Your Therapist Needs Therapy 87 - Balancing Advocacy and Wellness with Kate Sayers

This week Jeremy reconnects with Kate Sayers, a therapist and owner of Safe Space MKE. They discuss Kate's recent certification with WPATH, an organization supporting transgender health, and the importance of advocacy in their profession. The conversation explores the challenges of navigating mental health as LGBTQ+ individuals and clinicians, especially amid political tensions affecting their community. They also reflect on balancing activism with personal well-being, social media's impact, and the significance of finding joy and community as forms of resistance.

You can find out more about Kate and her practice at Safe Space Therapies and on Instagram  here.

Jeremy has all his practice info at Wellness with Jer, and you can find him on Instagram and YouTube. 

Head over to Patreon to support the show, or you can pick up some merch! We appreciate support from likes, follows, and shares as well!

-----

Podcasts about therapy do not replace actual therapy, and listening to a podcast about therapy does not signify a therapeutic relationship.

If you or someone you know is in crisis please call or text the nationwide crisis line at 988, or text HELLO to 741741. The Trevor Project has a crisis line for LGBTQ+ young people that can be reached by texting 678678.

Transcript

Your Therapist Needs Therapy - Kate Sayers 2.0 - 2025/02/05 13:56 CST - Transcript

Attendees

Jeremy Schumacher, Kate Sayers

Transcript

Jeremy Schumacher: Hello and welcome to another edition of Your Therapist Needs Therapy, the podcast where two mental health professionals talk about their mental health journeys and how they navigate mental wellness while working in the mental health field. I'm your host, Jeremy Schumacher, licensed marriage and family therapist. I am just reconnecting with my local community. So, you're going to get a lot of repeat guests because I think it's been reggrounding for me to have people back on. so, today I get to have the wonderful Kate Sers back on. Kate is the owner and…

Jeremy Schumacher: operator at Safe Space MK and one of my favorite local therapists. thanks for joining me.

Kate Sayers: Thanks for having me.

Kate Sayers: Your spiel is always perfected. So I appreciate that.

Jeremy Schumacher: That's me being on the spectrum and having very formulaic intros and outros that I hit every time because that's…

Kate Sayers: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: what makes sense to my brain.

Kate Sayers: Yeah. personally or…

Jeremy Schumacher: Hey, how are you doing?

Kate Sayers: professionally. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Professionally, You just became a certified WPath member. Yeah.

Kate Sayers: Yeah. Yeah. So, for folks that don't know, WPATH is World Professional Association for Transgender Health.  So, it's this collection of individuals who locally at their core are all really in support of the LGBTQ community, especially serving folks in the transgender community especially. so, a collection of doctors, nurses, therapists, psychologists, etc. kind of coming together, sharing ideas, learning from each other. So,

Kate Sayers: Yes. Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: And…

Kate Sayers: Yeah. Yeah,…

Jeremy Schumacher: if you're unfamiliar, definitely check out their work. obviously it's really cool that you got certified, but even as a therapist, advocating for trans clients, they have a ton of resources. They have recommendations for how to write letters and things like that and talking points you should hit as you advocate for your clients. So, really wonderful organization with lots of great resources.

Kate Sayers: they have what's called their standards of care and that's something that is always a free resource for other clinicians to look at and I should say yeah clinicians because regardless of discipline whether you're in the medical field or behavioral health they have kind of guidelines for these are based on evidence  the best standards of care for serving trans clients and have been really helpful in terms of again like letterw writing, what to include in your letters to make sure that this is approved by different insurance companies. and that's kind of the extent that I've used it for, but I'm sure that if there's non-therapists listening to this, there's definitely standards of care for providing HRT and things like that.

Kate Sayers: Mhm. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: in a therapist. Yeah. I mean, professionally and personally, how are you doing? I think as a therapist, it's hard. Those go hand in hand, right? Yeah.

Kate Sayers: Yeah. Yeah. Although we're told that they shouldn't. we're told at least old school is professional first and put that mask on and

Jeremy Schumacher: which is it it's old school but also deeply outdated, that's very Freudian and except for 1% of therapists moved on from Freud's worth practicing or…

Jeremy Schumacher: learning anything from

Kate Sayers: Yeah. Yeah.

Kate Sayers: So professionally slashpersonally, I would say 90 plus maybe more than that percent of the clients that I see are in the LGBTQ community. So, these are repetitive kind of recurrent conversations that I'm having with people on a daily basis. and then navigating that in my personal life too because I'm part of the LGBTQ community. And so that if you're a clinician, I think can be a tough position to be in because I don't know that it's completely rare, but it's definitely less common to be processing things in a parallel sense as your clients. usually you've kind of done the work and you're good.

Kate Sayers: And we're all doing it real time. so it's a wild world to be a therapist right now. Yeah. Yeah.

00:05:00

Jeremy Schumacher: working in mental health. I was in higher ed and so school shut down. All the students went home and we had to even figure out if we could see students across state lines to try and…

Kate Sayers: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: keep their care going. So that sort of I refer to as a cultural wound like everyone's going through it at the same time.

Kate Sayers: So, I have occasionally been asked, "Are you doing okay?" by clients, and it's really sweet and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Kate Sayers: endearing, and I want everybody to know that we need to normalize grandparent therapists in this field. your therapist that therapist has a therapist. we all got our people. We are doing the work and caring for ourselves and so that we can show up and really be there for you because it's a pretty unpredictable time. So for anybody that has any anxiety disorder in general, it's tough. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: utility, I'll say, as a therapist to normalize hey, this is crazy. It's okay to feel like it's a lot. but yeah, to reiterate that clients, you don't have to take care of your Good therapists have their support network and their systems. doesn't mean it doesn't suck still. Just means we're well enough resourced to be doing the work.  Yeah.

Kate Sayers: Yeah. Yeah.

Kate Sayers: So, I mean that's kind of how it's showing up for me personally, professionally. I feel like part of the importance of our job is being an advocate. and that to me feels like a very strong personal and professional value. So, you'll see me doing that definitely in session and then know that I'm doing my own kind of stuff outside of sessions,…

Jeremy Schumacher: which is I don't…

Kate Sayers: too. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: if this is your experience, but I've felt really good about owning my own practice right now because I can be very outspoken and aligned and…

Kate Sayers: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: call Elon Musk a Nazi on social media and not have to worry about my boss being mad at me or…

Kate Sayers: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: getting fired or…

Kate Sayers: Getting fired.

Jeremy Schumacher: anything like that.

Kate Sayers: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Kate Sayers: Yeah. Same. It's really important to me. And Yeah. I heard a story about a local weather reporter or something who was fired for making that statement on her personal account. So, it's something that we try to be as professional as possible, but if that's the reality of what's happening, we need to be able to say that too and not fear retribution from an employer.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: It's weird as a therapist I think my lensure I'm really not concerned…

Kate Sayers: Mhm. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: because I haven't met therapists who aren't maybe not as anarchist left past leftist but I haven't met a lot of rightle leaning therapists I think in this profession a lot of folks care about social justice and that's a part of at least reason why they got into the field. So, we have a little bit of safety and security, I think, in practicing and not losing our license. it's not one of those fields that you have a Republican governor, you have a Republican AG, that might be weird. therapy is pretty securely like, no, we take care of people. So, I think that's nice.

Kate Sayers: for therapists serving the LGBTQ community is like what are these new kind of rules and rags or executive orders? how is that going to show up in my daily life in my practice with people? Because there has been an executive order on the books already really restricting and trying to ban affirming care for folks under 19 …

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Nothing.

Kate Sayers: 

Kate Sayers: which is pretty scary. And so I think, as somebody that my practice is essentially based on serving my community, that's something that I'm definitely following pretty closely. and as of right now, I mean, I work with folks 18 and up, but there's that gray area 18 to 19 and maybe a worry of is this common for adult care? and in that case, that would be pretty scary. so definitely know that that's something that I paying attention to and monitoring. Mhm.

00:10:00

Jeremy Schumacher: And it's a tumultuous time to sort of keep up with all that. Executive orders are not laws, but what are laws in modern America? so it's a scary thing.

Jeremy Schumacher: I think I'm drawing a blank on the acronym, but P Flag just sued over one of I think on that very thing you're talking about on that executive order.

Jeremy Schumacher: So a lot of this stuff is going to have to play out in court, which isn't slows the process down, I think, but isn't a for sure deal with the American judicial system being what it is. Yeah.

Kate Sayers: Yeah. …

Kate Sayers: so as clients, coming to session and needing a space to process all this, definitely do it and know that Jeremy and I and other people are keeping a breast of all the latest happenings. And I'm assuming that like me, you would say we're going to find a way around it if it does come to that. I'm not going to, change the practice and…

Kate Sayers: the evidence that I base my practice on. but I will be more mindful of it going forward. Mhm.

Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And I think, it's hard. as I don't know, this is six year 16 of therapy for me. I've been doing it for a while. and I've really moved away from a lot of the way I was taught to do notes.

Kate Sayers: Mhm.

Jeremy Schumacher: My notes are very nondescript, on purpose, not because I'm lazy. I have ADHD, so I'm late at doing my notes, but I don't put a lot of information in there for stuff like this because I don't want some government agency or somebody to try and, rustle through these things because they want to marginalize a community more than they are.

Jeremy Schumacher: So, I do think, it's wise for therapists to stay informed on these things, but also there are little ways that it's not just advocacy for writing letters to our representatives and marching, but don't put a ton of real identifying information in the notes. keep it vague on purpose. That's a way where we can protect our clients and,…

Jeremy Schumacher: do our due diligence, but also be advocating for people. Yeah. Yeah.

Kate Sayers: And…

Kate Sayers: just an asterric on that, it stinks that we have to do that. It sinks that we can't just trust HIPPA and privacy protections and lead with that, right? but yes, I think that is definitely something to be mindful of.

Jeremy Schumacher: And I'm not sitting on top of the mountain as like a wise old man saying I know…

Jeremy Schumacher: how to do it.

Jeremy Schumacher: I just said some of this stuff has already been in motion and some of this stuff like we need to be extra mindful of because things are in flux right now. How are you sort of navigating the balance between staying informed and being overwhelmed? Yeah.

Kate Sayers: Yeah. Mhm.

Kate Sayers: What a great question. Yeah. I mean, and I think one that I ask clients all the time. I am anxious by nature. So I think I tend to be like this over consumer of information and have realized I need to pull back and so I'm doing some limiting of certainly like news that I consume and I have thought really really seriously about getting off of the social media platforms that really have done away with all kinds of rights and…

Kate Sayers: protections exclusive to the LGBTQ community like meta is just really trying to come for us.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Kate Sayers: So I'm curious about that, from your perspective, how are you limiting stuff? How do you see social media kind of going forward, too?

Jeremy Schumacher: I definitely am limiting. my ADHD is such that I'm really like a voracious consumer of information because I get dopamine from it. So being really intentional with that. I used to just sort of scroll headlines and I've sort of cut back on that. when I have time and space and the resources to engage, I do. But I've tried to narrow my focus.

Jeremy Schumacher: I'm not somebody who necessarily works a lot on the social work side of things. So immigration is a thing I care about and it's not a population that I see real regularly or that I'm particularly well informed on.

Kate Sayers: Amen.

Jeremy Schumacher: And so it's one of those things where I care but also that's not something I can devote a ton of energy LGBTQ plus community definitely a bigger chunk of my clientele and one that I care deeply about. I openly identify as queer as So, it's one of those things, but it's weird as a white cis dude to be like I don't want to come in as an expert and take a bunch of space up. And I think I'm probably the most protected class right now to be speaking out.

00:15:00

Jeremy Schumacher: So, I'm trying to strike that balance right now on how do I use my privilege to help marginalized communities in a way that they may not be safe to while not and I don't like coming in as expert So, that's old and well aligned for me, but it is just a little bit different. I would say for me personally in queer spaces, it's just always been like I don't want to be that white dude trumping in and saying I know things. but I think I'm shifting a little bit on that just to be a little bit extra outspoken. Not that I know things, but that I have more privilege to be able to speak out publicly.

Jeremy Schumacher: But yeah, definitely wrestling with I could drop Facebook anytime. I mean, I really only use Facebook for groups. I don't use it personally.

Jeremy Schumacher: but yeah, the meta but I don't know what's better, I'm not on blue sky yet. Might migrate over there if that's better. Discord is weird. Reddit is, fighting with Elon Musk, but also very siloed. So, I would love to live in a world that didn't have social media. I just think as a small business owner, it's like a weird cost of admission.

Kate Sayers: Yeah. That's Yeah.

Kate Sayers: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's definitely something that I've grappled with is personally I would delete everything in an instant. but how else can I connect with or network with other therapists, potential clients or even just learn about happenings in a more rapid pace. it's definitely a tricky place to be.

Kate Sayers: So, I think that's…

Kate Sayers: why it's like being really particular about maybe limiting the accounts that you follow or the amount of time you're spending on these platforms. and news is included in that just for essentially your own sanity during this time period.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: My personal YouTube algorithm is really well curated for sports and sort of my mindless I like disc golf so a lot of disc golf clips and stuff like that and that's sort of been my respit of I don't feel like I have the time or space for news and politics. So I sort of have that as my backup mindless scrolling maybe while I have a lunch break or whatever.

Jeremy Schumacher: And I think that's good for people. I think again our nervous system wasn't wired for every crisis all around the world all the time. So to have that little bit of a break.

Jeremy Schumacher: So I'm definitely more intentional on sort of my mindless or not mindless is maybe a bad intentionally recreational pursuits.

Kate Sayers: Mhm.

Kate Sayers: Mhm.

Jeremy Schumacher: And then having time and space when I'm all right now I need to catch up and be updated. It's also just really hard right now for good journalism. So I subscribe to a bunch of different substacks,…

Kate Sayers: Mhm.

Jeremy Schumacher: but that's very messy and disorganized in my opinion. So trying to find and…

Jeremy Schumacher: listening to other people who are, on top of things like independent reporting for good sources because I think that's really important right now to be getting good information.

Kate Sayers: Right. Right. Yeah. I tend to gravitate a little bit more towards Associated Press right now and maybe looking at The Hill occasionally, but Associated Press for me tends to be a good place to get info. and in terms of the recreational stuff to me it's like how I am an avid reader and so to me reading lots of queer authors supporting queer businesses and I don't really like consumers and I'm kind of an anti-consumerous person and so how can I

Kate Sayers: 

Kate Sayers: just, cut out these big stores that have rolled back all their DEI and things like that, too. so, that vote with your dollar kind of a thing, but to me,…

Kate Sayers: I'm just going to keep my dollar and maybe not vote right now. So, …

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. …

Jeremy Schumacher: and I think again just those little ways. think maybe it was AOC. I think it's the only outspoken politician who's doing good job fighting against things right now.

00:20:00

Kate Sayers: yeah. Yeah. Heat.

Jeremy Schumacher: But like said all the little actions of resistance add up. So, I love all the folks go coders and people who understand technology better than I do who have gummed up the ICE reporting system by reporting Melania and Elon Musk as illegal immigrants. that sounds almost comical if this wasn't so serious that we need people to be gumming up the works and…

Jeremy Schumacher: making this harder like

Kate Sayers: Mhm.

Jeremy Schumacher: So I think finding that thing and then supporting your local community and I have had this conversation with three other guests for the podcast so people keep hearing it but having joy in your community is part of resistance right now too. Not bury your heads in the sand…

Kate Sayers: Mhm. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: but we can't have our nervous system be on fire all the time and expect to get through this in any sort of healthy way.

Kate Sayers: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. and to your point that there's many different kinds of resistance. we see big things and splashy things like going to rallies and yes that there's a time and a space for that but I think we can't do that all day every day. And so how can we embed these things into daily life? staying connected to things that are important to you regardless of politics. to me, reading is a huge thing or exercising or having tea. they might seem like small things, but they're acts of resistance in that I'm not letting somebody dictate, what I do for the rest of my day.

Kate Sayers: this is important to me to stay true to myself and my values and have some days that are just like gosh, the world sucks. And then pick myself up and say we can do it and we're going to have fun and listen to music and be silly and…

Kate Sayers: and still stay true to ourselves.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: I find winter in Wisconsin has been unfortunate this year because it's been very cold and…

Kate Sayers: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: very dry. So not even snow,…

Kate Sayers: 

Kate Sayers: Yeah. All right.

Jeremy Schumacher: which is the fun part of winter.

Kate Sayers: Yeah. Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: But trying to get outside in nature. I've got two dogs, so they don't care who the president is. They need to exercise. And so that's really grounding for me to just sort of have and…

Kate Sayers: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: I got two kids so having some dependence whether it's my children or my pets to just be and they are just going about their daily life and I need to join them and be present in that process too. Yeah.

Kate Sayers: Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: It's like I'm a little salty I will say as a millennial to just be like man it'd be nice if our generation got any break. I was on a Zoom call earlier this week with some older therapists and they said something about like that would really fire the boomers up and I was like with love and respect in my heart I as a millennial have no faith of the boomers doing the right thing. So yeah,…

Kate Sayers: Yeah, it is.

Jeremy Schumacher: what fourth once in lifetime recession coming up here, it's just exhausting at some point.

Kate Sayers: 

Kate Sayers: Yeah. Yeah. so I think it's like these equal parts of and how I don't know what the denominator is of this equation, but equal parts of resistance, joy, grounding,…

Kate Sayers: sleeping, whatever we need to do to get through and keep the essence of who we are. and not let all of this stuff like erode all of that.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And I try to balance optimism with doom and gloom as again learning from other cultures again as a white dude being aware that people of color have been living through far more oppressive times than I am living through right now and learning from that not needing to reinvent the wheel. I'm very much looking forward to pride this year.

Jeremy Schumacher: I think it'll be stressful in some ways,…

Kate Sayers: Yeah. Mhm.

Jeremy Schumacher: but I think in times of resistance, the queer joy is really powerful and learning from older generations who have gone through this already and still show up for things and are still, doing that I think that's really powerful for us to experience and participate in, but for younger generations to see the hatred isn't changing the culture overall like society.

Jeremy Schumacher: still progresses slowly over the march of history.

Jeremy Schumacher: So I think that stuff's important.

Kate Sayers: Yeah. Yeah.

00:25:00

Kate Sayers: And regardless of all the executive orders, it doesn't change that there's queer people and trans people and non-binary people and we'll continue to be here and take up space. Yeah. I think your point about pride is definitely something to look forward to this year.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Kate Sayers: So, let's hold on to that if nothing else.  Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And again locally I try not to be an old person about technology if you don't have community and all it is online definitely participate. but finding your local community I think just looking at it from a nervous system perspective regulates when you can participate with things in person. Go to that concert. Go see that queer comedian.

Jeremy Schumacher: go to your local businesses that are queer affirming or…

Jeremy Schumacher: queer owned, that matters. That regulates you in a certain way where reading the headlines disregulates And then being around people where it's like, we're aligned on this and there's no debate needed. You don't have to explain anything. I got the pride flag outside my business, So, I think that inerson stuff is really important.

Kate Sayers: Mhm. Yeah.

Kate Sayers: I agree too. Yeah. And I'm like go to your library, go to your that's a big one for me.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Heat.

Kate Sayers: But yeah, anywhere where you can find community. and especially I think at this point, a lot of suggestions I'll have for clients is like LGBTQ center or your trans support groups or if there isn't one,… let's create one.  But somewhere where you can just be amongst people and you don't, like you said, have to explain yourself or hide any parts of yourself. You can just show up and experience that with other people.

Kate Sayers: 

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And the LGBTQ center in Milwaukee Has really good information on unfortunately the window closing on doing things like updating your passport. but has people who are up to date on those things and has things like shout out to I know my friend Tesnney is doing some self-defense classes down at the LGBTQ center just to ground people and some mindful movement and to feel safe and connected in your community that's really lovely and I think again needed right now.

Jeremy Schumacher: So doing some of that stuff in person does your nervous system well.

Kate Sayers: Mhm. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Tesney and I play D and D. So little shout out to Tesnney. but yeah, I don't know. I try and have these conversations and I've been really grateful to the local therapists who have sort of you made time to connect because right it affects us too. we're all going through this simultaneously in real time.

Kate Sayers: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm grateful that you had me on today. it's refreshing to be able to just, be in community with people. So Mhm.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. It makes me feel less crazy than when I read the headlines and I'm like, "Did everybody lose their minds? What are we doing?" And then to have a conversation that someone just gets it is very grounding.

Kate Sayers: Yeah. Yeah.

Kate Sayers: Yeah. I agree.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Awesome.

Jeremy Schumacher: Hey, if people want to learn more about your practice, if they want to connect with you, where do they go? How do they find you?

Kate Sayers: So, as of now,…

Kate Sayers: I still am on Instagram. So, you can find me at safespacemke there.

Kate Sayers: And then the same thing from my website safespacemke.com. so, I look forward to connecting with people and I'm really glad that we got to connect today. Jeremy Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and…

Jeremy Schumacher: I still am on Instagram, too. I don't know for how long, but yes, we will have links in the show notes wherever you listen to the podcast. Drop down in the show notes. We'll have links to Kate's socials and website to make that easy to find.

Kate Sayers: And special plug, if you're a coder or somebody that does computer stuff,…

Kate Sayers: come up with a new app for us because I would love to not be on Instagram anymore.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yes. Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: I hear good things about Blue Sky, but that's like a Twitter replacement and I never used Twitter,…

Kate Sayers: Yeah. It's like a Twitter.

Kate Sayers: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: 

Kate Sayers: Yeah. The market is there for you,…

Jeremy Schumacher: I don't know. Yes. Yeah.

Kate Sayers: whoever you are.

Jeremy Schumacher: And we'll have some cool links too, for other local LGBTQ stuff in Milwaukee, down in the links. So, just trying to share that information. Again, another small act of resistance that matters to let people know safe places to go and…

Kate Sayers: Thank you so much for having me.

Jeremy Schumacher: cool safe affirming events that are going on. So, trying to keep on top of that stuff as well. Hey, thanks so much for taking the time to join me today.

00:30:00

Jeremy Schumacher: And to all our wonderful listeners, thanks for tuning in again. I don I can't promise this. Hopefully, we'll have fun episodes sometime soon, but for now, we're going to have a lot of grounding conversations because I think that's what everybody needs. But thanks for tuning in again. We will be back next week with another new episode. Take care, everyone.

Meeting ended after 00:30:31 👋

This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it was created.