Your Therapist Needs Therapy 112 - Escaping Evangelical Cult Leaders with Margaret Bronson

This week Jeremy talks with Margaret Bronson, founder of Deconstruction Doulas, about her journey out of Doug Wilson’s high-control religious group and how she now supports survivors of similar environments. Margaret shares how online communities, secure attachment, and body awareness helped her leave and heal, while highlighting the systemic abuse, lack of accountability, and patriarchal control within these groups. Together, they discuss the importance of safe, supportive communities and the urgent need for financial and emotional resources for people escaping religious trauma.

As always, Jeremy has all his practice info at Wellness with Jer, and you can find him on Instagram and YouTube. To show your love for the show you can pick up some merch! We appreciate support from likes, follows, and shares as well! None of my online work would be possible without my media maven Kenny, so check out their work as well at kenlingdesign.com

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Podcasts about therapy do not replace actual therapy, and listening to a podcast about therapy does not signify a therapeutic relationship.

If you or someone you know is in crisis please call or text the nationwide crisis line at 988, or text HELLO to 741741. The Trevor Project has a crisis line for LGBTQ+ young people that can be reached by texting 678678.

Transcript

Your Therapist Needs Therapy - Margaret Bronson - 2025/08/20 10:58 CDT - Transcript

Attendees

David Bronson, Jeremy Schumacher

Transcript

Jeremy Schumacher: Hello and…

David Bronson: Hello. Thank you so much for having me.

Jeremy Schumacher: welcome to another edition of your host Jeremy Schumacher, licensed marriage and family therapist. Today I am joined by a very special guest who's doing a lot of cool community work that I wanted to spotlight and talk about in the deconstruction space. Today I'm joined by Margaret Bronson who started and runs Deconstruction Duelas. Margaret, thanks for joining me today. Let's jump in and start with how is it that you came to be doing this work.

David Bronson: So, I grew up in a really insular religious group, a cult, and that pretty much shaped my life.

Jeremy Schumacher: That's Yeah.

David Bronson: So, then I got out of it and I wanted to help other people get out of it.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. insular religious group is the very polite way of saying a cult.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. do you mind talking a little bit about I'm sure your story is out there and you've talked about it hundreds of times at this point, but do you mind sharing a little bit about just sort of what started that deconstruction and sort of what your exit was like?

David Bronson: Yeah. …

David Bronson: the particular group that I was a part of followed Doug Wilson, who's kind of all over the news right now. and so some cults have rules. Everything had a rule in this group. what you wear, how you talk, what you can read, what you can watch, who you can be friends with, what you can dream about, how you spend your time, Who you marry, everything was dictated by the cult. And in this cult, I mean, it was bad, I didn't know people outside of it. I didn't watch things outside of it.

David Bronson: there weren't really books from outside of it. So, it was very insular. and the other thing is like you have to perform to cult standards or you receive discipline. And so, it creates this you're not really thinking. You're just trying to survive.  you're just trying to figure out what the rules are I need to follow so that I can not be miserable all the time. so I was, the good girl. I was doing all the things I was supposed to be doing. I was regurgitating the information. I was even performing to cult standards both like, he slash they believe that girls exist only to keep house and raise children.

David Bronson: And so I proved myself in those areas. I was really good at cooking and all the things. but as I was getting older the conver as soon as I turned 14 the conversation started being honestly you should start if laws were the way they were supposed to be you'd be married now. it's actually bad that you're not married yet. That's how God wants it is for because you're wasting all these fertile years and there's all these men who need to get married and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

David Bronson: have babies and all this stuff and talking about changing the laws to reduce the age of consent and all of these really scary things that I didn't have any source of information that told me that they were wrong except my body and I didn't have words for it.

David Bronson: I just felt awful in my body when I would hear these conversations. And then boys started have giving me attention and I knew what it meant because I was hearing sermons about how there's no such thing as marital rape, how your body belongs to your husband, how you have to give it to him whenever you want, how you can't use birth control. So, everyone that I saw get married had a baby nine months later. and not only that, in Doug Wilson's world,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Are you

David Bronson: fathers pick who you marry. And so I'm looking around at all the boys who are cozying up to my dad and freaking out. So I feel like my body told me to get out before I knew what I was getting out from.

David Bronson: And another piece of it is like I would hear people say things and I'd feel like, whoa, that sounds awful. My body would react to it. I'd look around me and everyone else would be nodding and solemn approval. And the thing that I keep telling people is like you have to understand the leap as a child to look around at everyone and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Amazing.  Yeah.

David Bronson: be like, I'm right and they're wrong. That's a crazy leap. but the way that I got out was twofold. First, I weasled my way onto the internet without my parents knowing and joined a Lord of the Rings fan forum where we basically played Dn D and wrote fan. And so I met different kinds of people there, one of them being my now husband who helped me get out.

00:05:00

David Bronson: but then when I was 16, there was a pedophile at our church and they wanted to have him confess in front of the congregation and then tell everyone since he's confessed, God has forgiven him. That means we need to ve Forgiving means forgetting. So, you basically have to pretend you never heard this, still let him have access to your children.  if you don't, you're hateful and a bigot and unforgiving and putting yourself over God's authority and all this really insane religious crap. and my parents did call the police and so we got excommunicated. So, while my parents we physically left that church building at that time, my parents kind of froze because they didn't know what to do with So, all of the cult indoctrination continued even though we weren't going to that church anymore.

David Bronson: And so that's when with my now husband, we started wargaming…

David Bronson: how I was going to get out of the situation and not end up married to someone because also divorce isn't allowed. so you get married and you have a hundred children right away and you're trapped forever and I knew that and I didn't want that.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. I was trying to do a quick Google search cuz you're right, Doug Wilson is in the news lately.  I just keep seeing clips of this interview and I can't track down where the interview was, but he's a small bearded man who is on one of these interview shows basically telling the interviewer she shouldn't have a job and she should be having children instead. and I think it sounds crazy to people who didn't grow up around it. Doug Wilson is in Moscow, Idaho, is where his church is. They've taken over their local town.

Jeremy Schumacher: There's a bunch of Nazis around, which is a thing I'm interested in. If you want more of that, you can listen to my episode with Spencer Sunshine from a few episodes, and we talk about Nazis. and cozied up to the new apostolic reform, which is what Mike Johnson is a part of. Fance, Belter, the Minnesota political assassin,…

Jeremy Schumacher: is part of that movement. So, he's in the news even if people don't know who he is. And it's one of these not tinfoil hat sort of conspiracies to say,…

David Bronson: and Yep.

Jeremy Schumacher: "Hey, if you're looking for a small shadowy group of people who are pulling the levers of power, it's the new apostolic reform, it's people like Doug Wilson and what's going on up in Idaho.

David Bronson: And the secretary of defense Pete Hgsith is part of Doug Wilson's church.

David Bronson: And so I mean it goes all the way up to the top.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I think that's maybe…

Jeremy Schumacher: where that interview has been popping up. Hegsith retweeted it or whatever who is…

David Bronson: Yeah. Also drinks on the job,…

Jeremy Schumacher: what on a third marriage like men don't have to follow the rule.

David Bronson: but it's fine.

Jeremy Schumacher: That's one of these things with patriarchal societies. So, you're raised female and socialized female and you're very concerned about all these rules and knowing what is going to happen if you try and break them. And the men in power sort of get to break them at will…

Jeremy Schumacher: because if you confess or if you have a meeting with your pastor or whatever it is, all is forgiven and we move on and there's no actual accountability anywhere.

David Bronson: Yeah. I mean,…

David Bronson: what it really becomes in the end is a per a predator support group,…

David Bronson: we're just going to basically keep a bunch of sheep ready for you to abuse and then protect you when you abuse them.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And for anybody who's studied abuse dynamics and predators, coercive control, people predators find their way to these things whether it's willful, intentional or not.  So many abusers, pedophiles, other people who wanted to find their way to their victims were Boy Scout leaders for a long time. Why? Because there was no accountability. And so these structures that lack accountability it's moth to a flame with some of this stuff because it's like a radar.

Jeremy Schumacher: It's whether it's conscious or not, it's there and it's attractive to them. And I think for people who want power and to be in power, it's also attractive. Even if it's not, a pedophile or…

Jeremy Schumacher: sexual abuse, if it's wanting to lord over someone, if it's wanting to have a cadre of tiny little humans to do all your household chores for you, it's very appealing. and you find your way to these things,…

David Bronson: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: whether you are writing it out on a whiteboard, evil genius, or just that sort of vibes with what I've got going on internally in my brain. and so people find their way to these things. I like that sort of it is a protection racket for abusers.

00:10:00

David Bronson: And I think, cults can't get you if you have secure attachment. They prey on people who don't have secure attachment.

David Bronson: whether they've been disconnected from their culture, their community, their identity, their family of origin, there's some sort of feeling of loss relationally, attachment wise. And so the cult, especially for the men, it's like that father wound. You get this male approval. you get in to this group where it's great to be a man. We're going to tell you how to be a man and we're going to give you a sense of belonging and you're good and you're right and you're safe and we have your back.

David Bronson: And so I think a lot of men join because they have this hole for a strong male figure to fill and the cults right they're ready to do that and then it comes with now you are in charge and it's your job to lead your family and it starts with you want to lead them to be godly right and so it's like we're going to have this beautiful nuclear family but then you're in deep and you're going to lose the approval the affection the attention of the men who are filling that hole if you don't start abusing your family because you have to get them to follow these really restrictive cult dynamics.

David Bronson: They can't, which means you're going to have to punish them. And in Doug Wilson's cult, wives get spanked.

David Bronson: if they don't live up to the whatever, if they talk back to their husbands, which in and of itself is a ridiculous thing to say, if they do it in front of the kids, the elders will prescribe that the husband literally spank the wife in front of the children to show that even she is not above God/h his authority. and so it's like a really well-laid trap.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And I mean, if you want to look at American leadership, grown men with daddy issues is the easy way to summarize it. but you're right, this attachment wound and again, predators have sort of this sixth sense for people who are vulnerable. human beings are social creatures and social creatures…

Jeremy Schumacher: who don't have a community base is where it's easy to find those people. And so church membership we know goes up after natural crisis. We know I don't know that that's true anymore, but that used to be a very strong trend.

David Bronson: Okay. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And some of this stuff is because vulnerable people is who the church is trying to attract. they're leading with community and then stifling any growth beyond that. It's all group outgroup dynamics. Yep.

David Bronson: and creating further attachment wounds by the first thing the cult does is going to separate you from anyone that you did have in your life. It's going to further isolate you and then creates father wounds by creating this combiveness between parent and child. So these little boys, they grow up, they're in Doug Wilson's cult, you have corporal punishment beginning as young as six months old. The boys get it worse than the girls.

David Bronson: I grew up listening to hour and a half sermons while boys were crying in the parking lot. 13, 14y old boys who are getting disciplined for not paying enough attention during an hour and a half lots of physical abuse. And so the father wounds are being created that…

David Bronson: then the cult will then fill and turn them into perpetrators to create further father wounds. And it just goes on and on and on.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And keeping people under resourced so they stay vulnerable and making it difficult to leave so they have to stay. And so when you load up somebody with trauma, then suddenly they're partnered off and then now they're raising a bunch of kids. all those resources are saps and nobody has any basis for what actual good leadership looks like. We're just propagating this blueprint of abuse which keeps everybody vulnerable and underresourced. And when you zoom out it's evil…

Jeremy Schumacher: but a very effective system.

David Bronson: And then we say empathy is a sin.

Jeremy Schumacher: And that group outgroup dynamic, right? the people who have fallen away, the people who I mean, you can speak to this if your family was excommunicated, like those shunning practices cut you off of community. Not as a punishment for the people who left, but to keep everybody who's still in they want that insular group of it is a bad thing to leave. it should be fearful to speak out.

David Bronson: Yeah, I mean I've been part of shunning three times now and it's complete and you don't get any control over the narrative of what the inroup…

David Bronson: what they hear about you, the narrative that's spun about you.

00:15:00

David Bronson: And they can just basically, that's part of why I started speaking up online was because I was like, I know whatever they're saying about me in there isn't true, and I want people to know the truth,

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: What was I've had Chris Shelton on who was pretty high up in Scientology before and he spoke about how they limited the internet access but you hinted at that a little bit of sneaking on the internet sort of what was that process initially to learn some things…

Jeremy Schumacher: but then trying to connect with other ex members once you left.

David Bronson: Yeah. …

David Bronson: I got onto the internet in 2001. So, it was like dialup family computer. So, I was like doing my homework,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

David Bronson: but I was actually just talking to a bunch of people online from all over the world. postreligious Europe was fascinating to me at that point.

David Bronson: I was like, "Wait, you don't have religions?" Wait, what? but then there was one girl who was at Gothard's one of his hugs and she escapes out a window we're watching this happen in real time over the forum and she gets away. it opened up my world because when we went so I wasn't born into the cult. It was a slow slide. We officially joined an actual church when I was 11, but we were already doing a lot of the things by the time I was 8 n years old. because they were reading the books and listening to the radio shows and all the things.

David Bronson: And…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Mhm. Yep.

David Bronson: before the cult we were going to the library all the time, but apparently John Dwey was this big bad person and the Dewey decimal system was demonic. And so we weren't supposed to go to the library anymore. So they greatly restricted what I was to read. We were very restricted in what movies we were allowed to watch. and I was homeschooled and we started isolating ourselves more from my extended family and even when you are with people who aren't part of the cult, you're doing it combatively,…

David Bronson: You're trying to get them to join the cult. You're trying to get them to see that you're different and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Right.

David Bronson: better and all these things.

David Bronson: And so the wall between me and the rest of the world, me and anything cuz my gosh, this Hollywood idea of cults being like a walled village and everybody's in it and you have to physically escape across the wall somehow is so uneducated about…

David Bronson: how cults actually work by and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yes.

David Bronson: large. and I think it's a real problem. And I think we really need to educate on how cults actually work because I think in a lot of ways there are even MAGA operates as a cult and stuff. And if you still think that there has to be a physical wall in order for it to be a cult, you're going to get taken over by cults.

Jeremy Schumacher: And those exist, right? I've worked with exchildren of God members who grew up on a compound. I've worked with I don't want to dismiss I think from a scaling perspective. That's awful. that's the worst. And I think that's why for so long those were all the documentaries. Those were all the things that people talked about. I do sort of hold some optimism that Shiny Happy People and Keep Sweet Pray and Obey and all the other documentaries.  I mean, somebody I get a couple texts a week from people being like, "Hey, did you see this religious trauma documentary?" so I think that idea is starting to shift, but it's certainly, you're right, that Hollywood perspective, it's based on some reality, but even if you look at, the Manson family and some of those real cults, but very fanciful, they didn't have a compound.

Jeremy Schumacher: Again, it's Kesh and some of those folks who Waco we think of and…

Jeremy Schumacher: is sort of burned into the cultural zeitgeist, but you brought up Bill Gothard earlier. I grew up more on the focus on the family side of things with James Dobson. these were all coercive control groups that use cult tactics.

David Bronson: Yeah. Absolutely.

Jeremy Schumacher: And we see it with MEGA too at a wide scale. For as much as the internet has helped people leave cults, the internet has also become a big recruiting tool for cults.

David Bronson: Yeah. My parents got into it because of internet. I got out of it because of the internet.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Margaret and I talked in this podcast so y'all can't see me. but I'm bummed because we had some flooding recently so I'm in my basement but not where I normally record. Typically I have a theater sized Lord of the Rings poster behind me. so I love that Lord of the Rings was sort of this safe haven. And I've talked a lot about how Lord of the Rings shows pretty healthy masculinity. It's one of the few major popular pop culture things where men are tender and they kiss each other on the forehead and they embrace and they're not just looking at women as objects and it's really lovely.

00:20:00

Jeremy Schumacher: There aren't that many female lead characters, but the men are not toxic in Lord of the Rings.

David Bronson: We're watching through the series with my little boys right now for the first time and…

David Bronson: we just watched Boramir's death and that whole scene with Aragorn and Boramir after it. Every time it's so healing to watch just tender platonic affection between men, respectful noble. It's so beautiful. doesn't have to be like this.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

David Bronson: Strong masculinity doesn't have to be toxic.

Jeremy Schumacher: And nobody's questioning Aragorn's masculinity. He's the pinnacle of what people want. so yeah. No, I love that. what was the space on the internet you talk about having some of this community and you talk about early forums for younger people. the early internet was a wild place. but what's sort of your experience been then building deconstruction doulas and trying to have a space? Because for a lot of folks, I'm sure people you're working with, your personal experience, a lot of the people I work with,…

Jeremy Schumacher: the thing they're looking for immediately when they change their belief system or they're escaping a cult is they're looking for community.

David Bronson: So when I started speaking out online about the pain that I was in and…

David Bronson: I was kind of deconstructing out loud, I was hoping that people who had shunned me but still followed me on social media. I was hoping that they would hear and they would respond and they would change and we could reconnect.

David Bronson: largely that hasn't happened but what did happen was a lot of strangers started coming and it started resonating and there's a beautiful thing that happens when someone gets it when someone knows and you almost don't have to like a large part of what someone who's coming out of a cult has to do is educate all the time I'm  this way because I actually didn't make That choice isn't actually a reflection of me, but this is what my life is like. And all of this constant, educating so you're not misunderstood thing. And there's just a really beautiful thing that happens when you don't have to educate because other people get it.

David Bronson: And the beautiful thing is the community that I've built has been so hurt by coercion and manipulation and mind control and having to be one particular thing the thing I'm most proud of this community for is the openness, the ability to be atheist, agnostic, Buddhist, Catholic, Protestant, deconstructed and not in the church but still loves Jesus.

David Bronson: us in the church, whatever. but we all have very similar boundaries with how far we'll take any of that. we love people regardless of what they believe. there's real secure attachment. because I think we found secure attachment for the first time and are kind of allergic having to form, to having to mask, having to lie and say, " yeah, I believe that." when I don't believe that or having to fit into a box or mold and we don't put that on each other. And so a really beautiful community has come out of this that has been everything I think I need it to heal and…

David Bronson: I think a lot of people need it to heal

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. …

Jeremy Schumacher: And the internet is this double-edged sword for but it is one of the things that I talk a lot about with people who are new to deconstructing is find your cohort.  I kind of refer to it because there are podcasts that come and go who just focus on deconstruction and often it's like the host is recently deconstructed and it's really important and then they build this community and then three or four years go by and deconstruction isn't the most important thing in their world anymore and the podcast sort of waines.

Jeremy Schumacher: as somebody who's been out of religion long enough to watch this happen a couple of times I think there's utility in that but there are these larger groups these are some long-standing groups lots and lots of subreddits for ex Mormon XJWs exeangelicals like all of these different groups that I think can be a little siloed and I really try and recommend that people connect in a couple of places because again the internet is not wonderful full by any stretch of the imagination,…

00:25:00

Jeremy Schumacher: but it's so accessible to so many different people from walks of life. And like you were saying, finding someone who gets it,…

David Bronson: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: even if they're ex Mormon, even if they grew up in a different cult than you did, so much of the coercive control and the mind control tactics that people are using are each cult is not coming up with their own. They're using the same ones.

David Bronson: Yeah. I watched the Mormon documentaries and…

David Bronson: I'm like, "Okay, the aesthetics are different." we don't have the underwear thing, you know what I mean? But it's the same. Keep Sweet and Prey. Like that was my life,

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And it every fundamentalist group sort of points to some other fundamentalist group and they're the crazy ones. We're not that bad. Because that was a big thing. I grew up fundamentalist evangelical and that was the big thing that we had was like we don't all dress the same way and…

David Bronson: Mhm.

Jeremy Schumacher: that was a big gotcha that they trotted out all the time of we're not crazy look at the people down the road who all have to wear the same outfits that's when it's bad and they just reflect on it and you're right aesthetics change I think personality cult of personality the leader changes from place But, it's a lot of the same stuff. And it comes back to a control for the leadership and…

Jeremy Schumacher: a hierarchical control structure and then that group outgroup dynamic.

David Bronson: Yeah. Yeah.

David Bronson: And you can't differentiate at all. You have to stay in the box or…

David Bronson: you're out. It's very all or nothing. …

Jeremy Schumacher: So you talk about not necessarily finding a ton of people that you grew up with or…

Jeremy Schumacher: a lot of people who still followed you on social media, but where did sort of deconstruction duelas grow out of and how did that sort of percolate in your brain before becoming a thing?

David Bronson: so I think a lot of people found me through there was a few leaders of the movement whose daughters were themselves deconstructing and they shared my stuff a few times and so I got a big collection of exhome we're homeschooled maybe grew up under Dobson or…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

David Bronson: Bill Goth

David Bronson: authorred or Doug Wilson is pretty much like the primary three that kind of found me and now the algorithm is kind of taking it past that cuz I was a pastor's wife in the SBC for 12 years and the first few years of that super healing like women are people so that itself was healing but then Doug Wilson showed  up in the SBC and everyone's like, " my gosh, this guy's amazing." And family worship started being the thing and disciplines, it was not just spanking is a thing on a tool in the tool belt. It was like, you have to do it every time and you have to do it exactly like this culty stuff.

David Bronson: so part of my story is seeing how evangelicalism allowed Doug Wilson to basically cut through them like butter and just come through with almost no resistance. I know many people who lost their jobs or their place in their church speaking out against it in evangelicalism and maybe they don't follow all the rules and look exactly like and live as extremely as someone who is in maybe a CRC Doug Wilson church but they kicked people out of their church for saying things against Doug Wilson and in reality they agree with all of the tenants of what he's saying. They're just not as consistent.

David Bronson: they're just not as serious about it. And I think part of why I think actually they feel some degree of being lesser Christians…

David Bronson: because they don't take it as seriously and they really respect how seriously Doug Wilson takes it and how far he's willing to go for it.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And so much of it ends justify the means. with evangelicalism specifically I think because it's always an eternal soul at risk. that's where the political right got taken over by or…

Jeremy Schumacher: vice versa where the religious right and the biblical right really went from we're anti-abortion to Trumpism is the loyalty test now …

David Bronson: Okay. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: because it's an ends justify the mean sort of mentality and it's where these cult personalities can come in and somebody who is got a big following can take over very quickly. ally because there isn't a better structure anywhere else. The Lutheran church isn't any better. because there's no accountability in these groups across the board. It's not something that is based on mutual respect and accountability. It's all hierarchical.

00:30:00

David Bronson: Yeah. Exactly.

David Bronson: I mean, it's been 10 years since the beginning of Me Too, and the SBC in particular has been confronted with their sexual abuse coverups for 10 years, and nothing has changed.

Jeremy Schumacher: And the Catholic Church is still spending millions of dollars every year to not pay victims. it's,…

David Bronson: Yeah. Mhm.

Jeremy Schumacher: and that was, over 20 years ago now. Wow, I'm getting old. but also this idea that I think people think that there's a different group. And I try and be cautious around this because I'm not anti- relligion. I'm just skeptical that any organized religion has good accountability. And if a group doesn't have accountability, that doesn't mean abuse is happening right now. It just means abuse could happen. And just like you're saying, somebody coming in, whether it's a Doug Wilson figure or it's whoever is going to be the next sort of influential James Dobson, Bill Gothard,…

Jeremy Schumacher: people who are writing a lot of books, have their own publishing house. Gothard has written most of the homeschool Christian curriculum used across all denominations. he's friends with eugenicists back in the day,…

David Bronson: Mhm. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: there's lots of issues, but if you're not somebody who's getting any of that information, you're not aware of any of that stuff. You just see what a good person who's doing the Lord's work.

David Bronson: And if you're not listening to survivors and you're only listening to what they say and how they say this affects and how they say this creates a happy family, right? you're not getting the whole story.

Jeremy Schumacher: And it's so weird. I don't know if you can relate to this. It's such a weird dichotomy. I think I talk about I was deconstructing for 20 years. I kept fighting myself to stay. So, when I finally left, it was a breath of fresh air and it's hard now almost to remember what it was like because I look at something like Gothard's writing or I look at James Thompson, it's like you should beat your children like you beat your animals and I don't know a young person who thinks that beating their animal is okay. the culture has shifted so much around something like animal rights and about stuff like that.

Jeremy Schumacher: So I think it's hasn't run its course certainly,…

Jeremy Schumacher: but it's not just the sex scandals that are making people leave. It is stuff like this where in the 80s that might have been a really good selling point,…

David Bronson: Okay. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: but now people love their animals more than they love other people and no, they're not going to hit their animals. So that doesn't make any sense.

David Bronson: And I mean I think that's…

David Bronson: why it's really interesting again I mean I was getting Heritage Foundation mail since I was a kid. they have been going against PETA and talking about how it's so ridiculous to put animals above humans and creating this false dichotomy where we're saving the random little toad instead of worrying about how people are going to get food because we could put a shopping center in there and then we could fix this food desert and creating this weird false dichotomy.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

David Bronson: And you see them doing it all these different progressive human progress that we're making for the flourishing of all humans and…

David Bronson: all of life that's happening and simultaneously they're trying to dismantle that is an idea and just slowly tear it apart. they talk about how the failure of the public school system and it's never been fully funded. We've never given it a What do you mean the failure of the public school system? you made the world you wanted.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah. and we're seeing this Trump is doing these things to such a exaggerated perspective it's full mask off, but we see it with the job numbers right now. we see it with what was the mail in voting that is under attack right now, which is just full-on fascism, saying something that is easily disproven and never backing down on it. the church did this for so many years under the guise of morality, but they never had information. They never had statistics or data to back it up. And that was a big thing for me when I went to public school finally. I K through 12 was private religious school.

Jeremy Schumacher: And when I finally went to University of Minnesota, learning about statistics and Minnesota's a big research institution. I was a psych student. I had to take research and methods every single semester.

00:35:00

Jeremy Schumacher: And it was just one of those eye opening things where this stuff's never been based on anything. And it still took me a decade to get to the point where the Bible is also not based on anything and comfortable saying I'm an atheist, but it's al like the church has been doing what Reagan did with the moral majority. no statistics to back it up. Just it's a catchy slogan.

David Bronson: Yeah. yeah,…

Jeremy Schumacher: And so I think Trump is mask off but that's what the religious right has been doing since the 50 since Jerry Fwell senior we can sort of directly tie it back all the way to the 50s.

David Bronson: for sure.

David Bronson: And you bring up Reagan, …

David Bronson: with the survivors that I work with, most of their stories is that their parents joined the cult because of the war on drugs because they were terrified that drugs were everywhere and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

David Bronson: AIDS and all this stuff that Reagan was pushing. that drove tons of people who wanted to do the right thing and keep their kids safe from their perceived threat and then they were taken advantage of and…

David Bronson: themselves They are also perpetrators now. But we have if we don't recognize their victimhood we just dehumanize them as well. And that's what that's really…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

David Bronson: what needs to happen is we just need to stop dehumanizing everybody.

David Bronson: That's really all it is.

Jeremy Schumacher: And I think I'll add the quick caveat because I see people who are not safe that this is a stance you can get to and start to look at and play around with how to enact it in your life when you're safe.

David Bronson: Yes. …

Jeremy Schumacher: That's not often where we're at right when we leave where we can hold that complicated space that many perpetrators are also victims because if you're not safe, if let's say your parents are still member of a cult or a high control religion, that's not the time to hold space and grace for them. Yep.

David Bronson: and recognizing that they're victims doesn't mean you have to do anything about it. You don't have to be in relationship with them. You don't have to help them.

David Bronson: I think it's so complicated and every survivor is going to have to find where they're at and it's probably going to fluctuate throughout their life. But I do think understanding the actual pull people who are pulling the levers and who are actually causing the manipulation is really important because actually you can stop wasting your energy on the people who are having their levers pulled and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

David Bronson: just focus on the people who are actually pulling those levers.

Jeremy Schumacher: And again, because politics,…

Jeremy Schumacher: I think, are so tied, I talk about this a lot with Republicans of I'm not interested in debating a hardcore Republican. I'm not interested in debating somebody who voted for Donald Trump three times. I will talk to somebody who's questioning something that they've been misinformed their whole lives…

David Bronson: Mhm. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: because they watch Fox News or they grew up listening to Rush Limbbo or whomever. people who are open to engaging is one thing, but we don't have to be evangelicals for atheism. We don't need to go out and try and deconvert people. That is generally harmful for us, but even if it's not harmful, it's just a waste of energy.

David Bronson: Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Jeremy Schumacher: And there's plenty of people who are leaving and are questioning and are looking for safe places to land. And I think that speaks to your work, but it's definitely a better use of our time and energy to connect and find those people.

David Bronson: I agree. Yeah.

David Bronson: people who are asking questions because I mean the fact that they're asking questions and if they're asking outside of the group that is a really big rift that is a big door open through the cult programming. and I mean I think my thing is I often see that door being open and that questioning being opened met with shame and…

David Bronson: anger that then pushes them further into the cult and makes sure that they're not going to ask again. They're not going to come outside again because what you just did is reinforce the cult's message that everyone on the outside is against Everyone on the outside is a monster. You won't be safe out there. There will be no place for you out there. You need us. If we can show them you don't need them, we got you. it might take time for you to be a safe person and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

David Bronson: be allowed into our spaces fully, but there is a path in,

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: This is a structured practice for a lot of high control groups. this is why they have door-to-door missionaries because when you get a door slammed in your face or you get, made fun of or ignored or argued with, then you go back to your cults and you are welcome and you feel safe. And again, that's not a whoopsy daisy.

00:40:00

Jeremy Schumacher: That's the entire purpose of some of this stuff. So again, I think not trying to evangelicalize people out of cults, but trying to just create safe space for those who are ready to leave.

David Bronson: Yeah. Yeah.

David Bronson: And also a lot of them, they've never So, I'm thinking about people growing up in the kinds of cults that I like the level of cult that I grew up in,…

David Bronson: They've never received affection,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

David Bronson: approval, attention for doing anything other than performing to the cult standard. And so they've had to suppress their pain. They've been told emotions are bad. Having limitations and boundaries is bad. you're just lazy. You just don't want to do it. You're just not faithful enough. the biggest thing you can do to crack them open is validate their pain.

David Bronson: Validate their suffering, what they're feeling in their body.

David Bronson: they've been feeling. Your body doesn't lie.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yes. Hey Yeah.

David Bronson: Your body doesn't lie. You validate what they feel in their body and It is deprogramming magic. you're tired because you have 12 kids. Of course, you're tired. You're not lazy. You're not faithful enough. No, you don't need to pray more. You need someone to help you with your 12 kids. just speak sense to them about their lived experience. Forget the dogma for a minute. help them get into their bodies because their bodies don't lie and their bodies are with them They go into that cult with them when you're not there. And if you can just make their body louder and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yep. Yeah.

David Bronson: help them listen to their body, it is the most powerful culty programming method that I've found. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And a lot of that, I talked about this last week with Veronica Dress, the sex educator I had on, but talking about permission to listen to your body because again, so much cult programming is your body is sinful and…

Jeremy Schumacher: therefore not trustworthy and you shouldn't listen to it. And then there are all these practices. I'm not going to list them all out, but lots of practices to get people out of touch with their body.

David Bronson: And then we demonize things like yoga and…

David Bronson: dancing and anything that would bring you into your body.

Jeremy Schumacher: Sex is every cult has so many rules.

David Bronson: Sex has to be traumatic. So it takes you out of your body. Definitely can't ground you.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yep. Yeah. Yeah. And when I say this a lot I think for early deconstruction people it feels profound. but when your business is selling a savior you need people who feel like they need to be saved. And that is where having a nervous system that is always in a state of arousal that is always on alert is part of the process where the world is scary, unbelievers are scary, people with pink hair are scary, immigrants are scared. all of the fear tactics are…

Jeremy Schumacher: because they want the only time for you to feel soothed is when you're in the roup community. Even if that's also putting your nervous system on fire.  Yep.

David Bronson: Yeah. Yeah.

David Bronson: And I think too often those of us who are looking at this and " my gosh, guys, wake up." We want to connect with them on a cerebral level, that's what the cult It wants them to stay up here in their head. What's happening is They're not actually thinking do I not believe this? They are just reacting out of their nervous systems desire for security. And that's leading them to hold on to ideology that they think is going to keep them safe. But it isn't like they're not thinking with their upstairs brain. …

Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Right.

David Bronson: it's really nervous system driven whether they realize it or not. because They don't have language for that. I didn't have the word consent until I was in my 20s.

David Bronson: …

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

David Bronson: I barely had the word trauma or cult until I was in my 20s. and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

David Bronson: now they can just put the word woke on all these different concepts and all these different words and you can't touch them. So, you're even further isolated from because you can't think thoughts you don't have words for.

Jeremy Schumacher: And again, I mean, a lot of Gosh, I'm going to be mean to religion again here.

David Bronson: That's okay.

Jeremy Schumacher: I'm not picking on believers. I'm picking on the structure. those so much of religious belief systems are based on logical fallacies.  And you can't logic your way out of a fallacy. when you have somebody who is limiting the semantics or not playing fairly with words, logic isn't the way to do it. my experience was like I needed the science. I will say there are people who do the intellectual thing, but it was also because I was so disconnected from my body like that wouldn't have even been approachable without doing some of the deconstruction doctrally.

00:45:00

Jeremy Schumacher: I was a progressive liberal Christian for a while and I still needed to tug further on some of those strings before I could connect with my body. And so I'll say there's no right or wrong way to deconstruct.

Jeremy Schumacher: I will say everybody needs to figure out what a healthy nervous system feels like because high control religion does not allow for that.

David Bronson: And I mean I do see this in my work you have to deconstruct a certain level to be able to engage in healing your body…

David Bronson: because you have been told all of those resources, tools, practices are, sinful, dangerous, whatever. and so it's like this layering this like you I mean I've been doing it for 18 years. You've been doing it for 20 years. It's a lot.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah. I'm having a little bit of a flashback to a time where I did I did a Bible study on Christian suffering and I talked about yoga and I remember I'm a good little grad student at whatever I was at life. I think it was in grad school. so I'm coming in with all this research and all this data and yoga is so good for everybody across the board. everybody benefits from it. And it was just such a swing and…

David Bronson: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: miss because I was talking to a group of fundamentalist evangelicals who were like that that wasn't accessible in any way, shape or form to them. I didn't get very humorous looking back on that now. I haven't thought about that in years. I wonder if I still have that PowerPoint somewhere. It would be funny to look at that. when do you think Doug Wilson's getting a Netflix or…

David Bronson: There's talk about it. Yep.

Jeremy Schumacher: Hulu or HBO Max documentary? It's got to be coming, right? I will say Clint Heck Dismantling Doctrine podcast. I think he did six hourong episodes on Doug Wilson and the new apostolic reform. because he came out of the Jesus freak movement in the 80s in the Pacific Northwest and so sort of was around for some of that earlier Moscow Idaho stuff and seeing what it's become today. So quick plug if you want to if Doug Wilson isn't in on your radar or you didn't grow up in that specific sect of fundamentalism. that podcast does a really deep dive that I think is pretty approachable for folks.

Jeremy Schumacher: It's a pretty comprehensive view of how that whole movement came to be and…

David Bronson: Mhm.

Jeremy Schumacher: where it's all connected now. so that if people are interested, if it's going to be triggering or unhelpful, don't listen to it. but for those of you who are maybe a little more intellectual or are looking for wait, how does this make sense? The things that Jeremy and Margaret are talking about sound a little crazy. I need more information. that podcast is pretty good. Again, I think he's one of those figures who's sort of flown under the radar without a big abuse scandal.

David Bronson: All right.

Jeremy Schumacher: Even Goth has had some pretty public abuse scandals come out. so it'll happen. But yeah, it's weird to see Hex Seth. And when you said he's in the news, I knew exactly which interview clip I had seen three times this week on different social media sites of " yeah, there's Doug Wilson. That's weird." yeah,…

David Bronson: No. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: information there. but Margaret, let's talk about deconstruction duelas. Where can people go? what do you guys got running right now? What's sort of available for folks who might be looking for some of this safe community secure attachment spaces?  Yeah.

David Bronson: So, we're mostly on Instagram as far as social media platforms go. but we are expanding. I'm getting some help. I could not personally run all the different platforms because most of my work is offline.

David Bronson: working with survivors in their real lives, helping survivors get out, making sure they're getting safe. so what we're doing right now is largely trying to get bigger. And what I mean by that is able to handle more survivors…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

David Bronson: because we have to scale. There's so many survivors. There's so many people who need it. and another big thing we're trying to do right now is we're doing a really big fundraising push. We've never had any sort of seed money. it's just been survivors sharing money and resources with each other. And one of the big things is I wish the deconstruction space held space for this more.

Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yeah.

David Bronson: The financial toll and religious trauma isn't just being sad about church stuff.

00:50:00

David Bronson: it's church hurt isn't just your feelings are hurt. my children are physically suffering, our kids are hurting and we're not safe still. and that's kind of like my community has a lot of people who are in very precarious positions as a direct result of all of the religious trauma. and so, I've spent the last five years working on helping them get safe in their heads and hearts. Their bodies are still trapped behind in communities where they're not safe, in homes where they're not safe, in churches where they're not safe, and it will cost them everything that they have, which isn't much, to get out. we have women who don't have birth certificates, driver's licenses, bank accounts, high school education, work history, whatever, and seven children.

David Bronson: and no one thinks they're allowed to leave or they'd be sitting. So, no one's going to help them get out. And so, I'm trying to raise a large amount of money to help give those kinds of women people who want to get out, but they can't for whatever financial reason.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.  Yeah.

David Bronson: They can't afford housing, legal fees, education, whatever it is to be able to give them some freedom and really like money is the big thing. that will give them that. And so we are trying to raise money right now. If people want to join our community, we have a Patreon, but we have it set so that you can join for free. It's just like an honor system. If you have something to contribute to the work, great. If you don't, that's all right. Pretty much the same benefits apply across all tiers. because we are really big believers in not charging survivors for their healing.

David Bronson: and we don't want to put anything behind a payw wall because we know that a lot of survivors have never made a dollar of their own independent money in their life. And so, yeah, you can find me at Deconstruction Dulos on Instagram and all the links should be pretty easily accessible after that. but yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And we'll have all those links in the show notes. So, you can just wherever you're listening, scroll down in the show notes and find links there. And last but not least, Margaret, what do you do for your own mental well-being?

Jeremy Schumacher: In this work is taxing.  Seeing someone like Pete Hegsth or Mike Johnson on TV with some regularity can be very triggering. How do you take care of yourself?

David Bronson: I could have a whole podcast just on that.

David Bronson: I have therapy and I also do Reiki and I have really good friends that I don't have to mask around at all and they're really good at getting me out of this work and inviting me to things that I would never think to do because I'm so consumed with this work. But also, there are days that I never work a traditional 9 to5.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

David Bronson: There are days where the thing that I have to do is so hard that that's the only thing I do that day and it's so big that that's it and I, lay on a hot pack under a weighted blanket for a couple hours after that and eat something that makes me feel like I'm safe and taken care of.

David Bronson: But the biggest thing that I do is that, coming out of a Doug Wilson styled cult and then being a Southern Baptist pastor's wife,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

David Bronson: so little actual support for the people who are doing the leading. And I think that we have a lot of unhealthy toxic leadership dynamics in American culture in general because we don't build in a structure for them to be cared for and safe and unmasked at the top. We want our leaders to be, machines. and so I'm trying to build out here outside of religion a support system for people who are doing the work.

David Bronson: So I'm looking for ways to do that and a lot of I've been able to put some things together and I feel really hopeful now about my ability to do this work in a sustainable fashion…

David Bronson: because I do have peer support up here now, Yeah, you need

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And that community again is important for the people who are going to pull you out of the work and let you be a real person. That community is important for people who are in the trenches doing the work with you and can relate as well. It's nice to have multiple communities. yeah, and I'll say that as a therapist, too. again the whole point of the podcast your therapist needs therapy is I have networks of therapy friends who we do consultation and things like that. I have friends who never would ever think about saying anything about mental health. and that's really lovely and grounding too so having these multiple spaces is really great and having these spaces online super important.

00:55:00

Jeremy Schumacher: I will just echo your sentiment on funding is a problem. Again, it's not versus non-theists, but America still very much privileges religion. They are privileged with the tax breaks breaks they get and the funding they're allowed to have and all of that sort of stuff. So, having funding for survivors is an uphill battle in a lot of ways.  So for any listeners out there who it's mostly therapists so we're not rolling in the dough by any stretch of the imagination but support helps and for people who are looking for community finding that community people who are looking for a way to support but can't do the work themselves that might be subscribing to a Patreon or chipping in some other way.

Jeremy Schumacher: So, I think that's really great to have all those options. And again, we will have links to all that great work down in the show notes. Margaret, this has been lovely to connect. I'm so thrilled when I get to highlight community work that's being done.

Jeremy Schumacher: Because as much as I think highly of therapy, sometimes therapy is really cost prohibitive to people and We need the community spaces where people can just connect as people. so I'm so glad you took the time to talk with me today and do all the work that you're doing.

David Bronson: Thank you so much for having me and…

David Bronson: thank you for all that you're doing.

Jeremy Schumacher: And to all our wonderful listeners, thanks for tuning in again this week. We'll be back next week with another new episode. Take care, everyone.

Meeting ended after 00:56:49 👋

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