Your Therapist Needs Therapy 142 - Movement, Performance, and Meaning-Making with Mario Ismael Espinoza

Jeremy gets to chat this week with extremely talented Mario Ismael Espinoza. Mario shares their journey from being a professional dancer to moving into social work, and blending body movement and mental health. Jeremy and Mario talk about some of the similarities and differences of dance and sports performance which also covers some of our thoughts on identity formation and transformation. We also chat about meaning-making and spirituality, not coming from a place of scarcity, but from authenticity and connection. 

To learn more about Mario and their work, head over to miespinoza.com or find their work with the Entertainment Community Fund. 

As always, Jeremy has all his practice info at Wellness with Jer, and you can find him on Instagram and YouTube. To show your love for the show you can pick up some merch! We appreciate support from likes, follows, and shares as well! None of my online work would be possible without my media maven Kenny, so check out their work as well at kenlingdesign.com

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Podcasts about therapy do not replace actual therapy, and listening to a podcast about therapy does not signify a therapeutic relationship.If you or someone you know is in crisis please call or text the nationwide crisis line at 988, or text HELLO to 741741. The Trevor Project has a crisis line for LGBTQ+ young people that can be reached by texting 678678.

Transcript

Hello,

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and welcome to another edition of Your

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Therapist Needs a Therapy,

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a podcast where two mental health

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professionals talk about their mental

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health journeys and how they navigate

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mental wellness while working in the

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mental health field.

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I'm your host, Jeremy Schumacher,

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licensed marriage family therapist.

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I have a therapy guest today that I'm

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super stoked to talk with.

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I saw them

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at a symposium recently.

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If you are a regular listener,

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I talked about the symposium a month and

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a half ago,

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and this therapist was one of the

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collaborators to the keynote,

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which was really awesome.

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Today,

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I am joined by Mario Ismael Espinoza.

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Mario.

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My internet is somehow just glitched,

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and I heard you introduce me,

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and I don't know if you asked a

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question or if you just want me to

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say hi.

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Just saying hi, just introducing you.

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Welcome.

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Thanks for taking the time.

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Thank you.

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Thank you for having me here.

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I'm looking forward to our conversation.

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I just added the preamble that I got

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to see you at the symposium in New

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York.

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And so that was where we first connected.

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So not someone in my local community,

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but out on the East Coast doing therapy

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out there.

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For all of my guests,

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I start with the same question,

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which is how is it that you came

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to be in the mental health field?

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Okay, cool.

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Do you want the long story or the

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medium story?

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Yeah, whichever.

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Okay, cool.

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I guess I'll start with the medium story.

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So my previous career was in the

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performing arts.

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I was a professional contemporary ballet

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dancer for greater part of my youth and

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adulthood, young adulthood, I guess.

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And the company that I danced before I

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retired from the stage was a dance company

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that did a lot of community outreach and

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community engagement.

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And that community engagement took us to

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the Central Valley of California,

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where we were working with incarcerated

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youth.

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And that was...

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Yeah, as a dancer,

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going into high security facilities with

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adolescents was really impactful.

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I was in my early thirties when we

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were going to do movement workshops with

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incarcerated youth,

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and I was faced with a lot of

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adolescents that looked a lot like me.

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Everybody was

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I would say,

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ninety-nine percent of the incarcerated

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youth were Hispanic or Mexican immigrants,

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Latinx.

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I don't know what terminology they would

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use to identify themselves,

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but they looked a lot like me.

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I'm a shorter brown person with dark skin

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and dark hair.

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And so that was really hard.

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That was really hard work.

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As a dancer,

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I went in there in my dance clothes,

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feeling really jazzed.

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And I saw these youth looking at me

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like,

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what are you doing here?

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Like, what are you, what's all of this,

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you know,

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fancy footwork you're trying to do.

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But yeah,

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to stick to the mediums version of the

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story, it was really impactful.

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It was really impactful.

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And following the workshops,

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we had to go and put on our

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makeup and clothes and dance and perform.

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And the transition was really hard as you

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can imagine.

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Um, emotionally, spiritually,

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psychologically,

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it was really tough to go from working

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with these folks to performing for their

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parents who were free and able to attend.

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And I was like, Ooh, there is no,

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unfortunately the people that were

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supporting us as dancers,

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we're not able to support our transition,

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that transition.

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And that's what sort of became my calling.

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I was like, Oh,

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I want to be able to support dancers,

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artists,

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that are doing really tough work and I

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wanna work on,

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I wanna be there for that transition when

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they're doing something and then they go

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on the stage.

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And now I'm basically doing supporting

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dancers that they make similar

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transitions,

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but from the stage to off the stage.

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And so we can get into more of

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the weeds of that if you want,

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but that's how I came to the mental

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health field.

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It was those experiences that informed me

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that I wanted to be part of dancers

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lives.

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Was that something that was throughout

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your career as a dancer or was that

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something you came to later,

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something you sort of stumbled your way

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into?

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How did that sort of come about?

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The knowing that I wanted to do social

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work in the field of mental health.

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Yeah,

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and I guess like doing some of those

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workshops and having different people who

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you were working with that you were like,

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oh, hey, there's a need here.

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Yeah, I think it was,

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it became apparent as I was approaching,

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as I quickly approached the end of my

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performance career.

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I also at that time,

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so we did these workshops for many years

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and I didn't know that that's something

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that I was gonna be called to do

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until towards the end of my career.

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And that also coincided with me starting

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to see a therapist for support,

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not related to that career transition

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But then, yeah,

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I worked with an LCSW and I was

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like, oh, social workers can do therapy,

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cool.

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And then I was like, oh,

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social workers in the carceral system and

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social workers in the mental health

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system.

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And I was like, oh, there's the bridge,

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you know?

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Yeah, yeah.

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I'm putting you on the spot here.

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What in your experience is sort of the

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idea around mental health in the dance

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community?

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I come from a parallel but different

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background in sports psych,

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and it really is, you know,

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you get those sort of old macho toughness,

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rub some dirt on it types.

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And when I was working in sports psych,

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sort of seeing the shift where mental

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health became really important and valued

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in the sports sort of world,

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I'm wondering sort of what's the vibe

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around mental health in the dance

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community?

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I'll speak from my experience and the

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population that I work with.

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And, you know,

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dance is such a huge field and there's

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so many different styles of dance and

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every style and genre of dance has its

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own culture, right?

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Because the ballet world has a different

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culture than the modern contemporary world

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and has a different culture from the

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street dance and hall dance.

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You know,

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so like dance is the biggest umbrella

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that we can probably use today,

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probably parallel to mental health, right?

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So I work specifically with like stage

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performers that include like ballet,

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you know,

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folks that dance in a proscenium stage and

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also people that perform like musical

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theater,

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dancers that work in musical theater.

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So this is the small population that I

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work with.

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And

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You know what I can say about where

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we're at,

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because I am part of that community,

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where we're at in terms of mental health,

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it's still not seen as preventative

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services.

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And that's, that's,

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that's the mountain that I'm like trying

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to climb right now.

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I'm like,

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how do I get folks to remember that

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mental health is also preventative

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medicine?

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You know,

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how do I get folks to come to

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me before they need me?

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How do I get folks to like seek

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out, um, yeah, assistance before,

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before things hit that crisis, you know,

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mode.

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Um, so yeah,

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that's how I can answer that question.

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Yeah.

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Is that, again,

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speaking from your experience,

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is that a shift from when you started

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dance as a younger person earlier in your

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career, sort of where it was seen?

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Totally.

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I don't remember ever considering,

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like the first time I heard about therapy

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was in college because the coolest person

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that I know was like, oh,

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I'm going to go see my therapist.

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And I was like,

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only cool people see therapy.

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I'm not cool enough to see a therapist

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yet.

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And so, yeah, you know,

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the seventeen years that I performed

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there,

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mental health was not something we were

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talking about.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I feel similar to that playing sports in

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college myself in the mid two thousands,

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like nobody was talking about mental

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health.

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Like it just wasn't,

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I was a psych student, right.

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I knew I was going to go to

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therapy, but nobody was talking about it.

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And in that other world,

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I was a piece of where, um,

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You know, then in the late twenty tens,

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even working in higher ed, for sure,

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working with like young college students,

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the fact that we were talking about mental

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health and

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Trying to do some preventative care was

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like a big perk for especially the

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parents,

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I would say more than the athletes

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themselves.

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The parents were like, oh, nice,

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you're doing mental health that will

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benefit my kid.

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Maybe more than buy in was from the

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athletes themselves.

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But then the culture of athletes and

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coaches and the people who are actually on

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teams,

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I found to still be sort of I'll

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say a little behind the times,

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depending on the sport, especially.

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Mm hmm.

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Yeah, I get that.

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don't know a ton about dance other than

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like i saw black swan when it came

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out and i you know there's that idea

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of like and that's just part of what

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you do and you're supposed to sort of

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power through so is that i assume that's

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an oversimplification of sort of the

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culture

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It is,

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and it does touch on a lot of

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different themes that are based in the

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dancer's lived experience,

00:10:04.000 --> 00:10:07.241
but it certainly is a flattened out

00:10:08.322 --> 00:10:10.102
theatrical version.

00:10:10.163 --> 00:10:10.783
But yeah,

00:10:10.842 --> 00:10:12.523
there's definitely some interesting themes

00:10:12.783 --> 00:10:14.443
that we could discuss if you want.

00:10:15.864 --> 00:10:16.163
Actually,

00:10:16.203 --> 00:10:18.024
I would be really interested to talk about

00:10:18.245 --> 00:10:19.264
the overlap between

00:10:20.306 --> 00:10:20.546
You know,

00:10:20.586 --> 00:10:22.768
sports psychology and like dancer

00:10:22.788 --> 00:10:24.629
psychology, even though you don't have,

00:10:25.150 --> 00:10:26.351
and again, this is like,

00:10:26.532 --> 00:10:27.633
this is probably not going to happen in

00:10:27.673 --> 00:10:28.374
my lifetime,

00:10:28.413 --> 00:10:29.754
but if I had several lifetimes,

00:10:29.835 --> 00:10:32.677
I probably would like begin that journey

00:10:32.738 --> 00:10:35.400
of like, I don't know,

00:10:35.441 --> 00:10:37.903
creating or collaborating with others to

00:10:37.942 --> 00:10:39.504
create a field of mental health

00:10:39.544 --> 00:10:41.086
specifically for dancers because

00:10:42.389 --> 00:10:44.412
As dancers, we start a lot of the,

00:10:44.572 --> 00:10:44.812
you know,

00:10:45.533 --> 00:10:48.475
fortunate and privileged dancers that have

00:10:48.495 --> 00:10:50.476
a professional career start really young.

00:10:51.018 --> 00:10:52.519
They start in their formative years.

00:10:52.538 --> 00:10:54.080
Some folks start as early as six.

00:10:54.620 --> 00:10:56.201
My sister has a child who started at

00:10:56.261 --> 00:10:57.023
two and a half.

00:10:57.744 --> 00:11:00.405
And so like their whole developmental,

00:11:00.666 --> 00:11:00.966
you know,

00:11:01.815 --> 00:11:03.897
process takes place in front of a mirror,

00:11:04.638 --> 00:11:06.679
you know, like, so there's so much there.

00:11:06.720 --> 00:11:08.601
And so I would love and yeah,

00:11:08.621 --> 00:11:09.604
I would love to see a few,

00:11:09.663 --> 00:11:11.645
I would love to see the field, like,

00:11:12.265 --> 00:11:14.869
recognize and acknowledge that the lived

00:11:14.908 --> 00:11:17.893
experience of a dancer is different than

00:11:17.932 --> 00:11:18.192
like,

00:11:20.197 --> 00:11:21.317
I'm thinking about the populations that I

00:11:21.337 --> 00:11:23.058
work with, singers, dancers, actors,

00:11:23.499 --> 00:11:24.038
musicians.

00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:27.461
The dancer's mind works so different,

00:11:27.520 --> 00:11:28.802
even though there's a lot of overlap,

00:11:28.822 --> 00:11:30.462
but there's some very specific messaging

00:11:30.503 --> 00:11:32.203
that we get as dancers.

00:11:32.323 --> 00:11:32.964
And for that reason,

00:11:33.024 --> 00:11:34.164
I think it'd be great if we could

00:11:34.225 --> 00:11:35.585
specialize specifically with this

00:11:35.605 --> 00:11:36.206
population.

00:11:37.145 --> 00:11:37.285
Well,

00:11:37.666 --> 00:11:40.388
I have to imagine part of your work

00:11:40.648 --> 00:11:43.789
is when your body is injured or breaking

00:11:43.830 --> 00:11:44.169
down.

00:11:45.269 --> 00:11:47.610
because when I would get referrals for

00:11:47.711 --> 00:11:49.432
athletes is almost always when they were

00:11:49.552 --> 00:11:49.893
injured.

00:11:50.352 --> 00:11:51.413
There's a huge component of

00:11:51.494 --> 00:11:52.953
performance-based stuff,

00:11:52.974 --> 00:11:54.735
so when you're not playing well.

00:11:55.576 --> 00:11:57.037
But a lot of it is...

00:11:58.166 --> 00:12:00.768
movement that structure practice being

00:12:00.788 --> 00:12:02.769
with your your team being with your

00:12:02.808 --> 00:12:04.649
coaches your mentors as part of your

00:12:04.690 --> 00:12:06.030
mental health and when you're hurt you

00:12:06.071 --> 00:12:08.692
can't do that and then your mental health

00:12:08.732 --> 00:12:11.134
crashes because you're used to having the

00:12:11.173 --> 00:12:12.654
structure that isn't there anymore and

00:12:12.674 --> 00:12:14.056
you're used to the support system that

00:12:14.076 --> 00:12:16.076
isn't there anymore but i think big

00:12:16.096 --> 00:12:17.758
difference i would imagine again not

00:12:17.778 --> 00:12:19.219
working with a ton of dancers former

00:12:19.259 --> 00:12:21.159
dancers who then played volleyball which

00:12:21.179 --> 00:12:21.780
is what i coach

00:12:24.201 --> 00:12:26.802
But different than sport is dance is also

00:12:26.861 --> 00:12:27.503
performance.

00:12:27.682 --> 00:12:29.842
And so it's not win or lose.

00:12:29.883 --> 00:12:31.043
It's not a competition.

00:12:31.224 --> 00:12:33.465
It's you are controlling a lot more.

00:12:33.605 --> 00:12:36.686
And so your performance is really up to

00:12:36.706 --> 00:12:37.966
you in a way that I think the

00:12:37.985 --> 00:12:39.485
sports world is a little bit more,

00:12:40.567 --> 00:12:41.947
we'll get them next time champ.

00:12:42.366 --> 00:12:44.207
Because sometimes a team that's better

00:12:44.248 --> 00:12:44.628
than you,

00:12:44.648 --> 00:12:45.687
there are variables that are outside of

00:12:45.707 --> 00:12:46.229
your control,

00:12:46.288 --> 00:12:47.889
where I imagine with dance are more

00:12:48.288 --> 00:12:50.769
hyper-focused on performance.

00:12:52.653 --> 00:12:53.033
Yeah,

00:12:53.193 --> 00:12:54.855
I'll just like plug in there that I

00:12:54.916 --> 00:12:56.777
run a support group for intro dancers

00:12:57.317 --> 00:12:57.918
quarterly.

00:12:58.899 --> 00:12:59.719
And yeah,

00:12:59.759 --> 00:13:01.441
the community element of it is super

00:13:01.500 --> 00:13:02.140
important.

00:13:03.422 --> 00:13:06.625
And when you were talking about maybe what

00:13:06.644 --> 00:13:07.565
differentiates,

00:13:08.426 --> 00:13:09.647
I guess my mind stayed on what

00:13:09.667 --> 00:13:12.089
differentiates an athlete from a

00:13:12.129 --> 00:13:12.989
performing artist,

00:13:13.470 --> 00:13:15.530
even the performing artist we are

00:13:15.571 --> 00:13:17.793
advocating to be recognized as athletes.

00:13:18.113 --> 00:13:19.374
But I think that there's a benefit to

00:13:19.394 --> 00:13:19.875
keeping us

00:13:20.716 --> 00:13:21.037
you know,

00:13:21.157 --> 00:13:22.638
I think that we want to be identified

00:13:22.677 --> 00:13:24.238
as athletes because they make so much more

00:13:24.278 --> 00:13:25.739
money than we do and because they get

00:13:25.778 --> 00:13:27.438
so much respect and admiration than

00:13:27.479 --> 00:13:28.078
dancers do.

00:13:28.600 --> 00:13:29.840
But I think that there's a really great

00:13:29.860 --> 00:13:33.000
benefit of owning and grounding ourselves

00:13:33.061 --> 00:13:34.261
in our identity as dancers.

00:13:35.422 --> 00:13:37.342
I think that a part that becomes really

00:13:37.383 --> 00:13:40.464
challenging that might be a little bit

00:13:40.504 --> 00:13:41.724
different is the age part.

00:13:41.744 --> 00:13:44.125
Like dancers have to retire or you find

00:13:44.164 --> 00:13:46.005
dancers retiring at a much younger age.

00:13:46.025 --> 00:13:46.905
So our

00:13:47.847 --> 00:13:50.289
span of our career is really jammed into

00:13:50.669 --> 00:13:53.773
you know very few years and that as

00:13:53.812 --> 00:13:57.254
you know like the uh the the recovery

00:13:57.294 --> 00:13:59.057
process from an injury whether it's a

00:13:59.096 --> 00:14:02.418
sprain or a broken limb or something it's

00:14:02.759 --> 00:14:06.763
it's it's like incredibly slow and our

00:14:06.802 --> 00:14:10.004
career go by goes by so fast and

00:14:10.326 --> 00:14:11.907
that's one of the things that i find

00:14:12.868 --> 00:14:14.688
is one of the biggest challenges right for

00:14:14.769 --> 00:14:15.750
performing artists is

00:14:17.067 --> 00:14:19.188
the the having to slow down at a

00:14:19.249 --> 00:14:23.629
speed of plant growth chaotic in the world

00:14:23.649 --> 00:14:27.110
that moves super fast well and starting so

00:14:27.130 --> 00:14:29.292
young right and so not having a fully

00:14:29.312 --> 00:14:30.793
developed brain you're having these

00:14:30.832 --> 00:14:33.173
different developmental milestones while

00:14:34.234 --> 00:14:35.774
this is a huge part of your identity

00:14:35.975 --> 00:14:39.316
and then that identity ends early if your

00:14:39.395 --> 00:14:41.395
career is is so short what do you

00:14:41.456 --> 00:14:43.697
do when what you've devoted your life to

00:14:43.817 --> 00:14:45.857
ends in your mid to early twenties

00:14:47.619 --> 00:14:48.019
Well,

00:14:48.659 --> 00:14:51.041
I think that that's one of the things

00:14:51.081 --> 00:14:53.143
that us mental health providers can,

00:14:53.964 --> 00:14:55.524
and I encourage mental health providers to

00:14:55.585 --> 00:14:59.126
consider is to maybe explore that more

00:14:59.206 --> 00:15:00.008
because I think

00:15:02.072 --> 00:15:03.413
specifically the identity part,

00:15:04.273 --> 00:15:06.595
when you name that our identity ends with

00:15:06.634 --> 00:15:10.918
our career, I think that that's a big,

00:15:11.038 --> 00:15:12.820
it leaves a lot of room for a

00:15:12.940 --> 00:15:14.081
lot of mental health issues.

00:15:14.761 --> 00:15:15.101
You know,

00:15:15.241 --> 00:15:17.624
I'm a forty four year old person and

00:15:17.683 --> 00:15:19.284
I will always identify as a dancer,

00:15:19.345 --> 00:15:20.785
even if I never step on that stage

00:15:20.826 --> 00:15:21.106
again,

00:15:21.246 --> 00:15:23.128
even if I never take a ballet class

00:15:23.207 --> 00:15:26.630
or dance class again, because it made me,

00:15:26.931 --> 00:15:27.871
it informs my work.

00:15:28.011 --> 00:15:30.212
ethic it reforms my it informs my body

00:15:30.232 --> 00:15:32.234
dysmorphia it informs so many different

00:15:32.293 --> 00:15:34.695
things that that i can't get rid of

00:15:34.735 --> 00:15:35.875
so it's always going to be part of

00:15:35.914 --> 00:15:38.676
my identity does that do you see that

00:15:38.716 --> 00:15:40.537
though because again i worked at college

00:15:40.636 --> 00:15:42.597
age students who were not going to go

00:15:42.618 --> 00:15:44.918
pro and so when i saw them that

00:15:44.937 --> 00:15:47.139
was the end of their sports career and

00:15:47.679 --> 00:15:50.179
depending on the sport started playing

00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:51.441
when they're four or five years old

00:15:51.480 --> 00:15:53.442
basketball baseball some of those sports

00:15:53.461 --> 00:15:56.222
start real young specialize in it

00:15:57.184 --> 00:15:58.265
Play at a high level and then it's

00:15:58.306 --> 00:15:58.546
done.

00:16:00.047 --> 00:16:00.667
And then like what?

00:16:00.687 --> 00:16:02.008
And again,

00:16:02.048 --> 00:16:03.509
not saying that that's how I identify

00:16:03.528 --> 00:16:03.908
those people,

00:16:03.928 --> 00:16:05.669
but like I got a lot of identity

00:16:05.710 --> 00:16:06.331
questions of like,

00:16:06.370 --> 00:16:09.552
what am I without this thing that I've

00:16:09.613 --> 00:16:12.594
done all the twenty years I've been alive?

00:16:13.235 --> 00:16:13.815
Yeah.

00:16:13.914 --> 00:16:15.115
And how did you address it?

00:16:18.436 --> 00:16:20.296
I think different for different people.

00:16:20.336 --> 00:16:23.037
Again, conveniently at the college level,

00:16:23.716 --> 00:16:25.216
there's always this next jumping off

00:16:25.297 --> 00:16:25.596
point.

00:16:25.976 --> 00:16:27.298
What's the next chapter?

00:16:27.738 --> 00:16:29.258
We're closing the chapter on college.

00:16:29.317 --> 00:16:29.918
What's next?

00:16:29.977 --> 00:16:31.778
And so there was often a natural

00:16:31.818 --> 00:16:32.418
transition.

00:16:32.979 --> 00:16:35.198
I think what was most difficult is when

00:16:35.818 --> 00:16:37.639
an athlete ended on an injury.

00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:40.340
It's their last year of eligibility or

00:16:40.360 --> 00:16:42.140
they're going to graduate and they tore

00:16:42.160 --> 00:16:43.760
their ACL and then like,

00:16:44.880 --> 00:16:46.682
then they're ending earlier than they

00:16:46.722 --> 00:16:47.663
expected to.

00:16:47.744 --> 00:16:49.625
And that sort of natural transition

00:16:49.644 --> 00:16:52.047
doesn't get to happen.

00:16:52.548 --> 00:16:56.311
I'm coaching and teaching and doing mental

00:16:56.350 --> 00:16:56.751
health.

00:16:56.871 --> 00:16:58.572
So we're saying like, it's okay.

00:16:59.053 --> 00:17:00.835
Everybody has these different identities.

00:17:00.894 --> 00:17:02.076
We're multiple.

00:17:03.777 --> 00:17:06.258
just because you're done playing.

00:17:06.298 --> 00:17:07.718
I played in college and I have never

00:17:07.758 --> 00:17:09.338
played more competitively than that.

00:17:09.618 --> 00:17:10.398
And I still play.

00:17:10.898 --> 00:17:12.420
So that doesn't mean you're done being an

00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:12.920
athlete.

00:17:13.019 --> 00:17:14.079
It just looks different.

00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:19.521
But I think those things that we as

00:17:19.582 --> 00:17:21.402
professionals in our various fields need

00:17:21.422 --> 00:17:23.323
to be aware of these kids who are

00:17:23.363 --> 00:17:25.242
specializing in a thing early in their

00:17:25.282 --> 00:17:25.903
development,

00:17:25.923 --> 00:17:27.804
like that does get deeply tied to their

00:17:27.864 --> 00:17:28.423
identity.

00:17:28.503 --> 00:17:31.244
And that can be really wonderful and

00:17:31.305 --> 00:17:31.744
lovely.

00:17:33.547 --> 00:17:35.146
or it could be really limiting if we

00:17:35.186 --> 00:17:36.688
don't expand upon that at all,

00:17:36.708 --> 00:17:38.248
if we're not intentional about how we're

00:17:38.307 --> 00:17:39.749
teaching some of that.

00:17:39.769 --> 00:17:42.409
I would say, and I think it's both,

00:17:42.429 --> 00:17:42.989
you know,

00:17:43.189 --> 00:17:45.549
it's a source of strength and it's also

00:17:46.049 --> 00:17:47.450
something that can be really limiting.

00:17:47.690 --> 00:17:49.070
And, and I think for that,

00:17:49.411 --> 00:17:50.471
and because of that reason,

00:17:50.570 --> 00:17:53.011
I believe it's really important to,

00:17:53.031 --> 00:17:54.832
to keep, to,

00:17:54.852 --> 00:17:59.012
I don't like the language that I'm going

00:17:59.032 --> 00:17:59.153
to use,

00:17:59.173 --> 00:18:00.513
but I'm going to use it anyway to

00:18:00.753 --> 00:18:02.513
maintain, to keep like, Oh,

00:18:03.648 --> 00:18:06.131
yeah,

00:18:06.171 --> 00:18:09.353
to stay in the ownership of that identity,

00:18:10.513 --> 00:18:17.538
only to draw out the strengths within

00:18:17.578 --> 00:18:17.980
that.

00:18:18.440 --> 00:18:20.320
Because if we lose it completely,

00:18:21.301 --> 00:18:23.002
or if we only see it as something

00:18:23.022 --> 00:18:23.763
that is limiting,

00:18:24.732 --> 00:18:25.834
Then we lose out, you know,

00:18:25.854 --> 00:18:27.394
we throw the baby out with the bathwater.

00:18:27.634 --> 00:18:29.556
And I think that this is the,

00:18:29.635 --> 00:18:30.817
that terminology I wanted to,

00:18:31.517 --> 00:18:32.817
I think that it also applies to our

00:18:32.857 --> 00:18:34.038
conversation about spirituality,

00:18:34.078 --> 00:18:35.380
which may happen another time.

00:18:35.759 --> 00:18:37.601
But I think that this throwing the baby

00:18:37.661 --> 00:18:40.643
out with the bathwater, you know,

00:18:40.722 --> 00:18:42.604
saying feels really appropriate when we

00:18:42.763 --> 00:18:43.765
get rid of an identity.

00:18:43.785 --> 00:18:45.185
We also lose a lot of the strengths

00:18:45.205 --> 00:18:46.126
that come with that.

00:18:47.106 --> 00:18:50.088
Or if we only see it as a

00:18:50.148 --> 00:18:51.069
limiting identity,

00:18:51.670 --> 00:18:53.111
then we're not seeing the whole of it.

00:18:54.130 --> 00:18:54.971
Yeah.

00:18:55.030 --> 00:18:55.431
Yeah.

00:18:55.530 --> 00:18:58.313
And I don't know.

00:18:58.792 --> 00:19:00.693
I'm guessing there's overlap.

00:19:01.815 --> 00:19:03.375
You can let me know your thoughts on

00:19:03.395 --> 00:19:03.536
this.

00:19:03.576 --> 00:19:06.057
But I think sports work really well for

00:19:06.117 --> 00:19:08.880
development because they teach us so many

00:19:08.920 --> 00:19:10.540
valuable lessons that we can use

00:19:10.560 --> 00:19:11.342
throughout our life.

00:19:11.402 --> 00:19:12.241
Like,

00:19:12.342 --> 00:19:14.243
it's a silly little game we're playing.

00:19:15.268 --> 00:19:17.489
And we learn so much about teamwork,

00:19:17.588 --> 00:19:19.269
interacting with other people,

00:19:19.430 --> 00:19:20.671
overcoming hardship,

00:19:20.691 --> 00:19:22.271
what our role is on a team.

00:19:22.432 --> 00:19:25.032
Like there's so much usable stuff that you

00:19:25.073 --> 00:19:26.954
can learn as a part of that community.

00:19:27.934 --> 00:19:28.255
Again,

00:19:28.315 --> 00:19:30.476
I think there's a really healthy outcome

00:19:30.496 --> 00:19:32.577
and I see lots of bad coaches and

00:19:32.617 --> 00:19:34.798
mentors who don't approach it that way,

00:19:34.939 --> 00:19:38.780
but it can be this really like grounding,

00:19:38.840 --> 00:19:40.362
really wonderful experience launching

00:19:40.442 --> 00:19:41.903
Offpoint for people into

00:19:43.275 --> 00:19:45.395
the plethora that is their adult identity.

00:19:46.936 --> 00:19:47.656
Yeah, totally.

00:19:47.757 --> 00:19:50.739
And I think for us as clinicians and

00:19:50.759 --> 00:19:52.638
therapists and people that walk with folks

00:19:52.679 --> 00:19:53.680
in their mental health journey,

00:19:55.068 --> 00:19:57.631
it gives us so many reference points,

00:19:57.750 --> 00:19:58.050
right?

00:19:58.090 --> 00:20:00.231
Like a person's relationship to their body

00:20:00.771 --> 00:20:02.993
is gonna be really largely informed by how

00:20:03.034 --> 00:20:04.173
they took care of it or how their

00:20:04.213 --> 00:20:05.934
body responded when they were young,

00:20:06.375 --> 00:20:06.556
right?

00:20:06.596 --> 00:20:08.317
And so that relationship with the body

00:20:08.356 --> 00:20:11.018
gets established really early and it

00:20:11.038 --> 00:20:12.179
continues to evolve,

00:20:12.199 --> 00:20:14.660
but sometimes the relationship to the body

00:20:14.680 --> 00:20:15.500
doesn't evolve.

00:20:15.560 --> 00:20:16.961
And so that makes it really,

00:20:17.422 --> 00:20:17.922
I don't know,

00:20:18.001 --> 00:20:20.483
I think it gives us again, a really,

00:20:22.768 --> 00:20:24.910
fertile like exploring ground as

00:20:24.950 --> 00:20:27.551
therapists to be like okay so tell me

00:20:27.592 --> 00:20:29.713
about your upbringing tell me how you what

00:20:29.894 --> 00:20:31.755
what did you learn about your body when

00:20:31.795 --> 00:20:33.236
you were an athlete how did you take

00:20:33.256 --> 00:20:35.178
care of it then how did it respond

00:20:35.557 --> 00:20:37.380
how is that different from how is that

00:20:37.420 --> 00:20:39.981
different now that you're a different age

00:20:40.061 --> 00:20:40.162
yeah

00:20:40.891 --> 00:20:41.431
Yeah.

00:20:41.490 --> 00:20:43.471
So how does that sort of work with

00:20:43.771 --> 00:20:46.732
the work you do now doing somatic based

00:20:46.772 --> 00:20:48.012
work, body based work?

00:20:48.073 --> 00:20:50.074
Like, is that a really easy,

00:20:50.114 --> 00:20:51.673
natural transition for a lot of your

00:20:51.693 --> 00:20:52.173
clients?

00:20:52.233 --> 00:20:54.795
Or is that like foreign territory because

00:20:54.835 --> 00:20:56.355
they're used to sort of using their body

00:20:56.476 --> 00:20:59.497
for a specific outcome?

00:20:59.557 --> 00:21:01.616
I think it varies, obviously,

00:21:01.636 --> 00:21:02.657
from person to person.

00:21:04.397 --> 00:21:06.638
One of the things that I find myself

00:21:07.461 --> 00:21:11.124
I don't know how this translates to

00:21:11.163 --> 00:21:14.925
sports, but dancers on stage,

00:21:14.986 --> 00:21:17.367
dancers in the rehearsal space are

00:21:17.387 --> 00:21:18.328
amazing.

00:21:18.409 --> 00:21:19.309
They're brilliant.

00:21:19.329 --> 00:21:20.269
They think quickly.

00:21:20.309 --> 00:21:21.270
They move quickly.

00:21:21.310 --> 00:21:24.532
They are able to change from fast to

00:21:24.613 --> 00:21:25.074
slow.

00:21:25.134 --> 00:21:26.734
They're incredibly versatile.

00:21:26.795 --> 00:21:29.017
They arrive on time,

00:21:29.057 --> 00:21:30.897
and they're so resourced.

00:21:31.621 --> 00:21:32.882
And as soon as they're injured and they're

00:21:32.902 --> 00:21:34.544
not on stage, they have no resources.

00:21:34.663 --> 00:21:36.205
All of those resources feel so

00:21:36.266 --> 00:21:37.326
inaccessible to them.

00:21:38.067 --> 00:21:40.529
And that feels like so much of the

00:21:40.589 --> 00:21:43.133
work that I do is reminding them and

00:21:43.173 --> 00:21:45.756
like reconnecting them with those

00:21:45.816 --> 00:21:47.037
resources that they have.

00:21:47.057 --> 00:21:47.958
Because when they're on stage,

00:21:47.978 --> 00:21:48.679
they're invincible.

00:21:49.038 --> 00:21:50.240
When dancers are performing,

00:21:50.921 --> 00:21:52.042
they will never reach out to me.

00:21:52.603 --> 00:21:55.526
it's only when they stop moving that that

00:21:55.586 --> 00:21:57.948
all of the things that felt possible when

00:21:57.968 --> 00:21:59.848
they were performing felt feel impossible

00:21:59.888 --> 00:22:01.490
so i'm like okay how do we get

00:22:01.590 --> 00:22:04.232
you how do we bring that like amazing

00:22:04.292 --> 00:22:07.035
celestial like you know embodied person

00:22:07.055 --> 00:22:09.217
from the stage out to the streets of

00:22:09.257 --> 00:22:14.181
new york yeah right yeah is that i've

00:22:14.201 --> 00:22:15.582
only been to new york the one time

00:22:15.662 --> 00:22:17.763
so this is more of a touristy question

00:22:17.824 --> 00:22:18.625
of me uh

00:22:19.989 --> 00:22:22.991
is there uh because there's so many

00:22:23.011 --> 00:22:26.536
different ways like i'm in milwaukee right

00:22:26.576 --> 00:22:28.417
people know people who aren't from the us

00:22:28.438 --> 00:22:30.298
know chicago they don't know milwaukee

00:22:30.338 --> 00:22:33.041
right like that's my my locus point and

00:22:33.301 --> 00:22:35.605
and theater is you know people travel we

00:22:35.625 --> 00:22:37.987
get big shows in milwaukee we're like a

00:22:38.007 --> 00:22:39.469
sort of second tier city

00:22:40.009 --> 00:22:42.391
But the arts community is very small.

00:22:42.490 --> 00:22:44.152
And to think about professionals,

00:22:44.192 --> 00:22:47.493
whether it's musicians or the Milwaukee

00:22:47.513 --> 00:22:48.634
Symphony Orchestra,

00:22:48.974 --> 00:22:50.675
it's really the only exception I can think

00:22:50.736 --> 00:22:50.836
of.

00:22:50.855 --> 00:22:52.636
There's not a big community here for

00:22:52.737 --> 00:22:53.116
artists.

00:22:53.718 --> 00:22:54.698
Working in New York,

00:22:55.179 --> 00:22:56.839
being where there's Broadway,

00:22:56.880 --> 00:22:57.819
where there are shows,

00:22:57.859 --> 00:22:59.741
where there are theaters,

00:23:01.403 --> 00:23:02.762
it's a big part of the community.

00:23:02.963 --> 00:23:06.005
Is that a really good resource?

00:23:06.026 --> 00:23:07.707
Does that come with its own sort of

00:23:09.394 --> 00:23:10.815
I don't know if it's issues or like,

00:23:11.215 --> 00:23:12.836
you know, I'm gonna say toxic stuff.

00:23:13.278 --> 00:23:14.259
I'm approaching it from a sports

00:23:14.278 --> 00:23:15.359
background where again,

00:23:15.400 --> 00:23:17.401
like pockets of the community are lovely

00:23:17.422 --> 00:23:18.883
and wonderful and pockets of the community

00:23:18.903 --> 00:23:19.584
are really harmful.

00:23:19.624 --> 00:23:19.923
But like,

00:23:20.364 --> 00:23:22.526
is New York sort of a unique fertile

00:23:22.566 --> 00:23:26.210
ground for that community because it's New

00:23:26.230 --> 00:23:26.490
York?

00:23:32.656 --> 00:23:34.337
Yeah, I don't know how to answer that.

00:23:34.377 --> 00:23:37.019
You know, I work in New York.

00:23:37.038 --> 00:23:37.358
I don't know.

00:23:37.398 --> 00:23:37.920
It's just normal.

00:23:37.960 --> 00:23:41.101
Yeah, I mean, you know, yes,

00:23:41.141 --> 00:23:42.221
there's a lot of things that are really

00:23:42.261 --> 00:23:42.821
wonderful.

00:23:42.902 --> 00:23:44.061
There's also a lot of things that are

00:23:44.103 --> 00:23:45.843
really harmful, as you named, I think.

00:23:47.064 --> 00:23:47.263
Yeah,

00:23:47.284 --> 00:23:50.705
having that those many that that number of

00:23:50.786 --> 00:23:53.747
avenues for for folks to be also increases

00:23:53.767 --> 00:23:55.107
the number of folks that want to be

00:23:55.147 --> 00:23:55.448
in it.

00:23:55.468 --> 00:23:57.568
So there's a lot of like, competition,

00:23:57.628 --> 00:23:58.288
as you know,

00:23:58.368 --> 00:23:59.450
and there's a lot of like,

00:24:00.059 --> 00:24:02.161
know we're around people all the time but

00:24:02.181 --> 00:24:04.262
there's also a lot of isolation in in

00:24:04.303 --> 00:24:08.105
large numbers um and that's again only

00:24:08.125 --> 00:24:10.047
looking at the catastrophe of it because i

00:24:10.106 --> 00:24:11.807
don't work with folks who are really you

00:24:11.827 --> 00:24:13.449
know who are doing really great they don't

00:24:13.469 --> 00:24:15.029
reach out to me and again this is

00:24:15.089 --> 00:24:17.632
my my again my my messaging of like

00:24:17.872 --> 00:24:20.894
preventative services like do you do it

00:24:21.013 --> 00:24:22.675
access it before you need it um right

00:24:23.888 --> 00:24:25.530
But I also want to plug there that

00:24:25.571 --> 00:24:27.634
like the support group that for intro

00:24:27.673 --> 00:24:29.576
dancers that I work with is a national

00:24:29.616 --> 00:24:30.057
program.

00:24:30.076 --> 00:24:31.179
So it's not therapy,

00:24:31.199 --> 00:24:32.259
it's like group therapy.

00:24:32.560 --> 00:24:33.481
So because of that,

00:24:33.521 --> 00:24:35.664
we're able to offer it like nationwide.

00:24:37.287 --> 00:24:39.410
And like a peer support model.

00:24:40.089 --> 00:24:40.351
Yes.

00:24:40.510 --> 00:24:40.911
Like that.

00:24:41.231 --> 00:24:41.672
Yeah.

00:24:41.712 --> 00:24:41.893
Love it.

00:24:43.645 --> 00:24:44.486
Very cool.

00:24:44.506 --> 00:24:45.705
We'll link to that in the show notes.

00:24:46.007 --> 00:24:47.106
We'll do the plugs at the end,

00:24:47.146 --> 00:24:48.507
but also right now while we're talking

00:24:48.527 --> 00:24:48.787
about it.

00:24:49.527 --> 00:24:50.627
One of the other things that we sort

00:24:50.667 --> 00:24:52.167
of overlap in our work is,

00:24:53.107 --> 00:24:54.689
perhaps from different perspectives again,

00:24:54.749 --> 00:24:57.388
but talking about spirituality and working

00:24:57.429 --> 00:24:59.049
with that for folks.

00:24:59.250 --> 00:25:02.009
I think, similarly,

00:25:02.569 --> 00:25:04.770
the segue I didn't want to follow too

00:25:04.851 --> 00:25:06.750
early in our conversation was, again,

00:25:06.770 --> 00:25:07.872
the identity piece.

00:25:08.491 --> 00:25:09.912
I work with a lot of people who

00:25:10.412 --> 00:25:12.173
are dealing with religious trauma and have

00:25:12.192 --> 00:25:12.833
been harmed.

00:25:13.702 --> 00:25:15.124
whether it's a religious that they were

00:25:15.144 --> 00:25:17.224
brought up in or a cult that they

00:25:17.285 --> 00:25:19.586
joined or were coerced into or whatever.

00:25:20.066 --> 00:25:20.866
So I see a lot of people who

00:25:20.886 --> 00:25:22.468
are leaving and again,

00:25:22.488 --> 00:25:24.828
doing a lot of that identity work of

00:25:24.949 --> 00:25:26.529
when that community or when that belief

00:25:26.549 --> 00:25:28.371
system sort of falls apart,

00:25:29.510 --> 00:25:30.692
what does rebuilding look like?

00:25:30.711 --> 00:25:31.952
What are the pieces we wanna keep with

00:25:31.992 --> 00:25:32.093
us?

00:25:32.113 --> 00:25:34.554
What are the pieces we need to shift

00:25:34.653 --> 00:25:38.415
and or let go of?

00:25:39.136 --> 00:25:40.798
That's also a population you work with.

00:25:41.979 --> 00:25:43.786
on things like spirituality and what a

00:25:43.807 --> 00:25:46.858
healthy version of that can look like well

00:25:46.878 --> 00:25:47.260
i you know

00:25:48.470 --> 00:25:49.790
I wanted to say that this is a

00:25:49.830 --> 00:25:51.530
journey that I just recently started

00:25:51.590 --> 00:25:52.411
professionally.

00:25:53.551 --> 00:25:55.452
Personally, I had my journey,

00:25:55.492 --> 00:25:57.313
which is much longer, but only now,

00:25:57.452 --> 00:25:57.752
actually,

00:25:57.772 --> 00:25:59.894
I'm about to finish my certification

00:26:00.513 --> 00:26:03.536
course on spirituality and social work.

00:26:05.036 --> 00:26:06.977
And I took this course to figure out

00:26:07.037 --> 00:26:08.037
or try to understand,

00:26:08.317 --> 00:26:09.377
how do I incorporate it?

00:26:09.498 --> 00:26:11.337
How do I incorporate spirituality

00:26:13.105 --> 00:26:15.086
Yeah, in a clinical practice.

00:26:15.347 --> 00:26:18.049
And the answers are slowly revealing.

00:26:18.089 --> 00:26:20.171
There's no like single one way of doing

00:26:20.250 --> 00:26:20.652
it, right?

00:26:20.811 --> 00:26:22.173
And I'm just super frustrated.

00:26:22.192 --> 00:26:22.673
I wish there was.

00:26:22.692 --> 00:26:25.795
Yes.

00:26:27.676 --> 00:26:28.196
Yeah.

00:26:29.458 --> 00:26:30.699
Yeah, you know, and

00:26:31.696 --> 00:26:33.398
I run a different support group also,

00:26:33.459 --> 00:26:35.559
and this support group is not solidified.

00:26:35.579 --> 00:26:36.721
It's not something that happens every

00:26:36.740 --> 00:26:39.983
year, but it's for my colleague, Jamie,

00:26:40.304 --> 00:26:42.746
named it the Gendertainers.

00:26:43.226 --> 00:26:44.467
So it's for folks that are gender

00:26:44.507 --> 00:26:46.229
expansive in the entertainment industry.

00:26:47.650 --> 00:26:49.270
And again, it's again, peer support model.

00:26:50.132 --> 00:26:51.932
But yeah, that's one of the things that,

00:26:52.913 --> 00:26:55.016
that's one of the shared experiences that

00:26:55.950 --> 00:26:57.912
a lot of queer and gender-expensive trans

00:26:57.951 --> 00:26:59.972
people have is that, you know,

00:27:00.012 --> 00:27:02.194
we do have really challenging,

00:27:02.255 --> 00:27:04.396
sometimes traumatic experiences in

00:27:04.477 --> 00:27:07.118
organized religion or spiritual spaces.

00:27:07.878 --> 00:27:09.480
And we end up throwing the baby out

00:27:09.500 --> 00:27:10.942
with the bathwater, which to me, again,

00:27:11.021 --> 00:27:15.505
is losing access to protective factors,

00:27:15.644 --> 00:27:15.945
right?

00:27:16.066 --> 00:27:17.287
And so that's why I'm like, oh,

00:27:17.307 --> 00:27:17.967
I wanna know.

00:27:18.428 --> 00:27:19.729
I wanna know how to bring it in

00:27:20.469 --> 00:27:21.569
because I know that I have my own

00:27:21.609 --> 00:27:23.171
personal spiritual practices that have

00:27:23.191 --> 00:27:25.133
been really instrumental to healing.

00:27:26.444 --> 00:27:27.566
and i also want to know what does

00:27:27.605 --> 00:27:29.866
it look like to to bring you know

00:27:29.926 --> 00:27:32.328
spiritually sensitive content to the

00:27:32.368 --> 00:27:36.391
practice yeah yeah i think it's uh you

00:27:36.411 --> 00:27:38.852
know i i say this often in therapy

00:27:38.912 --> 00:27:41.953
humans in mass are very predictable humans

00:27:42.013 --> 00:27:43.615
on an individual basis are nearly

00:27:43.634 --> 00:27:45.576
impossible to predict there's just that

00:27:45.875 --> 00:27:47.876
that high degree of variability with who's

00:27:47.896 --> 00:27:50.439
sitting across from you in the room um

00:27:52.098 --> 00:27:54.403
But in my work scene and my lived

00:27:54.423 --> 00:27:55.463
experience too, right?

00:27:55.483 --> 00:27:56.726
Like I was raised in a high control

00:27:56.766 --> 00:27:58.769
religion, fundamentalist evangelical.

00:28:02.461 --> 00:28:03.540
sort of wrestling with my own

00:28:03.560 --> 00:28:04.421
neurodivergence,

00:28:04.500 --> 00:28:05.882
which I was diagnosed later in life,

00:28:05.942 --> 00:28:07.102
wrestling with my own queerness,

00:28:07.122 --> 00:28:08.501
which I came out later in life.

00:28:10.182 --> 00:28:11.903
And also then like the religious trauma

00:28:11.942 --> 00:28:12.482
piece,

00:28:12.742 --> 00:28:14.683
having to do my own work in therapy,

00:28:14.743 --> 00:28:17.003
having to understand all of those multiple

00:28:17.044 --> 00:28:19.704
pieces before I could even like go back

00:28:19.744 --> 00:28:21.325
to school and study it more,

00:28:21.404 --> 00:28:23.486
so I wasn't bringing my own stuff into

00:28:23.526 --> 00:28:23.945
the room.

00:28:23.965 --> 00:28:26.306
But like, yeah, I think it is,

00:28:26.326 --> 00:28:29.386
in my office, so many people are like,

00:28:29.567 --> 00:28:29.686
ugh,

00:28:30.606 --> 00:28:31.827
I use the word ritual,

00:28:32.307 --> 00:28:33.729
and they'll see them tense up.

00:28:34.048 --> 00:28:34.670
Because again,

00:28:34.710 --> 00:28:37.711
if you are harmed in the Midwest,

00:28:37.730 --> 00:28:40.153
so Catholic or Protestant is the big

00:28:41.773 --> 00:28:42.653
spaces I see.

00:28:42.673 --> 00:28:44.194
But if you were harmed in a religious

00:28:44.234 --> 00:28:44.615
setting,

00:28:44.776 --> 00:28:47.297
that word ritual has all this negative

00:28:47.336 --> 00:28:47.958
connotation.

00:28:48.637 --> 00:28:50.960
rituals are not organized religions

00:28:51.019 --> 00:28:53.061
creation humans have been doing rituals

00:28:53.561 --> 00:28:55.463
for as long as we've been around like

00:28:55.503 --> 00:28:57.945
that's a very new experience and so how

00:28:57.986 --> 00:28:59.847
do we sort of like hold space for

00:28:59.867 --> 00:29:00.969
that how do we honor that how do

00:29:01.009 --> 00:29:03.631
we find an authentic version of that that

00:29:03.730 --> 00:29:08.174
isn't dogmatic or harmful you know it

00:29:08.214 --> 00:29:10.477
makes me think about a conversation uh so

00:29:10.676 --> 00:29:12.577
one of the one of the spiritual practices

00:29:12.597 --> 00:29:13.878
that i that i

00:29:15.999 --> 00:29:18.161
that i'm a part of is curanderismo right

00:29:18.201 --> 00:29:20.143
which is this sort of like it's a

00:29:20.163 --> 00:29:23.246
mess of mesoamerican um spirituality and

00:29:23.286 --> 00:29:26.028
healing practice that is used in like you

00:29:26.048 --> 00:29:27.691
know the borderlands of mexico and the

00:29:27.711 --> 00:29:29.673
united states and like it's called by

00:29:29.692 --> 00:29:30.973
different things if you go different

00:29:30.993 --> 00:29:34.176
places but i was doing this uh i

00:29:34.196 --> 00:29:36.579
guess a presentation on this

00:29:37.741 --> 00:29:39.303
Yeah, I'll call it a presentation.

00:29:39.323 --> 00:29:40.884
So I was talking to, uh,

00:29:41.005 --> 00:29:43.386
to therapists who take a spiritually

00:29:43.406 --> 00:29:45.728
sensitive approach to, um,

00:29:46.048 --> 00:29:47.150
to clinical practice.

00:29:47.490 --> 00:29:49.431
And I was presenting them, you know,

00:29:49.451 --> 00:29:50.372
the four directions.

00:29:50.412 --> 00:29:51.993
And I was like this in this direction,

00:29:52.034 --> 00:29:54.335
we have, um, you know, we have these,

00:29:54.715 --> 00:29:56.857
these energies and like these symbols and

00:29:57.077 --> 00:29:59.359
the name, the masculine and the feminine,

00:29:59.799 --> 00:30:00.861
and these therapists got really,

00:30:01.040 --> 00:30:02.801
some therapists got really tight when I

00:30:02.842 --> 00:30:04.544
was like talking about masculinity and

00:30:04.584 --> 00:30:06.965
femininity and.

00:30:08.277 --> 00:30:10.176
like the assignment of like one direction

00:30:10.237 --> 00:30:12.377
having masculine energy and or feminine

00:30:12.438 --> 00:30:16.519
energy and and i didn't know how to

00:30:16.558 --> 00:30:17.898
address it then because i was more

00:30:17.939 --> 00:30:19.298
concerned about the tension in their

00:30:19.318 --> 00:30:21.359
bodies than than the you know that while

00:30:21.380 --> 00:30:23.559
we were talking about it was only after

00:30:23.599 --> 00:30:25.941
the session after the presentation i guess

00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:28.000
when i was where the question came up

00:30:28.020 --> 00:30:29.060
for me and i was like i wonder

00:30:29.121 --> 00:30:31.021
whose definition of masculine they're

00:30:31.142 --> 00:30:33.021
using to understand this material

00:30:33.769 --> 00:30:34.088
You know,

00:30:34.288 --> 00:30:36.351
I wonder whose definition of femininity

00:30:36.391 --> 00:30:39.032
they're using to understand this material.

00:30:39.493 --> 00:30:42.776
Because if a person understands ritual

00:30:44.317 --> 00:30:45.798
from that, you know,

00:30:45.818 --> 00:30:48.381
sort of like organized religion sense,

00:30:48.840 --> 00:30:50.162
then the relationship with the word is

00:30:50.182 --> 00:30:51.763
going to be impacted by that.

00:30:52.163 --> 00:30:53.305
And so then my work,

00:30:53.525 --> 00:30:55.487
I feel like our work can consist of

00:30:55.507 --> 00:30:55.686
like...

00:30:57.461 --> 00:31:00.323
reclaiming language right reclaiming any

00:31:00.383 --> 00:31:02.223
word that feels like it could be useful

00:31:02.284 --> 00:31:05.506
or finding words that that could take play

00:31:05.806 --> 00:31:07.768
that could take that place but like from

00:31:07.807 --> 00:31:09.429
a social justice perspective i'm like no

00:31:09.469 --> 00:31:11.650
let's take that word back let's read let's

00:31:11.789 --> 00:31:14.531
let's redefine that word and like let's

00:31:14.731 --> 00:31:16.973
not let them be let their definition be

00:31:16.993 --> 00:31:19.474
the only definition of ritual masculinity

00:31:19.515 --> 00:31:22.917
femininity that we have access to yeah

00:31:22.998 --> 00:31:24.778
yeah and that process of meaning making

00:31:26.573 --> 00:31:27.393
It's so cool.

00:31:27.472 --> 00:31:28.513
I get so excited when I get to

00:31:28.534 --> 00:31:29.213
do that with clients.

00:31:29.253 --> 00:31:31.493
But it's really scary at first.

00:31:32.993 --> 00:31:35.855
If you're used to something having meaning

00:31:35.894 --> 00:31:37.075
because you were taught that it had

00:31:37.134 --> 00:31:37.934
meaning,

00:31:38.095 --> 00:31:41.276
letting go of that or even untangling

00:31:41.316 --> 00:31:41.496
that,

00:31:41.536 --> 00:31:42.796
pulling on those threads and being like,

00:31:42.875 --> 00:31:42.996
oh,

00:31:43.076 --> 00:31:45.376
somebody else just picked this and then it

00:31:45.396 --> 00:31:47.537
got handed down.

00:31:47.576 --> 00:31:49.238
But it can be an empowering practice when

00:31:49.258 --> 00:31:50.397
you realize, yeah, you can do it.

00:31:50.637 --> 00:31:52.358
you can make your own rituals you can

00:31:52.398 --> 00:31:54.259
decide how you want to define some of

00:31:54.319 --> 00:31:57.520
these words you like what does it feel

00:31:57.580 --> 00:31:59.402
like in your body when we're doing some

00:31:59.422 --> 00:32:01.242
of this stuff how do you how do

00:32:01.282 --> 00:32:03.584
you resonate with it and i think that's

00:32:03.604 --> 00:32:07.545
like this really lovely experience and i'm

00:32:07.565 --> 00:32:09.925
always reminded that like it feels really

00:32:09.965 --> 00:32:11.386
lovely at this point in my journey but

00:32:11.767 --> 00:32:13.688
it's scary at first usually there's a lot

00:32:13.728 --> 00:32:14.048
of work

00:32:17.212 --> 00:32:17.313
Yeah,

00:32:17.333 --> 00:32:20.655
I'm wondering if you remember like what

00:32:20.695 --> 00:32:26.059
are some words that are synonymous to some

00:32:26.079 --> 00:32:27.740
of the words that could be useful like

00:32:27.780 --> 00:32:31.523
rituals or other words that clients feel

00:32:31.544 --> 00:32:33.384
more comfortable or less activated by?

00:32:36.327 --> 00:32:36.887
Yeah,

00:32:37.028 --> 00:32:39.869
I think a lot of people sort of

00:32:39.890 --> 00:32:40.671
talk about practice.

00:32:41.090 --> 00:32:42.011
I don't like the word habit,

00:32:42.071 --> 00:32:42.893
that's my bias,

00:32:42.952 --> 00:32:44.314
but a lot of my clients do like

00:32:44.374 --> 00:32:46.536
habits because ritual

00:32:47.792 --> 00:32:49.894
feels, I don't know.

00:32:50.354 --> 00:32:51.315
I still use ritual.

00:32:51.375 --> 00:32:53.855
I sort of identify as an atheistic,

00:32:53.935 --> 00:32:55.217
pagan sort of approach,

00:32:55.277 --> 00:32:56.698
earth-revering sort of space.

00:32:56.718 --> 00:32:58.818
But we'll talk about what's sacred.

00:32:59.199 --> 00:33:00.519
If we don't like the word ritual,

00:33:00.559 --> 00:33:01.440
then what's sacred?

00:33:01.559 --> 00:33:03.401
And then how do we maybe have a

00:33:03.480 --> 00:33:06.343
practice or a relationship with the

00:33:06.383 --> 00:33:06.803
sacred?

00:33:07.282 --> 00:33:07.883
Again,

00:33:07.923 --> 00:33:09.564
ritual's uncomfortable or habit's

00:33:09.624 --> 00:33:10.285
uncomfortable.

00:33:10.404 --> 00:33:11.884
What's our relationship with it?

00:33:11.924 --> 00:33:12.566
How is...

00:33:14.048 --> 00:33:15.887
lighting a candle, reading a book,

00:33:15.948 --> 00:33:17.469
having your morning coffee without

00:33:17.528 --> 00:33:18.128
interruption,

00:33:18.169 --> 00:33:19.568
whatever that thing might be,

00:33:19.648 --> 00:33:20.949
how do we sort of hold space for

00:33:20.989 --> 00:33:21.288
that?

00:33:21.648 --> 00:33:22.288
And then again,

00:33:22.308 --> 00:33:24.549
like an added complex layer is like,

00:33:24.569 --> 00:33:26.890
what does spirituality potentially look

00:33:26.930 --> 00:33:27.190
like?

00:33:27.829 --> 00:33:29.431
But I like to start with how do

00:33:29.451 --> 00:33:30.490
we define what's sacred?

00:33:30.510 --> 00:33:32.990
Because I think, again, that's so,

00:33:33.891 --> 00:33:36.011
that can be so empowering to realize, oh,

00:33:37.051 --> 00:33:39.011
what's sacred for me is up to me.

00:33:39.132 --> 00:33:42.492
I love that.

00:33:44.001 --> 00:33:46.344
That's beautiful.

00:33:46.384 --> 00:33:47.104
But it is, you know,

00:33:48.005 --> 00:33:49.226
I've been in the therapy field for a

00:33:49.246 --> 00:33:50.926
little, uh, seventeen years now.

00:33:51.326 --> 00:33:53.989
This is not stuff I was taught, right?

00:33:54.028 --> 00:33:56.971
Like doing my own work and continuing to

00:33:56.990 --> 00:33:58.491
grow and change not only as a person,

00:33:58.511 --> 00:33:59.212
but as a therapist,

00:33:59.252 --> 00:34:01.173
like trying to connect with people who are

00:34:01.193 --> 00:34:02.434
doing decolonizing work,

00:34:02.515 --> 00:34:04.416
trying to be on that side of

00:34:05.217 --> 00:34:06.357
therapy where like, yes,

00:34:06.458 --> 00:34:08.099
we all know the DSM sucks,

00:34:08.179 --> 00:34:10.139
like we can complain about it,

00:34:10.179 --> 00:34:12.039
but what are we replacing it with?

00:34:12.121 --> 00:34:13.681
What else are we doing?

00:34:14.581 --> 00:34:16.943
And you talked just a bit at the

00:34:16.983 --> 00:34:18.744
symposium about two eyed scene.

00:34:18.864 --> 00:34:19.103
Again,

00:34:19.123 --> 00:34:22.065
I think that idea of you said a

00:34:22.085 --> 00:34:23.905
couple of times not throwing the baby out

00:34:23.925 --> 00:34:25.766
with the bathwater like yesterday,

00:34:25.806 --> 00:34:28.389
things we need from cultures,

00:34:28.429 --> 00:34:29.929
from indigenous communities,

00:34:29.969 --> 00:34:31.710
from some of these oral traditions that

00:34:31.750 --> 00:34:33.050
have been handed down that

00:34:34.454 --> 00:34:35.753
work well for humans because they've

00:34:35.833 --> 00:34:38.534
always worked well for humans and blending

00:34:38.554 --> 00:34:40.795
that with modern science and some of the

00:34:40.835 --> 00:34:41.536
technology.

00:34:42.056 --> 00:34:44.556
I think I see so many people who

00:34:44.597 --> 00:34:46.817
like go to see their prescriber for

00:34:46.856 --> 00:34:48.338
fifteen minutes and get put on like a

00:34:48.378 --> 00:34:49.938
medication and that's supposed to be like

00:34:49.998 --> 00:34:50.498
wellness.

00:34:50.557 --> 00:34:50.998
And it's like, yeah,

00:34:51.018 --> 00:34:54.139
that's so sterile and that can't be

00:34:54.259 --> 00:34:54.699
healthy.

00:34:55.800 --> 00:34:57.739
We're missing so much about what makes it.

00:34:57.820 --> 00:35:00.221
So I love again,

00:35:00.240 --> 00:35:01.702
like not just what are we getting rid

00:35:01.722 --> 00:35:03.242
of, but what are we replacing it with?

00:35:03.762 --> 00:35:05.545
I don't think we should get rid of

00:35:05.605 --> 00:35:06.125
anything.

00:35:07.766 --> 00:35:08.967
I think that there's value.

00:35:09.068 --> 00:35:10.849
If it's there, it has a purpose.

00:35:11.510 --> 00:35:13.472
And how we utilize it and the harm

00:35:13.512 --> 00:35:14.652
that we can cause with it,

00:35:14.793 --> 00:35:18.036
that's what we need to look at.

00:35:18.117 --> 00:35:19.757
Yeah, I think that dirty water can,

00:35:20.038 --> 00:35:21.820
you know, water plants maybe,

00:35:21.840 --> 00:35:22.280
I don't know,

00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:24.802
depending on what's dirty with or maybe we

00:35:24.842 --> 00:35:26.123
can like leave it out in the sun

00:35:26.143 --> 00:35:27.786
to evaporate or I don't know.

00:35:28.664 --> 00:35:29.143
that's my,

00:35:29.423 --> 00:35:31.684
that's my initial inclination is to not

00:35:31.724 --> 00:35:32.826
get rid of the DSM five.

00:35:32.846 --> 00:35:33.965
Let's learn with it.

00:35:34.326 --> 00:35:35.666
Let's notice how it's changed.

00:35:35.766 --> 00:35:37.666
Let's notice how people utilize it.

00:35:38.467 --> 00:35:40.568
And also what are some alternative

00:35:40.628 --> 00:35:41.188
resources?

00:35:41.208 --> 00:35:41.469
You know,

00:35:41.489 --> 00:35:44.269
I think that psychotropic medication can

00:35:44.309 --> 00:35:46.431
be so useful for some folks and really

00:35:46.510 --> 00:35:47.851
bad for some other folks.

00:35:48.572 --> 00:35:51.012
And like, uh, Louis Malmadrona,

00:35:51.032 --> 00:35:52.612
who is the person that I learned about

00:35:52.793 --> 00:35:54.733
to I'd seeing with, um,

00:35:55.913 --> 00:35:59.193
was talking about praying to our medicine

00:35:59.213 --> 00:35:59.934
before we take it,

00:36:00.514 --> 00:36:01.534
whatever our medicine is,

00:36:01.554 --> 00:36:03.195
whether it's cannabis, whether it's,

00:36:03.295 --> 00:36:05.876
you know, I don't know,

00:36:05.916 --> 00:36:08.876
heart pressure medication, whatever it is,

00:36:08.956 --> 00:36:09.195
right?

00:36:09.215 --> 00:36:10.797
Like, what's our relationship with it?

00:36:10.836 --> 00:36:12.637
And do we, yeah,

00:36:13.777 --> 00:36:16.077
that relational part of it feels really

00:36:16.097 --> 00:36:16.557
important.

00:36:16.617 --> 00:36:17.739
And for that reason, I'm like, yeah,

00:36:17.759 --> 00:36:18.998
let's not throw anything away.

00:36:19.039 --> 00:36:19.298
Let's

00:36:20.592 --> 00:36:21.371
let's learn with it.

00:36:21.391 --> 00:36:22.833
And then when it becomes,

00:36:23.172 --> 00:36:25.853
when we realize that we're not using it

00:36:25.893 --> 00:36:27.114
anymore, let's not hoard it.

00:36:27.215 --> 00:36:27.835
Right.

00:36:27.875 --> 00:36:29.255
But if it's still useful,

00:36:30.195 --> 00:36:32.737
if we're still using it and it's useful

00:36:32.757 --> 00:36:33.177
for some,

00:36:33.257 --> 00:36:35.637
let's keep it and let's add more to

00:36:35.697 --> 00:36:35.757
it.

00:36:35.818 --> 00:36:38.918
And then just like certain things that are

00:36:38.958 --> 00:36:41.360
not used that end up becoming obsolete on

00:36:41.400 --> 00:36:41.980
their own.

00:36:42.400 --> 00:36:44.181
Like let's watch and let's respect that.

00:36:44.661 --> 00:36:45.902
Let's respect those things that are no

00:36:45.942 --> 00:36:46.601
longer useful.

00:36:46.681 --> 00:36:47.041
And let's,

00:36:48.320 --> 00:36:49.320
what is the word?

00:36:50.202 --> 00:36:51.884
I'm thinking about who's the author of

00:36:52.164 --> 00:36:53.204
hospicing modernity?

00:36:55.067 --> 00:36:59.751
Vanessa, the last name is escaping me,

00:36:59.771 --> 00:37:00.373
but like, yes.

00:37:00.413 --> 00:37:01.693
We'll put it in the show notes.

00:37:02.255 --> 00:37:02.474
Yeah,

00:37:02.494 --> 00:37:03.916
what's our relationship to those things

00:37:03.936 --> 00:37:05.538
that are dying and how can we like

00:37:05.778 --> 00:37:08.221
help them die in a dignified way,

00:37:08.340 --> 00:37:08.601
you know?

00:37:10.329 --> 00:37:12.048
Yeah, and that there's utility,

00:37:12.068 --> 00:37:13.530
there's use for these things,

00:37:13.630 --> 00:37:14.871
even if that use isn't for us

00:37:14.971 --> 00:37:17.893
individually, that it exists for someone.

00:37:20.253 --> 00:37:22.255
And like the responsibility that we have

00:37:22.414 --> 00:37:25.356
as people with power, right?

00:37:25.436 --> 00:37:28.239
Licensed power, the power of a license,

00:37:28.619 --> 00:37:32.081
the power to prescribe or to diagnose

00:37:32.121 --> 00:37:32.300
something.

00:37:32.952 --> 00:37:34.913
Like that's a lot of responsibility.

00:37:34.992 --> 00:37:36.494
How do we ensure and how are we

00:37:36.534 --> 00:37:38.496
constantly assessing for the harm that we

00:37:38.536 --> 00:37:40.677
have potential to do?

00:37:40.737 --> 00:37:41.617
Yeah.

00:37:41.677 --> 00:37:42.217
Yeah.

00:37:42.257 --> 00:37:42.518
Yeah.

00:37:42.539 --> 00:37:43.438
And because again, like,

00:37:43.599 --> 00:37:44.880
like you're saying, some of this stuff is,

00:37:45.721 --> 00:37:47.141
I think the DSM sucks in a lot

00:37:47.161 --> 00:37:49.862
of different ways and work with late

00:37:49.882 --> 00:37:51.425
diagnosed neurodivergent folks.

00:37:51.485 --> 00:37:53.286
When I say you're on the spectrum,

00:37:54.396 --> 00:37:56.119
there's stigma and there's other things we

00:37:56.139 --> 00:37:57.440
have to work through, but like, oh,

00:37:58.019 --> 00:37:58.780
I'm not lazy.

00:37:58.840 --> 00:38:00.041
I'm not bad or wrong.

00:38:00.081 --> 00:38:01.083
My brain's not broken.

00:38:01.123 --> 00:38:02.844
This is just how I'm wired.

00:38:02.905 --> 00:38:04.585
And it's how I've always been wired.

00:38:05.146 --> 00:38:07.449
Like that's such a healing conversation to

00:38:07.509 --> 00:38:09.690
have because now we understand it in a

00:38:09.731 --> 00:38:10.431
different way.

00:38:12.813 --> 00:38:13.414
And then, you know,

00:38:13.454 --> 00:38:15.717
like being aware of our modern times,

00:38:15.757 --> 00:38:18.539
like RFK wants to put autistic people in

00:38:18.579 --> 00:38:19.000
work camps.

00:38:19.019 --> 00:38:19.880
So like, you know, there's a,

00:38:21.376 --> 00:38:23.378
we need to be aware of some of

00:38:23.559 --> 00:38:26.581
still the problems of our systems and what

00:38:27.121 --> 00:38:28.523
power can be used to do,

00:38:28.762 --> 00:38:29.242
like you're saying,

00:38:29.282 --> 00:38:31.344
the harm that it can be done in

00:38:31.385 --> 00:38:31.644
that.

00:38:33.867 --> 00:38:35.208
What was your experience?

00:38:35.987 --> 00:38:37.048
I know you're saying some of this is

00:38:37.088 --> 00:38:38.630
informed by your personal experience,

00:38:38.710 --> 00:38:43.074
but studying at like the Ackerman

00:38:43.134 --> 00:38:43.673
Institute,

00:38:43.713 --> 00:38:45.096
which is like a big name in the

00:38:45.135 --> 00:38:47.237
therapy world, if you're sort of informed,

00:38:47.317 --> 00:38:49.018
like, how do you feel like your,

00:38:50.264 --> 00:38:51.865
your training prepared you for what you

00:38:51.945 --> 00:38:52.885
actually work with now?

00:38:52.905 --> 00:38:54.585
Hmm.

00:38:54.927 --> 00:38:56.166
Yeah.

00:38:57.067 --> 00:38:58.887
In a lot of different ways, you know,

00:38:58.907 --> 00:38:59.568
because I,

00:39:00.068 --> 00:39:02.568
I did my second year internship at

00:39:02.688 --> 00:39:03.128
Ackerman.

00:39:03.228 --> 00:39:04.909
And then I also worked as a,

00:39:05.409 --> 00:39:07.530
as a clinic therapist after I graduated.

00:39:08.490 --> 00:39:13.492
And Cipio Small was the one of the

00:39:14.032 --> 00:39:15.072
Cipio and

00:39:18.081 --> 00:39:20.202
the diversity in social work,

00:39:20.282 --> 00:39:21.704
which is a program that,

00:39:22.125 --> 00:39:24.047
and I believe that it recently ended,

00:39:24.427 --> 00:39:25.588
which is a huge loss,

00:39:25.628 --> 00:39:27.409
but basically it brought in people of

00:39:27.449 --> 00:39:30.833
color to do family therapy.

00:39:31.534 --> 00:39:36.378
And yeah, it brought, and, and Supiyo was,

00:39:36.579 --> 00:39:36.998
you know, this,

00:39:37.739 --> 00:39:41.500
statuesque huge like personality like big

00:39:41.539 --> 00:39:44.920
as heart spirit and he's the first person

00:39:45.021 --> 00:39:47.501
and it's so cool like he probably brought

00:39:47.541 --> 00:39:50.001
more spirituality into the clinical

00:39:50.021 --> 00:39:51.702
practice than any other clinician that i

00:39:51.742 --> 00:39:53.802
know without really intending to i don't

00:39:53.822 --> 00:39:54.963
think that he would call himself a

00:39:55.003 --> 00:39:57.244
spiritual practitioner but he was the

00:39:57.284 --> 00:39:59.184
first person to say like you don't choose

00:39:59.204 --> 00:40:01.324
your clients your clients choose you your

00:40:01.344 --> 00:40:03.606
clients will find you like you keep

00:40:06.532 --> 00:40:07.673
you, I'm using my own words,

00:40:07.813 --> 00:40:09.054
but that's how I received it.

00:40:10.835 --> 00:40:14.159
And, yeah, thinking about, you know,

00:40:14.759 --> 00:40:15.619
systems theory,

00:40:15.659 --> 00:40:17.240
and how that applies to clinical practice

00:40:17.300 --> 00:40:19.282
totally informs the way that I work with,

00:40:19.762 --> 00:40:22.704
like, people, younger people, right?

00:40:22.744 --> 00:40:22.905
Like,

00:40:23.485 --> 00:40:25.047
I worked at a high school for two

00:40:25.086 --> 00:40:25.427
years,

00:40:25.827 --> 00:40:26.088
and

00:40:27.731 --> 00:40:28.170
Yeah,

00:40:28.210 --> 00:40:30.711
we try to do all these interventions at

00:40:30.751 --> 00:40:33.293
the child level without thinking about all

00:40:33.313 --> 00:40:34.172
these other systems,

00:40:34.193 --> 00:40:35.253
like the parent level,

00:40:35.393 --> 00:40:39.054
the community level that impacts them.

00:40:39.074 --> 00:40:40.815
So yeah, the work,

00:40:42.496 --> 00:40:45.597
the Ackerman training and what they teach

00:40:45.617 --> 00:40:46.438
was really,

00:40:46.737 --> 00:40:48.458
it opened my eyes to systemic thinking in

00:40:48.498 --> 00:40:50.159
a way that I'm super grateful.

00:40:52.092 --> 00:40:55.996
I'll say also that I learned that the

00:40:56.036 --> 00:40:58.998
hardest work a therapist can do is family

00:40:59.018 --> 00:40:59.518
therapy.

00:41:00.358 --> 00:41:01.500
And to compound that,

00:41:01.760 --> 00:41:03.541
family therapy with immigrant or

00:41:03.581 --> 00:41:05.842
marginalized populations is the hardest

00:41:05.882 --> 00:41:06.043
work.

00:41:06.822 --> 00:41:08.804
Whenever I meet a really confident

00:41:08.844 --> 00:41:11.025
clinician, I'm like, go into that field.

00:41:11.686 --> 00:41:12.347
Go into that field.

00:41:12.487 --> 00:41:14.047
Really apply yourself there because I

00:41:14.068 --> 00:41:16.190
think that that is truly the heaviest lift

00:41:16.230 --> 00:41:17.811
there is in the mental health field.

00:41:18.692 --> 00:41:19.793
Yeah, yeah.

00:41:20.173 --> 00:41:24.478
And compounded now by all the current

00:41:24.780 --> 00:41:26.061
politics and policies,

00:41:26.702 --> 00:41:30.206
the pawns of immigrant families that the

00:41:30.226 --> 00:41:33.411
current administration is doing horrific

00:41:33.451 --> 00:41:33.831
harm to.

00:41:36.036 --> 00:41:39.380
And those populations have been harmed for

00:41:39.980 --> 00:41:41.721
as long as there's been systems.

00:41:42.222 --> 00:41:45.043
This administration is just showing us in

00:41:45.103 --> 00:41:46.123
a much more public way,

00:41:46.164 --> 00:41:48.226
but these families have always been

00:41:48.726 --> 00:41:52.289
targeted and disenfranchised and excluded.

00:41:54.096 --> 00:41:55.297
Yeah, there is, you know,

00:41:55.597 --> 00:41:57.277
I talk pretty regularly on the podcast.

00:41:57.398 --> 00:41:59.177
I started my first internship was at a

00:41:59.217 --> 00:41:59.978
homeless shelter.

00:42:00.739 --> 00:42:02.539
We talk about sort of the both and

00:42:02.559 --> 00:42:04.661
of that was really great for me to

00:42:04.721 --> 00:42:05.221
learn.

00:42:05.940 --> 00:42:09.083
And I was so vastly underqualified to be

00:42:09.123 --> 00:42:12.023
helping those people who had a degree of

00:42:12.123 --> 00:42:14.684
need that I was not trained or able

00:42:14.744 --> 00:42:15.706
to address.

00:42:16.590 --> 00:42:18.371
um and so it is one of those

00:42:18.411 --> 00:42:20.934
things i like the decolonizing work that's

00:42:20.974 --> 00:42:23.436
happening and again some spaces of the

00:42:23.476 --> 00:42:25.896
therapy world where like yes it's it's not

00:42:25.956 --> 00:42:28.018
just the how do we keep this one

00:42:28.199 --> 00:42:29.980
individual in our office healthy but how

00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:31.721
do we keep families healthy how do we

00:42:31.740 --> 00:42:33.822
keep communities healthy like how do we

00:42:33.882 --> 00:42:36.784
not just like keep functioning but how do

00:42:36.804 --> 00:42:39.186
we actually like have space to thrive

00:42:39.646 --> 00:42:41.387
what's the environment that we need to

00:42:41.447 --> 00:42:44.309
support for that to happen because i think

00:42:44.469 --> 00:42:45.951
again so long it was just like

00:42:46.831 --> 00:42:49.952
diagnosis, medication, go back to work.

00:42:49.992 --> 00:42:51.271
You're doing great because you're doing

00:42:51.492 --> 00:42:52.452
your nine to five.

00:42:52.512 --> 00:42:55.052
And like that is just so lifeless in

00:42:55.072 --> 00:42:56.994
a lot of ways.

00:42:57.074 --> 00:42:57.353
Yeah.

00:42:57.373 --> 00:42:58.853
And it's really hard work,

00:42:58.873 --> 00:43:00.454
but it's so important work, right?

00:43:00.534 --> 00:43:03.474
Like and it's I think it's really great

00:43:03.494 --> 00:43:05.456
that you started there because that

00:43:06.172 --> 00:43:07.893
probably influenced so much of what your

00:43:07.934 --> 00:43:09.355
path looked like that followed that.

00:43:09.715 --> 00:43:10.996
You probably learned about all the things

00:43:11.016 --> 00:43:12.217
that you needed to learn about,

00:43:12.697 --> 00:43:14.420
which is probably a great,

00:43:15.039 --> 00:43:16.300
it's a hard way to learn,

00:43:16.340 --> 00:43:17.663
but it's probably a great thing to be

00:43:17.682 --> 00:43:18.704
exposed to.

00:43:18.784 --> 00:43:19.083
And again,

00:43:19.123 --> 00:43:20.585
like being trained in systems thinking,

00:43:20.625 --> 00:43:21.286
like I love it.

00:43:21.405 --> 00:43:23.268
And it's also like the bane of my

00:43:23.327 --> 00:43:26.291
existence because when you see the systems

00:43:26.311 --> 00:43:27.472
that are failing people,

00:43:28.891 --> 00:43:31.251
And you see it not as a individual

00:43:31.271 --> 00:43:31.590
fault,

00:43:31.630 --> 00:43:33.431
but somebody who's dealing with a symptom

00:43:33.472 --> 00:43:34.532
of a broken system.

00:43:35.572 --> 00:43:38.012
Working with immigrant families,

00:43:38.092 --> 00:43:40.853
working with people who, I'm a millennial,

00:43:40.873 --> 00:43:42.132
so I see a lot of millennials,

00:43:42.293 --> 00:43:43.773
a lot of women who have chronic health

00:43:43.833 --> 00:43:46.414
issues have been misdiagnosed or like just

00:43:46.474 --> 00:43:49.034
not studied for some reason in America.

00:43:49.215 --> 00:43:51.594
We don't understand menopause in any sense

00:43:51.635 --> 00:43:52.094
of the word.

00:43:53.355 --> 00:43:54.876
You know, like, I'm sorry,

00:43:55.195 --> 00:43:55.976
your doctor sucks.

00:43:56.056 --> 00:43:57.076
I'm sorry, the healthcare,

00:43:57.802 --> 00:43:58.141
industry.

00:43:58.161 --> 00:44:00.983
So you know, like, as a systems thinker,

00:44:01.063 --> 00:44:03.364
I think it's an ongoing work that like,

00:44:03.543 --> 00:44:05.583
we keep bumping into these broken systems.

00:44:07.184 --> 00:44:07.644
Yeah,

00:44:07.724 --> 00:44:10.085
and like the the labor of having to

00:44:10.126 --> 00:44:11.646
zoom in and zoom out, right,

00:44:11.666 --> 00:44:12.847
for us as therapists,

00:44:12.927 --> 00:44:14.887
and as people that walk with folks in

00:44:14.907 --> 00:44:15.726
their healing journey,

00:44:16.248 --> 00:44:17.887
like there's so much zooming into the

00:44:17.907 --> 00:44:20.409
micro and zooming out into, you know,

00:44:20.449 --> 00:44:22.289
the these other fields to try to

00:44:22.349 --> 00:44:23.389
understand the context,

00:44:23.409 --> 00:44:25.230
but still be able to meet the folks.

00:44:25.710 --> 00:44:27.451
Yeah, it's really important work.

00:44:28.266 --> 00:44:30.027
yeah for sure and that's you know you

00:44:30.248 --> 00:44:31.728
mentioned the support group earlier like

00:44:31.748 --> 00:44:33.429
that's why i do love peer support that's

00:44:33.449 --> 00:44:34.451
what i do for a lot of the

00:44:34.471 --> 00:44:36.211
religious trauma that i work is trying to

00:44:36.251 --> 00:44:38.554
not set it up as therapy that we

00:44:38.574 --> 00:44:39.914
need a therapist to do but it's peer

00:44:39.954 --> 00:44:42.878
support because again like it's there's

00:44:42.918 --> 00:44:44.579
more people who need their resources than

00:44:44.599 --> 00:44:47.021
resources available so thinking outside of

00:44:47.061 --> 00:44:47.541
that like

00:44:48.516 --> 00:44:51.097
box of here's what code i need for

00:44:51.177 --> 00:44:53.257
insurance reimbursement and how else can

00:44:53.297 --> 00:44:54.998
we give people good information how else

00:44:55.018 --> 00:44:57.159
can we reach people and help them is

00:44:57.360 --> 00:45:01.081
really needed right now yeah and that's so

00:45:01.121 --> 00:45:03.242
interesting it makes me think about how

00:45:03.282 --> 00:45:06.885
people relate to these healing practices

00:45:07.005 --> 00:45:09.126
when we change the language right going

00:45:09.146 --> 00:45:10.507
back to language if we're calling it

00:45:10.547 --> 00:45:12.387
therapy what's the relationship to

00:45:13.657 --> 00:45:14.918
that healing practice of being in

00:45:14.958 --> 00:45:16.639
community and how does it shift when we

00:45:16.679 --> 00:45:17.579
call it peer support?

00:45:17.639 --> 00:45:20.001
How does it shift to when we change

00:45:20.041 --> 00:45:20.581
the language?

00:45:20.702 --> 00:45:23.963
Because hopefully my prayer is that it's

00:45:24.023 --> 00:45:25.364
always a healing process, right?

00:45:25.405 --> 00:45:25.605
Right.

00:45:25.625 --> 00:45:26.264
Yeah.

00:45:27.025 --> 00:45:28.567
Yeah.

00:45:30.447 --> 00:45:32.028
Mario, this has been lovely.

00:45:32.469 --> 00:45:33.809
I want to be respectful of your time.

00:45:34.590 --> 00:45:35.911
If people want to learn more about you,

00:45:35.931 --> 00:45:37.032
if people want to connect to some of

00:45:37.072 --> 00:45:38.351
the offerings that you have,

00:45:38.371 --> 00:45:39.032
where do they go?

00:45:39.112 --> 00:45:41.173
How do they find you?

00:45:41.233 --> 00:45:42.474
Well,

00:45:43.702 --> 00:45:46.585
I guess my website, yeah.

00:45:46.686 --> 00:45:47.907
I can share with you my website.

00:45:47.947 --> 00:45:50.068
That's the way to connect with me.

00:45:51.409 --> 00:45:53.452
So my full-time job is at the

00:45:53.472 --> 00:45:54.572
Entertainment Community Fund.

00:45:54.592 --> 00:45:57.195
This is a national social service agency

00:45:57.215 --> 00:45:58.135
that works with people in the

00:45:58.155 --> 00:45:58.996
entertainment industry.

00:45:59.637 --> 00:46:00.976
And not just people in front of the

00:46:00.996 --> 00:46:02.757
stage or in front of the TV,

00:46:02.878 --> 00:46:03.697
in front of the camera,

00:46:03.757 --> 00:46:06.239
but it's also people that support folks

00:46:06.259 --> 00:46:07.079
that support the arts.

00:46:07.099 --> 00:46:08.539
So like hair, makeup,

00:46:09.480 --> 00:46:10.719
people that clean theaters,

00:46:10.739 --> 00:46:11.940
people that take tickets,

00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:15.061
people that are setting up stages for

00:46:15.101 --> 00:46:15.601
concerts.

00:46:15.621 --> 00:46:17.161
So everybody in front and behind the

00:46:17.202 --> 00:46:17.382
scenes.

00:46:17.402 --> 00:46:17.661
I love that.

00:46:19.682 --> 00:46:21.043
National organizations called the

00:46:21.063 --> 00:46:22.123
Entertainment Community Fund.

00:46:22.143 --> 00:46:23.264
They'll give you the website.

00:46:23.304 --> 00:46:24.384
So that's my full-time job.

00:46:24.443 --> 00:46:24.784
And again,

00:46:24.804 --> 00:46:26.264
I work specifically with dancers and

00:46:26.304 --> 00:46:26.925
choreographers.

00:46:29.112 --> 00:46:31.693
So if there's entertainment people that

00:46:31.713 --> 00:46:32.974
are interested in the services,

00:46:33.655 --> 00:46:35.635
and if there's dancers that are interested

00:46:35.655 --> 00:46:36.356
in the support group,

00:46:36.376 --> 00:46:37.675
they can reach out to me through that.

00:46:38.697 --> 00:46:40.317
And I also have like my private practice

00:46:40.356 --> 00:46:41.878
where I work with folks individually.

00:46:42.998 --> 00:46:44.798
I go through one of those places that

00:46:44.838 --> 00:46:46.139
allows me to take insurance.

00:46:46.159 --> 00:46:47.480
I don't know if we're gonna be collecting

00:46:47.500 --> 00:46:49.721
things like that, but yeah,

00:46:49.740 --> 00:46:52.202
through my website is how people can get

00:46:52.222 --> 00:46:53.222
in touch with me directly.

00:46:54.164 --> 00:46:54.324
Yeah,

00:46:54.583 --> 00:46:55.884
and wherever you're listening to this

00:46:55.903 --> 00:46:56.304
podcast,

00:46:56.324 --> 00:46:57.905
we'll have those links down in the show

00:46:57.945 --> 00:46:58.184
notes.

00:46:58.324 --> 00:46:59.144
That's nice and easy.

00:46:59.184 --> 00:47:00.125
You can follow those links.

00:47:01.264 --> 00:47:04.025
Mario, thanks for, A,

00:47:04.385 --> 00:47:05.606
being awesome at the symposium,

00:47:05.746 --> 00:47:06.686
which is where I got to meet you

00:47:06.786 --> 00:47:07.827
for the first time,

00:47:07.907 --> 00:47:09.266
but also thanks for taking the time to

00:47:09.306 --> 00:47:11.867
come on and chat a bit today.

00:47:11.907 --> 00:47:12.947
Thanks for the invitation.

00:47:13.327 --> 00:47:15.047
Yeah, it's been nice to talk to you.

00:47:16.248 --> 00:47:18.228
And to all our wonderful listeners,

00:47:18.268 --> 00:47:20.168
thanks for tuning in again this week.

00:47:20.268 --> 00:47:22.210
We will be back next week with a

00:47:22.269 --> 00:47:22.989
new episode.

00:47:23.150 --> 00:47:23.909
Take care, everyone.