unpackaging, unpacking privilege and patriarchy and all that stuff. But it was definitely the science and the research aspect for me that was

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, no, no. What I was told really holds up. And I just kept moving more and more in my mind progressive and liberal, but still, trying to maintain some sort of Christianity. Because like you said, it's comfortable.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yeah, You don't really know anything outside of it and I think this can be hard for people who didn't grow up. in fundamentalist spaces to really understand how much that affects What you have access to, how much information you have access…

Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm

Kari Fillian, LICSW: how much mental health support? I mean, I had some pretty significant mental health challenges as a adolescent, but internalized, them all never thought that I could ask for support. I mean, it's very much. if you have these types of challenges, You don't have enough faith in God, you don't trust God enough.

Jeremy Schumacher: Right.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: And so, tears, you up inside and I didn't Know that I could ask for support. I don't know if I had asked for support, if I would even have gotten the support I needed. but yeah, it's really toxic. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and do you internalize so much of it because some of the information control in high control, religions is around scientific knowledge. And so when you don't have a framework for mental health or…

00:15:00

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yes, yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: science everything is issue of faith and so it's pray harder or you're not believing enough for the devil's tempting you or God's giving you trials. there's always a spiritual reason and…

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: so then you're never really getting to the root of the thing. I look back and I'm very adhd how that got missed growing up. The only explanation is I went to private school so nobody we didn't have a social worker. So, …

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Right.

Jeremy Schumacher: right this concept of and for me, I internalize that as I can't mess this stuff up because then I might go to hell.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yes.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yeah. Yeah.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I ended up developing a chronic illness which I think is in part genetics and in part Trauma, but it was really trying to manage my physical symptoms. That led me to getting mental health, support myself. Thankfully, I had a really great Doctor who was like, Hey, I think maybe you should go to therapy and otherwise, I don't know. I really credit my body for being something's not right here in this space. Not knowing what it was at first not really Even labeling trump might religious experience as trauma and maybe impacting my body until much later in my life, but yeah, that internalization it turns into something, right? It doesn't just go away whether it's physical symptoms or shame or whatever it is.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yeah.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Mmm.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yeah.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yeah, I've been thinking about that because I knew you would ask me. so, I think yoga As my own personal practice was probably the very first thing. I mean, and it doesn't necessarily come from healthy or origins. I think, a lot of us, especially young girls and women, there'd be grew up in diet culture. There's some disordered eating. So, I was definitely dealing with that at a young age, not to a level that I Thought I needed or got any support, but I was looking for a way to burn calories, again, super kind of unhealthy toxic stuff, but it introduced me to yoga and it ended up being A practice that I maintained through college it. I started to. Try to use yoga to help with my physical symptoms from the chronic migraines.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: And eventually, I didn't realize this didn't have the language for it…

Jeremy Schumacher: For me and that. You look back and…

Kari Fillian, LICSW: until much later, but Yoga was a way that I learned to be with my body.

Jeremy Schumacher: you say it out loud That's so unhealthy but that's how that stuff gets internalized even when it's not Said explicitly,…

Kari Fillian, LICSW: I talk a lot with folks about the experience of religious trauma purity culture,…

Jeremy Schumacher: your faith is lacking. You hear that message? And you soak it up from so many different places that's kind…

Kari Fillian, LICSW: specifically, being a disconnecting experience from your body.

Jeremy Schumacher: how your brain organizes information.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: It disembodying experience. so, I give my body a lot of credit for knowing that It needed to heal before my mind, really connected the dots.

Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm

Kari Fillian, LICSW: So yeah, over time yoga just became the way that I started to have at my body in a safer way.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: During the pandemic, I decided on a whim to just do a yoga teacher training.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: I thought it would just be for my own personal practice ended up, loving it, and ended up teaching. And then I discovered the trauma sensitive, yoga tcts why a bit of a mouthful, but that is the modality that I ended up practicing that I now teach and offer to my clients and offer in local studios. So, Backing up a little bit, I read the body keeps the score my senior year of college. I think it may have come out around, then it was just totally fascinated by the mind body connection.

Jeremy Schumacher: So, I know you.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Again, still not,…

Jeremy Schumacher: You do somatic work now and…

Jeremy Schumacher: and trauma-informed, yoga, which I definitely want to talk about.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Understanding that I also had that experience,…

00:20:00

Kari Fillian, LICSW: but like looking on it.

Jeremy Schumacher: But when did the yoga?

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Wow,…

Jeremy Schumacher: when did kind of the somatic work for…

Kari Fillian, LICSW: this is really Fascinating.

Jeremy Schumacher: pop up? Was that part of your own healing journey? Was that something that you came across, in your education that you were interested in?

Kari Fillian, LICSW: I ended up working for the organization that Bessel Vandercole worked for…

Jeremy Schumacher: Kind of? How did that start to? Filter into your work.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: which is the same organization that runs. The trauma sensitive yoga program that I did. He's no longer there and that's like a whole other story, which we don't have to get into not.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: diagnosis, that I see a lot in my office that are Physical diagnoses,…

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: they're coming from a medical doctor not for me but fibromyalgia, chronic pain Crohn's like some of the digestive stuff and…

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: starting to look at that. is there a way to alleviate or Potentially even heal. Some of these things through a more trauma-informed approach. So, Yeah,…

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: it was a big book I still think it is, I recommend it regularly where it gave practitioners a lot of different information around how to kind of process some of this stuff.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: I totally agree, and I think that in looking back and piecing together my own story, it was through the body that I Found my way to healing and deconstruction and I think that's why I'm so interested in working with other people in that way. Because we are such a disembodied. Culture and especially in religious context. I think we have to start with the body like healing has to happen in our bodies. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah. I mean let's dive in because there's a lot there. First culturally right, This concept of being disembodied, the 40 hour work week is not natural sitting at a desk, is not natural. a lot of these things, Sure.

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Food. Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: a lot of the mechanisms that keep capitalism going are unhealthy for us as human beings bad for our bodies.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yes, yeah, yeah. Totally agree. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And the attempts to fix it are so bizarre get a walking desk where you can walk and…

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Mmm.

Jeremy Schumacher: your set just don't work in an office and go outside. that is a much more natural and healthier approach to it. So it's one of those things Sure.

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: where I think culturally most of us are aware that it's not good for us and yet on a systemic level like the individual doesn't have enough agency to be able to do anything about it. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yes. Yes. 100%. and I think this is another reason why private practice ended up working so well for me is…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. that little asterisk.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Although we still work a lot, In order to make a living,…

Jeremy Schumacher: We all have to mention when we talk about…

Kari Fillian, LICSW: it allowed me to be a little bit more in charge of that and…

Jeremy Schumacher: how we love the body keeps the score but no you're talking about internalizing some of that trauma and…

Kari Fillian, LICSW: centering my body, which was my nervous system Was not doing well in a school setting in a community mental health setting.

Jeremy Schumacher: leading to some potential health issues and immediately. My brain went to in thriving body keeps the score like that.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: It was just slowly burning me out on a nervous system level and…

Jeremy Schumacher: That book was I think instrumental for a lot of people even the profession as a whole to start to Maybe.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: so being able to take back a little bit of that power and how I Structure my day and I feel very privileged to be able to do that. It's huge. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and being able to manage your time and also for me in the way that I work, it's helpful to practice, what I preach. So explaining to my clients …

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: I don't just roll into session working 40 hours a week and it's and presentable I have a day off every single day, I don't see clients on Wednesdays I have all this extra stuff in my schedule where I'm Not just dress relief but also have joy and have things that I really like to do and are important and prioritizing those things and you're right. There it does trip a privileged aspect…

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: but that's what health looks that's ideally.

Jeremy Schumacher: My sports background, I always go back to what D1, athletes have available to them, and that's what we all should have. a nutritionist to help you with your meals at a dentist to do this stuff and…

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Asks.

Jeremy Schumacher: athletic trainers to help your body,…

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: feel good and we need all those things to be healthy, actually, and most of us can't afford or don't have time for them.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: yeah, and I think even with my religious background, when I first started to Kind of access different types of healers where there was chiropractor acupuncture, massage therapy. although my body needed all of that, I didn't. feel like This gets to my core wound, right? That I was worthy of having so many people helping me,…

00:25:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: I should be able to do this all on my own and if I can't, that's my problem. accepting the help too.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Has been quite a process.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. I think that's a lot of people's core wound coming from religion …

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yeah. Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: for me my brain, I may sometimes helpfully and sometimes unhealthy intellectualize, a lot of things because that's what was rewarded in my family. And it's definitely one of those things where It shaped how it was a therapist.

Jeremy Schumacher: Needs therapy again.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yeah. Yeah.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yeah, absolutely. And at least witness other people not getting the help they needed. So you like that's what you learn, Is what other people are modeling for you.

Jeremy Schumacher: And then that sacrifice is also put on a pedestal that suffering and said in your own stuff aside is admirable.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yes. Yeah. The only form of therapy and…

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Kari Fillian, LICSW: air quoting. This was like a biblical counseling. That was really. I never thankfully had the experience,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: but that was the only sort of, church sanctioned mode of support that people could access.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, which and even when I was still a Christian and working at a Christian counseling place, I spoke out against pretty vehemently like these people are not trained.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: 

Jeremy Schumacher: Therapist needs

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yes.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yeah.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yeah, and then there's people who are qualified who are not ethical like you mentioned with original, my

Jeremy Schumacher: Just going to therapy, doesn't necessarily mean it's a good experience. That's certainly true too.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yeah. Yeah, my first experience ever going to therapy was actually quite toxic and I don't say that word lightly it was probably a borderline abusive therapeutic relationship and that it could have driven me from the field, but it actually made me want to Be someone in the world who was doing. Better. I guess to be a therapist.

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yeah, and that was not in a religious setting at all, but it very much mirrored.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: My kind of the way I was primed and religion which was like to trust, older men in authority.

Jeremy Schumacher: No, and I'm also speak out pretty regularly about bad therapist needs.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: going back a little bit to some of the periodiculture stuff I know who I've interviewed for the podcast so I'm trying to filter through what I'm gonna repeat that's been said before but it's such an expansive topic that I think there's so much to get into pretty culture does teach Overtly to ignore your body it's working against what our natural processes and then, things like spiritual bypassing and all these other tactics get kicked in. But there's this idea of your natural sex, drive is bad and wrong and…

Kari Fillian, LICSW: 14.

Jeremy Schumacher: sinful and therefore you have to work through all these different ways to ignore it or dampen it or turn it off somehow like all these things that aren't possible.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: So, you said it's disembodied and you want to talk a little bit. I'm rambling right now…

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yeah. It is a huge topic.

Jeremy Schumacher: because it's a huge topic but do you want to do?

Jeremy Schumacher: You want to jump in here a little bit?

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yeah, so I think that I did mean this is probably common,…

Kari Fillian, LICSW: I did not realize that I wasn't connected to my body until I knew what it felt like to be connected to my body. But I think purity culture that huge kind of umbrella played a huge part because it was Women. Especially, I mean, I can only speak from a female perspective, but we're taught that our bodies are so bad that they're bad, not just For ourselves, but for all the people around us for men, So it's not safe to be in a body that you're told is inherently wrong and at the same time, there's the message that when you get married to a man, right and a heterosexual relationship that somehow the switch needs to flip and…

00:30:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Okay.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: It just doesn't make sense right from that scientific perspective, that is not how our bodies work. Yeah. So for me I was also a really intellectual kid adolescent,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Right.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: again, I think that was really the only Tool I had because my body couldn't be trusted my emotions. Also not trustworthy, didn't really even know how to access emotions until I was an adult and learned.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: but I really wanted to understand okay so I'm supposed to get married so that I can follow this script for my life but there was no guidance really on how to get there. So I kind of did my own digging Unfortunately came across IKEA stating goodbye and all the work that kind of goes around that. No one was teaching me, I had no sex, education, no health class, no sex talks so I was figuring it out for myself. And had no other model to go off. So yeah, I totally bought into All of that stuff but it was also set in such a small bubble that there were no people to date. So I didn't really date either until I was in college. I just didn't have access to people or information and if you're familiar with

Kari Fillian, LICSW: I can stay in goodbye. Dating is also not the thing that you're supposed to do. It's support ship, I feel so much for that version of myself, who is just trying to figure out how to have connection and It didn't know.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: So yeah, that was my experience in purity culture. There was no true love, wait ceremony or purity rings. It was very much like an internalized. I'm gonna figure this out on my own kind of thing.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: but the experience though, what I understood from that book and other books, it was just my inherent badness, it's just reinforced. I already thought that because of the concept of total depravity which is really common in Calvinism or is a tenant of Calvinism, so it's already primed believe I'm bad. It wasn't a stretch to think that my body and my sexuality was also, Bad. totally made sense to me.

Jeremy Schumacher: And I think a lot of people who aren't raised in religion think of purity culture as the big ceremonies and the creepy dad daughter dances and stuff like that.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: But for I think a lot of us at least maybe in the evangelical community that sex was such a taboo topic that you didn't have,…

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: you didn't talk about it. that's how taboo it…

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Right.

Jeremy Schumacher: Ceremony. So nothing just like silence. And I think that that can be really harmful.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: One of the things that jumps out for me and as a guy, I got a different version of purity culture, but I remember when our school, I was just joking about this. The other day was kind of forced to give us sex Ed,…

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Mmm.

Jeremy Schumacher: which was woefully inadequate. And full of

Jeremy Schumacher: Inaccuracies but they took the girls to a different room and the boys again like that that lack of knowledge and then This idea of you you get married in a hetero monogamist relationship and everything's awesome like your wedding nights.

Kari Fillian, LICSW: Right.

Jeremy Schumacher: And of course it's not and for me working in as a licensed marriage and family therapist.

Meeting ended after 00:57:30 👋