Your Therapist Needs Therapy 25 - The Traumatic Origin Stories of Superheroes with Jason Aaron

This week Jeremy is joined by Harvey and Eisner Award winning comic book writer Jason Aaron. Jeremy and Jason talk about themes of belief, worthiness, and religious trauma in his work, why every superhero story has trauma, the intergenerational trauma in Scalped, Southern Bastards, and his run on Thor. We also talk about storytelling in sports and pro wrestling, and why Lucha Underground remains a high point in pro wrestling history. We genuinely nerd out on a lot of topics, and it is a super fun conversation with one of the best comic writers in the world.

Jason had an epic run writing Thor, has written Star Wars, Wolverine, Avengers, Conan, Dr. Strange, Ghost Rider, Punisher and more for Marvel, wrote the amazing western noir Scalped for Vertigo, and the award winning (and easy top 3 personal pick for Jeremy) Southern Bastards as well as The Goddamned for Image comics. Currently, Jason is writing Once Upon A Time at the End of the World for Boom Studios, and recently announced an upcoming run on Batman at DC. You should read any and all of those, and you can find more from Jason at his website, or follow him on Substack and Instagram.

You can find more about Jeremy’s practice at Wellness with Jer, or watch him talk about mental health topics in comics, music, and movies on his YouTube or follow him on Instagram.

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Podcasts about therapy do not replace actual therapy, and listening to a podcast about therapy does not signify a therapeutic relationship. 

If you or someone you know is in crisis please call or text the nationwide crisis line at 988, or text HELLO to 741741. The Trevor Project has a crisis line for LGBTQ+ young people that can be reached by texting 678678. 

Transcript

Your Therapist Needs Therapy - Jason Aaron (2023-09-20 14:04 GMT-5) - Transcript

Attendees

Jason Aaron, Jeremy Schumacher

Transcript

This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it was created.

Jeremy Schumacher: Hello and welcome to another edition of your I am your host, Jeremy Schumacher, licensed marriage of family. Therapist winning comic book writer Jason, Aaron Jason, Thanks for coming on.

Jason Aaron: All right, thanks for having me and I don't think I'm that,…

Jeremy Schumacher: I had.

Jason Aaron: I'm not that far removed from therapy.

Jeremy Schumacher: I've had sex, educators on everybody's kind of been like therapy adjacent. so,

Jason Aaron: gotcha. I mean, I think writing comics for me is very therapeutic. So as I count

Jeremy Schumacher: And I'm super excited to talk about some of the mental health. I mean, one of my specialties of religious trauma which I think is a huge theme in some of your writing. So yeah, therapy Jason. I know going to the comic shop is a very therapeutic experience for a lot of people.

Jason Aaron: yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean today this is Wednesday when we're talking so I'm gonna have to Get to the comic book store probably as soon as we're done. I haven't been today.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, once upon a time, at the end of the world should have That. comics come out on Wednesday,…

Jason Aaron: I think. Right. Yeah,…

Jeremy Schumacher: for people who aren't in the know, but

Jason Aaron: I think that the new issue that came out last week. I think, I'm not sure…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. I'm a trade paperback person.

Jason Aaron: where it comes out this week. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: I know that's not popular in comic purists…

Jason Aaron: God. So

Jeremy Schumacher: but I have a hard time keeping track of what comes out when. So I just get the collected editions

Jason Aaron: I mean as a long time comic book reader and it's somebody who's made their living from writing comics for years. Now, I don't begrudge anyone for how they choose to choose to indulge the habit or…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: by comics, or trades or freedom digitally as long as you read the stories and enjoy them. that's the most important part.

Jeremy Schumacher: For So let's start I always start with How'd you get into the profession, you have kind of an interesting story with writing comics.

Jeremy Schumacher: You want to contest search?

Jason Aaron: Yeah, I mean writing comics was really what I wanted to do, since I was a kid. I remember saying at a really young age that once I kind of realized do this, people make these things like I said pretty quickly. I wanted to do that and I loved to draw as a kid. I don't know if But I can't remember, maybe I wanted to be Frank Miller and know right and draw my own comics didn't really stick with the drawing part of it but I've loved to write my whole life. So I kind of knew I always wanted to do that and it's just when I got of age, I had absolutely no idea how to go about breaking To comics and I grew up in a small town in Alabama and back in those days, they're really was no way other than live it in New York, which was very much the heart of

Jason Aaron: Comic book publishing. So I felt as about as far from New York City, as you could get, so the continue to pursue writing in different ways, got an English degree and wrote Short stories and film reviews, and that sort of thing, and then marvel comics in the summer of 2000. Did this? Talent search contests, which was a weird thing that sort of came out of the blue. I remember it was sort of controversial at the time, plus some of the Better and writers working for and we're saying why he passed it a net for? People who have never ridden anything. But they kind of did it. It was at San Diego Comic Con and it Wizard World Chicago. So you had to be there in person To apply and I, typed up a one-page synopsis for a Wolverine story and dropped it on a huge stack of them.

Jason Aaron: And it was months later. Before I had a voicemail message on my phone, from an editor at Marvel. Tell me I won and that was 2001.

Jeremy Schumacher: Which is a weird way to get into a career, to win a contest.

Jason Aaron: Yeah, I mean it's weird and…

Jeremy Schumacher: That's Not the recommended course of action.

Jason Aaron: that they've never done anything like that since then, So I feel like breaking into comics Is always difficult. I think it's easier now than it has been, but still it's challenging just to kind of Get your foot in the door and get somebody's attention. So I think there's always a matter of luck involved you get lucky in terms of the situation or Connection with someone who can help you out or whatever. But it's not just like you kind of Have to be prepared. So when that moment arises that you take advantage of it, and I think I'd spent literally, pretty much most all of my conscious life up into that point. thinking about stories making up stories in my head.

00:05:00

Jason Aaron: Reading comics working on my own comics like everything I had done to kind of build and prepare for that moment. When it came along, I was able to take advantage of it and get my foot in the door.

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure what was it I mean you say that you want to do this since you were a little kid. I think it's rare for people to know what they want to do as kids and then translate it into a career. Was this something your family was supportive of or did you get maybe a real job or…

Jason Aaron: Yeah, that was definitely my dad's perspective…

Jeremy Schumacher: a real career would be a good idea.

Jason Aaron: because it was like me saying, I wanted to go to Mars to him. It was to seemed holy unrealistic. But she was being practical. I mean he encouraged me to be a lawyer to go to law school which I would have been a terrible lawyer.

Jason Aaron: But my mom was the one was who bought me those first comics.

Jeremy Schumacher: All right.

Jason Aaron: I took me to the Wherever there was a spinner rack or a comic book store took me to my first comic book convention. So she kind of always encouraged me to do The pursue, whatever, I thought I wanted to do. and think for I just knew something clicked with it. Pretty early on when I was a kid, just the act of writing. I've always been quiet and especially when my younger days is pretty painfully shy. and just the struggle to kind of communicate my thoughts to that to the outside world and writing was really the way I could do that, I couldn't say things with my mouth to people, but I could put anything in words on paper. So it's just something early on just felt

Jason Aaron: Felt right for me it felt like kind…

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Jason Aaron: when you find something that's A fundamental piece of who you are, and that you didn't know that until you stumbled upon it.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. What was it like you went to University of Alabama, Birmingham. So big school for a English degree? Were you vocal about I want to write comics. that's why I'm here, or was that just like,…

Jason Aaron: Yeah, I mean I really again,…

Jeremy Schumacher: we'll see…

Jason Aaron: I didn't know.

Jeremy Schumacher: what happens with writing and…

Jeremy Schumacher: and what that turns into

Jason Aaron: How to…

Jason Aaron: how to even do the comic part of it. it's still reading kind, never quit, reading comics, always reading and loving comics and just I just wanted to write. So I started at the University of Alabama as a journalism major and then, pretty quickly realized, I didn't like that and dropped out. For a few years, and Eventually went back to UAB and Got an English degree, which still, I didn't really know What am I gonna do with this? When I graduated, I wasn't really thinking about that. I enjoyed the class. at UAB, I took lots of fiction writing classes, which were great. And that for the first time I was getting, feedback from I didn't know people who weren't my friends,

Jason Aaron: And took a lot of different literature classes. So it got me to kind of read outside my comfort zone for the first time and just so read things I maybe wouldn't have picked up otherwise so I think, even though once I graduate, I was like, okay, what the hell do I do now? And then, had no idea and when you break it into comics, somebody has ever asking to see your diploma or

Jeremy Schumacher: Let's check.

Jason Aaron: what classes you took in college. But I think the reading and the writing I did and in UAB was hugely helpful I think to my development as a writer

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, you have some literary references throughout your work. Were you a voracious reader growing up? Or was that kind of like that formal education of Hey, here's some classic authors.

Jason Aaron: No, I…

Jeremy Schumacher: Read their works.

Jason Aaron: I definitely love to read growing up and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Or was that part of your upbringing?

Jason Aaron: kind of read a little bit of everything, the not just Robert E Howard Conan books or fantasy or science fiction kind of read a little bit of everything. And then yeah, when I got to college, I read Falconer For the first time, I developed a big appreciation for Mark Twain who had kind of always dismissed up into that point.

00:10:00

Jason Aaron: and yeah, I mean, I think I kind of always had that where I love to read which I think. In my experience, pretty much always goes hand in hand, with somebody who loves to write, I don't know that I love anyone who enjoys writing who doesn't also. love to read.

Jason Aaron: and the only person I knew growing up, Who wrote for a living?

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Jason Aaron: Was my cousin Gus Hasford. Who was a Vietnam vet and a novelist to his book, the short timers is what Kubrick's Full Metal Jacket is based on and guess, of course, was much older than me. It only met him in person. I think three times in my life. But he was. fascinating to me and that he came from where I came from.

Jason Aaron: And I mean, I saw him as this very exotic idealized figure that he traveled the globe And had this massive book collection. He was a bit of a eccentric and that he was, living in flop houses, part of the time. And Hundreds of his books were still from libraries across the country, but As it did, I thought he was the most amazing. Figure ever and he's an incredible writer. And a guy who absolutely like, the epitome of when you say a voracious reader like

Jason Aaron: who could talk at linked on just sort of any number of subjects and just constantly reading. So I think I saw that's what you're supposed to be, if you want to be a writer. And I think I always, Felt that the writing and reading were two things that I just love to do.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I have all these titles you've worked on. I mean A lot of big names over at Marvel. You were there for 15 years. You're just recently announced you'd be writing Batman off world. some creator owned stuff thrown in there that we'll talk about too, but wanting to write comics. Did you expect you would have this list of Thor and Wolverine and Punisher and…

Jason Aaron: No, I can't say that that was ever the goal or…

Jeremy Schumacher: Avengers was that out with the goal or that was like, we'll see what happens when I get there.

Jason Aaron: Imagine that or thought that, and it's never gotten old, I've just the last And the last few months, like you said, I'm starting to do things for DC for the first time. So some of the characters have gotten to write I mean it feels like I'm a kid starting out breaking in for the first time getting to put words in the mouth that these characters that I've Grown up reading that part is never gotten old, But I never expected that never thought that. I mean, I

Jason Aaron: Excuse me. I grew up loving superhero comics. I kind of started reading in the mid 80s when you had this explosion of smaller publishers, so I was reading Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and American Flag and all those early dark horse books like Concrete and Black Cross and so a lot of different Genres outside a superheroes and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Jason Aaron: there's a great time for a kid to get into comics. So I think as a creator of sort of always been the same where I'm attracted to a lot of different. Kinds of characters and genres and such as I think, breaking in when I started breaking in, I kind of quickly figured out. that it didn't make a lot of sense to just chase after specific characters, I love Spider-Man, so I just want to write Spider-Man. So let me Chase after Spider-Man and pitch Spider-Man, like it. I realized it made more sense to focus on the real flesh and blood people involved with this situation and okay, I read a lot of books that this one particular editor edits. So, Chances, are he and I probably have pretty similar sensibilities. So I should try to work with him.

Jason Aaron: And that proves much more beneficial to me.

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Jason Aaron: So, it became less about what character today was I a fan of as a child. But what characters is this Editing. Do I have a story? I can tell what those characters. So, I was always a bigger DC reader as a kid and marvel. So,

00:15:00

Jason Aaron: I liked Wolverine but didn't have I would say, a huge knowledge of Wolverine and then I wrote Wolverine stories for seven years. And Thora.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: I read the Walt Simonson stuff as a kid. but, Thor came along at the right time and felt to me I could kind of see what my version of Thor. I thought looked like and had a story I wanted to tell and then I wrote a hundred issues of Thor so I think I've always kind of looked at it. It's like, what feels right in the moment. what situation feels right more than just I really just want to write Batman. but I'm also just getting to write Batman so that feels good to

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure, when

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. that is cool with some of these characters that you maybe have less had less familiarity with do you Go back and read what's been written before and other artists have done. Or is it something where Marvel says, Hey this is off limits, or this is what we imagine how much of it is You pitching this idea for a story. You want to write versus trying to make sure you're staying within for established characters like that.

Jason Aaron: I mean it depends the things very project to project and varied over the course of my career, I mean With the Wolverine stuff. I mean, there was one of my first Wolverine stories was with editor, Axel Alonzo, and he kind of gave me a Setup. For do Wolverines trapped in this pit. And they keep shooting him with machine guns and how does he get out? And that was kind of challenge of just figure out a story that Gets him out of that pit and sometimes I'd get a call of saying, hey we were doing this secret invasion book. Do you want to write you issues, a Black Panther, where it scrolls invade wakanda and I'm like sure. So you get sort of a setup or…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: an idea and then you figure it out from there. But most of the stuff I've done is just me saying, Hey, I want to do this with the Avengers or whatever. So, I think,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: especially once you're there for a little while, You kind of earn a certain level of trust. and so I mean for the most part of my time at Marvel,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Jason Aaron: I was working with the pretty small group of people getting notes from a small group of people and kind of, getting to do the stories that I wanted to tell.

Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, so writing 100 issues of Thor Seven across, sevenish years one of the bases for the MCU movies, what was kind of Your idea as far as introduced into character like Gore, the God Butcher was that something that you wanted to write Thor's not worthy to pick up the hammer. That's the story I want to tell or was it? Hey I want to talk about gods and belief we're like How does that kind of come together for you as somebody who's talking about some of these themes?

Jason Aaron: I mean, I think it goes back to the silencer, I forgot to answer the other part of your previous question. You ask about going back and reading Old stories for those characters and that's, absolutely what I did with Thor. Like I said, I had not read that many Thor Comics. Had an idea for what I wanted to do, but I never read any of the original, Stan Stanley, Larry Lieber, Jack Kirby issues of Thor. So went back and read all those and that's some of my favorite Kirby stuff. Is a big chunk of that Thor Run? And so, I think, just reading those stories of what makes this character interesting? What are the core parts of his mythology? That have been there since the very beginning. What set him apart? Right out of the get-go. And one of the things Stan Lee said was,

Jason Aaron: that's the reason we did doors. It was the idea of doing Super God, How's this guy different from Iron Captain America and Spider-Man everybody else Willy's powerful but how he's different is that the God and I liked that idea especially in a time when the movies were sort of leaning in another direction where it's like, these characters are Really just kind of, other dimensional aliens that primitive people perceived as gods, They're not really God's. And so I wanted to lean hard. In, the opposite direction and in the original ideas that know that these are gods. And so What does that mean for Thor to be a God in the Marvel Universe and I wanted to explore all the aspects of that, from

00:20:00

Jason Aaron: it means he kind of walks a beat and goes to these different realms that other marvel characters, go to, It means he's been alive for so much longer than other Marvel heroes and has been a continue to be alive long after everybody else is dead. and it means his hammer the kind of the really first fundamental part of the Thor mythology was About his hammer. And this promise that, if you are worthy, you could pick it up and gain the powers of Thor. That What does that mean? To be for a God to be worthy. So I think all those ideas pretty quickly formed as these are going to be the core fundamental parts of everything I do. And they were really for

Jason Aaron: Like you said, seven years and a hundred issues. I always came back to those ideas and I think as the part of exploring what does it mean to be a God in the marvel universe? I knew I wanted to have A villain who kind of represented the dark side of the failings of God's. and the marvel you and someone who said these, gods are terrible. we'd be better off without them. They don't care about us they're fighting with each other all the time. Which Marvel history had pretty much shown us,

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, right.

Jason Aaron: I mean, one of my favorite Kirby, villains is the man Gog who was created. He was born of the rage of a billion billion beings. The Odin had slaughtered Which is such a great idea and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: it's another character I knew you right away. I was going to use So, I mean, I don't think I made up the idea that Marvel gods were terrible and generally terrible. That had been pretty firmly established. And that's what makes Thor special youth stores. Not just special because he's a God because there's lots of gods in the marvel pantheon, lots and lots of them but Thor is even special among them. So what makes him special?

Jason Aaron: and that was, question I used to write those hundred issues really

Jeremy Schumacher: Mm- And so was Gore kind of because Gore was a character that Stood out for me a lot. I think I was raised evangelical and it took me a long time to leave the church to the point now where I work with religious trauma and out and out atheists, and advocate for that, I think it's one of those things where this character who's saying gods, aren't worthy and we shouldn't be worshiping them. We'd be better off without them like I don't know, I would say that. Kind of a provocative take that's something that he is a villain was one of those characters. It's like, you can kind of see where he's coming from. You see his kids and his family die and his question of the gods and nothing's answered. So they're sympathy there. But then his response is so over the top.

Jason Aaron: Yeah, I mean I think To me, some of the best villains or those Where they're coming from to some degree and you can even sympathize with what sets them down that path. And then they just take it to really Horrible links. So Yeah, I mean, I think you can absolutely with sympathize with Gore where he grew up on this world where it was constant suckering and people sort of spent their lives. Worshiping these gods who never never showed up, never came to help them, never seem to do anything for their benefit and Got to the point where There are no gods I don't believe it, There's no evidence that anybody up. There is listening to our prayers. And then he sees that, yeah, there are gods when they fall to earth or to God's have been fighting each other.

Jason Aaron: And then that makes him even angrier. So, yeah, they are up there. They just don't care about us. They're busy fighting amongst themselves. And that from that. Moment, he sort of bonds with this dark weapon and that said, Same down the path where he's like, I'm gonna find them and kill them all. So I wanted a villain that The speak to the different aspects of what made Thor special. So the idea of Gore being a villain that he would fight across thousands and thousands of years, and different areas of his life as a young Data the Vikings. And as a present-day avenger and then in the far future is just Old withered, King Thor. And then I also wanted to do something. That.

00:25:00

Jason Aaron: I wanted a dark Kirby field to the book so I wanted to do dark cosmic mixed with kind of horror elements so I like the idea of Serial killer of gods. Basically is what Gore starts as and then kind of evolved and gets bigger and bigger as he goes. But yeah, absolutely. I mean there's a lot I always caution fans who get mad about something a character says and equate that those words or thoughts to the writer that's a dangerous thing to I used to get X-Men fans Who would be mad at me? Because they said I hated Cyclops. And I'm like, I don't hate Cyclops Wolverine hate Cyclops and I'm writing Wolverine.

Jeremy Schumacher: Right.

Jason Aaron: So I never want characters. I write to just sound like me like they're speaking with my voice or saying things I say I have delighted in the fact that over the course of my career. I have been at times criticized by people for being too Christian in my story, how the times criticize for being too blasphemous or…

Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm

Jason Aaron: satanic or what? But both ends of the spectrum…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: which gives me, an immense amount of joy because I wanted to be about whatever the story is and what are the characters are saying. but all that said, there are definitely moments I think the closest I have come to kind of putting my own words and beliefs into the mouths of a character. Are one of the scenes and Thor. God of Thunder were Gore's son. Is talking to young Thor and sort of, gives him the speech about don't you see how we would all be better off without you if you just didn't exist. And I think that's definitely like me as an peeking through A bit. And in that moment, Which again, I try not to do too much but I couldn't resist there.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and you were raising the South. So in the Bible Belt was church a big party upbringing was that something that you were supposed to in your family? Or was it just kind of like that cultural? I mean, from the Bible Belt that's a big Southern Baptist type part of the country.

Jason Aaron: Yeah, it was a big part. the church grew up Southern Baptist. was that saved when I was a teenager At a church youth retreat and Gatlinburg Tennessee. I believe it is such a integral part of Small town, Southern life of that's what you do. You go to church on Sunday, morning, and Sunday night and Wednesday night. And it was a big part of just life and,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: and social circles and all that stuff. But I also very much believe, I very much

Jason Aaron: that I would say I don't know if I can ever say my faith was a huge really core part of my life. I think I probably would have told you it was but then, when I would meet people, Who absolutely was, and a big part of their life. I could tell. that I don't I have that. I don't think I have…

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Jason Aaron: what that person has, I think Faith, never felt as fundamental to who, I was as writing did, I think that was the part that clicked for me and fate, I definitely

Jason Aaron: clung to and looked at it's didn't question it for a long time. but I think kind of as I got older, once I started college They started to be jinx in the armor, I guess of just things. I started to question things here and there And then I remember having a argument with my father at some point. Where I don't even remember specifically what we were talking about, what point we were arguing about. but something related to the Bible or just Christianity in general and he got kind of flustered with me and he said if you don't believe this I don't know why you believe any of it. And a light bulb went off over my head and I was like, I think you're right. I don't. and I've kind of never looked back, like, I've

Jason Aaron: I started inserting myself an atheist kind of in my early 20s and I'm 15 now. So that's how I've identified for most of my life at this point. And there's been no great hole left in my life since the fate part.

00:30:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Jason Aaron: Went away. I've been able to Pursue a happy and healthy life. And I feel like if anything atheism, just helped me narrow down. Over the years on who I am and what I believe and what is important to me and what feels sacred to me, you can still have things that are sacred even if there's no religious kind of patience involved.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: Yeah. Sorry. that got off track from what the question was but

Jeremy Schumacher: No, that's good. That's so much what I talk about and why I love I like to give clients, I work with, I'd rather recommend, hey, check out this comic book or read this story or watch this show. That deals with the topic. Then give them a textbook on it. And so,…

Jason Aaron: sure.

Jeremy Schumacher: I love when there's pop culture and I love when there are stories that capture some of those things. If we can look at something like Thor and say, What does belief look like or What does that mean to believe in something? Where's worthiness as a topic? I think they can be explored.

Jason Aaron: Right.

Jeremy Schumacher: So, Differently through fiction, or through characters that don't have to be beholden to factual information.

Jason Aaron: I mean I will say given all that I just said about being an atheist for my entire comic book writing career. I think.

Jason Aaron: It's since I kind of lost my faith. If anything, I have become more interested in infasted by the stories of religion, even then I was before, just as stories. And also just an ideas of fate, and I think that is littered throughout my writing career, that. We talked about when I won the Marvel Comics Talent Search contest. So the pitch for the store, the Wolverine story that got my foot in the door and comics was very much. Influenced for Flannery O'Connor is a good man. It's hard to find. So it's Wolverine kind of stumbles out of the woods and Encounters. This lady who's got a flat tire. in the dirt road in the middle of nowhere and while he's helping her try and clearly trying to get her out of there. They have a conversation about faith.

Jason Aaron: And so kind of right away started exploring the idea of Wolverine and the question of fate. And that I was told at the time that I helped my story stand out because I was one of the only ones that didn't have fighting ninjas in a bar. and then as I proceeded to write Wolverine for the next seven years, I honestly came back to that idea, one of my favorite issues, I wrote was sort of The Lats will and testament of Nightcrawler. When Nightcrawler died and one or the other X-Men books and he and Wolverine had been close friends for so long. and Nightcrawler was a man of tea religious faith. And it's sort of like, what the thing he asked of Wolverine after he dies. And what Wolverine does to try to make that happen.

Jason Aaron: and then, At one point, like I did a big wolverine goes to hell storyline. So I'd kind of always came back to that. despite being a pretty staunch atheist and I've continued to write stories about faith and stories about the Bible and all the things I kind of grew up with

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah I mean the gore was right. Reveal is part of the original said and storyline, that's Pretty biblical language in there.

Jason Aaron: Right. Yeah. Spoilers

Jeremy Schumacher: do you have a rule as a comic book writer for when the spoilers come out? That's seven years ago.

Jason Aaron: I mean it was a secret original Sin was an event miniseries, I wrote And there's a moment. I always liked the idea of a character who could, devastate someone with just a word of whisper, I think I is that scene in Silence of the Lambs, where they mentioned that? Hannibal Lecter and made the guy in the cell next door to him kill himself just by whispering to him in the night which I thought was one of the most terrifying parts of that just that kind of power. So I was always fascinated by that. So, in the original sin, Nick fury is in power and he whisper something to Thor and Thor drops his hammer and can't pick it up. Again, It was a question for years as to what was said and that I'd learned.

00:35:00

Jason Aaron: I did a whisper in a previous issue, a punisher and in that, we lettered the actual words and then just shrunk them down really small. And I realized, There's no amount.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: You can shrink it down where someone can't blow it up and read it. So, with the Original Sin book,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: I made sure to it's just put gibberish in there. I don't want people to cheat and know what was actually said. So for years, it was a question and I didn't tell anybody, I think I maybe told Will Moss my editor. Pretty early on, and my original thought was kind of longer. It was a few sentences because I still got my Thor notebook here, and it was all written down. It's like,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Jason Aaron: I knew what it was. I knew that gist of it. but we didn't reveal that for years and then by the time we got there, I just kind of boiled it down to those three words. So people thought it would be some shocking realization and it's a very simple phrase…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: but it's what it means For Thor because it's telling him his worst fear that thing that he's afraid is true.

Jeremy Schumacher: Right.

Jason Aaron: So yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I laughed about the punisher thing because I hadn't read those punisher max issues. And then once you and I had emailed a little bit and corresponded to set this up, I found him at a comic shop and pick them up and a hundred percent. I just zoomed in on my phone until I could read what was written there. So I was funny that you said I learned my lesson there like yep.

Jason Aaron: Yeah notes.

Jeremy Schumacher: I think.

Jason Aaron: I'm super proud of those punisher issues too. The punisher Max Buck. I got to do with the late late Steve Dillon I'm really really proud of it. It's very dark and very demented but there was a lot of fun.

Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, I think kind of this idea of belief and making what gives lives meaning was really present in sculpt too, Dash is kind of fighting everybody else's idea of fate or what he's supposed to be doing throughout that series. And of, it's the FBI, but Some of it is other people saying, you could lead the tribe. And so, there are all these things that are kind of pressing on him that he's like, I don't want that. that's not what is important to me.

Jason Aaron: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I loved writing the characters of scalp so much and I looked at, I think the book kind of changed and grew as it went along. And it definitely started out as though lead Dash's story with Red Crow as the villain and I was still the basic structure of it, but as it went along, Red Crow would get Much more sympathetic, I think than dash some of the times. And Dash would go down some really dark roads. So I was just trying to lean into the film noir of it all and sort of James Elroy of it to where these are Two really deeply flawed men, flawed in different ways and Even at times when they realize their flaws and they know what they are, they still can't help but get caught up in them and get derailed by them and go down. roads of regret.

Jason Aaron: And the scalp was really 60 issues of those two guys. button heads and Jason after each other in different ways.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. What was I mean being from Small Town, Alabama. What was it like to write life on a fictional version of one but what was that research? Was that just I want a Western story. I want some new art thrown in or was that let me be careful and let me really dig into what the experience is. Because there's so many things that I think are accurate in that depiction with drugs and alcohol and some of the intergenerational poverty and trauma that goes into those living spaces. So what was that like for you to kind of build a fictional world of a very real place?

Jason Aaron: I mean I think it was everything you just said I mean that it seemed like the perfect setting for the kind of book I wanted to do and also It represented a story we had never seen before, with nobody had ever done a Native American noir modern day the war like that, that I'd ever seen. so, it seemed a very Ripe to do those kind of stories. And yes I absolutely wanted to be respectful of it's a fictional reservation but it's clearly. then Lee build version of

00:40:00

Jason Aaron: Of a couple of real places. So he tried to, did as much research as I could talk to people, especially as the book started going as the book got a lot of native fans. I had people writing to me who became good resources. And to me, regardless of whatever, kind of story, you're writing, whatever the challenge is like that. It's got to kind of start and end with the characters. Who are these characters? How do you know, are they do? They feel like real people are they just stereotypes or they thinly veiled? If they are a kind of falls apart, no matter what the setting of the story is, And I pretty quickly on scalp, I mean I wanted to lean into the characters. I knew if

Jason Aaron: I was a brand new writer Guerra, who was drawing, it was a brand new artist. A Native American crime, drama was not really something that you thought would tear up the sales chart. So the deck was kind of stacked against the book from the get- of is this even going to work? Are we going to get 12 issues? So I knew right away Look if people are going to like this book it's not be gonna be because we dazzle them with plots. the plots of this. Series are basically stories we've seen before, and with the same sort of film Nora stuff or at times, what's coming? you see that? You see the light of the train in that tunnel.

Jason Aaron: So it's not going to be shocks and twists and high concept stuff it's about. Do you like these characters? Are you interested in these characters? So let's second arc, we did at the book, really each issue focused on a different character to which seem like a strange choice at the time when we had just started and it's like you don't even know who these people are yet. But I knew if we don't hook people on the characters right away. Where we're not gonna be around long and we did, That was the thing that people really responded to And we got to do 60, bless issues of that book. Which I don't think anybody would have bet money on when we started, and even as it went along, that we were kind of one of the last vertigo books to really have a long run like that, and that was a long history of books like that before us. But

Jason Aaron: the days of vertigo we were Closer to the end when scalp started, then we were beginning. So we kind of stuck in and then in those last days and I was very much the book that they really gave me a comic book career even though I had broken in with that Marvel Talent search contest scalped, was kind of the first thing that sorry to bring me some attention and acclaim and got me more work.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and I think I read this somewhere. If I remember correctly, you signed with Marvel then while you were still working on scalps,

Jason Aaron: Yeah. Yeah, I signed with Marvel. So I think scalp started in 2006. So yeah, I worked on scalped for a few more years once I was exclusive to marvel.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. One of the other, character studies, but also more your lived experience Southern bastards.

Jason Aaron: All right.

Jeremy Schumacher: Very much that set in the South. But again, kind of Those characters who I think grab you in right away. Lots of intergenerational trauma,…

Jason Aaron: Right.

Jeremy Schumacher: not to project, all these therapy themes on it, but for me, when I'm reading stuff like that, it's that. What an interesting story looking at some of the things that are passed down from family to family and some of the things that draw you back even if it's not a pleasant experience.

Jason Aaron: Yeah, I mean, I think you could poke around and see intergenerational trauma in so many things. I've written, I think that's a part of Thor.

Jeremy Schumacher: And yeah, I think with the three,…

Jason Aaron: It's a big part of Star Wars, it's there everything.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, that the three versions of Thor Two, it's really fascinated to look at when you have those kind of past present future versions.

Jason Aaron: Right.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, you can see…

Jason Aaron: Right, he's intergenerational just in and…

Jeremy Schumacher: what it's passed out, but, yes. Himself.

Jason Aaron: of himself, right?

Jason Aaron: yeah, what and I think that's a kind of the two big Southern stories. I've done Southern bastards and men of wrath, which was a mini Series I did with Ron Garney, which is very much about a generational Cycle of violence passed down from father to son within the same family and that was influenced by my real life family. History to where My. Great grandfather.

00:45:00

Jason Aaron: The stabbed a guy to death and argument over some sheep. And then his son was also there and was jailed for a time and then he later died of rabies after a dog bite. So, Those two, pieces of family history, kind of influence the story of the rat family and men of wrath. And yet Southern bastards And it's Also really about this kind of tug of war between the Old South and the New South. which I think something everybody. Who, grows up in the South there's the

Jason Aaron: The parts that you love and appreciate about being from there. And then there's the parts not so much that make you cringe. Whether the parts from the days, pass, the ones that are, Lingering still. So, there's always that kind of love-hate relationship And with Southern bastards, you kind of see that play out. Again, with this sort of family cycle of the guy who comes back to the small town where he was born, Where he lived under the shadow of his father, who was like a Buford pusser kind of figure, a walking tall kind of stick toting, Sheriff. Who kept the peace back in the day and

Jason Aaron: and then this is done, Earl Tub, kind of gets in embroiled and what's going on in the small town? These days where the local high school football coach, who's Because, basically the high school version of Nick Saban the guy who's walks on water. Who's God to the people in this town because he's been so good for so long. Turns out. He's also the local crime boss.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: And, we see these two forces buttheads and we kind of plays out from there. There are some surprises along the way in Southern bastards. If you haven't read it,

Jeremy Schumacher: He's literally coach boss, right? That's a

Jason Aaron: Right.

Jeremy Schumacher: part of the work that I've done in my career, I worked at

Jeremy Schumacher: Worked in higher, ed coaching sports. And mental health for student athletes. of all the comics, I've read of HP Lovecraft and horror and all these other things. One of the panels that sticks with me, the most is in coach boss when he's still a player, the hazing that he goes through. From some of the older players and how they were trying to get him to quit the team and that just sticks with me, growing up around sports, being an athlete. And then being a coach like That's, I don't know, horrific in a different way than Galactus come in and…

Jason Aaron: Sure.

Jeremy Schumacher: tearing apart something like that. That huge horror is horror if it in one way, but then kind of this, here's a small trauma that no one else knows about except for the person who's carrying it and…

Jason Aaron: And that story is true.

Jeremy Schumacher: yet it's kind of a formative thing in their life.

Jason Aaron: That's the story. Someone told me at some point that happened to them in terms of coach bosses hazing.

Jason Aaron: Yeah, I mean Southern bastards it's like I said my love hate letter to the south and there's so much of it that's big and Sort of blown up and heightened and meant to be kind of pulpy. but there's a lot of it that's really, I think me writing some of my most personal stuff about Stories about where I grew up the place that kind of made me who I am to a huge degree in all sorts of good and bad ways.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah and the churches is there in Southern bastards obviously as well too. Boone is on a mission from God and one of the things that I loved with some of the realism there is working with people who come out of cults, they're worth One of those churches, that brings in snakes and you see people with man hands that are mangled,…

Jason Aaron: Right.

Jeremy Schumacher: in some of those things and they're still going to church. So it's just those little things of like, yeah, that is. Aaron's.

Jason Aaron: Yeah, I think, I live in Kansas City these days, I moved to Kansas City 20 years ago, so I think it's not like I moved to a bastion of liberal thinking, but compared to where I grew up it pretty much is so people, the number of times, I've heard over the years since I lived here, when I talk about being from Alabama and growing up in the church, Everyone assumes that we handled snakes I guess they think everyone at every church. In the,…

00:50:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Jason Aaron: in the Deep South, we all handle snakes and drink poison. Never handle any snakes. We didn't have deuce, they can like, in my church.

Jeremy Schumacher: Mmm.

Jason Aaron: But when I was going to UAB, one of my teachers was Dennis, Covington, who had written a book called Salvation on Sand Mountain, which was about exploring, they handling church and he,

Jason Aaron: Went to a lot of services hung out with all those people and then actually did it himself. At some point, the books just about his journey through that. So as always liked that idea and Boon is in the book Boone's. Kind of like the redneck version of the punisher, he's…

Jeremy Schumacher: And yeah.

Jason Aaron: which I think you always know guys like that this sort of backwoods guy who's Maybe buried some bodies over the years, but he's not the guys going to go around and brag about it. And if he did, he's never gonna tell he's gonna die without having told anybody. And if he did bury, somebody say they were people who had a comment, they didn't. There in his eyes,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: they had earned their way. So he's the guys kind of Keeping the peace. Go to speak. And yeah, I think, but only scratch the surface of kind of exploring the ideas of faith and church and Small Southern towns. That's what I've done so far. And in Southern bastards and definitely need to see more of them.

Jeremy Schumacher: and also the faith that in the football coach.

Jason Aaron: And it's a question as to which one is bigger, at any given moment

Jeremy Schumacher: Depends on if it's Saturday or Sunday, right?

Jason Aaron: I mean, they are definitely at both of vital importance.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and your big Alabama fan still to this day? Correct, Alabama football.

Jason Aaron: I am. Yeah yeah, I grew up a Crimson Tide fan my whole life. I did go to school there for a bit but like I said, Didn't love it and dropped out. We did win and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure, I'm a

Jason Aaron: we won the national championship in 92 when I was there. So that was great.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah I'm a big believer, grad school postgrad like you get to your alma mater when it suits you so Marquette basketball does good.

Jason Aaron: Right.

Jeremy Schumacher: I'm like Marquette I went there even though I hated it and didn't like it and it was just for grad school but hey if they do good I'm gonna claim that so,…

Jason Aaron: Exactly. I paid enough money. I get to,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yes, exactly.

Jason Aaron: I get to claim it.

Jeremy Schumacher: To moving to a bit of a different trauma. Not that all year. I don't know. I have a hard time talking about comic books without tying it to trauma, because I don't know, there's very few comics or superheroes who don't have a traumatic backstory, but once upon a time,

Jason Aaron: That's good drama good story.

Jeremy Schumacher: that's, Yeah.

Jason Aaron: Good story, grist.

Jeremy Schumacher: That's the storytelling. Yeah, once upon a time at the end of the world is This love story that occurs at The Apocalypse.

Jason Aaron: Right? It's my new book For some of worked with. Boom, it's coming out right now. We're in the nearing, the end of the second arc. so, I think issued, Nine just came out. It'll be 15 issues. By the time, it's done three arcs. And yeah, the first arc, we meet these two kids or two kids, meet each other and the post-apocalyptic wasteland, and it's very much, A Love Story story of romance of opposites meat and go on an adventure together and kind of fall for each other. Along the way. thought of It's like if Wes Anderson directed Road Warrior, that's kind of the vibe. I was going for with that first start.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: but even within the midst of that story of them, kind of falling for each other, you get flashes forward in time and you get the idea that this is not going to stay Cute forever. So that the second arc completely shifts gears from the first arc and it turns into the story of these characters. As adults, they're not kids anymore. They're grown up, they're married. They're exploring, their emotional and sexual relationship with each other. And then, that starts to involve other people that they meet along the way, and that turns into them trying to build this community, out of the ruins of the Old world. A place that's kind of built on ideas of three love and polyamory and self-expression. And where Anyone is free to kind of walk any path, they choose.

00:55:00

Jason Aaron: and that's really great and beautiful for a while but then things start to go wrong and start to form in the ground, figuratively And it kind of turns into a horror story at the heart of it. You have the same two characters, Macio, and messi the characters we met as kids. And their relationship is starting to show cracks and to me, that

Jason Aaron: I mean, this whole thing is a love story and a story of really divorce and how do you move on from ruin?

Jason Aaron: So you kind of know from the beginning okay it's not all going to be happily ever after for these characters,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah and…

Jason Aaron: right?

Jeremy Schumacher: I think Nick Dragoda is writing that forward that future version of them were there clearly not okay anymore.

Jason Aaron: Yeah, next draw in the third. Yeah, we had Alexander Tafinki, did the first arc who he did the good Asian from a couple years ago which was really amazing. And then Layla del Duca's drawing the current arc, it's called The Rise and Fall of Galga News and the Nick draws the future stuff. But the current one that's coming out now is the whole book has been difficult and challenging for me to write in particularly, this arc was challenging and that I was trying to capture. Just that feeling of when you're in a relationship and it starts to break down and fall apart, it can feel like you're in the middle of a horror story, right? Where you

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: just everything hurts and ways it didn't before everything. it feels like your own strange footing. They look the ground is shifted beneath your feet. This person that you thought you knew better than anyone. You start to not recognize in ways and you get to where It's like you're not speaking the same language anymore. so, I wanted to see that in literal terms. take that make it a horror story.

Jason Aaron: and within an arc that also, explores Ideas of polyamory in. what I hope come across as positive nuanced terms outside of the horror story aspect. So I think balancing all those things felt like, A really intimidating challenge and a never done anything like this. Never read anything like this.

Jason Aaron: Both Layla was a huge help on this arc and everything that she brought to the story. So I've really proud of how it's come together and I think Layla does some of her best work on these last couple issues. And then, we'll jump right into the third or we skip forward in time in these characters are both old and they've kind of go on their step aways, and then they're brought back together. you…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: to try to save the planet

Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, I have the first trade and I'm very excited to see where it goes from a little bit behind but as a marriage therapist needs,

Jeremy Schumacher: It's better now than when I started my career 15 years ago but where people aren't waiting so long to go to therapy, but when I started I was taught couples come to therapy six or seven years after they need to. And so That there's this calcification.

Jason Aaron: Sure right.

Jeremy Schumacher: I think that happens of behaviors, where that ships passing the night becomes this huge disconnect and…

Jason Aaron: That's a great way to put it. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: I see, I was reading this and being man, that's such a. Yep, that's how it goes. Yep, that's how it goes.

Jason Aaron: yeah, when I say the book doesn't have a happy ending, you'll have to wait to see what the ending actually is. It's could say, clearly doesn't go. without some bumps along. Okay, right.

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Jason Aaron: And it's a story of, I mean, I think now, at this point in my life, I'm looking around at my, friends. Or a divorce. I'm divorced to a lot of people I know are divorced especially after these last few years. and, …

01:00:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: I got divorced in the midst of covid, which is kind of Where this came from the idea of kind of going through that, in the midst of a would seems, like the world is literally ending. And then they becomes, that just because you're divorce that relationship. Still carries on and especially if you have kids and it's like what does that look like? And you look at The different versions of that among the people, I know and there's, really stark differences. But that's an ongoing question and ongoing challenge. Or a lot of people how do you work that out or the best of everybody involved, Especially your kids. So I think that's really what that third art of the book is about in my mind. Is that so? Doesn't mean,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: it can't have what you would say. Happy ending. It's just,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Jason Aaron: it's not the happy ending of people writing off into the sunset together.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and I'm excited to see where it goes.

Jeremy Schumacher: I like mental health and I like comic books, so it's right there for me, but it's also depictions of things like polyamory, deconstructing, some of those ideas of monogamy and it's role in relationships, I think having that stuff again in pop culture or shown those are things that I see in my office all the time. Those are things that I work with dealing, with something like, suicide is a normal Tuesday for me, but they're still very taboo topics in the culture at large. So it's so fun. It's so exciting to see some of these things put out there by artists and creators who are taking different looks at it.

Jason Aaron: Good and the suicide issue is coming, so you'll go. so I…

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Jason Aaron: everything you just said is why this book has been such a challenge to write. if I could sit down and write a hundred issues of store, go read a few Thor Comics. And Do my research in the North Mythology and I'm good, And it's easy to figure…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: When you're writing all this and trying to balance all this stuff And do it in a story that changes dramatically. it's not just the art teams that change over the course of these art, but the story goes in different directions. And it's kind of multiple genres wrapped up into one as other relationship is right. the relationship in real life is never just The romantic comedy,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Right.

Jason Aaron: that's part of it, but that's one act, of the overall,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, that's the opening acts.

Jason Aaron: regardless of Where you stay together, you get divorce, you're together for 50 years. You're definitely going to have different genres over the course of that story, right? You're gonna have the comedy,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: the sexual drama, the horror story, you're gonna get all that in the midst of it. So I wanted to do a story that spoke to that This is a love story, played out over the course of years and years against the backdrop of the end of time so it's maybe the Earth's last great love story, right?

Jason Aaron: So that's the challenge to sort of the juggle all that stuff and again to do it in a way that feels respectful and nuanced and

Jason Aaron: Doesn't feel like I'm representing polyamory in a negative light but also don't want it to seem like I'm writing a treat it's on non-monogamy or…

Jeremy Schumacher: Here, right.

Jason Aaron: a recommendation that everyone reads. This book should try non-monogamy it's a balancing act and hopefully I feel good about what we've done on that and hopefully, the ultimately it's up for readers to read it and to parse it out for themselves.

Jeremy Schumacher: Preachy about. Hey, you shouldn't believe in God's it is For the reader to still kind of approach it and bring their meaning making to it and then make meaning after they've read it. So, there are some things that I liked and once upon a time at the end of the world that I wrote down that, the wasteland Rangers are a very

01:05:00

Jeremy Schumacher: I don't know if you meant it as a satire of certain groups, but they're a scout troop, that's kind of authoritarian. I would say they view progress and diversity is as the end of the world like that's what caused the Apocalypse from their perspective.

Jason Aaron: Right.

Jeremy Schumacher: So, I don't know if that's

Jeremy Schumacher: I don't want to ascribe an intention but as somebody works with religious trauma, I'm seeing Boy Scouts of America, I'm seeing the Catholic Church. I'm seeing some of these authoritarian groups This is the only way, type fundamentalist thinking.

Jason Aaron: Yeah, I don't think you have to look too hard to find, language like what I describe to them in the book, and at first, I knew, I wanted to do the wasteland Rangers. I like the idea of these road warrior Boy Scouts, and had fun exploring like water their badges. What badges do they have turn and all that sort of stuff. But I didn't know what is their Angle and what is their philosophy, and what drives them? And then I kind of part of it. I knew they'd sort of be the descendants of Preppers. but, Right.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, the first prepper right?

Jason Aaron: But beyond that it took me a while to kind of hit up on that and then those ideas sort of in the same way as the words and thoughts of Gore Echo, echoed throughout 100 issues of my Thor, Run, even long after he Stopped being a part of the The thoughts and philosophies of the wasteland Rangers will continue to echo back into the book as we go forward. and specifically that idea of,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: you know, What you're saying is what was it that destroyed the world?

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. I'm excited to keep reading it. As it comes out, like I said, I'm a trade paperback person. So I got to wait for the collected edition to come out and…

Jason Aaron: I think yeah that's second trade should be I mean,…

Jeremy Schumacher: lose track.

Jason Aaron: the last issue the second art comes out next month so I think the second trade will be out pretty quickly after that.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah I think it's don't quote me and I think it's November but

Jason Aaron: so I'm going to quote you

Jeremy Schumacher: About. 15 years, a little bit.

Jason Aaron: Yep.

Jeremy Schumacher: I follow you on Instagram, and I see some posts about pro wrestling. Every once in a while. So, tell me,…

Jason Aaron: What, …

Jeremy Schumacher: tell me about your fandom of pro wrestling.

Jason Aaron: I watched wrestling as a kid back in the heyday of when I was still the WWF like the rock and wrestling, Hulk, Hogan and Superfly Snucka and Roddy Piper. I washed her in those days in the local. Wrestling. So I'd get the road warriors and Ric Flair and then I stopped. So I didn't watch wrestling for basically the entire career of the undertaker,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: which was it which he had a long career, But he sort of started right after I stopped.

Jeremy Schumacher: okay, which is Yeah,…

Jason Aaron: And then You…

Jeremy Schumacher: 30 years. Yep.

Jason Aaron: the rock stone cold, Steve Austin didn't watch any of that stuff, the attitude era. I remember my boss at the barbecue restaurant. I worked in Alabama, would quote? I realized now, he was quoting the rock to me all the time and I had no idea what the hell he was talking about. I thought he was being in a jerk. I missed all that stuff but then my kid,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: my son started I think he watched it undertaker match on YouTube and liked it and I told him Mike. there's wrestling still comes on right I think I could watch new ones so we started watching together as a thing. we could watch and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: enjoy and I've heave remained them. One of the van I've gotten, if anything become a much bigger fan, if it's going on and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Jason Aaron: we started watching WWE and that Turned into me watching, New Japan and Lucha underground when that was around and then Aw. and so I've gotten into It's all that's. So now I'd love it.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yes.

Jason Aaron: The only problem is that there's too much of a wrestling to watch week to week, And that there's many shows.

Jeremy Schumacher: There is a lot on a joked. My wife's been making sure I don't fanboy too much in getting to talk to you, but I was like I'm gonna sneak a lucha underground reference and see if he catches it…

Jason Aaron: Yeah. I'd love to Lucha underground.

Jeremy Schumacher: because then I lose my mind. Yeah, that was same

01:10:00

Jason Aaron: It was so I love to not just the combination of Just how ridiculous it was at times with the vignettes and the storyline they would leave,…

Jeremy Schumacher: yep.

Jason Aaron: there would be superpowers and they were murders and they were all kind of things happening.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. There was this ancient.

Jason Aaron: I'd love to and then they're Right.

Jeremy Schumacher: Aztec tribes there was magical items. Yeah.

Jason Aaron: Yes, and then the wrestling itself would be so good they had so many great wrestlers go through that show. I mean many people that I'm still love and now

Jason Aaron: So yeah, I have huge bondness for Lucha underground.

Jeremy Schumacher: and wrestling. I defend it when it's done well, which it is not always, but when it's done, it's just storytelling. it's Not a wrestling show. it's a drama around a wrestling company.

Jason Aaron: Right what it's done. I mean I don't know anything that kind of hits all the same buttons that it can hit, Because it's like a soap opera that you watch every week. It's also just let it competition in the midst of that. it's planned and scripted. So when they build the drama and have a payoff it can be Really profound because You're watching it happen live. And then …

Jeremy Schumacher: Right.

Jason Aaron: when they do a pay-view on Sunday they can have a show on Monday and follow up to that and also incorporate people's reactions to that. So it's also storytelling where they can. Change and adjust on the fly, right. It's such a weird thing…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: where I don't know anything else that kind of can hit all those buttons. But also sometimes I just like to watch these You…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: the people in the amazing stuff that they can do amazing or…

Jeremy Schumacher: Right.

Jason Aaron: horrible stuff, they do to each other in the ring.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and I come from a big sports family. So, I've been to games, I've been to Milwaukee Bucks games. I've I've seen Aaron Rodgers and his prime play where the whole 70,000.

Jason Aaron: Cool.

Jeremy Schumacher: People are chanting MVP like wrestling just lean so far into Here's the fan, interaction here, the things to yell. Here's theme music that you could get exc Do when it plays like it's such an experience.

Jason Aaron: Yeah. Absolutely. Some mean, I would say with wrestling sometimes to the detriment of the products when the fans can be a little too involved,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: they're a little too, can just sort of take over, but I love it. I've been to a lot of W. Bee shows, I took my kid. We saw Undertaker and Brock Lesnar when they had a big one of those brawls where everybody empties out of the back and you got 40 people in the ring trying to pull them apart. We were there the night. Becky Lynch and the Women from Smackdown. invaded and she both got her nose busted open and there was blood pouring down her face so we've began to see some cool shows and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yep.

Jason Aaron: I've been to Caew last time they were in town, I missed it, but before that, I got to see. That Kenny Omega pack Iron Man match, which was amazing. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Any Omega is both, my boys have a five and a two year old and they both love love. Kenny Omega…

Jason Aaron: Yeah,…

Jeremy Schumacher: because they know…

Jason Aaron: it's so good.

Jeremy Schumacher: how much I like him. Yeah.

Jason Aaron: He though amazing? Yeah, I mean I think it was the young bucks and Kenny, they got me watching, New Japan. When I first started, I think the first time I saw the young bucks. I was like, who are these guys? And, from that subscribed to the new Japan streaming. Network.

Jason Aaron: The huge. AW nerd these days.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, me too. I was in Milwaukee when Kota abuushi or…

Jason Aaron: cool.

Jeremy Schumacher: not, Kota Abuushi Kazuchika Okada came out before the first forbidden door and I was like That was a bucket list.

Jason Aaron: Right.

Jeremy Schumacher: I didn't know I had because he wrestles in Japan all the time.

Jason Aaron: Sure.

Jeremy Schumacher: So I didn't and everyone had that on my radar of, I'll get to see Okada live So I'm the same way with I'll talk about, Lucha underground I'll talk about New Japan and everyone's like I meant John Cena was like, sorry, I'm aware of that,…

Jason Aaron: Right. Yeah,…

Jeremy Schumacher: but that's not…

Jason Aaron: I mean there's a huge,…

Jeremy Schumacher: what I'm talking about.

Jason Aaron: wrestling comic book crossover. I feel certainly more than there is comic book crossover with Sports in general, I feel it's not that bad I know most everybody within comics who watches football like we all kind of find each other.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

01:15:00

Jason Aaron: But there's a big crossover with wrestling and a lot of the wrestlers, big comic nerds and mean I mean how many times have we seen wrestlers come out to the ring the last few years?

Jeremy Schumacher: Collectors too. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Aaron: Basically looking like comic book characters, I think Jason Fargo was she's dressed like Comic characters a few times. Johnny Gargano. Rey Mysterio. He was straight up Wolverine. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Rey Mysterio's. Done it for years. Yeah, yeah, so a lot of overlap there and Again, I think a lot of it just goes back to different ways to tell good stories.

Jason Aaron: Which to me is I love,…

Jeremy Schumacher: That's…

Jason Aaron: I mean,…

Jeremy Schumacher: what it is.

Jason Aaron: if that's a football game I love figuring out What is the story of this game, it's not just 22, dudes. Running into each other for three hours, it is that but also there's a story that's developing of who's going to be the hero who's gonna be the goat by the end of this,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: what are the few pivotal beats that are going to really decide? And if one of them ball bounces a different way, in this one moment, you've got to completely different story that comes out of it like that, I love that.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah. I could nerd out talking about either of those for a long time. Shifting just a touchback. How do you kind of handle as a creator? And as somebody we've had stories, I've gone into the MCU I would say you want an eisner so that's a pretty exclusive club. How do you handle push back from fans, or online trolls or people? Who are like, How do you do this work? That's maybe taxing on, you mentally and…

Jason Aaron: I mean I think generally I've never let it bother me,…

Jeremy Schumacher: from a creative perspective and then have that maybe negativity coming back your way.

Jason Aaron: I mean, probably did more in the early days when I think any comic book creator when you first start, You're intrigued by any feedback you get, right? Or just any time people notice here and reading your stories and so then the first time you start getting negative feedback, I think everybody has the impulse to, I should go into that message board and talk to these people and answer their questions which I've quickly figured out I think that's not a healthy pursuit. That's not. you…

Jeremy Schumacher: Okay.

Jason Aaron: doesn't generate fruitful conversations so I kind of for the most part just having cared definitely notice things like when I was too in certainly took note of a lot of the Negative response to that and incorporated. Some of it into the book itself, which I delighted in doing. But I…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: I don't think you can never write things based on what people are saying social media or what you see online, you have to be true to whatever story you're telling and I'm certainly never changed. Or shaped the story based on what other people are saying you have to do,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: what feels right to you. And my job is pretty simple and that I write stories for myself and then I get approval from, if I'm working with Marvel or DC it's still a small number of people who have to sign off on what I'm doing and is the artist who's drawing it or they having a good time or they happy with it. Because at the end of the day, That's all I control, right? I'm beyond that? Yeah, you want retailers to like it and be happy and excited about it and wish it to fans and you want fans to buy it and enjoy it. Because that all means you get to have a career and continue doing it, but I don't know how to control those parts of it, I don't know how to write a book that retailers. or the fans want. I just know how to do. What I want and then it kind of goes from there but I can't control those other parts of it. I just have to do the things that speak to me.

Jason Aaron: but, Now I will say in terms of …

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. your controllables is one of my many therapy mantras that I give to people often.

Jason Aaron: People saying mean things on the Internet, I mean, it's definitely been different the last three years. I mean, I think some of it Is the tide of social media Feels like, the fandom kind of getting darker and angrier. In some respect. But also I think as we were in terms of comics as everybody is the common convention circuit shut down and Nobody was leaving their house. there's always a big difference between just if you take what you see Online as reality and you're cut off from reality itself.

01:20:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: Then you kind of, have no choice but to feel like, I guess this is the general opinion. so you forget it was so like once I've started going to conventions again and do an appearances again I kind of didn't realize how much I had missed it? I always enjoyed going to shows and Seeing people and getting to travel but I don't think I'd realize kind of the important part. It played where it is nice to just Meet people who are actually reading and enjoying what you're doing and face to face and chat with them. and you're like, yeah, I forget that, Those are not the people who necessary the loudest on Twitter. So you have to get out into the real world and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Right.

Jason Aaron: and be reminded yeah this stuff is actually finding people and connecting with them.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah for What do you do for kind of I don't know. I'm making an assumption here, The word that came to mind was detoxing but when you're writing some of the heavier stuff, for some of the darker stuff, is there a process that you have to kind of Reset or for you. Is it that's just what you do telling a story and it doesn't really affect you?

Jason Aaron: I mean, I don't think it affects me. I mean, like I said that once upon a time book was hard, just because it felt, much more personal in so many ways, but I think in general, Writing something that's really dark. It's not the process and stuff. I go through is no different than I'm from writing something. That's Philly. I mean, it all kind of Makes me smile and makes me happy. I mean I'm the guy you…

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Jason Aaron: who laughs at inappropriate moments in movies just because As this makes me happy. this is this a moment that scares me or…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: disturbs me. But if I have that feeling I just quickly turns into joy because I'm excited that man like you you just read to me out right with…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: what you did like Bravo. So that makes me laugh. so I think I'm like that in writing too, even, I can go to dark places and when I feel like I Get what I wanted to get the right moment, It makes me happy, but I think in,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: in general, the thing I do to like detox or just kind of turn Work off because it's hard. You're pretty much always working in some capacity and that I always think of it as a kitchen and just the Stuff is always simmering away…

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Jason Aaron: on the stovetop right and sometimes you move one's to the front and sometimes you put ones in the back and those need to cook a little bit longer. But stuff's always simmering away, and things are always churning And sometimes some of my stuff I'd like the most will pop up Out of the blue one, I've still been thinking about it for, three weeks and then just in a moment where I'm Taking a shower or driving somewhere and not thinking about it. Suddenly pieces fit together. So I think that's always happened…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: but happening but when I have moments where I'm taking a walk or something and I just want to not think about work. I listen to Disney theme park, Podcasts are my go-to, So pretty much all the decent,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Okay. Sure.

Jason Aaron: Disney theme park podcast. I subscribe to and just Switch from one to the other.

Jeremy Schumacher: And that's just new things opening. I don't know what a Disney theme park podcast, entails.

Jason Aaron: Just the ins and outs I love going to Disney Theme Park. So it's just the ins and outs Of what to do,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Jason Aaron: what not to do restaurant hotel reviews stories about the history of the park, all that kind of stuff.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: I'm there for all of it. And sometimes I'll throw …

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, that's awesome.

Jason Aaron: a couple of them have YouTube channels too that I to Throw a video on, while I'm cooking. or something. But then sometimes it's like, No, I'm not able to pay enough attention to this and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Aaron: I really want to know what They're 35 things. Are that you should definitely do it disease, animal kingdom. So I'm going to save this for when I'm not focused on cooking dinner.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, that's fantastic. One more not totally out of the blue but you and I both have Aggressive facial hair. what's the beard routine?

Jason Aaron: That's the correct.

Jeremy Schumacher: How'd you get there?

01:25:00

Jason Aaron: Is that how you define it?

Jeremy Schumacher: I was gonna save voluptuous but I felt bad about it.

Jason Aaron: Yeah yours is lovely. And you have all the hair to go with it too. I wish I could pull that part off but I've been bald I think for as long as I've been atheist now,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Jason Aaron: I shaved my head.

Jeremy Schumacher: I tell people.

Jason Aaron: Shave my head in 1994.

Jeremy Schumacher: I tell I grow it out for the people who can't and that's true because I grow it out for three years and then I'll donate it for kids cancer.

Jason Aaron: That's cool. that's good.

Jeremy Schumacher: So yeah.

Jason Aaron: It was so wait. What was the question? Just

Jeremy Schumacher: what's the beard routine? I'm guessing you can ask this question. People always ask me how I got my beard to be this long.

Jason Aaron: Is there a secret to that to me? I've always just said, you just don't Care. You just don't cut it,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, when in doubt,…

Jason Aaron: .

Jeremy Schumacher: grow it out, right?

Jason Aaron: I mean years ago, I hit a point where I was like I mean, I'd always hated to shave and always, I've had a beard And all the times when I, Heard, when I wasn't working a job where I had to shave, I always had some kind of fish hire.

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Jason Aaron: So, at some point, when I was writing comics, I just had an epiphany where I was Wait a minute. if I have to go in for a job interview, at some point, I have seriously Screwed up my life. So I think I still have there anymore, I'm gonna get tattoos and grow my beard out and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Aaron: and I did and when I first time I grew it out, it got pretty unruly like I was just kind of clueless. I didn't know. How do you manage this? I hadn't had Aaron at that point for years so I used to putting a lot of work into it. So at some point, I got tired of it and shaved it off and then instantly regretted that and put it back. So now, I go in and get it trimmed up and shaped up at a place every once in a while and Have various beard oils and bombs and shampoos. And all sorts of products.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I tell people I wash it and I have to straighten it. When it gets this long, it gets a little curly sometimes but that's not a everyday process. And it's sea salt spray.

Jason Aaron: Yeah, my yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Sometimes you got to soften it. Sometimes you gotta whatever.

Jason Aaron: Mine is always really, really But,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: I mean most days, I don't leave the house except to maybe go to the grocery store. So,

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Jason Aaron: I don't have to interact with the public to have been

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I have to try and look nice or people won't listen to anything. I have to say in therapy so to be…

Jason Aaron: Sure.

Jeremy Schumacher: if someone presentable,

Jason Aaron: I'd luckily don't.

Jeremy Schumacher: but,

Jason Aaron: I'm wearing sweatpants right now.

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure, we're both wearing Star Wars shirts too, I noticed.

Jason Aaron: yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: Jason, this has been awesome.

Jeremy Schumacher: So much for making the time I was, I have a list of therapist.

Jason Aaron: Though, when you message me, you rattled off a list of things we could talk about. they were all clearly right up my alley. So, I think we were meant for each other.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jason Aaron: Jeremy, I'm glad we could make it happen.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. For sure, other than the comic book shop where can people find your work if they want to learn about what's coming up or…

Jason Aaron: I'm on Instagram and…

Jeremy Schumacher: what you got going on?

Jason Aaron: and threads and Twitter and such as you said, but for the best way to keep up with me is I have a sub stack Newsletter. So if you just look for Jason Aaron on Substack. I'm on there and I don't post every week or anything. you maybe get one once a month but that's the best way to kind of know. What you stuff do I have coming out? Where am I going to be? what? Am I up to all that sort of stuff?

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, that's how I knew about the Batman off World announcement.

Jason Aaron: And I will have,…

Jeremy Schumacher: So, That's…

Jason Aaron: you…

Jeremy Schumacher: how people should check it out and…

Jason Aaron: my marvel exclusive was up late last year so far this year I've been working on a lot of Brand new things.

Jeremy Schumacher: all that stuff along.

Jason Aaron: So you'll start to hear about the next ones of those. Coming up in a few weeks, I think. But, with even more to be announced, As a month go by.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, very cool. Yeah. Awesome. thanks so much for coming on. This has been really awesome.

Jason Aaron: Yeah, it was a lot of fun.

Jeremy Schumacher: And to all the lovely listeners out there, thanks for tuning in, we'll have all of Jason's links in the show notes and you can find all my info at wellness with jared.com. Everybody will be back next week with another new episode, take care.

Meeting ended after 01:30:12 👋