Your Therapist Needs Therapy 65 - Treatment for the Whole Family System with Katie O’Connor

Jeremy is joined this week by fellow Family Therapy Training Institute alum Katie O’Connor. Katie is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist. Registered Art Therapist, and Certified Perinatal Mental Health Clinician. We talk about her journey into those specialty areas and the importance of finding the right therapeutic approach for each individual. Katie shares insights into balancing her professional practice with parenting, particularly during the challenges of the COVID-19 pandemic. Additional topics we cover include the evolving dynamics of family therapy, the need for flexibility, community building, and addressing trauma within family systems.

To learn more about Katie and her work, you can head over to lumoswellness.com, therapieseastassociates.com, or her listing on psidirectory.com

Jeremy has all his practice info at Wellness with Jer, and you can find him on Instagram and YouTube.

Head over to Patreon to support the show, or you can pick up some merch! We appreciate support from likes, follows, and shares as well!

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Podcasts about therapy do not replace actual therapy, and listening to a podcast about therapy does not signify a therapeutic relationship.

If you or someone you know is in crisis please call or text the nationwide crisis line at 988, or text HELLO to 741741. The Trevor Project has a crisis line for LGBTQ+ young people that can be reached by texting 678678.

Transcript

Your Therapist Needs Therapy - Katie O'Connor (2024-07-23 08:14 GMT-5) - Transcript
Attendees
Jeremy Schumacher, Katie O'connor
Transcript
This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it was created.
Jeremy Schumacher: Hello and welcome to another edition of your therapist needs therapy podcast for two mental health professionals talk about their mental health Journeys and how they navigate mental Wellness while working in the mental health field. I'm your host Jeremy Schumacher at licensed marriage and family therapist O'Connor Katie. Thanks for joining me today.
Katie O'connor: Hi Thank you so much for having me Jeremy. I'm excited to be here.
Jeremy Schumacher: We are. Graduate, I don't know We don't have a word for that. We're not alums because this is postgrad, but we did our postgrad at the same place.
Katie O'connor: That's right. We went to ftti which is the family therapy training institute here in Milwaukee.
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, a little gem in Milwaukee that not a lot of people know about but it's lovely.
Katie O'connor: Yeah, yeah has such a rich history too of being the solution focused therapy just the Legacy Institute of where that all started. So getting tradition.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah,…
Katie O'connor: Yeah. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Milwaukee Wisconsin in general is a nice history because we had Carl Whitaker here. Who's the big deal in Family Therapy? He was at Madison for very many years and…
Katie O'connor: right
Jeremy Schumacher: then into kimburg and all those solution-focused folks here in Milwaukee.
Katie O'connor: that's Yes, and eat lip check who I was lucky enough to have as a mentor for many years.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Katie O'connor: So we're not friends.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Katie O'connor: But for many years it was wonderful to learn from her. So she was still involved with the program on and I think through a lot of the ongoing trainings that they had.
Jeremy Schumacher: So we can Circle back to ftti but I always start with the same question…
Katie O'connor: Okay.
Jeremy Schumacher: which is how'd you get into the field of Mental Health?
Katie O'connor: I was just thinking about this the other day. I had an interesting experience in the therapy room about
Katie O'connor: I do a lot of EMDR work so through EMDR oftentimes that can be a really healing process.
Jeremy Schumacher: Okay.
Katie O'connor: But the process of going through it can be challenging for clients. And so it was likened to being a dentist. that it's like going to the dentist, you have to go and you're gonna feel better afterwards, but when you're heading there, it's kind of stress inducing and when I was young I wanted to be if they're not a therapist.
Katie O'connor: The thing that I found myself looking most forward to was the course about drawing so I got more into that art side and found myself also drawn to the psychology classes. And so I graduated my undergrad with the studio art degree and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Katie O'connor: dual major with psychology and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, one of those kind of winding Journeys…
Katie O'connor: then I went to grad school for art therapy. And then after our therapy school,…
Jeremy Schumacher: until you find where you're at. so I have had Emily Alexey…
Katie O'connor: I found it very important because I liked working with kids to bring in the family aspect.
Jeremy Schumacher: who we both know the Also practices here in Milwaukee.
Jeremy Schumacher: I'm talking about perinatal Health, but just for people who maybe aren't familiar with that phrase…
Katie O'connor: So then went on to the family therapy training institute to get more skills and…
Katie O'connor: knowledge about working with families.
Jeremy Schumacher: what does that kind of all encapsulate?
Katie O'connor: Yeah, and then ultimately now I specialize in perineal mental health. So that's how it all came together.
Katie O'connor: Yeah. Yes, yes.
Katie O'connor: Mm-hmm
Katie O'connor: So from my position I practice perinatal. Therapy working with young parents So mom's dad's partners.
00:05:00
Katie O'connor: not birthing partners and it kind of the beginning of a new family that transition that I think we work with oftentimes as marriage and family therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Katie O'connor: how to care for a newborn…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Katie O'connor: how to care for oneself most importantly that can get lost really frequently in the mix and so that's something that I'm fortunate to be able to be a part of…
Jeremy Schumacher: and I think
Katie O'connor: because I get to see lots of babies and lots of new parents and just be able to kind of witness the variety of responses right, sometimes it takes a while to understand and to integrate what it is to be a parent especially sometimes when we don't have The support around us that maybe we had hoped for sometimes we have to work really hard to create that support.
Jeremy Schumacher: I love making these connections especially Milwaukee…
Katie O'connor: So I'm also grateful to be part of that support for others,…
Jeremy Schumacher: because I'm a walking native and Milwaukee doesn't have the best reputation somewhat deservedly for resources in the area.
Katie O'connor: right? Yeah. Yeah. that's kind of the gist of perinatal Mental Health.
Jeremy Schumacher: But it is one of those times in our Lives having children being a new parent going through potentially a traumatic experience like giving birth where you need support and our society at large not just Milwaukee isn't necessarily designed for that. It's very individualistic often. And so it's a paradigm shift for a lot of folks to find the support that they need to work through that time in life.
Jeremy Schumacher: And I think a lot of folks what I see I predominantly working with couples not necessarily the family component, but I see a lot it's just people who struggle to ask for help when they need it. they feel like a burden or they feel like that means they're failing somehow instead of recognizing …
Katie O'connor: Right absolutely. Mm-
Jeremy Schumacher: this is a very normal part of the process. We just need to ask for help when we need it.
Katie O'connor: Yeah and certainly on both sides. I find oftentimes I like to meet this is something that we often do as couples therapist needs therapy partner as a consultant for…
Jeremy Schumacher: And yeah.
Katie O'connor: how their birthing partner is doing and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Katie O'connor: what often happens is those things get lost and there's a lot of self-sacrifice that goes along with that when oftentimes if there is for example a birth comic experience that experience is traumatizing for both the birthing partner and the non-birthing partner and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Katie O'connor: there's a lot of work that can be done to shore backup resources and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. I talk about connection so much like finding these connective moments finding these connective opportunities and…
Katie O'connor: to help both Partners heal through that. but it takes some coaxing. It takes some encouragement to get there sometimes…
Jeremy Schumacher: sometimes connecting over the fact that this is really hard.
Katie O'connor: because I think our natural responses to protect our partner and…
Jeremy Schumacher: What starts that connection?
Katie O'connor: if we protect our partners,…
Jeremy Schumacher: I'm curious. There's so much that we can talk about here.
Katie O'connor: sometimes we think that that means we can't express when we're having difficulty sometimes If we express that…
Jeremy Schumacher: Going from art therapy. You talked about EMDR. I mean were these things that you picked up adding the family component the perinatal component are these things you picked up…
Katie O'connor: if we talk about how hard it was the other person doesn't feel as alone.
Jeremy Schumacher: because of the clients you were seeing are these things that were mering your own stages in life?
Katie O'connor: And that's often such a transformational moment where things really change.
Jeremy Schumacher: What was kind of the journey to say?
Jeremy Schumacher: Hey, I want to go pick up the certification or…
Katie O'connor: And…
Katie O'connor: it just strengthens everything again fighting to be a part of. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: I want to get this training.
Katie O'connor: beautiful
Jeremy Schumacher: Okay.
00:10:00
Katie O'connor: it is interesting because I thought of it as a curiosity Journey, right and I did tend to attract and retain new parents, but it was at the same time that I was so I don't know exactly how that all works out. I wasn't doing a ton of social media or outward facing kind of work at that point in time. So just naturally kind of happened.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Katie O'connor: The EMDR came out of working with all populations really. I was working with kids families couples perinatal populations and EMDR. It just was kind of the tool to unlock working more intensively with trauma and being able to make effective change quickly oftentimes. I was seeing there was progress being made through talk therapy,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Okay.
Katie O'connor: but it just so much accelerated it when we can fold an EMDR and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, EMDR. I finds I don't practice it.
Katie O'connor: that's only specifically when people are comfortable with it.
Jeremy Schumacher: I'm not trying to it but I find it's one of those.
Katie O'connor: I think sometimes it's not the right fit and Oftentimes when I'll consult with Eve she reminds me of that. She's very helpful in that regard.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah.
Katie O'connor: It's
Katie O'connor: We all have the internal resources to care for ourselves.
Jeremy Schumacher: how does This is a weird question. I'm trying to think of how to word it.
Katie O'connor: Sometimes it's accessing that that's one of the primary tenets of solution for Focus therapy and…
Jeremy Schumacher: how does I guess coming from an art therapy background kind of inform these other components.
Katie O'connor: that's often a part of Finding the right thing for the right person right EMDR can be the right thing.
Jeremy Schumacher: Is that still something you do regularly? Is that something you've incorporated into working with families? And young parents? Is that I got my perinatal clients over here. What does that look like for you?
Katie O'connor: Right, absolutely. And so when there's an early sign that someone really really doesn't like it that is not the road to go down as a therapist. Yeah.
Katie O'connor: I like questions. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Katie O'connor: Yeah someone so oftentimes I'll see someone at the beginning and they'll express interest. So whether it's an adult or child. Yeah, I look at it the same way that I approached the EMDR if it's something that you'd like to work with you work with it. If not, it's not. However, I have found consistently that I use bad metaphors frequently in therapy. And so it is an inevitability if you are one of my clients you will hear All the way along lots and…
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, I love. The variability that comes with doing therapy.
Katie O'connor: lots of symbolism here and there just to kind of Express them some of these Concepts as we're going through it.
Jeremy Schumacher: So I'm ADHD. And when I open my own practice,…
Katie O'connor: can be difficult to wrestle with so it's a sense of third person right the way that our therapy works is
Jeremy Schumacher: I struggled a lot because everything when you open your practices about What's your Niche who's your ideal clients? And it's just like at whoever I didn't see the last hour.
Katie O'connor: Rather than holding something in or…
Jeremy Schumacher: I don't want the same thing back to back that's not good for my brain.
Katie O'connor: trying to find exactly the right words to express it. You can get really messy and…
Jeremy Schumacher: And so it's really hard to figure out…
Katie O'connor: let it out and lots of different ways that are quite therapeutic,…
Jeremy Schumacher: how to Market to move that stuff and…
Katie O'connor: right?
Jeremy Schumacher: so similar to you with all these trainings and certifications. I've got sports psychology background. I've got religious drama. I do couples work. I have all these sort of disconnected things that end up, informing each other and kind of interweaving it they just become tools as opposed to This is how I work with this client.
Katie O'connor: Getting your hands into clay and throwing it around when you're expressing anger or resentment or frustration that can be just as helpful as talking through it for three sessions right sometimes more so for some that's the right path and…
00:15:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Katie O'connor: oftentimes I find for children. It's a natural path play and art making markmaking are just such a natural path for us as adults.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Katie O'connor: Sometimes there's a lot of blocks that we have for that. And so sometimes we can dismantle that and sometimes even my artist clients may have a difficult time with that at times…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Katie O'connor: but once we get into it, it's a slight paradigm shift and it really makes a big difference.
Katie O'connor: but yeah, I think it's kind of like the right fit for the right person all the way along when I'm thinking about a big picture and…
Jeremy Schumacher: I think that's why I was drawn a couple therapy from the get-go.
Katie O'connor: the way you're asking these really good questions it helps to kind of Put those kinds. there
Jeremy Schumacher: The first time I saw couples therapy live at ftti this was when I was still in grad school. I wasn't doing my postgrad yet. But you learn you start by just watching other people do therapy behind a one-way mirror and the first time I saw a couple session I was like, that's what I want to do. So that variability like the more people you get in the room the different results. You're going to get that's just how it works which a lot of therapist the complexity that comes with it's all so different.
Katie O'connor: I mean, yes absolutely. that I can relate to that the idea of if you see someone one hour seeing someone very different the next hour.
Jeremy Schumacher: 
Katie O'connor: I think that helps us remember and to be better therapist needs therapy family.
Jeremy Schumacher: It was another student was the first couple session I saw. and so Rob Mars who we both know was my supervisor at that time and…
Katie O'connor: Every individual is so different. Sometimes that can be
Jeremy Schumacher: was trying 21
Katie O'connor: That can be useful right that can be helpful because then it really amplifies the differences. And it creates for us. I think retaining information sometimes can be a challenge at least for myself. so I work really hard to stay fantastic stay focused and take good care of myself so I can take good care of my clients too. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: It was 21 years old. So I graduate from college early and so I've been seeing clients since I was 21 years old which I look back and kind of cringe I don't know what I was talking about when I was 21,…
Katie O'connor: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: but I was very young and so I was like, this is what I want to do for the rest of my life and everyone kind of just patted me on the head. I was like, okay Jeremy like you don't know what you're talking about yet, but it was one of those. I don't know serendipitous moments…
Katie O'connor: Write it.
Jeremy Schumacher: where it's like,…
Katie O'connor: There's some.
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah that really I mean I've been doing it for 15 years and when I wasn't doing couples therapy, that was the thing. I really missed when I was working in a higher ed with college students and student athletes very cool. I love that population too, but I miss doing couples therapy.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I've added a ton to it.
Katie O'connor: There are these basic things that we learn early on as family therapist needs therapy to Skilled can reflect back in a way that we can hear from it.
Jeremy Schumacher: But that's what I like to still go back to I don't know. I like having multiple people in the room. I just think there's so much going on. it's never boring.
Jeremy Schumacher: Sometimes that's stressful. But yeah, it's good and like you said earlier being with people on this journey you see People at all these different points and I don't know. I think that's really cool and very honored to be a part of that process for folks.
Katie O'connor: And to understand it. I'm so curious. Who did you see doing the couples therapy when you were witnessing that early on?
Jeremy Schumacher: So you're a parent yourself. How is running your practice parenting…
Katie O'connor: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: if I'm doing my math correctly? I had a kid during covid which I also did how was that for you kind of balancing the professional side of things with parenting side of things. How did you navigate all that?
00:20:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Katie O'connor: Yes, absolutely it's just incredible that you were able to know that so early on that it was just never went away.
Katie O'connor: Yeah.
Katie O'connor: Yes.
Katie O'connor: Mm- Absolutely.
Katie O'connor: Mm- Yes, I have two dollars. Yeah, yeah.
Katie O'connor: You did yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Katie O'connor: yeah, so,
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, it was a weird time.
Katie O'connor: I had a really good plan Jeremy.
Katie O'connor: I had such a good plan. So it was going to move my practice to a group practice and…
Jeremy Schumacher: You have one.
Jeremy Schumacher: I don't specialize in perinatal mental health.
Katie O'connor: it's kind of a co-op model here at therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: So maybe I had less of a plan but my wife and I really comparing it to having our first we have a six year old and a three year old and…
Katie O'connor: So I moved my practice knowing that I wanted me and…
Jeremy Schumacher: so my wife's B was pretty adamant that I'd be able to be there.
Katie O'connor: my husband wanted to expand our family and…
Jeremy Schumacher: So we kind of were planning that from the get-go of we'll figure out a way to make it happen.
Katie O'connor: kind of planning for having that stability.
Jeremy Schumacher: I don't want you to be having a baby by yourself.
Katie O'connor: But just changed instantaneously as soon as I got pregnant.
Jeremy Schumacher: That's a bad setup. So she was great. My wife was very
Katie O'connor: So I got pregnant and then a month later we went into full lockdown and at that point in time as a perinatal specific therapist.
Katie O'connor: support groups for other perineal specific therapist
Jeremy Schumacher: Adamant on her birth plan from learning what she didn't like about the first go-round into having the second kid. And then it was just weird. I mean covid was a weird time. So the vaccines weren't out yet.
Katie O'connor: And then eventually when Muriel my youngest was born we were able to be together for that.
Jeremy Schumacher: Nobody really we were masking but it was so no family was allowed I would say even the Staffing at the hospital was a lot different from to our second go-round just far fewer check-ins.
Katie O'connor: So that was wonderful, but it was also very stressful at the same time.
Jeremy Schumacher: I don't know if that was second kid or…
Katie O'connor: lyrics Yeah,…
Jeremy Schumacher: because it was covid…
Katie O'connor: how about yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: but it was a different experience for sure. But yeah, I mean everybody was healthy and my wife's birth plan was pretty for the most part went off without a hitch and it was nice. It was just I think that comparison of This is not what it was like with for our first child's compared to drink covid with our second was probably the biggest thing that stuck out was just it really drove home. what a weird time. We were living through.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Katie O'connor: Absolutely. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: we
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and not that there were so many people around the delivery of Our first child was the student intern ended up delivering because It was my wife's first kid.
00:25:00
Katie O'connor: Yes, absolutely, right it really Amplified it.
Jeremy Schumacher: Everyone was like, you'll be in labor for a while.
Jeremy Schumacher: You'll be in labor for a while, and she was not. So here hold the leg and I was like, I don't want to be involved this directly with it.
Katie O'connor: Yeah at one point.
Katie O'connor: I like a colleague of mine from ftti actually was having her baby around the same time.
Jeremy Schumacher: But no so my wife was a little bit more adamant on the second time around.
Katie O'connor: I was And was just surreal you're all in masks I think that's my friend, but I'm not sure.
Katie O'connor: Just kind of being wheeled through the Maternity Ward whether infant my goodness. Yeah. it was just surreal. Yeah. I don't know. It's so hard to remember.
Jeremy Schumacher: But yeah, I don't know it was weird just right not being able to have someone meet us.
Katie O'connor: My first is 11 So comparing Staffing you probably have a really fresh memory of that with a six year old and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Nobody could bring food just kind of let's go home. I guess I don't really want to be in a hospital free vaccine.
Katie O'connor: a three year old, too.
Jeremy Schumacher: So it was weird but its from a therapy perspective. It was nice to sort of live through and relate to a lot of clients who also have young kids or got pregnant during that time frame or whatever. I don't know is a weird time in life. So I think having that first-hand experience was nice to be able to relate to people and…
Katie O'connor: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: be like, you're not crazy that did suck.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. that's where
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, that's where I spend so much on my time still in therapies with people and…
Katie O'connor: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: I have a sibling. I don't talk to from that time of our lives, but just having boundaries with family and some of The Fallout from all of that and I work with religious trauma, so a lot of the overlap between conspiratorial thinking and high control religious groups with Trump into covid just a lot of family Dynamics have shifted…
Katie O'connor: It did suck and it politically was very charged at the same time. And there was a lot of very difficult family politics that everyone…
Jeremy Schumacher: since then for a lot of the folks that I see.
Katie O'connor: who was going through that was processing at the same time and directly related to some of the fears that we had as new parents for our infants, right so that was something else Yeah.
Katie O'connor: You right.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Katie O'connor: I'm so curious what you might think about this Jeremy because I've been kind of playing with this idea in my own mind about the way that families respond to change and how oftentimes It can be high conflict or it can be freeze out cold right in response to change. But oftentimes I think families. Who survive and…
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, it's
Katie O'connor: are able to maintain that in tactness can Flex right?
Jeremy Schumacher: I think
Katie O'connor: And we talk about that a lot in Family Therapy if we can be flexible in our thinking and kind of be able to hold two realities at the same time.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I lean towards a little bit of that ladder option.
Katie O'connor: We always talk about both hands right can you have your own beliefs and…
Jeremy Schumacher: I think some of it is the internet and not in the bad way. I think some of it is the wealth of information people have that we didn't have 30 years ago.
Katie O'connor: values and still exist within the system for some it's become?
Jeremy Schumacher: So I'm always skeptical when I hear a client first or…
Katie O'connor: so rigid like you mentioned and…
Jeremy Schumacher: second session throw out a term like gaslighting doesn't mean they're using it incorrectly,…
Katie O'connor: and that you have such a specialty in this How do you think it's evolved over time?
Jeremy Schumacher: but how I as a therapist the regular population or…
Katie O'connor: Because you've been doing this work for 15 years?
Jeremy Schumacher: the cultural Zeitgeist around that word is so there are things…
Katie O'connor: have families gotten more rigid and so there are more cutoffs or…
Jeremy Schumacher: where I'm you watch some tiktoks on boundaries,…
Katie O'connor: Do they have the same amount of flexibility and…
Jeremy Schumacher: but that doesn't mean that you're doing healthy boundaries right now,…
Katie O'connor: we're just seeing more of the rigidity as therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: but I also think there's an acceptance to if this person isn't Meeting me where I'm at. If there isn't flexibility. I think more people are comfortable walking away from it and working towards building up their chosen family or their other support system.
Jeremy Schumacher: So yeah, I don't know that the rigidity is increased. I think just people are looking for that flexibility and if they're not getting it from their family of origin, they're a little more quickly able to look for it elsewhere then maybe in the past.
00:30:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah. Anything I…
Katie O'connor: running
Jeremy Schumacher: I think that's a good thing I think. I don't know. It's hard with social media because you get siled off. Even if you're trying to be intentional with it with the way algorithms work and all those things but in the world.
Katie O'connor: yes. Yes. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: I do see a lot of community building and a lot of nurturing your village and a lot of Kind of decolonizing talk and stuff like that. so I think that's good. I think people are a little bit savvier in the past where I grew up very conservative Christian like you didn't confront your issues.
Katie O'connor: Absolutely. Yeah, that's such a good point. Yeah, that is something that we work with so frequently.
Jeremy Schumacher: You just buried them because family was important and therefore being a functional family.
Katie O'connor: During these family changes right as…
Jeremy Schumacher: To everyone else was more important than whatever went on in your house.
Katie O'connor: how to care for others,…
Jeremy Schumacher: And so I think that Dynamic is less…
Katie O'connor: but also care for yourself.
Jeremy Schumacher: but for the people who are still experiencing it it's probably more rigid than it used to be.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and religion is helpful for a lot of folks. I'm not anti-religion doing the work. I'm doing I'm just really looking for patterns of rigidity. I talk about toxic theology a lot hell original sin anytime. That's really like severely dogmatic is where you start to see. Families fighting over stuff people getting excommunicated or…
Katie O'connor: Right. Yeah. Yeah. At this point in time,…
Jeremy Schumacher: having these more dramatic things.
Katie O'connor: right? Yeah,…
Jeremy Schumacher: And obviously I see people…
Katie O'connor: because in retrospect it's similarly.
Jeremy Schumacher: who have grown up in Cults or…
Katie O'connor: I look back and…
Jeremy Schumacher: survived Cults and…
Katie O'connor: I think okay.
Jeremy Schumacher: I see the more extreme versions of it,…
Katie O'connor: That probably wasn't helpful to be praying the Rosary.
Jeremy Schumacher: too, but In the midwest here, there's plenty of high control religion just as your Lutheran catholic whatever backgrounds like a lot of that is very rigid beyond the point of being helpful.
Katie O'connor: That many times and sacrificing that much suffering to Jesus on the cross like that wasn't necessarily helpful.
Katie O'connor: yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I think too I see. That intersectionality. We look at around marginalized communities, I'm gonna get on a soapbox for a second here like the abrahamic religions, especially in America are very patriarchical. So you're looking at a difference of experience. If you're a male or…
Katie O'connor: Okay. Yeah,…
Jeremy Schumacher: a female you're looking at a difference of experience.
Katie O'connor: and I have to make note my experience is very different than many of the clients.
Jeremy Schumacher: If you're a person of color or you're white you're looking at a difference of experience…
Katie O'connor: I've seen they've experienced religious.
Jeremy Schumacher: if you're gender non-conforming or…
Jeremy Schumacher: you're lgbtq+ in some way…
Katie O'connor: Values really strongly and…
Jeremy Schumacher: so again, I mean organized religion I say often the organized part is based on in group dynamics,…
Katie O'connor: helpfully. Shoring up their own sense of community and their faith is so much to them.
Jeremy Schumacher: and if you're not part of the in group, Then that's not a plus from origin or…
Katie O'connor: So my experience is just slightly different.
Jeremy Schumacher: the organization's perspective. And so I think if you're in the in-group,…
Katie O'connor: the other
Jeremy Schumacher: it can be very safe and comforting and I think if you're in the out group, it can be very alienating and really unhealthy.
Jeremy Schumacher: so yeah, That's a weird cultural shift, too. I mean we are of probably the largest. shifts away from religion in America demographic wise but we also have a political party that is indecipherable from a religious movement. So It's a weird time. To kind of have both those things happening at the same time.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: it's such a weird I talk about this with my lgbtq clients a lot It's so weird the amount of community that's available to people that wasn't I think with perinatal mental health as well. there's online groups. There's a lot of information on the internet. There's all these moms Facebook groups like Community is really great and accessible.
00:35:00
Jeremy Schumacher: I'm getting a lot of feedback here. Community is really great and…
Katie O'connor: Yeah, and also just fascinating to think of from assistant systemic point of view,…
Jeremy Schumacher: accessible but there's all the political strife.
Katie O'connor: right the shifts back and forth and the unbalancing and rebalancing and…
Jeremy Schumacher: And that's weird.
Katie O'connor: just how that looks in terms of personal experience within a big system. Sometimes there's ways to kind of buffer from that and sometimes there are ways that it's impossible to offer from it and reproductive mental health wise. There are a lot of ways that we can't offer from it that they're pretty scary right now for a lot of books. Yeah.
Katie O'connor: I LL
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Katie O'connor: mind if
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah for And Milwaukee's High permission. They do so much together.
Katie O'connor: Yeah. Yeah, So some of those spaces aren't they up from the outside they look very welcoming and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Just lovely.
Katie O'connor: helpful and then once in them, it can be a source of a lot of anxiety and stress and so being really careful about those groups. And where one finds oneself there.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, shout out to Milwaukee.
Katie O'connor: It's another.
Jeremy Schumacher: I'm a native so
Katie O'connor: Yeah, it's another huge space to navigate. We do have a really nice support group here in Milwaukee that maintains the safety of the group really well for moms mental health initiative and we were rarely fortunate to have them here.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah for A little bit of a left turn here Katie.
Katie O'connor: They provide peer support and then group support and…
Jeremy Schumacher: What does self-care look like?
Katie O'connor: then they moderate their Facebook group really closely.
Jeremy Schumacher: What is cultivating joy in your life look like…
Katie O'connor: Shout out to them.
Jeremy Schumacher: how has that shifted as your career path has shifted.
Katie O'connor: Yeah, all the people involved there. I don't know. I just think that it's wonderful for people to have that right now, especially.
Katie O'connor: Yes. Absolutely Travis Trott who used to be with us here at ist Therapy. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Katie O'connor: Yeah for sure.
Katie O'connor: Just for me, it looks like.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Katie O'connor: I work three days a week very rigidly. Because I know that for me boundaries have to be very very clear. So that I can take care of my kids right when I was in early practice. I was doing all the things at once and that became a recipe for Burnout pretty quickly. So
Katie O'connor: Focusing in on a specific population and specializing has been critical to that working three days a week and then being with my kids the other day. So the week it's really nice this summer…
Jeremy Schumacher: very cool
Katie O'connor: because my oldest is home with my young one and they get to enjoy that relationship too. Right and unique way we go on a lot of Adventures.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Katie O'connor: We have a summer bucket list that we're checking things are of and I do a lot of hot yoga because I find that the intensity of our work sometimes so I need to match it to really kind of release it physically emotionally to kind of come back to status quo for myself.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I mean. it's changed a lot. before I had kids it was almost exclusively. physical activity and that I've had my ADHD diagnosis for a while. I got diagnosed in my postgrad. So it's twenty two or twenty three. I'm 36 So I've had it for a while, but when I left organized religion. officially my relationship to my diagnosis changed a lot and
00:40:00
Jeremy Schumacher: I Felts it differently. I got in touch with my body differently. So self-care for a while was go work out play volleyball any available hour like burn calories and…
Katie O'connor: Just like finding new things. I need a lot of spontaneity and change in my life. So because I'm settled in this stage of life.
Jeremy Schumacher: get it all out and it's shifted to a lot more rest and relaxation.
Katie O'connor: I have to really seek that out. So we've been doing a lot of hiking and kind of finding different Adventures national parks and…
Jeremy Schumacher: It's still exercise a lot. That still is the thing that gives me a lot of dopamine and…
Katie O'connor: hanging out with friends and…
Jeremy Schumacher: helps me process emotions in a way that I'm not intellectualizing them,…
Katie O'connor: doing some big trips recently a dear friend of mine and…
Jeremy Schumacher: which is what I default through.
Katie O'connor: I went to India last year and…
Katie O'connor: that was a really really big thing.
Jeremy Schumacher: but I Yeah.
Katie O'connor: So, yeah. Yeah, so all of that kind of adds up to how I like to care for myself and then just planning days when I'm not doing anything too, that seems to be really critical. Keeping both sides going the challenge in the adventure and then the just really recharging batteries too. Yeah. you Jeremy, how do you do it?
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I spent a lot of time out on bodies of water. I have a paddle boards. I like to go out with my boys. So we go to this whole family and I like to just go up by myself, too. It's very calming fire and…
Katie O'connor: responsibility
Jeremy Schumacher: water have always been really stimulating for my brain and when I'm well stimulated and calm so I'll have a Red Bull and get sleepy like that's my ADHD. So I think it's a lot of time in nature and carving out my work schedule just looks so much different than it ever did before so I don't work on Wednesday. So I always have a day off I work two days and then have a day off just the way the weekend works and with Wednesdays and so that's been really nice and I gotten into float tanks recently that's been
Katie O'connor: that's
Jeremy Schumacher: so that's been really nice and then, doing my own work really my first guest on the
Katie O'connor: Yeah, Yeah, I understand that. Yeah.
Katie O'connor: Yeah.
Katie O'connor: My husband loves that. Yeah. Yeah.
Meeting ended after 00:46:49 👋