Your Therapist Needs Therapy
Everyone needs help with their mental health, even mental health professionals. Join us as we have your therapist take a seat on the couch to talk about their own mental health journey!
Your Therapist Needs Therapy
Your Therapist Needs Therapy 31 - Therapeutic Horse Riding with (Friendly Atheist) Jessica Bluemke
Special guest episode! This week Jeremy is joined by one of the co-hosts of the Friendly Atheist Podcast, Jessica Bluemke! Jessica works with the Hanson Center to provide therapeutic horseback riding and related services. Jessica and Jeremy talk about how riding can be so helpful to those with disabilities, how riding a horse mirrors some aspects of somatic therapies, and of course we take the chance to talk about how the religious right is awful for society.
Learn more about therapeutic riding services and support opportunities at the Hanson Center here, and follow Jessica on the terribly informative and wonderfully entertaining Friendly Atheist Podcast.
Jeremy and his various pursuits can be found in one nifty location at Wellness with Jer.
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Podcasts about therapy do not replace actual therapy, and listening to a podcast about therapy does not signify a therapeutic relationship.
If you or someone you know is in crisis please call or text the nationwide crisis line at 988, or text HELLO to 741741. The Trevor Project has a crisis line for LGBTQ+ young people that can be reached by texting 678678.
Your Therapist Needs Therapy - Jessica Bluemke (2023-11-02 10:35 GMT-5) - Transcript
Attendees
Jeremy Schumacher, Jessica Greiff
Transcript
This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it was created.
Jeremy Schumacher: therapist
Jessica Greiff: Plus thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Jessica Greiff: Yeah, absolutely. So, I think the reason who I am and if anybody's listening I'm a host of the friendly atheist podcast with Hemet Metta and then in part of my real life, I work for a therapeutic horseback riding Center in Burr Ridge. It's called the Hansen Center. So by the ray Graham Association, it's a illinois-based nonprofit.
Jessica Greiff: and I've been involved on and off with the handsome Center since I was a teenager maybe even younger I grew up near This Barn where I now work and was a horse kid as so many of us were and this was one of the few ways I could interact with horses. but what it is is it's a barn that serves primarily kids and adults with various disabilities arranging from emotional PTSD things like that up to we have kids who are
Jessica Greiff: A very autistic pretty far along in the Spectrum maybe nonverbal often can't physically walk so I guess just to sort of dive in a head first. I love talking about this stuff. So if I get too deep in the woods, please let me know. Also, I should say I am not a therapeutic horseback riding instructor. I work for this barn, but I volunteer with the kids. I work very very closely with all the instructors who do but I'm not certified. So just for what it's worth. so there's kind of two different.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yes.
Jessica Greiff: Flavors of horse-based therapy. The first is hypotherapy, which is something I'm learning about right now. hipotherapy just so a little Latin lesson hippopotamus is Latin for a water horse. So hippo is actually the Latin root for a horse. So you see things like hit the drum and things like that. It's about horses not hippopotamus. Although what a magical world. That hypotherapy is a version of therapy that really just physically uses the horses movement and Dynamics as they walk to do physical therapy and occupational therapy. So we've got somebody leading the horse. We've got a physical therapist.
Jessica Greiff: Therapist the writers on the horse and they're doing and in this they're not learning to ride a horse. They're not learning that woah means stop or squeeze your legs means essentially they can build it to Insurance because they feel the horses is like Dynamic surfaces or something like that and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Jessica Greiff: they're just using the movement of the horse to facilitate therapy. So when you're writing a horse whether you're bareback, whatever saddle you have your hips your lower body actually move the same way. They do when you're walking.
Jessica Greiff: so what that does especially for our writers who aren't strong enough to stand up on their own or don't have the capacity to stand on their own but they're doing is they're building up those core muscles that help you stand up and it has all these really far-reach, facts. I heard one of the therapist therapy and all sudden his pelvic floor is strengthened because when you think about just holding yourself up in a chair in a stool, that's a lot of work. Let alone stabilizing. the horses moving under you. and so that's what the hypotherapy is all about at our barn. It's very much like they'll come for eight 10 12 weeks sessions. It's not a consistent thing.
Jessica Greiff: The therapeutic writing end of it is what I'm more involved in and I can dig into a little more. So the essential part of it is that we're teaching kids and adults to ride horses horses have a huge therapeutic benefit because they are hurt animals. So the same way dogs and not so much cats, want to be around you and kind of foster sense of community horses are the same way and people I cannot explain what it is about horses that just sort of triggers something in people. That's really
00:05:00
Jessica Greiff: If they're not afraid of horses there's something very special about the bond between a person and a horse. and to look at a kid who's maybe young or maybe has been in a wheelchair for most of their life or can't really stand up independently, you put them on those horse. And you can have a couple people physically supporting them that person is physically taller than everybody else and they're controlling this giant thousand pound animal. Of course, they're getting guidance, but the emotional feeling of being in charge of something and bonding with an animal. It is something that's really really special and really meaningful to people. So one of the things I really enjoy talking about is kind of how horses. interact with each other and with people
Jessica Greiff: because horses and I do tours of the barn. I always joke this might like Millennial trying to talk to gen Z or horses. Just kind of operate on Vibes if you imagine, they were wild animals. They're prey animals. So everything about how they function and how they move through the world. Goes back to being a Praying animal so they are constantly constantly, I'm gonna look out for people call them Valens. is there a goblin around because they're just constantly. Looking around now if you're in a horse heard, right and there's a hundred horses and there's a wolf on the left side of the herd. They don't have words to communicate things and so it is just a Vibe shift that goes through it is agitation. It is like that feeling of being up.
Jessica Greiff: And that clicks in with horses really really quickly. So when you approach a horse and you're up and have a lot of energy or you're afraid your horse is reading that God, what's wrong their Goblin like somebody gonna get me? And so that's why when you see people who are afraid of horses, they often have negative interactions with that horse because the horse is like you're right. This is scary what's going on here? but
Jessica Greiff: and especially the horses that we use for our program the calm of them is something that's really hard to kind of portray unless you're there is just something very peaceful about spending time with animals in general and these kind of big huge animals that are dangerous but in general very gentle and not malicious, right? There's something really really magical about it to be blunt. And there's a ton. I mean I have lots of opinions about lots of things but there are many people who volunteer with us at the barn who they consider it their therapy as well because they come in they groom horses and
Jessica Greiff: if you've ever gone for a walk with your dog in the woods or just had a kind of moment of Peace in a rural adjacent environment. I think there's something to be said about. having
Jessica Greiff: As humans, I feel like we have jobs that sort of don't end and don't come to satisfying conclusion. But when I have to go in and clean a stall it's a 15 minute chore and I break a sweat and all that stuff and when I'm done that stalls clean and looks nice and I had the job satisfaction of having done a job and can see the results right away. So I think that's another part of it of being able to and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jessica Greiff: tasks you don't get to do ever right.
Jeremy Schumacher: Right and thinking of terms of grooming and taking care of that horse like the responsibility but also building that connection and that bond with it and task completion. That gives us dopamine so I may City Slicker. I was born in the city. I still live in the city a very few interactions with horses. So I'm curious. I know a lot about therapy dogs. One of mine was a good temperament rescue dogs are always a bit of a wash with what you're going to get and so he was Canine Good Citizen certified which is the Level under therapy dog. So are there breeds of horses that specifically work well with this are there types of horses that Do the horses need to get certified and…
Jessica Greiff: up
Jeremy Schumacher: special training?
Jessica Greiff: Wait, hold…
Jeremy Schumacher: Tell me a little bit.
Jessica Greiff: Hold on. Are you telling me you're about to let me talk about horses for 20 minutes and…
00:10:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. That is…
Jessica Greiff: it's gonna be recorded in other people listen to it. This is the dream it
Jeremy Schumacher: why you are here. Yes teach us. We learned a little bit of Latin already. So now I'm excited to learn about horses.
Jessica Greiff: Okay, so horses come in a few different. Chunks, So you have ponies. small horses are full grown at that size. Right Ponies are not baby horses and you have your kind of standard horses and then you've got warm Bloods and draft breeds and there's a lot of variations essentially Depending so yeah. I almost got real deep in the Weeds about breed standards.
Jeremy Schumacher: Start with a series start with the city's liquor…
Jeremy Schumacher: who has knows…
Jessica Greiff: yeah, yeah services so Okay.
Jeremy Schumacher: what Clydesdales are and that's about it.
Jessica Greiff: Imagine you are a farmer in a ninth Century England and you have to plow your field or whatever. What are you looking for in an animal? You're looking for somebody big and sturdy who's not gonna get injured easily looking for a horse that is home enough that if they get stuck somewhere if something goes wrong, they're not gonna Panic immediately. You don't need them to be especially fast, You don't need them to Have any quick reaction skills, you're looking for a really steady animal you can put in front of a cart and they will walk up and down that field all day. So that's where draft horses in general come from. And there's a huge overlap. So you're halflingers and fjords and things like that have those same standards, but they're not the same size. So
Jessica Greiff: essentially people bread out horses to do very specific tasks, so you Have horses that are racehorses right that are bred to be fast and slick and those horses are out of their goddamn Minds because nobody breeds them to be sensible or calm or whatever. They breed them to be fast. right, so when you work with thoroughbreds or…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Jessica Greiff: even some other Hanging Tree like saddlebreds and things like that when they are bred for a function that is going fast. Clicking lifting their legs all fancy having a really Arch head, tail set or head or whatever when they're breeding to those you're gonna end up with the Thoroughbred which is a f** lunatic and they will, see a shadow I wrote a horse who is a therapist.
Jessica Greiff: Boy, what was his name Hank who was his name? And we would be in the arena cantering which is a slow Gallop thing. And every time we got to this one corner when it was nighttime and the lights were on the arena his shadow would pop up on the wall and every f****** we could return that corner. He would spook at that shadow same thing.
Jeremy Schumacher: I'm sure.
Jessica Greiff: He's out over and over again, but just his breed is one that it's fine for them to be like gluten ticks because they are bred to be fast or high jumpers or fancy Movers.
Jessica Greiff: As opposed to the horses we are looking for which is the opposite so to it we have a couple draft crosses. So that means they're half draft horse, which is kind of that Big Calm animal that's gonna help us with a temperament. Generally the bigger The mellower they are ponies are the ones you have to be careful. It's not unlike dogs actually like Little yippy ones are the ones you're gonna f*** you up in the big ones are like they might accidentally knock you over…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Jessica Greiff: but they're not doing it out of maliciousness.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yes, I have two Great Dane mixes and they are gentle Giants and…
Jessica Greiff: exactly you understand.
Jeremy Schumacher: I have a Chihuahua who is a psychopath.
Jessica Greiff: You understand ponies versus draft horses.
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, I'm on board.
Jessica Greiff: Like all so in terms of temperament we tend to end up with either draft classes.
Jeremy Schumacher: I get it.
Jessica Greiff: We have a quarter horses. are very American breed. they are the cowboy horse. They're really versatile breed. They can look like a lot of different things but in general with Quarter Horses just with dogs, every breed has the thing that you're stoked about them being able to do and quarter horses are kind of like a lab. They are a very good all-around horse there they have been used all through American history to I mean, obviously let's You know the Cowboys and the problematic, genocide of it all but when you imagine a cowboy in the old west the right and they're riding a quarter horse. They're short. They're stocky they can move quickly spin around because if you're in a pen and you sorting paddle and you have to get this one cat the horse has to be smart and calm and focused and quick.
00:15:00
Jessica Greiff: So they tend to have pretty Attitudes and then the last one. I just learned this a couple of months ago and I just find it really fascinating. We have a handful of Icelandic courses on our property. Which are from Iceland and we've had a few.
Jessica Greiff: And they've always been very calm and wonderful, and I just adore them. And I learned that the reason Icelandic courses are so you guess why Icelandic course, this might be calmer than another horse than another breed of horses. So think about why are horses nervous?
Jeremy Schumacher: redditors so Iceland has very few natural predators.
Jessica Greiff: because predators
Jessica Greiff: There's no apex predators and…
Jeremy Schumacher: none
Jessica Greiff: So they've evolved away from having that pray instead. I mean, they still have it obviously, but it's not as notable because generations of not having to read specifically to be fast and alert and scared. So it's all I think really interesting stuff.
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Jessica Greiff: Yeah and you ask kind of about certification and that's Part of what? My job recently is been going to find horses that work for our program. And friend it's really really hard I think anybody who Has done a career change or tried something new and just sort of. Splatted face first and it didn't work at all. that feeling of I really thought this skill would transfer of that and it's just not the same. So we definitely gone through horses who they come in and they
Jessica Greiff: Aren't happy doing the program that we have. They don't like the kind of work that we do whether it's too much or too little or too loud or Interesting enough. You just kind of never know but we are always looking for horses. Who are Smallish and strong and so that's when get you're halflingers…
Jeremy Schumacher: Okay.
Jessica Greiff: which are they northern European breed. They are really small and they are tough as nails and They can survive really cold weather. It sounds like they don't get injured easily. So thoroughbreds they hurt themselves that they look at the ground wrong because they're very danking.
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jessica Greiff: They're very lanky. Whereas are the guys we have their legs are stocky their feet are big because they can hold more weight that way and that's really important for what we do because Even if we have a writer who's bigger in every single we have weight limits. I guess I haven't even walked through what therapeutic writing looks like. Yeah. Sorry.
Jeremy Schumacher: We'll get there.
Jessica Greiff: I'm so sorry, okay. Yeah,…
Jeremy Schumacher: We have time.
Jessica Greiff: so when you are in a lesson you can have as many as three people around the horse. So one person leading the horse and then two people we call them sidewalkers. Sometimes they're just spotty but oftentimes they're physically holding the person's leg onto the saddle because if they're top and balance it, falls off balance. You have them kind of ground into the saddle more or less. So imagine a half hour lesson walking around, a ring like this with your arm up against a person's leg if the horses this big you're gonna wear out your volunteers and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Jessica Greiff: so we're always looking for short horses and strong horses because we do have bigger people and especially those who, have mobility issues, it's very easy to put in weight and that way and it's called a lift God. I don't know. That literally sit in a chair and there is an apparatus that comes under your arms and under your legs and literally Slides you over in the lowers down onto the horse. And the first time I watched this huge machine lower a human. It was like Peter Pan they're just floating just right in the horse and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Jessica Greiff: the horse just stood there and I was astounded I remember that I was a teenager and I remember watching it happen and just having a moment of dang horses we can get horses to do anything? Because if you had told me that that was Possible or feasible or easy to accomplish? I would have been like no, that's an insane thing. That's what a crazy person would do is put a machine onto a horse. That's insane. so the therapeutic writing lessons themselves tend to be we have between one and four Riders Max.
00:20:00
Jessica Greiff: I think usually it's about two or three and most of our writers have been with us for years that the majority of them when they come there's a very very long wait list for the program. And so frequently once they get in they stay in there's not a ton of therapeutic writing programs around Iran where we live. So if you're a new router you would come in and we would do a little bit of an evaluation in terms of your ability and your needs so when we start to think about pairing a new Rider with a horse you start thinking about I mean obviously size we've got one kid Tim who is six five maybe so he has to go on our big tall horse. And then we have a little ones that…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Jessica Greiff: if you put them on even a small pony of that ponies too why their legs are out in the splits and it's uncomfortable. So you have to be really aware of sort of the writer and Names are in the horse. So it's a lot of work to figure out good pairings between people because horses have very strong personalities. just people just like dogs. And there are Riders who maybe will make a clicking sound sometimes and that could upset them. you have to think about…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Jessica Greiff: how each writer is interacting with the horse. So you have to think about size and movement and also Tim has to be on Prince because he's so tall but Prince doesn't like being closed in his back end. So nobody can have a sidewalker with Prince because of X it's just constant. this horse means this and this Rudder needs that and you just have to make it kind of all stuck up and work together and…
Jeremy Schumacher: sure do
Jessica Greiff: it's tough.
Jeremy Schumacher: Next to this other person or put its hat on your lap or move away from them and lay by the door. So with the therapeutic riding horses. Is that something where they have their Natural Instincts, but they've been trained to respond to certain stimuli or if that Vibe is off is the person kind of like leading the horse to
Jessica Greiff: That's a really really interesting question because we generally don't train horses the way we train dogs in terms of voice commands. Will you…
Jeremy Schumacher: sure.
Jessica Greiff: Which isn't completely we say, walk on as something Whoa is something they know and even just kind of talking to horses. They get your tone and your Vibe and a lot of times I coach my writers to talk to their horse and the lowest voice they have an easy and it's okay. It's and that calms them down and calms their horse down.
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Jessica Greiff: but in terms of that So that's just such an interesting question. I never thought of anything like that because no It's less emotional therapy and More Physical Therapy the emotional therapy I think is more of a happy byproduct. of the physical benefits of it.
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Jessica Greiff: because I Did it so God our horses are so good. They are really good at responding to. What they think they're supposed to be doing we have one writer who again is nonverbal. She can't really support herself, but She can pull back and she can make her horse back up. So when you're writing a horse pulling back means stop if you keep pulling they're gonna back up. She can pull that and her horse Ziggy hope as soon as he feels that hold back up because he knows what's expected of him and he can tell that all the people around him are encouraging him to back up. but aside from that not like we teach the kids. Walk on whoa, things like that.
Jessica Greiff: More to sort of foster a cause and effect thing of when you do this this happens.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jessica Greiff: because we are teaching our kids to talk to horses in a new language kind of right like we say walk on that's obviously English but squeezing your legs together isn't how a human being says go, right? That's not…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Jessica Greiff: how we naturally want to so you're also teaching these kids. If you do this your horse will do that. It's a really quick cause and effect of you pull to the right you're worse is going to go to the right and…
00:25:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jessica Greiff: the feeling of being able to control the animal like that is really powerful really
Jeremy Schumacher: And it's almost like a modeling then of if you do this your horse is gonna do this. So even though it's maybe not emotional in that sense to kind of a biofeedback Loop of if you want your horse to calm down you're doing this which is modeling for that child or that whoever the writer is that you controlling your emotions and your behaviors.
Jessica Greiff: 100% and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Will have this effect.
Jessica Greiff: it makes me think this isn't something I've done a ton of research on but horses have been used as therapy Tools in a lot of different settings and prison rehabilitation. because the fact is with horses.
Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm
Jessica Greiff: You can't force them you can. But you can't force them to do anything. They don't want to do right unless you're gonna be* out of your horse,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Jessica Greiff: which I would randomly discourage. They're gigantic animals.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jessica Greiff: They're not gonna do anything. They don't want to do so if you are say a guy who has been taught his whole life that anger is the only way to get what you want or aggression is doing intimidation is the way you get what you want you put that person with a horse and that s*** is not going to fly because you cannot out intimidate a horse because it can kick you in your dumb head and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Jessica Greiff: so Learning this element of partnership as opposed to controlling. it's something that's really valuable and to what you said if you come in angry or hot or whatever your horse is going to read that immediately and be like friend, not today. I teach writing lessons to Independent writers. and I have one student who gives a ton of anxiety and she will come in and then come to me near Tears like my horse is acting like this and blah I'm like, you are wound up tighter than a spring right now. So do you think maybe he's picking up on that and it is a way for her now to look externally.
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Jessica Greiff: To see what her emotions are looking almost right if her horse is acting weird and all of us are she's been fine with me. Are you coming in with a bananas energy? are you upset about something and he's picking up on that? and you can't Create stuff like that, you can't fake being calm around a horse.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jessica Greiff: They know the difference between still intense and calm like I do. Just in my daily working with horses. I do so much meaningful exhaling because I can feel myself getting and I am a super hyperactive person. And so it is a thing that I work on. All the time is getting my energy down and not being If I'm coming in with an agitating energy that is going to be reflected on the animals. I'm working with.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah, that's so fascinating because I think it with PTSD, we talk a lot about for therapist needs therapy. That's such a different way to process but that is the way that We process something like trauma. So I think that mean it makes a lot of sense as you're talking about it I think too bilateral stimulation is really good. We know for processing trauma so I can imagine that motion of being a horse. I've never ridden a horse so
Jessica Greiff: Wait, hold on. Could you say bilateral stimulation is good for trauma? Could you Digger than that? But whenever my head
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah for sure bilateral stimulation. So when our brain has to process stimuli coming from both directions, so reading the natural eye movement. So EMDR is a big t Technique to work with somebody who's trauma. So it's eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. So you're following lights moving across kind of in front of you and your eyes are moving back and forth It's bilateral stimulation. And so we know now yeah.
Jessica Greiff: would a movie or something like that? Is that not bilateral stimulation?
Jeremy Schumacher: Because no because it's coming in from One Direction. and so because your eyes are having to move back and forth.
Jessica Greiff: but reading is
Jeremy Schumacher: So I don't know nothing about horses,…
Jessica Greiff: No bilateral stimulation. That's really interesting.
Jeremy Schumacher: but I know about trauma. So I'm just connecting some dots in my own head. I haven't looked into the research at all. But I would imagine there's some at least. And a cursory benefit from that motion of being on a horse.
00:30:00
Jessica Greiff: Yeah. that's very interesting fact about horses. their brains are not bilateral. So if you're walking a horse around and he sees something in his right eye like a big scary flag is also in a place that's not supposed to and he sees and he goes by a couple times to circling to the left and it's fine turns the other way. He sees it again because the process didn't go from his right eye to his left eye.
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Jessica Greiff: So he's reprocessing it again. So it's just one of those things when we have something new in the arena. I have to tell my kids go both directions, make sure he sees it with both eyes because otherwise it's not going to cross over.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah. Man, I need to look more into horse therapy because now I'm like,…
Jessica Greiff: I need
Jeremy Schumacher: I wonder if this would be better for drama Than People realize.
Jessica Greiff: we have people with PTSD and things like that. there's a ton of emotional benefits to be in the horses.
Jeremy Schumacher: But it's just such a holistic approach because again, you're building a relationship, which is Meaningful. You have commitment, you're showing up on time and you're meeting with this horse. You're getting to learn about the horse.
Jessica Greiff: mmm
Jeremy Schumacher: You're getting that in the moment bio feedback, you're getting bilateral stimulation. And then for the people who are maybe more able-bodied or doing more responsibility learning how to take care of the horse and responsibility that way so I can just imagine how it's such a Encompassing showing up to the bar and is such a positive for people.
Jessica Greiff: And also you talked about simulation but this smells of a barn the way the light like it is very you said all encompassing you walk in it smells like Barney smells it smells like whatever. and it doesn't hurt that at our barn anyway the volunteers who there are just what mostly lovely women happy to be there. the horses love learning about the horses Love Actually not on each other's lives. they build these little communities in a lot of people come in to volunteer and kind of say this is my therapy. This is how I feel better about my day. I just come in and get some hands on time with horses and I just feel better. would you mind…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jessica Greiff: if I picked your brain for one second? I have a kind of So my co-workers and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, go ahead.
Jessica Greiff: I all of whom are women. Have been talking a lot about why girls tend to be attracted to horses and women tend to be attracted to horses more so than boys and men.
Jessica Greiff: And I recently had a kind of weirdly Illuminating experience online. Where did you see the movie? Nope by any chance? Okay, great.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica Greiff: It's gonna make a lot of things easier for me. So, at the end it's a fly mask the horse has that bright green fluorescent mask on his face. So it's called a fly mask. It's mesh and it's so to help keep flies out of horses eyes and ears.
Jeremy Schumacher: Okay.
Jessica Greiff: It's completely through and it's the number one thing people ask of my God, is that horse blindfolded? No So after that movie came out I posted on this movie group that I'm in. I'm like, hey just had a curiosity. I'm sure this is everybody's first time seeing this thing. What do you think that thing is in real life And I swear to God Jeremy to a man all the dude said is it blindfolds? You can completely control the horse so you can have the horse completely under your control. and I swear to God it felt so*** Sinister to me and I went back and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jessica Greiff: I was talking to my co-workers and we were talking about how much
Jessica Greiff: Horseback riding is a partnership and that people don't seem to understand that of you're constantly learning how to communicate more effectively with your horse and learning how like you said biofeedback affects your horse. I have my kids whenever you're sitting on something stable, but your hands under your tailbone under your butt bones, not your tail bones, but your hip bones and shift back and forth a little bit and feel how much you can feel the weight shift on your hands and then think about how that goes down into a horse. So even if you just shift your body a little bit like this, they can feel that …
Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm
Jessica Greiff: if you've ever had a backpack where one strap is too short and you're just like, I hate this they can feel all of those things. And so it's always learning how to most effectively communicate with your horse. so you're breaking down any communication barrier and I will tell you I have the pleasure of riding horses that you just connect to it it feels like I think this thing and it's rare, but you…
00:35:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jessica Greiff: and it requires, of course a lot of training a lot of all that stuff and just serendipity. all that's to say is I found the dudes responds to that really chilling and kind of it flustered a conversation with my coworkers about why it is that girls are so crazy about horses and That sort of Need for me. I guess it's two different questions. But do you have any insight?
Jeremy Schumacher: I'm No,…
Jessica Greiff: I mean You can say no, this is dumb Jess. Let's move on.
Jeremy Schumacher: no, it's an interesting question. I'm shooting from the hip a little bit. I think a couple of things because I think a lot of it is socialization. So you think in terms of Unicorns and magical experiences and being a princess and getting a castle and a lot of that stuff is geared towards females. or people who are socialized as girls and so I think there's an awareness of something like a horse growing up and then I think for dudes
Jeremy Schumacher: Or male identifying people like Cowboys. And like I saw I have a friend…
Jessica Greiff: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: who worked on a ranch and life-changing experience. he loved it. He went out to New Mexico or somewhere like that and it just lived in the desert for three years working on this horse ranch so he loves horses. He walks like he saddle so are all the time it's just a hilarious fit as a human being for him that he's so into horses, but I think again it's wallpaper growing up was a cowboy scene so I think it's that socialization of maybe connecting to a horse or having Magical experience a unicorn or your own personal animal versus I'm gonna go. He'll Indians and take their lands like that. There is a imperialistic quality. That's kind of gross about the cowboy Mythos.
Jessica Greiff: Totally and that's something I try to be cognizant of because honestly this is one of the dorky are things about me. I love to talk about western saddles. they're just my favorite piece of technology. I find them fascinating. They haven't functionally changed and 200 years. They just got it in one. and so when talk I love to talk about the function of the saddle,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Jessica Greiff: especially with quarter horses and the way those two debride and the saddle and the equipment and the sort of American b** thing all came together to form this Cowboy culture as we know it I find fascinating…
Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm
Jessica Greiff: but I'm also keenly aware that it's like being a fan of Vikings over the bad guys and everything like you can't you they're always doing bad, but
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: one And two then I think a lot of the socialization is based on bad science. So The whole Alpha Beta thing like that's incorrect.
Jessica Greiff: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: That isn't a how wolf packs work and…
Jessica Greiff: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: and so that's factually incorrect and there's no overlap between wolf socializing and human socializing. So even if it had been accurate which we know definitively that is not how wolves socialize there is no correlation to
Jeremy Schumacher: Kind of the way that humans. yeah, and…
Jessica Greiff: humans aren't impacts Okay,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Right that and…
Jessica Greiff: because different than a village.
Jeremy Schumacher: I look at things like Jordan Peterson is the bane of my existence in a lot of ways as a therapist.
Jessica Greiff: if everybody's
Jeremy Schumacher: needs no interaction with horses I got where my wife and I got married her parents her dad and stepmom live out in the country now in Michigan around nothing and they have Clydesdales down the road and that was the first time I'd ever been up close and in person was before I got married because
Jessica Greiff: I feel sorry you huge.
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, I'm six foot three. I'm a big dude and I was dang like that's a large animal. it is intimidating to walk up to one.
Jessica Greiff: Yeah, they're big. yeah, it really is and especially they're probably very gentle but they step one foot wrong,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jessica Greiff: and your foot's got like it's
Jeremy Schumacher: and you give them an apple and they just absorb the whole thing and…
Jessica Greiff: Yeah good.
Jeremy Schumacher: it's like this is a large Creature if I wanted to bite my hand it would go away
Jessica Greiff: And they love it. It's very annoying. I really like this idea. I've been thinking of girls or fantasizing you kind of touch around about an animal companion a special relationship whereas boys. Maybe it was more like a tool to an end like the way you feel about a car of
00:40:00
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jessica Greiff: It's not about the personality. I guess it just like girls really want to bond with animals.
Jeremy Schumacher: I'm a bit of a nerd so thinking of The Witcher …
Jessica Greiff: We all want to be Snow White.
Jeremy Schumacher: his relationship with roach.
Jessica Greiff: Sure.
Jeremy Schumacher: His horse is a big selling point. I've not played the Dead Redemption games, but I know you have a horse throughout it so I think I'm sure it's there.
Jessica Greiff: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Think just in general I would imagine boys are getting socialized from a younger age to not be relational and to not be in touch with their emotions. So even thinking of a companion is I don't know it's almost in an isolation like me in this horse are gonna go out and live in the desert and never see anyone again. It's not like this is how I have functional relationships with everyone in my
Jessica Greiff: My God, they're Sidebar, there was some horse drama on tiktok, which I am not on tiktok.
Jeremy Schumacher: If okay.
Jessica Greiff: But this deep just some random dude from Texas was like, I'm gonna buy a horse and ride to Seattle or something like that and bought this horse who was not in shape. The guy was not a writer. The guy had no idea what the f*** he was doing or talking about. We're gonna just literally was like Cowboys do it. I can just get on a horse and everything will be fine and just people are Panicking for and it's been resolved by now. I'm sure I think it was a year ago, but it was just some white dude who didn't know what the f*** he was talking about and just thought you'd swing on a horse and putting saddle and pack a sack lunch and didn't bring a backup horse didn't have a farrier check didn't do a vet check didn't do pack enough food for the horse just as soon …
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jessica Greiff: we'll just eat the food or eat the grass It's this little treaty. It's an instinctive treating anything. That is not. That you perceive as below you as an object. Right, that's another touring woman.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jessica Greiff: And so the tree horses how they treat cars. you'll just do the thing you're supposed to do. You'll be fine. I'm gonna do.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and I think too the general misunderstanding the domestication. So a lot of people there they're interactions with Wildlife. I'll put that in quotes are there house cats or…
Jessica Greiff: one
Jeremy Schumacher: their dogs and the domestication process that has happened over Millennia for those animals to act the way they act versus something like a lizard you can have a lizard as a pet, but you don't bond with it the same way you can but it's different and something like a horse.
Jessica Greiff: probably one way bonding
Jeremy Schumacher: where I think it's a total lack of knowledge and I think for growing up in a city just the lack of awareness around how you need to respect Wildlife we're so removed from Forces of nature tornado came through…
Jessica Greiff: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: but it didn't hit our house. So
Jeremy Schumacher: Back to capitalism. I'm still working …
Jessica Greiff: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: there is no a seasonal awareness it's snowing. We're not hibernating. We're just have to leave earlier so we can be traffic it's such a disconnect from I think nature and some of the natural processes.
Jessica Greiff: You know what? I was just thinking about yesterday. So at the barn I teach lessons on Fridays, but most days I do what we call animal care, which is basically just managing the barn. so yesterday my shift was 7 AM to 4 pm and I had to so we have twenty one, two, three twenty three horses and then a couple ponies and Minis. some sheep chickens geese a couple other animals So I have to go in the morning and you feed all the horses and that's the grass head of alfalfa. Hey, they have grains and supplements and things like that that need to be weighed medications that need to be administered. So we have one horse. Yes, you get his meds 30 minutes before he eats so you have to inject his little medicine's mouth.
Jessica Greiff: so it's a long day and I am busy from the moment. I step foot on the barn to the moment I leave and I love it because it is all manual labor. It's just all right. These stalls need to be clean. These horses need to be turned out. Those horses need to be brought in we're doing it's just check off the next signal list and all of a sudden eight hours has gone by and I'm tired and happy and whatever but all that's to say is I was thinking the other day. I was cleaning out some paddocks and I was thinking s***, the ground is gonna freeze soon. We have to start thinking about this and it just got me thinking about especially city people and certainly myself when I'm not working on the barn.
00:45:00
Jessica Greiff: We don't change that much with this Seasons, obviously what people watch more TV in the winter and they gain five pounds and eat soup or whatever but realistically the activities we do. Aren't necessarily whether dependent, people go to the gym whatever. and it's very interesting and cool to be part of A space that has to cycle through every season's very meaningfully. So I told it Fly masks. This past week. I was washing all of those so they can be stored for the winter because obviously no flies in the winter. Now we're gonna pull out the blankets for the winter and there's something really satisfying about It is November here are the things that have to be done every November.
Jessica Greiff: And I think some people might see that is. a trap or a sort of live in the state of Groundhogs Day thing. I find it incredibly soothing of The same way there's something soothing about it's strawberry season now like it's pumpkin season. Now, there's something really nice to Mark time. Especially I'm in Westerner. I've always lived in the midwest or in Montana. So I've never lived in a place without seasons for more than a year. And I don't think I would like that or…
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jessica Greiff: handle it. because I think it would feel like marching in a straight line forever and ever as opposed to a cyclical thing of now it's time to do this now. It's time to plant it's time to reap, I'll write a Beach Boys song about it.
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jessica Greiff: Birds Beach Boys, who's what song? Is that at time to wake up attended?
Jeremy Schumacher: that is the birds Think so.
Jessica Greiff: The birds Do you have bully listeners or…
Jeremy Schumacher: It's not the Beach Boys.
Jessica Greiff: they're gonna bully me if I get that wrong?
Jeremy Schumacher: I don't think so. No, I'll be excited. If I get extra listeners, even if they're coming just to bully you but no I mean, this is a fantastic segue watch this ADHD brains find each other and then we connect really well.
Jessica Greiff: Yay.
Jeremy Schumacher: I do think I also am a midwesterner. I live in Milwaukee and the seasons and also have ADHD. So I think there's a neurodivergent component too in the seasons changing,…
Jessica Greiff: that's interesting.
Jeremy Schumacher: but I think In our modern society, we're very disconnected from nature and we're very disconnected from our bodies. And so,…
Jessica Greiff: mmm
Jeremy Schumacher: things like yoga things like therapeutic horse riding things these things get us back in touch with our body that is considered healing for a lot of people but that should be the default living in a concrete jungle and…
Jessica Greiff: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: never thinking about what's going into your body or putting processed foods. that's all very very unnatural.
Jeremy Schumacher: Segway to one of your other jobs I think too some of the puritanical basis of our countries founding plays into that too. the religious the Puritans, the guy who founded the state of Pennsylvania made oatmeal be as Bland as possible because he thought spicy food gave you impure thoughts like the.
Jessica Greiff: Is that the Kellogg story? Alex guy, yeah, so people would stop masturbating. He invented Corn Flakes or something like that.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I don't know what was going on with his digestive system that he thought inappropriate thoughts so I think there's this disconnect too. and that segue is then into you are the host of the friendly atheist podcast and you get to spend all this time a lot of time talking about…
Jessica Greiff: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: how the religious right is awful for everyone whether you're religious or not.
Jessica Greiff: yeah, it's interesting. this show we've been doing now for we just celebrated 500 episodes. We've been doing for almost 10 years.
Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm
Jessica Greiff: So much has changed over 10 years. And now we've gotten to a point where I am completely disconnected from the news. I don't follow any news s*** on any social media. I don't Push alerts. I don't seek out the news because I can't anymore and I live in a happy little bubble for six days and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jessica Greiff: 12 hours and then haven't comes over and reads all the worst parts of the news and shatters my fragile mental health for another week. But yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, so One of my specialties is religious trauma. and…
Jessica Greiff: Thanks.
Jeremy Schumacher: I love the podcast. I was raised Evangelical fundamentalist basically in a nice little cult that exists and in Milwaukee pretty much.
Jessica Greiff: There's a rocky call too. I don't know about that.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, it checks a lot of box, I talked about mainstream Christianity as a cult. but it's the podcast I love because it's a balance between Hemet who's very Process-based and kind of goes Point by point and here's the news and then you're kind of like the emotional response to all of this…
00:50:00
Jessica Greiff: the Chaos Agent
Jeremy Schumacher: which is what the f*** are we doing here? And as somebody who is raised in it, That's very genuine and I wasn't allowed to feel that while I was religious and now I can be also equally offended and bothered by it. So I love kind of the dynamic you guys have developed in So…
Jessica Greiff: Thank you.
Jeremy Schumacher: what the f*** of it all?
Jessica Greiff: yeah, it's a strong bummer. It's been weird. So I've been with the friendly atheist brand since 2012 and I think back to the stuff. I was writing about them and it was obviously the election it was the woman's body has a whole way of shutting that thing down by what's his face. It was Mitt Romney and it was the A thing those were sort of the big headline. stories and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Jessica Greiff: truly like hearkening back to a time when A being homophobic was like the peak of our problems is the Rose Colored Glasses aren't tens. It's
Jeremy Schumacher: What a simpler time.
Jessica Greiff: True even once it's today saying. I understand what woman's value as a whole way of shutting that down if it's a legitimate rape or whatever. even like that if somebody said that right now it wouldn't even Make a new cycle. It's just what people are kind of saying so.
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jessica Greiff: so I think the problem I'm having right now is a
Jessica Greiff: Okay, I have learned a lot about myself recently. And one of the things that I find to be extremely triggering is when I watch people behave in a way That I cannot understand the motivation behind it makes no sense to me. So I was watching there's a show called bad sisters on Apple TV,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm
Jessica Greiff: and It doesn't matter. What's that? But there is an insurance detective guy who's trying to get to the bottom of this death. But there is nothing for him to grab onto but he keeps pursuing it even with For no reason and I found it so agitating because it was just like that's not a person. Should act that's not how a person would respond to this situation when you're lined up with this set of facts. No person in the universe would go to the right. Everybody else would go to the left. So I have a really really hard time watching people behave. in a way that I find to be not only contrary to my values but contrary to just
Jessica Greiff: The way the world works or the way, humans are I just find agitating because I really want to understand things. I really really try to understand things.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jessica Greiff: I try to put myself in this woman genuinely believes in our heart of hearts that every sperm and egg combination is a sweet baby with a whole last personality and is gonna cure cancer like the Jen. Okay fine. I can put myself in that position because while I do not agree with it, I understand what she's using to make this decision.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jessica Greiff: when I watch people the Supreme Court just make b** up. with the Kennedy ruling particularly brought the receipts and people just Ignore it just would not acknowledge. it's like watching people in a movie. And you're like don't go behind that door. There's a murderer behind that. They're like…
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jessica Greiff: what human being would do this thing and yet they are doing them and I find it so troubling and agitating Because it's unpredictable because that means it's completely whatever they decide is.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jessica Greiff: The next big bad is whatever it is. And there's nothing to be done because you cannot logic somebody out of something they didn't watch themselves.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and it's so fascinating. I kept moving more and more liberal and more and more Progressive while I was still a Christian until I was like wait. I just not a Christian is the thing…
00:55:00
Jessica Greiff: and
Jeremy Schumacher: but it's fascinating. I just wrote really probably the longest blog I've ever written about Mike Johnson. Who's the new Speaker of the House his wife and her batshit crazy therapy that she did and As I'm a therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: Magic exists but only for your special chosen people it's not so crazy to use old outdated medicine and think that's totally fine. you're living your life off of old outdated religious writing but there is that voice of reason and so your perspective what not being raised religious or not being particularly fundamentalists so fascinating coming out of his fascinating but then hearing from somebody who didn't grow up in it and what makes any sense. there's no frame of reference where this makes sense. It is just cult mind control Behavior.
Jessica Greiff: hey, yeah, it actually is and I say I'm culturally Catholic. My family large was Catholic, but I think I was baptized because my grandmother threatened to kidnap me and my brother unless we were baptized so we're baptized. Yeah,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Nice the ends Justified the means classic Christianity.
Jessica Greiff: exactly. my god. And my parents are so shocked when I told him I was an atheist. I you told me that Granny was gonna kidnap me and you told me CCD sucks. what did you think was gonna happen? But …
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jessica Greiff: so I know white Catholic s*** also.
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jessica Greiff: Also, I am in a lot of ways woefully naive about how a lot of mainstream Christianity functions because I grew up in a very Catholic area so To me could felt like Catholic and Christian were interchangeable. I did not understand that there was a distinction between them until I was in college…
Jeremy Schumacher: Okay.
Jessica Greiff: because it just didn't come up. I went to whatever church I was supposed to go to for that wedding or that funeral and I didn't discriminate against them and they were mostly Catholic and they all had the guy in the dress and it was echoey and intimidating and scary and I didn't like it but
Jessica Greiff: so I am coming into a lot of this stuff completely. fresh Because I'm not carrying around the burden of having to unlearn religious s***. I have to unlearn a lot of misogyny and I have to unlearn a lot of racism and…
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jessica Greiff: I have to unlearn a lot but I am not having to step out from the veil of religion and I can more or less have an understanding of the morality of something as just disengaged from what the Bible would say is moral, right? So yeah,…
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jessica Greiff: so to me there's weird gut responses that you had even when you don't actually agree with it anymore or whatever you just have that and I don't have to have that of this person and this person are moving in together. no, it's fine. those are things I did not have to overcome.
Jeremy Schumacher: right Yeah.
Jessica Greiff: And also it lets me be a lot meaner about religion because I don't have anybody I'm worried is gonna yell at me at Christmas.
Jeremy Schumacher: Which is helpful, I think too. I mean it highlights how the religious right affects everybody like this. These are not religious issues anymore. this person is taking their magic book of spells and trying to pass laws based on it and that affects you who is raised culturally Catholic but is an atheist now it's not It's not just doctrinal for biblical Scholars to debate. It is problematic for Society at Large.
Jessica Greiff: Mm- Yeah, great.
Jeremy Schumacher: So there's been a podcast about mental health. let's talk a little bit obviously going to the bar and it's good for Obviously, you've made enough cultural references. I think for people to know that there's a recreational component to consuming media, but I'm curious,…
Jessica Greiff: That is the dorkiest thing.
Jeremy Schumacher:
Jessica Greiff: I have ever heard a person say there's a recreational component of consuming media. Are you out of your mind?
Jeremy Schumacher: I thought that was a nice way to say you watch a lot of shows and movies.
01:00:00
Jessica Greiff: I just have never heard somebody medicinalized. That's so hard. Yeah. Yeah,…
Jeremy Schumacher: okay,…
Jessica Greiff: I watch a lot of TV.
Jeremy Schumacher: but It's good because I talk about this a lot in therapy mindlessly watching TV gives you minimal benefit. If your intentional with saying Survivor is on a Mondays and that's our show we're make time we're gonna make a pizza. We're gonna do a whole thing. We had some intention to it.
Jessica Greiff: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: You can actually get a bigger mental health benefit from it, but you talk about taking a break from news and some of that stuff so how do you navigate all this secondary trauma you're taking in from the podcast that you're at host of and what do you do to kind of mellow out and balance that throughout the week?
Jessica Greiff: God I mean hey and we've spoken a little bit. the month of October was among the worst months of my entire life. So I've been doing a lot so my therapist
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jessica Greiff: I was talking to her years ago because I started seeing her because I was depressed and I hate my job and felt trapped. and the two I will say my therapist.
Jessica Greiff:
Jessica Greiff: without her but one of the things she taught me that I Rely on almost every day is using what I want to watch or read or eat or as a gage of how I'm doing so if I Find myself retreating into rewatching Community for the fourth time it's November now. So zero times this month four times last month. and if I finish that and The prospect of trying to figure out something else to watch or do is so overwhelming. I just started again because any decision that I make feels terrible so,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Jessica Greiff: we're watching stuff. I'm reading some romance novels that I love because For me reading is with my ADHD readings one of the few times. I'm actually fully focused because It really is maybe the only time I think that's…
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jessica Greiff: why I like to do it so much it's really hard for me to shut off my brain. I'm watching TV and also, my God, I haven't been listening for the last 30 seconds or whatever. so reading familiar stuff is really really helpful for me and then on the other side of it when I'm starting to seek out something new. It's sort of a signal to myself All right. I'm sort of coming around. I'm getting out of this funk in this malays and moving forward so That's a really nice thing to do.
Jessica Greiff: I don't know. I've been working on turning off my brain a lot because it just constantly constantly and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jessica Greiff: so oftentimes I will play a little iPad video game and have community on or something at the same time just so It's almost a sound back of my brain is occupied. It's processing things. So I don't have time to do some b*** in the background and I can just rest. but I try to be very aware of what is bringing me happiness and what isn't and things like that and kind of being I just let myself be indulgent when I need it. but yeah,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Jessica Greiff: so those are my main things the things I used to play music and I used to cross stitch and I used to do all these things and I just One by one put them down because everything felt hard and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jessica Greiff: everything. I had to work at felt like overwhelming..
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. a lot of good stuff in there, I think obviously having a therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: He's being needy.
Jessica Greiff: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: This is Baskerville.
Jessica Greiff: Okay you hi askarville.
Jeremy Schumacher: You're gonna get cut in the podcast. Yeah, he's a little hellhound.
Jessica Greiff: Are you a hound?
01:05:00
Jeremy Schumacher: That's his name. All…
Jessica Greiff: Tonight's basketball.
Jeremy Schumacher: go on.
Jessica Greiff: What's the ending of that? Did they not exist or something? They're like a hallucination a different one.
Jeremy Schumacher: It was like a large dog that was being. They put phosphorian stuff on its eyes and…
Jessica Greiff: That's right.
Jeremy Schumacher: just general and Annabelle abuse. He's not abused.
Jessica Greiff:
Jeremy Schumacher: He's wildly spoiled. He's turned well.
Jessica Greiff: I can hear my dog something upstairs. So she might make an appearance in a sec.
Jeremy Schumacher: So what you put your body is obviously very important and then just paying attention when those things stop working or your ADHD brain decides like it's done with a hobby it's hard to get that back sometimes and…
Jessica Greiff: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: just being like, all right. what am I doing instead because my brain wants something new and novel so
Jessica Greiff: Is that a virtue of ADHD of that sort of deeply intense and that else and I'm never gonna do this thing again? Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: That happens with hobbies that happens with food. I don't know if you have that with food. So a lot of my sensory issues are.
Jessica Greiff: Holland your percent with food.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and I have a five year old who almost assured they also has ADHD. I think he's had Honey Bunches of oats cereal for 95% of his meals the past three months, so
Jessica Greiff: I so feel that in such a real way. It's so strange and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jessica Greiff: it's really hard to explain to your partner why it's like, I'm actually done with this thing now that I did eat every day for the last year, but I'm never gonna touch it again. Bye.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, my wife will be like, hey, we still have that huge thing from Costco that you were super into and yeah, it's gonna sit in our freezer for two more years…
Jessica Greiff: next attack
Jeremy Schumacher: until I throw it out Don't like food waste…
Jessica Greiff: No, it's the worst. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: but also a neurodivergent. So yeah, I think there's a lot of fascinating things around just that topic. I obviously nerd out about the neurotive virgins and I'm fascinated. I love animals and dogs specifically. So I love animal assisted therapy. But the horse stuff's new for me. So this has been a learning experience for me. And there's so much like that. My brain fired on is I wonder what the science behind that is. I wonder who's researching that.
Jessica Greiff: Truly if you're in the Chicago line area, you're more than welcome to come visit. it's like 294 and 955. it's only like anybody who's listening or…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Jessica Greiff: who's in the area that the properties open to the public we've Got baby goats, we just got a baby horse.** best. But yeah people bring their kids and in look at the sheep and watch these bully each other with many donks many donkeys.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jessica Greiff: They're the best but I
Jeremy Schumacher: I did see a miniature horse recently I went to a eating disorder event, and they had a miniature therapy horse on site.
Jessica Greiff: I talk to you a little bit about horses and eating disorders just like a tiny bit. So look.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jessica Greiff: The same thing. I've never struggled with an eating disorder. I have had struggle with weight on and So feeding so I am in charge every day of feeding some days of feeding a lot of horses and I said, we have big guy named Prince. He's Half Percheron, he's a big gentleman. His hooves are like this. And then we have little tiny ponies that are as big as a Irish Wolfhound or biggest one of your great gains.
Jessica Greiff: Literally, I'm thinking of two horses who are diametrically opposed and they eat the same amount of food, and he probably outweighs her by 800 pounds. and there is something very interesting and
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Jessica Greiff: Rewarding isn't the right word. I can't satisfying maybe of realizing that Horses bodies and by extension our bodies are animals bodies. They do it is not calories in versus calories out. It is just not that simple because when you're looking at a pony…
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jessica Greiff: who barely works and she's getting the same amount of food as a giant horse who works all the time. And neither of them are over underweight. They're both healthy and happy. to me, it is a reminder that things are not that simple that our bodies are so much more complicated than anybody can understand because if
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jessica Greiff: It just seen the changes of horse can make over a week if they've gotten one extra flake of Hayden. They're supposed to your one look you can see the changes in their bodies and year when you start thinking about food as something that's nurturing and an additive and not something that you have to be restrictive of to me. It's kind of really helped me Focus my attention to how people eat and all that stuff in a way. I had not ever really thought about and I read something similar about Blair brave for men is a woman who does dog sledding and she did a whole list kind of about the same thing of these dogs are all from the same litter they all do the same thing every single day. This don't mean six times more food than this dog. That's just bodies. That's just how they do. but
01:10:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah, and I used to work in higher ed. And so I would write letters for people to have their emotional support animal on campus Because a animal-free campus but somebody being in charge of feeding their bunny the way that you relate to your dependent eating versus the way that you process your own thought process around your body and your intake is different and so having that different frame of references validating like that experience kind of loosens up the way. Your brain processes which really helpful.
Jessica Greiff: That's so good because I'm just thinking of and so acts like this when she's hungry and human beings are just like that. why is this horse doing this?
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jessica Greiff: It's cold that horse hates the cold weather like We're and personally I can extend more grace to a horse who is just reacting to its stimuli the way any of us are I can extend Grace to that horse, but not to like myself when it's cold and crank. I get it together just like yeah,…
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jessica Greiff: it gives you a little more space what around the last thing I assume you have to go but
Jeremy Schumacher: I'm good. I record on days when I have time.
Jessica Greiff: A perfect tenant is coming over 20 minutes. So when he gets here, I'll stop especially when I have my Riders ride their back, which is a whole different sensory experience then run with the saddle it is you can feel their muscles move under you in a way that is Unlike anything most people really experience, but one thing I have my kids do especially if they're feeling tense. I get them on their horse and I haven't go stand somewhere and close their eyes. And they can open their eyes when they can feel their horse breathing under them. Because you can feel it fairly easily,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm
Jessica Greiff: but you have to be really quiet and really calm.
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Jessica Greiff: and so when they're seeking that out, they naturally just quieting in their body and then they physically are sort of in a better place to proceed with the lesson and that you We're not naturally searching for stimuli under our thighs or butt right But when you're riding a horse,…
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jessica Greiff: you have to be physically engaged with everything and your balance has to be your own. You can't be too dependent on your horse because if that horse trips and you're leaning forward you're going off. It's almost couple skating of you have a really important Bond and are reliant on each other. But you each have your own roles and both of you have to perform those roles. And yeah and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jessica Greiff: another thing about horses is that they instinctively look for a leader. And that's basically why humans can quote control horses is because as we kind of talked about earlier the size of the animal and when we talk about quote unquote alpha males jerk off motion. They act like the biggest toughest.
Jessica Greiff: Wolf or whatever nightmare they have is the one in charge when anybody who's worked with any kind of herd animal knows that that is not how it works. We have a tiny pony Blossom and she'll kick oil's ass she doesn't give a s***. So our big horse. he's a bully actually that wasn't a good example, but our biggest horses are not the ones who are in charge. It's the ones…
Jeremy Schumacher: here, right
Jessica Greiff: who have the leadership Drive of what to be a head mayor and it's usually the Mayors who are in charge of female horse. And so when you're interacting with horses you are going with an energy like hey, I'm in charge and we are just fooling them into thinking that we're bigger than them. That's all it is. We were fooling them to thinking that we can pick their ass and we super can't and God blessings if they test us ever but that's another thing. I wonder going back to white girls are interested in horses. You are controlling a very large animal, but you're not doing it by muscling it around you're doing it by connecting with it.
Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm
Jessica Greiff: Forming a partnership deciding together you're going to move forward because …
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jessica Greiff: if I'm walking a horse and I say walk on and he doesn't move. It's because he doesn't take me seriously later. He doesn't think I'm gonna Protect him when push comes to shove so you have to assert yourself later. It's a very fake it till you make it kind of thing of like you have to walk up to a horse with confidence and There's a woman who's working with a horse.
01:15:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Jessica Greiff: He's the horses off chart smart, and she's kind of timid and she's had trouble with him trying to jerk her around and do this that or the other and I said I was walking behind her and I said relax your arm that you're holding the lead rope on shoulders back. And walk like you're the boss of this place and they will respect it and as genuinely just yesterday saying this horse Walter he drags everybody into the grass so he's hungry. He wants to go eat and he's gigantic. He's never once tried that with me ever. None of the horses do because I have asserted myself as quote unquote the alpha and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Jessica Greiff: so they just don't f*** with me. They know that they can't get away with whatever b******* they want to get away. It's like a babysitter versus your mom. I can do whatever the f***. Mom's home. She's gonna let me do anything cool. and they just don't test me and…
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jessica Greiff: it's Until you take a step back and kind of realize when I walk around the barn the horses are constantly calling to me because when they see me, they're like that b**** has food and I want her here. And so all the sudden I am a focus point for the horses because they recognize me as the provider of food and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Jessica Greiff: are even less likely to f*** with me because I am that person to them now. And it's weird politics I'm like the lowest scale. what I mean of this horse can't go near that horse because they have this whole little subculture that they're working out. Hoof. Sorry,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jessica Greiff: I just love talking about horses.
Jeremy Schumacher: This one so talking about crossing state lines and needing to have some of That stuff and I'm sure all the work that goes into funding it and getting grants and all that stuff. I'm sure as a whole separate and much less exciting topic.
Jessica Greiff: That would be an off my conversation because yeah funding is I make minimum wage doing what I do. I have to have another job in addition to the podcast so I can afford the expensive habit of working at a therapeutic Barn there's a lot of sacrifices that have to be made to do this and…
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yeah.
Jessica Greiff: I love it,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jessica Greiff: but I wish I could make. Enough money to live doing the job that I'm doing, but that's Socialism or whatever.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I married to An Early Childhood educator. So I get that we do not as a society take care of people…
Jessica Greiff: Also, okay,
Jeremy Schumacher: who are taking care of other people.
Jessica Greiff: I don't know if it's the older I get watching the world unfold but I am getting angry and angry about angrier about what work we value in this country because do you think you bring more good to the world or…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jessica Greiff: a f****** hedge fund investor does you think I am more vital to somebody's like Society or…
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jessica Greiff: the CFO of whatever like Whatever.
Jeremy Schumacher: right Yeah. we
Jessica Greiff: It's frustrating because the work we do is hard and emotionally taxing and valuable with a capital V. And nobody gives a s***.
Jeremy Schumacher: right Yeah, that's why I have a podcast called your therapist needs therapy. But you…
Jessica Greiff: Uh-huh.
Jeremy Schumacher: it's fascinating it. it's a separate topic. Hopefully it is getting better because I do think the religious right is shrinking. It's just getting more extreme all that happens as everybody is leaving church. But yeah, there might need to be like a revolution or something that happens because covid showed us we need garbage man. We need nurses. We need teachers. We don't need any of this other b*******.
Jessica Greiff: Things people have been learning that lesson. And ignoring it for 50 years,…
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jessica Greiff: right? What was the sanitation strike in New York was that 70s? the city** down.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah, We are saying workers strike more often, there's a healthcare strike that was going on at California that got sorted after two days which is like they got everything they wanted though. The auto unions got new contracts. So
Jessica Greiff: Yeah, I did the writers.
Jeremy Schumacher: I try and be optimistic. I do like you have to take breaks. The Supreme Court is especially bothersome for me. So, I have to take my breaks and step away from it and doing religious trauma that I'm working with people who not only understand the concept but have been victims of abuse and in these various ways, so
01:20:00
Jeremy Schumacher: I should probably.
Jessica Greiff: It's good,…
Jessica Greiff: I guess.
Jeremy Schumacher: I should probably find a horse that I can…
Jeremy Schumacher: but I can bond with and learn how to groom and all that stuff.
Jessica Greiff: We're in Milwaukee area.
Jeremy Schumacher: I am on the very north side of Milwaukee. So I know there's a barn up in Mequon,…
Jessica Greiff:
Jeremy Schumacher: which is a very in conversation for people who are familiar with. Urban Midwest
Jessica Greiff:
Jessica Greiff: We didn't get to talk much about it. But I'm in the Wisconsin area a ton looking at horses because that's your kind of in. therapeutic course about horse country in general Dodgeville is a huge horse Hub and…
Jeremy Schumacher: sure.
Jessica Greiff: near Madison. it doesn't matter not important, but truly if you are democratulated, we're rude off 294.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jessica Greiff: It's very easy to get to and you've got my contact information. You should come down and see what's all about.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yes for same I mean if you're driving through Milwaukee, it's grab a drink or coffee or…
Jessica Greiff: Yeah. your friends Just my God me see that.
Jeremy Schumacher: we can Talk about dogs meeting you can meet the creatures? I saw a fluffy white tail go by earlier.
Jessica Greiff: Can you see daddy? there she is.
Jessica Greiff: right She's such again.
Jeremy Schumacher: She's passed up.
Jessica Greiff: Hi.
Jeremy Schumacher: Jessica this has been fantastic I have a lot of guests…
Jessica Greiff:
Jeremy Schumacher: who have ADHD. I think I say neurodivergent brains find each other. So I think that keeps happening people want to find out more about the Hansen Center people want to find out more about the work. do people want to find you with the friendly atheist. Where did they go? what are we promoting?
Jessica Greiff: And it's such a hard question to answer because it used to be Twitter, but I haven't and…
Jeremy Schumacher: As a successful,…
Jessica Greiff: there.
Jeremy Schumacher: .
Jessica Greiff: listen if you are interested in learning about therapeutic writing during the family atheist group on Facebook or honestly the Hampton Center has a Facebook group if you want to learn about it. if even here's what I will say, this is what I want to come up. Even if you have no experience with horses and don't know the back from the front. your skills and your Humanity are needed in these therapeutic writing centers. It is as beneficial to the volunteers as it is to our Riders. if you we have one volunteer who comes in once a week sweeps the aisle and please that's it. And we adore her because that I'll need swept every single day. So if you want to get involved if you're looking for a hobby if you want to be outside a little bit more want to touch grass as it were.
Jessica Greiff: Look into volunteering with your local therapeutic Writing Center or something or something similar. it's really gratifying you learn a ton horse. People are out of their entire mind so, buyer beware, but A wonderful community and accepting and kind and gentle and a nice place to spend a day.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, for sure and we'll have links to those Facebook groups and we'll have links to the podcast down in the show notes. Just this has been fantastic. Thanks for joining me today.
Jessica Greiff: Thank you, Jeremy. Sorry I canceled so many times.
Jeremy Schumacher: It's good. jokes we've rescheduled a couple times and I said what sort of podcast hosts would I be about mental health. If I didn't say, hey, take care of your mental health first, we'll record. It's a podcast who cares. So yes,…
Jessica Greiff: Yes, yes.
Jeremy Schumacher: and thank you to all the wonderful listeners. You can find all my stuff at Wellness with jeremy.com, and we'll be back next week with another new episode. Take care everyone.
Jessica Greiff: Thanks, Jeremy.
Meeting ended after 01:23:39 👋