Your Therapist Needs Therapy 123 - Healthy Holiday Boundaries with Emily Aleksy

In this episode, Jeremy and Emily dig into the realities of setting and enforcing holiday boundaries, especially when family dynamics, guilt, and old patterns collide. They explore why boundaries are for the self and not other people, and discuss how unclear limits, people-pleasing, and differing needs make the holidays a pressure cooker for emotional and moral conflict. Together, they offer practical strategies like escape hatches, clear enforcement, self-kindness, and values-aligned decision-making to help listeners navigate chaotic gatherings without abandoning themselves.

Info about Emily’s wonderful practice can be found at ERA Wellness. For info on neurodivergent private practice startups, check out her Instagram, and while you’re doing the social media thing give @ERAwellness a follow as well. 

As always, Jeremy has all his practice info at Wellness with Jer, and you can find him on Instagram and YouTube. To show your love for the show you can pick up some merch! We appreciate support from likes, follows, and shares as well! None of my online work would be possible without my media maven Kenny, so check out their work as well at kenlingdesign.com

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Podcasts about therapy do not replace actual therapy, and listening to a podcast about therapy does not signify a therapeutic relationship.

If you or someone you know is in crisis please call or text the nationwide crisis line at 988, or text HELLO to 741741. The Trevor Project has a crisis line for LGBTQ+ young people that can be reached by texting 678678.

Transcript

Attendees

Emily Aleksy, Jeremy Schumacher

Transcript

Jeremy Schumacher: Hello and welcome to another edition of Your Therapist Needs Therapy, the podcast where two mental health professionals talk about how they navigate mental wellness while working in the mental health field. I'm your host, Jeremy Schumacher, licensed marriage and family therapist. I am joined by one of my frequent collaborators, a wonderful human being, wonderful private practice owner,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Emily Alexie from Era Wellness. I think this does put you at number one currently for most frequent guests. You've done it.

Emily Aleksy: So, I was thinking about that and…

Emily Aleksy: I was like, is that an honor? Is it a weird criticism? I'm not sure because the title is your therapist needs therapy.

Jeremy Schumacher: I think yeah,…

Emily Aleksy: So, is it like I am the therapist that you think needs the most therapy or…

Jeremy Schumacher: it's so much less meaningful than that.

Emily Aleksy: I'm not great.

Jeremy Schumacher: It just happens to be for all the people who I vibe well with, you have the same schedule as me. Whereas some people are very hard to schedule with. I can be like, "Hey, do you want to talk about a thing?" And you're like,…

Emily Aleksy: Okay. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: "Yeah." And then we can schedule it.

Emily Aleksy: Let's talk about the thing.

Jeremy Schumacher: Whereas other people are "Yeah, why don't you get back to me in a month?" I'm like, " I'll forget that." But yeah,…

Emily Aleksy: I'm just more available.

Jeremy Schumacher: our schedules line up,…

Emily Aleksy: Great.

Jeremy Schumacher: so that works well.

Emily Aleksy: …

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. I do think you're great.

Emily Aleksy: it's not that you think I'm that great. I'm just more available.

Jeremy Schumacher: On my list of great people I like to collaborate with,…

Emily Aleksy: All right.

Jeremy Schumacher: you happen to be most aligned with my schedule cuz I think I texted you three days ago and…

Emily Aleksy: All Here we are.

Jeremy Schumacher: was like, "Hey, do you want to talk about boundaries on the podcast?" And you're like, "Yep." And here we are recording. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: So, a holiday. I do think you're overthinking it. So, maybe a thing to talk about with your therapist.

Emily Aleksy: Does that mean I don't have great boundaries?

Emily Aleksy: It's on brand for me, so works well.

Jeremy Schumacher: The topic today is holiday boundaries.

Emily Aleksy: All right, add that to the list. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And part of the reason, I mean, this is why I like collaborating with you because you've been a therapist for a long time I think you and I view mental health similarly. and for anybody who spent any length of time in the mental health field, November and December are spent talking about family gatherings,…

Emily Aleksy: Yep. Yeah,…

Jeremy Schumacher: pretty much 90%. Just your entire case load shifts to what happens when you go see your family of origin.

Emily Aleksy: it's a wild time and I think especially being a therapist and…

Emily Aleksy: seeing your own family during this time also you are with people in the therapy room who are going through a similar thing that you're going through, and so holding the boundaries for yourself both in scheduling and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yep. Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: if stuff is coming up for you. how are you sitting with people who are going through either similar things to you or different things from you and how you're holding space for people while you're in the therapy room?  Making sure you're doing a good job of holding your own stuff and hand helping other people through their stuff while simultaneously holding your own stuff.

Jeremy Schumacher: Which at going into year 17 of therapy, I think I care a lot less about holding that and just sort of tell people I don't see my family for the holidays.

Jeremy Schumacher: That sounds awful.

Jeremy Schumacher: Because people do inevitably ask me. They're always like, "What do you do for the holidays for me?" Not see my family. That's So, that's a great point. I'll consider it and probably not change what I'm doing.

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: But I think that then also gives your client that's an option. I can just not like I don't h…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: what you can just not do that. that's a thing that you can choose to do because I think that that's something that people don't necessarily know that they have the option to do that always,…

Jeremy Schumacher: My experience working with clients is much of holiday planning is out of obligation.

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Right.

Jeremy Schumacher: Whether that's to grandma or that's to your kids or that's to whatever.

Emily Aleksy: Right. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Very rarely are people if they're setting boundaries at all, based on what they want to do.

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Which is the whole point of this conversation. so the thing I think that people miss about boundaries is …

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. how do you introduce boundaries to people? How do you talk about boundaries? right?

Emily Aleksy: 

Emily Aleksy: who they're actually for. Because I think people assume that I'm going to set this boundary and then you're going to follow it, but the boundary that I'm setting is for me. I'm setting my boundary based on what I need and then what I'm going to do regardless of what you do. Because when I set a boundary, I'm assuming pretty much that you're not going to follow it because you don't really have any reason to.

00:05:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Right.

Emily Aleksy: what you've been doing is working for you and I need to be willing to follow through on my boundary. And that's the other piece that I think a lot of people miss is that there's the assumption that I'm going to tell you what my boundary is. I'm going to set this boundary. You're going to automatically follow it and I don't have to follow through on anything. easy peasy. it's magical. You're just going to do what I ask you to do. And that is almost never what happens. I would love that for you. that sounds great. but in my experience, both for myself and with my clients, almost never is that actually what happens. So, you can I think pretty much always assume that number one,…

Emily Aleksy: 

Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: people are not going to follow through on what you say. And you need to be willing to follow through on your I don't want to say consequence, but like what you say you're going to do if they don't follow through on if they break your boundary. So, "If you continue to say sexist things around me,…

Emily Aleksy: 'm going to leave. I need to be willing to leave because you're probably going to continue to say sexist things around me. You have no reason not to because I've not left before. You have no reason to think that I'm actually going to leave. So, I need to be willing to actually do that." And a lot of times people are not willing to follow through on…

Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Right.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. The sort of Right.

Emily Aleksy: what they say they're going to do.

Jeremy Schumacher: Which is why the boundary conversation I think comes up in the first place, is people never set a boundary and…

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: now they're at this point of either deep cognitive dissonance or just general discomfort and the boundary like you say is not for other people. I have to have this conversation regularly with folks too of the boundary is for yourself. You're setting the boundary of when other people behave a certain way my boundary is…

Emily Aleksy: Right. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: what am I doing in response and use the word consequence. I think that fits.

Jeremy Schumacher: I tend to sort of refer to what's the backbone to the boundary …

Emily Aleksy: No. Yeah,…

Jeremy Schumacher: what is the enforcement mechanism…

Emily Aleksy: that's better, Where's the response maybe?

Jeremy Schumacher: because people won't change Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: people won't change their behaviors without some sort of response.

Emily Aleksy: Or reinforcement.

Jeremy Schumacher: And I think in the holidays,…

Emily Aleksy: Then what are you going to do?

Jeremy Schumacher: right, the holidays bring so much of this up because most people's family of origins don't have good healthy boundaries. And then when we're returning to our family of origin, either as young adults or…

Jeremy Schumacher: older full grown adults with our own families, we have these clash of boundaries and expectations that pops up a lot.

Emily Aleksy: And I think especially for at least a lot of the clients that I've worked with,…

Emily Aleksy: it's not only setting boundaries for yourself, but it's setting boundaries for your kids, which adds a layer of complication because often times you're setting boundaries for your kids with your parents,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.  Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: who are people who have broken your boundaries probably a lot of times and also didn't teach you how to set boundaries.  So, you are setting boundaries for yourself and your children with people who probably don't have good boundaries themselves and aren't used to you setting boundaries at all. So, they are likely not going to react well to boundaries from you or for your kids. You probably aren't used to setting boundaries with them. It gets really dicey. So, it's hard to do, especially if you are not willing or wanting to cut off communication or interaction completely.

Emily Aleksy: It can get really tricky of how do I set these in a way that feels okay? If I don't want to totally cut off this relationship, I want to preserve things with them. How do I navigate this?

Emily Aleksy: Especially if they are at a different point of insight or self-discovery or knowledge about themselves than you are.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: Just gets dicey.

Jeremy Schumacher: And I think again I mean I'm a marriage therapist.

Jeremy Schumacher: Family systems is sort of my bread and butter. So we have all these clashing ecosystems of the older parent with the adults child and…

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Mhm.

Jeremy Schumacher: then the adult child's children. And then siblings can be a real nightmare because now you have someone who's on the same generational level as you but maybe also probably has different boundaries than you.

Jeremy Schumacher: And so why are you being so difficult when your sister is being easy to get along with or…

Jeremy Schumacher: that comparison comes in I think a lot that again adds that layer of obligation of this is what we're supposed to be doing because it's Thanksgiving or it's grandma's last holiday or whatever added pressure comes on.

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: The peace.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: Who's peace? Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And it's part of setting expectations around this stuff. I always start with you can't control other people's emotions. So if you have a demanding parent, they're always going to be demanding. It doesn't matter how much you give them, they're going to require more. you're giving up eight hours of your holiday instead of staying overnight. How dare you? it's always that if it's somebody who's not going to be happy, they're just not going to be happy.

00:10:00

Jeremy Schumacher: It doesn't matter if we ignore all our own wants and needs. They're still going to be unhappy. They're still going to find something to complain about.

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Right.

Emily Aleksy: There's not a way to make that okay.

Jeremy Schumacher: And so Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: And so, how do you navigate that within yourself?

Jeremy Schumacher: And so starting with what do you want,…

Jeremy Schumacher: And I think people do all this planning for worst case scenario and they skip what's a good outcome or what's the best case and building from there. And the best case might be you just go to Thanksgiving dinner and nothing else…

Emily Aleksy: Mhm.

Jeremy Schumacher: because 2 hours is plenty.

Jeremy Schumacher: But I think again I get so much push back on that concept because for so many people that's just so foreign to them. Right.

Emily Aleksy: And it's a lot of we always do XYZ. We always get together the night before. We always have brunch. We always but why though? And do you want to? Do you enjoy it? Does it work for your family schedule? Does it work for if you're in a couple, if you now have children, if you have other needs in your family, if you have neurody diverent kids who can't handle that amount of people and…

Emily Aleksy: those foods or that dynamic or that schedule and then you have the ramifications of all the other things. Does that work for you? Is that a thing that makes sense for your family system in your home? Do you want that? No. …

Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: then why are you doing it? Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: I think people feel like I mean there's guilt certainly and then also you're confronting potentially years of bad boundaries yourself there's this guilt that comes along with it's gotten to this point and I understand that I hold a lot of space for all of that stuff and I think that's a lot of noise that doesn't necessarily help us make a good decision for…

Jeremy Schumacher: what to do or how to set our boundaries in the present moment.

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Or even just like stopping enough to think about…

Emily Aleksy: what is it that I actually want because I think there's a lot of things that we're not stopping to think about that because that's just…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: what we've always done. So, we just continue to do it. with all of the chaos of the holiday season, how many people are really stopping to think do I want to do if you participate in the sort of traditional stuff of Christmas like Saint Nick and going to the Nutcracker or going to look at Christmas lights and doing this tree lighting thing and doing stockings and all of these other activities to this entire season that this has become.

Emily Aleksy: Do I really want to do all of these things? Is this actually enjoyable for me? How many people are actually stopping to think about if they actually want to do those things? Probably not that many.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: I think our generation wants to give their kids a good experience. Gian, I'm a parent. I understand that. And I'll speak generationally here.

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Mhm.

Jeremy Schumacher: I think millennial parents do a bad job of dissecting what about the holiday season they want to give their kids. And so we end up even though we know there's bad boundaries and there's drama or whatever, replicating what our parents did because we just don't have a different blueprint.

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And so what's nice about the holiday is family time. Is it?

Jeremy Schumacher: Is it though? Or is it you like going up north? Or is it you like, this other thing that goes along with family time instead of having to deal with family?

Emily Aleksy: Is that family time though or is that just chaos and spending money and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Right.

Emily Aleksy: pretty pictures and fancy outfits and expensive tickets and yelling at your kids because they're not cooperating? And is that family time? is anyone actually enjoying that? Cuz I Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And I call it the fireplace family or the mantle.

Jeremy Schumacher: The fireplace family is what I generally say cuz I like alliteration. But it's like the idea of your family just wants that picture to put on the fireplace.

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And everything that goes around that, the screaming, the arguing before and after that picture gets taken is irrelevant as long as we get the good picture that we can put up and say, " our family looks nice." And I think that's how a lot of people approach the boundaries is like,…

Jeremy Schumacher: it'll keep these people happy or it presents the idea of family without actually being built on relationship or respect or anything that a familiar relationship ideally would be built on.

00:15:00

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: Can look nice from the outside, but there's nothing inside.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: There's not actual connection. There's no actual enjoyment for anyone.

Jeremy Schumacher: And I'm down on the traditional version of holidays,…

Jeremy Schumacher: but again I'm not bismerching people who travel for the holidays or want to get together with family or have those things they enjoy. I think again it really helps to set expectations and build your boundaries out by knowing what you want. If you like playing cribage late at night after everyone goes to bed,…

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. I don't know.

Jeremy Schumacher: great, do that. let's build that. these cousins or…

Jeremy Schumacher: other family members you maybe don't get to see that often. hell yeah, I'm here for that. How do we navigate the stuff that we don't like or the stuff that we don't want while still getting the pieces of it that we do?

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: So, this morning I texted you and I said, "What idea do you have for this conversation?" And your response was basically, "I don't know. This seems to be a thing that a lot of people struggle with. I don't really get it. which I thought was really really interesting. And so I started thinking about okay so when I have struggled with boundaries what has made that really hard for me and so in the way that I do things I started making a list of and…

Emily Aleksy: 

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: it seems that I am a list maker. I love my lists its list and post- are my brand of nerd divergence.

Jeremy Schumacher: Amazing. Yep.

Emily Aleksy: But things that have made boundaries hard for me that I think may resonate with other people and I think may be helpful for other people to think about what is making boundary setting hard for me is when people pleasing comes in. So when I'm focusing on meeting the needs of other people and pleasing other people instead of myself. So if you're saying yes to things just to please other people instead of thinking about what you really want or I'm going to this thing…

Emily Aleksy: because other people want me to or whatever. so that was the first one and I think that comes up a lot for people,

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, for sure.

Jeremy Schumacher: And I think that's why obligation and that sense of guilt that's what so many family members use to get people to sort of disrespect or…

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. No. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: break their own boundaries is again they're the classics that I'm not throwing shade. This is just what I hear in my office often, it's grandma's last year or this is what we always do or your sister's flying in from and there are these ways to build pressure to get that people pleasing, I think, to come out and that's a lot of family dynamic, right? That starts when we're little kids. We are rewarded for being easy to get along with. We are rewarded for not rocking the boat.

Emily Aleksy: And I also think what has gone along with that and what I think probably goes along with it for a lot of people is when you really care about somebody, when I think about my relationship with my mom,…

Emily Aleksy: I really love her and I want her to have a lovely holiday. So, I'm more likely to break my own boundaries because I want her to be happy, …

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: I want her to have a Christmas that she enjoys. So I am more likely to compromise my own boundaries because I would like her to have a holiday that she likes, So I think that that is an element as well is that how do you navigate that? So where do I draw my own boundaries? I am more likely to compromise things for her than I might be for somebody else.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: So I think that element also can be tricky. yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: I think the catch 22 of it is where people really struggle, you're aware this thing is unhealthy and there's not a healthy option available. So, it's like, right, I have this family member I want to see or I have this relationship that is important to me. I want to invest time and energy into that.

Jeremy Schumacher: And what comes along with that is Uncle Bob who says racist things or what and it's that catch22 then of there is a piece I'm intentionally choosing to participate in and…

Jeremy Schumacher: the package deal that comes along with that is stuff that's going to go against what boundaries I'd like to

Emily Aleksy: Right. Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: And so my second one on the list is when needs or wants differ. And I think that goes along with what you just said of okay I may want to go to part of this or my spouse wants to go to this but I don't. So, how do we navigate when the needs are different here? Or let's say you have issue with some things that your in-laws say, but your spouse is okay with it.

00:20:00

Emily Aleksy: How do you figure out…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: what to do in that situation? How do you navigate that with your partner? How do you navigate that with in-laws or whoever? Or, setting boundaries with kids when they are maxed out or one kid is maxed out but the other ones want to stay. How do you set boundaries for your family when not everybody's needs or boundaries match all the time?

Jeremy Schumacher: And just friendly reminder that research over and over again shows the mother-in-law dynamic to be the most stressful of all family relationships for both genders.

Emily Aleksy: I can't imagine why.

Jeremy Schumacher: For all genders. yeah. So again, I mean there's a lot of this that is just I think normal and typical and…

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: it's I mean Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents is a bestseller for a reason.

Jeremy Schumacher: And we have an entire generation, I think our generation, who's gone to therapy and done some of our work and we're then interacting with generations who haven't done that. And there's a big clash that goes along with,…

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. It's respect.

Jeremy Schumacher: when our needs differ, but one generation thinks you should defer to their needs because they're older or that's what love means is respecting your grandma's wishes or…

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: whatever it is.

Emily Aleksy: But it could be her last Christmas.

Jeremy Schumacher: She won't remember it.

Emily Aleksy: Great. I don't Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: No, I'm And I don't want to pretend like this is easy for me. I will just say my boundaries with my family are so old at this point that it's very comfortable when you have good healthy boundaries to trust the enforcement of them works well.

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Jeremy Schumacher: Whereas right, I mean my wife and I when we first got married had the in-law stuff and which family were we picking and who got…

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Right.

Jeremy Schumacher: what holiday and blah blah blah blah the normal stuff, right? So again, this is not it's my podcast. I'm the expert. It's just like yeah,…

Emily Aleksy: Right. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: at this point I don't want much of the family dynamic that comes with traditional holidays. And that makes it simpler for everyone else too cuz I'm not somebody who bites my tongue and that's simpler to not be around then because I'm not going to not call out racist, homophobic, transphobic,…

Emily Aleksy: But I think that that's important to remember is that people know…

Jeremy Schumacher: misogynistic, whatever pickism.

Emily Aleksy: what your boundaries are. You've communicated them very clearly and you've enforced them clearly.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: Hearkening back to what we were talking about earlier is that you've enforced your boundaries really clearly and that you've probably left places many times or not gone back to places when people have continued to not respect your boundaries and that people know what to expect from you. you've spent years doing that. That wasn't a one-time enforcement of what you said you were going to do.

Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Mhm. Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: It took many repetitions of this is my boundary.  you are not respecting it. I am going to leave. And I think that's important to remember too is it's not telling somebody your boundary one time they didn't listen. You enforced it. You left and they were like, " my god, I get it now. I'm totally going to respect it." It was many times and repetitions and probably difficult conversations and not fun stuff and imperfection on all sides and all sorts of things.

Emily Aleksy: It's not like you did it once perfectly and it was all sunshine and roses and…

Emily Aleksy: everybody got it and it went super great. it was likely very difficult and complicated in a lot of ways.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And for And all of that is true. And just highlighting that on the other side of good healthy boundaries, it is some simplicity. when you know what your boundaries are and…

Jeremy Schumacher: you're comfortable enforcing them,…

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: it does get easier to do that.

Jeremy Schumacher: When you've left and respected your boundaries and you feel good about that, that feels good. that's nice to know, hey, I can just put in two hours and then leave and grandma will say something or my mom will say something or whatever. And also that doesn't matter. It doesn't ruin anything.

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. …

Jeremy Schumacher: It's fine.

Emily Aleksy: that's a really good segue because the third thing on my list was the third thing on when setting boundaries has been hard has been when my boundaries been unclear or…

Jeremy Schumacher: We didn't plan this at all.

Emily Aleksy: I haven't been listening to myself,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: that is confusing and difficult so when your boundary is clear when you're listening to what you need. When you've been clear to other people about what they can expect from you, that becomes simple.

00:25:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: It may still be difficult. It doesn't make it like, this is not hard or this is exactly how I wanted it to be. It's lovely and this is the perfect relationship, but it's clear Okay.

Jeremy Schumacher: And I thought it was interesting when you said adding kids to the mix makes it harder because I found having kids clarified so much of what was maybe abstract for me was I put up with this for years, but I'm not going to make my kids do that." And what you're talking about when you're unclear on it, it's hard to enforce boundaries. and this is just my experience, but by being a parent,…

Emily Aleksy: Yeah, sure.

Jeremy Schumacher: it clarified a lot of that stuff of like, " yeah, people pleased. I did all that stuff. I grew up super religious,…

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: right? So, that's a big part of that. And just being like, "Yeah, I'm not putting my kids through." That was a really strong backbone to some of those boundaries that I didn't have when I wasn't a parent.

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Cuz you're like, I will not let you do to them what you did to me in a Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I will not Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And so, yes, I mean certainly that dynamic gets complex when those boundaries overlap and your kids see why does grandma talk to you like that or why does you know what it's like, jeez, I'm not ready for this conversation. but again I do think it's the potential is there for clarity with …

Emily Aleksy: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: how are you setting those boundaries as a parent for your kids. That's again so much more of what you control than meeting other people's expectations. And so I do think that's a good place to start some of those expectations and that boundary setting is great this is how we're raising our kids and that's…

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Maybe I want to rephrase that.

Jeremy Schumacher: what we control so that's the thing we can focus on.

Emily Aleksy: It doesn't make things more difficult. It forces some things to the light.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, for sure.

Emily Aleksy: whereas maybe you could have continued allowing some things it's like no you got to deal with this…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah,…

Emily Aleksy: because I think a lot of us are not willing to let cycles continue for our kids that we might have let continue for ourselves…

Jeremy Schumacher: for Yeah. …

Emily Aleksy: because I agree with that I think that's true for me as well that there are things  that I may have continued allowing for myself that I'm like absolutely the f not will I let you do that to my kid. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: and even just I mean you talked about neurody divergent kids. Both of we are parents of neurody divergent children.

Jeremy Schumacher: There are things where my seven-year-old is a tiny version of me and so runs hot, always is warm, really doesn't like things on his skin,…

Jeremy Schumacher: all that stuff. And so it's going to my grandma's house, it's like, yeah, I remember being miserable here. And all the stuff that I was made to feel bad about, it's too hot in here. You should turn on the air conditioning. because he's been raised to speak up for himself and that's just a different concept. And we also don't stay for an entire weekend or…

Emily Aleksy: Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: days on end. It's maybe a 24-hour visit tops. that's probably what I needed as a kid and that's not how anybody was doing things.

Jeremy Schumacher: And so then I don't know again my experience it's nice to enforce those boundaries on his behalf and…

Jeremy Schumacher: there's an awareness I have that's nice for if you're an IFS person like inner child some of that stuff comes up too and that's a nice sort of loop to close for my brain of that didn't happen and that sucks and I don't have a time machine but I can enforce that on my kids behalf.

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: And know that it's not rude for a seven-year-old to say,…

Emily Aleksy: "My body is uncomfortable because it feels hot. that is a factual thing.

Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: That is not a criticism of anyone else. that's just a true statement. he's allowed to feel hot.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Mhm.

Emily Aleksy: Why can't he feel that?

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. What were people in the 80s and 90s doing that we all had to feel bad about that s***?

Emily Aleksy: Much shame. That was it.

Jeremy Schumacher: Emily, what else was on your list?

Jeremy Schumacher: I'm invested in the list. yeah.

Emily Aleksy: Those were the three things that I come up with. People pleasing, when needs and wants differ, and boundary unclear, not listening to self. And then I just remembering the boundaries for you, not them. And you have to be willing to enforce your boundary.

00:30:00

Jeremy Schumacher: And I think that enforcement so often does come down to physical presence.

Jeremy Schumacher: And whether that's not going to an event or leaving an event early, or even just excusing yourself to go for a walk,…

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: go to the bathroom, splash some water on your face. again, that breaking of I'm engaging with this with my time and energy, my physical presence to say I'm not participating in that.

Jeremy Schumacher: That's the boundary.

Emily Aleksy: So, one thing that I do think it may make sense to have a little bit of a discussion about is…

Emily Aleksy: what is the difference between setting a boundary that includes some sort of enforcement and…

Emily Aleksy: a threat? So, if you continue to say things like that, I'm going to leave. How is that different than a threat? How would you explain that?

Jeremy Schumacher: because I think…

Jeremy Schumacher: how I explain that we are setting an expectation where all the parties involved have autonomy in that and…

Jeremy Schumacher: so it's not I

Jeremy Schumacher: I'm watching The Sopranos right now. So, that's just what pops into my head of it's not a mob boss saying you have to get this much money this week or I'm going to come bust your shop up, it's not you must do this or else dictating an action to that person. It's saying, "Hey, I respect your autonomy, your free will. If you use that to do these things, I'm not going to participate.

Emily Aleksy: right? Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: So it's not like I am doing something to you…

Emily Aleksy: if you continue something.

Jeremy Schumacher: Great. Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: I am withdrawing. I am stepping back. I am doing something differently if this continues. yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And I think, my grandparents would view that as a threat, we're talking semantics here, but there is no way to explain that to an older generation…

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Right.

Jeremy Schumacher: who never had healthy boundaries.

Emily Aleksy: But I've had that come up is like,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: okay, but that sounds like a threat. And I get that it can sound similar, but again it's I think semantics and if someone wants to argue with you about that, I think that's also probably a person you need to have smart boundaries with. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And again, I mean, there's a cause and reaction to certain things. And so I think the difference is you're not trying to dictate their cause. You're saying if you use your autonomy to say horrible s***, I'm going to leave.

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Right.

Jeremy Schumacher: You have the autonomy to not say that, which is what I would prefer, and then I'll stay. So it's like there is an option here.

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: We're just sort of playing the most likely outcome.

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: If you drop I was just going to say…

Emily Aleksy: And I think it's really right.

Jeremy Schumacher: if you drop something into the gorilla enclosure, they're going to take it. the gorilla is not threatening you. There's an action that happens first.

Emily Aleksy: it's a reasonable and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah, right.

Emily Aleksy: I think that's part of it is keeping what's going to happen really reasonable, because also if you make it something completely unreasonable, the person's also not going to believe you. let's say I live in a multigenerational home and I'm like, if you continue to eat my chips, I'm never going to speak to you again. that's silly and unreasonable. But if you continue to eat all of our shared food and not contribute to the, sort of like communal grocery budget, I am going to start purchasing my own groceries or something like that, because I don't feel like this is an equal,…

Emily Aleksy: whatever. But it's making that…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: then consequence reasonable and enforceable and something that you're willing to do and is reasonable to do. if it's a completely unreasonable thing, you're not going to do it. It's not enforcable. It's not going to happen. They have no reason to follow your boundary. And you're not going to follow your boundary, which makes it an unusable boundary.  Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And when we talk about healthy boundaries, a lot of families are inshed, which means their boundaries are way too rigid and strict, and there's not much space for nuance or adjusting things. the boundaries can also be diffused, which is no boundaries at all, which means, those are the families who want you to show up, but haven't made any plans. There's no good communication.

Jeremy Schumacher: There's no collaboration or expectation building that's done. It's just sort of like you're supposed to go to my mom's house and…

Jeremy Schumacher: there's no other details. And I find partners who are drawn into that dynamic really struggle with sort of those diffuse boundaries where there's no communication and there's really low expectation setting can also be chaotic. I like to talk about escape hatches.

00:35:00

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Yeah,…

Emily Aleksy: that makes sense.

Jeremy Schumacher: Again, I like alliteration. So, the holiday escape hatch.

Jeremy Schumacher: which is if we're going to a place where our boundaries might be tested or pushed to look at realistically and plan for what are my escape routes,…

Jeremy Schumacher: how do I leave, whether it's leaving early or if we're traveling somewhere, what route can I take to take the dog for a walk or go take the kids outside or sit at the kid table or what are my options for not participating when I don't want to participate without maybe the larger or unaccessible for some reason full leave and be gone from the entire gathering.

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And I find just planning that out helps people a lot.

Jeremy Schumacher: that reduces a lot of anxiety to have that plan sort of fully thought out because it makes a world of difference to give yourself that permission ahead of time and be like, "Right, I can just go sit at the kid table.

Emily Aleksy: So, if someone is going into a holiday gathering that they think might be difficult, what are the things that they should remember about boundaries? they're going into this big family gathering is likely to be kind of a hot mess because I got a bunch of tricky family members. What are the biggest things that they should remember about their boundaries going into that? Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I think my least wieldy mantra is hope for the best, plan for the worst. Somewhere in the middle is typically what happens. But I do like we know what will go wrong.

Jeremy Schumacher: If we're going into an event with this gonna be a hot mess.

Emily Aleksy: Yeah.  I know you're like football in the garage.

Jeremy Schumacher: You already know what you're worried about, what you're used to happening, it's the hope for the best part. that's good mental work to do to pull out what part of this do you actually want? What's the piece that is important to you to make sure that you get that? And then we can sort of work backwards from there and figure out what are the things we're not participating in? How are we communicating that? What's enforcement look like? I'm going to get up and leave when politics come up. I'm gonna whatever that is again. And in that context, I'm gonna go sit in the other room or I'm gonna go outside or I'm gonna go watch football in the garage or whatever, maybe you're going to get a hotel instead of staying at someone's house. I'm outing myself as very Midwestern just assuming people are sleeping at their relatives house. but yeah, I mean whatever that context is.

Jeremy Schumacher: I know when my wife and I got married, one of our first steps in this boundary journey was staying at a hotel instead of staying at people's houses cuz then we could just leave. we weren't stuck there all weekend and…

Emily Aleksy: Yeah, you're not trapped.

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: we weren't dramatically leaving two days before we were supposed to. We were just like, "Hey, we're going to go take a nap at the hotel or whatever and then reset the next day or whatever or politics or religion or whatever we don't want to participate in comes up, we can just peace out." …

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: and that's not again always available to people. I'm just sort of building an idea of think through your escape route, think through your enforcement mechanisms because again boundaries aren't something that just we set them and then they're respected. That enforcement has to happen usually multiple times before change is going to happen.

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Yeah.  I would also add that kindness to yourself throughout, continuing to check in with yourself throughout of things may not feel how you think they're going to feel. Things may come up that you didn't expect. that felt worse than I thought I need to switch gears. that felt okay. I didn't know it was going to.

Emily Aleksy: So, just continue to check in with yourself throughout whatever gathering or…

Emily Aleksy: whatever weekend. kindness to yourself with imperfection of,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: my god, they said that and I feel frozen. I should have left." That's okay. you don't need to beat yourself up for it. Leave If that was your escape hatch, if you couldn't leave, that's also okay. You're doing your best in a hard situation. So remembering that, resetting when you can, continuing to be kind to yourself throughout the process. if you can have an ally there to remind you of the things,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: whether it's a partner or a cool cousin or a weird aunt or whoever, that can remind you of the things, I think that can be really helpful just to check in with or be a touch point and reinforce the things. I feel like there was something else I was going to say,…

00:40:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: 

Emily Aleksy: but I can't remember what it was. I think just kindness to yourself,…

Jeremy Schumacher: I Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: being flexible.

Jeremy Schumacher: And I love the kindness emotionally, but also physical kindness to yourself. Hydrate, rest,…

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: go to bed early if you need to. some of those things that were not only are these emotionally tense or stressful interactions,…

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: but then we're eating garbage, we're staying up late, we're having alcohol or other substances. we're often doing things outside of our norm on a routine or a schedule that's outside of our norm.

Jeremy Schumacher: And that is especially for the millennials who are tuning in. Our bodies can't bounce back from that they used to be able to. So Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: Maybe check the al don't hit the alcohol super hard. I know it's tempting if you're in a really hard situation be like I'm just going to drink a little more wine, but not the best idea if it's going to be hard…

Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: if you're a drinker,…

Jeremy Schumacher: If you're a drinker, we're in Wisconsin recording this, so alcohol is a part of it.

Emily Aleksy: right? It is.

Jeremy Schumacher: Like I say this too and I'm licensed therapist so I can't recommend using an illegal substance which I'm not doing. But if you're in a state that is legal, weed's going to take the edge off a lot differently than alcohol is. alcohol numbs you…

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: but also lowers your inhibitions and slows down your response time and your critical thinking skills. And we does some of that too, but with a very different I don't give a s*** approach,…

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Yeah,…

Jeremy Schumacher: which usually leads to less drama instead of more drama. So, hit your cool ants weed stash.

Emily Aleksy: I think if you're going to use whatever you're going to use, just know your limits.

Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yep.

Emily Aleksy: It's probably not the time to try something new or hit something harder than you usually would regardless of what you're doing. just, stay Play safe.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah. And again, I mean, I hold so much space for getting to see some of those family members,…

Jeremy Schumacher: those cool aunts and uncles who we maybe don't usually get to hang out with. And again, that can be very wonderful. Meeting a new niece or nephew, new additions to the family, some of that stuff's really fun. And I get all of that. And so if you want to party hard, if it is again, I said cribage earlier, so I'm really hitting the Midwest tropes here.

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: You are really Wisconsin today. You've got a Green Bay Packer mug. You are What else you old fashions?

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. …

Emily Aleksy: What other cheesy potatoes you said?

Jeremy Schumacher: Get some oldfashions But if you're going to drink and play sheep's head till very early in the morning and that's what you want from the holiday like again that's great.

Jeremy Schumacher: own that, but Plan for recovery the next day. Plan for hydration. Like you you can have fun and be intentional with it.

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Yep.

Jeremy Schumacher: And there's a part of me that's like, if I was going to with my cool cousins, I'd be like, "Hey, let's do I can't say this on a podcast. Never mind." those aren't legal. If you're in Oregon and you're doing psychedelics where they are decriminalized at least, Maybe that's what you want to do, but plan for that.

Emily Aleksy: Right. Yeah,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Don't last minute sneak it in or, think you can hide it from your judgy grandma. make space for it so that's a positive experience instead of the new drama for the next six weeks because you really offended everybody.

Emily Aleksy: But it's also probably not the thing to do…

Emily Aleksy: if you are disregulated and upset and anxious and spiralally and may not be the time.

Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And if you get anxious from smoking weed, don't do that, again, there's so much of what I say is couched in some self-awareness.

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Person independent. Very person dependent. Know yourself.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah,…

Jeremy Schumacher: And this is a separate podcast that I didn't plan to record. but I think not having good boundaries creates a moral injury for yourself.

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Mhm.

Jeremy Schumacher: And I think even sometimes depending on how we're celebrating and what we're celebrating Thanksgiving's coming up recording before Thanksgiving. Hello people road tripping in the Midwest.

Jeremy Schumacher: That's a weird holiday to celebrate, I could tell you indigenous people aren't celebrating it. It's not a national holiday that's fun for everyone.

Emily Aleksy: Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: Right. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And so there's even I think moral injury potentially for people who are like, "Yeah, we're participating. We're celebrating something that we don't really want or think should be celebrated. It just happens to be that these are the days we get off from work." And so there's some weirdness around I think the existential nature of…

Emily Aleksy: Mhm. Wait. Yeah. Yeah.

00:45:00

Jeremy Schumacher: what are we celebrating and why and is that okay? And again probably each generation has a different opinion about that. So

Emily Aleksy: So if your family is a family that for instance celebrates Christmas and so that's when all of your cousins are in town and so people are together on Christmas but you're not a person who celebrates Christmas. That's your opportunity to get together with these people that you never see. But this is not a holiday that speaks to your value system or that you feel good about because it's not a religion that feels good to you morally or…

Emily Aleksy: 

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: ethically or for whatever reason or you're a person that's been harmed by the church or whatever else. that's a real tricky values. that's really complicated. That's a lot of stuff coming up on holiday regardless of all the boundaries and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Emily Aleksy: everything else.

Jeremy Schumacher: And I mean, religious trauma is one of my specialties, right? So,…

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: I think our different specialties are shining through a little bit too because your parinatal mental health and so you have new moms who are maybe really wanting that family or needing that family support.

Jeremy Schumacher: And so that's a different approach to a boundary. Whereas if you're a queer person…

Jeremy Schumacher: who was harmed by the religion that your family still practices right we might be leaning more towards don't go is a good boundary to set…

Emily Aleksy: Right. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: because some of those situations can't be anything but harmful dependent on the severity of dogma and some of that other stuff. Right. that's a big reason why I don't do the religious quote unquote national holidays that are couched in religion.

Jeremy Schumacher: My family's still super religious And so, it's just not worth it to even have to be like,…

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. Mhm.

Jeremy Schumacher: "Yeah, no, we're not going to go to church. Obviously, you should stop asking us." But that would come up. They think it's being polite, know. I'm not sure. Maybe they're trying to save us still.

Jeremy Schumacher: But yeah, I mean those religious dynamics, some of that stuff. It's the idea that our national holiday follows one specific religion is also a separate topic.

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. I feel like that could be a lot of podcast for each.

Jeremy Schumacher: I should I'm like, " man, I'm doing a moral injury podcast for sure." Emily, who do you have on staff that wants to talk about moral injuries?

Jeremy Schumacher: you's just the top of my list for Emily's one of those neurode divergent extroverts that I'm not so cuz your network is expansive is…

Emily Aleksy: 

Emily Aleksy: I am so not an extrovert. I don't know why I think I'm an extrovert. I have another meeting right after this and…

Jeremy Schumacher: why boundaries it's work for us all it's tricky yeah,…

Emily Aleksy: I have to talk to more people and I just don't know how I'm going to do that for two hours in a row. that boundaries are tricky. That's a good thing to remember.

Jeremy Schumacher: and we're just talking context of holidays.

Jeremy Schumacher: But yes, I mean boundaries on a day-to-day basis are tricky. I mean, all of this is things that us licensed professionals are still working our way through.

Emily Aleksy: They're tricky.

Emily Aleksy: And they can as you learn more about yourself and as you go through time and figure yourself out and your priorities change or your perspective changes or whatever, your boundaries can change too.

Emily Aleksy: They are not like static set in stone. They are only allowed to be one thing and they are unchangeable forever.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And ideally, I mean, with boundaries, growth and change does happen. Ideally, with some enforcement,…

Emily Aleksy: Yeah. There.

Jeremy Schumacher: maybe our family of origin or whoever it does softens or grows or changes or whatever it is where we can adjust some of our boundaries because other people are adjusting their behaviors. that is the ideal outcome here. So cool.

Emily Aleksy: Yep. Yay!

Jeremy Schumacher: It's been a blast.

Emily Aleksy: Boundary. Yay!

Jeremy Schumacher: Yay, boundaries.

Emily Aleksy: Boundary. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: If people want to learn more about your work, they can obviously tune in to four or five other episodes. but…

Emily Aleksy: Mhm. Aerrowwellness theapy.com is our website.

Jeremy Schumacher: if they want to see your practice or the wonderful clinicians who are also there, where do they go? How do they find you?

Emily Aleksy: You can go there to check out all of our many specialties that are basically centering around perinatal and reproductive mental health, which is fertility, pregnancy, parenting, trying to raise humans and a really tricky world and kind of everything around that.

Emily Aleksy: So figuring out who you are in the midst of all of those experiences whether or not you choose to be a parent or decide that that's just not the thing for you because our society is really really centered on parenting and raising kids and that's just not for everybody either. So we do that too. Cool.

00:50:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, for sure.

Jeremy Schumacher: And we'll have links to that stuff in the show notes. Emily, thanks for joining me once again. And to all our wonderful listeners, I hope you're driving safely and enjoying your travels to whatever destination you have for the holiday. We'll be back next week with another new episode. Take care, everyone.

Meeting ended after 00:50:36 👋

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