Your Therapist Needs Therapy 96 - Being Present in the Moment with Madeline Bush

Jeremy is joined this week by fellow Milwaukee therapist, Madeline Bush. Jeremy and Madeline explore her journey from early service work to private practice, where she now focuses on adult individuals and couples. Together, they dig into the regional stigma around therapy, the importance of ritual and grounding practices, and how play and mindfulness can shift relational dynamics. The conversation touches on DBT, the healing power of nature, and how relationships are both deeply sacred and gloriously absurd.

You can find more info about Madeline and her practice at madelinebushcounseling.com, and she is licensed to see people in both Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. 

Jeremy has all his practice info at Wellness with Jer, and you can find him on Instagram and YouTube. To show your love for the show you can pick up some merch! We appreciate support from likes, follows, and shares as well!

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Podcasts about therapy do not replace actual therapy, and listening to a podcast about therapy does not signify a therapeutic relationship.

If you or someone you know is in crisis please call or text the nationwide crisis line at 988, or text HELLO to 741741. The Trevor Project has a crisis line for LGBTQ+ young people that can be reached by texting 678678.

Transcript

Your Therapist Needs Therapy - Madeline Bush - 2025/04/29 09:46 CDT - Transcript

Attendees

Jeremy Schumacher, Madeline Bush

Transcript

Jeremy Schumacher: Hello and welcome to another edition of Your Therapist Needs Therapy, the podcast where two mental health professionals talk about their mental health journey and they navigate mental wellness while working in the mental health field. I'm your host, Jeremy Schumacher, licensed marriage and family therapist. To support the show, subscribe. We've got merch. Put that in the links, too. I'm excited to have a local therapist on. somebody who I've come into contact with recently, and I love to highlight local folks here in Milwaukee, and I like to talk to people who do work with couples. So, I'm very excited to be joined today by Maline Bush.

Jeremy Schumacher: Adeline, thanks for joining me.

Madeline Bush: Happy to be here.

Madeline Bush: Thanks, Jeremy.

Jeremy Schumacher: I always start every episode with the same question, which is, how did you come to work in the mental health field?

Madeline Bush: I really feel like the theme of service was just modeled to me within my family.  So my mom was really big into service. her populations that she tends still to serve is the aging geriatric community. So she was very involved in nursing homes and assisted living's communities. And then my dad and I had a annual tradition where we would go and volunteer. So from a pre-teen age, I was seeing my parents do it.  I was participating it in it with my folks and from there it just kind of took off.

Madeline Bush: I went to college and thought I might study nonprofit administration and I started to and then a lot of other therapists say my psychology classes just became more and more interesting and so I followed that thread and…

Madeline Bush: a few years later I decided therapy was where I wanted to serve in the mental health field.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeline Bush: And it's really felt like the best fit. I love our field so much. I often tell folks it doesn't really feel like it just feels like this enjoyable place to go and do and spend time with people you care about. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. capitalism sucks, but doing therapy is really awesome. So, what was sort of that journey to finding therapy? You said your site classes were the most interesting ones. was that I want the stereotypical room with a couch and…

Jeremy Schumacher: I talk to people or did you sort of filter your way through the wide field of psychology?

Madeline Bush: No, I definitely had the filter experience.

Madeline Bush: So after in undergrad, you do volunteer opportunities and some internships here and there. So I started to dip my toe in service in mental health.  So, a crisis hotline for folks of domestic violence, volunteering at a place with kiddos who had been through abusive situations. and then post college, I moved out to Chicago because I went to college on the East Coast, I moved out to Chicago and I started working in a school that had a program for pregnant teens where we did one counseling and group counseling and home visits once the child had arrived. And so that direct one-on-one relationship, that was my first time really having that experience and I loved it. And I was still kind of confused.

Madeline Bush: Do I want to be in a school setting like a school psychologist type or do I want something a bit more clinical? So after that experience, I moved up to Milwaukee and I got some experience working in a residential treatment center.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeline Bush: So I very different, and way more acuty, but that's where it really solidified for me that I want to go to grad school and I want to pursue mental health and I want to pursue counseling. So yeah, then after I think it was maybe three years out of undergrad, I was like, "Okay, back to school. Here we go. Let's get the piece of paper that you need." And I went back east for grad school. And then after that, I just straight from there started working in different levels of care. I worked in a partial program. I helped out in an intensive outpatient program.

Madeline Bush: And then eventually found my way to private practice. So, …

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeline Bush: it's like trickling through all the levels of care and gaining the experience, which I'm very grateful for now.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. I'm smiling as you sort of talk about the super high intensity places where you volunteered or had placement opportunities, which is I think we're most of us who experience that. I started at a homeless shelter. can appreciate the lens that gives you and…

Jeremy Schumacher: also I was not qualified to be doing the work I was doing then no definitely not.

Madeline Bush: My 22-year-old self had no right to be in that room.

00:05:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Do you mind I'm gonna ask a geography question. What was sort of like your going to school out east?

Jeremy Schumacher: what was sort of the idea around therapy or…

Jeremy Schumacher: psychology because here in the Midwest I'll say there's still a stigma attached to it here. and what I've heard as a Midwesterner is on the coasts that stigma is less. Have you noticed any of that or…

Madeline Bush: Yes, I would definitely agree with that.

Jeremy Schumacher: or would you sort of agree with that?

Madeline Bush: So, part of my practice is still virtually in the Philadelphia area and I definitely notice that when I do an intake with a new Philadelphia client or Pennsylvania client in general and I always ask, "Tell me about your therapy timeline. Have you been in therapy before? What's that experience like? What did you not like? What was the personality of the therapist that meshed or maybe didn't mesh?" So, we look at their past,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yep.

Madeline Bush: their therapeutic past. And for my East Coasters, it seems like there's nearly always a story about therapy, especially because I work with adults. So, I went to therapy as an adolescent. I've been in coup's therapy before. You're my second therapist. I did it a couple years ago. But for my Midwesterners, for my Milwaukee folks, not all, but some definitely come in and say, "This is my first experience. I've read about it. I've thought about it, but I've never really taken that first." initial action step.

Madeline Bush: So this is me trying that for a first time. So even that little data point has stuck out to me as I've worked now in both markets.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: It's definitely doing the podcast I obviously get to talk to therapists from all over the place. but one of my specialties is religious trauma and it would be impossible for me to just do that if I wanted to focus down,…

Jeremy Schumacher: which I don't. But I couldn't fill my case load on that. Whereas people on the east coast and west coast absolutely fill their case load on that. And what I have been told by folks out on the coast it's almost weird if you don't have a therapist out here. I think in the Midwest the vibe is still " you're openly talking about your therapist.

Madeline Bush: Yeah. Right.

Jeremy Schumacher: That makes me uncomfortable.

Madeline Bush: I definitely agree with that sentiment of it's strange if you don't have a therapist. if you…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeline Bush: if you haven't listened to self-help podcasts, if you haven't read that one book or know who Bnee Brown is or, any of these kind of more poppy psychology things, that's definitely what I experienced living so many years and growing up on the East Coast, too, of just it's accepted. It's normalized.

Jeremy Schumacher: And I think people sometimes forget how big our geographic continent is that you're sort of vaguely aware the South has a different culture than the Midwest but I don't know even in something like this like a profession

Madeline Bush: Yes. Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: where you're working shows up a lot differently for how people feel about it.

Madeline Bush: Absolutely. Yeah. I agree with that. And at the end of the day, I mean, you hope that eventually we all get on board with the idea of just supporting our well-being and checking in and…

Madeline Bush: having a conversation about…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeline Bush: how the heck am I really doing? what's really going on in my mind, body, spirit, heart, all of the good stuff? How am I doing? It's because that's really at core…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Right.

Madeline Bush: what we do. We check in on people and allow them the opportunity to check in on themselves.

Jeremy Schumacher: And I think I mean obviously I've been in practice for 16 years in the Midwest. I don't understand the hesitancy,…

Madeline Bush: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: but I'm biased. Maline, what was sort of the journey to private practice and…

Jeremy Schumacher: eventually coming to a place where you wanted to open your own space and work for yourself?

Madeline Bush: I think the journey was fueled by a lot of serendipity and…

Madeline Bush: wonderful mentorship and leadership too. I was really lucky to have some in my feeling some powerhouse mentors who helped me make the leap, decide that I could do it. supported my own growth and learning of what are going to be my therapies that I offer and how's it going to go and how do I keep track of the whole 50 minutes so that I don't go over or under the little things to the big things of what can I deliver that I actually feel a sense of passion and drive to deliver these modalities, these interventions for folks and…

Madeline Bush: and the right folks find me. so that was something that I and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeline Bush: and some of my mentors I'm still in close contact with and they become the blend of friend and colleague and mentor which is fantastic. I think it's necessary too when you're in private practice. You need to have those people that you admire and you respect around you.

00:10:00

Jeremy Schumacher: And I think as you my experience has been owning my own practice of the more aligned I am in my business practices, the more I draw not just clients but my network professionally is far more aligned than it used to be.

Madeline Bush: Yeah, for sure. Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: And that's really helpful especially…

Jeremy Schumacher: if you're in solo practice and you can feel a little bit like you're on an island sometimes to have that network of professionals that you admire…

Madeline Bush: Yes. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: but trust can ask random questions.

Jeremy Schumacher: I just texted someone the other day. I was like, "Hey, I'm donating a gift basket. Do I put a business card in it? That feels weird." And it's like, I don't need to take a class on that, but it's a different experience of this doesn't make sense to me from a business owner perspective, but I should ask someone who's been doing it longer than I have.

Madeline Bush: Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. one of my first mentors said something way back when that really stuck with me. He said, especially when I'm in a professional setting, I love to be the least smart smartest person in the room. I love to learn from other people and be inspired by them and feel this kind of internal drive of the way your mind works is lighting up my mind and that's a great feeling. this collaborative feeling and that really resonated because that's something I try very hard to attend to while in private practice which like you just said it's can be super isolating and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Madeline Bush: weeks blend into months and you realize you haven't connected with a colleague in a very long time. so yeah, that's something that's a core value of mine in practice, which is I love learning from my colleagues and connecting with my colleagues and ideally feeling like I'm in a room of people who I love the way all of your brains work. And that's making my mind feel so excited again, rejuvenated about our field.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, for sure. I hold that space with clients,…

Jeremy Schumacher: but it's different with other professionals, too. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about sort of the way you like to work with people and the populations that you like to see?

Madeline Bush: Yeah. …

Madeline Bush: So I do adult individuals and I work with couples. And the core piece that I'm most passionate about is relationships. So, I love working with Couples to me is probably my most tender spot. I think it's such a sacred, beautiful thing to be with someone else and decide that we have a connection that's important enough to us that we're going to go in a room and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Heat.

Madeline Bush: we're going to prioritize that connection's health. I think that's so meaningful. no matter what currently going on, it's not always bright and sunny.  Sometimes it's really hard, heavy stuff that they're coming in with and it's still an act of prioritizing that initial connection that they're coming in to meet with us. So couples work is where my heart really beats the hardest. And when I'm working with my individuals, I have kind of a few pockets of folks I work with. So, as I said, I love working with people who are going through relationship struggles on an individual relationship.

Madeline Bush: That could be professionally, that could be with a roommate, that could be with a partner, and also for a lot of my folks, it's just the relationship with themselves, how they believe in themselves, do they trust themselves, have they ever had the opportunity to really hone self-rust? So, that's an arena. And then I also hold on my case load a corner of folks…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.  How were you sort of exposed to the idea of coup's therapy? Okay.

Madeline Bush: who are struggling with anxiety or obsessivecompulsive disorder.  And that's because I started my career in that realm. So, it feels very important to me to continue to do that work because it's so specific. and I had a lot of experience in it. So, it's one of my values to keep providing that for folks who find me and need that cognitive behavioral approach. yeah.

Madeline Bush: I think it was a lot of self-study. it was reading books. It was hearing, an NPR interview with someone who wrote a book and just finding that interesting or enjoying the way that the author said certain things and then just starting to find more and more reading more books, taking courses, and eventually feeling this kind of intuitive voice in me that said, I think that's where I really want to go. I think it's less about being invited in and…

Madeline Bush: more about saying, I'm going to pursue this. I'm going to do it because it feels right in me and the excitement I feel about it is pushing me to go after it. so it wasn't like this organic,…

00:15:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeline Bush: I got this one opportunity. it was a very conscious I'm going to pursue this. I'm going to go after it.

Jeremy Schumacher: I find because I'm as a LMFT licensed marriage and family therapist my whole I was taught how to do couples therapy first.

Madeline Bush: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: But it made sense to my brain. I have ADHD so I like a lot of things going on in what I hear from other therapists is there's too much going on or it's too intense and for me my brain lights up at that. So that's what I like.

Jeremy Schumacher: But I remember the first time I saw a couple's therapy live where I studied we got to watch therapy behind a one-way mirror and so you could watch somebody doing it live and I was 20 because I graduated college early and…

Jeremy Schumacher: was young for my grade. So 20-year-old who doesn't know anything I see this couple session and I'm like this is what I want to do for the rest of my life.

Madeline Bush: H. Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: And everybody else in the room is "Okay, Jeremy, you don't know anything yet. take your time." But it made so much sense to my brain that were relational and having that relational lens that can filter a lot of information quickly that way and explain it to clients in an approachable way.

Jeremy Schumacher: But then once you start seeing that, like you said, with your individual clients, you still have this relational lens.

Jeremy Schumacher: you can't turn that off once you start seeing the world as these sort of overlapping ecosystems that we all exist in

Madeline Bush: Yes. I completely agree. Yeah. and I don't know if this happens to you, but it is to me one of the fun mysteries of our field is you could be sitting in a session where you find yourself saying something or asking something to your client and afterwards in that 10-minute window that ideally you've kept yourself. You don't always, but ideally You might have this moment of gosh, that felt like it really landed. I hope it did. But there's also something about it that landed for me as a person.

Madeline Bush: 

Madeline Bush: maybe I needed to hear some of that reminder too because at the end of it, we're also human beings who are going through relationships and life and…

Madeline Bush: growth ideally. And so it's this really interesting parallel narrative that can happen, that's a very private experience.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And I think it's not always appropriate to process that with clients in real time.

Madeline Bush: 

Madeline Bush: Of course. Yeah. Mhm.

Jeremy Schumacher: Sometimes that can be therapeutic. but that is I think where having a network of folks is really important and having minded professionals because it's a weird job being a therapist and…

Madeline Bush: Mhm. Absolutely.

Jeremy Schumacher: I try not to put it on a pedestal. but also with HIPPA and all the things we're working like we can't talk to people about it.

Jeremy Schumacher: So you could have this really meaningful experience with a client and share in that and…

Jeremy Schumacher: participate as a fellow human and then you can't go home and talk about it with your own, support network of not professionals, right? You can't go to your spouse or you can't go to your best friend and talk about it. So it's a weird profession in sort of how some of those things work where we show up ourselves and can experience a lot of change in that process and also have to experience it solo sometimes.

Madeline Bush: Yes. Yes.

Madeline Bush: Yes. contain it, right? Yeah, absolutely.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: This is a less fun part of the podcast. as the world's on fire, both literally and me met metaphorically. how do you sort of navigate your own mental health? What do you do to take care of yourself while being a business owner,…

Jeremy Schumacher: while showing up for clients, while having existential dread in the headlines every day? What do you do to sort of navigate all of those moving pieces?

Madeline Bush: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeline Bush: I'm a big ritual person. so I find that I will do better with self-care if it's laid out in a way that it's an easy ritual for me to perform. There's step one, then there's step two, and then all I have to do is start it, and then I've got the momentum going of what's going to make me feel more grounded,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Madeline Bush: more that day. So for me in particular, I'm a morning person.  So at some point in the morning, whether it's first upon waking or somewhere in the middle of my day, I really try to take 15 minutes where I'm present with my own kind of check-in, a feeling of where am I today? And that might involve some music that grounds me. That might involve some journaling. That might involve reading some poetry or reading from another book that speaks to me.

Madeline Bush: But I always try to have there be a little stack of available tools next to me when I'm gonna sit and do this so that all I have to do is start, pull out the poetry book, flip to a random page, sit with it. Do I feel like journaling? Great. My journal's right there with the pen.

00:20:00

Madeline Bush: That's really the thing that grounds me the most. And then from there, and we see this now in Milwaukee today, getting outside and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Okay.

Madeline Bush: feeling like the frigid cold air to ground me or feeling the sunshine on my face connecting back to my animal side, if you will, that being outside is good for me and it's nourishing me. And it's also great to feel like a little speck on the planet. you're outside and you see all these things happening in nature, these fun, wild things, and all of a sudden you remember that you're just part of this whole soup pot of a world. And to me that can be comforting.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah. That's all really lovely and I'm just chuckling as I work with religious trauma.

Jeremy Schumacher: Opening the door to that world for folks…

Madeline Bush: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: who are coming out of some high control religion I try not to shape where we're going to land but obviously that's sort of my view on things as well. And so yeah that we're just on a rock hurdling through space and…

Madeline Bush: Yeah. Yes.  Hey,

Jeremy Schumacher: we get to sort of choose what we do with our time and that's really freeing even if it can be a bit overwhelming sometimes. but we do have all these, I think, systemic factors, capitalism, if your insurance is tied to employment and stuff like this that makes it hard for people to connect with the ground under their feet, we call it grounding, but literally I think people sometimes miss that I use a lot of nature metaphors for the work that I do.

Jeremy Schumacher: I'm talking about seasons and talking about periods of growth and nurturance and maintenance and are we planting maybe we just need to be patient right now and wait for the seed but that's sort of I think taught out of people we don't always connect with that seasonal change. It's in Milwaukee if it's 40 degrees or negative 20 degrees you go to work either way. If it's bright sunny day and…

Jeremy Schumacher: lovely you still go to work. So we don't have those seasonal shifts in a lot of our daily lives that I think are really important for us.

Madeline Bush: I agree.

Madeline Bush: And what comes up in my mind when you're saying that is this place that we get caught between accepting the season, accepting the day, the moment, and then feeling that really intense urge to problem solve it, which I try to highlight for my folks. That's beautiful that you're trying to problem solve. What a way to try to take care of yourself. And if it's not working, maybe we look at the other side of the coin,…

Madeline Bush: which is how can I let this be just what it is right here in this moment? How can I be here that's in front of me?

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeline Bush: Which I know much easier said than done for so many of us and especially in this current world that we're living in.

Jeremy Schumacher: And I think that's why I use nature so much because very few people are out here trying to problem solve the daily weather.

Jeremy Schumacher: Should we respond to climate change? Yes, absolutely. But the daily weather, you just plan for it, it's a thing. It's information that we take into account and make a plan for.

Madeline Bush: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeline Bush: Yes. Mhm.

Jeremy Schumacher: And I think again with getting comfortable with there are lots of things in our life that are out of our control. I talk about this relational lens we both use the people we are in relation with are not under our control.

Madeline Bush: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: We're taking information and planning accordingly, but we're not controlling it in the same way that we don't control the weather, but we might take a rain jacket with us or we might grab a sweater. So, I think that's just really relevant for people. And so many folks I work with talk about why don't we practice this? and I don't have a good answer for that. hey, you're practicing it now in therapy, but something like ritual,…

Jeremy Schumacher: something like connecting to nature, those are things we could practice. and we just don't because question mark I don't know we need to be good little worker bees or we need to get a high score on the ACT like I don't know

Madeline Bush: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeline Bush: I think maybe There's safety in being able to influence and flex sides of our identity that we feel we control. And then when we're caught in a place where we can't control something, we can't control the other, we can't control, then it feels very uncertain,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yes.

Madeline Bush: insecure, unsafe, and we try to claw it back. We hate when we can't control it. I help lead some dialectical behavior groups, and DBT is very skills focused, and a group is a skills group.  for talking a skill and that's your homework every week. So, one of the modules in the skill workbook is interpersonal effectiveness. How do we get what we want in relationships? How do we maintain relationships? And how do we lead with self-respect in relationships, too? Let's juggle all of these at the same time.

00:25:00

Madeline Bush: So, one of the things that comes up when we're teaching from that module is…

Madeline Bush: what are the things that will get in the way of these skills? Let's just call a spade. These skills are great on paper and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeline Bush: they will not always work. And here are some things that will get in the way. And I love that the creator of DBT,'re I laugh about it too because it's almost like she had a sense of humor to say, "Hey, I know that I put all this work and effort and research into the skills and I'm still going to tell you they're not going to work sometimes and here's Let me at least get ahead of it by telling you why." One of the core things is Other people are not ready. They're not in that emotional place. Whatever it is. So as skillful as you may try to be as present as grounded whatever word we want to use sometimes life is life and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Madeline Bush: then we turn towards acceptance and comfort with that right where's my rain jacket I guess it is going to rain after all yes me Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And Marshall Lahan is one of the big names in the early DPT movement. That's whose workbook I use. I don't know if you are talking about that same one. and yeah, when I introduced that concept to people because I have a sports background and I blend a lot of my coaching approach to things. So I love the skills approach.

Madeline Bush: Yeah. Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: But with DBT too, you have a deep philosophy background to it. It's scientific based and there's philosophy. So Paige is explaining a concept like radical acceptance.

Jeremy Schumacher: I'm such a top- down processor that I need why is this working?

Madeline Bush: Yes. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: I will accept the skill works. I will practice it but I'm never going to use it regularly if I don't know why it works. And I see so many people who need both. They need the skill and how is this actually supposed to accomplish this thing.

Jeremy Schumacher: Otherwise, it sounds a little wooey sometimes, especially some of the mindfulness skills with DBT.

Jeremy Schumacher: And I get that hesitancy. So, I love DBT as the skills approach that it takes, but also the philosophy that sort of is in the background of why these things are working.

Madeline Bush: Yes. Yes.

Madeline Bush: Yeah. Yeah. I also find that if someone can understand why,…

Madeline Bush: then maybe they're more likely to do the run and leap of faith towards just trying it out, seeing how does it feel, how did I make it my own? And in these groups, we'll talk about remixing the skills to make it your version of that skill for that moment, which can feel like a big task and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeline Bush: at the same time might feel a little empowering. It's an opportunity. So, yeah, I definitely agree that why behind it is very helpful to so many folks.

Jeremy Schumacher: And just the skills approach, I think that's so relevant for folks…

Jeremy Schumacher: who again, I think we get hung up on control a lot. They want to be able to control things. when really sometimes we need to react or we need to self soo or we need to do these different things. So I have people go through the whole workbook and say two or three skills that you can use regularly. let's not try and master all of them. let's find two or three that we can sort of carry with us and keep in our utility belt when we need them and they work for most scenarios that we're going to be in.

Madeline Bush: Yes. Yes.

Madeline Bush: Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And I think that's so calming for people who might get overwhelmed at the concept of a workbook or myself would never actually read a whole workbook front and again then it's just like yeah, we have these different skills. We have these different things we can pull out as we need them.

Jeremy Schumacher: because we will and that's just sort of baked into the process of sometimes we need to self soo sometimes we have things that we don't handle particularly well and…

Jeremy Schumacher: here's our different skill sets that we can use and it's okay if you're bad at it it's okay if nobody's taught you it before or you've never practiced it I have again the sports analogy but I talk about shooting a left-handed free throw like you're going to be bad at it you need to practice because I think a lot of people hear mindfulness and they think yoga and they're like I'm not flexible so I'm not going to like that and…

Madeline Bush: Mhm. Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: it's working past some of that to say you are going to be bad at it and that's okay let's practice it I see a lot of intellectual folks who flex their brain muscles but not their emotional muscles or not their self soothing muscles and so being able to explain it in a way that I think makes sense to them it's like yeah this is a muscle you've never built up so let's do

Madeline Bush: And maybe there's an opportunity for some fun,…

Madeline Bush: for some play in that, if I'm learning to play an instrument for the first time, I of course could go down the rabbit hole of judgment and criticism and self-consciousness. Of course, That's the easy rabbit hole to go down. And I could also choose to say, what, this is going to be goofy and absurd and twinkle little star has never felt so or…

00:30:00

Madeline Bush: it sounded so terrible and I'm going to do it because why the heck not? So that's something I lean on a lot too. Whether it's from my own practice of staying grounded these days or in the therapy room,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yes.

Madeline Bush: how can we bring in some lightness, some laughter, some play, some awe of how funny and mysterious is this life that we're going through, Because that sometimes can feel like we're lowering the stakes and we're finding a way to make it feel Very similar to what you just said, Jeremy, about just choose three skills from this workbook. Let's not make it heavy. Let's keep it accessible.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yep. Yeah. you talk about ritual as part of your own self-care, but do you use that terminology with clients?

Madeline Bush: I do.  And it's interesting in my observation when I look at my past week of work when I'm doing my notes let's say I'll notice that these random themes will have popped up for the week everyone might be talking about different things but the theme is there of what the theme of the week was so in this last month I've noticed that the longing for feeling more safe grounded

Madeline Bush: steady has come up a lot and again people are talking about in different ways.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yep.

Madeline Bush: Feeling it in their partnership. They're not feeling it at work with the review they just had that whatever right but that theme of how do I create my own sense of security, safety, grounding, belonging has been coming up a lot more. So this is something that I've been talking through with folks and we've been trying to get creative and again playful, fun, open with it. It doesn't have to be this beautiful on paper ritual that you've established that people would admire.

Madeline Bush: It's just whatever sounds fun to you.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeline Bush: What would be enjoyable to try to do every day? Even if you do it for 2 minutes, what would light you up?

Jeremy Schumacher: And I talk about ritual a lot as well as just sort of a way to I don't want to say trick, but I hate the phrase life hack. but we're being intentional with brain playing with our own brain psychology.

Madeline Bush: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: If you light a candle before you do something, your brain responds differently to it. I don't know,…

Madeline Bush: Yes. Yes. Mhm.

Jeremy Schumacher: we're simple mammals. some of this stuff is if we flower it up, if we add just a touch of circumstance to it, our brain responds differently to it.

Jeremy Schumacher: And that little bit of intention setting, that little bit of holding some extra space lets our brain do something different with that in a way…

Madeline Bush: Yes. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: where we could chug our morning coffee and rush through our day or we could take an extra minute or two and really enjoy it and make it a special part of our day that we look forward to. Yeah. Yeah.

Madeline Bush: Like I said earlier, be here You don't get here again. It'll be gone in an instant. So, Participate in it. Why not? Yes. Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: And I think again for so many folks that's why I like DBT and skill building because it is a skill a lot of people haven't practiced. It's thinking about our next semester's classes or…

Madeline Bush: Yes. Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: the work project that's due. It's a lot of the next thing. Okay, this is done. what's next?

Jeremy Schumacher: And it's not a lot of here and now. Yeah.

Madeline Bush: I'll often chat with my folks about how again trying to view it almost through a strengths lens that our nervous system really wants to focus on yesterday or tomorrow from a safety perspective. What could I have learned? What could I have done differently from yesterday? And how do I influence tomorrow to keep myself safe and on the right path and feeling good and no conflict? that's wonderful that our system is trying to do that for us. how loving, That trying to go strengths and saying, "Does this help us today?" If we're caught in tomorrow or yesterday, then what's the opportunity we're missing today? And maybe that can feel most empowering, scary, too, to say, "Let me focus on today.

Madeline Bush: Let me get comfortable with the rain. Let me get celebratory of the sun that's here today." And what is it like if I actually lend myself that opportunity to stay here today?

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And then in coup's work expanding that to a whole another set of variables of that…

Madeline Bush: Yes. Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: how do we connect in the here and now with this other person.

00:35:00

Madeline Bush: One of my favorite schools of thought to pull with my couples is Stan Topkins psychobiological approach to couples therapy, which easier said is packed.  And I love his work because he's very candid talking about that the health of he calls it initial couple that small ecosystem between these two people, if it's clean and healthy and fair and just, then that means that the ecosystems that exist outside of it are going to be better off.

Madeline Bush: the children, the grandparents, the neighbors, the teachers, the friends, all of the other layers of that ecosystem are going to be better if the couple bubble is clear. So, I chat with my couples about some of the things you might learn and adopt in individual therapy, how can we bring that in here that you two are looking out for each other and…

Madeline Bush: really following that agreement that I'm taking you on and you're taking me on. it's still my responsibility to look out for me. That's a way that I'm taking care of you is by looking out for me,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeline Bush: it's a big circle that happens. And it's something that I think a lot of couples haven't considered that What is the commitment that I made when I said being my partner? Whether we're married or not doesn't matter. It's just saying, "Hey, you want to be my partner?" And what does that really mean? What's the agreement?

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. And I think there's so much complexity that goes into that.

Jeremy Schumacher: I think so much of the practice of being present in the moment is helpful for couples too…

Jeremy Schumacher: because we get bogged down in what happens three weeks ago, five years ago while we were dating, whatever it might be, or we're too far into the future of when the kids leave the house or we're coming up on retirement age or whatever it is. And there's so much there and…

Madeline Bush: Mhm. Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: it's like sometimes we just need to go for a walk together and remember how we like each other and…

Madeline Bush: Yes. Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: that doesn't solve the issues but so many people again are skipping that step. So many people we need to resolve these problems. We need to fix everything that's wrong and then we can enjoy the couple instead of we need to actively be participating in enjoyment so that we can solve our problems.

Madeline Bush: 

Madeline Bush: Yes. Absolutely.

Madeline Bush: I mean what comes to mind is I think it's 5 to one the Gottman ratio that they found right that for one moment of conflict or tension with a couple we need to have five positive moments but we get stubborn and no I had conflict with you I don't want to do anything fun no I don't want you go take yourself for a walk right but we forget that that's the opportunity to rebalance things and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeline Bush: feel connected to this person and this life that you can at least have influence over you certainly can't control. And you can influence it by saying, "Let's pause the fight. Let's go for a walk. Let's try to hold hands even though we're still mad at each other." And then maybe we'll start laughing as we're holding hands because we can see that the anger we were expressing in there somehow it's diffusing out here.

Jeremy Schumacher: And it is some of that skill building, right?

Jeremy Schumacher: That's being able to self soo and other things.

Madeline Bush: Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: The first thing I teach couples is how to use timeouts so that we're not escalating things. but it's one of those things where it's like the 5 to1 ratio is really hard. I don't introduce that early because I find couples get discouraged with it.

Madeline Bush: Yes. Five times.  What do you mean?

Jeremy Schumacher: But I talk about stacking wins and sort of the way that we can build success is not let's jump back into the argument or let's resolve this issue we've had our entire relationship. let's have dinner together, let's cook together, let's take our creatures for an exercise, whether it's dogs or children or ourselves, like whatever that might look like. Let's do this. Let's watch our show. Let's order pizza.

Jeremy Schumacher: whatever it is, that's easy wins.

Jeremy Schumacher: And then let's stack that and then let's move into problem solving once we've resourced ourselves to do that. And again, that's probably the thing couples fight me on the most, especially early on the process, is like, no, we haven't fixed anything. I'm still mad at them. I'm not going to spend time with them. and I'm not sidesteping our problems, but I'm not ignoring it,…

Madeline Bush: Yes. Yes.

Madeline Bush: Yes. Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: but you need to have fun. Go do something together. And I think that's the thing that people fight me on the most…

Jeremy Schumacher: because once they buy in and they see the benefit, everything else gets easier. And it's so unscientific for me to summarize it that way, but that's how I talk about with clients. I can't explain to you how well this works. I just need you to do it because it works really well.

00:40:00

Madeline Bush: Yes. Yes.

Madeline Bush: You got to feel it. I can't talk you out of it. You got to feel it.

Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Right.

Madeline Bush: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And just that I like even at couples therapy coming to session together setting aside time for your relationship has already made a difference.

Madeline Bush: Yes. Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: There's all these techniques and these schools of thoughts I can draw from but ultimately the thing that you will take out into your life when therapy is done is the ability to connect with each other in a moment. And that's what we need to practice. That's what we need to get good at.

Madeline Bush: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. that the piece about a couple's client might fight you on it and not want to go do Something that I try to really and this is where some couples start to fight me on it too, but I still push through and try to see if we can even try it is using play during conflict. Not that you're trying to all of a sudden be in a happy joking mood, but Can we have signals that will start to deescalate just because we're going the total opposite side of the emotional spectrum from anger and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Madeline Bush: frustration, sadness, hurt, heavy challenging emotions over to play and laughter and comedy and absurdity. That's something I try to push in. So, examples, I had one couple who they decided they wanted to have a code word where either one of them could say it when they were sensing that our conflict is really getting escalated now. we're both getting really activated. So, their code word was So, one of them would scream out devild eggs and then the other one would be like,…

Madeline Bush: "Okay, I'm going to go take a timeout. I see it, too." we're both not being our best selves.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeline Bush: And even something as simple as that, trying to use a nickname in the middle of a conflict. Very hard to do because some people view that as, " I'm giving up the fight. If I'm going to use your nickname, which we both know will soften you, that's me putting down my sword, and I don't want to do that because then you win. And won't we both win if we can try to deescalate this a little bit? If we can reconnect to fun and play and who we are, how we connect outside of this moment of conflict,

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. And I reframe so much of what we've been taught by society,…

Jeremy Schumacher: the only way to win an argument is to get out of it. to not participate in it.

Madeline Bush: Yes. Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: And because I'm a competitive person, I get digging in your heels with someone like I understand that.

Jeremy Schumacher: And so just reframing is like whoever calls out the argument and gets us out of it first is the winner. that's…

Jeremy Schumacher: what success is, that's the win. And I think helping people do some of that. And there's lots of techniques. You said people only be able to argue in a certain room in their house and just the absurdity of hang on, our therapist told us we have to fight in the kitchen and we gotta go Trump over to it's so dumb and then you get out of it very quickly.

Madeline Bush: Yes, absolutely.

Jeremy Schumacher: Or I use the analogy of my dogs. I love my dogs and they dig in the garden and I get mad at them and I still love them. Why can we hold complexity for our creatures…

Madeline Bush: Yeah. Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: but not for our partners? it's a ridiculous standard we hold each other to. so just whatever we can use to really soften in that moment so that connection is available again.

Madeline Bush: Yes. Yes. And then ultimately we remember that we are safe with this person,…

Madeline Bush: Ideally that we are safe with our partner.

Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yeah.

Madeline Bush: Even though the conflict was big and loud, we're reconnecting back to the lighter feelings that ceue in, right, they're not so bad. I could work through this with them. I could move my direction that I have more capacity to work through this with them, which we lose when we're in conflict. and that's normal. I also try to tell my folks there's nothing pathological about that. You're just a human being who's trying to protect your own. We're just trying to have the two of you not for forget to protect the relationship as well.

Jeremy Schumacher: It's really a third entity. You have each individual and then you have the couple. And that's…

Madeline Bush: Yes. Yes.  Right. Which is fun.

Jeremy Schumacher: what I focus on as the marriage therapist. yeah, it is for sure. all right, we talked about your self-care.

Jeremy Schumacher: What's a current thing you recommend for people or that has really been providing you some joy in these trying times we're living through? I've been trying to find what's given people some joy.

Jeremy Schumacher: What's something that's been lighting up your days or weeks? Yeah.

Madeline Bush: That's a great question.

Madeline Bush: I'm trying to lean in with time outside because for us here in Milwaukee, it's like, wow. We can be outside again. it's not 20°." So, I'm really trying to notice on my daily walks with my dog. I'm trying to notice what has changed daytoday outside. I'm trying to notice those daffodils that were hanging a little bit with just a bud are now at a 90 degree and they're opening a little more. I'm trying to notice that those squirrels seem to have moved in to that tree again across the street and Henry's going to go crazy when he sees them. He's going to just chase them up the tree.

00:45:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeline Bush: For us here in Milwaukee, we have the gorgeous lake. I try to notice the color of the lake every day and how much waves are there or not. So mindfulness is effectively what I'm talking about. But again, that curious, playful experience of spring, which is look at how much it's changing so quickly. It's all coming back online. I'm looking out my window right now and I'm noticing for the first time that a tree across the street actually has leaves. I didn't notice that yesterday. And I feel a little bit in awe of how did I not notice those leaves? But these moments of connection and…

Madeline Bush: wonder, awe of what's happening around us that so often we're looking down and We're missing that opportunity.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah,…

Jeremy Schumacher: for I am a big nature person as well and have two elderly dogs. So, our time outside is very wonderful and…

Jeremy Schumacher: intentional. also, I'm just going to do a quick plug for the Milwaukee Filmfest. by the time this episode goes out will probably be one more day of the film fest and then it'll be ending. but that has been my joy recently. Christopher Pard has been on the podcast before talking about Milwaukee film.

Madeline Bush: Yes. Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: It is a lovely institution. As a Milwaukee native, I like to highlight some cool stuff. It's really a worldclass film festival we have here. So if you're interested,…

Jeremy Schumacher: go to one of our historic theaters and catch a film and enjoy that.

Jeremy Schumacher: Maline, this has been great.

Madeline Bush: Yeah, it was super fun.

Madeline Bush: Thanks for having me.

Jeremy Schumacher: If people want to learn more about your practice or they want to work with you, where do they go? How do they find you?

Madeline Bush: So, you could find me the easy route, Psychology Today. Just look me up by name or you could check out my website, which is malinebushcounseling.com. Correct. Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: And we will have those links in the show notes so that's easy for folks to find and licensed here in Wisconsin and also Very cool. Maline, thanks so much for taking the time to join me today.

Madeline Bush: Yeah. Be everybody.

Jeremy Schumacher: And to all our wonderful listeners, thanks for tuning in again this week. We'll be back next week with another new episode. Take care, everyone.

Meeting ended after 00:47:54 👋

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