Your Therapist Needs Therapy 32 - Making Peace with Your Religious Past with Hannah Brents

This week Jeremy is joined by the theology therapist, Hannah Brents! Hannah and Jeremy talk about the false dichotomy of religious or atheist, how the deconstruction process looks different the longer you’ve been out of organized religion, and how to build community after leaving the church. 

Hannah has a great course we talk about, check that out here! And follow her on Instagram, she posts a ton of great content.

All of Jeremy’s practice info and various media endeavors can be found at Wellness with Jer.

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Podcasts about therapy do not replace actual therapy, and listening to a podcast about therapy does not signify a therapeutic relationship. 

If you or someone you know is in crisis please call or text the nationwide crisis line at 988, or text HELLO to 741741. The Trevor Project has a crisis line for LGBTQ+ young people that can be reached by texting 678678. 

Transcript

Your Therapist Needs Therapy - Hannah Brents (2023-11-06 10:05 GMT-6) - Transcript

Attendees

Hannah Brents, Jeremy Schumacher

Transcript

This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it was created.

Jeremy Schumacher: Hello and welcome to another episode of your therapist needs therapy the podcast word mental health professionals talk about their own mental Wellness Journeys and how they navigate staying mentally. while working in mental health field today. I am joined by ah brents Hannah. Thanks for joining me today.

Hannah Brents: Yeah, I'm super excited to be here.

Jeremy Schumacher: You are the theology therapist. I will talk about that and…

Hannah Brents: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: and get into that but I want to start with my normal question, which is always how did you get into the mental health field? What kind of brought you here?

Hannah Brents: Yeah, so I had initially rejected any recommendation or push in the direction of psychology, but I went to get my Master's Degree in Divinity and during that time. I was on a travel seminar in Israel Palestine and realize there were some other dual degree students there between religion and social work and I just realized I'm gonna need a job soon. And this feels the exact Perfect Blend of my head meets heart and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Hannah Brents: so it was really the concrete implementation of a lot of the sort of philosophical ethical work that I've been doing up to that point.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and was psychology kind of that moment sociology kind of that this makes sense, or was that something that you've been interested in? Was that something that was shunned growing up? I know for me Psychology was not something that was promoted being raised in a high control religion.

Hannah Brents: Yeah, so I wasn' at least within my nuclear family. It wasn't Shawn by any means but it just wasn't really talked about which and talk about it. ironically so I went to get my bachelor's degree in religion and that was a because I identifies a woman and so the nudge was to go into psychology teaching which was way more like cool or culture then doing religion. part of my deconstruction and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Hannah Brents: healing process was initially being like you're all trying to get me to do this thing. Hell no and then years later coming back around and realizing It was actually what I wanted to do.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, so you had a master's Divinity and got a master's in social work then too or Phil and give us the rest of the history there.

Hannah Brents: yeah, so Yeah, yeah, so I got a masters in social work and I was in the process of getting a master's in Divinity, but I did not want to be in school that much longer. So I switched to get around through theological studies.

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Hannah Brents: So that's sort of a little bit of a technical thing. And the only thing that really changed is one year of

Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, yeah, then what was your introduction into the field kind of Where'd you start out working and…

Hannah Brents: school, yeah, and Yeah,…

Jeremy Schumacher: and give us some of that history if you don't mind.

Hannah Brents: totally. So my introduction I think was quite different. Maybe not to some of the other people like other therapist.

Hannah Brents: needs Severe and persistent mental illness and loved that. I realized those were my people but because of the managed care system with insurance and Things like that. when I was working. I started to burn out quite quickly and at that point I had met my partner who and we were in an international long distance relationship. And so that burnout paired with International long distance I decided

Hannah Brents: Unemployment job. And so I quit my job and I moved to Europe and I did clinical part-time work and then opened my private practice and so it was kind of left field almost the right turn from the work that I've been doing in with chronic and persistent mental illness on and I was working with totally different clients. And so it's been honestly, I'm learning process. And yeah.

00:05:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. what was the timeline there for because I'm always kind of curious how New professionals whether social worker therapy, I think often have these high intensity jobs because it's hard to get people…

Hannah Brents: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: who have been in the field for a long time to stay with those jobs. Almost curious.

Hannah Brents: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: What the burnout timeline is because in my head, I'm always like you got five years to play with early in your career.

Hannah Brents: My God, burn out. What because I think it would have been a little bit different if my context was a little bit different, but mine burnout was one year. so other circumstances and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure because of those other circumstances.

Hannah Brents: was that I was working in a private Hospital which is a little bit different than the sort of state or public Hospital And so it's just like the revolving door on the patients who we saw was so. High I guess you might say that we've seen the same people all the time and so then it just start to feel like Am I doing anything productive or helpful here when I'm just seeing the same people over and over. And so it just started to feel like This system is broken and that. There's so much work here that I can't get it all done. And…

Jeremy Schumacher: he

Hannah Brents: then the sort of X other circumstantial context, I think also played into that.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. What does you have any training around running a private practice? Did you have any business knowledge coming out of grad school? Which I have a lot of people…

Hannah Brents: Yeah, definitely not.

Jeremy Schumacher: who own their own practices. I'm a little biased as somebody who owns their own practice because I think it's a good thing for the field. But yeah, that's a common theme of kind of you have the mental health stuff. You have the social work stuff at a therapy stuff, but you don't have any preparation. it's just kind of like you'll do agency work and…

Hannah Brents: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: figure it out and That's not sustainable for a lot of people.

Hannah Brents: No, and honestly, I knew this and I was interning when I was in grad school with a woman who we were interns together, and I'm so grateful that I knew her at the time, but she told me that she was going to make 50,000 or whatever. I don't remember whenever we graduated. I was like, yeah, I'm gonna do that too. And I lived in Boston at the time which is one of the highest.

Hannah Brents: has the highest cost of living in the country and so I just knew I could do that and I needed that in order to afford living in a studio in Boston even so many years ago now and my first I had the worst job I've ever had right out of college. We're just unsafe and there I felt unsafe for so many reasons and my boss underpaid I could only pay rent and not utilities not food. Nothing else just friends and my boss that I said, I'm like going to quit because I can't afford to live and work here. He's not. how much do you think you're gonna make anywhere else? And I said, I can make 50,000 and he said no you can't make that anywhere and it just was like, I think that is the kind of culture that you're

Hannah Brents: where we are talking about around the helping profession is even like your mentors or at least mine in the field. or so not hopeful about what it can be like

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and I think you brought up Insurance earlier it for me. I've been in the field for 15 years now. I think that I was presented with that. It's the only way to make money is you have to take insurance and…

Hannah Brents: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: it sucks but it is what it is at the time. when I started doing therapy the reimbursement rates were 60 bucks a session. and those have improved but it's still lower than what a lot of people are going to charge in private practice just to be able to pay their bills. I think people are often surprised when people say I make x amount of dollars and…

Hannah Brents: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: I'm on food stamps still or I still qualify for benefit because it's so expensive especially depending…

Hannah Brents: totally

Jeremy Schumacher: where you live someplace like Boston or Colorado Denver area right now is super expensive there's too many things that go into this…

Hannah Brents: mmm

Jeremy Schumacher: where You have a job that's high stress.

Hannah Brents: Yeah. totally

Jeremy Schumacher: And then you're struggling to make ends meet. So it's a recipe for Burnout. if I wanted to make someone burn out. This is how I would go about doing that.

Hannah Brents: Totally and as a therapist the most stressed that I ever see people is when they are financially stressed. and we go into the hair pulling phase and…

00:10:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Hannah Brents: the pressured speech and saying things that are like making decisions that they wouldn't probably normally

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and then you're practicing in a system like you said is broken I practice in Milwaukee very few resources not for people…

Hannah Brents: yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: who are struggling to have money like six nine months to find a psychiatrist.

Hannah Brents: Yeah. right

Jeremy Schumacher: It's just a nightmare scenario for trying to get people support when you're doing your best as a therapist.

Hannah Brents: Yeah, totally. And it's just such a catch-22. It's like I think people therapist.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and it's not helpful for people trying to get support but it's tougher therapist needs the

Hannah Brents: Yeah.

Hannah Brents: Yeah. Right commonly. Force

Jeremy Schumacher: Rapy, yeah. It's turned into a bummer of an episode so far.

Hannah Brents: I know anyways.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah segue out of that. No, so what was so obviously not having a ton of training in private practice, but then getting into private practice, what's that experience been?

Hannah Brents: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Like you said? it's some learning as you go.

Hannah Brents: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Can you talk a little bit about that experience?

Hannah Brents: So I am just done it so much training, since getting into private practice and I love having my private practice and I couldn't imagine doing anything else and so it's just always like there's just so much out there to learn and it's so easy to get into shining object syndrome, even with trainings whether it's like business trainings. I'm like how to be a business owner or whether it's unlike how to be a better clinician. and so I think it's just nice balance or finding a balance between really developing both aspects of that kind of part of the job.

Hannah Brents: And so some of the trainings that I've done before have been. really in trauma work, so I specialize in a lot of trauma work and then I have the religious background The Bachelors and Masters in and so that's really how that we're the religious trauma specialization came in from it was really the pairing of my formal and then experiential background

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and so then building that as kind of your specialty in your private practice, I think obviously it's great having that trauma background because when you're working with something like religious harm or high control religion, you see so much trauma inherent in that,…

Hannah Brents: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: we talked about religious drama as the concept. So yeah, do you want to talk a little bit about that as a specialty kind of how you help people will get into some of your marketing stuff because I know you've got a group running and wait list and all this great stuff that you're doing. But talk about kind of building that as your area of specialty from a business perspective of how did you start to build this and Market this as hey, this is what I do this. These are the people I work with.

Hannah Brents: yeah, and I think that I started making a ton of reals and I started that coming up now on a year ago and it just was using such a different part of my brain than with all the other work that he's doing and it was just kind of fun to think about What ways in communicating how this shows up in my life? And in other people's lives that I know or who I talk to or reach out to me and so

Hannah Brents: and a lot of times I think Academia ruined writing for me and can only now write you a 25 page research paper and really struggle with anything that's relatable or interesting and so video actually felt like an approachable way for me to kind of get into the Space and communicate with people outside of just having a website. Because I think that it just feels easier for me to connect with folks through. video even if it's not one-on-one.

00:15:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Check yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. I think I hated right in an APA format so much that having permission to do these super informal blog posts was like a breath of fresh air for me,…

Jeremy Schumacher: but it's weird right even in the sense of marketing My grad school was very against putting yourself as a person out there it was this unprofessional thing.

Hannah Brents: right

Hannah Brents: mmm

Jeremy Schumacher: And then when you're a private practice owner, you're like, wait I have to learn how to Market this which is a totally different mind, but

Hannah Brents: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, and I think even I've been doing a lot of learning about this recently.

Hannah Brents: and I think even it challenges me to be precise? I think that as someone who just is indeeded with this all the time this content of religious harm and Etc. It just is easy for me to make assumptions about what other people are thinking. and so the other day had somebody who is

Hannah Brents: I don't even know if they've ever been religious look at my account and say but what is religious trauma? I think okay, wait a second, and so I think it just really helps at least me with communicating and precision and be not making assumptions about what other people know or don't know or where people are coming from.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and I think it's great online that there's a community for deconstruction as somebody who's leaving religion my experience I didn't find all those podcasts that are super helpful and awesome until after a deconstructed…

Hannah Brents: Okay, yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: because right that's the information control when you're in a high control religion. You don't know what's out there.

Hannah Brents: Totally yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: So there are communities around deconstruction their communities around religious harm their communities for professionals like us who work with the religious trauma a field but those can become their own kind of little Echo Chambers and it's this Balancing Act.

Hannah Brents: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: I think of someone who's starting to question their faith. Is that a way different point than somebody who's two years outside of their organized religion?

Hannah Brents: right

Jeremy Schumacher: So that process that happens is a lot of change and so we as professionals right have to kind of be aware of where people in their process.

Hannah Brents: Yeah, totally and I think that it has been a really good challenge for me because My crisis of faith and my deconstruction really happened about 10-15 years ago. And so I feel oftentimes really so far removed from what it felt like that? And I be meaning to make something about this or put this out there, but my partner lovingly says to me. Or that if I was still that way we would not be together. because when I think about it,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Hannah Brents: it was a completely different life and I was completely different person and you're like it is its own. Echo chamber

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and I think not in a culty way that organized religion can be but it's fascinating. I think I see this with a lot of the deconstruction podcasts and not to cast aspersions on anyone but they kind of filter themselves out after two or three years because once you've been deconstructed for two or three years that process has less meaning to you you're interested in other things.

Hannah Brents: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: So it's interesting. I think I've been out of organization for about five years and out and about as an atheist for about two years, but it is interesting. you have to catch yourself. I'll have new clients who come in and they're like I don't think I have religious trauma. I'm like, right. We gotta go.

Hannah Brents: Welcome. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Let's back up. So it's interesting. I think it saves so much time as therapist needs therapy read traumatize every aspect of their culty upbringings,…

Hannah Brents: No.

00:20:00

Hannah Brents: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: but at the same time We're at when you've deconstructed for two years five years 10 years is different than when you're going through the process.

Hannah Brents: No.

Hannah Brents: Yeah, and what I would say is that has been a little bit hard for me to Nuance online is that is actually the space that I prefer to begin and maybe just personality or interest but I am less clinically speaking. I would say a little bit less interested in that immediate crisis of faith. And really more interested in the sort of two to ten year Gap there.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, how do you rebuild it?

Hannah Brents: exactly and I think that that's really where my academic religious background comes in is that for example, I went to Boston University and was surrounded by people who were different than me and I had to learn how to think for myself how to form opinions and how to disagree respectfully and how to make friends with people who are different than me and that all of this is and I think that because in that two to ten year Gap you start to return to some amount of equal equilibrium in life after that initial crisis. And you start to return to status quo.

Hannah Brents: Without I think often I'm giving yourself the time and space to actually develop a new sort of belief system.

Hannah Brents: and so without developing that new belief system. I think there can be that sort of. under existential like unrest I might say.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and depending on people's life experience. They might not know how to navigate that if you were born into high control religion you've been indoctrinated from birth.

Hannah Brents: right

Jeremy Schumacher: You don't know how to build the belief system. You don't know how to go through the process of what are your actual values? And I think for a lot of people they don't disappear…

Hannah Brents: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: because they're not in a specific religion anymore. I think you have to recalibrate kind of what things are meaningful to you.

Hannah Brents: Yeah, and I think that often and maybe in the deconstruction space too. I have felt a little bit. I'm not unwelcome but I don't fit at times because I think I have experienced or seen a lot of anger. In the space and I don't really feel that and when I get my post something angry,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Hannah Brents: it's a lot of response. But if I post something about happiness not so much, right and…

Jeremy Schumacher: check

Hannah Brents: so, I think that

Hannah Brents: What? Can happen is that there's this? dialectic between I am either. Religious or I'm an atheist or agnostic or something of that sort, but I think a lot of folks don't actually know what that means. and…

Jeremy Schumacher: right

Hannah Brents: there's really like

Hannah Brents: it's like I just wish that every week at all go to theology school, and

Hannah Brents: and I think that that's like a lot of my clients who come for religious trauma come saying I tried on atheism or agnosticism whatever it was and it just doesn't feel like it fits right, but I don't know how to cope with the idea of being any sort of religious or spiritual. and so what I think and I'd love to hear what you think about this because not that one is better or worse or the other but just the presence of black and white maybe the Assumption of black and white thinking of I am either this extreme or that extreme instead of being able to investigate for yourself. What your value system is and then understanding where you lie?

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and I think atheism a label is a poor one because it's just your identifying by what And that's not as meaningful as what you are instead. I think professionally I generally identify as an atheist…

00:25:00

Hannah Brents: mmm

Jeremy Schumacher: because I worked at a Christian counseling place when I started my career I think to be out and about as a secular therapist needs

Hannah Brents: Yeah.

Hannah Brents: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: That's helpful for my mental health and become sacred because of that. But yeah, no that angry atheist Trope exists for a reason I think. But I think it's one of those things where that's part of the process for some people. I look at it a marriage therapist.

Hannah Brents: mmm

Jeremy Schumacher: I was lied to or Injustice was done.

Hannah Brents: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: I was harmed. So I think that anger speaks to your values being. trampled on But yeah,…

Hannah Brents: Yeah crossed.

Jeremy Schumacher: I don't think that's the healthiest place. That sounds like I'm judging that's not for everyone to stay in that angry space. I don't think it's super healthy.

Hannah Brents: I think the Keo and say at least for me or for my perspective is this day. He's like to stay there and I think that's the piece it is super healthy to be here to rageful but Forever gets a little tiring. So yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah, I tend to say emotions are neutral. It's what actions were attaching to them and so being intentional in our response if you're angry about Roe v Wade being overturned or you're angry and you do something about it. that's great if you're just posting on line every day and getting angry or an angrier. That's probably not going to be super sustainable for you long term. So again, I think it's emotions are neutral. what actions are we attaching to those things?

Hannah Brents: Yeah, I'm like, I guess what I would say about what we were talking about a second ago about bulidiosity versus Atheism is their neutral neither one of them is really better or worse. especially where I'm coming from as a therapist needs.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Hannah Brents: and it's from that place and so that aligns with religion or with atheism or with right paganism or with whatever other thing like being woo then it's about using the critical thinking skills to actually determine what is authentically aligned with how you see the world?

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and I see some of the High control religion tactics In Wellness bases that are secular that you…

Hannah Brents: Yeah. definitely

Jeremy Schumacher: so right it's being aware of those things. those things didn't get created by religion and they don't exist just in religion like those are biases.

Hannah Brents: No, I have a lot of people. who come and talk about how it happens in their workplace? their workplace uses those things? So it's definitely not or…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yep.

Hannah Brents: someone messaged me about I don't remember if it was yoga or some other workout space but these tactics are not isolated to religion.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah religion takes advantage of them in the same way that other places take advantage of them. They're naturally occurring biases in our brain.

Hannah Brents: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: We like to categorize things we have in group out groups and when that gets crystallized Intentionally that does some different things to our brain. But yeah,…

Hannah Brents: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: I think I mean talking about spiritual but not religious or the rise of the nuns. I see all these articles.

Hannah Brents: Right. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: I know the rise of the nuns I think it's A thing that people are becoming more aware of as people leave church and don't necessarily pick up a different specified identity. I think that process of meaning making is important still at that time.

Hannah Brents: totally and this actually comes up with almost all of my clients who are not there specifically for religious trauma. I've seen a lot of clients who are in a Big Life transition and have left whatever career or an employment or something like that and we talk about how Even if they didn't grow up religious generally a few decades ago religion is what provided people with a set of rules that said this is what makes life meaningful and this is what makes you a good person or bad person and with what you're talking about the new research coming out with it. the nuns being the highest growing sort of affiliation in quotes of religiosity or spirituality that

00:30:00

Hannah Brents: There I think because of what we're saying of minutes ago about…

Jeremy Schumacher: Okay.

Hannah Brents: how we often don't then cultivate something new in its place. It is my unresearched opinion that what then happens is our brain is what is the biggest thing that I do in life? it's work and so then work is what I believe or seen is work is then given the emphasis that was put on what used to be or historically put on religion and I think because often especially if they're going through a period of unemployment it brings up a lot of sentiment around like being valuable or being worthy or

Hannah Brents: anything like that and if you don't have a job that you're just on fire passionate for any of those kind of Things that people say, your job should meet at the crossroads of whatever. that you I see a lot people there's a lot of conflict around this. because It's like pay the bills,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Hannah Brents: .

Hannah Brents: And so I don't know. and then I think that that's doubled if your workplace is culty and so I think that it's just because we often I think end up asking the question of what makes life meaningful of Work especially as American so hi. I'm a therapist. Jeremy what do you do?

Jeremy Schumacher: right Yeah.

Hannah Brents: It makes me you?

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, we're not talking about what our favorite albums are when we first meet someone we talk about what we do for work.

Hannah Brents: Ryan and that's like my soapbox, but I am and being in other countries…

Jeremy Schumacher: I

Hannah Brents: where work is less of a

Hannah Brents: less important I have friends who legitimately after years of knowing them. It's not know what they do for work,

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I know Michael clients listen to my podcast so I don't want to go too into detail how I'm a terrible therapist therapy and…

Hannah Brents: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: it is a weird work schedule. I'll remember it then because it affects the couple but I have vague ideas of sales or…

Hannah Brents: Sure.

Jeremy Schumacher: engineer type thing. I was job titles are…

Hannah Brents: Yeah, yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: because it doesn't matter a whole lot. but I think I'm in a nerd out a little bit on systems theory as a marriage therapist.

Hannah Brents: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: a system change so we as a couple are gonna change the way parent or making a change at work and the culture or whatever. Then third order change is really that belief system. And so I think I was a marriage therapist Love doing this work with people who are deconstructing because I see that as third order change. this belief system is changing and It's not a dichotomy like I was religious now. It's a process of what does that mean moving forward?

Hannah Brents: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: and it's so Meaningful, let's try to think of a different word to avoid meaning being meaningful. But it's so powerful to see in people's lives when they land someplace that's genuine and someplace that's authentic like it's so cool.

00:35:00

Hannah Brents: totally Yeah, totally.

Hannah Brents: I know as a therapist.

Hannah Brents: Even though it's different than a friend relationship and there is that just so much. relationship there there's so much history of knowing someone and so when they're flourishing it's touching to send them off and I don't know on this new phase of life and their journey and also so lovely when that actually gets to happen in therapy because you don't get to practice endings very often or very well. so I always tell them we get to practice this year even though it's hard for both of us.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah. It's a cool process. It's weird. it's hard to talk about it for non therapist.

Hannah Brents: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And I feel very honored to be able to do that with people.

Hannah Brents: totally I feel that.

Jeremy Schumacher: what's segue a little bit can we talk about kind of I'm having a total blank the package that you're offering the coaching that you offer. You've got this whole program you've put together for people and…

Hannah Brents: I'm sure so.

Jeremy Schumacher: we talk about that a little bit.

Hannah Brents: I offer outside of my private practice which is where I work one-on-one with people and currently that is only for people in the state of Massachusetts. But soon hopefully within the next few weeks, it will also be for people in Florida and Texas and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Hey.

Hannah Brents: yeah and outside of that though. That's for on one work outside of that and I have created a course called making peace with your religious past. And that is really where I have taken. All of the sort of steps and resources that you used with my clients one-on-one and compiled it into the scores that someone could walk through on their own. Although there is some Facebook online support. but it's where all of those races resources are compiled together and

Hannah Brents: And I think really just what and maybe you did not have when we were deconstructing of what it does take to actually change a belief system what are the practices for working through The Rage or guilt or shame or the Panic that comes up when you are doing that and so it's some of the body based practices. and then reimagining relationships and sexuality and even spirituality else after you do those two things because I would say those are really I think that areas that I see.

Hannah Brents: Most folks kind of come out of high control religion with conflict in and for myself where I had experienced that religious harm.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and as a therapist therapy I love how many people are putting together these things so that people can go through it on their own time. I think therapy benefits everyone. I'm biased I'm a therapist needs therapy up is really powerful.

Hannah Brents: Yes. All right. right

Hannah Brents: Yeah.

00:40:00

Jeremy Schumacher: It can be very lonely deconstructing when everyone is a church person and…

Hannah Brents: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: you're leaving that And so that's a whole process too.

Hannah Brents: right my Totally and the idea behind, I'm kind of went back and forth on the Facebook thing because I hate Facebook and I am never on it. it exists for me, it but I ended up deciding to put together an offer this private Facebook Community for anyone who is going through it because it can be such a lonely process and it can be really helpful not just for me, but from other people who are going through the same process too get feedback on maybe you're working through a specific belief and you're just stuck. and kind of putting that to the group or the community and saying does anybody seeing something that I'm not seeing or this kind of thing so,

Hannah Brents: I think that it can be really powerful to have this community around you who is and working through the same steps in process.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah, it's almost like a cohort of people…

Hannah Brents: Yes, great word.

Jeremy Schumacher: who are going through the same thing at the same time finding each…

Hannah Brents: Yeah, great word for that. I'm sorry.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Go ahead.

Hannah Brents: I guess I was thinking I didn't totally explain the whole thing. The last couple parts is that I have a few. Bonuses that are part of the course that are near and dear to my heart which are intro to world religions. A deep dive into the mystical and contemplative traditions and then how to make friends as an adult after a high control religion because in these three It's not like these just for me really felt like they kind of tied the whole thing together because I was describing my experience in my grand program. I was surrounded by diversity and it sort of was almost exposure therapy for

Hannah Brents: like learning that other religions or religious Expressions aren't scary. And so that is sort of this idea learning that there are other religious expressions and that they don't have to be scary and then even if you choose to be religious There is so much outside of Orthodoxy. That sounds probably a lot more like, spirituality or spiritual but not religious then what you ever heard about in church, for example.

Hannah Brents: And then the friend thing because when you've been taught that there are some people who are in and there are some people who are out. It can be hard to just forget that when you leave. so that is and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Hannah Brents: those have been I think some of the biggest aspects of rebuilding. That I've done.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I tell people I'm very upfront with it. the hardest thing I work with in therapy is adults making new friends and…

Hannah Brents: yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: Just in general and then throw in the reconstruction aspect of leaving a high control religion and all that goes along with that. it's very complicated we Make friends with people based on proximity who's in your neighborhood.

Hannah Brents: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Who do you go to school with who are your work people and we don't get a ton of training anywhere? Formally on…

Hannah Brents: No.

Jeremy Schumacher: how to make those connections and how to grow when nurture those connections because you don't just find a best friend overnight.

Hannah Brents: no, and on also, this is something that I've learned and still probably lifelong learning here that expecting my expectations for relationships are extremely high and is that because of high control religion maybe But There is likely in my adult life. There's not gonna be one friend or one person who satisfies all of my friend needs. And just my partner doesn't you…

Jeremy Schumacher: right

Hannah Brents: satisfy if you will all of my needs as a human being and so in that. modern conception it was A island I'm the French philosopher Alan de botan. I think who talks about Modern Love and how it is this new conception of Love or understanding of it to expect someone to be everything.

00:45:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Hannah Brents: So I see that come into play for myself and other adult clients as well who have this expectation of maybe that's bound my best friend.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, it's a soulmate quality. I told my clients all the time. I'm not a romantic marriage Ideas sold by Hallmark,…

Hannah Brents: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: it's sold by. Disney It's not based on anything. I love my wife when she gets together with best friend. They go thrift shopping. I don't like thrift stores sensory issues. There's a lot of things about going into Goodwill that I don't love so yeah for her to be with her best friend who likes to go thrifting with her or her sisters or…

Hannah Brents: right

Jeremy Schumacher: whoever it's not weird or threatening to be like, My partner gets their needs met by another person like that doesn't have to be a bad thing that makes a lot of sense in most contexts.

Hannah Brents: right

Jeremy Schumacher: It's just we have this weird idea around.

Jeremy Schumacher: Soulmates or my other half or you complete me type like ideology.

Hannah Brents: Yeah, and I think so I've moved a lot and I think that for example, one of the biggest cultural changes the cultural culture shocks I've ever experienced as somebody who has traveled the world numerous times. It is from Texas to Boston and that one was tough.

Hannah Brents: and I think it is a skill that we learn and cultivate even though and so even as I see that I do think that there are a lot of behavioral things that someone can choose to participate in or incorporate and at the same time. It's like I also have to kind of hold that with an open. hand not in a fast that I can go to all the knitting meetups and that I can find and I can join the gym and I can go to working spaces and whatever and it can still not come easily. and not there's just

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Hannah Brents: also normalizing I had this friend who is amazing and this new friend and we sort of normalize for each other and there are other groups of friends who make us feel excluded. and I just say that to say it has been so refreshing to me. To have somebody else say God, it's not just this happens to me all the time. he's listened to what these gym girls did. and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Hannah Brents: because think that when people Hear that's from my clients too. when there's a group of friends who get together and then they don't invite you it can feel embarrassing my gosh, why didn't they invite me? And it ends it's painful, and to have somebody in your life who like you guys can sort of normalize that for each other, and then once angry I sent a voice message and then this friend responding was funny if you think about it and from then on it was like I guess you're right it's kind of like there's just you don't like that heaviness and that seriousness that we bring to life with high control religion. things are so serious. and sometimes it's like

Hannah Brents: Yeah, not that serious. this person can be a friend for pizza and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Hannah Brents: that's it.

Jeremy Schumacher: Right and being thinking of it in terms of building support. I talk about a dart board like the different rings on a dart board like your inner circle people and…

Hannah Brents: mmm just

Jeremy Schumacher: then as they get out and have those people who every two months your work friends go out and you're included but you're not included in their weekly Hangouts, like that's fine. then they're every two month friends and…

Hannah Brents: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: it's cool.

Hannah Brents: It's a nice analogy right I have used before. there are Friends for pizza or you have Soul friends or hard friends or Jesus himself? Jesus the man did have The one whom Jesus loved and then had the three. And then had the twelve. And then the apostles and then just everybody else and…

00:50:00

Jeremy Schumacher: all right.

Hannah Brents: something like okay even Jesus I like Hannah whole social network.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Hannah Brents: And so even for my non-religious folks they're kind of like, I guess that's true.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, right I'm in a segue a hard left turn here.

Hannah Brents: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: What do you do to kind of maintain your mental well-being? what do you do maybe daily or weekly? how are the things that kind of help? Keep you? Balanced and feeling like you're taking care of yourself.

Hannah Brents: Sure So lately that is putting really strict boundaries around social media and technology. For example, I don't allow myself to be on social media on the weekends. and then outside of that I do a lot of knitting and I do some other kind of crafty things like creative journaling or calligraphy and then I think I don't know if I've always been this way, but I'm just kind of a beginner at a lot of things like I'm beginning to learn calligraphy and art and skiing and swimming and dancing and so I'm just kind of a beginner at a lot and

Hannah Brents: but I do do a lot of movement and exercise and then travel is probably one of the things and that kind of keeps me sane and we're going on vacation soon, and It's sort of where I feel most alive.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, very cool. you don't know how to swim?

Hannah Brents: Yeah, I mean I do.

Jeremy Schumacher: That's the one out of all of…

Hannah Brents: I do not swim I can hold my own I can jump off into the sea or…

Jeremy Schumacher: That's the one that I'm gonna pick out.

Hannah Brents: whatever like but I'm afraid of sharks. Thank you, Texas and Massachusetts. There are active shark attacks there.

Jeremy Schumacher: check

Hannah Brents: And so I'm terrified of sharks. So even when I'm in the Mediterranean, I can jump off come up having and an actual panic attack. because you can see that the bottom and They're like rocks and they just look like dark shapes and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Hannah Brents: panic. So anyways, when I'm talking about maybe learning how to swim without a panic attack. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: I wasn't picking on you. I was normalizing I didn't learn how to swim till I was 16. I taught myself just one summer up by my grandparents…

Hannah Brents: yeah. nice.

Jeremy Schumacher: because I just was like, I don't know doing the doggy paddle again, I wasn't drowning…

Hannah Brents: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: but I didn't know how to swim effectively.

Hannah Brents: I don't think I could say Mine is effective I've asthma and so the being under like I can run I do a lot of cycling…

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Hannah Brents: but being underwater makes me. freak out a little bit there is no oxygen down here. And so just a little bit. It's kind of a mental game swimming for me. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: So no, That's Pick up skills and learn things and trying to approach it in a different way. It's good to not drown.

Hannah Brents: Yeah, totally and I don't know I listen to this audiobook. from the library appears to go during covid about being a beginner and the sky who just was growing raising his daughter and decided to quit a bunch of stuff in do stuff and then quit and be a beginner and I do think that It isn't good skill for me to cultivate because I'm not very patient in Jenna has asked me I'm not a super patient person and so learning a language. And things like that is really kind of stretches my patient muscle.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I like that. I'm gonna steal this because I have ADHD, so I do things for three to six months and then never do them again and just gonna Start owning it and…

Hannah Brents: Yeah, yeah exactly.

Jeremy Schumacher: then I quit it on purpose not on accident.

00:55:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Hannah this has been awesome. If I highly recommend people follow you on Instagram, which is where I connected with you you put out a lot of great content, but people want to work with you or they want to learn more about some of the things that you offer where can they go to find out more about you and your work.

Hannah Brents: So my website is safe talk That is the name of my private practice. So if you're in Massachusetts and soon to be Florida or Texas and you're interested in therapy, and that would be a great way to reach out and then if you are just interested in staying connected, you can always join the email newsletter that I send out and that will kind of keep you up to date on all the new happenings.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, very cool. And we will have all those links in the show notes for people to check out and all my stuff is that Wellness with Jare so people can find my stuff there Hannah. This has been wonderful. Thanks so much for coming on.

Hannah Brents: Yeah. Thanks Jeremy.

Jeremy Schumacher: And to all our wonderful listeners, thanks for tuning in again this week. We'll be back next week with the new episode. Take care of everyone.

Meeting ended after 00:56:13 👋