Your Therapist Needs Therapy 36 - Queer Survivors of Religious Trauma with Mahrs Schoppman

Jeremy is joined this week by fellow LMFT Mahrs Schoppman. Jeremy and Mahrs talk about some of the intersectionalities of queerness and religious trauma, why group therapy can be such a powerful tool for healing, and why churches don’t want you to be comfortable in your own skin.

For more info about Mahrs’s practice, you can head over to therapywithmahrs.com or follow him on Instagram.

Jeremy’s practice info and useful links are all located over at Wellness with Jer. 

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Podcasts about therapy do not replace actual therapy, and listening to a podcast about therapy does not signify a therapeutic relationship. 

If you or someone you know is in crisis please call or text the nationwide crisis line at 988, or text HELLO to 741741. The Trevor Project has a crisis line for LGBTQ+ young people that can be reached by texting 678678.

Transcript

Your Therapist Needs Therapy - Mahrs Schoppman (2023-12-21 11:05 GMT-6) - Transcript

Attendees

Jeremy Schumacher, Mahrs Schoppman

Transcript

This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it was created.

Jeremy Schumacher: Hello and welcome to another edition of your therapist needs therapy podcast for two mental health professionals talk about their mental health Journeys and how they navigate mental Wellness while working in the mental health field. I'm your host Jeremy Schumacher at licensed marriage and family therapist.

Mahrs Schoppman: Thanks for having me Jeremy.

Mahrs Schoppman: Yeah, I got into the mental health field on and some ways. I always wanted to be in the mental health field when I was a child. I wanted to be a child Needs therapy go into youth ministry. I thought I didn't want to sit in a room and wait for people to come to me to talk about their problems. I wanted to be more out in the field so to speak and so I got really invested in youth industry work. And then that's a long story that maybe we'll get to you leaving that.

Mahrs Schoppman: And took a few years to deconstruct and then just came right back to it. I discovered something called somatics Psychotherapy that really involves the body and my body felt lit up by that idea and the next month. I was in grad school and I been a therapist.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I love the roundabout Journeys. We all kind of take to get here. and most therapist

Mahrs Schoppman: how disappointing?

Mahrs Schoppman: right

Jeremy Schumacher: going out into the field and working with people sounds so Evangelical.

Mahrs Schoppman: And that's exactly what it is. Yeah, so Evangelical

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, which is what I was raised Evangelical Lutheran, which is All of the guilt and shame of evangelicals without any of the funds speaking in tongues or anything like that.

Mahrs Schoppman: Did you get the rock bands at least? No, not even yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: No, German Lutheran's very stoic German.

Jeremy Schumacher: We have the old Hymnal organs when people play piano. It was controversy. We need to use the organ. So yeah,…

Mahrs Schoppman: Yeah.

Mahrs Schoppman: Absolutely. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: do you mind talking a little bit about kind of that Evangelical background?

Mahrs Schoppman: Not at all. No. No, I went to a Baptist School from kindergarten through 12th grade where the piano also not allowed the organ was the only thing allowed where we were, we were taught that Stayton was the Fallen Angel of Music and that was his primary way of getting into people's minds and leading them away from God and so drumbeats anything that sounded quote unquote secular was banned. And so yeah,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Mahrs Schoppman: it was a real conservative place for me to be and that was juxtaposed with my family life where my folks came to know Jesus Through recovery. And A and Na and then sent me to this school thinking Christianity as Christianity and we don't know anything about it. So we need to learn about it through our kids. and I was kind of tasked to be the go between this incredibly conservative school, and then my parents were by name Christian, but

Mahrs Schoppman: A lot more feral and comparison to the conservative and environment. I believe my message machine growing up was my dad saying leave a message or I'll kill you and so Christian principle would call and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Mahrs Schoppman: stammer and say she had the wrong number.

Mahrs Schoppman: But yeah, and then in high school, I got really into the Presbyterian church and see USA the rock band kind of church and that's where I started to get pulled into Ministry and stuff. And yeah.

00:05:00

Jeremy Schumacher: So Satan got you through the music eventually.

Mahrs Schoppman: Do the music. He always does I just wanted to shake my hips.

Jeremy Schumacher: and I love talking to people who work with religious drama because It all sounds so similar if you were raised in a very conservative or…

Mahrs Schoppman: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: fundamentalist background, there's all this overlap, but there's these weird quirks of that's such a quirky thing. I remember argument of my youth pastor about System of a Down but that was very specifically because he thought that band was satanic not that music was satanic.

Mahrs Schoppman: Right.

Jeremy Schumacher: So I love kind of the different geographical places and the different quirks of these churches that are like, this is the thing we're gonna Plantar flag and…

Mahrs Schoppman: Absolutely.

Jeremy Schumacher: really dig our heels in music is bad. That's

Mahrs Schoppman: Yeah, yellow music liberates, right and a lot of these dogmatics systems are afraid of anything that liberates.

Jeremy Schumacher: mmm

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and so music and now working in somatic experiencing. What was kind of the connection there was that feeling something physically and that's like hey, I need to share this with people what was kind of that transition point in your life.

Mahrs Schoppman: transition point from Christianity to not be in a Christian

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, you go from the less conservative you get to listen to the rock bands. And then what's kind of the transition away from that.

Mahrs Schoppman: totally

Mahrs Schoppman: Yeah, I went to and quick clarification. I'm not yet certified as a ic experiencing person. it's like its own very particular thing. I'm have a broader somatic training,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Mahrs Schoppman: but I'm about to start this American Experience in training and in March. So yeah to get picky there.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Mahrs Schoppman: It was a long transition, but I would say like that there is. Two major life events that really let it along and one of them was on just really feeling in my body the way the church was responding to death. There was a very tragic death of a young person in my church. Who was the worship leader at the time.

Mahrs Schoppman: And the response that we should be celebrating that he's in heaven and bypass the grief. my body was just screaming in this doesn't feel right my body needed to grieve and I didn't necessarily trust that because I was taught to not trust my body and to not trust emotions, but that was incredibly incredibly formative and I think it was one of the first big splits for me away from the church and there were many more but the last straw was when I realized I was queer and…

Jeremy Schumacher: he

Mahrs Schoppman: I was lined up to take a full-time youth Minister position at this someone megachurch and I drove up and I said I'm quitting because you're gonna fire me. Okay, and…

Jeremy Schumacher: yeah.

Mahrs Schoppman: and the way the church handled that and they handled it very quietly. They're like, let's just tell people you're more fit for urban ministries, whatever that means and just the loss of Stanley and community and in one day that was another factor that just threw me into a deep deconstruction phase. But I'm incredibly lucky and going to Christian School. I became friends with all of the queers and the artists and that all the outcasts and so I had a community of people that we were deconstructing together, forever be so great for that.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, that's wonderful. I have had a lot of neurodivergent folks on the podcast and we like to joke that neurodivergent brains I think queer brains find each other And when it is an in group out group dynamic,…

Mahrs Schoppman: Yeah. Absolutely.

Jeremy Schumacher: I think people who feel like they are in the out group and to be drawn towards each other.

Mahrs Schoppman: Absolutely, I'll never celebrate oppression never and there is something beautiful that can happen to the bonds created between people under the rock of Oppression.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah. So yeah that not deconstructing alone is really nice because it can be a very lonely experience as you highlighted in your story like the loss of…

Mahrs Schoppman: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: how much support and church Connections in just one day anything.

Mahrs Schoppman: mmm

00:10:00

Jeremy Schumacher: That's one of the things that the church uses to keep people in it. And that's one of the things that keeps people afraid from leaving for sure.

Mahrs Schoppman: Yep.

Mahrs Schoppman: Absolutely.

Jeremy Schumacher: So you throw out a word that my brain lights up on which is bypassing.

Jeremy Schumacher: Spiritual byssing. I mean this concept of the afterlife of Heaven it's a classic example, I think of spiritual bypassing where instead of being in your body letting your brain be uncomfortable and working through those emotions that come along with those emotions and those physical feelings that come along with that we skip it by saying a Bible verse or…

Mahrs Schoppman: Okay. Yep.

Jeremy Schumacher: and so the phrase spiritual bypassing is related to slap a Bible verse let go and let God works in mysterious ways, whatever version of that you grew up with. yeah, and…

Mahrs Schoppman: Not of this world.

Jeremy Schumacher: and that It kind of inhibits our brain from being able to do the work and working through that discomfort that comes with a natural thing like grief or loss.

Mahrs Schoppman: right

Jeremy Schumacher: So I think that's a common experience that people have in. My body is telling me something this doesn't feel right. This doesn't fit for kind of where my brains out or my body's at or both. So, how'd you take that and run with it explore it a little bit because there is all this work to bypass that there is all this work to not trust your body. Your body is bad or sinful. So what was that kind of like for you is you start to tug on that thread a little bit.

Mahrs Schoppman: Slow and tedious and I'm painful and liberating. I really

Mahrs Schoppman: I think that a lot of the major religions that I'm subscribe to a fear-based Dogma celebrate dissociation as holiness. and I was so deeply trained to ignore my body as an act to be celebrated.

Mahrs Schoppman: Right, pick up your cross and follow him right? Just I think push forward to but I was socialized female and the church as well. And so to put everything and everyone before oneself into just be of service. that the message is and so when I left I was pretty dissociated and didn't even know that I was just Associated and it was a really really really long journey to even understanding that to have a sense of Oneness with one's body and for that to be a good thing that can feel

Mahrs Schoppman: A source of dignity and choice was a really abstract idea and I went into my master's degree to study somatic. It's like a therapy because my body just led me there and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Mahrs Schoppman: I got there and I was like, what the f*** am I doing here? Okay. I was just surrounded by people who had been an embodiment practices for decades and I was realized major task was just to learn how to be a body and I think I've come a long way and I still know that my major task and on this Earth is to learn how to be a body and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Mahrs Schoppman: to learn that with other people. And yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And it's podcasts so people can't see my face, but I'm just smiling here because of how often doing this work working with religious trauma. We hear stories like this and that disconnect between your body. Faith as a concept is very much it's in your heart. But that doesn't make sense your heart's a muscle. So there's all these things that distance us from our body and…

Mahrs Schoppman: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: I think tying in with some of the oppression that happens then ies Our bodies are sinful. I have ADHD. So I have some disconnects with my body to begin with some sensory stuff and…

Mahrs Schoppman: yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: I think that

Jeremy Schumacher: was elevated in it. I think that was again as you're kind of talking when you distance yourself from your body that sought out in the church and so is one of those things was like this never felt right for me, but the church was telling me it was good. And so it's hard to deconstruct some of that stuff. It's hard to Let that stuff go even if you're not an active believer anymore, some of that stuff is really ingrained and held in our body.

Mahrs Schoppman: Yeah, it just makes me think of being a gaslighting that occurs in church abuse. Right like you just said this doesn't feel good in my body, but they're telling me it's good and just how confusing that is and how much that works one sense of a reality. That's pretty tragic.

00:15:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, what was in your chronology you've kind of taken us up to grad school? What was The Journey

Mahrs Schoppman: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Grad school on and I guess kind of get into where you're at now working with religious trauma working with queer folks who are coming out of maybe a traumatic religious background.

Mahrs Schoppman: yeah, when I started on seeing clients in grad school and my practicum, just by the Dare, I say the magic of therapy a bunch of folks came to my practice who had religious trauma and I didn't even know that that was a thing at the time like those words and over the years. I came across Marlene winnell's book religious trauma syndrome and I was like, wow, this is a thing. This is a field of study a small one albeit, but just having words to my experience was really incredible and I was working with individuals.

Mahrs Schoppman: Probably for about eight years around religious trauma of all folks, but mostly queer survivors and it just occurred to me that because religious trauma is a group trauma that I thought that there'd be really a lot of power in creating safe enough group spaces for people to share their stories and for us to be embodiment practices together. It's about two years ago or so time is a funny thing, but I think about two years ago. I started leading groups for queer survivors of religious trauma. Those have been really

Mahrs Schoppman: it's really really powerful and amazing and I think my lucky stars that I get to do that work and it feels so inspired by the individuals that come through these groups and the opportunity to be in these groups spaces to hear one another and to feel resonance and because of all the gasoline to be like, wait. Okay, That was real for you that must be real for me too then and to kind of click in some of the pieces that were on shredded by Dogma.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and I think there's a normalizing in group work that can happen. It's one of the big things that you lose Community when you leave the church and then building that Community back up and…

Mahrs Schoppman: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: finding people who say Purity called you you had a purity culture ceremony wait, so you hear about mine and…

Mahrs Schoppman: right

Jeremy Schumacher: some of that shared language and shared experience is so Soothing just having someone else…

Mahrs Schoppman: Yeah. Absolutely.

Jeremy Schumacher: who understands it.

Mahrs Schoppman: Absolutely. When I first started these groups, I had it before folks with Evangelical trauma. And then I had people of all different religions contacting me and be like, please can I have been looking for a group like this my whole life and it's really just different flavors at the same type of religious abuse and harm and so the group is now open to anybody who has been harmed by a restricted religious experience.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, they're kind of all operating off the same Playbook, aren't they?

Mahrs Schoppman: They sure are fear control.

Jeremy Schumacher: So what? I have some thoughts on this but I'm gonna ask it as a question first.

Mahrs Schoppman: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: What are some of the things specific to the queer community that your work focuses on or that you Hear about regularly from your clients. I already said Purity culture. So I think that's one that's going to jump out to people but what are some of the other things that you're kind of seeing?

Mahrs Schoppman: Really?

Jeremy Schumacher: Hey connecting to your body connecting in a group setting that's really healing for people.

Mahrs Schoppman: Yeah. I feel like that the queer community. I think all communities are deeply impacted by religious trauma and the queer Community kind of gets just double whammy around while a lot of people in these restrictive religions are taught at their bodies can't be trusted and that they need a savior of some sort. Queer folks are taught that and that they're disgusting that they're in Abomination. I was taught that queerness is the only homosexuality is the only unforgivable sin that God is disgusted by clearness homosexuality transness all these beautiful expressions.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Mahrs Schoppman: A lot of clear folks get disowned by their churches and their families so many orphaned queer people young and…

00:20:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm

Mahrs Schoppman: young and old and that shame. I like to think of the wisdom of Shame is the body's alarm system when we're moving towards something that's gonna get us out of our communities, right and with queerness many of us do get kicked out of our communities and that shame seeps into the bones. And so even if we know wow, Chris is great critics is Magic create this beautiful and it needs to be celebrated.

Mahrs Schoppman: that shame is so hard to shake off and I think being in group settings and sharing that shame with one. Another is a way that it has a harder time surviving.

Mahrs Schoppman: So I think that answers your question.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah,…

Mahrs Schoppman: I'm curious to hear your thoughts as well.

Jeremy Schumacher: and I think that you said double whammy and was like, cuz leaving the churches is a loss but for so many people who is especially in high control religion. They're gonna lose their family too. They're gonna lose support in other places because I talk about this a lot. I cannot tell you how many sermons I heard about homosexuality. I'm in Wisconsin never heard a sermon about alcoholism, but contextually the thing that's much more alarming for the people on Sundays is probably DUIs drinking too much like that.

Mahrs Schoppman: right right

Mahrs Schoppman: nothing

Jeremy Schumacher: That's a topic that would make sense. Given our geographic location and things that affect the population at large but we're going to focus on you…

Mahrs Schoppman: right

Jeremy Schumacher: this 10% of the population so wherever we're at. And really make them feel bad about themselves. And so it's so bizarre…

Mahrs Schoppman: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: how it's

Jeremy Schumacher: extra picked on it's the church's favorite thing to be bigoted about

Mahrs Schoppman: Yeah. Yeah.

Mahrs Schoppman: I don't think that alcoholism that is threatening to the church.

Mahrs Schoppman: Anywhere near the same way that queerness is right. I think the church is terrified of queerness and that it symbolizes so many things of the church. I just squash down, like Liberation and choice and sex for pleasure and the celebration of the feminine and these things that if they were really allowed in it would just disintegrate the church and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Mahrs Schoppman: it is just an agreeing the churches are falling apart left and right because they can't figure out what to do with us and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Mahrs Schoppman: family families are leaving churches left and right because they're seeing the ways that queer folks are being treated and it really points points holes and Theology and it points to the lack of empathy. And so I think the church treats queerness as a threat because in a lot of ways it is actually at the end.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and you said pleasure and identity some of these things are liberating and so the church as a unit and for social control, which is what the church is about like anything that's giving you pleasure away from what they're teaching is a threat to their power.

Mahrs Schoppman: Absolutely.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, it is fascinating to watch kind of the church disintegrate in real time. But also then alarming at how extreme the people who are still in the church are getting it's one of these things…

Mahrs Schoppman: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: where I don't know if you see this in your work and want to comment on it, but working with queer people. There's so much more acceptance culturally and then there's so much more threat politically from some of these institutions and…

Mahrs Schoppman: right

Jeremy Schumacher: so it's a weird space where Finding Community is maybe easier than it used to be and…

Mahrs Schoppman: Yep.

Jeremy Schumacher: the very real threat of losing rights Pointed out and losing rights are being treated as a second-class citizen is very real and alarming right now too. I don't know. Do you have a comment on that I guess.

Mahrs Schoppman: I mean, I think it's a really good point is it's always backlash when they're social change. And yeah, I think folks are pretty. And I mean, I think the World At Large is terrified right now. There's a lot to be terrified by right now and people are kind of clinging to what they need to cling to in order in order to get by and unfortunately, a lot of people on the religious right are cleaning to their hatred and trying to take control and in that way. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Mmm Yeah yeah, and so It's so disorienting. I think you've deconstructed a belief system, I talk about deconstruction is kind of your boat. You don't believe it anymore. But then deconversion is getting some of it out of your body and relearning some of those things…

00:25:00

Mahrs Schoppman: I like that. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: which is an ongoing process, but then these very real triggers that are brought up of You found an identity that is authentic and genuine and healthy for you. And Society is still trying to take it away or control it in some ways. So I think it's disorienting and I mean out of religious trauma and especially for queer people like that again that double whammy of disorienting of I'm trying to be safe and establish and feel comfortable in this identity build support and also someone else is trying to take it away.

Mahrs Schoppman: And yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Jeremy Schumacher: So Community becomes very important Community. I think we talked about this a little bit earlier. You got to deconvert with some people. It sounds like or…

Mahrs Schoppman: I did. mmm

Jeremy Schumacher: found that Community quickly. how do you kind of help people connect? where do you plug people in as they're deconverting or deconstructing as they're questioning What are some of the things you found helpful maybe in your own experience or that your clients have found to build community when they're struggling with that disconnection from the community. They were raised it.

Mahrs Schoppman: So that's a great question. And I think part of why I started these groups is because I kept being in a loss for that. it'd be Christ survivors would come into my room and we'd be talking about you you need community and there's so many beautiful online communities. I would Point people on online communities and that's incredibly helpful. And Where do religious survivors congregate they don't really write and so one of the biggest reasons I started these groups is to give people a place to come together to talk about those things and then to encourage them to continue their relationships afterwards.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Mahrs Schoppman: And been a part of some of the religious from my Retreats that Marlene winnell puts on and those I know I really transformative spaces for people to get to know other folks who understand them. I hope to in the future run some query treats to myself. But I feel a real. Lack of that in person community technology for survivors and would love to see more of it. And I think as a awareness of religious trauma is spreading there's so many brilliant people…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Mahrs Schoppman: who are creating programs and who are doing really incredible work around this. It's really amazing to know that we're not alone and doing this for you.

Jeremy Schumacher: What do you see? Because there are a lot of spaces online. What do you see the difference between virtual or even hybrid type setups versus doing some of this in person?

Mahrs Schoppman: Yeah, I think I get what you can get. I don't have strong opinions on it. I think some people just really need in person and some people really thrive on online, with the pandemic and a lot of therapy moving to online platform studies are showing that virtual therapy is just as effective if sometimes not more effective than in person. And so I really really celebrate the online and hybrid platforms and I think that there are some people especially with embodiment work who could really benefit with more in person spaces.

Jeremy Schumacher: M-.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah, that's kind of my stance on it too. I try and reach people where they're at. And I think in Wisconsin,…

Mahrs Schoppman: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: I'm the only religious trauma certified practitioner. So hey…

Mahrs Schoppman: I believe that. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: if you're way up North I'm your best bet so, I hold a lot of space for that. But yeah, I think with some of the somatic work, especially For me, I'm ADHD being on the call is way more distracting than showing up in person having to screen.

Mahrs Schoppman: Okay. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: There is more distracting for me than being in person. So yeah, like I agree I think.

Jeremy Schumacher: Building these spaces is super important and just getting the message out is important and starting not that we're done with the pandemic but as it gets safe to congregate and…

Mahrs Schoppman: right

Jeremy Schumacher: people are more comfortable meeting in person. I think some of this stuff hopefully will build up and continue to grow when you were deconstructing. Were you aware of some of these groups or was that kind of a curtain that got pulled back as you were leaving the church?

00:30:00

Mahrs Schoppman: It was not aware of these groups. I don't think I became aware of them…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Mahrs Schoppman: until probably 10 years after ID constructed and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Mahrs Schoppman: and part just to speak to how grateful I am. I lived in one of those groups, a lot of my friends who I deconstructed with the left college and we were still kind of Christian adjacent so they were like, hey, what is the church actually mean? what would it mean to kind of do acts One Church site start thing and so we moved into a big Craftsman house and started a community and had a real heart for trying to

Mahrs Schoppman: Serve the poor so to speak right to share everything and all of that and we just continued our deconstructing where it didn't have any flavor of Christianity afterwards, but I'll just forever be grateful for that experience where I got to really live in a live group of folks deconstructing.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah, I think that that sounds wonderful. I was lucky in that. my wife was ready to deconstruct. I had been waiting I think for me and…

Mahrs Schoppman: yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: I see my background's marriage and family therapy. So I see a lot of couples where the very growth term of unevenly yoked gets brought up often.

Mahrs Schoppman: Okay.

Jeremy Schumacher: But that support person in my immediate vicinity available, but right that's one of the things the church is good at is information control.

Mahrs Schoppman: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And so you don't know they're these groups of people who are deconverting. I talk about them as cohorts like people…

Mahrs Schoppman: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: who are kind of deconverting at the same time and that's really important and I do think the church still really tries to suppress that so it seems so scary to step outside. Because you don't know if you're gonna find acceptance anywhere else you feel like you won't…

Mahrs Schoppman: Wow.

Jeremy Schumacher: but yeah, the number of groups that are out there continues to grow which is great and people being certified and specializing it is wonderful because people are leaving the church in droves, but they don't always know where to land.

Mahrs Schoppman: Absolutely. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: I'm going to shout out Janice Selby who organizes the conference on religious trauma. I know you got to speak at the most recent one. As a professional we're gonna nerd out as professionals a little bit.

Mahrs Schoppman: I did.

Jeremy Schumacher: What's it like finding some of these people who are also doing the work? how does that reflect in you itself a therapist?

Mahrs Schoppman: I think is coming back to that thing of not being alone. I met Janice Selby at a Marlene Manuel religious trauma conference that we were helping facilitate and the work that she's doing is incredible with court and divorcing religion and They're the various projects that she's doing but also just so many other therapist needs therapy books that have been since written on the topic. This is just deep.

Mahrs Schoppman: That happens in my body. we're not alone that this is a growing community and it's a really beautiful community. Yeah, yeah and opportunities like this, try to say yes to these experiences just to have a conversation with you to get to know you more to and…

Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's I agree I think.

Mahrs Schoppman: then to have these connections. Yeah. student

Jeremy Schumacher: Finding all this stuff after I was comfortable referring to myself as an atheist is when I started finding all these things and…

Mahrs Schoppman: s

Jeremy Schumacher: I feel like man if I would have known while I was deconstructing or while I was battling some of these things…

Mahrs Schoppman: have

Jeremy Schumacher: maybe that process would have sped up because it was a long process for a lot of Hell drama so finally letting that stuff go for a lot of people it takes a while.

Mahrs Schoppman: okay.

Mahrs Schoppman: that's real.

Jeremy Schumacher: So yeah, I think that's really wonderful Erika Smith is a sex educator is the Purity culture Dropout program.

Mahrs Schoppman: mmm Yep.

Jeremy Schumacher: She spoke at court as well. So just again all these connections not just with therapist.

00:35:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Because I do think something like religious trauma affects people in all these different ways. Just the belief system is only one of the ways in which it affects people.

Mahrs Schoppman: Absolutely. Really well said yeah. Were you at therapist?

Jeremy Schumacher: I started my career working at a Christian Counseling Center.

Jeremy Schumacher: yeah and it was one of those things where It was in there I was deconstructing without having the language for it because I was Help people understand live submit to your husband as not a patriarchical concept like I was trying to deconstruct that stuff in real time because I had the research the psychology background to say this is…

Mahrs Schoppman: right

Jeremy Schumacher: what a healthy relationship looks like. early young therapist

Mahrs Schoppman: Sorry.

Mahrs Schoppman: Okay.

Jeremy Schumacher: so you sounded like you did this.

Mahrs Schoppman: That's really a huge work you did that at that cushion Christian College everywhere that guy for my group of friends was Scott.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Mahrs Schoppman: Akamoto who has a podcast called Chapel probation and it's just makes such a huge difference to have one authority figure be like actually you're all right.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, but when you're deconstructing you try and find ways to stay in it. It sounds like you kind of did that too of …

Mahrs Schoppman: he

Jeremy Schumacher: what if the church wasn't so bad. What would it look like and like you try and…

Mahrs Schoppman: rights Yep.

Jeremy Schumacher: stay in it I think there's that desire that want to keep your community or find a way to salvage the good stuff.

Mahrs Schoppman: And There's a lot of good stuff.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. sometimes

Mahrs Schoppman: Sometimes yeah, it's a high price. It's not good enough,…

Jeremy Schumacher: right Yeah.

Mahrs Schoppman: but it's a high price. But we so desperately want safety connection belonging dignity, you…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yes.

Mahrs Schoppman: and there's some sense of those things sometimes.

Jeremy Schumacher: yeah and Community I always chuckle and I get the chance to speak at a Unitarian Universalist Church and it's still triggering and However, many years later for me to go into an actual Church. there's just I tend I can feel it in my body that I tense up and…

Mahrs Schoppman: yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: it's like I'm there to talk about religious trauma. I'm help these are people who are not and it's still even though I do the work and I help other people do the work you still sometimes have that visceral response to it. And so Yeah, there's good stuff and building that community and rebuilding Community reconstruction. all that stuff is lovely we're wired for connection. and so that's…

Mahrs Schoppman: Absolutely. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: what people are looking for just Gotta get the patriarchy and the oppressive b** out of there.

Mahrs Schoppman: Yes, please.

Jeremy Schumacher: So Myers, one of the things I also like to talk about in the podcast what does self-care look like in your life now, all this stuff intellectually you help other people do it. But how do you kind of take care of yourself?

Mahrs Schoppman: What a wonderful question. I think that myself care Compass is really pointed towards trying to be as president as possible. And one of the biggest travesties of religion is how much it tears us away from the present moment and has a focusing on and fear of hell hope for heaven how to save that person how to, be manipulative in relationships in order to convert people how to bypass everything in your body and so my continued healing journey and myself care practices are

Mahrs Schoppman: All pointed to working on being present with all the emotions that come up for me and so that includes meditation and I'm lucky enough to live in a redwood forest. And so I go on Long hikes with my dog on the regular and try to really take my relationship with the natural world very seriously. I was taught that I'm not of this world my whole life to really reclaim that I am an animal of this world and this world is the only thing I really truly know that I have at any given moment.

00:40:00

Mahrs Schoppman: and time with my family I have an amazing six year old daughter who is very much in her body and in her creativity and so doing art and playing with her being with community and friends to give me quite honestly very long time to develop a self-care practice That it feel good about and at this point in my life. I feel pretty good at it about good about it. And I fall off of it all the time,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I relate to that very strongly.

Mahrs Schoppman: .

Mahrs Schoppman: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And still struggling against some of that for me I think of it as fundamentalist thinking of there's a right way to do it and…

Mahrs Schoppman: Yeah, right.

Jeremy Schumacher: a wrong way to do it and pushing back against that. I'm failing at this because I'm not sticking to it or Whatever. So, yeah, I Hear that a lot from my clients the people I'm working with but also the other therapist.

Jeremy Schumacher: I have a couple dogs.

Mahrs Schoppman: Are you around much nature? I do know that.

Mahrs Schoppman: Nice great.

Mahrs Schoppman: Sure.

Jeremy Schumacher: I got two little kids. So we like to go romp around in the woods and…

Mahrs Schoppman: nice Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Schumacher: I have ADHD I've mentioned so fire and water are really healing for me. And so I go out of my paddle board and winter that's not available, but I spent a lot of time on the water in the summer.

Mahrs Schoppman: Sorry.

Jeremy Schumacher: No, it's cold. It's a good time for a fire. So it kind of works where I can tap into those things that have always been very stimulating for my brain.

Mahrs Schoppman: Yep. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: I just never quite understood why and so Trying to be intentional around those things and…

Mahrs Schoppman: mmm

Jeremy Schumacher: build those things.

Mahrs Schoppman: Seems like you've really done a lot of work to understand your brain and what it is that you need.

Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, I talk about neurodivergence a lot because I do think you probably experience this working with queer folks and being queer yourself like There's so much about religious trauma that affects everybody and then there's these quirky ways in which it affects you individually. And so I talk about the way that religion prayed on my ADHD they're aspects of neurodivergence being a black and…

Mahrs Schoppman: Yeah.

Mahrs Schoppman: mmm

Jeremy Schumacher: white thinker that works really well with fundamentalism like my brain like some of the rules not all of them…

Mahrs Schoppman: yeah. Absolutely.

Jeremy Schumacher: but some of them and the right and they're wrong. So there's all this untangling that needed to happen and the relationship I had with my diagnosis with ADHD is really changed after I deconverted because the way I relate to my body is so different.

Mahrs Schoppman: mmm Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: But yes, it's ongoing process. I don't feel like it's established. I love that you brought up a child because I have a five year old and an almost three year old birthdays coming up and…

Mahrs Schoppman: Congratulations.

Jeremy Schumacher: it's so fast and it into watch. Them live and experience the world. I'm not teaching them about hell, they're just confident. I don't have to teach them…

Mahrs Schoppman: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: what other people worry about doesn't matter so it's healing and…

Mahrs Schoppman: right

Jeremy Schumacher: it's fascinating to kind of watch and learn and See it happen in real time.

Mahrs Schoppman: I couldn't agree with you more. It really does me away. It's such a joy to every time I tell my daughter you can trust your body I tear up. It's just something beautiful that I get to tell her that I get to Point her back to the wisdom of her body over and over and over again, and she's not gonna have that same experience that I had the being taught to dissociate and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Mahrs Schoppman: she'll have her own struggles and her own path. It's really just so beautiful to watch this this body be a body.

Jeremy Schumacher: Always I have this dual process in my head of Being present with my kids and their experience and then also kind of playing it back in my head wouldn't that be interesting if that would have been my experience as a child? and so yeah,…

Mahrs Schoppman: mmm, right

Jeremy Schumacher: it's wonderful kids are A lot sometimes but they're wonderful.

Mahrs Schoppman: yes indeed.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Mars this has been Wonderful, if people want to learn more about your work or follow you where can they find out more information about? your practice

00:45:00

Mahrs Schoppman: yeah. I have a website therapy with mars.com Mars is spelled and mahrs. And then I also have a Instagram that. Said to you before we started I'm a bit of a Luddite and so I'm not very good with technology. But my Instagram handle is religious trauma therapist therapist.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and we will link to those things in the show notes to make them easy to find.

Mahrs Schoppman: awesome Great. Thank you Jeremy.

Jeremy Schumacher: And I think Court 2023 slowly gets uploaded on YouTube. I don't know the delay between when it happened but I know your talk there you got to talk there and some of those things get posted slowly as well. A dentist Selby is the reason I'm promoting that so much she's coming on the podcast soon. So Yeah,…

Mahrs Schoppman: lucky you. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: I'm getting a little ahead of myself spoiler to the listeners future guests. But yeah, so we'll have those links in the website. And definitely if you are able to build to that point of getting some person Retreats and stuff. we'll highlight that as well because I think that stuff so needed and…

Mahrs Schoppman: wonderful

Jeremy Schumacher: so wonderful when the opportunity arises

Mahrs Schoppman: thank you Jeremy so much for having me. It was just really lovely to connect with you.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, for sure and to all our listeners. Thanks for tuning in. Again. This is Ben. Your therapist needs therapy. We will be back next week with another new episode. Take care everyone.

Meeting ended after 00:46:47 👋