Your Therapist Needs Therapy
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Your Therapist Needs Therapy
Your Therapist Needs Therapy 137 - Co-Creating Social Worlds Symposium (Part 1)
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This week Jeremy gets to talk about an upcoming symposium he is attending. Jeremy shares the conversation starter paper he wrote, “Questioning the Utility of Religion as Moral Arbiter” in all its nerdy social constructionist glory. Part 2 will be new learnings, great conversations, and hopefully not too much travel drama after the symposium wraps up. To learn more about the wonderful Taos Institute head over to taosinstitute.net to see upcoming events, workshops, or do some self-paced learning.
And if you’re over on the east coast and want to connect later this year, check out the upcoming retreat Rest & Return: A Weekend for Soft Landings. This retreat is designed to let your nervous system settle and come back to yourself. It’s rest, grounding, and trauma-informed connection instead of more noise.
As always, Jeremy has all his practice info at Wellness with Jer, and you can find him on Instagram and YouTube. To show your love for the show you can pick up some merch! We appreciate support from likes, follows, and shares as well! None of my online work would be possible without my media maven Kenny, so check out their work as well at kenlingdesign.com
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Podcasts about therapy do not replace actual therapy, and listening to a podcast about therapy does not signify a therapeutic relationship.If you or someone you know is in crisis please call or text the nationwide crisis line at 988, or text HELLO to 741741. The Trevor Project has a crisis line for LGBTQ+ young people that can be reached by texting 678678.
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Hey, yo.
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Welcome to another edition of Your
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Therapist Needs Therapy.
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I'm your host, Jeremy Schumacher,
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licensed marriage and family therapist.
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Today,
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I'm going to talk about something I'm
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doing professionally, because that's fun.
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The Taos Institute is a group of social
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constructionist thinkers, practitioners,
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educators, therapists.
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I've had a bunch of them on my
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podcast already.
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The Taos Institute is sort of the central
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hub,
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used to be associated with Tilburg
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University, the Netherlands.
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and had a degree program,
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now does sort of like working with like
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postgraduate type folks.
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For those of us who are already
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professionals,
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who are already in our career,
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it serves as like a hub for like-minded
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professionals to collaborate,
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to co-create,
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to do a lot of stuff that's really
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cool and meaningful with other people who
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take a social constructionist lens on
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things.
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I, as a therapist,
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was sort of introduced to the concept in
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grad school as we were studying postmodern
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therapies.
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which generally are sort of,
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I'm gonna say bracketed as narrative
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therapy, solution-focused therapy,
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and collaborative language therapy.
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Of those three,
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collaborative language is probably the
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lesser known, least known,
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And outside of the Taos Institute,
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which like is cheating, right?
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Because that's where these practitioners
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are.
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I've never run into somebody who
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identifies as collaborative language or
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even knows what collaborative language
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therapy is outside of the Taos Institute.
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And my one supervisor in my training
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program who introduced me to the concept.
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which was lovely.
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Uh, Harleen Anderson's book conversations,
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language of possibility.
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I regularly cite as a thing that kept
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me from quitting grad school and, um,
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really feeling like therapy wasn't what I
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thought it was going to be.
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So that's a lovely book,
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especially for young therapists,
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especially for people who are interested
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in the helping professions.
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That is my approach to therapy.
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Uh, very much so while I, I joke,
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um,
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Some of the other Taoist people who have
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been on, one of them is Bruno Lenzi.
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You can check out that episode earlier.
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The episode I have with Bruno,
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the way I talk about therapy with Bruno
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is like my social constructionist,
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postmodern collaborative language therapy.
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And then like,
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it was like the week before something that
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I recorded with Madeline Bush and we
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talked a lot about DBT.
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And so I do think those two episodes
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sort of highlight the two different
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schools of thought, of practice,
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of technique that I draw from the most
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as a therapist.
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This is a really long preamble to say
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the Taos Institute is hosting a symposium
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in New York City at Mercy University,
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which is awesome.
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to be able to meet in person.
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I have been a member of the Taoist
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Institute for a while,
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a couple of years now.
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Go to online workshops and different
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trainings and also get to socialize with
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other like-minded professionals.
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Just like a call,
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a Zoom call I get on once a
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month that's become really meaningful to
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me.
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And I get to meet some of those
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people in person finally.
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Hooray!
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Yay for in-person meetings.
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so uh that's really cool i've also never
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been to new york city i've been to
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i'm thirty seven years old i don't know
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why that's relevant uh i've been to thirty
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eight out of fifty states not been to
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alaska or hawaii and then pretty much the
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ten states and the northeast i haven't
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been to um so not only have i
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never been to new york city i've never
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really been to the northeast region of the
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united states
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Just for whatever reason,
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never got out there between sports and
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stuff.
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It just didn't happen.
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So I'm excited for that, which is awesome.
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And then in a couple of months,
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I'll be in Boston.
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So crossing off my Northeast states.
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The symposium is in collaboration with
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Mercy University, as I mentioned.
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And, you know,
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a symposium is not a conference, right?
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A symposium is sort of this idea that
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we're going to get together as
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professionals, as thinkers,
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as people and
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engage in dialogue and learn from each
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other.
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And that's one of the big things with
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social construction is learning,
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understanding, knowledge is relational.
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And so every conversation creates the
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opportunity to make a new learning and to
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create understanding in a way that didn't
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exist before.
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And I love that sentiment.
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The world would be a better place if
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all of us approached words that way.
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if all of us had a wonder to
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the possibilities that could happen
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anytime we get to interact with someone
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else.
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So, you know, the internet's not that.
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I can tell you as somebody who has
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to read through YouTube comments.
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internet is not that unfortunately so i'm
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really looking forward to the conference
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um i've been trying to think of a
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way to talk about the conference and what
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it'll be like and um
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I wrote a conversation starting paper for
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it.
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And again, I love the symposium idea.
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This isn't for continuing eds,
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although as a professional who needs to
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get continuing ed credits,
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that'd be great.
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This isn't a learning conference in that
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we're gonna have a speaker who's talking
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at us and we all get to gush
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and go buy their book or follow them
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on social media.
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This symposium is really set up as a
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way
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conversation is going to happen between
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like-minded professionals,
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between sometimes not like-minded
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professionals.
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And we're going to talk about what's going
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on in the world and what's going on
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in our professions and how we learn and
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interact and create.
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Again,
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co-creating social worlds is the title.
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And that's
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An idea on how do we bridge gaps
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in connection and understanding?
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How do we use our language?
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How do we connect with other people?
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Not just with our physical words,
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but how do we communicate across borders,
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across divides in how people interact with
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the world?
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And that's certainly really needed now,
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but there's a lightness and a playfulness
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to the symposium that isn't just here's
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how people talk at you and tell you.
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be educated in the way that that they're
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educated but but this is really about
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engaging in dialogue and learning together
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and so the the symposium called for sort
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of some conversation starters there are
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some keynote speakers which will be sort
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of that more conference vibe and then
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there's conversation starters and and so
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um members of the taos community and some
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of the students from mercy university and
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um people from around the world got to
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to submit
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conversation starting papers.
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And then at the symposium,
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we'll have breakout sessions to talk about
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these papers.
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And so I just,
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I love that idea too,
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as somebody who presents at conferences
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regularly,
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who has talked around the country on
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different topics, religious trauma,
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neurodivergence,
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coaching and team dynamics.
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I've given, I don't know,
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I've been in the field for seventeen
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years.
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I've given a lot of talks on a
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lot of different topics.
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But
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I really like feedback.
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It's part of the reason that podcasting is
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a little unnatural to me.
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It's part of the reason that having a
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YouTube channel is not always my jam.
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I appreciate the space to have a creative
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outlet and I appreciate the guests on the
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podcast.
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But I like having guest episodes more than
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doing stuff myself because I like
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conversation.
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I like interacting with people.
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I love doing therapy.
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not as a prescriber who tells people how
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to fix things,
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but as somebody who joins with my clients
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in the room and gets to be a
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part of their journey for a little bit
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of their lives.
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That's a really cool thing.
00:08:16.110 --> 00:08:17.331
So I like the interaction.
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Even when I'm doing song reviews or
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talking about a piece of media,
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I'm responding to this other entity that
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feels more conversational than just like,
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let me offer you a lecture.
00:08:28.139 --> 00:08:30.021
So I am gonna read you my paper.
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really long preamble short which is not
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conversational but uh the paper is written
00:08:35.985 --> 00:08:38.327
in a way that is designed to uh
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elicit response and is designed as again a
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conversation starter so i thought that
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might be interesting to read and then um
00:08:47.014 --> 00:08:49.017
look at me working ahead i'll be at
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the conference the week that this episode
00:08:51.958 --> 00:08:53.399
comes out and then i'll be able to
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record an episode after the conference to
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sort of
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have hopefully thoughts.
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I'm just planning on that for content for
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the week.
00:09:01.245 --> 00:09:02.445
Hopefully some thoughts and some good
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things that I can engage with and share
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with you all as part of what we
00:09:07.966 --> 00:09:09.986
were able to co-create,
00:09:10.006 --> 00:09:11.607
what we were able to dialogue about,
00:09:11.648 --> 00:09:15.188
what we were able to engage in relational
00:09:15.269 --> 00:09:15.769
understanding.
00:09:16.809 --> 00:09:19.630
So,
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the title of my conversation starter is
00:09:23.172 --> 00:09:25.472
Questioning the Utility of Religion as a
00:09:25.533 --> 00:09:26.312
Moral Arbiter.
00:09:27.932 --> 00:09:29.432
Religion is often treated as a kind of
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moral shortcut.
00:09:30.734 --> 00:09:32.255
Public life, policy debates,
00:09:32.316 --> 00:09:33.616
and even everyday conversations,
00:09:33.697 --> 00:09:35.399
religion is assumed to offer ethical
00:09:35.458 --> 00:09:37.660
clarity, something stable, trustworthy,
00:09:37.721 --> 00:09:38.640
and above dispute.
00:09:39.662 --> 00:09:41.943
Appeals to tradition, transcendence,
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or divine mandate frequently insulate
00:09:43.706 --> 00:09:45.466
religious institutions from the kinds of
00:09:45.527 --> 00:09:46.989
moral scrutiny applied elsewhere.
00:09:47.568 --> 00:09:47.950
And yet,
00:09:48.110 --> 00:09:49.331
when we look closely at history and
00:09:49.350 --> 00:09:50.272
contemporary practice,
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a different picture emerges.
00:09:52.092 --> 00:09:53.433
Organized religion has repeatedly
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functioned less as a guide to ethical
00:09:55.015 --> 00:09:55.255
living.
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and more as a mechanism for legitimizing
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power.
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This paper is not an attempt to arrive
00:10:01.298 --> 00:10:02.801
at a final verdict on religion.
00:10:03.105 --> 00:10:03.525
Instead,
00:10:03.625 --> 00:10:05.966
it is offered as an invitation to question
00:10:06.027 --> 00:10:07.847
why religion continues to be positioned as
00:10:07.888 --> 00:10:09.888
a moral arbiter despite overwhelming
00:10:09.967 --> 00:10:11.589
evidence of ethical contradiction.
00:10:12.208 --> 00:10:14.029
I'm interested in what happens when moral
00:10:14.049 --> 00:10:15.409
authority is assumed rather than
00:10:15.450 --> 00:10:16.091
negotiated,
00:10:16.510 --> 00:10:18.370
and in how that assumption produces harm
00:10:18.530 --> 00:10:19.951
that is later individualized and
00:10:19.991 --> 00:10:20.871
pathologized.
00:10:21.513 --> 00:10:22.732
My central claim is simple.
00:10:23.113 --> 00:10:24.754
Many forms of religious harm are better
00:10:24.793 --> 00:10:27.335
understood as systemic moral injury rather
00:10:27.434 --> 00:10:28.554
than personal failure.
00:10:29.587 --> 00:10:30.969
I come to this question as a therapist
00:10:30.989 --> 00:10:32.089
who works with religious trauma.
00:10:32.330 --> 00:10:33.590
The stakes of this conversation are
00:10:33.610 --> 00:10:34.650
visible in the therapy room.
00:10:35.191 --> 00:10:37.072
I regularly sit with people who are taught
00:10:37.111 --> 00:10:38.692
to understand their spiritual distress as
00:10:38.732 --> 00:10:41.274
a failure of faith, belief, or resilience.
00:10:41.794 --> 00:10:43.315
Their questions were framed as weakness,
00:10:43.456 --> 00:10:45.296
their ethical discomfort as temptation or
00:10:45.356 --> 00:10:45.636
sin.
00:10:46.177 --> 00:10:48.498
What becomes clear again and again is that
00:10:48.518 --> 00:10:49.899
the injury did not emerge because
00:10:49.918 --> 00:10:51.179
something went wrong inside the
00:10:51.200 --> 00:10:51.700
individual.
00:10:52.179 --> 00:10:53.780
The injury emerged because the moral
00:10:53.801 --> 00:10:56.022
system itself could not tolerate lived
00:10:56.162 --> 00:10:57.243
human experience.
00:10:58.695 --> 00:11:00.294
From a social constructionist perspective,
00:11:00.394 --> 00:11:01.495
this should not be surprising.
00:11:01.716 --> 00:11:03.515
Morality is not a fixed truth handed down
00:11:03.556 --> 00:11:04.176
by authority.
00:11:04.255 --> 00:11:05.755
It is something created, sustained,
00:11:05.816 --> 00:11:07.096
and revised in relationship.
00:11:08.256 --> 00:11:10.157
Meaning emerges through dialogue, context,
00:11:10.197 --> 00:11:11.238
and shared negotiation.
00:11:11.817 --> 00:11:13.618
When institutions insist on static moral
00:11:13.658 --> 00:11:15.538
certainty, they foreclose that process.
00:11:16.019 --> 00:11:17.458
Ethical dialogue is replaced with
00:11:17.499 --> 00:11:18.119
compliance,
00:11:18.239 --> 00:11:19.678
and conflict between doctrine and lived
00:11:19.719 --> 00:11:20.960
experience becomes not a site of
00:11:21.000 --> 00:11:23.039
curiosity, but a site of punishment.
00:11:23.620 --> 00:11:24.799
Through historical and contemporary
00:11:24.820 --> 00:11:25.259
examples,
00:11:25.299 --> 00:11:26.900
this paper explores how that dynamic
00:11:26.921 --> 00:11:27.880
produces moral injury
00:11:28.373 --> 00:11:30.076
and why decoupling morality from
00:11:30.136 --> 00:11:31.900
institutional religious authority is an
00:11:31.980 --> 00:11:32.962
ethical necessity.
00:11:34.860 --> 00:11:37.643
This conversation extends well beyond
00:11:37.682 --> 00:11:39.124
therapy or religious trauma work.
00:11:39.605 --> 00:11:41.086
Any social constructionist inquiry
00:11:41.125 --> 00:11:42.787
concerned with how meaning, legitimacy,
00:11:42.866 --> 00:11:44.388
and power are produced in relationship
00:11:44.427 --> 00:11:46.549
must grapple with religion as dominant
00:11:46.570 --> 00:11:49.072
meaning-making institution.
00:11:49.611 --> 00:11:51.354
Religious moral claims shape law,
00:11:51.653 --> 00:11:52.475
economic behavior,
00:11:52.615 --> 00:11:53.755
cultural identity norms,
00:11:53.975 --> 00:11:54.816
and social belonging.
00:11:55.317 --> 00:11:57.077
They often function as taken-for-granted
00:11:57.138 --> 00:11:58.840
truths rather than socially negotiated
00:11:58.879 --> 00:11:59.299
positions.
00:11:59.820 --> 00:12:00.841
From this standpoint,
00:12:01.020 --> 00:12:02.883
religion becomes a particularly revealing
00:12:02.923 --> 00:12:05.043
case study in how authoritative narratives
00:12:05.083 --> 00:12:06.004
stabilize themselves,
00:12:06.445 --> 00:12:07.806
marginalize alternative meanings,
00:12:07.926 --> 00:12:09.807
and resist relational accountability.
00:12:11.009 --> 00:12:12.750
Moral injury offers a useful lens here,
00:12:13.070 --> 00:12:15.331
typically defined as the psychological,
00:12:15.451 --> 00:12:15.932
relational,
00:12:16.111 --> 00:12:17.393
and spiritual harm that arises when
00:12:17.432 --> 00:12:18.833
individuals perpetrate, witness,
00:12:18.955 --> 00:12:22.456
or are subjected to actions that violate
00:12:22.476 --> 00:12:24.639
their deeply held moral values.
00:12:24.979 --> 00:12:26.820
Moral injury is often discussed in
00:12:26.860 --> 00:12:28.581
military or clinical contexts.
00:12:29.376 --> 00:12:31.178
But the concept applies just as powerfully
00:12:31.219 --> 00:12:32.460
to religious systems that require
00:12:32.539 --> 00:12:34.261
adherence to internalize ethical
00:12:34.302 --> 00:12:34.942
contradictions.
00:12:35.423 --> 00:12:37.164
When institutions claim moral authority
00:12:37.205 --> 00:12:38.166
while engaging in harm,
00:12:38.365 --> 00:12:39.788
individuals are left with impossible
00:12:39.827 --> 00:12:42.070
choices, suppress their moral intuitions,
00:12:42.390 --> 00:12:44.533
or experience themselves as defective.
00:12:45.748 --> 00:12:47.249
Religious institutions tend to resolve
00:12:47.269 --> 00:12:48.791
this tension by individualizing the
00:12:48.811 --> 00:12:49.110
injury.
00:12:49.451 --> 00:12:50.392
Doubt becomes weakness.
00:12:50.471 --> 00:12:51.493
Dissent becomes sin.
00:12:51.874 --> 00:12:53.455
Harm is reframed as a test of faith
00:12:53.514 --> 00:12:54.716
or a failure of obedience.
00:12:55.197 --> 00:12:55.657
In this way,
00:12:55.756 --> 00:12:58.480
systemic ethical failures are displaced
00:12:58.519 --> 00:12:59.961
onto individual bodies and psyches.
00:13:00.522 --> 00:13:02.283
The institution remains morally intact
00:13:02.322 --> 00:13:03.904
while the individual absorbs the damage.
00:13:04.365 --> 00:13:06.147
This is not an accidental byproduct of
00:13:06.187 --> 00:13:06.527
religion.
00:13:06.606 --> 00:13:08.229
It is a structural feature that allows
00:13:08.609 --> 00:13:10.730
moral authority to remain unquestioned.
00:13:12.042 --> 00:13:12.741
The papal bulls,
00:13:13.001 --> 00:13:15.883
Dum Diverus and Romanus the Pontifex,
00:13:16.583 --> 00:13:18.724
offer a stark historical example of
00:13:18.964 --> 00:13:20.404
religion functioning as moral
00:13:20.445 --> 00:13:21.784
infrastructure for domination.
00:13:22.446 --> 00:13:24.426
Issued by Pope Nicholas V,
00:13:24.885 --> 00:13:26.427
these decrees authorized Christian
00:13:26.466 --> 00:13:28.148
explorers to invade, conquer, enslave,
00:13:28.187 --> 00:13:29.908
and extract resources from non-Christian
00:13:29.947 --> 00:13:30.248
lands.
00:13:30.807 --> 00:13:31.288
Importantly,
00:13:31.369 --> 00:13:33.068
these actions were not framed as tragic
00:13:33.109 --> 00:13:33.668
necessities.
00:13:33.970 --> 00:13:35.470
They were presented as morally righteous
00:13:35.529 --> 00:13:37.610
endeavors carried out in service of divine
00:13:37.730 --> 00:13:37.890
order.
00:13:38.971 --> 00:13:40.731
Romanus Pontifex did more than permit
00:13:40.751 --> 00:13:41.192
violence.
00:13:41.351 --> 00:13:43.812
It redefined exploitation as moral good.
00:13:44.432 --> 00:13:46.033
Indigenous peoples were rendered morally
00:13:46.052 --> 00:13:48.394
invisible while simultaneously subjected
00:13:48.433 --> 00:13:49.433
to moralized violence.
00:13:50.014 --> 00:13:51.975
Ethical consideration was reserved for
00:13:52.014 --> 00:13:53.696
those within the religious in-group,
00:13:53.775 --> 00:13:55.416
while harm inflicted on others was
00:13:55.456 --> 00:13:56.557
sanctified through doctrine.
00:13:57.197 --> 00:13:58.657
From the perspective of moral injury,
00:13:58.697 --> 00:14:00.317
this represents a profound ethical
00:14:00.357 --> 00:14:00.717
rupture.
00:14:01.278 --> 00:14:02.798
The harm was not a deviation from
00:14:03.058 --> 00:14:03.818
religious values.
00:14:03.899 --> 00:14:05.178
It was an expression of them as
00:14:05.279 --> 00:14:06.720
institutionally constructive.
00:14:08.509 --> 00:14:09.912
The effects of this moral framing did not
00:14:10.072 --> 00:14:11.433
end with formal colonization.
00:14:11.553 --> 00:14:13.155
They continue through land dispossession,
00:14:13.235 --> 00:14:14.057
cultural erasure,
00:14:14.157 --> 00:14:16.200
and systems such as religious residential
00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:18.042
schools with minimal gestures towards
00:14:18.081 --> 00:14:20.144
accountability from either church or
00:14:20.325 --> 00:14:20.644
state.
00:14:21.405 --> 00:14:23.269
Religion in this context functioned not as
00:14:23.328 --> 00:14:24.009
moral compass,
00:14:24.269 --> 00:14:26.011
but as a moral laundering mechanism for
00:14:26.091 --> 00:14:26.493
empire.
00:14:27.418 --> 00:14:28.958
These dynamics are not confined to
00:14:29.019 --> 00:14:30.159
colonization practices.
00:14:30.519 --> 00:14:31.801
The Vatican's twenty twenty four
00:14:31.841 --> 00:14:34.883
declaration dignitas infinita offers a
00:14:34.923 --> 00:14:37.043
contemporary illustration of how ethical
00:14:37.104 --> 00:14:39.004
contradiction is embedded within organized
00:14:39.044 --> 00:14:39.385
religion.
00:14:39.926 --> 00:14:41.647
The document proclaims the inherent and
00:14:41.767 --> 00:14:43.488
infinite dignity of every human being,
00:14:43.807 --> 00:14:45.850
a claim that initially appears universally
00:14:46.070 --> 00:14:46.450
affirming.
00:14:47.113 --> 00:14:47.373
Yet,
00:14:47.753 --> 00:14:50.195
this assertion is immediately constrained
00:14:50.215 --> 00:14:52.035
by doctrinal positions that deny bodily
00:14:52.076 --> 00:14:54.677
autonomy to women and delegitimize trans
00:14:54.756 --> 00:14:55.937
and gender diverse identities.
00:14:56.538 --> 00:14:58.479
What emerges is a form of conditional
00:14:58.519 --> 00:14:58.958
dignity.
00:14:59.399 --> 00:15:01.260
Humanity is affirmed abstractly while
00:15:01.280 --> 00:15:02.321
denied relationally.
00:15:02.881 --> 00:15:04.501
Individuals who lived experiences fall
00:15:04.522 --> 00:15:06.903
outside doctrinal boundaries are told that
00:15:06.923 --> 00:15:09.085
their dignity exists only insofar as they
00:15:09.125 --> 00:15:10.546
suppress or reject their embodied
00:15:10.586 --> 00:15:11.066
realities.
00:15:11.874 --> 00:15:13.475
This produces moral injury by forcing
00:15:13.495 --> 00:15:14.756
people into false choices between
00:15:14.836 --> 00:15:16.798
self-recognition and moral belonging.
00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:18.520
A moral framework that requires
00:15:18.581 --> 00:15:20.482
self-erasure in order to access dignity
00:15:20.582 --> 00:15:22.784
cannot meaningfully be called ethical.
00:15:24.846 --> 00:15:26.609
Religious moral contradiction also appears
00:15:26.668 --> 00:15:28.630
in far more mundane and easily overlooked
00:15:28.791 --> 00:15:29.251
forms.
00:15:29.772 --> 00:15:30.873
The Church of Jesus Christ,
00:15:31.114 --> 00:15:31.854
Latter-day Saints,
00:15:32.818 --> 00:15:33.259
Mormonism,
00:15:33.479 --> 00:15:34.679
for y'all paying attention at home,
00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:36.519
provides a salient example.
00:15:36.960 --> 00:15:38.581
While presenting itself as moral authority
00:15:38.620 --> 00:15:40.341
grounded in family values, humility,
00:15:40.421 --> 00:15:41.302
and stewardship,
00:15:41.841 --> 00:15:43.621
the institution has accumulated enormous
00:15:43.662 --> 00:15:44.702
wealth and land holdings,
00:15:44.783 --> 00:15:46.143
making the church the second largest
00:15:46.202 --> 00:15:47.342
landowner in the United States.
00:15:47.743 --> 00:15:49.903
It operates simultaneously as a religious
00:15:49.943 --> 00:15:52.144
authority and a powerful corporate entity,
00:15:52.485 --> 00:15:54.325
shaping housing markets, zoning decisions,
00:15:54.384 --> 00:15:55.466
and regional economies.
00:15:56.285 --> 00:15:58.087
This accumulation of land is rarely framed
00:15:58.128 --> 00:15:59.609
as an ethical issue within religious
00:15:59.649 --> 00:16:00.089
discourse.
00:16:00.490 --> 00:16:00.809
Instead,
00:16:00.830 --> 00:16:02.571
it is justified through theological
00:16:02.611 --> 00:16:03.972
language of stewardship or divine
00:16:03.993 --> 00:16:04.413
provision.
00:16:05.014 --> 00:16:07.375
The material consequences of housing
00:16:07.416 --> 00:16:08.897
scarcity, wealth consolidation,
00:16:09.256 --> 00:16:10.899
and political influence are rendered
00:16:10.938 --> 00:16:14.120
morally invisible by the institution's
00:16:14.160 --> 00:16:15.582
presumed ethical legitimacy.
00:16:16.102 --> 00:16:18.404
Here, morality is to place by intent.
00:16:18.664 --> 00:16:20.226
Because the institution claims to be
00:16:20.267 --> 00:16:20.547
moral,
00:16:20.866 --> 00:16:22.528
its actions are insulated from moral
00:16:22.609 --> 00:16:22.969
scrutiny.
00:16:25.284 --> 00:16:27.087
Where moral scrutiny does exist is in
00:16:27.128 --> 00:16:29.130
publicized scandals where relational
00:16:29.150 --> 00:16:30.753
meaning, again, is pushed to the side.
00:16:30.833 --> 00:16:32.235
The Catholic Church has spent over five
00:16:32.296 --> 00:16:34.639
billion dollars in defense and settlements
00:16:34.779 --> 00:16:36.542
of abuse cases in the past two decades,
00:16:36.602 --> 00:16:38.365
while simultaneously spending millions to
00:16:38.404 --> 00:16:39.908
lobby against victim protection laws.
00:16:41.089 --> 00:16:43.471
The LDS, Latter Day Saints, Mormon Church,
00:16:43.650 --> 00:16:45.491
touted donating over one billion to
00:16:45.511 --> 00:16:45.873
charity,
00:16:46.013 --> 00:16:47.573
one billion dollars to charity in twenty
00:16:47.594 --> 00:16:48.033
twenty four,
00:16:48.835 --> 00:16:50.615
while being untaxed and worth nearly three
00:16:50.655 --> 00:16:51.177
hundred billion.
00:16:51.596 --> 00:16:52.857
They have spent roughly one billion
00:16:52.977 --> 00:16:54.759
dollars in defense and settlement of abuse
00:16:54.778 --> 00:16:55.139
cases,
00:16:55.220 --> 00:16:56.620
with an additional significant figure
00:16:56.640 --> 00:16:58.601
still pending a California court case.
00:16:59.263 --> 00:17:00.844
With a new cult documentary each week,
00:17:00.903 --> 00:17:02.345
scrutiny of religious institution gains
00:17:02.365 --> 00:17:04.247
cultural awareness while the organization
00:17:04.287 --> 00:17:05.887
circle their wagons and continue to hold
00:17:05.968 --> 00:17:07.108
places of privilege.
00:17:08.628 --> 00:17:10.209
When lived experience is subordinated
00:17:10.249 --> 00:17:10.670
doctrine,
00:17:10.730 --> 00:17:12.769
moral dialogue collapses into compliance.
00:17:13.130 --> 00:17:14.730
Questioning the moral framework itself
00:17:14.750 --> 00:17:15.671
becomes transgressive,
00:17:15.770 --> 00:17:17.731
making ethical repair nearly impossible.
00:17:18.051 --> 00:17:20.353
From a constructionist lens,
00:17:20.792 --> 00:17:22.472
religious trauma emerges not as failed
00:17:22.512 --> 00:17:22.913
belief,
00:17:22.952 --> 00:17:25.134
but as expected relational rupture.
00:17:25.554 --> 00:17:26.914
This rupture can be understood as harm
00:17:26.934 --> 00:17:28.575
produced when moral systems refuse to
00:17:28.634 --> 00:17:30.496
evolve in response to human realities
00:17:30.615 --> 00:17:32.816
exacerbated by the intentional protection
00:17:32.915 --> 00:17:34.497
of authority over people.
00:17:36.082 --> 00:17:38.044
Reframing religious trauma as systemic
00:17:38.084 --> 00:17:39.663
moral injury has important implications
00:17:39.683 --> 00:17:40.684
beyond religion itself.
00:17:41.204 --> 00:17:42.685
It challenges therapeutic models that
00:17:42.746 --> 00:17:44.686
pathologize doubt, ethical discomfort,
00:17:44.747 --> 00:17:46.008
or departure from belief systems.
00:17:46.468 --> 00:17:47.969
It also challenges professional ethics
00:17:47.989 --> 00:17:49.549
that valorize neutrality in the face of
00:17:49.609 --> 00:17:49.910
harm.
00:17:50.390 --> 00:17:51.631
If morality is relational,
00:17:51.730 --> 00:17:53.352
ethical practice requires responsiveness
00:17:53.372 --> 00:17:55.313
to power, context, and lived experience.
00:17:55.732 --> 00:17:57.153
Silence or neutrality in the presence of
00:17:57.213 --> 00:17:58.835
systemic moral injury is not ethical
00:17:58.875 --> 00:18:00.195
restraint, it is complicity.
00:18:01.290 --> 00:18:03.011
Rather than offering replacement moral
00:18:03.051 --> 00:18:03.451
authority,
00:18:03.492 --> 00:18:05.094
this paper invites a different orientation
00:18:05.173 --> 00:18:05.673
altogether.
00:18:06.034 --> 00:18:07.795
Morality, from a relational standpoint,
00:18:07.875 --> 00:18:09.596
must remain open, dialogical,
00:18:09.676 --> 00:18:10.998
and accountable to those it affects.
00:18:11.357 --> 00:18:12.919
De-censoring religious institutions as
00:18:12.979 --> 00:18:14.460
moral arbiters does not produce moral
00:18:14.500 --> 00:18:14.940
chaos.
00:18:15.441 --> 00:18:17.241
It creates the possibility for ethics
00:18:17.321 --> 00:18:18.942
grounded in relationship rather than
00:18:19.002 --> 00:18:20.003
hierarchy.
00:18:20.884 --> 00:18:22.285
If my communication here is clear,
00:18:22.665 --> 00:18:24.186
my aim is not persuading readers to agree
00:18:24.207 --> 00:18:25.146
with a single conclusion.
00:18:25.307 --> 00:18:27.608
My hope is to open space for conversation
00:18:27.828 --> 00:18:29.569
about how moral authority is constructed,
00:18:29.769 --> 00:18:30.611
whom it serves,
00:18:31.075 --> 00:18:32.796
What kinds of harm become possible when
00:18:32.816 --> 00:18:34.278
morality is removed from relational
00:18:34.397 --> 00:18:38.361
accountability?
00:18:38.421 --> 00:18:41.123
Finn.
00:18:41.143 --> 00:18:42.544
That didn't make great content for the
00:18:42.564 --> 00:18:43.223
YouTube channel.
00:18:45.165 --> 00:18:46.366
Works great for podcasting.
00:18:46.406 --> 00:18:48.307
I've never felt so much like an e-book
00:18:49.048 --> 00:18:52.652
narrator than this episode because I
00:18:52.791 --> 00:18:54.853
sometimes write an outline,
00:18:55.614 --> 00:18:57.234
which is like three random thoughts on a
00:18:57.255 --> 00:18:57.796
sheet of paper.
00:18:59.997 --> 00:19:00.617
So yeah, I mean,
00:19:01.383 --> 00:19:01.623
Again,
00:19:01.942 --> 00:19:03.282
it's a different type of paper than
00:19:03.423 --> 00:19:04.663
something I would write to be published in
00:19:04.703 --> 00:19:07.144
a journal or what I would have done
00:19:07.844 --> 00:19:11.005
in any of my schooling,
00:19:11.025 --> 00:19:12.625
which would have required citations and a
00:19:12.664 --> 00:19:13.365
bunch of other stuff.
00:19:13.724 --> 00:19:15.526
I do drop some facts and figures in
00:19:15.586 --> 00:19:17.546
there without trying to make it a
00:19:17.605 --> 00:19:18.905
scientific paper.
00:19:20.247 --> 00:19:21.767
It is true that the Mormon Church is
00:19:21.866 --> 00:19:24.948
the second largest landholder in the
00:19:24.968 --> 00:19:25.688
United States.
00:19:27.978 --> 00:19:28.258
You know,
00:19:28.337 --> 00:19:30.319
and there's a lot of things that like
00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:31.560
Jeremy,
00:19:31.621 --> 00:19:33.883
the person who works in religious trauma,
00:19:34.923 --> 00:19:36.084
Jeremy, the person is also Jeremy,
00:19:36.124 --> 00:19:36.664
the therapist,
00:19:36.744 --> 00:19:38.707
but there's some things that I would have
00:19:38.747 --> 00:19:41.067
probably written differently if I was
00:19:41.189 --> 00:19:42.308
depending on the audience.
00:19:42.368 --> 00:19:42.609
Right.
00:19:42.730 --> 00:19:44.590
And so highlighting like moral
00:19:44.631 --> 00:19:45.471
contradictions,
00:19:46.172 --> 00:19:47.413
the Mormon church requires,
00:19:47.534 --> 00:19:50.536
requires in order to be a member in
00:19:50.576 --> 00:19:51.376
good standing,
00:19:51.797 --> 00:19:55.200
a ten percent tithe of what you what
00:19:55.220 --> 00:19:55.559
you make.
00:19:56.258 --> 00:19:58.319
and so members of the mormon church are
00:19:58.339 --> 00:20:00.800
required like the mormon church has access
00:20:00.840 --> 00:20:02.563
to people's bank accounts so that they can
00:20:02.583 --> 00:20:04.044
withdraw that tithe because it's
00:20:04.183 --> 00:20:07.865
non-negotiable um and yet they're worth
00:20:07.905 --> 00:20:09.468
three hundred billion and gave a billion
00:20:09.488 --> 00:20:11.709
to charity that's not a ten percent tithe
00:20:11.828 --> 00:20:14.851
is it right like so um even just
00:20:14.871 --> 00:20:16.712
the double standard of like what what
00:20:16.732 --> 00:20:18.054
accountability is expected for the
00:20:18.114 --> 00:20:20.335
institution versus the person i think
00:20:20.855 --> 00:20:22.817
broadens the scope of the point i was
00:20:22.856 --> 00:20:23.538
trying to make
00:20:24.478 --> 00:20:26.459
But I was trying to not be super...
00:20:26.479 --> 00:20:28.900
I was intentionally trying to not be super
00:20:29.040 --> 00:20:29.760
anti-religion.
00:20:31.741 --> 00:20:33.663
Because, again, in the same...
00:20:34.742 --> 00:20:38.545
I think organized religion is harmful.
00:20:38.565 --> 00:20:40.506
Because organized religion is inherently
00:20:40.705 --> 00:20:42.907
hierarchical and based on in-group,
00:20:42.968 --> 00:20:43.647
out-group dynamics.
00:20:45.449 --> 00:20:46.730
I think there's a lot of woo-woo
00:20:46.769 --> 00:20:48.590
spirituality that is...
00:20:53.115 --> 00:20:56.435
won't say just as harmful uh because i
00:20:56.455 --> 00:20:57.856
i struggle to think of institutions that
00:20:57.876 --> 00:21:00.137
have done more harm than organized
00:21:00.157 --> 00:21:03.439
religion but um people who say they're not
00:21:03.479 --> 00:21:06.259
religious but they're spiritual i see harm
00:21:06.299 --> 00:21:08.800
there too right i work with religious
00:21:08.820 --> 00:21:10.622
trauma so i see cult survivors people have
00:21:10.642 --> 00:21:14.623
been harmed abused and taken advantage of
00:21:14.742 --> 00:21:17.124
in in various ways from the wellness
00:21:17.144 --> 00:21:18.565
community from the
00:21:20.548 --> 00:21:24.309
disorganized wellness spiritual but not
00:21:24.349 --> 00:21:28.192
religious sort of spaces right like um not
00:21:28.412 --> 00:21:31.192
having a institutional body like the
00:21:31.232 --> 00:21:34.673
catholic church or the lds or scientology
00:21:34.894 --> 00:21:38.875
or whatever it is um doesn't insulate you
00:21:38.915 --> 00:21:42.656
from perpetuating harm i'm not suggesting
00:21:43.258 --> 00:21:45.939
the organization is the problem suggesting
00:21:45.959 --> 00:21:48.480
the organization is what prohibits it from
00:21:48.519 --> 00:21:49.019
being helpful
00:21:51.655 --> 00:21:53.837
morality is defined by ancient scriptures
00:21:53.938 --> 00:21:56.138
has to, by definition, be dogmatic.
00:21:57.240 --> 00:21:58.080
And one of the things that I like
00:21:58.101 --> 00:21:58.921
about this symposium,
00:21:58.941 --> 00:22:00.782
one of the things that I like wearing
00:22:01.022 --> 00:22:03.065
with the Taoist Institute in general is
00:22:03.545 --> 00:22:05.425
that relationality is really centered.
00:22:05.465 --> 00:22:07.428
And so when we look at what cultures
00:22:07.468 --> 00:22:10.990
did before writing things down,
00:22:11.971 --> 00:22:13.932
oral histories were really common across
00:22:14.073 --> 00:22:14.873
different cultures.
00:22:15.134 --> 00:22:15.354
And
00:22:18.512 --> 00:22:21.413
fascination infatuation me too i like
00:22:21.453 --> 00:22:24.513
evidence-based practice um our our
00:22:24.673 --> 00:22:26.453
experience that writing things down and
00:22:26.493 --> 00:22:29.535
keeping record of things improves accuracy
00:22:30.634 --> 00:22:35.316
but also limits contextualization um facts
00:22:35.355 --> 00:22:38.457
and data outside of context don't mean a
00:22:38.517 --> 00:22:40.936
lot one of my favorite favorite favorite
00:22:40.957 --> 00:22:42.757
pieces of media that comes out every year
00:22:42.777 --> 00:22:45.857
that's kind of niche uh matt berry not
00:22:46.423 --> 00:22:47.683
of what we do in the shadows but
00:22:47.703 --> 00:22:49.486
the fantasy football analyst matt berry
00:22:50.247 --> 00:22:53.308
although matt berry of what we do in
00:22:53.328 --> 00:22:55.131
the shadows fame would be very funny doing
00:22:55.270 --> 00:22:56.653
fantasy football analysis
00:22:58.176 --> 00:23:01.940
would uh he writes a piece um on
00:23:01.960 --> 00:23:04.221
statistics and it's it's a hundred facts
00:23:04.241 --> 00:23:05.843
to know before the season starts and he
00:23:05.863 --> 00:23:09.205
basically writes fifty facts and he writes
00:23:09.346 --> 00:23:11.528
them in two different ways so his hundred
00:23:11.567 --> 00:23:15.391
facts are uh uh fifty groups fifty couples
00:23:15.691 --> 00:23:18.354
of facts about the same player one of
00:23:18.374 --> 00:23:19.374
them makes the player sound really
00:23:19.413 --> 00:23:20.855
desirable and somebody should draft and
00:23:20.895 --> 00:23:22.096
one of them makes the player sound really
00:23:22.136 --> 00:23:22.416
bad
00:23:22.901 --> 00:23:24.021
And like someone you should avoid.
00:23:24.163 --> 00:23:24.262
And,
00:23:24.462 --> 00:23:26.144
and the reason he writes this every year
00:23:26.204 --> 00:23:28.528
is just highlight that you can make
00:23:28.728 --> 00:23:29.489
statistics.
00:23:29.528 --> 00:23:32.432
You can tell a story with statistics that
00:23:32.753 --> 00:23:34.635
don't capture the entire reality.
00:23:34.695 --> 00:23:35.576
And so statistics,
00:23:35.616 --> 00:23:37.640
facts and data accuracy,
00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:40.884
the written record of what happened, um,
00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:42.641
might be accurate,
00:23:42.820 --> 00:23:45.123
but also not particularly valid in
00:23:45.143 --> 00:23:46.123
whatever you're trying to do.
00:23:46.544 --> 00:23:48.224
When we look at good research,
00:23:48.244 --> 00:23:49.905
it's both accurate and reliable.
00:23:50.406 --> 00:23:55.150
It is something that the metaphor that you
00:23:55.190 --> 00:23:56.691
learn in research methods,
00:23:56.730 --> 00:23:59.472
sort of psych one-on-one level stuff here
00:23:59.512 --> 00:24:00.513
is if it's a dartboard,
00:24:00.634 --> 00:24:03.096
it is all three darts you throw are
00:24:03.696 --> 00:24:05.357
hitting near to the same spot.
00:24:05.438 --> 00:24:06.179
It is accurate.
00:24:08.672 --> 00:24:09.853
it's valid you're hitting what you're
00:24:09.893 --> 00:24:12.394
trying to hit right and so you're aiming
00:24:12.413 --> 00:24:14.055
for the bullseye you have three darts in
00:24:14.075 --> 00:24:17.856
the bullseye that's good data um if you
00:24:17.896 --> 00:24:20.738
have three darts that are clustered really
00:24:20.778 --> 00:24:22.138
close together but you dropped them by
00:24:22.159 --> 00:24:24.099
your feet well like that that's not good
00:24:24.940 --> 00:24:28.261
right and so uh you you can manipulate
00:24:28.301 --> 00:24:28.882
and people do
00:24:30.002 --> 00:24:32.104
manipulate facts and data to sell a story.
00:24:32.364 --> 00:24:33.483
And we're storytelling creatures.
00:24:33.523 --> 00:24:36.704
And so while oral histories and passed
00:24:36.724 --> 00:24:41.246
down verbal traditions may be affected by
00:24:41.365 --> 00:24:42.787
lived experience and context,
00:24:43.146 --> 00:24:46.248
that's also what most written scriptures
00:24:46.327 --> 00:24:46.788
were, right?
00:24:48.407 --> 00:24:49.628
Like they're still affected by the
00:24:49.669 --> 00:24:50.148
context.
00:24:50.169 --> 00:24:52.368
They're not sort of like more accurate
00:24:52.388 --> 00:24:52.888
because of that.
00:24:52.949 --> 00:24:54.549
Again, like scriptures as
00:24:55.939 --> 00:24:59.759
fairy tales uh not not being overtly
00:25:00.220 --> 00:25:03.500
offensive here just this like fanciful
00:25:03.520 --> 00:25:06.681
stories that contain a moral truth but
00:25:06.701 --> 00:25:08.000
like that's not all that scripture is
00:25:08.060 --> 00:25:10.402
right that's why when it becomes dogmatic
00:25:10.442 --> 00:25:11.862
because it's written down and therefore to
00:25:11.902 --> 00:25:13.923
go off what is written it becomes dramatic
00:25:13.962 --> 00:25:16.103
and more harmful whereas oral histories
00:25:16.163 --> 00:25:18.884
can be updated and adjusted that may
00:25:18.923 --> 00:25:20.384
diminish their accuracy
00:25:21.284 --> 00:25:23.724
and make them more valid and reliable to
00:25:23.765 --> 00:25:25.444
current lived experience and so you can
00:25:25.545 --> 00:25:30.145
update a culture a community's ethics
00:25:30.486 --> 00:25:33.046
based on current lived experience and like
00:25:34.207 --> 00:25:36.787
i think that that ethic that is relational
00:25:36.967 --> 00:25:39.528
doesn't it it ideally is a both and
00:25:39.708 --> 00:25:42.387
it doesn't need to be authoritative and
00:25:42.428 --> 00:25:44.469
dogmatic that takes any relation away and
00:25:44.528 --> 00:25:45.689
it doesn't need to be one hundred percent
00:25:45.749 --> 00:25:47.348
relational without any sort of like
00:25:48.650 --> 00:25:50.769
empirical backing um
00:25:51.962 --> 00:25:56.105
empirical as in like numbers not empire so
00:25:56.567 --> 00:26:04.692
you know um yeah i i want i
00:26:04.732 --> 00:26:06.013
want to say i don't think people will
00:26:06.074 --> 00:26:07.694
disagree with what i wrote or the way
00:26:07.714 --> 00:26:09.656
i wrote it uh but you know in
00:26:09.777 --> 00:26:11.417
in my work as a religious trauma therapist
00:26:12.259 --> 00:26:14.220
um i certainly aware that sometimes it's
00:26:14.279 --> 00:26:15.980
easy for me to see the patterns and
00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:18.403
the harm uh in religion because i work
00:26:18.423 --> 00:26:21.105
with people who are harmed by religion and
00:26:21.486 --> 00:26:21.746
um
00:26:23.020 --> 00:26:24.928
It's not like I forget that religion has
00:26:25.008 --> 00:26:25.609
good parts.
00:26:25.770 --> 00:26:26.311
I'm just...
00:26:27.866 --> 00:26:29.047
I don't interact with that as much.
00:26:30.626 --> 00:26:32.508
And I see the good parts of organized
00:26:32.528 --> 00:26:34.807
religion as being available without the
00:26:34.847 --> 00:26:36.008
harmful pieces, right?
00:26:36.048 --> 00:26:38.229
So if religion does a really nice job
00:26:38.269 --> 00:26:39.509
of providing community for people,
00:26:39.548 --> 00:26:41.828
but like we could have community if we
00:26:41.868 --> 00:26:43.990
had other third spaces that were in the
00:26:44.009 --> 00:26:46.269
same financial position as churches,
00:26:46.309 --> 00:26:48.191
which is like untaxed property,
00:26:48.371 --> 00:26:51.070
untaxed donations,
00:26:51.151 --> 00:26:53.730
like giving a leg up on providing
00:26:53.790 --> 00:26:56.192
community for people without money being a
00:26:56.231 --> 00:26:56.632
factor.
00:26:57.560 --> 00:26:58.942
make a world of difference then i think
00:26:58.961 --> 00:27:00.602
you don't need the dogma of an organized
00:27:00.642 --> 00:27:03.202
religion to provide that community and so
00:27:03.603 --> 00:27:05.624
community in the church is there because
00:27:05.644 --> 00:27:07.644
of the church's privileged status not
00:27:07.664 --> 00:27:10.246
because the church provides community that
00:27:10.266 --> 00:27:12.326
couldn't be provided elsewhere so again i
00:27:12.467 --> 00:27:13.967
mean it's it's not that i forget that
00:27:13.987 --> 00:27:15.448
there are people who experience the church
00:27:15.508 --> 00:27:17.949
positively and well it's just that i sort
00:27:17.989 --> 00:27:19.910
of am at a position in my career
00:27:19.930 --> 00:27:22.810
where i can say yes and that could
00:27:22.851 --> 00:27:24.711
exist without any of the religious stuff
00:27:25.551 --> 00:27:25.711
so
00:27:27.875 --> 00:27:30.336
other than a fear of dying and having
00:27:30.356 --> 00:27:32.838
some sort of afterlife story that we get
00:27:32.858 --> 00:27:34.159
to tell our brains is relieving.
00:27:34.839 --> 00:27:36.861
I get that.
00:27:36.881 --> 00:27:38.240
I'm not somebody who ascribes to that,
00:27:38.642 --> 00:27:39.041
obviously,
00:27:39.162 --> 00:27:40.742
in the way I couched that phrase.
00:27:40.762 --> 00:27:46.045
So yeah, I'm super stoked.
00:27:46.726 --> 00:27:48.707
There's a bunch of really interesting
00:27:48.747 --> 00:27:49.807
sounding conversation starters.
00:27:50.126 --> 00:27:52.969
I am one of many conversation starters in
00:27:52.989 --> 00:27:55.130
the group, which is a really cool,
00:27:55.549 --> 00:27:56.691
really diverse group of
00:27:57.611 --> 00:27:59.152
Professionals from different professional
00:27:59.192 --> 00:27:59.672
backgrounds,
00:27:59.692 --> 00:28:01.373
from different lived experiences.
00:28:01.432 --> 00:28:04.375
There's one, Awaking, it's called Wash,
00:28:04.914 --> 00:28:06.596
Awaking Community at the Wash Line.
00:28:08.837 --> 00:28:10.239
A Sufi perspective on collaborative
00:28:10.278 --> 00:28:11.558
dialogic practices.
00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:15.842
Reimagining knowledge from a socially,
00:28:15.902 --> 00:28:17.742
culturally attuned perspective.
00:28:18.384 --> 00:28:20.045
Leading through social construction.
00:28:20.724 --> 00:28:22.766
Relational risk and radical care in
00:28:22.826 --> 00:28:23.646
fostering.
00:28:24.547 --> 00:28:26.407
Practicing radical presence in a pressured
00:28:26.488 --> 00:28:26.929
world.
00:28:29.115 --> 00:28:31.136
students' experiences impact their sense
00:28:31.156 --> 00:28:32.436
of belonging to university.
00:28:35.337 --> 00:28:37.858
A couple things about borders and
00:28:37.959 --> 00:28:38.699
framework.
00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:42.059
Listening beyond words,
00:28:42.099 --> 00:28:43.381
challenging the limits we create.
00:28:44.840 --> 00:28:46.561
So there's more.
00:28:46.981 --> 00:28:47.622
There's a bunch more.
00:28:47.761 --> 00:28:48.122
Look at me.
00:28:48.561 --> 00:28:50.242
I'm still scrolling to the bottom.
00:28:52.103 --> 00:28:53.703
So yeah, I mean, just a flavor.
00:28:53.763 --> 00:28:55.304
It's, I think, I don't know.
00:28:55.963 --> 00:28:57.525
By the time this goes out,
00:28:59.813 --> 00:29:01.173
It'll be two days before the symposium
00:29:01.212 --> 00:29:01.492
starts.
00:29:01.773 --> 00:29:02.433
But I think it's full.
00:29:03.134 --> 00:29:03.473
I don't know.
00:29:03.814 --> 00:29:04.973
I don't want to limit their sales,
00:29:05.013 --> 00:29:06.434
but I'm not doing this as a marketing
00:29:06.454 --> 00:29:06.634
thing.
00:29:06.654 --> 00:29:08.515
I'm sort of doing this as a, hey,
00:29:08.575 --> 00:29:08.875
y'all,
00:29:08.955 --> 00:29:11.096
I have a fairly consistent listener base.
00:29:11.135 --> 00:29:12.797
So come along with me while I do
00:29:12.836 --> 00:29:13.856
some of the things that I do
00:29:13.896 --> 00:29:14.537
professionally,
00:29:14.656 --> 00:29:17.278
as opposed to just straight up content
00:29:17.317 --> 00:29:18.298
creation all the time.
00:29:18.317 --> 00:29:21.939
So yeah, I'm excited.
00:29:21.979 --> 00:29:23.240
I'm excited to meet some people who I
00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:26.079
know virtually in person.
00:29:27.040 --> 00:29:28.260
Call me old fashioned.
00:29:29.834 --> 00:29:30.354
But I like that.
00:29:30.694 --> 00:29:32.596
I like to do therapy in person versus
00:29:32.635 --> 00:29:33.236
telehealth.
00:29:33.355 --> 00:29:35.537
I offer telehealth because I also live in
00:29:35.557 --> 00:29:37.417
the world that I have kids and a
00:29:37.518 --> 00:29:39.159
car that doesn't always work and whatever
00:29:39.219 --> 00:29:39.818
else comes up.
00:29:42.220 --> 00:29:43.800
So I understand it's a necessary
00:29:44.040 --> 00:29:44.701
practicality,
00:29:44.741 --> 00:29:46.563
but I like to do therapy in person.
00:29:47.163 --> 00:29:50.464
I prefer the dynamics and the interaction
00:29:50.484 --> 00:29:52.586
to get live in person versus on a
00:29:52.645 --> 00:29:52.905
screen.
00:29:54.570 --> 00:29:55.451
So a lot of people who have known
00:29:55.471 --> 00:29:56.432
for a couple of years, I'll get to,
00:29:56.612 --> 00:29:57.632
not a lot, several of them,
00:29:58.272 --> 00:29:59.452
I'll get to interact with.
00:29:59.512 --> 00:30:01.953
Sheila McNamee has been on the podcast in
00:30:01.973 --> 00:30:02.753
early episode,
00:30:02.974 --> 00:30:05.214
like within my first thirty episodes.
00:30:05.255 --> 00:30:06.056
It's a pretty good get.
00:30:06.135 --> 00:30:11.258
I had some surprisingly famous in their
00:30:11.397 --> 00:30:14.138
worlds people early on in the podcast,
00:30:14.598 --> 00:30:16.680
which remains a mystery to me.
00:30:17.632 --> 00:30:18.313
But Sheila McNamee,
00:30:18.432 --> 00:30:20.173
she had COVID when I recorded with her.
00:30:20.273 --> 00:30:21.654
I don't think that is in the recording.
00:30:21.835 --> 00:30:23.316
A little peek behind the screen here.
00:30:24.876 --> 00:30:25.337
But yes,
00:30:25.538 --> 00:30:27.058
I did get to interview her back in
00:30:27.078 --> 00:30:27.259
the day.
00:30:27.278 --> 00:30:30.821
And she's like one of my professional
00:30:30.862 --> 00:30:34.743
heroes between her and Harleen and Ken
00:30:34.763 --> 00:30:36.365
Gergen and some of the other big names
00:30:36.566 --> 00:30:37.807
in the social constructionist
00:30:37.926 --> 00:30:39.968
collaborative language spaces.
00:30:40.909 --> 00:30:43.089
Ken Gergen will be there, pretty sure.
00:30:45.830 --> 00:30:46.851
So some people I know online,
00:30:46.891 --> 00:30:48.612
some people who professionally have had an
00:30:48.652 --> 00:30:49.451
impact on me.
00:30:50.852 --> 00:30:51.592
And some people I don't know.
00:30:52.673 --> 00:30:54.532
As the therapist, it's always surprising.
00:30:55.653 --> 00:30:56.653
And I'm hyperbolic.
00:30:56.794 --> 00:30:58.794
So I say things like I don't like
00:30:58.854 --> 00:31:00.513
people because I'm an introvert.
00:31:00.815 --> 00:31:02.394
And that's true.
00:31:04.075 --> 00:31:05.675
And meeting new people gives me,
00:31:06.036 --> 00:31:08.395
because I'm an introvert and I'm autistic
00:31:08.435 --> 00:31:10.156
but also made HD, I'm very contrarian.
00:31:12.489 --> 00:31:14.069
I like to meet new people and there's
00:31:14.089 --> 00:31:14.670
a lot of dopamine.
00:31:14.710 --> 00:31:16.451
And I know some very cool people in
00:31:16.530 --> 00:31:18.191
the area, New York City.
00:31:18.270 --> 00:31:19.291
And again, I've just never been out there.
00:31:19.311 --> 00:31:20.152
So I'll get to meet some of those
00:31:20.192 --> 00:31:21.992
people in person outside of the Taoist
00:31:22.012 --> 00:31:23.653
community who I just know from either like
00:31:23.693 --> 00:31:25.134
religious trauma spaces or whatever.
00:31:25.835 --> 00:31:28.715
So excited, excited to go out there.
00:31:28.855 --> 00:31:30.797
I have experienced New York City through
00:31:30.936 --> 00:31:32.717
Spider-Man and Spider-Man two on the
00:31:32.737 --> 00:31:33.298
PlayStation.
00:31:33.917 --> 00:31:35.719
So I feel like I have navigated New
00:31:35.759 --> 00:31:38.019
York via web slinging before,
00:31:38.099 --> 00:31:40.540
but it will be my first experience with...
00:31:41.221 --> 00:31:43.442
The East Coast subway system.
00:31:45.084 --> 00:31:45.704
Which is cool.
00:31:45.765 --> 00:31:47.185
Plan to do Central Park for sure.
00:31:47.226 --> 00:31:48.987
Planning to do the Empire State Building
00:31:49.007 --> 00:31:49.647
for sure.
00:31:50.588 --> 00:31:51.388
Not sure what else I'm going to do
00:31:51.409 --> 00:31:51.690
out there.
00:31:51.970 --> 00:31:53.371
Get some pizza, I guess,
00:31:53.471 --> 00:31:55.071
is the other big thing that I'm definitely
00:31:55.092 --> 00:31:55.653
planning to do.
00:31:55.673 --> 00:31:57.394
I'm not like a Times Square person.
00:31:57.634 --> 00:32:02.417
That sounds lame and oddly
00:32:02.458 --> 00:32:03.338
overstimulating.
00:32:03.920 --> 00:32:04.119
So...
00:32:06.387 --> 00:32:06.827
Not that.
00:32:07.128 --> 00:32:08.209
When I go visit places,
00:32:08.249 --> 00:32:08.970
I like to like,
00:32:09.671 --> 00:32:11.432
I don't mind like the touristy hit the
00:32:11.451 --> 00:32:12.011
hotspots,
00:32:12.051 --> 00:32:13.553
but I do like to sort of like
00:32:14.294 --> 00:32:16.576
go where the locals go per se,
00:32:16.996 --> 00:32:19.037
as it were, to like experience that.
00:32:19.458 --> 00:32:20.018
I try,
00:32:20.137 --> 00:32:21.378
my brain likes to get in the headset
00:32:21.398 --> 00:32:22.559
of like, what if I lived here?
00:32:23.740 --> 00:32:25.402
So yeah,
00:32:25.781 --> 00:32:28.865
pretty excited for all of that stuff.
00:32:29.345 --> 00:32:30.445
Not excited to fly.
00:32:31.715 --> 00:32:32.596
I'm six foot three,
00:32:32.797 --> 00:32:35.159
and airplanes were not designed with my
00:32:35.219 --> 00:32:36.180
size in mind.
00:32:38.382 --> 00:32:42.224
But I did, because it's a work thing,
00:32:43.006 --> 00:32:47.009
pay for nonstop flights, which is nice.
00:32:49.090 --> 00:32:50.932
So yeah, some cool stuff coming up.
00:32:50.991 --> 00:32:52.554
I'm excited for the conference.
00:32:52.834 --> 00:32:54.996
I'm optimistic that I will have some good
00:32:55.596 --> 00:32:57.278
learnings to share with y'all.
00:32:58.018 --> 00:32:59.960
after the conference i'm sure even though
00:33:00.099 --> 00:33:02.141
i sort of made fun of workshop uh
00:33:02.401 --> 00:33:04.923
conferences as like a way for people to
00:33:04.942 --> 00:33:06.463
sell their books i'm sure i will have
00:33:06.663 --> 00:33:09.066
new cool connections people i'm like
00:33:09.666 --> 00:33:11.268
expecting i'll have a bunch of guests
00:33:11.327 --> 00:33:13.910
lined up for the podcast not scheduled
00:33:13.930 --> 00:33:16.310
because i'm not going to pull out my
00:33:16.330 --> 00:33:17.471
phone when i'm talking to a person be
00:33:17.491 --> 00:33:18.772
like hey when can you be on my
00:33:18.833 --> 00:33:19.534
podcast
00:33:20.316 --> 00:33:21.836
Because I hate that,
00:33:21.896 --> 00:33:22.757
which is why I said it in a
00:33:22.797 --> 00:33:23.357
silly voice.
00:33:24.337 --> 00:33:25.919
But a bunch of the Taoist people are
00:33:25.939 --> 00:33:26.898
already on my radar.
00:33:27.019 --> 00:33:30.540
I have like a guest sheet stored somewhere
00:33:30.601 --> 00:33:32.741
of like people to get on the podcasts.
00:33:33.843 --> 00:33:34.883
Seventy people long.
00:33:36.544 --> 00:33:38.244
I just don't like scheduling things.
00:33:38.785 --> 00:33:40.486
But I do have guests lined up,
00:33:41.186 --> 00:33:42.807
which will also be exciting after the
00:33:42.846 --> 00:33:43.407
conference.
00:33:43.548 --> 00:33:43.688
So.
00:33:45.140 --> 00:33:48.342
Hooray for, as I say, for humanity,
00:33:48.382 --> 00:33:49.522
but I don't really feel that.
00:33:49.863 --> 00:33:51.624
Hooray for cool people doing cool work.
00:33:55.105 --> 00:33:57.227
Yay.
00:33:57.247 --> 00:33:59.567
That's what I got for you this week.
00:34:01.690 --> 00:34:04.171
And next week, come back for part two.
00:34:06.612 --> 00:34:07.692
If you want to.
00:34:09.371 --> 00:34:12.934
um and then you know like subscribe leave
00:34:13.355 --> 00:34:15.836
reviews i don't know i'm having a weird
00:34:15.876 --> 00:34:18.318
viral moment on the the interwebs so
00:34:19.019 --> 00:34:22.181
perhaps if you also uh do those review
00:34:22.222 --> 00:34:24.585
type things more people will find my work
00:34:24.864 --> 00:34:27.487
which is cool i'm not internet famous by
00:34:27.507 --> 00:34:28.608
any stretch of the imagination i'm not
00:34:28.628 --> 00:34:29.489
going to go to new york and have
00:34:29.509 --> 00:34:30.309
people recognize me
00:34:31.835 --> 00:34:33.356
but it is always one of those weird
00:34:34.416 --> 00:34:36.518
algorithmic things that I really detest
00:34:36.557 --> 00:34:38.239
about the modern internet that are quirky
00:34:38.278 --> 00:34:40.579
and weird and sometimes something will pop
00:34:40.699 --> 00:34:45.541
off and it's silly in a way,
00:34:46.362 --> 00:34:48.824
but it's also part of why I do
00:34:49.364 --> 00:34:51.264
the podcast is to meet new people and
00:34:51.324 --> 00:34:51.744
network,
00:34:52.626 --> 00:34:53.505
but part of it is to put out
00:34:53.525 --> 00:34:54.166
good information.
00:34:55.126 --> 00:34:57.047
In a world that is filled with Joe
00:34:57.068 --> 00:34:58.688
Rogan and Jordan Peterson and Andrew
00:34:58.708 --> 00:34:59.088
Tate's
00:35:01.635 --> 00:35:06.259
It's not on that level of reach,
00:35:06.338 --> 00:35:08.699
but I see fifteen people a week physically
00:35:08.760 --> 00:35:12.583
in my office and get hundreds of downloads
00:35:15.244 --> 00:35:16.144
on stuff like YouTube.
00:35:16.565 --> 00:35:18.166
And the podcast is pretty consistent in
00:35:18.186 --> 00:35:19.047
that range as well.
00:35:19.126 --> 00:35:20.887
So, you know,
00:35:21.628 --> 00:35:23.469
more people tune in and can engage with
00:35:23.489 --> 00:35:24.751
me here than I can engage with in
00:35:24.791 --> 00:35:25.251
my office.
00:35:25.411 --> 00:35:26.331
And so that's good, too.
00:35:26.851 --> 00:35:29.393
So anyway, long plug.
00:35:30.942 --> 00:35:33.403
Rate, like, subscribe, tell a friend.
00:35:36.967 --> 00:35:38.327
And if you're on the East Coast,
00:35:39.128 --> 00:35:40.648
I won't see you in New York because
00:35:40.949 --> 00:35:42.090
too short a notice.
00:35:42.590 --> 00:35:43.672
But if you're on the East Coast,
00:35:44.211 --> 00:35:46.173
a very dear collaborator of mine,
00:35:46.213 --> 00:35:46.833
Emily Lopley,
00:35:46.873 --> 00:35:48.534
she's been on the podcast three different
00:35:48.574 --> 00:35:48.936
times.
00:35:50.257 --> 00:35:51.797
And I are hosting a retreat in the
00:35:51.858 --> 00:35:54.179
Boston, outside of Boston.
00:35:55.025 --> 00:35:59.110
in the Boston metro area in the woods
00:35:59.170 --> 00:36:00.130
by the ocean.
00:36:00.692 --> 00:36:01.952
It's a lovely location.
00:36:02.534 --> 00:36:03.855
It's called Rest and Return,
00:36:03.954 --> 00:36:05.556
a weekend for soft landings.
00:36:06.257 --> 00:36:11.824
Emily is a social worker who's been in
00:36:11.844 --> 00:36:13.905
the profession for nearly two decades,
00:36:14.045 --> 00:36:15.146
more than two decades.
00:36:16.286 --> 00:36:17.927
I don't know how old she is.
00:36:18.327 --> 00:36:19.327
I'm bad at that game.
00:36:20.710 --> 00:36:22.490
Has a ton of experience,
00:36:23.070 --> 00:36:26.954
is also a trauma center,
00:36:27.014 --> 00:36:28.835
trauma-sensitive yoga instructor,
00:36:29.757 --> 00:36:31.418
in that she leads trauma-sensitive yoga
00:36:31.478 --> 00:36:33.418
and also teaches other instructors.
00:36:33.840 --> 00:36:35.981
So she has a wealth of knowledge,
00:36:36.362 --> 00:36:38.163
somebody who practices a lot of
00:36:38.724 --> 00:36:41.045
trauma-informed work and somatic stuff,
00:36:41.465 --> 00:36:43.166
very aligned with me in how we both
00:36:43.186 --> 00:36:43.967
like to practice.
00:36:44.827 --> 00:36:48.170
coming from a lens of relational trauma,
00:36:48.210 --> 00:36:49.771
of intergenerational trauma,
00:36:51.733 --> 00:36:54.554
and that helping isn't just talk therapy,
00:36:54.594 --> 00:36:56.717
but it's also our environment,
00:36:56.757 --> 00:36:58.838
our physical space that we occupy,
00:36:58.998 --> 00:37:00.418
and our physical bodies.
00:37:00.639 --> 00:37:02.521
And so if that is of interest to
00:37:02.561 --> 00:37:05.063
you, that is in Boston in May.
00:37:06.583 --> 00:37:07.643
That'll be in the show notes.
00:37:08.164 --> 00:37:09.385
If you want more information about that,
00:37:09.445 --> 00:37:11.085
you can check that out in the show
00:37:11.125 --> 00:37:11.364
notes.
00:37:11.385 --> 00:37:12.425
If you want more information about Emily,
00:37:12.445 --> 00:37:14.746
I also have a plug there in the
00:37:14.766 --> 00:37:15.286
show notes.
00:37:15.786 --> 00:37:16.626
Really long preamble.
00:37:17.327 --> 00:37:17.927
Postamble?
00:37:18.766 --> 00:37:21.327
What's the word for epilogue?
00:37:21.807 --> 00:37:22.987
But it's not really an epilogue.
00:37:23.288 --> 00:37:23.648
Outro.
00:37:23.927 --> 00:37:24.188
I don't know.
00:37:24.628 --> 00:37:25.547
Anyway, I'm babbling.
00:37:25.688 --> 00:37:26.248
Let's get out of here.
00:37:26.389 --> 00:37:28.509
Y'all, thanks for tuning in.
00:37:28.949 --> 00:37:31.510
Come back next week and the week after.
00:37:31.769 --> 00:37:33.429
I appreciate all of you.
00:37:34.050 --> 00:37:34.650
Take care of yourself.
00:37:34.690 --> 00:37:35.530
Take care of somebody else.
00:37:35.670 --> 00:37:35.990
Peace.