Your Therapist Needs Therapy 74 - Burnout and Career Change with Abby Carncross

This week Jeremy gets to chat with Abby Carncross from Every Little Fiber. Abby shares her transition from nursing to school counseling before ultimately pursuing professional counseling. They discuss the impact of a personal health crisis, and Abby’s decision to shift careers to better align with her passion for helping others. Abby shares insights on burnout, coping mechanisms, and the challenges of balancing mental health support within school systems and private practice.

To learn more about Abby and her work, head over to everylittlefiber.com or follow her practice on Instagram. Check back in a few weeks when Jeremy gets to talk with Taylor, the other half of the Every Little Fiber team!

Jeremy has all his practice info at Wellness with Jer, and you can find him on Instagram and YouTube.

Head over to Patreon to support the show, or you can pick up some merch! We appreciate support from likes, follows, and shares as well!

-----

Podcasts about therapy do not replace actual therapy, and listening to a podcast about therapy does not signify a therapeutic relationship.

If you or someone you know is in crisis please call or text the nationwide crisis line at 988, or text HELLO to 741741. The Trevor Project has a crisis line for LGBTQ+ young people that can be reached by texting 678678.

Transcript

Your Therapist Needs Therapy - Abby Carncross – 2024/09/25 12:00 CDT – Transcript
Attendees
Abby Carncross, Jeremy Schumacher
Transcript
Jeremy Schumacher: Hello and Welcome to another edition of your therapist needs rap The podcast for two mental health professionals, talk about their mental health journey and how they navigate. To wellness while working in the mental health field. I'm your host Jeremy Schumacher, licensed marriage and family therapist the show head over to Patreon.com/wellness with Jair. I'm a mental not a professional podcaster. So any likes or shares or subscribes is all really helpful. Today, I'm joined with a local Carncross Abby. Thanks for joining me today.
Abby Carncross: Thanks for having me.
Jeremy Schumacher: I start with the same question every episode, which is, how did you get into the mental health field?
Abby Carncross: Yeah, so it's been a bit of a roundabout journey to get to where I'm at right now As a kid really struggled with anxiety, I was always kind of told that I was a warrior wasn't really given direction on putting the naming anxiety, to what I was feeling. and then kind of went into college. I was actually in nursing school for the first two years of college. Thought I wanted to do the medical field realize I don't like needles so definitely not for me. So pivoted and…
Jeremy Schumacher: It sure.
Abby Carncross: went more towards the psychology route and then ended up getting my master's degree in school counseling. decided to go that route with the counseling platform and then was a school counselor for a few years, Covid, hit and Really changed the way that schools were functioning.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Abby Carncross: kind of became more of like a substitute teacher than a counselor, which is not really what I went into the field for I had some pretty major health issues in 2021 right in the middle of covid.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Abby Carncross: I went into cardiac arrest randomly, really was super healthy. Didn't have many health issues before then and that experience being in a hospital during Covid couldn't have any visitors or my family kind of changed my perspective in Just how we treat people in a professional setting, from both a mental health, and a medical side of things. So
Abby Carncross: Recovered from that. And then decided to go back to get an additional degree in professional counseling. Works at a behavioral health hospital for a couple years, met a lot of really amazing therapist needs.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah. And I want to talk about the private practice a little bit more but there's so much in that story to unpack.
Abby Carncross: Yeah, absolutely.
Jeremy Schumacher: So I think most of the guests I've had on the podcast have this idea of they want to help people. And I'm curious…
Abby Carncross: Right.
Jeremy Schumacher: what you're sort of upbringing was because I did the same thing that you did. As far as I went the medical route, I was pre-med and psych double major until I got to okem, too. And was like, that medical school, things not gonna happen.
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: So, I'm curious, what was the messaging around, That? Was it sort of, like, I'm gonna be a doctor or nurse because that's how you help people. Did you have an awareness of some of the mental health options, or was that just later in life?
Abby Carncross: Yeah, so my mom actually was a social studies teacher and I always really was kind of thinking that's what I wanted to do because it was, helping kids and really being in environment where I was impactful to other people which is that helping profession still. And as I went through high school, the conversation around compensation and public education came around and decided that I could still help people and be a nurse and really kind of started going that direction of learning medical terminology. Got my CNA certification and I was I can do this. I'm a right at this. So that's kind of how I started going towards the nursing school pathway.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah, I love that I took Latin and in high school which is a waste of time studying a dead language…
Abby Carncross: Yeah. Yep.
Jeremy Schumacher: but because I was like, that'll help in med school in all the disease names and medications that have these Latin bases.
Jeremy Schumacher: so when did the school counseling thing, sort of Shift, or when were you aware? Hey, this might be the better fit, obviously the fear of needles and some of those things,…
Abby Carncross: He actually.
Jeremy Schumacher: but how the pivot then to the psychology side of things,
Abby Carncross: So, throughout my education, even back to Middle High school. I really struggled with memorization math was definitely not my strong suit. Both my younger sisters are amazing at math and they've chosen careers that are more suited for the way that their brain works, but definitely not. My strong suit. So when I was in college, a lot of nursing is math, which is what I slowly learned. And you…
00:05:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Abby Carncross: really struggled wasn't happy.
Abby Carncross: kind of leaned on our teammates. I ran cross country and track in college. So, They were in more the Medical mental health side of things and helped kind of guide me towards school counseling.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Awesome Pre-covid. we have to create this demarcation now,…
Abby Carncross: Yes.
Jeremy Schumacher: My dad's at school counselor.
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Both my parents are teachers. My dad's school counselor as well. It's one of those professions that I think kids in school, don't appreciate. And then all the adults in the world are like we just can throw a school counselor at every problem and that'll solve it. So There's a weird kind of juxtaposition between maybe how the kids and the people who you're in the building with every day responds to the profession of school counseling. And then how the adults view, it is that accurate to say,
Abby Carncross: I think so, I mean when you think of a school counselor now I worked at a middle school of 300 kids and I was only school counselor in the entire middle school and this was kind of in the transition of Post- beginning on and a lot of mental health issues, came out of covid and people had to,…
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah.
Abby Carncross: forced isolation. Which is
Abby Carncross: and that primary depression, symptom that people face and when they came back to school, it was a rough transition, a lot of kids needed support and guidance and how to process what just happened and this pandemic. So, It just wasn't feasible for me to support all these kids and help them in the way I wanted to.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I don't want to complain about society at large because I do that often, but …
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: it is one of those mental health, is this amorphous sort of blob? And, let's just throw the mental health professionals at it. But it's a system that doesn't necessarily support or staff things appropriately where you think of How many kids are needed?
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: A lot of schools now have sort of that floating school psychologist who's working? they're in the building one day a week or two days a week at different schools and…
Abby Carncross: Right.
Jeremy Schumacher: I'm gonna say pretty confidently. That's not ever gonna meet the need for what kids actually have going through not just A tough time of life as their brains start developing and school gets harder and a lot of different Health issues can pop up in that time of life but also just for Life transitions. Their parents are getting divorced, their friend moves away. There's the global pandemic. Another school shooting pick a thing. and…
Abby Carncross: Right.
Jeremy Schumacher: to say we have a school psychologist. Who's on staff? One in the building two days a week? That's good. Like that math doesn't math.
Abby Carncross: Mm- Yeah, and it is really unfortunate and I quickly learned that I was not really fulfilling my overall goal of a profession of helping others and, that's kind of what steered me to going the professional route of realizing. I can help more people. If I had this additional experience and ability to treat more people outside of what I could do is a school counselor.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah. and covid I was in higher ed at the time I was doing mental health for student athletes, which Doubly brutal. Because most of them, they're only coping. Mechanism was being in a sport and…
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: sports got taken away. They lost their team. They couldn't go to the gym to work out, pretty much everything that Athletes functional in that time was taken away from them.
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: In addition to lots of panic about school and All that stuff. So a very stressful time, I'm curious if you don't mind sharing a little bit about kind of how you navigated that writing the edge of burnout being burned out. I'm guessing, what's the comet experience for anyone working in a school setting at that time? How did you sort of navigate taking care of yourself before coming to the realization? Hey, there's a different route. I want to take here.
Abby Carncross: Yeah, so ironically running is always been a huge outlet for me. I use it in college when I was competing and then post college I decided to train for a couple marathons, which was, entirely different beast of itself. But a lot of it was spending time with friends and family and making sure that I was doing valued activities outside of my job to kind of balance the kind of brick wall. I felt like I was hitting when I was at my job so that was kind of more.
00:10:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Abby Carncross: So just being mindful of what I needed outside of the workplace.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, which is super important. One of the things that made covid so hard was not being able to necessarily gather with people in the way that was natural to us or that were wired for And one of those I would say lingering sort of cultural traumas that doesn't have a clean ending.
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: it's our brains, our storytelling and they want To kind of put a bow there wants to be a clear conclusion to a lot of things. And so one of those lingering ongoing, sort of things I mentioned school shooting early is like that.
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Also is like this lingering crisis because there is no resolution I was in elementary school when Columbine happened and we haven't changed anything since then so there's sort of this still open wound for a lot of folks, where maybe the burnout has subsided,…
Abby Carncross: Right.
Jeremy Schumacher: maybe a lot of those stressors have subsided but it's a messy thing for our mental health to, not be able to put a bow on it and say This chapter's closed. This makes sense. We can kind of turn the page.
Abby Carncross: And I think, that what really stands out to me when you were talking about, that is like that fear of the unknown and, we always want kids to feel safe, going to school. I mean, I feel like should be a given even as parents sending them to school. I can't imagine on, being in a situation where That is something that I have to be more mindful of, and …
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Abby Carncross: We could talk all day about the broken of the school system and what they could need more But I do think Health is a pretty big gap in quality education for a lot of these kids.
Jeremy Schumacher: And I think people are aware of that, but just saying it as a talking point is different than funding it or supporting it appropriately.
Abby Carncross: Absolutely. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Which is sort of where we're in this holding pattern as a profession, I would say on the professional side of things like man, the research is all there but we're not in charge of our own funding unfortunately.
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Abby Carncross: Mm-hmm
Jeremy Schumacher: so then you have this health crisis that hits And…
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: if something like running has been like that big coping mechanism for you and…
Abby Carncross: Yep.
Jeremy Schumacher: that physical outlet, when your body does a thing that it's not supposed to do.
Abby Carncross: Right, right? Yeah. And I
Jeremy Schumacher: That not only those physical impacts, but then that mental health, impacts of not being able to trust or know what's going on next again, that fear of the unknown.
Abby Carncross: Yeah, absolutely. so something I'm sorting through today is the cause of the cardiac arrest is really unknown. I never really got that.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Abby Carncross: That closure this is what caused it. And I think I see that too in a lot of the clients that I see is people want an answer or reason behind why they might be feeling the way they do. And I think I can resonate with that of, I had this Basically.
Abby Carncross: Near-death experience and don't have an answer for it. So, I recently got back into running earlier this year, and it's a little bit scary. Going for a run and, you…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Abby Carncross: not knowing how my body's gonna react and kind of made my mission. obviously, with monitoring with my doctors, I'm running a half marathon in a few weeks and that's kind of been my comeback for proving to myself.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Abby Carncross: I am. Okay, I am healthy and even though it's scary, I can do this.
Jeremy Schumacher: And that's such a common experience, even for known things at home.
Abby Carncross: Young.
Jeremy Schumacher: And I coach women's volleyball so many torn ACLs. …
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: your heels, you've done everything to recover, but those first few times, you're out on the court, playing at game speed, like those nerves.
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Are there that anxiety of could it happen? Again, is my body gonna respond the way need it to. Injuries are obviously, we see the physical component, but that mental health component I'm going to say it's a real mind f*** genuinely.
Abby Carncross: What definitely? Yes.
Jeremy Schumacher: because you don't know if it's going to do and you kind of have to almost Desensitize your brain to That worry of look I can do One foot in front of the other. I can jump. I I can do these things and it's going to respond the way I want. And then that added layer of not knowing what cost it. Great. So I would imagine some lingering anxiety.
00:15:00
Abby Carncross: Absolutely, I think even after The hospitals say that I had and Being discharged and is okay, we don't know why, but you look good luck and the helplessness that I experienced after that.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Abby Carncross: I mean, I had a lot of broken ribs and was in a lot of pain and also really struggled with the depression of kind of losing this security ahead and knowing I was a healthy individual. I was taking care of myself and now I have to rely on others, to take care of me and it was definitely a moment that I felt,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Abby Carncross: A lot of weakness and it's kind of humbled me today to a lot of my clients stories and where they come from to understand that feeling as well.
Jeremy Schumacher: and that loss of identity, again, I did mental health with athletes for so long,…
Abby Carncross: Absolutely.
Jeremy Schumacher: even just graduating sometimes your senior year of an athletic and…
Abby Carncross: Okay.
Jeremy Schumacher: you're like, what do I do? I'm done with my sport question mark,…
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: most and 99% of people don't go pro in their sport so It's just one of those things and…
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: again not only is it a coping skill and there's community around it but it is part of your identity to be a healthy person and able-bodied person to be a competitor.
Abby Carncross: Mm-hmm
Jeremy Schumacher: Those are all important parts of people's Identity, especially if they grew up doing the same sport.
Abby Carncross: Yeah, absolutely. And I was really fortunate to have a amazing collegiate coach and he was really great about making sure we were taking care of ourselves outside of our sport. I went to a D3 school, so honestly I was kind of running for fun and to meet people.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Abby Carncross: And I formed some really great friendships on that team and still connect outside of there too. you go through a lot in college, a lot of identifying who you are, what you want to do with your life. I mean at 18 years old, you're being asked to decide career, you want to do for the rest of your life and that's pretty scary. So I was really fortunate to have a really great support system with my coach and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Abby Carncross: my teammates.
Jeremy Schumacher: And so going through that process of Post athletic career and reevaluating as adults. We don't stop doing sports. It just looks different. It's not organized for us the same way.
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: But yeah, that injury. It's As a mental health provider,…
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: who's worked with athletes. I hear you. I saw so many people struggle with now what?
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Because I thought I could do all these things, I thought I could just do the hard thing and it was just effort. It was just show up and do the thing and I'm cool and now it's not that my body's not doing what I want.
Abby Carncross: Right.
Jeremy Schumacher: So then coming out of that transitioning to Let's go get another degree. Different. Licensure.
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: How is that journey? For you. I'm always curious for people who go back to school. What? It's like,…
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: because I don't know. I think we stereotypically have this idea of school is that 18 to 22 year old range? And that's when you do it and then right, you're supposed to do that thing for the rest of your life. Even when we have mountains of research that says, 65%, people change their college, major Americans, have between three to seven different career paths in their lifetime. So we know this is a typical experience and yet we don't hold a lot of space or talk about it. Very often.
Abby Carncross: I think, I
Abby Carncross: when I was deciding on going back to, get that additional degree, it was only I think a few more classes and then a practicum Right?
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Abby Carncross: I really felt like I wanted to change the career path, I never planned on going to school for four years and then additional four years and schools. Never my favorite thing. Ironically, I was diagnosed with ADHD long after I was done with my master's program…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Abby Carncross: which makes a lot of sense in hindsight now. But I really fell in love with it. I had a really great on Practicum. My supervisor was awesome and her core therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: I love that, I think. Not to again, complain about systems. But it is a bad system to throw 18 to 22 year olds into this sort of world to expect that. They know what they want to do and can do it. we don't have a good. Internship program, We don't have Jeremy Man. again, there are some exceptions plumber electrician. There are some hands-on learning spaces, but a lot of it is.
00:20:00
Jeremy Schumacher: We don't have any experience in our chosen career path in high…
Abby Carncross: .
Jeremy Schumacher: By the time we're supposed to be picking our career path and…
Abby Carncross: Yep.
Jeremy Schumacher: knowing what some of that looks like you can correct me if I overstate something here. Again, my dad's school counselor but he's been doing it for forever so I don't want to oversimplify…
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: but the big difference between a school counselor and…
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: someone who's like an LPC or an LFT, is being able to diagnose and that kind of higher level of care, where a lot of times for school counseling, because their structure in the system, isn't there to do full on treatment, you're gonna refer something like a full-blown diagnosis out to a provider. Whereas now you're on the other side of it of getting those referrals to see that person who has anxiety has depression, has the higher level mental health, that requires that next level of treatment.
Abby Carncross: Yeah, I think my approach as a clinician I always say we have to diagnose for insurance purposes and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yes.
Abby Carncross: at times with 504 is IEPs stuff like that with the school system, I feel like my stance is always treated the symptoms and not necessarily the diagnosis. a lot of times, with mental health stigma in general when you give it someone a diagnosis. there's a certain amount of weight that sometimes comes with that and I really try to reiterate to my clients that you could be experiencing depression and it could look totally different than someone else. I see. So that's…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Abby Carncross: why I think that I have to diagnose and I also think that it's important to view the whole person and not just one diagnosis.
Jeremy Schumacher: And I've been doing mental health for 15 years. it's a weird experience because I've sort of swung all the way back around on specific diagnosis. I would say like you mentioned late stage diagnosis ADHD, I was diagnosed my last semester of postgrad it's not a super useful time to get your diagnosis but I work with a lot of people who are nerve divergent and are getting a diagnosis. They're late 20s and their 30s and their 40s even in some cases and I do think that a diagnosis like that is super helpful. understanding why your brain is doing the thing that it's doing is really helpful. Whereas I don't to personality disorders I think they're s** diagnosis. I think it's Describing symptoms not explaining where it's coming from and…
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: so that those diagnoses that help people understand what's going on. So they can make different choices or have more autonomy. Is really helpful for people. They don't feel crazy anymore it's not lack of willpower, talk about ADHD. It's not, because I'm lazy. It's because of this. So, I think some diagnosis when they're done well, and they fit for the client really work. and I think there's still some of the distastefulness of slapping a label on this group of symptoms and now you're just bipolar for the rest of your life. Right now you're just depressed for the rest of your life I don't like that type of diagnosis. I think too many clinicians are still doing it that way as that, explains everything whereas that's not helpful if it's not catered to what the clients actually experiencing
Abby Carncross: And I think it comes down to the function of giving a diagnosis. I mean, I totally agree. It can be really affirming especially to someone who wants an explanation to what they're feeling. And it also needs to be a delicate balance of Not becoming their identity. I mean, I have a lot of clients come in and say, I am bipolar and it's hang on a second. you are not like you don't hold bipolar and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Abby Carncross: that's like your identity. It's like I have bipolar and this is how it presents for me, and this is what I can do to. And navigated. So I agree it gives a good umbrella of guidance of these different tools can help with this specific diagnosis and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Abby Carncross: we need to make sure it's not going to be your whole identity.
Jeremy Schumacher: And Again I think when it is helpful for the client it makes a lot of sense.
Abby Carncross: Yeah. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yes, we're trained. How to do it? Because we have to go through insurance. I don't take insurance at this point, so I don't have to diagnose but ADHD tends to be one because of my own lived experience and my expertise around it but I don't like to call it expertise my lived experience and a lot of experience with clients working with it but it's also one of those things where it is really helpful to get the diagnosis. We're depression, there's all these different symptoms that might show up even with AD.
Abby Carncross: Still.
Jeremy Schumacher: I guess there's 20 different diagnostic criteria. You need six of them for a diagnosis like that can look really different for different people,…
00:25:00
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: which is why so many of us feel through the cracks early in our life and…
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: didn't get diagnosed because we didn't fit what kind of the diagnostic criteria at the time. We're designed to catch.
Abby Carncross: And I think, when I was getting evaluated for ADHD, a lot of the symptoms I experience are more of like the women with ADHD, which is I feel constantly coming up with new things. And once I talked to my mom about it, after I had the evaluation, she's like, my gosh, this makes so much sense, because when I was in elementary school,…
Jeremy Schumacher: And yeah.
Abby Carncross: it was like adhd's. This hyperactive camp pay attention like problem, behavior, kind of kid and that never really fit me. I was the anxious warrior, followed all the rules, kind of kid. which at the time,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Abby Carncross: that didn't actually ADHD.
Jeremy Schumacher: ADHD, especially through the 90s and early 2000s was pretty much just catching hyperactive boys.
Abby Carncross: Yeah, exactly.
Jeremy Schumacher: Which The diagnosis actually works is not how neurodivergence actually works. Is pretty split pretty evenly between Different genders.
Abby Carncross: Mm-hmm
Jeremy Schumacher: So it's not like a thing.
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: But again that's where the medical model and the deficit approach really only catches certain people who are not fitting into society. Standards well enough as opposed to saying How is this thing affecting you personally?
Abby Carncross: Right.
Abby Carncross: Mm- Yeah, I think that comes down to for me staying organized and remembering a lot of different things is hard and what was cool about it leaving a big organization where you were taught to do your job, a certain way, and coming now to the outpatient world, I get to make it my own and I get to organize and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Abby Carncross: take notes in a way that makes sense for my brain and then not necessarily someone else. So that's been kind of fun and navigate What works for me and not necessarily being told a specific protocol that I have to follow.
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, and obviously This is a topic I cover a lot. I'm like, how to run a private practice, but you show up more authentically when you're doing it. The way that makes sense to you and your clients pick up on that. That's meaningful. I have some weird quirky, redundancies, especially around billing, and I need to do things multiple times, so I don't forget. And that might not make sense to somebody else's brains.
Abby Carncross: Yes.
Jeremy Schumacher: Even I've talked to other providers who are ADHD themselves and they're like, Why do you do it that way? That's just extra work and I'm like, I don't know. But it's a catch like it works well for me, it helps me. Stay on top of it. So I do it that way. and again, when you are not having to meet someone else's standards, when you're not trying to follow in Aurora or a freighter protocol or a Rogers protocol, you can do it in a way that Helps you and then you have more mental energy. You have more space to show up authentically for your clients.
Abby Carncross: Yeah, and I think it's cool is being an outpatient setting with being able to pull from all these different modalities that I've learned and learning new things too. And I really take a person-centered approach with my clients of,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Abby Carncross: okay gbt's. Not really working for you. Maybe we need to go back and give some just basic education on how your brain works, and the CBT triangle and all those kinds of things.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Abby Carncross: So it's been fun to make it my own and do what works for me?
Jeremy Schumacher: And there isn't one model that fits everyone and…
Abby Carncross: Right.
Jeremy Schumacher: and even that idea when I was going through grad school, the idea of being like an eclectic or an integrative was the term back then, an integrative therapist needs.
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Tell me I fit in this box and I'm gonna try and prove all the ways in which I don't because that's some of my, persistent and drive for autonomy showing up no. I'm gonna do the exact opposite if you force me to do it that way. So, I think it just again opens up a lot of space for us as providers to show up in an authentic and a genuine way. It's less of that, hierarchical Expert and patience. Even like I use client. Usually, as my term to refer, to the people, I'm working with. And I don't love that it's capitalistic which I'm not on board with, but it still is a little bit of a power dynamic but definitely don't want to talk about patient. I don't use the medical model and so even little language like that, I think let's clients know. And again there's a time and a place for the medical model. I'm not throwing it totally under the bus. But trying to say this is…
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: how I work. And if you want to work with me, this is what you're gonna get and that works really well for some people. And some people are like Now, I want worksheets. I want homework, I want the very structured thing and I'm like, awesome. Here are some people who are really good at that.
00:30:00
Abby Carncross: And funny that you mentioned that random thought I'd use the word patient charting at Rogers and then client when in outpatient so switching my brain from something I've done for a long time and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Abby Carncross: is also kind of a trips me up at times.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, it is weird, different jargony language and even just, I mean how you write notes, people do down people do,…
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: dark people do soap. there's all these different silly acronyms and…
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: have to do it this way. And again, I'm a bit big advocate for getting into private practice, get in off insurance panels. I've been in the field for a long time. So I'm at a place where I'm comfortable to do that, I know that's not accessible to everyone's privileged place that I'm in, but I do think at this stage in my career. That's what lets me show up the way I want. It's ethically aligned with how I want to practice and that gets clients who want to work with me to me faster and gives me more space to work with them. So I'm a big fan of that.
Abby Carncross: yeah, I think my experience at Rogers is on.
Abby Carncross: I was working in the PHP IOP level care, and some people don't know this, but a lot of times we get patients with Medicaid and they can't get residential Medicaid, doesn't cover residential. And it was really this heartening to, be a therapist needs therapy for free.
Jeremy Schumacher: No.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Abby Carncross: But this is a career, I have to make money and, pay my bills. But I do feel like
Abby Carncross: That was something and still something that I'm really passionate about is providing access to people who can't receive it or on. There's some kind of barrier with that.
Jeremy Schumacher: For It's this back and forth of How do we see as many people as we can? And we didn't pick capitalism either.
Abby Carncross: Yup.
Jeremy Schumacher: We were also born into it so we have to pay our bills And it's an uncomfortable space as a marriage therapist,…
Abby Carncross: I know.
Jeremy Schumacher: the support systems around.
Abby Carncross: Yep.
Jeremy Schumacher: It aren't there. So we have these dead ends that we're walking and people's journeys with them and It's very Unhelpful Unsatisfying it's a very frustrating process to run into insurance. It's only going to cover this number of sessions or insurance isn't going to cover that diagnosis or again, as a marriage therapist needs.
Jeremy Schumacher: Sometimes we're done, but sometimes it's a longer process. So just all these bureaucratic sort of red tape, sort of things that people run into. And Here's my diatribe about capitalism but it is a punishment in America to be poor,…
Abby Carncross: .
Jeremy Schumacher: like to not have resources.
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: There's all these extra hoops to jump through instead of the people who are well resourced, they get to cut through all that red tape or skip it. And for the people who are not well resourced, they have to do even more work. And that's the policy choice, not unnecessary thing.
Abby Carncross: And I think it's frustrating being in this helping profession and obviously, everyone kind of became a therapist needs.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: And the insurance companies, ultimately, is where all this money is going, I'll wrap up our diet tribe here,…
00:35:00
Abby Carncross: Yeah, right.
Jeremy Schumacher: but there's seven major insurance providers in America who all made over a billion dollars to profit last year. That's where's It's not going to providers. It is going to these other entities serving as a middleman purely to make profit.
Jeremy Schumacher: Which is why won't work doing it the way we're doing it. We need to change it, But there are some slowly small packs, is a really great outcome since covid, where different providers can see people across state lines and that opened up drink covid because it just needed to. But then they tighten it back up unnecessarily and…
Abby Carncross: Right.
Jeremy Schumacher: all the different providers have kind of come together. So that's dumb, don't do that. we need to be able to see One of my specialties is religious trauma and there aren't a lot of providers who do that. So being able to see people in different states makes a huge difference for people who are in rural communities or can't see someone because of They're in a cults maybe or whatever where seeing someone in their local community is going to put them at risk. And so there are some changes.
Abby Carncross: Know.
Jeremy Schumacher: I don't like to be doom and gloom about it. I'd like to be realistic about. Yeah, it's s***'s broken.
Abby Carncross: Right. Yeah, exactly.
Jeremy Schumacher: And we know how it's broken. we need to change it. But it needs to change faster than it is. There are some changes Abby,…
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: tell me a little bit about every little fiber. How did that come about? I contacted you just reading about the reading on the website and loving the approach really vibing with it.
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Tell me about how that all sort of came together where you're at now.
Abby Carncross: So I met Taylor. Hi Rogers. She was eating disorder dietician and one of the programs I initially was working with. And on times we had breaks, we talked about this dream of having, a clinic who provide care to people. she eventually wants a teaching kitchen to teach people how to make meals, and how to grocery shop. And, …
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Abby Carncross: we have this big dream of what we wanted and it got to the point where we felt like, we wanted to do something. That was our own and not necessarily falling in like a certain protocol.
Abby Carncross: So, she actually took the jump before. I still had my in training license at the time. So couldn't practice independently. She started. the outpatient thing, last October, so coming up on a year now, and I just joined her in July, so pretty new for me, but it's been a lot of fun. We have really made it our own, we're offering joyful movement groups, we just had an open house where we focused on the six pillars of wellness and it's been cool to work collaboratively with her especially with eating disorder clients or those that are needing both nutrition and mental health counseling. So just kind of trying to prioritize the overall wellness and that it's not kind of just one thing. It can be many things, focus on.
Jeremy Schumacher: And they love obviously holistic can be a buzzword that people throw around. I think collaborative is too those are words that every therapist needs.
Abby Carncross: Yeah. Yeah.
Abby Carncross: Of course. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Therapy Person's our nutritional intake. Might need to be tweaked a little bit and research shows. Having a healthy diet, having regular exercise and sleeping. that makes a 40% improvement in people's mental health and none of that is specifically mental health related, that's kind of physical stuff that we're doing.
Abby Carncross: Yeah, I think that one of the things that I do with a lot of clients is just the sorting values and identifying what's important to you and what are some behavioral changes? We can make to meet those goals or maybe areas that we've been lacking in and I don't know about you, but I feel like becoming an adult after college is, How do I feed myself? Okay, I actually have to make meals and grocery shopping, and all those kinds of things.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Abby Carncross: So sometimes that kind of falls to the wayside and, I know Taylor really enjoys the young adults, navigating that journey on but, Making sure that we're meeting all areas of wellness and not just the mental health piece, as you said to make sure that we're living the healthiest life possible.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah. And I say this all the time in therapy, your brain is part of your body. It isn't mental…
Abby Carncross: .
Jeremy Schumacher: isn't separate from physical health. They're the same thing. and yeah, there's just a lot of misinformation, I think around healthy eating and there's a lot of misinformation around. How again that brain got connection. I think,…
00:40:00
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: I don't think that's fully accepted yet. everyone knows about it. Let alone, everyone knows what to do on an individual level. But this idea that as we get older, I'm a metabolism. Slow sound, like that's recently been proven, to be false. It's almost exclusively because we become less active. As we get older, it's lifestyle stuff, not a biological thing. And so yeah, how do you grocery shop where do you get your food? How do you fuel yourself appropriately? One of the things I talk about with clients. It's usually couched and stress relief, but it's about physical movement. Can you go for a walk over your lunch break? finding 10 minutes here or 15 minutes there. Not everyone has an extra hour to go to the gym. So how do we move regularly? How do we get up and go to the water cooler? a couple times over the hours or not, just sitting for so long.
Abby Carncross: When people think of exercise, I think automatically jumping to okay, I need to lift and go to the gym or run go for a bike ride. But I think that physical activity and just Overall exercise can be even more than that. It can just be taking your dog for a walk or walking through the park.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Abby Carncross: It doesn't have to be again that one size fits all kind of narrative of what exercise is that's important to know too.
Jeremy Schumacher: And when I talk about exercise, talk about elevated, heart rate for 20, 25 minutes. that's…
Abby Carncross: No.
Jeremy Schumacher: what we need for heart health. Long-term that's what we need for cardiovascular health, long term You don't have to do weightlifting. If you don't like it, you don't have to do p90x or Crossfit or any of these intense crazy training regimens, you just got to move for 20 to 25 minutes.
Abby Carncross: I think that one thing that we see a lot is doing things to an extreme, whether it's specific diet and you're restricting calories that you need to consume or you have to only eat a specific kind of food or you have to go to the gym for three hours a day. And unfortunately it's okay you're doing one thing to an extreme but if you did a balance of everything that probably would achieve more of the goal that you're wanting everything and moderation is good.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah, I have Taylor lined up to be a guest on the podcast in a couple weeks. So I'm excited to dig in with her a little bit more and…
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: kind of her treatment approach and what she brings to the table from a different background than just straight mental health.
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Which is exciting. I learned at late stage diagnosis for ADHD. I didn't really integrate my diagnosis till I was 30 which is when I had to make some life changes. I had a kid but also just back pain, knee pain, like some different stuff where I've been an athlete for so long. And just I'm metabolism, I don't think it was anything else. I think it was just that. And so again that lifestyle change didn't really hit until 30 was dang, I don't know how to Healthy. I've never had to worry about it before and so it just again wherever you're at is okay like to learn this stuff now.
Abby Carncross: Right.
Jeremy Schumacher: Is good. Even if you feel like you're behind or you should know it like,…
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: We don't have a great system for how to take care of our bodies all the time like sorry education system,…
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: but the physical education we get is pretty lacking and I can speak to Wisconsin. At least it's pretty lacking and tying mental health, to nutritional intake to sleep, hygiene like stress relief, mindfulness. most people are not doing any of this stuff.
Abby Carncross: Good.
Jeremy Schumacher: They don't even learn it until they go to therapy, which is not a therapy on a pedestal,…
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: it's just to say if you're like, yeah, I don't know how to do that. That's okay. now's the time to learn.
Abby Carncross: Yeah. It'll always tell my clients, that they're an expert on them. And I've got all this knowledge and these ideas and I can point out patterns that I see, but it's ultimately them that I, needs to want to make the changes and kind of view things from an open mind. I think it's easy to kind of fall into patterns of. Okay, I'm working all day and I didn't take a break for lunch or…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.
Abby Carncross: I skip breakfast because I woke up late. Eventually that kind of falls into a habit and I think that that's kind of what's cool about, even coming to therapy is seeing a third party perspective, like this wide scope of your life and things you can change to improve it.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and so much of that stuff gets normalized working hard. So I got up early, and I skipped breakfast or college students, notoriously do not get enough sleep…
Abby Carncross: Then.
Jeremy Schumacher: because that's baked in as don't you cram or whatever and it's we need to stop normalizing. Some of that stuff that very obviously has impacts long-term.
00:45:00
Abby Carncross: Yeah, no, I totally agree. I think that. I feel like I have the sleep conversation with almost every client that I see of Hey we need to not watch TV for hours in bed or maybe we need to put our phone away away from our beds around checking it to am and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Abby Carncross: a little tweaks, can make a big difference from at least what I've seen.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, for sure I talk about sleep, hygiene with most of my clients and talk about stress relief, because most people are not getting enough of either segue here.
Abby Carncross: Yes.
Jeremy Schumacher: Abby, What a stressful relief look like for you. I don't want to say, you've made it to The Promised Land That sounds that overhypes it, but you're in private practice. You're practicing in a way that's ethically aligned Still, this job is stressful in a kind of unique way. How do you take care of yourself? What is stress relief? Or finding space for joy. Look like in your life.
Abby Carncross: One of the things I quickly learned on was that I need to take a break during the middle of the day. It's easy to kind of, get on really into making a group or doing my notes, or, starting a new job and you're really excited and a lot of times when I don't take that break, I don't eat enough for lunch or don't have time to reset my brain before seeing more people. So actually from an hour during the day, I'll eat lunch and I'll just watch a cartoon on Netflix. Usually it's gonna do.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Nice.
Abby Carncross: So going back to my channel.
Jeremy Schumacher: Very cool.
Abby Carncross: but then, when I go home on
Abby Carncross: Very silly. I signed my dogs up for swimming lessons so I take them to swimming lessons twice a week and they are slowly learning to water but just doing those little things of, okay, this could be fun. I want to try it out and making sure I'm having a good work life balance, which can be easy to slip the side sometimes.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah. And I mentioned this earlier but stop working through your lunch breaks, people go for a walk, go out,…
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: I'd Give your body something different to do. It makes such a big difference. Again, we normalize so much of this stuff or going home and doing progress notes at the end of the day because …
Abby Carncross: Yeah. No.
Jeremy Schumacher: you don't want to fall behind on them and there's all this pressure to also, I mean, dogs, when lessons sound like a very fun activity,
Abby Carncross: there's a black.
Jeremy Schumacher: but also something that's structured is a big thing. I thought, with clients a lot to something that's in your calendar. Consistently makes it easier for you to do it rather than coming up off the top of your head with something to do. That's good for your mental health or your physical being. No, I have it scheduled for you. So you just have to show up. That makes it more likely that you're going to do that.
Abby Carncross: Yeah, I think that it helps have a accountability partner too. my colleague Taylor. I know you're talking to her, in a couple weeks, was never a runner before. So when I decided to sign up for half Marathon somehow convinced her to do it with me. She never really ran more than a 5K in her life, but it's been kind of fun to hold each other accountable of I'm, wake up in the morning and I'm like, I don't want to run today and she's we signed up for this and it's in three weeks we can't back out because we did the non-robondable plan and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.
Abby Carncross: So having that person that's holding you accountable to, I think is always helpful.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and you'd use your dogs for swim lessons. I talk about structuring things around like walking your dog. I'm a big dog lover. So first of all, get a dog, they're great. But also their brains are a little simpler than ours. So they're not stressed about the Supreme Court or…
Abby Carncross: No.
Jeremy Schumacher: the stock market or anything that we as humans worry about. it's five o'clock. It's time to go for an exercise. I don't say the word because my Great Dane mix is sleeping. On the couch behind me, she'll pop up if I say it but it's one of those things where finding that system or that structure that makes sense for you accountability partners are great. Sometimes there are kids sometimes there are pets. Sometimes it's A bowling league that were a part of and we don't want to not show up because the other team will be disappointed. that little bit of extra pressure helps us stick to our consistent schedule.
Abby Carncross: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's been fun to have at least one thing or two things during the week that are our scheduled and it forced me to take a break and think about something outside of, my career other stressors. I might have going on in my life, I mean, I think,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Abby Carncross: my dog's biggest stressor is a garbage bag rolling down the street and she's barking at it for, 10 minutes and then it rolls back. So sometimes, I get home from work and I'm like, hey, what'd you do today Nala and she's like, I pretend she's talking you'll say I slept all day. So
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. What kind of dog do you have?
00:50:00
Abby Carncross: But she's a mini goldendoodle. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I have Great Dane, mix. We have to One passed away a couple years ago, but we've got the great saying mix and a long-haired Chihuahua. So we've got the big little mix in our house. I love great Danes, going back to your Scooby-Doo reference, I think, because I love Scooby-Doo as a kid, it's always kind of been there.
Abby Carncross: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: The big dogs for me.
Abby Carncross: I think it's fun to take a break during the day and wash Scooby-Doo and I remember what the mystery was in this one. So it's a little bit easier thinking wise than sessions
Jeremy Schumacher: I have to ask you, this is a new question, I've added to the podcast for all my fine neurodivergent folks. Do you have any bird tattoos?
Abby Carncross: No, I've sticked to mostly ocean waves.
Jeremy Schumacher: Okay, where we're slowly building a data set on bird tattoo and neurodivergence overlap. It's a high correlation, we're learning. So now I got to ask everyone.
Abby Carncross: Yeah, no that's funny. I haven't heard that. No, I've got three tattoos and two of them involved. Waves in them. So
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah I think a lot of us ADHD is nature like it stimulating in a healthy way for our brains,…
Abby Carncross: yeah. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: so that makes sense too. Abby of people want to learn more about the work you're…
Abby Carncross: No.
Jeremy Schumacher: if they want to work with you if they want to connect with you, where do they go? How do they find you?
Abby Carncross: Yeah, they can go to my website every little fiber.com. We also have an instagram where we occasionally post, pictures of our dogs. So that's always a nice little added bonus on. I also do free consultation calls. I want to make sure that people are being fit with a therapist needs therapy possible. So I'm always happy to consult and guide people and direction that they want to go.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, And we will have links to all of that stuff in the show notes so people can find Abby, thanks so much for taking the time to join me today.
Abby Carncross: because, Yeah,…
Abby Carncross: thanks so much for having me.
Jeremy Schumacher: And to all the wonderful listeners out there.
Jeremy Schumacher: Thanks for tuning in again, this week, we'll be back next week with another new episode. Take care, everyone.
Meeting ended after 00:52:17 👋
This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it was created.