Your Therapist Needs Therapy 29 - Sex, ADHD, and Couples Therapy with Angela Skurtu

This week Jeremy is joined by fellow marriage therapist Angela Skurtu. Jeremy and Angela talk about sex therapy in couples counseling, trauma responses, and neurodivergent parenting. Angela also gives a sneak peek at her upcoming book Becoming Fuckable. It’s a great chat where we cover a lot of ground in a classic ADHD sort of way!

Angela has a ton of great resources available. You can find more about her work and her practice at her website, you can get her two books, or find her on YouTube. Seriously, follow her on YouTube, it’s such good info she puts out in these videos!

Jeremy and his various pursuits can be found at Wellness with Jer.

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Podcasts about therapy do not replace actual therapy, and listening to a podcast about therapy does not signify a therapeutic relationship. 

If you or someone you know is in crisis please call or text the nationwide crisis line at 988, or text HELLO to 741741. The Trevor Project has a crisis line for LGBTQ+ young people that can be reached by texting 678678. 

Transcript

Your Therapist Needs Therapy - Angela Skurtu (2023-10-03 09:05 GMT-5) - Transcript

Attendees

Angela Skurtu, Jeremy Schumacher

Transcript

This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it was created.

Jeremy Schumacher: Hello and welcome to another edition of your I'm your host Jeremy Schumacher at licensed Marriage of family, the Angela Skurtu shoot. I didn't even check my name pronunciation. I'm a terrible podcast,…

Angela Skurtu: Thank you so much.

Jeremy Schumacher: host. We just talked about this off camera.

Angela Skurtu: No skirt is perfectly. nobody ever does it. Perfect on the first try. So kudos to you

Jeremy Schumacher: All right. Maybe two or three years ago I saw you present at AMT Amft conference so maybe it stuck in there long enough where I could get it right. Angela. Thanks for joining me. I'm excited to talk with you. I follow you on YouTube.

Jeremy Schumacher: I've

Jeremy Schumacher: Get into the What was your introduction to the field of mental health?

Angela Skurtu: your video cut out a couple times, so if you just ask that question again, Okay, cool.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yes. Did you get my preamble?

Angela Skurtu: I did get your preamble but the question itself just cut off, so you're not

Jeremy Schumacher: Okay, yep. So I was like to start with the same question, which is How did you get into the mental health field? What was your introduction into doing this work?

Angela Skurtu: Yeah, so my introduction. So I got into this field. That's a lot serious. As you asked the question like man, so I came from

Angela Skurtu: It's interesting. I just read. So here's a little backstory. I probably have adhd too, by the way. So you'll hear it in the way, I talk. so just looked at this morning,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Angela Skurtu: the fawn response fight flight free spawn and I have a very high fawn response and I was looking at I was like, I want to research Where does this come from? And it said, common in abusive religious communities and I was so that's my intro to how I guess credited I get started in an abusive religious community and I'm not going to mention them because, they'll out themselves over time, to be honest, all of these communities do. But basically, yeah, it was an abusive religious community. And as a result I have a very strong fun response but what the abuse came from is Sexuality basically, shaming females and shaming anybody other than so if you didn't fit into

Angela Skurtu: Cisgender heteronormative. They wouldn't have even used Those saying those words would probably be, like, red flags for them or the patriarchy that's how you're an abusive,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Angela Skurtu: just By the way, if they're frightened by these terms, or overwhelmed, or whatever. so all that's to say, I was raised in a very shame-based community around sex. And as a result, Basically, I have very high compassion. I always have and just over time as I was growing up and working with different people like gay people in my religious community and even women, it was those two populations. All my friends would be

Angela Skurtu: Basically getting married too young because they were waiting till marriage doing the purity culture thing virgins until marriage. Then a year later,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Right.

Angela Skurtu: I was still the people would come to talk about things. They'd say, Yeah, sexist isn't for me. I'm not having a good time anymore. I'm struggling with this. I'm doing it for him which is a fun response. just interest, it's like, I was just hitting me this morning so that I had to do my own personal work to become a sex positive therapist need

Angela Skurtu: Only therapist the evolution from there to here has been, of course 20 years of time and a lot of unraveling of old shame and realizing that that's just not who I am anymore. And I'm not gonna hold on to any of that stuff. But even today, there's still a little bits of it where you're like, where did that one come from? I thought I got you.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah, so this is fascinating. I didn't know this was part of your story because I work with religious trauma so that's…

Angela Skurtu: interesting.

Jeremy Schumacher: what I joke. I keep finding guests who work in the religious trauma spaces or my urodivergent folks. I like to say my neurodivergent brain finds other neurodivergent brains.

Angela Skurtu: Of course.

Jeremy Schumacher: so, stepping away from

Jeremy Schumacher: I'm that. Intentional was going off to school and getting your education important for you or is that kind of like you pieced it together as you were going through it.

Angela Skurtu: Hey, I think I pieced it together as I went through it, so before I went to grad school, I was already starting to have trouble and have to figure out how to resolve my compassion, for lgbtq folks, and my religious belief system, which was like, You're going to hell pretty much at Christmas. I recently went to one of these churches a year ago and it's Christmas but they're Just remember you're going to hell, but Merry Christmas happy Jesus, Go have presents. I remember it's funny…

00:05:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Angela Skurtu: because me and my partner come from the same religious background and we both went because of family, whatever, we'll support family but he says, to me only in this kind of church, will they talk about hell on?

Angela Skurtu: And I just want to a wedding this weekend,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Angela Skurtu: too, and somewhere in there, there was a little evangelizing, this is your opportunity, God's coming any moment. there's always rapture, talk and the world's gonna fall apart. I think that's all they live for is, for the end of the world. there's no real joy in life beyond the end.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, it's all for the eternal prize, not for living in the moment.

Angela Skurtu: Exactly, but it's a lot of hard painful work for them. So yeah, to answer your question. It evolved over time, for And then I just think, getting edgy I went to Hawaii and Oregon for my bachelor's and master's degree. So very liberal states. it was really cool to be in my religion in Hawaii because in Hawaii I realized it was out of place It' how far strange it was my religious background. I had my first experiences in Hawaii where They kind of were taken aback by how strange our version of the religion was so I realized that also in my family. It was a little more aggressively religious than even other people in the same religious camp.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah, I think I grew up brookhill school K through 12 so I went to University of Minnesota which is a Big Ten university 60,000 students and it was my first time being around. Not super religious people and that awareness of this is weird. I'm weird I guess.

Angela Skurtu: Yeah, it's interesting how it happens in college. That's the most common time that people leave their religious that's for their Religious belief systems is in college because suddenly they've learned new things they're like there's something that exists other than this world that I've been raised and almost kind of brainwashed into my whole life.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. what was your? Section to Marriage and Family Therapy. Why was that? Kind of the thing that stuck for you?

Angela Skurtu: yeah, so I mean I figured Yeah,…

Jeremy Schumacher: From an interest perspective. Sounds like we started there.

Angela Skurtu: I did start with marriage and finley therapy. No, You're good. I started with marriage and family therapy because it started with sex. I was like, I know I want to do sex therapy but I realized he sex happens with at least more than one person. Some of the time I know people masturbate and stuff but for the most part, I hope you're not at war with

Angela Skurtu: Up when your masturbating But there can be that too.

Jeremy Schumacher: Right.

Angela Skurtu: I've learned as a sex therapist. The rest of my life is s***. That's not how it works.

Jeremy Schumacher: Right.

Jeremy Schumacher: We're just glitchy,

Angela Skurtu: Is that what's going, okay?

Jeremy Schumacher: Your audios fine. It's just here. I can double check something on my Wi-Fi. I have two different Wi-Fi in my office that I can flip-flop between.

Angela Skurtu: I saw you go quiet. So I was like, something's off

Jeremy Schumacher: it's like I try and let you talk before. I'm just missing out on my normal feedback of For cuz I don't want to interrupt you

Jeremy Schumacher: Audio spent good. My lovely media person will be happy.

Angela Skurtu: Okay.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yes, I'm trying to not interrupt you so

Angela Skurtu: So we are fine to interrupt me, it's always the fun flow of conversation.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna here, I might glitch out for a second. I'm gonna go on my other wi-fi and see if that's a little smoother here.

Angela Skurtu: Okay.

00:10:00

Jeremy Schumacher: We?

Jeremy Schumacher: We had a leak in my office and then the roofers came to fix it and they knocked a whole telephone line out.

Jeremy Schumacher: And it just hasn't been the Since they came.

Angela Skurtu: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Okay.

Jeremy Schumacher: We'll see this might be worse…

Angela Skurtu: Yeah. It's hard to know that one's glitching,…

Jeremy Schumacher: but this might be worse.

Angela Skurtu: too. They're both glitching. every now and then your questions which is out here but I just

Jeremy Schumacher: Another one's a little smoother. It's

Jeremy Schumacher: Okay, I went back to the first one. It seems to be better. The Audio's been fine. I'm just trying to not interrupt you because I know the videos a little behind

Jeremy Schumacher: Okay. We're groovy.

Jeremy Schumacher: I can cut the video off too, so it doesn't distract us, but I find it helps me. I don't know how often you do telehealth versus in person, but I prefer to be able to see people when I'm talking

Angela Skurtu: I do too where possible. I still sometimes struggle with it because it's just different when somebody's in the room. But I do prefer being able to see people. Otherwise I'll cut them off, not intentionally.

Jeremy Schumacher: Let's see. So we were talking about wanting to do, the sex therapy is kind of being the thing that pulls you towards marriage and family therapy, not being able to take somebody not being able to pull somebody out of their relationship or their other life contacts and just fix the sex part and then expect everything to be great.

Angela Skurtu: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Angela Skurtu: I've noticed I have to do, kind of parallel tracks was a long word, parallel tracks, where you're both working on the relationship and the sexuality. And actually that's to usually appease a heterosexual male. Yeah, that doesn't mean that.

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Angela Skurtu: So I think it's relevant to work on both you can work on a sex life and you can work on the marriage at the same time, but often if you focus solely on the relational aspects and the emotional aspects, then the guy gets Frustrated and impatient because one of this is my joke, it's a little bit of a stereotype but not everybody fits this. But the stereotype is as long as we're having sex again, everything's fine. Okay, and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Angela Skurtu: so if we're not having sex, we're still having problems.

Angela Skurtu: And so if we can get them working on both, then typically the guy will have a little more patience with the other part, but it's not always easy to do. Because there's usually a female and these heterosexual relationships. And she's always saying, No, we have to work on the emotions to get better at the sex. I can't be sexual without feeling emotionally close to you, and to be fair, neither of them is right or wrong. They're both wrong. so I try to How can we work on these in tandem? And what's interesting though, is like when people are having sex then they get more of those feel good chemicals. you're actually toast and your dopamine release is right and those feel good, chemicals. Do give us a little more patience and tolerance for working through conflict. And so I always try to bring in a little bit of the scientific reason behind, even just wanting to cuddle some It doesn't have to be full penetrative sex but even just having affectionate type sexual interaction.

Angela Skurtu: Can help with creating those chemicals that give you a space in your emotional relationship, to be more tolerant and kind with each other. But I still want to help people with their conflict because if you have a big blow up, Then there's still that I call it going offline, but couples basically go offline for a while, where they just shut down. That's so fight flight freeze. It's a little bit of the freeze. I'm not sure where shutdown, if that's more freezer fun, but they just shut down for a bit or go offline some version of dissociation, basically, until they come back on, and then it's like, they're starting the process over again. So we still have to get conflict more respectful or any work. They do in the sexual realm, just gets put on the back burner naturally because of the coping that bodies have to go through to get out of that space.

00:15:00

Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, and…

Angela Skurtu: That makes sense.

Jeremy Schumacher: does you use a lot of trauma language when you're talking about even just These fight flight freeze and fawn responses are all what we would talk about as a trauma response.

Angela Skurtu: Yeah, it's interesting. So after 2020, this is going all the way back to the pandemic. I've realized that I have to do more trauma treatment with people going through conflicts than I did prior to 2020. I used to before 2020 work with couples on the fair fighting rules, or some of gottman's, basic skills, like soft and approach offering repairs. These are all just communication skills but they're communication skills, you can do. If you're just slightly irritated or annoyed. But once you go full-blown into fight or flight, you really need to have a trauma response treatment to help people. Manage their options and support themselves and something happened in 2020. I think you all know, is the pandemic, We went through a global trauma. And so I remember,

Angela Skurtu: During that time, I kept having to pull out my trauma skills again and again because people weren't fighting just annoyed or frustrated anymore. People were full-blown in one of their coping skills like fight flight freezer acquiesce and since then I've basically been retraining every day. Couples on how to manage and support themselves through. This is So the sympathetic nervous system is the nervous system that kicks on when you're in fight flight freezer or fun. And basically, when you experience threat and we all experience the global threat that just lasted and so that I feel like this is just the outcome of people going through a pretty severe trauma but not realizing how much it impacted them. And of course you're a therapist Jeremy. So I'm sure you don't have to let me know, but you're sure you're experiencing some of the impact of that, right?

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I'm kind of processing as you're talking because I think it's interesting, I Formalized. I went back to school and got my certification in a religious trauma. I mean, out of the pandemic because I realized that's what I wanted to focus on working with and so I tied so much more of my trauma work as being because I had a new toolkit to use. But as you're kind of talking about the global trauma and needing to soothe more people's nervous systems that just kind of makes sense that that's all coming out of the pandemic.

Angela Skurtu: And of course, not all of it is because the religious traumas, a gift that keeps on giving. I mean it's been around forever.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Angela Skurtu: So yeah, people probably had those trauma responses before. This is just the first time recently, where we all went through, a pretty severe trauma and all of us kind of when it's that nervous system to support ourselves, So it's good. You got the skills for sure. We need them in our world.

Jeremy Schumacher: and it's fascinating too because I think I talk a lot about some of the gaps that therapist.

Jeremy Schumacher: Needs the

Angela Skurtu: You bring up a good point there, too. Because I mean, grad school, is this two-year period? They basically give you a sprinkling of a lot of different topics but Really is therapist needs therapy because I do think therapist needs therapy a good therapist.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I agree. was your master's program for marriage and family? Did you find a program that was specific to that?

Angela Skurtu: Yeah I went to University of Oregon and it was very specifically couples and family therapy. It was a co-amp approved group and I loved their education. I think they really tried to give a class in every potential thing so I really hail it as an excellent program.

Angela Skurtu: I still think they could have done a little better on teaching parenting. I don't know if many graduate schools teach parenting education finance because if you think of couples what are their? Biggest fights parenting. Finance sex. Those are the three top three. And I don't remember having any classes that specifically focused.

00:20:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Yep.

Angela Skurtu: We did have a sex class but it's just one because again it's grad school, you only have so much time. It's two years I had to do more formal training and sex therapy and I've also had to do more of my own personal training and the parenting and the finances too. And then it's interesting because even beyond that career coaching, as a couples therapist needs therapy. I have to teach people even do business coaching sometimes because it's like What do I want out of my quality of life? Am I where I need to be? I end up, like you friend one day you can go from business, coaching finances, to sex and hand jobs to my

Angela Skurtu: This is a serious issue, like whatever. I feel I don't know,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yep.

Angela Skurtu: you ever seen the balloon guy? That's on a car lot that flips up and down like this and that's the visual. I always try to represent when I think of what I do in a day for a couple.

Jeremy Schumacher: And for me, I'm neurodivergent so that for me is always been like my drive, I don't want six cases about depression, back to back. the variety really, keeps me feeling fresh throughout my day, so having something different. But yeah, it's work to yeah, my tears Master's program and my postgrad did not prepare me for everything and so figuring out what's within your scope of practice and…

Angela Skurtu: Up.

Jeremy Schumacher: then how to help people who are maybe outside your scope of practice, but are still in your office, it's like that balancing act. So I like learning, which is helpful that going back and going to conferences and picking up new skills constantly as a motivator to. So yeah, it's for all the people I work with who are like, How do you do your job? I don't know. My brain Having multiple people in the room. I'm more stimulated by that than just doing one-on-one therapy.

Angela Skurtu: I would agree. So my daughter has ADHD and that's how I found out that I too have ADHD. I didn't know it before, but I think that's what makes me simulated as well as. I thrive on that, if it's one thing too long, I get bored like boredom is the time constantly fighting in my business.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Angela Skurtu: And so what's great about owning my own business is I have all these different projects and it's funny because taught you mentioned. I have a YouTube channel. I have a book, I used to have a podcast. I did put that to bed but there are still some old episodes out there. But I have all these I get interviewed for podcasts, I'm for me in a day, I could have five different things occur even professionally and that works better for me. I thrive on that weird. we're doing this now. We're doing this, not too long.

Jeremy Schumacher: Right.

Angela Skurtu: Because ADHD is all about that executive function. And how do you go beyond? Just that I don't know. The first project excitement that you get basically, it's the dopamine hit that we get Is there's a cool new project. I have this idea so we get our dopamine hit and we're so excited. But the doping dopamine only lasts for so long. And then it's like, how do I keep doing this? my What do I need to do to put things? I practiced to make sure this sustains or it just falls by the wayside

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and it's speaking of something. We don't get taught and grad school owning your own business, I don't know…

Angela Skurtu: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: what your experience was, but I had no training in that. It took me a long time to get the confidence to be like I can run my own practice.

Angela Skurtu: No.

Jeremy Schumacher: I don't need to work with unethical people or people who aren't practicing in a way that's aligned with how I want to practice. But yeah, the dopamine for sure like I can tell when I have that right balance.

Jeremy Schumacher: Of.

Jeremy Schumacher: but it's not them. It's my dopamine. It's me as the therapist.

Angela Skurtu: Yeah, let me bring up something important there too, which is self-care. So every clinician has to figure out their own version of what self-care is. I know personally that if I have three couples that fight in a day, then I go basically I call it sociopathic, I can no longer handle emotions or feelings. So I always tell my partner, it's like, this is a time where I can't feel anymore and he's always like, I love you right now, because of course our joke. He's a guy, right? So this joke is he doesn't feel anything, but hunger and horny or whatever, but it's a joke, he does have other feelings but he likes that sort of like, I feel nothing now I just feel, Thing but yeah yeah, I have to have that sort of self-care of I can't deal with emotions anymore.

00:25:00

Jeremy Schumacher: That can definitely be draining. I've learned about myself since I have Some of the high risk pregnancy. Couples that I work with. I can only have a couple of those on my caseload at a time because It's just very hard to work with. It's very draining in a way that before I was a parent, it didn't hit me the same way.

Angela Skurtu: Yeah, that's so interesting how our lives changed now. You have kids so probably your thoughtful of them and that experience of just wanting your kid to make it safe and healthy. It's anxiety, isn't it crazy that parenting comes with anxiety A gift of parenting is …

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Angela Skurtu: They could kill themselves at any moment.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I title couples when they're first getting pregnant, often that, the first two years of having a child is the worst for your marriage. Because you're asleep. Deprived you have no resources and you have this tiny entity that had not fend for itself in any way, shape, or form. And it's just like, there's not an experience like that, You have a pet, you put it, and it's kennel and you leave for the day. that's not…

Angela Skurtu: They frown upon you putting babies in kennels just so you…

Jeremy Schumacher: what having a kid is So,

Angela Skurtu: you're definitely should.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. That's not good for their development.

Angela Skurtu: Speaking of that too, so my daughter she has adhd, I didn't know this, but I was thinking back to her first two years recently and there were some hints right? Of she probably has this but this is my first baby. So I had no idea what to expect my daughter stopped napping. it somewhere around six months to in a very young age and I remember the daycare lady saying, Does she not for you? And I was like, No, you get her to nap because it'd be great. And they're like,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Angela Skurtu: No, we just play with her while the other kids sleep and I'm like, all right. Yeah, that's my experience. so that's partly why I only had one kid. Is She was a ball of energy, still. she is just like, and I really think I'm the same ball of energy I can talk I'll say and I do and still be like and I get high speaking by the So by the end of this podcast, I'm gonna be crazy.

Angela Skurtu: Addict that's I just didn't realize that I gave birth to a ball of energy and as a result, it was exhausted. And I just,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Angela Skurtu: I was like I can't do this with another one. If another one was like, I just couldn't do this. So that was it one and done was good for me. I barely slept.

Jeremy Schumacher: did you have your diet? you said you didn't know you were ADHD until you had a kid and then it kind of made you reevaluate, some of your experiences.

Angela Skurtu: yeah, so I started just by talking with my partner, so I got So first, we did a full workup with her at Umsoul's School Psychology program and we got her diagnosed pretty young like five, But you could just see there were things that were a little different, I'm not even bad just different, right? I'm also as a therapist needs.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Angela Skurtu: When you give somebody, I'm gonna wear this kid out, When you try to, get them to run and move. But what's funny is for the ADHD brain, all of that's boosting her dopamine. So actually To try to wear herself out,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yep.

Angela Skurtu: just wakes her up.

Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm

Angela Skurtu: What's going on? And she could never get on any sort of sleep cycle. That was regularly we do our best and I have a basic nine o'clock is when we put her to bed. But sometimes she sleeps at nine, sometimes she's in her room drawing. I've got pictures of her with a marker like this holy sleep because it'd be unreasonable for me to expect her to act any other way, right? so when I got her diagnosis, then I sat down with my partner just kind of looking at the symptoms. I was like that. Let's do this. I'm curious what you think of this, obviously he's not a therapist.

Angela Skurtu: So we kind of just went DSM point by point looking at some of the symptoms that were there and I was like, Do you see this in me? I don't know if I see this. He's like Angela. Here's where I see it. I'm like you're right I totally do that.

00:30:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Angela Skurtu: Forgetfulness for example is one of the symptoms for getting little minor details but I couldn't even count on only one hand. How many times? I will forget a small detail but I'll have this big consequence and that's Of the I always talk about ADHD as being a very punishing diagnosis because of that the little detail can have a big consequence and that's where some of that ADHD shame comes from some of my clients, How could I have not known this? What's wrong with me? Why did I like, That's shame? And I consider shame and abuse the same They're pretty much the exact same thing, right? It's the way we treat ourselves or somebody else treated us.

Angela Skurtu: But those minor details can have big consequences for people. Funny how I know. I'm all over the board answering this question. So, basically, after going through those symptoms, it's like, okay, I've got the hyperactive it's a little bit combined, but I do have the hyperactive type. Just like my daughter and I'm not necessarily gonna do anything about it, other than I've developed a lot of skills up to this point, I'm going to research a lot about ADHD and continue. Do what I'm doing. But I personally don't necessarily feel like I need to take any sort of medication for it because I have developed a lot of tools and skills for it. And I've organized my business in a way that either I do it or I hire or delegate or streamline in a way that I don't have to do that executive function part. And to be honest, I like getting high my body's natural high is

Angela Skurtu: Super exciting and fun. And I have learned to play with it and use it to my advantage. That's a lot. It's

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. No, it's good because I think it's fascinating because I think we have the stereotypical idea of ADHD as that kid who gets bad grades because they can't sit still during school. And it's so much wider and that I was a straight a student. I was miserable because I was bored constantly, but

Angela Skurtu: yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: I didn't fit the stereotype of what people were looking for. What's that? Whatever opposite of a shoutout is to parochial schools for having no social support for kids who are different in any way, shape, or So how it got missed? I have no idea when I look back on it, but I was in grad school when I got my formal diagnosis. So one graduate degree down. I was a successful exercise, be good student and yet just miserable throughout that schooling experience. so I was on the lookout for it as a parent and definitely, as we have a five year old and a two year old, as the five year old started to Develop in his brain grew a little bit. I was seeing he's just tiny What did I need that? I wasn't getting in my own development.

Jeremy Schumacher: And trying to provide that for him in a So he goes to a Waldorf school, it's very sensory friendly and…

Angela Skurtu: He?

Jeremy Schumacher: they go for walks every day. They're not doing homework it's so good for him and like that he likes school is amazing to me. So we're gonna ride this wave as long as we can.

Angela Skurtu: That's amazing. No, I had a similar experience. I was straight a student except for every now. And then, I have this, remember memory in art class, I forgot to turn in a project. So I ended up getting an F on the project site, all A's except to see, and everybody's like, what happened here and I was like, it's one of those ADHD shame. So I don't know, I worked so hard on that project but I just forgot to turn it in. So yeah, never was noticed, but in grad school, for example, while learning and bringing in the info, I was like, I know what to do with this and I wrote my first book basically,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Angela Skurtu: as I'm in grad school this would be so much better if we just prevented this stuff. Let's write this down. I'm gonna tell people what to do so they don't have to get

Angela Skurtu: Year. So I'm still taking all this in but I basically brainstormed the outline for my premarital book in grad school. I wrote it later. But yeah, it's like, my brain was just Go so fast…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Angela Skurtu: which is again why? It's like No I don't want to necessarily shift it, I just want to create an environment that works for it, And I going back to kind of like parenting. that's a lot. How I like to raise my daughter as well. You mentioned making sure your kiddos in a different type of school right away. I got her an IEP so that we're fostering the school experience so that she is getting something positive out of it. And I'm happy to say there's some areas of growth, there's She does. there's some areas that she's definitely gonna have some struggle with but like she says to me, I'm in love with writing I'm like that's

Angela Skurtu: And great good, we're fostering that and she loves art and there's different things that she's really good at. And so it's like, what, we're gonna create an environment where you can flourish and we will come up with what we call build ramps for the areas where you struggle.

00:35:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah. and I wasn't diagnosed till later at sports was my saving grace growing up like you can't tire out an ADHD kid but you can make it so they fall asleep at night because they're tired that was my experience was like I didn't have homework. I was always weeks ahead because I was bored. So it's just after school sports sports and that idea of managing your dopamine through.

Angela Skurtu: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Exercise and food. I just ate constantly still do because I don't have that shut off valve in my brain that some of my sensory issues around eating that I have. So It's fascinating to look at my misdiagnosis and then have a kid who has it and be like, what can I do differently? So that he is a better experience with it.

Angela Skurtu: Yeah. I definitely do that myself but I don't know if you have some of this or not. So I talk about ADHD shame, a lot like that. What people who weren't diagnosed with Sometimes pick up these little shames areas where we're hard on herself because of some of our symptoms, And not having strategies or sometimes the big consequences are what gave us our opportunity for strategies? like something I've been challenging myself to do as a mom is I realize that one of my shames is when With Olivia's strong struggling in an area like of school because I said she's good in some areas but she struggles in some areas too, So my daughter has complementary dyslexia, So it's not just ADHD, but it's dyslexia. And so I realized recently that I was being really hard on myself when it came to math homework because she is struggling in math.

Angela Skurtu: And every time, the school would send home homework. First, I would beat myself up, for I guess giving her ADHD or being one of the responsible parties for it, And so I'd be and so I kept saying, I was like, I hate homework but it's not that I hate the homework, it's that I hate the way I treat myself. Every time I pull her homework out of her book bag. And so that's one that Recently had to challenge myself out of no Angela, it's homework, she'll do the best that she can but you're not a bad mom. Because she struggles with math. That's one recently I picked up on,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Angela Skurtu: .

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, my comments a lot of my compensation. Both my parents are teachers so education was super important growing up and I was raised in a high control religion as well. So it's not so much shame but that. Overachieving is my standard and if it's not overachieving. So I'm very cautious with my boys of They are advanced in certain ways their brains are very fast and move really quick. And they're good little athletes, which was my growing up so it's like being careful. Not to put that. you need to be exceptional at all times because that's how I compensated. That's how I got through. I can't forget to turn something in because then I will be a failure and so it's like none of it was healthy. It allowed me to have good grades and get through school, but, trying to not do that ADHD exceptionalism. So, I'm less on the shame side of it, but much more on the unrealistic expectations of

Jeremy Schumacher: I can pick up this random thing and be really good at it with zero practice that's not reasonable, you can't expect that all the time and so trying to watch out for that with my kids so that I'm not putting that on them.

Angela Skurtu: Mm- Yeah, and that is an exceptionalism just avoidance of shame, right? it's avoidance,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Right.

Angela Skurtu: it's like I won't allow myself to feel bad or feel like a failure. So I'm gonna be so good at So good at everything or I'll avoid things that I'm not good at, so I can still avoid feeling like a failure.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yep, yes, yeah. Here talking about, writing your books. I'm like, man, my three that I have started that none of them, I finished.

Angela Skurtu: so how I've had to shift as I'm growing up, so it's interesting. I think that there's a lot of ways that it's weird. But shame, and abuse can still kind of fuel certain tendencies, So I realized that in writing my first two books, one of the things that fueled me was a fear of failure, I've got to keep doing this because I don't want to fail, because I don't want to fail. And so that's one that I've actually recently unraveled I've go of and I think I've gotten much better at that one. It's okay to make mistakes, To make a mess. but it's funny since the fear of failure drove my writing of the first two books, now that I'm writing a third book, so my third book is becoming f*******. It's gonna be hilarious.

00:40:00

Angela Skurtu: All about sex but I don't have that same fear of failure driving me. And so it's funny. I've had some stops and starts, like I'll go and then I'll be like, and then I go, I was it's like so in some ways the fear of failure was that dopamine hit, that helped me with the executive function of writing, the first two books. So I have one of the ways I'm trying to adjust now that I'm like, let go of some of my shames is I just get help, it's okay to get a support. So I have somebody helping me with the book, So I'm writing there writing, but we're doing it kind of joint. So help it move along better and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Angela Skurtu: because, without the fear of failure, I can be like, I'll get to it when I get to. And a month passes.

Jeremy Schumacher: And that eight inch.

Angela Skurtu: And I'm like, I got others to do.

Jeremy Schumacher: That ADHD exception of them can kick in where it's like I can't crank out 12,000 words in a day if I need to so I can compensate but again, that's not healthy.

Angela Skurtu: and it's fine. I know other people with ADHD That's what they'll do is they'll just ride their dopamine highs when they have them. So when they have them they're like, all right. I'm gonna use this and I use this to my advantage, I still think there's some value to doing that. I just think only using that, probably not gonna get you.

Jeremy Schumacher: That's how I got through school was like a man, my master's thesis started the night before, which is awful. But At that point in higher education. That's how I had learned to do it. that was the only because I wasn't looking at it from an ADHD lens, that's all I'd learned. That worked was like, I'll just put it off and not beat myself up about it and right at the day before and usually get good grades. We'll see what happens.

Angela Skurtu: There you go. So interesting.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Angela Skurtu: Which at ADHD people are very good at cis, the crisis is that Hit that we need to get there and I am very good in crisis, it's my job to deal with people fighting but to your point earlier,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yep.

Angela Skurtu: it's interesting it still has an impact on us as humans, And so if I have to be in that space for too long then and it's not a fun thing. So with three couples fighting, that's my limit. I can't deal with emotions anymore. And my body is fried from having to manage those emotions.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yep.

Angela Skurtu: So I've also learned to kind of pick and choose my clients as I've been in practice now for over 10 years. So I do have the ability to kind of decide who my client case, though, is

Angela Skurtu: And so now I've developed a process of, people go through the assessment and basically at treatment planning is when I decide, whether they get to kind of stay or not, or a good fit, or if I need to refer them on and just some degree, like you, how you were saying I have to pick how many of the client high risk, pregnancy clients, I have to pick and choose. How many volatile or hostile couples that I take, Because it's such taxing work.

Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, and it's hard to screen for that all the time because you don't always know until you have it in the room where people are at

Angela Skurtu: Yeah. I mean for very hostile once usually they'll show up right up. But I don't know.

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure, yes.

Angela Skurtu: Yeah, so that's one thing I look forward to is. I kind of work with them over time but not everybody gets to stick around. I really do need a caseload. I even put it on my website that I'm looking for best friends who just need that That's my favorite client. It's your best friend types who've just lost that sexual energy and excitement with each other and they're trying to find it back because if they're best friends, they're probably treating each other nicely. They may be more conflict avoidant, which sex is a conflict. So, I'm teaching them how to lean into that conflict intention with each other,

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah, what have you seen focusing on sex as a niche that you're working with over the years? I look at something like as you came out in 2016 and it's on Most if not all therapist, the idea I think the availability of information for people has increased a lot. do you feel that? Do you see that or do you still see? some gaps there for people around their sexual knowledge that they're coming in with

Angela Skurtu: I mean, I definitely always see gaps because I'm in Saint Louis. So people aren't getting that sex education. I'm grateful that it exists and it's out there. But if you've been so going back to religious religiously traumatic spaces, one of the things that those religions do is they limit people's access to education and they shame you for wanting to get that access. They know that college is where they lose their people. So they're primary brainwashing, which they won't call it this. By the way, they call it, we're raising our children and our values but it is brainwashing, they limit their access to education. there's a reason why books are being banned from libraries. We're trying to limit access to other ways of thinking, because if you can usher somebody past a certain age and to still believing in that kind of small box and they will close off and some people won't ever break free from it. They'll stay stuck in

00:45:00

Angela Skurtu: Mind that style of thinking. And so there's very much whether they're aware of it or not, and I feel like they are aware of it. There's an insidious sort of like keeping of education from their people and where In my life, this goes back to some of my own history. I love knowledge. I love to learn from childhood all the way till now, I just wanted to know things and I was so curious. that's the ADHD curiosity, I want to know about this. I have 50 questions about everything. Right my daughters. Yes. So many questions. I was thinking parent…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Angela Skurtu: because she'll ask so many questions that sometimes we were like, Hey, okay, we're done with questions for a bit because we just get tired like she wears this out but I don't want her to stop questioning. I'm just saying in this moment. My question limit has been hit. That's about you.

Angela Skurtu: But I was raised Just curious about everything and in my world they would teach you that this knowledge is of the world or this is Once in, even the words, they used to know that, there's a phrasing around, you can't unknow these things that once you've opened your mind, to these things like that. it's like people turn their backs on God to know this information and it's funny if you think of Adam and Eve he ate of apple or whatever he ate, and then suddenly, he knew things he knew education.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yep.

Angela Skurtu: So it's just interesting to me. How much knowledge is a threat in these communities knowledge outside of your values and belief systems.

Angela Skurtu: And they are knowledge. Really is a type of empowerment because when going back to what you're saying about this sex education piece, when these people do get access to sex education, they can't continue to believe in their close-minded ways of being with you can't grow as a sexual person and stay in that old World value system. And so to go back to the original question, I can track back. I've trained myself in therapy.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Angela Skurtu: Yeah, it's there but it is hard for people to access it or think to do it themselves because of how they're raised.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and when I advertise for religious trauma, I get a lot of purity culture and people don't show up at my door often, they don't realize, it's religious trauma. Some people will show up knowing because I think social media has done a good job of putting purity culture on blast, but I didn't have any sex education, It was parochial School K through 12, so It was super shameful super taboo, like that wasn't a thing. I didn't leave the church right away, I just kept moving more and more progressive and more and more liberal. So, even early my career, I worked at a Christian counseling place and it was hard to do some of that work that I knew I needed to do with a couples. when they were adhering to a particularly strict understanding of Scripture, because it's propagating, unhealthy boundaries and it's propagating unrealistic expectations. So it was like

Jeremy Schumacher: doing this work for me, was kept pushing me further and further away from working with it outside of then, Ethical concerns around LGBTQ people and lots of stuff but yes, I'm in So similarly Midwest More Wisconsin has more bars but more churches than anything else in the cities and in the town. So there's that gap, I think the information out there. But like you said, it's hard for people to know where to find it or that they need to find it.

Angela Skurtu: And our job is therapist.

Angela Skurtu: Growth plant seeds. It's here. So this is something different. one of the things I really have taken to heart since 2020, is when I see abuse, I am calling it out. I'm very tactfully calling it out. But when I see abuse, I want people to know That's a form of emotional abuse. I don't know if you're aware of it. I don't think your intentionally doing it but here's how it is this. because there are ways that People have been raised to see abuses like normal or common, and it's not healthy, and it leads to a lot of harm. and whether it's religious abuse, whether it's

00:50:00

Angela Skurtu: You can neglect was when I spent a lot of time thinking about too. there's ways that couples are emotionally neglecting each other. And I don't think they realize that as well. There's just this way that if your parents did this and this is all, you've been modeled, you think this is normal, but there's tons of couples that are just emotionally neglecting each other and affectionately like touchwise neglecting one, another,

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Often, I use the phrase mindless or malice the Impact doesn't change a lot. Even if the intention between mindlessness or maliciousness is very different.

Angela Skurtu: Yeah, which is why, it's so important when people apologize to not think so much about your intention. It's apologize what impact did it have on others? Not your intention behind it because,

Angela Skurtu: This is a touch of terrible phrase but Hitler had good intentions, at least in his mind, And I'm not saying it.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Angela Skurtu: What allergic is good? I'm saying everybody's a good guy in their head.

Jeremy Schumacher: Right, just to clarify. We're not supporting.

Angela Skurtu: Everybody I to do this for this. I wanted to help in this way. This is what I thought was helpful. even being helpful. You can unintentionally impact people for harm, and so, being a thoughtful person being be kind as the new phrase that's out there and all the schools, which I love. But kindness looks like examining your impact on this world. Not your intention. we all have good intentions. It's rare for somebody to really be a villain. I'm gonna destroy the world, although I have been embracing.

Jeremy Schumacher: Right.

Angela Skurtu: My inner villain this last year and it's been quite fun. But that's just for Greek goodness.

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Jeremy Schumacher: I wanted to be a mad scientist when I was a little boy. that was my goals. Have a volcano layer somewhere. That's what I seemed really cool to me.

Angela Skurtu: I still think that the good life goal.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, maybe I think my toddlers are gonna join me on my quest. They see pretty primed for that as well. Angela, what do you do outside of the office? What does self-care? What does joy look like in your life? How do you kind of cultivate taking care of yourself when you're not in the room with clients?

Angela Skurtu: so many ways. There's behavioral and emotional ways that I do this one is through Challenging myself to let go of responsibility outside of these walls and letting my guard down. So, when I'm done, this is what I mean by these therapy walls, right. So when I'm done, I really close the door and I move into a space of. This is my downtime. I don't have to have to save anyone. I don't have to solve any problems like I'm here to just be myself. I do it through the people that I have in my life. So I always make sure I pick two-way relationships with friends and family members and if a family member doesn't fit into that, then I might create distance and that relationship. and there are some family members. I happen to have some preachers in the family. So some family members that I've cultivated

Jeremy Schumacher: Check.

Angela Skurtu: Some distance with so it looks like boundaries and friendships and family making sure that it's a good two-way relationship and that I'm minimizing drama in my life day to day. That doesn't mean people can't have feelings. It just means if I want to be able to share, they can share but also we can have fun. I am having fun all the time actually afterwards. sometimes we have Lego knights with my kiddo, sometimes it's funny, I wrote this list of all the things that we do and I was like, wow, I do a lot. That's another one of these mom commas. I'm working on, is Mom's always feel like we're never enough. And recently, I wrote this list of these are all the cool things I do with my kid and I was like, holy cow. This is the longest list ever. I was like, you have no right to have Mom trauma around. You do enough Angela, you do enough, but we do Lego nights. Nerf gun nights. We have roller skating. We have dance parties. We have certain shows. She and I like to watch, that's if it's family fun time, then.

Angela Skurtu: Couples fun time. So me and my partner, Shane is That's just the two of us. We have a hot tub. We go out to and the evenings to just relax. Once my daughter's gone to bed. So from 9 to 10 is our hour, we don't do it every night, but I'd say every week, we go, at least once or twice. He and I have things like we do country line, dancing and date nights.

Angela Skurtu: And we do get weekends away from my kiddo, constantly. I'm not leaving her all the time either, but I call it sharing priorities.

Jeremy Schumacher: Right.

Angela Skurtu: You can't make anything first all the time. So it's like sharing priority, And so a little bit of, when I think of self-care, I think of this field of piles, kind of like if you were playing settlers of catan or Stone Age, those are my favorite economics, gains and so you've build your piles up, So anytime you're playing these games, basically you're collecting different resources to build things, right? But at any point in the game, you have to look at your piles. What do I need more of, And so when I think of self-care, I think of this field of piles and you look at the different needs in life and it's like, Okay, nothing's ever gonna be perfectly in balance, but you got to look at What piles low? okay. I haven't got as much couple quality time. So how do I put some energy? And build this pile up a little more or what? I haven't had alone time. I haven't invested in a hobby lately or some girl time.

00:55:00

Angela Skurtu: So Basically, that's what I do is regular scans across my field of piles of needs and work on just making sure that there's regular placement into those piles. And then really, I've just created a quality of life that doesn't require coping all the time. I was just so crazy. But this is a long answer and I think it's an important one.

Angela Skurtu: A bigger part of self-care. So I do all the fun things, but it's not the activities themselves. It's having a whole quality of life in my job. I no longer put myself constantly go mode where I have to go, even in my work, it's like, I'm low-key. I'm taking care of myself and I'm managing what clients I take on after work, it's shut off. I have a clear boundary around, nope, I'm not doing work anymore. You all can f*** off. and I even tell my clients, when I go on vacation, I literally say, you'll f*** off and they love it. They laugh because I'm Custer,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Angela Skurtu: they appreciate that honesty, but I won't talk to them. It's like they don't exist. So, when I take a vacation, I'm fully gone. And basically, it's a whole quality of life experience. I have a lot of affection with my partner and we have a great sex life and so that's cultivating. That has been a part of myself here because then you get all the dopamine and oxytocin and endorphins, right. But

Angela Skurtu: Basically it's just living a whole quality of life where I don't have to constantly be in that fight or flight system. So it's interesting why this is coming up is that I was recently at this wedding and the mother of the bride screamed at me because I was offering snacks at lunch time. To everybody. my sister had asked me to bring some snacks so that people could eat when people are getting ready for a wedding, they don't always think about I'm kind of hungry. I should eat, right? So I literally was like, I'm just gonna take the table. Or I'm not trying to ruin all your cool decorations. I'll put it to the side but I'm just putting snacks out, And this lady goes like the mother of the bride screams at me, and it's interesting. So, I went into my coping of that's not cool, not okay. With that you need to cool it, so I put her in her boundary but then I went into that fawn of being super nice and so I hate that fawn mode a little bit because it reminds me of my religious trauma but I have circling this all story back

Angela Skurtu: I realized that I had some processing to do after that weekend. I'm okay. I made it through it's not a common thing. I will never really see that mother of the bride. Again, she's not in my life, but I realized that I've created a life where I don't have to cope like that often. It's a rare occasion. So, where we do need our coping techniques for situations like that because I can't live in a world where there isn't s*** sometimes, right, and that was a little shitstorm, I had to deal with

Angela Skurtu: So, I have it when I need it, but I'm also super grateful that I have cultivated a life where the people in my life, I don't have to cope with. I can just be myself and I don't have people like that to just constantly around and in general, it's more rare. Now that I ever have to do that coping technique and so to me, the bigger answer of self-care is creating a whole quality of life with every choice being intentional about bringing in goodness and giving goodness out to the world. So that's the answer.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and I love that because I try and sneak in. where's your joy? When I ask this question because I think the conversation around self-care, Sort of implies that we should be under some level of stress all the time and I don't like that I don't inherently disagree with it.

Angela Skurtu: No.

Jeremy Schumacher: Hey the world's on fire We're all dealing with some environmental trauma but we need to regulate our systems and we need to be aware of those things, but also like you're saying having boundaries in place and creating space where joy can exist, where your quality of life can be high. that's different than just I checked this box of self-care at the end of my day.

Angela Skurtu: That's survival versus thriving, right? Yeah no.

Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yeah.

Angela Skurtu: Do I fall all the time but because I've created a whole quality of life where that's a possibility.

Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, and you use cultivate which is a word, I do use a lot of gardening metaphors, even though I'm terrible at gardening, Because I think a lot of these things, it's like, right, we're not crossing some finish line, there's work there's effort to go into it, but when you've created a healthy environment, it's minor maintenance, some random occur inside a wedding, maybe ticks off a response but it's minor. There's some weeding that goes on, but things are growing. The nurturing has happened. So now that growth can happen,

01:00:00

Angela Skurtu: I like that way. there's some weeding you have to weed out some things, right? that was a weeding but whatever. Okay, a weed popped up. For the most part, I have this really beautiful garden and I've started getting rid of perfectionism, for example, I don't say, It can be was it good enough to say? That's a good day even giving myself wins there. It's like I got some things done.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Angela Skurtu: I laughed a bit It's good enough day.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I struggle with that. So with that exceptionalism, I was raised in the you got five, eight, pluses. But what was that class? That you got an A in I don't know but I still have to work through some of that stuff Angela Yeah,…

Angela Skurtu: We will be working, right?

Jeremy Schumacher: you hinted at a new book coming up. Do you want to talk a little bit more about that?

Angela Skurtu: Yeah. Yeah, So I'm writing the book becoming*** and It is how it is about desire and it's actually a reframe on some of the desire stuff that's out there. I know, Emily Nagoski talks about responsive versus spontaneous desire, which I think are good starts. I'm going to take them and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Angela Skurtu: add to create more of a spectrum because I do think those particular terms have some deep roots. Still in heteronormative sexuality. And so I have kind of developed my own system for how to teach.

Angela Skurtu: People how to refind their desire and their interests and sexuality, which I think Emily was already doing this start, I couldn't do any of this without her work. I greatly appreciate everything. She's done but we're supposed to take it and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Right.

Angela Skurtu: run with it, So I've taken some of her work and run with it in a new direction but adding some different ways of looking at things and each section covers a different thing. So there's an individual section of things you need to do ways to unravel shame. In yourself ways to become more open to being a sexual person and allow yourself to take on that identity and then behaviors that. You can do that help you really own that sexual identity.

Angela Skurtu: As in the individual section, then there's the couple sexual section and all of them have** language. So f****** as the individual section. f****** people is the couple section where you like having sex with other people, then there's down to f*** which is all about sex and how to have sex and what are the fun things, like different, cool things that you can do different sexual journeys. You can take the whole framing is like, sex is a journey and then of course, the end has to be cluster fox when sex becomes problematic. The whole book is.

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure, love it. These are Fantastic. Yeah.

Angela Skurtu: Yeah, the whole book is Fun. f*** language I use f*** because I love it. It's like I'm wanting to use it and sort of positive ways and exploratory ways. But to really give even people who have great sex, I still deal with problems, right? And that's actually a normal part of a sex life. So the cluster f**** are all about different ways that couples can approach sexual problems in a proactive and positive ways. And it's just really basically teaching creative sexuality, how to step outside the heteronormative bubble and learn how to be creative and playful and really own sexuality for what it is. this wonderful. I don't know. I feel like it's the essence of joy. It really is and so that book is coming out in the next year. And of course, you'll see little tidbits on my YouTube channel as well because the YouTube channel on sex and relationships and parenting as well.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and I follow you on YouTube, I love your YouTube channel. I love. How There's a lot of great sex educators out there and coming out of being raised in purity culture. for me it's still very like an embodied experience for people who are talking freely about sex and engaging in those conversations. So, I love that it's always been clinical, I don't like clinical. It's been like, I think I did is a therapist.

Angela Skurtu: Okay, no.

Jeremy Schumacher: Hey yeah, awesome. people should like it's okay to have questions around this stuff. let's talk about what we know and what research says and how to talk about it.

Angela Skurtu: That is the most popular video actually Jeremy and what she said because how to give a Volvo massage is I guess second but I would like it to be first. Right. It's…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, that's probably what fewer people know about, If we're being honest, Yeah.

Angela Skurtu: though it's getting out there. That's the big point is that we're putting the information out so people can talk comfortably and casually about sex which is my ultimate goal. I want sex out of that fight with flight response and into that parasympathetic nervous system where it's like, this is relaxed. This is okay, this is a normal part of your life. that's…

01:05:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Angela Skurtu: what I'm trying to do with couples and individuals and writing the book is really sex needs to become comfortable, and casual for you to have good sex.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yes, I often refer to it as the stress relievers having an orgasm. So That idea of being able to say Hey, this is a good useful thing in your life. Yeah, awesome.

Angela Skurtu: 

Jeremy Schumacher: And we'll post to the YouTube channel. I recommend it. I don't know if it's because we're neurodivergent and so my brain likes your brain but that the way you approach things and talk about things, I mean, they're short videos. You do two to five minute videos. A lot of your clips are, so it's complex stuff kind of filtered through a lens, that's pretty understandable. So we'll have that in the show notes to recommend it and where else can people find your work?

Angela Skurtu: A the podcasts. Anything I do therapist.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, And we'll have that in the show notes as Thanks so much for coming on. This has been great.

Angela Skurtu: Jeremy, this is fun. And I'm high.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and all the listeners out there. Thanks for tuning in again. We'll be back next week with another new episode. Take care of everyone.

Meeting ended after 01:06:34 👋