Your Therapist Needs Therapy 79 - Immigration and Cultural Identity with Madeleine Doelker Berlin

This week Jeremy gets the chance to chat with Madeleine Doelker Berlin, owner of Wildflower Counseling MKE. Madeleine shares her journey from Germany to the U.S., transitioning from homelessness services to becoming a counselor. She highlights systemic differences in social and mental health services between the two countries, focusing on how structural challenges in the U.S., such as limited social safety nets and resource competition, amplify struggles for both unhoused individuals and providers. Madeleine also discusses the complexities of adult immigration, including cultural misalignment, Midwest norms, and her focus on supporting immigrant women and navigating motherhood through her private practice.

You can find more information about Madeleine and her work at wildflowermke.com or find her on Instagram @wildflowercounselingmke

Jeremy has all his practice info at Wellness with Jer, and you can find him on Instagram and YouTube.

Head over to Patreon to support the show, or you can pick up some merch! We appreciate support from likes, follows, and shares as well!

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Podcasts about therapy do not replace actual therapy, and listening to a podcast about therapy does not signify a therapeutic relationship.

If you or someone you know is in crisis please call or text the nationwide crisis line at 988, or text HELLO to 741741. The Trevor Project has a crisis line for LGBTQ+ young people that can be reached by texting 678678.

Transcript

Your Therapist Needs Therapy - Madeleine Doelker Berlin - 2024/11/13 10:52 CST - Transcript

Attendees

Jeremy Schumacher, Madeleine Doelker Berlin

Transcript

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Jeremy Schumacher: Hello and welcome to another edition of Your Therapist Needs Therapy, the podcast where two mental health professionals talk about their mental health journey and how they navigate mental wellness while working in the mental health field. I'm your host, Jeremy Schumacher, licensed marriage and family therapist. To support the show, head over to patreon.com/wwellnesswithj. I like to joke that I am a mental not a professional podcaster. So, likes, shares, support, leaving a review, all that stuff is helpful in our modern algorithm driven world. super stoked today for my guest, a local therapist that I'm excited to connect with and talk about her work and also talk about some topics we haven't covered a ton in the podcast yet.

Jeremy Schumacher: So, I'm very excited to be joined by Dulkar Berlin. Maline, thanks for joining me today. I start every podcast with the same question how is it that you came to be in the mental health

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Thanks for having It's been a long journey.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: And not so I'm originally from Germany. I feel like that is kind of relevant to everything at this point. so I originally wanted to take a completely different path as a career like I wanted to be in politics. So, I have a political science degree. and then later on I got a master's degree in social sciences.

Jeremy Schumacher: Mhm.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: And I thought that I would be working for members of parliament or something like that, like preparing, writing speeches, that kind of stuff. And I did that for a while. I was an intern for a member of parliament in Germany and worked on a book with him and then once I started my social sciences master's degree I relocated to Berlin and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Mhm. Yeah. Mhm.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: needed a job on the side and kind of fell into homeless services which I think for the first time in my entire life I felt like I was in the right place. I often felt like a sense of misplacement or not fully fitting in and then homeless services was my jam I was there as so I finished my master's degree and throughout that my area of research was homelessness and social inequality and oppression. and so I did my master's thesis on homelessness in Germany and ended up just like pivoting to that area and became a You would call it case manager in the US. It's not really a case manager in Germany, but became a case manager in homeless services.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Sure.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: And really loved that. did that for a bit and that is huge overlap with mental health services because people at least in Germany it's different in the US but most people in Germany who are in homeless services often have mental health concerns a lot of schizophrenia a lot of substance use that's like the two main borderline personality disorder and so I worked a bunch with clients who had maybe undiagnosed

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: or diagnosed severe mental health concerns and I really liked it a lot and then I relocated to the US because my husband's here and wanted to continue in homeless services and figured I lived in Southern California, I worked in Southern California and homeless services with families there and then we relocated to Milwaukee and I worked in homeless services here and…

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: along the way I just figured out that homeless services in the US were a very different beast than in Germany.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: A lot of that has to do with availability of resources a lot but also how people are being treated and what is required of them and how it always felt like people kind of have to earn their right to get compassion and help which I think was not as much the case in Germany.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah,…

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: There was just money and resources available it's just …

Jeremy Schumacher: I was going to guess a lot of that has to do with the social safety net that's available to people.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: absolutely. It's completely different.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: I mean, people just got money in Germany, They're like, "Here you go, monthly money and here you go. we pay for an apartment for you forever, and here it's like so everything is so tight financially and…

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: and then I mean the biggest thing is that Wisconsin is an open record state and that makes it so hard for people with felonies to get housing. and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, Right.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: so things like that were just really hard and I think structural issues are always really tough on me especially because I come from a place where it was better. So I know how it can be better, how it can be so much better and then you're here and all of a sudden everyone is competing for resources and it's just I was like I can't do this anymore. And so I decided to move on. And while I had already thought about that I would really like to be in substance use counseling. And so I just went back to school and…

00:05:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Are you

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: got my counseling degree and focus on substance use counseling. And then again I was like I can't really move on from homeless population or from population that just need extra help because I always felt like I'm super lucky.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: I privileged. I'm from a middle class family. my parents are great. I went to school for free because I went to school in Germany. I always felt like so I had so much that I could spare some of what I had gotten. Does that make sense? so I was not shying away from particularly difficult sets of clients or people that are deemed difficult by some people. And so I was like, I could do mandated clients. And so my internship was in that setting. And I figured out it didn't sit right with me.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: 

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: I felt like honestly I was part of a system of oppression. It was like I didn't like how I was a counselor for clients who were on federal probation parole. And a lot of the people working in that system genuinely wanted good. But then at the same time, I didn't think that they were meeting clients needs…

Jeremy Schumacher: right? Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: how I would have wanted them to be met. And there are some things with confidentiality that are very different there. And that is the biggest part for me. I was like, "No, it's not for me." And so after that I had to like and that also coincided with me being an immigrant and having basically to settle in the US and so I felt a lot of identity issues at that point. So I had to step back for a moment. I then had two children and that went back to homeless services just to confirm again that I can't be in homeless services anymore.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: 

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: and I worked in a daycare for a year, which was not something for me, but I learned so much. And that was really amazing. and then at one point I was like, "Okay, what I'm going to do now?" And I finally at one point I had this epiphany where I was like, "Oh my god, I would love to be a counselor now." Before I wasn't ready and then I had the degree and I was like, "I really would love to be a counselor." and especially the kind of counselor that I thought I didn't have access to when I like at one point I had been in counseling actually…

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: but in my early 20s I had counseling and that was really helpful and then when I came to Milwaukee I really wanted someone to help me with this transition of an immigrant being an immigrant in Milwaukee and I just couldn't find anyone like it was and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Mhm.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: and the way my personality is not necessarily something that your standard Milwaukee white woman would be like. And so I just felt so much like I didn't fit in. And then I'm an immigrant and it was so weird. And I tried to find a counselor who would understand. And I I couldn't find anyone who could actually the experience of immigration, especially when you're grown up, is so bizarre and so weird in so many ways.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: So I was like and I want to be the three main things that for me were super relevant that I wish I had a counselor for that was navigating motherhood like women's mental health and…

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: immigration those were the three fields…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Right.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: where it's like I wish I had someone available who would relate more to me and the kind of person I am and so my background and whoa what if a counselor for other people now that I've gone through all of this. so yeah,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: I started my own private practice. yeah, sorry is a long story.

Jeremy Schumacher: No, no, no. I start with that question because it opens up so many avenues of conversation. I have yet to have a guest who has a linear process in this field.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: I want to talk about the immigration and it's a topic I've talked about with one of my other guests.

00:10:00

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Mhm.

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Jeremy Schumacher: But while homelessness is part of it, I do want to talk about that a little bit because in the US a lot of the mental health providers who are working with that population interns are students. my first internship was at Hope House in Milwaukee, which is a homeless shelter down near the third ward.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Mhm.

Jeremy Schumacher: And I was so ill equipped to work with that population as a student,…

Jeremy Schumacher: but because the burnout rate is so high for people who are working there, that's just where they place students. And so you have these people who are in crisis in a high level of need working with providers who are not well qualified to be working with them.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Hey there.

Jeremy Schumacher: And then you just have this burnout cycle. So the system for people who are dealing with being unhoused doesn't support them. We don't have a social safety net.

Jeremy Schumacher: and then we don't have the support for the mental health providers we're trying to send their way either. And so I think that burnout process is very high…

Jeremy Schumacher: because the system sucks and then we don't have the resources to support either the people who are in the system or the professionals who are trying to be helpful.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Mhm. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: No, Absolutely. think Yeah. And I think honestly it's Milwaukee there. A lot of it has to do with race as well. I do think there's just not enough providers of color.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: And that is what is really needed, honestly me stepping in there and trying to help people who felt like there was nothing that connected them to me or my experience had nothing to do with theirs. I don't blame them. it's true, it's true. And I think that is a huge thing.

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: And I mean there's just not enough funding available for clients in particular for providers.

Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: It's a burnout machine unfortunately. It's just Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And not when you personally had the experience of knowing there is a better system and then not being able to do that. because as someone who's born in America, I also knew there was a better system. This isn't like a mystery. It's a policy choice.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: We know how to increase outcomes for people. We know that meeting their basic needs creates a lot of positive benefit right away, That solves so much and…

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: we don't do that for a policy choice.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And so I think too as a provider, it's really hard to stay in there when I'm part of this machine that is unhelpful on purpose.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: That's true. I think that is I just didn't want to be complicit.

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: I think to a certain degree it feels dirty sometimes to be part of that system that doesn't benefit…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Right.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: because really if people just had housing and a regular irregular income of some in some way or shape some people let's face it some people cannot work some people cannot work because their mental health is just interfering with it too much and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Right.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: It's yeah people just in their being increases so much more if they don't have to hustle for food and housing all it's like a hustle for people all the time.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: It's constant like go go.

Jeremy Schumacher: And the messaging in America for so long has been it is a personal failing.

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Jeremy Schumacher: And so there's this judgment on being unhoused is someone's fault and…

Jeremy Schumacher: it's that person's fault. Even though most of us in America, unless we're independently wealthy, most of us are a major life catastrophe away from being unhoused. Right.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Yeah, absolutely.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: And I do think what is very interesting is with co what happened is that all of a sudden everyone went on pause and most people had been hustling and all of a sudden they had time to step back and be like is this the life I want? people don't have time to think about long-term goals. And I think that was the only time I can think of…

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: where collectively people had the experience of understanding that there's a difference between your everyday hustle and how it affects your thinking about the future and actually have time to think for a moment.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: And I think that is something for a lot of unhoused people. It's just their brain is in survival mode. they cannot access any long-term planning capacity or…

Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: even stick with it.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: I think that's the other thing like if you're so busy trying to make sure you get food and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: housing and then fulfilling all the requirements that the 10 case managers you might have for you.

Jeremy Schumacher: And you brought up the confidentiality piece right, it's part of the overall police state of you're supposed to be keeping your eyes on these people. Are they doing the right things?

00:15:00

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Jeremy Schumacher: for a lot of shelters there are requirements for are you trying to get a job are you doing these things are you like meeting your deadlines and…

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Mhm. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: so as a provider you're roped into it even with push back and saying no no I can't share that that's not ethical like the clients you're working with are skeptical of the process because everyone in their life is observing them to tell on them not to support Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Absolutely. And I think it's a form of infantilization of people and I think that is the exact opposite of what people need if you want to show respect to people you trust them you don't infantilize them I mean there's accountability and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: there's infantilization and I think it's on the infantilization often the system in the US Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And that feeds into the personal choice narrative that you are a naughty child.

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Jeremy Schumacher: you go into timeout and Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Yeah. Mhm.

Jeremy Schumacher: And you brought up COVID and it's such a frustrating topic. U I'm married to a teacher. I work with medical A lot of people who were the essential care workers nothing got better for them. We all sort of acknowledged hey we need these people for society and then just did nothing to support them.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Yeah, we gave them Sorry.

Jeremy Schumacher: And what happened Yeah. We put out yard signs that said thanks thank you for all your work.

Jeremy Schumacher: But what happened when everyone could pause is we said, "Hey, the police state is bad. Let's protest." We said things like, "People matter more than property." And that was really scary for our capitalistic society. And so then it's right the move to go back to the office and not work from home that it's cranked up to 11 for the unhoused population that their needs aren't met and…

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Yeah. yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: they can't think. But that's true for just capitalism as well.

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Jeremy Schumacher: busy, enjoy your weekend, then back to work. So that we're not talking about social changes. So we're not trying to change the structure.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: And making consumption basically being your pastime. So that's another job basically. it's like when you have free time,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: how about you go shopping, so that you don't stop and think. it is maddening.

Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Right. Yeah. It's maddening. so we've accurately highlighted that the system is broken.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: It's frustrating.

Jeremy Schumacher: What is it like as a mental health provider never provided services in another country. what is it like in Germany then when I started my career? the affordable care act hadn't been passed.

Jeremy Schumacher: I worked at a low fee clinic where people who didn't have insurance came for therapy.

Jeremy Schumacher: And so it was the similar population, lots of schizophrenia, lots of untreated chronic mental health issues. And so what is sort of the approach in Germany then for mental health? Is it seen as this thing that we want to support and help them? Is it there a stigma attached to it still? What does that look like?

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: I think that's a very complex question because there is a stigma attached to it for sure. But I think just the regular baseline of social support among people in Germany is much higher,…

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: …

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: not just in homeless services, but just in life. I feel like social cohesion, I don't know if that rings a bell. It's a sociology term. Basically means how much people trust each other in a society.

Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Social cohesion is much higher in Germany. I mean to be fair, I've not lived in Germany for 10 years.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: So things have changed significantly actually, but when I was there, social cohesion was Much easier to make friends, much easier to make meaningful connections with other people. And that's a very multi-layered thing. But I'm an interprofessional, so I always approach everything from a sociological and a polit and a counseling standpoint, I'll ramble here and there, but I think so that the baseline is diff of connection among humans is different, I would say. at least for a lot of people in Germany. And then in homeless services, I think homeless services are much more diverse. That's one thing. So, you have people of all racial backgrounds ending up in homeless services. Also, that has partially changed. I'll come to that.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: which is kind of different from the US where it's very clear…

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: because of racial discrimination. the homeless per population is not diverse. it's predominantly black and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Right.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: brown people predominantly low socioeconomic status. I mean that's kind of built into but I mean you have people who go into homelessness from actually having a good income and they're just falling all the way down. That happens as well. So, in Germany it's much more diverse. I think the majority of people has substance use disorders or schizophrenia. that's mo the majority of people who end up In the US, many more people end up in homeless services that in Germany would just not be in homeless services, be because it's people losing their job and…

00:20:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. That security deposit.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: then all of a sudden not being able to have their apartment anymore and then they don't have a down payment. they don't have what's it called? The thing that security deposit, sorry, they don't have a security deposit and…

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: then they can't get back into housing or they have a felony and they can't find anything. So there's yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: We like to punish people for being poor.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: And so just taking this aside, so the population in Germany that you have that is homeless predominantly substance use disorder and severe mental health concerns and for them for sure mental health services are important and in a way it's easier than in the US because I think health insurance covers more and they all can get easily in Germany if you get money from

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: the government like social security basically disability money you automatically get signed into health insurance and…

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: there is no such thing as a co-ay or out of pocket maximum just doesn't exist which those are such weird things to me in the first place in the US…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: so you can get treatment and I think you can get it way more often than in the US or you can it's a system. There's a lot of versions of involuntary commitment to be honest where you can basically be like this person at this point is a danger to themselves.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, sure. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Let's see if we can get them into some long-term treatment program that is inatient and they can't get out for a little bit just to make sure that they stabilize a little bit. But it's different. And so those are a little icky. And yeah, so it's there, but it's very different than in the US.

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: And I think there's overall just a higher tolerance for people just getting an apartment and still being heavily addicted to substances and they can just stay in their apartment and at least not freeze to death when they're really drunk outside and pass out.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. …

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Yeah. Yeah,…

Jeremy Schumacher: and that idea that even people who are not actively contributing to society still deserve some quality of life. And in America that has intentionally recently within the past 60 70 years been reframed as a personal failing.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: absolutely. It's Yeah, absolutely. And I think you can tell in society in the US. I do think in a way German society is much more tolerating of people just maybe not being able to contribute and…

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: in a way gives you a sense of safety when existing in the world because you're like okay if something really bad happens to me I'm not going to lose everything and I think there's that implicit knowledge in people's praying where they're okay So it's good to contribute to the system that helps people who I mean not everyone obviously but I think the majority of Germans is willing to pay for a welfare system even if people sometimes abuse it and that happens everywhere I don't know that whole focus I'm like the welfare system is being abused I'm like it's just every system is being abused to a certain degree

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: 

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Jeremy Schumacher: And right, we could fund things much better by taxing the wealthy as opposed to worrying about who's cheating the system. the difference there is so comically unbalanced that again it's a policy choice to have the conversations we're having as opposed to being based on research or science. unhoused population has a lot of research on what would be beneficial and we just don't do it and…

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Okay. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: we shrugged. It's a podcast. listeners can't see us, but we both shrugged. there's not a good reason to be not doing it other than capitalism doesn't want to do it,…

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: And it seems like people are just being pit against each other. it's like people with little amount of resources in comparison to people really rich are being pit against each other. So basically that's…

Jeremy Schumacher: right? Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: what that mechanism seems to be of why people are not supporting a more better welfare system is they're like

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: but I don't want my little resources that I have to go to this other person over there which I understand.

Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: I mean everyone feels like they're so close to losing everything at all times. makes it much harder to give away any of your money that you have.

00:25:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: So absolutely.

Jeremy Schumacher: Which also is a feature, not a flaw within capitalism, having it be competition based. It's from early on from the grades you get in in kindergarten and…

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: who gets scholarships and all that stuff it's all socializing us to be competitive and participate in that capitalism that way instead of being like, "Hey, this system sucks. Let's burn it down." We might get there sooner rather than later.

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Jeremy Schumacher: We'll see.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: I mean it's also scarcity based I just thinking of scholarships that's such a scarcity model it's like just any of you can get this so Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Which if we just taxed rich people, we could fund it all. No problem. it's maddening as an American. I can't imagine for you being no." "This is a problem that has been solved elsewhere." To then come over and be like, "What are you all doing? This is so dumb. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Yeah. Yeah. I mean honestly I think in combination it I wouldn't be so it's one thing to be like It's another thing that system being failing and everyone walking around this saying this is the greatest country on earth, that's the thing that is really sad to me because it kind of makes society be so resisting to any kind of change by looking at how other places might have figured some things out,…

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: ?

Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And as a therap I went to University of Minnesota which is a really big research institution.

Jeremy Schumacher: So having that background in research this isn't even a question of how to solve this problem. We know we're just not doing it. And I think that makes people uncomfortable. They'd rather just woo. We're number one instead of being hey we got some problems. Let's fix it.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: No.

Jeremy Schumacher: Let's shift a little bit. talking about immigration, you specified and…

Jeremy Schumacher: my other guest Gabby Minuscalco, who I had on a while ago, you can scroll back into the episodes if you want to listen to that, immigrated when she was young. And so that's sort of her process, but you specifically said the immigration process as an adult is very bizarre. Can you talk a little bit more about like that process and what you mean by that?

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Mhm. So I came to the US when I was 29.

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: So I was a fullg grown adult with a full fully established identity.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Heat.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Or I actually know there's research on this but it is a very different challenge to be having a fully established identity as a grown-up and also possibly having a fully established career. and then moving into a place where a lot of those things don't matter anymore and your way of being and who you think you are don't fit anymore in and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Mhm.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: a lot of it is, I mean, it's weird because I'm a white cisgender female. So, people see me and people think I'm a white American. and it's just not true. I grew up with western European culture which in a way is very very prominent in the US…

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: but it's a lot about what implicit norms about how people are supposed to be in the US are and how they're different where I'm from. and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Mhm.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: so that process is what when you're a child, and I listened to Gabby's episode and it was very interesting to hear because when you're a child, you're much more malleable and you're much more focused on trying to fit in and trying to find your place in the world.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Right.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: But if you already have a fully established identity, that is really hard because it's not like how can I make myself fit into this? You're like, "Why do I not fit into this?" You know what I mean? it's like as…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Right.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: if you I don't know. I have these sorting kids sorting toys where you have a star and a square and a dragon on stuff and…

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: you're like a square who's supposed to fit through the star and you just don't fit. And where when you're a kid, you can maybe still shape it, …

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: but you just don't. And it's a very very painful process of trying to find a way of keeping your identity without fully giving yourself up and still fitting into this new society. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And I don't know I can imagine there's research I've read it but without experiencing I know the immigration process for marginalized communities particularly black and brown people there's a lot of inherent racism and we talk about microaggressions those are things we study but you're talking about as a white lady like there's so you maybe pass the quote unquote eye test…

00:30:00

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: 

Jeremy Schumacher: but then there's still this group outgroup that you're butdding up against regularly.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: I don't think my accent ever is an issue like that is that I'm okay there.

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Jeremy Schumacher: What is that is that not similar to the racism inherent but microaggressions and what is that experience for you where you're yep I'm okay until they hear my accent or I'm okay until I don't do this social norm and then what's that push back look like? You're a therapist,…

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: I'm like honestly honestly it's visual. falls more like I dress weird for most people and so in the Midwest that's kind of weird for some reason. But yeah,…

Jeremy Schumacher: so we're sort of allowed to dress weird. So that's true.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: but not in school. when I went to counseling school,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: I was always the odd one out and I was weird. I don't know what's going on here. but I think there's a lack of cultural knowledge in the US or especially in the Midwest. I used to live in Southern California. my partner is from the east coast.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Mhm. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: I've been at the east coast a lot and I think those are much more diverse places in a way, culturally diverse places. And people there whom I worked with and whom I encountered had an understanding for the fact that not everyone has the same social norms, the same communication skills or not it's not about skills but communication norms. they'd be much more giving and understanding when you would, for example, say something that they thought was rude. They'd be like, we think this is rude. And then you come to the Midwest and the Midwest has very implicit communication norms is very for white people. So, this is the thing.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: all of this is white middle class basically but white middle class American a midwestern culture is very passive aggressive and…

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Right.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: but the thing is most people have not enough understanding for what it is like to be in a place that is different from them culturally to at least give you the grace to tell you hey we do this differently they just instantly hate you. …

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: they're like, and then they don't tell you. And then weeks later or months later, you just know that there's something going on. And I'm like, what is going on? have I done something wrong? no, no. And I feel like that is a form of microaggression honestly…

Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: because I think and it's like a lot of people who are not white middleclass Americans experience this where there's just the subtlety in communication…

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: where people just assume that you can read their mind and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Mhm.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: there is no communication of what are actually the norms that you're having what people just assume because you violated norms that there's something wrong with you and you're mean and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: that was very very stressful for me for a long period of time here…

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: because I just couldn't figure out the communication norms it's like I don't…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: because there's no feedback loop in a way no direct feedback One second.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. It's so bizarre. as a native Midwesterner, we talk about Midwest everyone here is nice, but there's no conflict resolution. it's nice for the sake of being nice, but it's not actually connective.

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Jeremy Schumacher: There's no depth to it. we won't insult you,…

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: No. No.

Jeremy Schumacher: but we will silently judge you from far away and then not deal with you anymore. the group outgroup dynamic is very strong and…

Jeremy Schumacher: then it's got the sheen of pleasantries over it that makes it very hard to decipher.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Yeah. And honestly,…

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: it feels aggressive when you are on the receiving end and can't fit in, …

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: where because you're not allowed to bring up the conflict,…

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: you're not allowed to say there is rude and then that is onto itself such a strong social norm, like I and…

Jeremy Schumacher: That's rude that you're bringing it up.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Sure. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: I come from a country where we complain about things as a way of connecting with each other. in Germany, you meet someone new and the first thing you're trying to do is find a thing that you can complain about together, and there is a level of great connection in that.

00:35:00

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: And I think a lot of people in the Midwest find that very weird.

Jeremy Schumacher: Mhm. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: They think that you're always complaining about everything. That's not the case, It's just a way of feeling it out. And so I think that was really weird. that is just like those things just don't go together very well my and Germans are known and not every German is the same by no means I'm not on time because everyone's always like Germans are on time I'm not on time I'm sorry about that but there is definitely German culture is much more direct and it's very solution focused in a way it's like we want to make things better so

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: So let's try to figure out what didn't go So you might get some feedback where someone's going to be like that didn't work. Let's do it differently next time. And if you try that here, people are feel so offended.

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: …

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: and Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And one of the things I work with is religious trauma. And there's this concept we call spiritual bypassing where people won't do the hard emotional work to just pretend that everything's okay. They'd rather just feel okay than actually make things good. And that's a very Midwestern thing too that we'd rather have everything feel okay and…

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Yeah. Mhm.

Jeremy Schumacher: not have to be uncomfortable, not have to address anything. and even if it sucks, we're all just kind of okay with it is better than actually addressing it head-on. And so there's a lot of emotional bypassing that goes on just as a way to not feel uncomfortable.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: And the interesting thing though is I think if you come from a culture that doesn't do that,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Mhm. Right.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: you don't have that space of emotional bypassing. you won't feel okay if there's conflict. …

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: you're just there and you're like, "What is going on? What is going on?

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: What is going on?" And you're trying to find out…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: what is going on. People won't tell you. And so I think I know.

Jeremy Schumacher: And I see it in religion elsewhere, but it is a geographic Midwestern thing cuz my sister-in-law is from New York and her integration into our family was very chaotic cuz New Yorkers just talk about s*** and they'll cuss you out and then hug you and you're all good and that is not what happens in the Midwest. that's very very uncomfortable. So I think again west coast have their own America's such a big expansive geography that the cultural norms are very regional.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: I know. Yeah, they're very original. And I think that's why I said West Coast works way better for me just…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: because there's a different cultural norms. So I think that was really hard in the and I think honestly the Midwest is particular kind of misogyny.

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: So that's another thing you're an outspoken woman that gives you a completely different level of anger that you receive.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. What I'm curious.

Jeremy Schumacher: I have two questions. …

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Mhm.

Jeremy Schumacher: because Wisconsin specifically and the Midwest in general, but Wisconsin specifically is very German settlers are who settled Wisconsin. So I'm curious as an immigrant coming from Germany does that sort of track can we see where it shifted from German culture to whatever the Midwest culture is now? And then two, I'm curious to talk more about this specific misogyny

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: So I mean that's a very interesting one…

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: because when I first came to Milwaukee a lot of people are so many cultural German clubs and there you'll feel just like home and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: then I think one has to understand that so Germany is not a small country. It's as big as California as the population. and it has a lot of different cultural permutations, like a lot.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: So, having a German club that covers it all is very bizarre to me in the first place. I understand people have and there's this whole thing where culture can't be preserved in time either, so the culture that you have in those German clubs is way old, And for me icky because the majority of im immigrants who came to Wisconsin from Germany came before between World War and…

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: World War II and after World War II. And that is always kind of what's your relationship to Nazi Germany?

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: That's always kind of the implicit.

Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Sure.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: And modern day Germany doesn't want to have anything to do with that. culturally I think I haven't noticed very much. I mean I'm from a majority culture in Germany. So it's very hard to actually have an objective view on yourself when you're part of the majority culture or the dominant culture.

00:40:00

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: 

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: So I cannot tell how much of Wisconsin culture is German culture in terms of communication culture and other things. don't know. I can say that the umata you call it pula.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah,…

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: It's not guys at Polish thing. But they do that one really well actually. That s*** I cursed a lot. at October Fest we have that and…

Jeremy Schumacher: you're good.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: exactly the same music and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: it's always really funny to me because I'm like this is so bizarre. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: One half of my family is nearly all German.

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Jeremy Schumacher: And the Schumacher side.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: I could tell was like Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah,…

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: shockingly. but very German Lutheran. And so I had a great grandpa who still did his sermons in German. And so my experience of my cultural heritage has always been far more Lutheran than anything else. It's always been based on the religious thing than any of the German thing. I don't know. I drink Jaggermeister. that's maybe the most German thing I do. And that sounds so that's how little I know about German culture, Like that just even…

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: in America, even if that's your ethnic heritage, there's not a great connection to that. It's still a culturating to the majority population in your geographic location is still the preferred outcome than maintaining that cultural heritage.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean at the same time I do understand why people do that, I think it's a sense of trying to understand your…

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: where you belong and where you come from and I understand that and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: in a way I feel like my approach to German culture just comes from a very privileged position where it's just a given I just like all of those I don't need those cultural things I mean I did October Fest can be a fun thing but besides that I don't I don't need a durnle I don't later hosen and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. That's terrible news for someone who's from Wisconsin and…

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: those by the way are basically like southern German culture that's like Texas basically so most of the things that you have in the US is this is German culture is basically Bavarian culture and Bavaria is basically Texas of Germany from But…

Jeremy Schumacher: most of my German culture is tied to October Fest things.

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: but for me I don't need that there's this historical groundedness that comes with being from a space where you just know its history so far back and when I'm in Germany or…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Mhm.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: even when I'm at the east coast when I see really old stone walls I feel grounded which is very bizarre I just like in Germany everything is so my hometown is a thousand years old That's…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah. Mhm.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: how far we can track it. That's when the first document came out. They have way older signs of settlements that they keep on digging out exly and then they're don't know what to do with this. Going to close it. Someone looked at it because there's just so much history everywhere. And I do think humans have that desire to create that for themselves. they want to feel deep historical roots in some way or…

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: shape. and I think that is what that is for people in the US.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: And I don't blame them. it just has nothing to do with me and my Germanness,

Jeremy Schumacher: And this is a topic I'm not interested in pursuing too far because it is so expansive, but there's an argument that American whiteness is not a culture of itself. And so it's a bizarre sort of grasping and oversimplifying other cultural norms and…

Jeremy Schumacher: then amplifying it and making that your personality and like that that doesn't have a lot of depth that doesn't have that connection to the past or that sort of ability to really dig in American culture is incredibly malleable and for people who are trying to connect to something there's not always a lot to go back to.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Mhm. I hear that.

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: I actually don't think it's very malleable though, which is interestingly I don't know. it's not rooted.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, maybe malleable was the wrong word.

Jeremy Schumacher: It's not rooted in anything.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Yeah. I don't think it's rooted and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: I think that creates a particular kind of collective anxiety in a way and dependence on artificial forms of identity or…

00:45:00

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: neuralism honestly is a collective identity.

Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Yeah yeah yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Or what kind of truck you drive as your identity.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: And so yeah I think in a way it makes the white United States white US culture more vulnerable to external influences on…

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: what culture supposedly is.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, which we're seeing in real time.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: I had a very awful thought. Do you want to hear it? That's the place that Germany was in the late 1900s,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yes, absolutely. Let's record it.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: 1800s. The grasp for national identity that is like Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And at least for young white American males, that connection's very strong for early, preWorld War Germany. the quality of life was high enough that young people coming up didn't have that sort of like this is…

Jeremy Schumacher: what the previous generations had to do, work for it, and they were angry because they weren't social climbing and they were looking for people to get angry at. And that messaging is again like American culture not being rooted.

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Jeremy Schumacher: it is easy to capture large swaths of the population by selling them a simple narrative yeah so that's the right-wing political movement right now and the reason this is a soap box for me but the reason it is linked up with conservative Christianity is because both of those things are selling an group outgroup dynamic that captures a lot of people…

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Mhm. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: 

Jeremy Schumacher: who don't have a culture to fall back on or a community that they're already connected Super fun.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Yeah, yeah,…

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: yeah. I think in the Midwest,…

Jeremy Schumacher: What an uplifting topic. let's go back briefly and I want to be respectful of your time here, but can you say a little bit more about the unique misogyny to the Midwest?

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: women are preferred to be quiet and not visible. And there's really not much space for especially white women. And I mean I think women of color have the issue that white all the women are supposed to be quiet and…

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: not outspoken and it's not tolerated any other way very much.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: And I haven't experienced that anywhere else, I like most of the outspoken women I know in the Midwest feel completely misplaced like people just think you're a bully basically and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah. do you have a hypothesis on…

Jeremy Schumacher: what that's from? Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: I think it's misogyny.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: I think it really is that there's a very strong cultural norm about…

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: how women are supposed to be and it's a very narrow cultural norm. it's not that you're like okay a woman can be this.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: A woman can be this. Its like, a woman is not supposed to stick out and she's not be supposed to be loud and she's not supposed to and disrupt the piece. I mean, I think in general it's like disrupting the peace is the ultimate offense in the Midwest.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Right.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: But men have outlets for that. men are allowed to be loud and rowdy because then they're just a dude. Women are not. Mhm. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah. that's interesting. because I grew up a fundamentalist religion very Lutheran and so did my wife.

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Jeremy Schumacher: And we've both since left the church and it's a very different experience. she as a outspoken female was doubly transgressive because of the geography but then because of the religious norm we were raised Lutheran women can't even vote still in the Lutheran church. So that's how transgressive it was to be not only good at her job and smart and critical thinking but then outspoken about it. And so, I'm aware of that within the church, a main reason for both of us leaving the church as we got older.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: 

Jeremy Schumacher: But also, it's interesting to hear like that that's not just the church, that's our lived experience, but that's the entire geography. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: No, I think it's the entire geography of white norms in the Midwest. And speaking of religion, I just recently learned of this Indian goddess Durga…

00:50:00

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: who is a really powerful and powerful goddess in Shakism I think. so it…

Jeremy Schumacher: Mhm. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: what is interesting about that it blew my mind that there would be a goddess centric religion that was never even a possibility in my brain. And I think that shows something about most religion it shows kind of like the built-in misogyny in most religious systems that we don't even think about the option of a powerful woman. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. and America was founded by a bunch of weird religious zealots who we're fleeing from Europe for religious discrimination.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Yeah, it's true.

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Jeremy Schumacher: Pennsylvania was set up by a bunch of weird Quakers who made Quaker oatmeal so that they didn't get horny from having spicy foods. and that sounds so ridiculous, but I'm not wrong. That's true. So it's just this weird dichotomy like that a lot of that patriarchy and misogyny is built in from who was setting up the country and creating some of those social norms and…

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: then the groups that are actively fighting to keep that going.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: And it doesn't benefit them. That's a sad thing. I'm such a big fan of trying to I mean the difference within each sex the diff the personality difference is bigger than between the different sexes.

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: If you see…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: what kind of personality people have within one sex, like that in the end, we're all super diverse no matter what sex or gender we have. And the idea that everyone is supposed to just fit into this one narrow norm doesn't benefit anyone. and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Mhm.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: I think all it doesn't benefit men either it doesn't not have being allowed a more emotional, more intuitive, more gentle existence is really sad.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah. These social norms are all about social control and so right participating in it keeps you sort of captured in that very narrow lane.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: This is all so good to talk about. there's so much more because we didn't even talk about the perinatal stuff and the motherhood stuff that you work with, but maybe we'll have you on again soon and talk about some of that. But Maline, if people want to learn about you, if they're interested in the immigrant experience or they're an immigrant themselves looking for some support, if they're hearing what we're saying and knowing we're talking about intersectionality, even though we haven't said that word out loud yet, but they want to work with someone who understands that, where can they go? How can they find your work? How can they connect with you?

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: I think the easiest way is to just go to my website which is wildflower mk com and just connect with me. There's my more info about me.

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: My email just shoot me an email. I think that's the easiest way. And then awesome.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, for sure.

Jeremy Schumacher: And we'll have your website and socials and stuff in the show notes so people can click over there and find it really easily. This has been lovely. Thank you so much for joining us.

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: That's really fun.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah. it goes by quickly especially when we talk about the big complex social topics. So, no,…

Madeleine Doelker Berlin: Thank you so much for having me.

Jeremy Schumacher: this has been appreciate you taking the time to join me today. And to all our wonderful listeners, thanks for tuning in again this week. We will be back next week with another new episode. Take care, everyone.