Your Therapist Needs Therapy
Everyone needs help with their mental health, even mental health professionals. Join us as we have your therapist take a seat on the couch to talk about their own mental health journey!
Your Therapist Needs Therapy
Your Therapist Needs Therapy 22 - The Deconstructing Sex Therapist with Halli Carbrey
Jeremy is joined this week by sex therapist Halli Carbrey. We talk about some of the unique variables each person goes through deconstructing, some of the fear around leaving high control religions, and why sex therapy is so challenging yet super rewarding! It’s a fun romp of a conversation that covers a lot of ground!
You can find Halli on Instagram at the deconstructing sex therapist
Jeremy has all his practice info and other media at Wellness with Jer.
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Podcasts about therapy do not replace actual therapy, and listening to a podcast about therapy does not signify a therapeutic relationship.
If you or someone you know is in crisis please call or text the nationwide crisis line at 988, or text HELLO to 741741. The Trevor Project has a crisis line for LGBTQ+ young people that can be reached by texting 678678.
Your Therapist Needs Therapy - Halli Carbrey (2023-08-31 10:06 GMT-5) - Transcript
Attendees
Halli Carbrey, Jeremy Schumacher
Transcript
This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it was created.
Jeremy Schumacher: Working in the mental health field. I'm your host Jeremy Schumacher, licensed marriage and family, therapist Halli, Carbrey Hallie thanks for coming on. I'm excited to talk.
Halli Carbrey: Thanks so much for having me, Jeremy.
Jeremy Schumacher: We run in the same religious trauma circles on Instagram. and…
Halli Carbrey: Yes, we do.
Jeremy Schumacher: your story is really unique, I think so I'm excited. Your story is very common in some ways and very unique in other ways. So I'm excited.
Halli Carbrey: That is.
Jeremy Schumacher: I'm excited to talk about it. My starting question is always How did you get into the mental health field?
Halli Carbrey: Yeah, that's a great question. So when I was growing up, I always wanted to be an English teacher, so that's what I thought I was going to be. Of course, life had a different direction for me. I actually had an amazing English teacher in high school. Shout out to Mr. Potter and,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Mr. Potter.
Halli Carbrey: and he was my English teacher for two years in high school. And he actually said to me at one point He goes, You are a good writer and I think you really love, books but I don't actually think literature is your interest. I think it's actually the characters understanding what makes people tick and understanding humanity. And so I shifted years at that point because I think he was dead on,
Halli Carbrey: And then of course, I had the interesting journey of pursuing psychology in a very conservative fundamentalist space. I was warned by many people in that group that I was with that.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: I would be really getting into some dangerous territory. If I were to focus so much on the mind as they called it. so against all odds, I guess you can say decided to do it anyway. And so I got a bachelor's in psychology and this is a part of my story as well, but I actually did a minor in gender studies and a minor in sociology.
Halli Carbrey: And without really knowing at the time, those two minors were actually very much probably the beginnings of my deconstruction process. I don't know. for those of you who don't know, deconstruction is essentially like we had our belief system sort of constructed for us as we grew up. And then essentially we look at what is my belief system. Even constructed of let me take these pieces apart and look at them and examine them. So that began that process for me. And then I went on to pursue a masters in counseling from Moody Theater Theological Seminary.
Halli Carbrey: And that was an interesting experience as well. Ironically, it was also a part of my deconstruction journey because a lot of…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Halli Carbrey: what I was learning did not add up with what I had actually been taught growing up. And also I got to see so many different expressions of Christianity that I had never been exposed to before and people believed a myriad of different things about the Bible and so it was interesting to see this person believes a radically different sort of translation of this verse or of this idea this concept. And so ironically going to seminary I'm sure this is a part of people's story. Actually more common than we think but began to really I talk about deconstruction from me in this way. it's almost like Whack-a-mole
Halli Carbrey: There were just questions and doubts and thoughts that came up often in my life and I would just whack them down. I would just push them down for many reasons.
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Halli Carbrey: But ultimately, I did get my degree from a seminary and then I was in private, practice with some colleagues of mine from the seminary. For.
Halli Carbrey: Just about a year, when I realized that, the work that I actually wanted to do, while I was working with couples mostly and at that point, I realized, Wow, most couples are struggling in the area of sex and intimacy. And I did not have the tools that I needed to help those couples. I had always been interested in sex and sexuality and didn't shy away from taking, classes in college about, you will behavior and so on, and so forth. And then my degree in gender studies. Also, sort of lent itself to that interest as well. And then I pursued 32 weeks of post-grad training from the Institute for Relational Intimacy run by an amazing woman named Martha, Kobe. Shout out to Martha, I guess we're doing shoutouts.
00:05:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, for Love it.
Halli Carbrey: Another sort of layer of my deconstruction process because I was then forced to reckon with,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: Wow, these things that I've been taught about sex and desire and premarital sex, And all these things, it's like, wait a minute, sexual development actually, really should begin before marriage. And I can see the impact of it not beginning, and just as a little example. So now, if this mostly as a relationship and sex therapist, And it's really where I thrive. I absolutely love talking about the subject that for many people is somewhat of a taboo. So mixed and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: it feels really invigorating and interesting and fun and satisfying for me. And it's funny I tell people about my work and they're like, How are your clients today? And I'm like, my client had an orgasm.
Halli Carbrey: Finding the treatment room but that's what I do now and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Right.
Halli Carbrey: that's sort of my journey of how I became a therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, which is fascinating. There's so much in there that I want to dig into. I'm gonna try and…
Halli Carbrey: Yeah. No,…
Jeremy Schumacher: go in chronological order. We'll see how I do. Did you go to a conservative college for undergrad?
Halli Carbrey: I actually went to a public university in Buffalo,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. so I was curious…
Halli Carbrey: New York for that.
Jeremy Schumacher: because I don't know how many parochial or religious schools are gonna have gender studies some minor But yeah,…
Halli Carbrey: Totally.
Jeremy Schumacher: I mean I grew up conservative Christian as well. Evangelical, both my parents are teachers and so education was highly prized in our family so I think it was like I don't want to say a double-edged sword, but I was going to a top university in the country and my parents were glad about that because I was a good student, so I think it was the conservative part of you're not going to one of the, Lutheran schools that you got into they all accepted you because you're smart. And I was like, I'm gonna go to the big university that has all this name recognition. That's what I'm gonna do. And so I think that …
Halli Carbrey: Right.
Jeremy Schumacher: push back from the Conservative upbringing for me, I didn't get as much of it just because my parents were interested in education is good.
Halli Carbrey: Yeah. Right.
Jeremy Schumacher: So go get a good education.
Halli Carbrey: I was raised in a sect of Christianity. But the one that I was raised in, I actually refer to as a cult many people haven't heard of the specific group that I was with, and it's interesting. I'm just sort of noticing my feelings as I'm talking about it. I still have a bit of fear that surfaces when I think of mentioning the name. Of the cult.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: But it was a very unique. As you mentioned earlier, my experience has some commonality to many people's experience who are healing from religious trauma and so on. But my experience was also very unique in some senses. The cults that I was
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: Us had what I refer to as a charismatic narcissistic leader. And even just as an example of that he went so far as to translate the Bible on his own. And then we used his translation of the Bible exclusively we were not really meant to be reading any other version. It was thought of as, less than And also his translation had …
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Halli Carbrey: at the top of the page there would be maybe half or less of the page would be actual scripture and then the bottom half of the page would be his commentary or footnotes. So just right on the same page as Scripture.
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Halli Carbrey: where his thoughts and so it was almost like, how can your psyche help but to not equate, the two
Jeremy Schumacher: Right.
Halli Carbrey: and so many other examples of how sort of twisted my experience of Christianity was, We were really taught that we were sort of this elite brand of Shannon.
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Halli Carbrey: I'm sure many denominations think of themselves as the right one, but we were really taught that in a unique sense,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: so much so that sort of other believers. Didn't understand the full truth, they didn't have these so-called highest revelation.
00:10:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: And yet a huge part of the doctrine that was taught to us. Was that we are all one.
Halli Carbrey: As believers. And the idea that there should be oneness in the body of Christ was such a emphasized dogma. That it was very confusing. At all other believers were less than didn't have the sort of oracle of God that we had.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: So how could they possibly have the highest truth and so on? And yet we're all supposed to be one with them, but they were welcome to us. We would not go to them.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Right.
Halli Carbrey: And such as is sort of one of many examples of the cognitive dissonance required to maintain in that belief system.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah, I talk a lot about information control, I think is a big part of how Christianity operates. I think your story.
Halli Carbrey: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: And I've listened to you on some different podcasts talking about the cult that you grew up and is I think one of severity because it's, like, the charismatic leader and the Bible translation. But I grew up with that without the charismatic leader I grew up in a small Lutheran sack the most conservative one that exists and they have their own translation because the NIV was bad, so they were gonna get something different and…
Halli Carbrey: Unless that's really little loose translation of NIV,…
Jeremy Schumacher: like it.
Halli Carbrey: and don't about the message translation.
Jeremy Schumacher: I know. But that idea of people can come to our church and join us, but we can't go to them. they're gonna go to heaven and we'll celebrate with them someday, but we shouldn't pray with them because that could damage our souls. And just this constant,…
Halli Carbrey: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: like you said, cognitive dissonance. And it's in group biases. So Christians are better than non-believers…
Halli Carbrey: Mmm.
Jeremy Schumacher: but also we're the most specialist Christians and it's very like I think shifting sounds on purpose so that you keep kind of latching on to your brand.
Halli Carbrey: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that, they play into our need as human beings or are supposed need as human beings for certainty and safety. And so someone is purporting to have the answer or to know the truth or to have the right group and so on and so forth especially as we're growing up that sense of certainty is so Helpful, in a sense, even though it's not actual certainty, it feels like and so that sort of keeps us feeling safe and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: grounded and we're with the right people. So we're in the safe group, we get to go, to heaven and all that. But really so much of life is about tolerating uncertainty. So much of life is uncertain and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Right.
Halli Carbrey: so yeah that's been interesting. I,
Halli Carbrey: Had several, I would say pivotal experiences with deconstruction and it's interesting. as a therapist
Halli Carbrey: Needs therapy,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Right.
Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm
Halli Carbrey: Your therapist needs therapy is like, I had to go through so much turmoil in our turmoil and turmoil in my life and so much therapy of my own and, understanding what is relig.
Halli Carbrey: Trauma. How is this affecting me? And then, of course, triggers coming up with my own clients sometimes, and I still deal with that a little bit, to this day, but mostly I feel very well equipped to be in a treatment room with someone who has radically different beliefs than I do, even though I used to hold similar beliefs maintain,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Halli Carbrey: my sense of professionalism and tactfulness and calm really. So it's sort of exposure therapy in a…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: Okay, here we go. Exposure exposed to someone who is very fundamentalist but I'm over here with my Set of beliefs, and feelings, and experiences, and my own journey and they're over there and that's okay. And I think that's actually Anti-fundamentalist.
00:15:00
Halli Carbrey: In a…
Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: So yeah, I don't know. If I remember your original question, I was just sort of talking there.
Jeremy Schumacher: No, I think that's interesting as therapist needs. I would say the stereotypical which they deconstruct during college. And my story is,…
Halli Carbrey: Right.
Jeremy Schumacher: there's a lot of overlap with everybody, I talked to who's deconstructed because I think they're just some common experiences but for me deconstruction was as a 10 year old,…
Halli Carbrey: .
Jeremy Schumacher: I had serious doubts, but not wasn't intellectually in a place where I could actually engage with them. And so, it's just like that, talk to your pastor, Pat on the head, I didn't want to go to heaven. When I was 10, I was like, that sounds terrible, and I don't want to sing forever. I'm not musically gifted. And I was like that sounds terrible. But you have these kind of moments where you have a lot of question or you have a lot of doubt and kind of how that gets responded to is. I think
Jeremy Schumacher: Helpful or hurtful honestly. and so you can say and a lot longer as somebody who like for me, I worked at a Christian counseling place, that was the start of my professional career and…
Halli Carbrey: Right.
Jeremy Schumacher: it was one of those things where I think that. Hastened my deconstruction because I had all the scientific knowledge, about how psychology and human development and a marriage therapist.
Halli Carbrey: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: Right.
Jeremy Schumacher: But I was so far to the liberal and progressive side that was like, I didn't even fit in at my Christian counseling place because I was like, Hey, we shouldn't pray with our clients that's unethical and everyone was like but we're Christian counselors so we should do that. I was like Nah, that's not ethical. we need permission for that. So, I think it's interesting. And then, when you deconstruct This is an interesting topic because it pops up for me. Still too is If you look at my resume or I don't know, it's probably out there somewhere on the Internet, I don't know. But it's all the Christian stuff like I was on church council. I worked at a Christian college. I worked at a Christian counseling center so Christians still fight me and I'm pretty openly atheist now but it's still one of those things where that pattern or people remember me from a couple years ago or they knew I worked with their friend or whatever and it's like
Jeremy Schumacher: How upfront do you want to be? Is a therapist, The triggers certainly feel different.
Halli Carbrey: Yes.
Halli Carbrey: That is so Said and such an accurate description of my own experience to. I will do sometimes if a client calls into our office and asks for a faith-based counselor but they really need sex therapy and so I will sort of do a screening call with clients and all
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: Ask a little bit about them and I'm absolutely open with every client that I am not a Christian and I do not provide faith-based counseling and then if they want to proceed with, me as a non-Christian therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Okay.
Halli Carbrey: Am service to God. This is actually a part of…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Halli Carbrey: what made it culty? Is that we had such different language for everything. So it really,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: enhanced that group feeling and our terms made the most sense. Our language was, what distinguished us. Of course,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: more than language too. But I'm now divorced and my ex-husband was a full-timer He was in full-time service to God and Unfortunately, that really caused me a lot of pain and I see him both as the victim of the system that we were in. And also, a perpetrator of the harm. That existed. And so it's a confusing. Perspective to have at time, but
00:20:00
Halli Carbrey: He was raised in the call, just like I was But unfortunately, what the cult taught, both implicitly and explicitly. Was that essentially, the more that you sort of had to abandon your wife and children, in service, to God, the more reward, there would be for that.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: And pulling from those verses who it's funny verses are now hard for me to recite because I don't remember them as much. I used to. But there's that talks about hating your mother and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: father and brother and sister and some translations include wife in there. they says he does not hate them is not worthy of me, and so they really pulled from that verse and others and so anytime prior to having children. But we had kids pretty early on because that's just what you did. Prior to having children. It was hard because I felt very Just profoundly lonely. We immediately moved to a new city in, his service.
Halli Carbrey: And then very soon after began having kids and so before having kids it was so lonely. But God needed my husband more than I did. And so that was really hard to navigate both as a wife, but also, just as a human being, I couldn't quite understand why I couldn't get it together. Why couldn't we just experience?
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Halli Carbrey: God's grace, as all sufficient? Why did I still need this human connection? And so that was a really hard time for me. And then after having kids, I just remember especially this one instance where I said, I'm having a really hard time putting our two-year-old and our baby to bed at the same time and he had on many nights for meetings so on. And I remember thinking to myself God isn't down here, changing diapers, and wiping butts.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: so this isn't working But the message was always and not just for my ex-husband but also from church leaders was like, You have an honorable calling in that, your husband is in service to God. And so this is really a gift to you. You get hardship and suffering more than others. and that's a gift because you get to rely on God, so much more. And so there's all this internalized shame because struggled whenever I was having a hard time,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: the messages essentially you need to rely on God more. And that's such a blessing that you get to do that more than have their husbands home,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: helping their kids helping to put the kids to that. And so that really ultimately when I look back was a really significant part of my deconstruction process. Now, that's messed up.
Halli Carbrey: But you mentioned,…
Jeremy Schumacher: But it's a podcast.
Halli Carbrey: go ahead.
Jeremy Schumacher: So people can't see my real-time reactions, but I had to shake it off when you said some of that because it's so gross one.
Halli Carbrey: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: I think, just the obvious spiritual bypassing which is something that working with clients around religious trauma is such a helpful concept for them to be Where there's growth opportunities are where there's opportunity to dig in and understand your belief system. You just slap a verse on it and don't do any of the growing and that's kind of how I describe spiritual bypassing and it's really helpful for people. But also just how invalidating of your experience to be somehow it's your fault. So we're victim blaming like you're not trusting God, enough and then saying, your struggle is a gift which is just the weaponization of unhelpful human experience.
Halli Carbrey: Absolutely, it was very painful, and I wasn't perfect either, but yeah, you mentioned earlier that you're deconstruction was sort of over 20 years. And it's interesting to look back on my own experience because I actually think that without knowing there was some deconstruction attempting to happen. but it was too, kind of all along the way for me, I remember being kind of the kid in youth group who was asking a lot of hard questions and I remember youth pastor.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: That's, of course, not the term we used but essentially youth pastor, He would get a little annoyed with me.
00:25:00
Halli Carbrey: And I think there was this, resistance inside of me all along that was wait a minute, this doesn't add up and I remember meeting working definitions for things. I was like No…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: what is grace? What do you mean? Or I can't even think of other concepts what is eternal life? was that does that Where does other people didn't see? Just sort of seem to take it in stride more than I could. and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: so I think for me deconstruction was sort of a long process without really knowing it, but it was really too risky. First of all, I was risking my entire community.
Halli Carbrey: And lot and life. my parents are actually not very much involved with the cult anymore, and I was raised that so I was risking family.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: I was risking all of my friends. I was risking this, network of people that I knew all over the world by questioning. And also, when you have doubts, it's evidence of your faithlessness and that there's even could be …
Jeremy Schumacher: Right.
Halli Carbrey: demonic influence. I was Told that as I deconstructing. So really on so many levels, it was too risky for me to deconstruct fully along the way. And so, for me it deconstruction actually happened hard and fast.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: there was sort of a time. recently where
Halli Carbrey: It was like I couldn't play whack-a-mole anymore, they were just popping up too much and that beach ball that you, hold down under the water, just came flying out. So, really interesting and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: I had to go to The process. Everything that was happening in my life because I was deconstructing and divorcing at the same time. So essentially all of the structures and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Halli Carbrey: all of the givens in my life were no longer Remember at times feeling like almost,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: not quite derealization but I was sort of like, what is real.
Halli Carbrey: what is my life? What do I hold on to all of the things that I used to, claim as little points of security? We're no longer there and I was also initiating the divorce. And so at the same time that I was deconstructing and divorcing, many people were not happy with me.
Jeremy Schumacher: This is maybe an unimportant question, but I'm curious.
Jeremy Schumacher: What was like your experience, finding a therapist?
Halli Carbrey: That's a really good question. So I've seen several therapist. The first one I saw was actually for some disordered eating and body image struggles that I was going through back in college. So that was my first experience with therapy really great experience. And then
Halli Carbrey: Talk to a therapist needs Much just disqualify, he's a secular therapist.
Halli Carbrey: And we went through three people which was an interesting experience. The first one just kind of wasn't a good fit. Second one I had an interesting experience where I told her that I was deconstructing and that I was really processing, some trauma around my religious experience and I didn't know she was a Christian therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Halli Carbrey: Chastised me. The way that a person in my cult would have,…
Jeremy Schumacher: I don't know.
Halli Carbrey: she said, You need to let go of all of these questions and these doubts and you need to let God, take over your life and you need to. I mean, it was preaching and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Which is.
Halli Carbrey: So much. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Bad therapy. And just yeah, as a therapist.
Halli Carbrey: I can't even think of a time that I've ever said to a client and she was actually pointing her finger at me saying You need to. I don't think I've ever done that with my clients both pretty deconstruction or…
00:30:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: after it really rattled me.
Jeremy Schumacher: Right.
Halli Carbrey: And so I knew that from then on I needed to Be with the secular therapist therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Halli Carbrey: Narcissistic abuse. And while she didn't have a lot of knowledge of religious trauma,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Okay.
Halli Carbrey: I had personally taken some training at that point both as a sort of lay person and as a therapist needs therapy trauma.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: There were other things in her profile.
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Halli Carbrey: the religious trauma piece but she was on board to learn and that is what really made a lot of the difference.
Halli Carbrey: So she really became well acquainted with religious trauma,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: eye center, all of the sort of worksheets and handouts and things and videos to watch. And so that is something I think that people should know about seeking therapy is that…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: if there is an area that you really need some specific help with and for whatever reason, you're not able to find a therapist needs the
Halli Carbrey: So that we can work well together.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and I was gonna highlight like that. So good of you, as a client to advocate for yourself, in that way and say Hey, this is something that I want to get out of therapy. is that a thing that we can work together on?
Halli Carbrey: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Can you do your work as the professional while I'm doing my work as a client which totally appropriate. I tell clients is more maybe on the side of medical help than therapy help. Once they found me at least but right. You need to advocate for yourself clinicians, medical doctors. All these people have their own cognitive biases on how they, like to work and the things they like to do. And so making sure that you're if you're paying for a service that you're getting the service that you want,
Halli Carbrey: Right. Absolutely. Yeah. And also that clinician does have the right to say No that's just sort of realistically not within their bandwidth at that time,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Right.
Halli Carbrey: …
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: then I would hope that at that point, they would help you to find point you in the right direction to find what you need. But it is something that you can absolutely ask for. And then also, of course, within the therapy experience as well, not just prior to finding a therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: Structure for how to grow between sessions. Please let me know and I'll be happy to come up with something.
Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: Not happy…
Halli Carbrey: but I'll do it.
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, it's literally part of my informed consent for clients like…
Jeremy Schumacher: if your Type A and you need Workbooks and homework, I might not be the best therapist needs.
Halli Carbrey: Right.
00:35:00
Halli Carbrey: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Which I think is I think it's helpful. I think it's good for clients to be upfront and again, advocate for what they want and need, and I think it's good for therapist.
Halli Carbrey: And that's been sort of an interesting part of my journey as a therapist. And at the same time we get to be authentic, human beings too.
Jeremy Schumacher: And yeah.
Halli Carbrey: And sometimes that is actually a part of what is beautiful and healing for a client. And that doesn't mean, of course, I'm sharing my story all the time with clients…
Jeremy Schumacher: Right.
Halli Carbrey: but there's this type of therapy that we call interpersonal process therapy where a lot of the material that's processed in the room, is actually like what's going on between the therapist need. In the room. And then of course, what happens between therapist
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, for I'm gonna do a hard left turn here. let's talk about sex because that's what you like to work with. I was still a couple like sex and money are the number one. And number two things that get couples to come into therapy. as a marriage therapist, so for me sex was I had this blank,…
Halli Carbrey: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: almost a blank slate because I had next to no education and what I was educated on was almost exclusively incorrect.
Jeremy Schumacher: so that when I went to undergrad and my master's and everything and learned about sexuality, it was almost like, I just approached it from a scientific perspective because I had no background growing up like we didn't do purity culture ceremonies like sex was so taboo. You just didn't talk about it and…
Halli Carbrey: Right. …
Jeremy Schumacher: and the religious group
Halli Carbrey: we're not even gonna teach purity culture, that's how taboo it is. Right. That'll work.
Jeremy Schumacher: Because we don't want you to think about it. so for me, that was helpful in a sense, in a weird way, because then as a marriage therapist,
Halli Carbrey: Mmm.
Halli Carbrey: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Building into working not exclusively, but having a niche around working with sex.
Halli Carbrey: Yeah, it's interesting. I think, sometimes the way that we're raised really informs how we experience life, and then sometimes we really develop in spite of it. And I think,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm
Halli Carbrey: for me, it was the latter. sex was so taboo in the group growing up, I mean, even like thoughts of sex and so on where really shamed and that kind of thing. So I have a similar experience and that I wasn't actually really taught purity culture in the same way that some people experienced it, it was just sort of this vacuum and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: so, I think. I somehow escaped a lot of the personal impact.
Halli Carbrey: From all of that, I'm still understanding but how that translates to my work with clients now is that I really do have an understanding of what it was like for sex to be so taboo. much shame around it and I see the impact of purity culture with my clients who are either still in evang Spaces or who have sort of moved away from them and are looking to heal in their individually,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: but also in their sexual lives.
00:40:00
Halli Carbrey: And I see that all the time. The analogy I used is for your whole life, you were told, Don't go outside, it's too dangerous, it's too scary. You could get hit by a bird. Could poop on you, you could get diseases. You're gonna get sunburned. it's actually immoral to even consider going outside because of how risky it is because of how dirty it is and so on. And don't even look outside, don't even consider it because then you're gonna want it more.
Halli Carbrey: So there was really this sort of systematically programmed fear response to shame and so your nervous system learns to respond, one way to this topic, and then what happens is, you have a committed partner. You're getting married. Okay, you're married. You have someone. You can go outside with. That makes it a little more acceptable. What do you mean? You don't want to run out the door? what's wrong with you?
Jeremy Schumacher: Right.
Halli Carbrey: It's a beautiful day. go explore all that. There is to see outside. What do you mean? You are having a hard time rushing to explore and to feel comfortable going outside for your whole life, you were told
Halli Carbrey: that was risky and dangerous and dirty and bad and so So I work a lot within the paradigm of the nervous system under and our reactions and our responses to sexual material. And, a little bit of psycho education, I guess if you will, but the sympathetic nervous system response that fight flight freezer fawn response is really an interrupter to the sexual excitation system or, our accelerator.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: so much of my work has to do with helping people to learn what's blocking their parasympathetic, nervous system state that rested, relaxed, your digest, your food, in this state, and you also experience arousal and orgasm in this. And so, the religious messages actually are continuing to activate that sympathetic nervous system response. And so, we have to work from a cognitive place to really unpack these messages and do they hold up against science? What do you think about the Bible being inerrant and infallible and so on and so forth and really helping people to Us that parasympathetic nervous system state in, but It's hard for many people.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and the psychoeducation is great and spot on, but I love that analogy. I'm totally gonna steal that in the future.
Halli Carbrey: Before.
Jeremy Schumacher: But it's also right sex around purity culture is brought up in a threatening way, you're gonna get pregnant or you're gonna get an STD or your future spouse won't love you. so, all of that is in your brain processes threat a certain way.
Halli Carbrey: Yeah, or you get yourself away and that kind of thing.
Jeremy Schumacher: So that's where the fight or flight comes in and so it's like I don't know of a way to escape some of that stuff. if you're being indoctrinated in this, you're gonna have to learn how to unpack some of it and learn a different way, because it's all threat based in and around purity culture.
Halli Carbrey: Yeah, and I actually do a lot of exposure therapy or a systematic desensitization with people to sort of help them to become more comfortable around this thing that was categorized as threatening for so long. So it really is a significant process.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: It really is heavy.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: Full process to heal from this indoctrination, but that's of course not the only type of sex therapy that I do. There's lots of different aspects of the sexual.
Halli Carbrey: Relationship that I struggle with, and I just love seeing people experience shifts in their ways of thinking about sex, I find that to be one of the most effective ways of helping people is, you don't just have to go from, making out to a little bit of touching to intercourse to orgasm. And you're done, there's actually more of a circular model that we can use just little things like that.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: And watching people sort of have this shift in their understanding that, then they can use in their daily lives. That's just a little example of it but that is just one of the most rewarding things for me.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I love the paradigm shifts, it's one thing I think to give people tools and techniques that are helpful. I'm gonna nerd out unlike family or systems therapy stuff a little bit.
Halli Carbrey: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: But we talk about, first order change, which is kind of al Second order change, which is kind of like another person changing with you and then third order change which is a belief system change and…
00:45:00
Halli Carbrey: Right.
Jeremy Schumacher: so when we can do all of those things like That's the change that's lasting, that's the change that's going to stick with you not just be like, I gotta go back to therapy every six months, Those are the things that,…
Halli Carbrey: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: no, when we shift that belief system, or the paradigm shifts, then our partnerships with us, or partners shift with us. And then we have this skills and the behaviors that are helpful it's totally different experience, then
Halli Carbrey: Absolutely because when those core beliefs and those belief systems shift then the same behaviors aren't sort of manifesting from that. And so it's really lasting change and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: really significant changes, you said
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and I have had a couple seconds sex educators on the podcast because I think one around religious trauma is just super common because periodiculture is toxic. But …
Halli Carbrey: Okay.
Jeremy Schumacher: even for people who didn't grow up in religion sex if you grew up in America sex is kind of bill a taboo topic.
Halli Carbrey: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: We talked about kind of distance before it's weird cognitive dissonance because media is hypersexualized and yet there's almost no useful or helpful information around at the topic. So it's like throw sex and people's faces but not in any sort of helpful or informative way.
Halli Carbrey: Totally. And then, I've had people who've come to me and they've been struggling for years and years and they may not have grown up in religious spaces, but they still have nowhere to process these things. No one's sort of give them any insight or…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: help or education. And so, I've had people who's, sit down on my couch and they're like, we've been married for seven years and we are struggling and they just immediately start to because it's such a relief to have a space where we can actually talk about these things and that's part…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: why I love doing sex therapy.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and I always think it's fascinating, I think. I've been doing this for almost 15 years, which makes me feel old but Whenever I tell couples this is something I've worked with before and this is something I've worked with earlier this week. this isn't like a weird or…
Halli Carbrey: Right.
Jeremy Schumacher: unique or you're not crazy, you're not bad or broken like this is a common experience for people.
Halli Carbrey: Totally. Yeah, it's such a relief like, Okay, wait, I'm might have a shot at processing this in a helpful way with someone who knows what they're doing. my gosh, that changes everything.
Jeremy Schumacher: For sure and you talked about accelerators. So I'm gonna Jump and make an assumption that we're going off of the Emily Nagoski model which is the dual control model accelerators and decelerators Basically your brain has a gas pedal and…
Halli Carbrey: Yep.
Jeremy Schumacher: a pedal end up parking brake I would say. And for some people, there's a lot of pressure on that gas pedal or the parking brakes on. And so, no matter how hard you hit the gas, it's very hard to get going.
Halli Carbrey: Absolutely. Yeah, and those religious messages step on the brake pedal, significantly, those,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: that systematic fear response that was programmed into you in so many different ways. explicitly in the way that your parents might have responded to you, as a young child, who's exploring their genitals, which is a very normal. And actually important part of human sexual development,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: the way that your parent responded to you sometimes those things are so embedded in our psyche that they actually continue to step on our break pedal, even if you cognitively buy into the idea that now sex is appropriate and acceptable once you're married or…
Jeremy Schumacher: Right.
Halli Carbrey: whatever. And so really unpacking, all that can be stepping on people's brake pedals is such important part of all of it. So yeah, exactly, like you said that understanding the break. Pedal piece is huge.
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, I'm gonna guess our experience is a little different because our gender because for me working as a dude like That's been nice as a marriage therapist needs.
Halli Carbrey: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: Right.
Halli Carbrey: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: Right.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, it's I don't know, I just read a study the other day. That said, The only damage that's done with pornography, like a meta-analysis was people who have religious beliefs that say pornography is bad. It's the cognitive dissonance is the harmful piece.
00:50:00
Halli Carbrey: Yes, I totally relate with that shift in understanding that you're referencing as well. I had a client who felt so relieves the other day because he was talking about his masturbation habits and he just felt so much shame around them. And he said, Do I have an addiction Is this something that's wrong with me? I just can't seem to help stop. And of course, with any behavior that is sort of compulsive. We want to look at its function, dysfunction. but his habits were completely within the realm of normal and, …
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: it's just such a relief for, someone who has the expertise to say, give him the stamp of approval like you're not broken nothing.
Jeremy Schumacher: Right.
Halli Carbrey: Thing is wrong with This is completely normal and there are benefits to this. And so,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: whoa, that just changes everything. That shifts.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, Isn't it funny to have? some of these conversations is our everyday job thinking of how of a conservative upbringing you
Halli Carbrey: Totally. have you mentioned that you heard me on another podcast and…
Jeremy Schumacher: I always.
Halli Carbrey: I actually really got some significant backlash from people that I still know and there are a lot of people that were not happy with me and I'm sure they won't be happy with me for this one. That is been a significant part of my healing is I feel like deconstructing and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: divorcing in a context or divorce is not acceptable. Has actually really thrown me into this
Halli Carbrey: Codependency recovery journey where I have had to become so,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Halli Carbrey: okay, with being different and with not having people's approval and not having the acceptance that I once used to in a cult. And so it's an interesting process for me just existing as myself,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: both as a parent and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: a human being, and someone who does podcasts and someone who, practices as a therapist. So people can see what I'm doing.
Halli Carbrey: And then having to deal with some resistance to that used to really throw me into a tailspin and I would experience shame and really significantly would throw off my mental health for a while, and so now doing it.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: I just feel so much like Peace, because I can do these things. I can put myself out there, I can be different than conservatives, and, people who have a different belief system than me and I'm okay.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: It's pretty wonderful. It feels pretty good.
Jeremy Schumacher: it's very free and I have this conversation with clients often because I advertise as working specifically with religious trauma but it's,…
Halli Carbrey: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: I have to remind myself of the journey to get there because where I'm at right now is right like that, push back or that negative feedback from religious people just fuels me I'm not you anymore and it's so much better over here.
Halli Carbrey: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: But for people who are deconstructing, it's very scary. so I have to remind myself being like Hey it's freeing is like at that there's a process there's a journey to get into that point…
Halli Carbrey: Don't.
Jeremy Schumacher: but just The relief around letting a lot of that stuff go and being able to exist and have grace for yourself and self-compassion, it's nice.
Halli Carbrey: Nice.
Jeremy Schumacher: And I don't know, we don't have to talk about this if you don't want to, but it's as a parent for me, it's been very freeing to be I would say that was the start of the final last gasp of being a Christian was having a kid and being like I'm not teaching them like original sin, I'm not teaching them Noah's Ark that's not true. I know I can't pass that on to another generation and…
Halli Carbrey: Yes.
Jeremy Schumacher: so that for me was right where I just admitted because it was for my kid instead of for me this isn't healthy.
Halli Carbrey: I totally understand that. I do have a different experience in that, my ex-husband being a full-timer, there really was not a lot of space for me to Push back and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Halli Carbrey: push away. And so I'm really grappling with this now even in my therapy journey but I raised my kids in a fundamentalist way for a while and they're only eight, six and four. And so it's not like the damage can't be undone kind of thing, but
Halli Carbrey: My ex-husband is still fundamentalist and so he will be raising that way and,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
00:55:00
Halli Carbrey: we've already had some interesting conversations and, I have to be really mindful of it's not my job to force them attempt to even, pull them toward what I believe. It's my job to be a safe space for them to process.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: What is coming up for Those inevitable questions and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: those inevitable struggles, And so right now they Do believe in Noah's Ark for example. As far as I know,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Halli Carbrey: but I love anytime. They ask me. why don't you believe in God, Mom.
Halli Carbrey: And it's sort of Here's an opportunity where I get to be authentic and I get to at least tell them in a child appropriate way, sort of like what I went through and what I struggled with and that it's okay to not know
Jeremy Schumacher: And I think, even just It's very not fundamentalist to have a choice. And be aware that there are options. So, it's not an option for a little kid to think,…
Halli Carbrey: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Believe this or the other option is that's not an actual option. And so even just I think having the perspective or having people around who are like You can believe that or…
Halli Carbrey: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: you cannot believe that and either one is, okay, and…
Halli Carbrey: Totally. yeah,…
Jeremy Schumacher: that's very free. And I think
Halli Carbrey: I'm big on analogies and so the analogy that I use is Imagine if I told my children that they had to keep their room spotless at all times or else, that I almost can't even say it because it's so horrible. But the analogy really works in that if they don't keep their room spotless at all times, I will hold their hand to the stove. I will burn them for the rest of their existence like holy wow.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: And so of course they're gonna keep their room spotless even though they're actually not because that's not possible. They're children,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Right.
Halli Carbrey: they're human beings, but is it really a choice? Is the point that you made, and I use that analogy with,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: sort of understanding what happened to me.
Halli Carbrey: And also the impact that can have on children a lot to understand, they're actually wasn't a choice.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I hate the phrase unevenly yoked and I hate when I have to bring it up but it is an interesting process I think for a couple who don't deconstruct. I don't say together because I think it's an individual process most of the time, but there's overlap for a lot of couples that I've seen, coming out of covid. I've talked about politics too, in the United States, being a pretty big thing where some of the mass exodus that's happening. From churches, some couples are going through it together and then it is. not insurmountable, but I would say stickier when it's not happening at the same time or the same pace,
Halli Carbrey: It did not go well for me to be deconstructing with someone who very much was not. And I think actually he became even more entrenched in his beliefs,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: some sort of as a resistance to my resistance. And so that very much a part…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: what was so hard.
Jeremy Schumacher: which is for people who don't work with it, a possible outcome of cognitive dissonance like you can't just Try and bang someone over the head with it, until they're cognitive distance goes away. Because sometimes the way that the brain tooths itself is to dig in harder, on whatever that belief is, which happens a lot with conspiracy theories.
Halli Carbrey: Right.
Jeremy Schumacher: Which are common among fundamentalists separate topic for a different podcast.
Halli Carbrey: Interesting.
Jeremy Schumacher: Shifting a little bit again I was like to ask kind of like What are you reading? What are you watching That can be professional or kind of recreational both I guess.
Halli Carbrey: Yeah. That's a good question. I unfortunately don't get a lot of time to read. I'm a huge reader but most of my books are just on audible and I don't retain a ton of information from audible,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Halli Carbrey: but a book that I'm certain that you have heard of or read is leaving the fold by when Dr. Winnell. What's your first name Mary?
Jeremy Schumacher: yep, Marlene
Halli Carbrey: Marlene. Yeah, and that book of course was extremely pivotal in my whole journey and I'm still doing some of the inner child work that book does and…
Jeremy Schumacher: sure.
Halli Carbrey: so that is sort of a professional and personal read, I read a lot of books on sex therapy.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
01:00:00
Halli Carbrey: You mentioned Emilina, goskey Come as You Are if anyone's looking for kind of a beginner's Intro.
Halli Carbrey: To learning about some helpful paradigm shifts with sex that is a great place to start and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: I read a little bit more of these days for pleasure. if I do get a chance to read because part of my religious trauma is that I felt like I had to be productive at all times in order to feel worthy and valuable and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Halli Carbrey: so I attempt now even as a way of practicing some self-care to do things that are explicitly not productive.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: And so, just even if I were to, lay outside in the sun or something, I would always want to be reading or working on paperwork or doing something that was semi-productive or at least helped me to squelch the anxiety that came up about not being productive. So, I attempt to push back against that now reading for pleasure, and so I'm rereading unbroken by, I think, Laura Helen Brand, but I'm not great with remembering names. It's a World War Two. not in book…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Halli Carbrey: but it's a really great.
Jeremy Schumacher: I struggle and I ask this because I think I'm curious what? Other therapist?
Halli Carbrey: Absolutely.
Jeremy Schumacher: That can be draining to engage with it too much outside of the work it's helpful to get information and…
Halli Carbrey: Yes.
Jeremy Schumacher: different perspectives but also there's a balancing act to not do too much because that can contribute to burnout or just a mismanagement of overall stress.
Halli Carbrey: Yeah, and I would say that, that's actually what you're describing has actually been a really significant part of my healing journey. Overall is just being more sort of in tune with my body and those signals of burnout and sort of like What am I inclined to do right now? Not just like, should I be doing or What do I need to do? What is my body Actually communicating to me about what I would like to eat about what I would like to do or not. Do and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: you have when you've been outsourcing that for so long to all these external standards or expectations or shoulds, if you will become, it's very challenging to reconnect with self.
Halli Carbrey:
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: So as a very broad stroke top,…
Halli Carbrey: idea, that is a significant part of my healing journey as well, is that reconnection with authentic self finding out who that even is and what she wants, and what she's about and what feels good to me into my body.
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, and that journey is Complex and I would say never really ends.
Halli Carbrey: No.
Jeremy Schumacher: There's not an endpoint, we're constantly changing, but I also super rewarding. that's the work that I think as a therapist, the journey that is. So it's special to be helpful in any way that I can in that process. But also to witness or to see people Discovering that or establishing it, maybe for the first time or doing some of that work like it's very cool work.
Halli Carbrey: Yeah, absolutely. And interestingly, it was actually both very hard and also Helpful to be a therapist needs therapy away from my eyes,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Halli Carbrey: as I open my laptop and get on.
Halli Carbrey: All a virtual something with someone and then I get to see the resilience of humanity and the beauty in it,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: and sometimes there would be real tangible progress. And so I would go from this place of feeling hopeless to wait a minute. I'm actually walking alongside someone that has hope and that has, tenacity and that has resilience and strength and it was really challenging to be frank being a therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: I'm always inspired by the work. My clients are doing as well, it's I not to be cliche but I learned so much from my clients and they're coming to, It help get my help but it's a two-way street. I can't imagine how to do good therapy, where you're not as a therapist.
01:05:00
Halli Carbrey: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: so, It's interesting though. with the deconversion I think for me once I was ready to be right, I don't believe this stuff and I'm an atheist now like that was my more authentic self. I think my deconstruction took so long that it was just waiting for my brain to finally Be like, Yeah, no we're done with that. And then I was like, I imagine the image I have in my head is like those people who pull a dinner, cloth out from under all the plates and…
Halli Carbrey: And yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: silverware and everything stays put, that's kind of what it was like for me it was like, all right, I'm an atheist now and I was like this is so much nicer and easier and better and healthier is I could apply all the things I taught my clients and they're much more genuine Easy real way. I had been doing so much work to stay a Christian at once. I let that go is like Yeah, no, this makes more sense.
Halli Carbrey: my gosh, that just hits the nail on the head for me in my own experience. And I think when we are operating from more of an authentic place as a therapist
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, for sure.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah. it's been awesome. if people want to find out more about you or…
Halli Carbrey: Thanks for having me.
Jeremy Schumacher: find out about your work, where do they go?
Halli Carbrey: Yeah, so you can head to my instagram to start because I have had a really challenging time getting a website up and running but it should be up and running very soon. But my,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Halli Carbrey: my instagram handle is the deconstructing sex therapist. Needs Therapying,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: your sex life for having a baby.
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Halli Carbrey: And so I'm running some groups in my therapy practice which is based in Michigan. And so, if you're in Michigan, I can see there. But outside of Michigan, I am doing some coaching as well,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Nice.
Halli Carbrey: that'll be sort of through my website and so why you can find me there as soon as it's up.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Halli Carbrey: But to start, you can go to the deconstructing period sex therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, which we will have linked in the show notes and I highly recommend I don't like social media. I think I'm bad at it but You shared a lot of personal stuff in your journey and I remember there was a three-part post you made. that was pretty intensely personal. And that was when I was like, I gotta get halli on the podcast because this is exactly the stuff that we talked about. very genuine in your posting which I think is so helpful for people to see. So yeah,…
Halli Carbrey: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: we'll have that in the show notes and depending on when this episode goes live, we might be able to circle back and get your website listed as well.
Halli Carbrey: It sounds good. I'll keep it.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah and all my stuff as always is available at Wellness with Jared.com and that's my social media handle for Instagram and YouTube as well Halli. Thanks for coming on. And to all our wonderful listeners out there.
Halli Carbrey: Thanks for having me. This is great.
Jeremy Schumacher: Thanks once again for tuning in. We'll be back next week with another new episode. Take care of everyone.
Meeting ended after 01:09:05 👋