Your Therapist Needs Therapy
Everyone needs help with their mental health, even mental health professionals. Join us as we have your therapist take a seat on the couch to talk about their own mental health journey!
Your Therapist Needs Therapy
Your Therapist Needs Therapy 144 - What Comes Next in Mental Health?
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Jeremy tries his hand at being an optimist this week! We take a look at a few possible futures and what role mental health might play. Jeremy questions if the profession is ready (and willing) to pivot into different models of care and call on the entire field of mental health to shift tactics to meet the moment, rather than react decades too late. You can decide how Jeremy fares at trying out this concept of hope.
As always, Jeremy has all his practice info at Wellness with Jer, and you can find him on Instagram and YouTube. To show your love for the show you can pick up some merch! We appreciate support from likes, follows, and shares as well! None of my online work would be possible without my media maven Kenny, so check out their work as well at kenlingdesign.com
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Podcasts about therapy do not replace actual therapy, and listening to a podcast about therapy does not signify a therapeutic relationship.If you or someone you know is in crisis please call or text the nationwide crisis line at 988, or text HELLO to 741741. The Trevor Project has a crisis line for LGBTQ+ young people that can be reached by texting 678678.
Hello and welcome to another edition of
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Your Therapist Needs Therapy,
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the podcast where two mental health
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professionals talk about their mental
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health journeys and how they navigate
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mental wellness while working in the
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mental health field,
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or the podcast where I
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Jeremy Schumacher,
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friendly licensed neighborhood,
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friendly neighborhood licensed marriage
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family therapist.
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There we go.
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The start of the week,
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it's going to be a long one.
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Where I riff on mental health topics that
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are relevant to the current world.
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Super fun.
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Sometimes actually no, this episode,
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hopefully
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gets a little optimistic,
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I refer to myself as a cynical optimist,
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which is I am aware that good things
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can happen and even hopeful that they
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will.
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I'm just skeptical that that'll happen
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until I see some evidence of it.
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And so...
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Yeah,
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sometimes I can be a little dreary on
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this podcast,
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which is to say the theme of the
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podcast is that everybody needs help with
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their mental health.
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So I don't think it's dreary.
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I personally don't think it's dreary so
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much as realistic.
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And also,
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I don't want to be dreary all the
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time.
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So a few episodes ago,
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I had Mario Ismael Espinoza on,
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and they referenced a book,
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Hospicing Modernity.
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And I'm in the process of reading the
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book,
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and so I'm not quite ready to talk
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about the book yet.
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And if you want to go listen to
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my episode with Mario,
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that is a few episodes ago.
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But today, with that sort of in mind,
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I'm a member of the Climate Psychology
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Alliance of North America.
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Hattie Parmeter and Kelsey Philippi have
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been on in relation to those topics.
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CPA, NA specifically.
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Kelsey's been on a couple times.
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And so I'm just around this idea of
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the collapse.
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I'm around this idea of...
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things breaking apart um it's something
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that i think i'm i'm around it not
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by happenstance i'm around it because in
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my work i see it happening all the
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time and this isn't simply couples
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breaking up this is this is more about
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the structures that i grew up in that
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i came up through that i got my
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license and credentialing through falling
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apart and what happened then
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generally uh i'm resistant to the idea of
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collapse although i do think that is how
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we're talking about it as as a culture
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that uh the american empire is
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on its way out,
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and I like to use the word crumble.
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I don't remember where I heard it first.
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Somebody smarter than me said it's not
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really a collapse, it's a crumble,
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because there are parts that are going to
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be maintained,
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there are things that are still going to
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hold up,
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and there are things that are going to
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break off over time,
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and we're already experiencing that.
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Spoiler alert,
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this is sort of where we land at
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the end of the episode today,
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if I do it well.
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which is we're already experiencing all of
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these things,
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but I do want to talk about what
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might happen.
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This is a wildly speculative episode.
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This is not something that I necessarily
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have a ton of research or a ton
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of even background on.
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I try not to prognosticate.
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I get a lot of things wrong.
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And also I want to sort of look
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at like where we're going,
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what might happen in the future.
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I do this a lot in therapy when
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we talk about
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um treatment goals we talk about progress
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plans that we talk about you know sort
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of checking in and reevaluating and seeing
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where we're at i do a lot of
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planning for the future what do we want
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it to look like what are we looking
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for what are signs of progress what are
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the markers that we're going to see when
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we know so we know that we get
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there and it's not just moving goal posts
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all the time um so i do prognosticate
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a lot in therapy in the sense of
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most likely outcomes and um
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that is hopeful and also based in some
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sort of reality.
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So I think that's how I'm approaching it
00:04:14.015 --> 00:04:14.256
here.
00:04:14.295 --> 00:04:15.537
I have a hard time being like,
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no one knows.
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And I do agree with that.
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I agree in principle that no one really
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knows.
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And I agree strongly that if somebody
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tells you for sure that they know that
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you don't listen to that person,
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whether that is a
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A teacher, an elder,
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especially if it is a church or a
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cult leader, gosh,
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they've been claiming to know what was
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going to happen next.
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And they've been wrong a hundred percent
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of the time.
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So yeah, I mean, let's do it.
00:04:52.779 --> 00:04:53.641
Come along with me.
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This is a thought experiment to see how
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optimistic I could be.
00:04:59.343 --> 00:05:02.185
I mean, I certainly think we are...
00:05:03.692 --> 00:05:05.812
living through this one already but i
00:05:05.833 --> 00:05:08.774
would say um one potential outcome is like
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things just get even more authoritarian
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right this is um the system collapses
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crumbles etc empire fails and what takes
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its place is
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I don't even want to say this is
00:05:25.113 --> 00:05:25.593
Empire Fails.
00:05:26.714 --> 00:05:30.497
This might be insurance companies fail and
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we nationalize therapy.
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Woo-hoo, single-payer insurance.
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Everyone saves a ton of money.
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This is a good idea,
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except for the idea is that single-payer
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only is going to pay for one type
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of therapy.
00:05:47.788 --> 00:05:48.449
Probably CBT.
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That's what insurance companies like the
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most right now.
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And so we'll shift.
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society will shift and make progress which
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would be good which would be single-payer
00:06:00.716 --> 00:06:05.658
healthcare um the problem would be what
00:06:05.718 --> 00:06:08.459
happens and and this is again realistic
00:06:08.478 --> 00:06:09.718
because like look at who's in charge of
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hhs right now and a decade ago that
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would have seemed preposterous so we're
00:06:14.720 --> 00:06:16.980
dealing with the crumble already um but
00:06:17.000 --> 00:06:18.862
having people who are not qualified or
00:06:18.901 --> 00:06:21.942
people who are uh definitely have special
00:06:21.982 --> 00:06:23.742
interests in mind or um
00:06:24.692 --> 00:06:27.653
you know, are just corrupt, are in charge,
00:06:28.213 --> 00:06:31.435
and we get nationalized mental health
00:06:31.475 --> 00:06:31.754
care,
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but it is only of a certain type.
00:06:34.495 --> 00:06:34.735
Again,
00:06:35.055 --> 00:06:36.815
if we had nationalized health care now,
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they'd be working really hard to make sure
00:06:41.336 --> 00:06:43.177
trans people couldn't get health care
00:06:43.218 --> 00:06:46.139
coverage, right?
00:06:46.178 --> 00:06:47.178
So, you know,
00:06:48.567 --> 00:06:52.271
this is what Soviet psychiatry looks like,
00:06:53.211 --> 00:06:54.853
I would say is the historical precedent,
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which is where certain things were
00:06:57.295 --> 00:06:58.916
outlawed, certain things were demonized,
00:06:58.997 --> 00:07:00.718
dissent was demonized.
00:07:01.480 --> 00:07:02.641
And so again,
00:07:02.680 --> 00:07:05.103
this is sort of a crumbling future where
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part of the institutions that we're
00:07:07.125 --> 00:07:09.007
dealing with now that are bad and harmful,
00:07:09.086 --> 00:07:09.987
not just to our
00:07:10.458 --> 00:07:11.819
mental health as a society,
00:07:11.858 --> 00:07:13.360
but how we as mental health professionals
00:07:13.459 --> 00:07:14.901
practice mental health,
00:07:15.922 --> 00:07:17.202
it would be great to get rid of
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insurance companies.
00:07:18.624 --> 00:07:20.444
Full on board, love it.
00:07:21.185 --> 00:07:22.505
And we do have to be intentional with
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what's going to take its place.
00:07:23.586 --> 00:07:25.067
If it is nationalized healthcare,
00:07:26.009 --> 00:07:27.689
what does that look like and who gets
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to make those decisions?
00:07:28.891 --> 00:07:31.913
Is it patient and provider gets to make
00:07:31.952 --> 00:07:35.074
those decisions together collaboratively?
00:07:35.214 --> 00:07:37.076
Is it the state making those decisions?
00:07:37.115 --> 00:07:37.797
Because the state...
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is going to enact violence on marginalized
00:07:41.220 --> 00:07:41.740
communities.
00:07:41.901 --> 00:07:48.307
And so I certainly think we have been
00:07:48.427 --> 00:07:50.389
micro dosing this.
00:07:51.410 --> 00:07:54.132
We've been getting tiny versions of this.
00:07:54.973 --> 00:07:55.834
It's what workplace
00:07:59.389 --> 00:08:02.112
Employee assistance programs, EAPs are,
00:08:02.591 --> 00:08:05.415
which is X number of sessions covered for
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X number of issues only, no wiggle room.
00:08:09.738 --> 00:08:10.779
And again,
00:08:10.819 --> 00:08:11.980
these companies want to pat on the back
00:08:12.021 --> 00:08:12.442
to say, look,
00:08:12.461 --> 00:08:14.463
we're taking our employees' mental health
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seriously.
00:08:14.983 --> 00:08:16.064
No, you're not, right?
00:08:16.084 --> 00:08:18.206
Like wellness is an ongoing process.
00:08:18.266 --> 00:08:19.809
Mental health is not separate from
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physical health.
00:08:22.098 --> 00:08:23.880
I think, again,
00:08:24.360 --> 00:08:27.444
the idea of mental health would become
00:08:27.463 --> 00:08:31.649
accessible for everyone, quote unquote,
00:08:31.668 --> 00:08:33.650
but it still protects the system at large
00:08:34.110 --> 00:08:35.292
would be a bad outcome.
00:08:37.573 --> 00:08:38.755
That's what we have now.
00:08:38.855 --> 00:08:40.116
And not only is it protecting the system
00:08:40.157 --> 00:08:41.879
at large, but it also profits everyone.
00:08:42.970 --> 00:08:44.750
An unnecessary third party.
00:08:44.831 --> 00:08:45.071
Again,
00:08:45.110 --> 00:08:46.491
how insurance companies came in to be the
00:08:46.552 --> 00:08:48.312
only people making money off of mental
00:08:48.352 --> 00:08:49.994
health because it sure isn't the
00:08:50.033 --> 00:08:50.793
providers.
00:08:51.955 --> 00:08:53.035
I'll never understand.
00:08:53.076 --> 00:08:56.918
But this would be an unfortunate outcome
00:08:56.998 --> 00:08:57.557
and also, I think,
00:08:57.577 --> 00:08:58.899
a very realistic outcome because, again,
00:08:58.918 --> 00:09:00.720
we've been practicing this already.
00:09:02.100 --> 00:09:04.101
This would be we get rid of insurance
00:09:04.121 --> 00:09:05.363
companies because...
00:09:06.283 --> 00:09:09.283
they're bad and unnecessary and we replace
00:09:09.344 --> 00:09:11.264
it with a state-sponsored model that
00:09:11.304 --> 00:09:15.787
doesn't correct anything other than costs
00:09:15.986 --> 00:09:19.609
are down and maybe not even costs are
00:09:19.629 --> 00:09:21.830
down but just accessibility goes up and so
00:09:24.710 --> 00:09:26.591
All providers can get paid by the state
00:09:26.773 --> 00:09:28.313
if they do the state approved therapy.
00:09:29.174 --> 00:09:29.556
And again,
00:09:29.716 --> 00:09:32.298
this would be a bad outcome because a
00:09:32.359 --> 00:09:34.621
lot of things that I already work with
00:09:34.701 --> 00:09:36.004
are not even in the DSM yet.
00:09:38.975 --> 00:09:40.956
So having what crumbled to be the
00:09:40.996 --> 00:09:43.938
insurance companies would be a net benefit
00:09:44.019 --> 00:09:46.399
for people's overall health and wellness
00:09:47.100 --> 00:09:47.681
writ large.
00:09:47.701 --> 00:09:49.422
This would be a bad outcome long-term for
00:09:49.461 --> 00:09:51.263
mental health and especially for providers
00:09:51.283 --> 00:09:51.942
because this wouldn't,
00:09:52.464 --> 00:09:54.284
this would really hem us in and limit
00:09:54.365 --> 00:09:55.705
who we can work with and how we
00:09:55.725 --> 00:09:56.525
can work with them.
00:09:56.546 --> 00:09:57.846
So that would not really be a benefit
00:09:57.927 --> 00:09:58.966
to, again,
00:09:59.006 --> 00:10:00.827
it would just shift the class who's
00:10:00.888 --> 00:10:01.808
benefiting here.
00:10:02.129 --> 00:10:03.669
There'd be a certain social class who does
00:10:03.710 --> 00:10:05.270
benefit from mental health being done this
00:10:05.331 --> 00:10:05.510
way.
00:10:06.570 --> 00:10:08.292
probably the people who are going to keep
00:10:08.511 --> 00:10:11.414
what what bit of empire still remains
00:10:12.916 --> 00:10:18.322
intact um and again this this can go
00:10:18.522 --> 00:10:23.346
really poorly i think a better version
00:10:23.427 --> 00:10:25.989
would be well this gets into the second
00:10:26.009 --> 00:10:27.510
future i sort of see um
00:10:30.003 --> 00:10:31.783
If we're going to stay sort of in
00:10:31.823 --> 00:10:34.203
that model, the authoritarian model,
00:10:34.384 --> 00:10:36.485
there's a hierarchy, top-down model.
00:10:37.325 --> 00:10:38.544
I think it would be better if,
00:10:39.505 --> 00:10:40.546
not even like states,
00:10:40.806 --> 00:10:42.166
because I'm not a states-right person.
00:10:42.466 --> 00:10:43.687
I don't think borders should exist.
00:10:45.246 --> 00:10:47.168
But I think the governing...
00:10:49.494 --> 00:10:50.615
various boards, right?
00:10:50.735 --> 00:10:52.255
When you have people who are professionals
00:10:52.336 --> 00:10:52.936
in the profession,
00:10:52.956 --> 00:10:53.836
that's going to be better.
00:10:54.277 --> 00:10:54.998
Is it still bad?
00:10:55.077 --> 00:10:55.317
Yeah.
00:10:55.418 --> 00:10:56.197
Cause those are the people who put
00:10:56.217 --> 00:10:57.538
together the DSM, right?
00:10:57.578 --> 00:10:59.500
It's a bunch of stuffy academics who no
00:10:59.520 --> 00:11:01.001
longer work with clients who are out of
00:11:01.022 --> 00:11:02.482
touch with the population in general.
00:11:03.182 --> 00:11:03.442
Um,
00:11:03.462 --> 00:11:05.063
you're going to have definitely definite
00:11:05.104 --> 00:11:07.785
class biases involved in that process.
00:11:08.606 --> 00:11:08.846
Um,
00:11:08.886 --> 00:11:10.168
but that would be better than the state,
00:11:10.388 --> 00:11:10.648
right?
00:11:11.668 --> 00:11:13.570
Or the federal state, you know,
00:11:13.610 --> 00:11:16.932
the state as somebody who talks politics
00:11:16.971 --> 00:11:17.471
talks about it.
00:11:18.192 --> 00:11:18.352
Um,
00:11:20.389 --> 00:11:23.390
would be better right like uh for the
00:11:23.431 --> 00:11:27.253
federal government to say the supreme
00:11:27.293 --> 00:11:29.374
court specifically to say hey it's okay to
00:11:30.234 --> 00:11:32.115
it's protected speech for licensed
00:11:32.134 --> 00:11:35.436
professionals like therapists to do harm
00:11:36.135 --> 00:11:38.356
if it's religious speech right we're going
00:11:38.376 --> 00:11:39.817
to let religious people harm children
00:11:39.857 --> 00:11:40.278
because
00:11:41.619 --> 00:11:42.960
think the religion is more important than
00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:45.162
the harm um that's what the supreme court
00:11:45.182 --> 00:11:47.043
just did with with the conversion therapy
00:11:47.063 --> 00:11:49.326
case that was in front of them and
00:11:49.846 --> 00:11:52.609
every single state licensing board every
00:11:52.649 --> 00:11:56.873
single um organization so like the
00:11:56.893 --> 00:11:58.594
wisconsin association of marriage family
00:11:58.634 --> 00:12:00.735
therapists came out and and had something
00:12:00.775 --> 00:12:02.277
the illinois um
00:12:03.227 --> 00:12:05.149
association of marriage family therapists
00:12:05.168 --> 00:12:06.750
had something right lots of different
00:12:06.769 --> 00:12:08.730
people have come out and said conversion
00:12:08.770 --> 00:12:11.332
therapy is harm it's unethical to practice
00:12:11.352 --> 00:12:13.894
this way people who are licensed under us
00:12:14.234 --> 00:12:15.475
are not going to practice this way and
00:12:15.495 --> 00:12:16.875
you can report them if they do um
00:12:17.836 --> 00:12:19.157
and so again like you have sort of
00:12:19.177 --> 00:12:21.639
this the states the federal government
00:12:24.235 --> 00:12:25.956
weighed in one way and then the singular
00:12:26.017 --> 00:12:28.259
states uh licensing boards the
00:12:28.298 --> 00:12:30.440
professionals in specific geographic areas
00:12:30.500 --> 00:12:32.601
came out and said something different and
00:12:32.642 --> 00:12:34.964
that segues into second sort of the second
00:12:34.984 --> 00:12:37.225
thing we have we have a wider collapse
00:12:37.307 --> 00:12:39.048
not just of the insurance industry not
00:12:39.067 --> 00:12:41.830
just of capitalism as our model of
00:12:41.890 --> 00:12:43.491
economics but uh
00:12:44.676 --> 00:12:45.296
of the empire,
00:12:45.336 --> 00:12:47.017
the United States collapses and breaks
00:12:47.057 --> 00:12:48.336
into smaller pieces.
00:12:48.456 --> 00:12:50.677
And so we end up with no real
00:12:50.738 --> 00:12:52.918
central system at all as much smaller
00:12:52.938 --> 00:12:53.958
fragmentation.
00:12:54.759 --> 00:12:56.620
This has happened in different places
00:12:56.679 --> 00:12:58.080
throughout the world throughout history,
00:12:58.980 --> 00:13:00.541
a big country splits up into little
00:13:00.561 --> 00:13:01.061
countries,
00:13:01.782 --> 00:13:02.322
and
00:13:05.173 --> 00:13:07.037
Hard to say what the benefit would be.
00:13:07.597 --> 00:13:09.080
Some places would benefit greatly from
00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:09.340
that.
00:13:09.419 --> 00:13:10.701
Some places would really fall apart.
00:13:11.302 --> 00:13:12.705
If that happened in America,
00:13:13.765 --> 00:13:15.609
the East Coast would probably be okay.
00:13:15.668 --> 00:13:17.530
The West Coast would probably be okay.
00:13:19.254 --> 00:13:20.475
Middle America would be
00:13:21.897 --> 00:13:24.038
widely divergent in whether it was okay or
00:13:24.077 --> 00:13:25.438
not again if you sort of look at
00:13:25.479 --> 00:13:27.940
where there's already service deserts
00:13:27.980 --> 00:13:29.159
where there's already mental health
00:13:29.200 --> 00:13:31.520
deserts um those places would not be okay
00:13:31.760 --> 00:13:33.621
if we had a sort of fractured fragmenting
00:13:33.942 --> 00:13:35.462
there wouldn't be enough providers and
00:13:35.482 --> 00:13:36.982
those providers would be really narrow in
00:13:37.082 --> 00:13:39.724
scope and uh there wouldn't be the
00:13:39.783 --> 00:13:41.784
resources to be able to fund something
00:13:41.825 --> 00:13:44.326
like that where if you look at you
00:13:44.346 --> 00:13:46.447
know california could do this with their
00:13:46.506 --> 00:13:48.148
economy already where they could just say
00:13:48.168 --> 00:13:49.629
hey we're gonna do it this way and
00:13:49.649 --> 00:13:50.469
we're not necessarily
00:13:50.869 --> 00:13:52.350
needing or asking for the federal
00:13:52.370 --> 00:13:53.909
government's permission or help to do
00:13:53.929 --> 00:13:54.090
this,
00:13:54.110 --> 00:13:54.970
we're just going to do it this way
00:13:54.990 --> 00:13:56.951
because it's what we want to do.
00:13:57.471 --> 00:14:00.511
And again, a benevolent leader,
00:14:01.011 --> 00:14:02.932
that mythology out there of a
00:14:11.913 --> 00:14:12.234
East Coast,
00:14:12.274 --> 00:14:14.135
West Coast that have big enough economies
00:14:14.155 --> 00:14:15.797
that have the resources available and have
00:14:15.836 --> 00:14:17.437
enough providers available to be able to
00:14:17.457 --> 00:14:18.118
do something like this.
00:14:18.577 --> 00:14:19.058
Who knows?
00:14:19.178 --> 00:14:19.379
Again,
00:14:20.460 --> 00:14:22.341
it's that spider web idea where everything
00:14:22.400 --> 00:14:23.140
is connected,
00:14:23.241 --> 00:14:25.023
even if it's not a one-to-one connection,
00:14:25.043 --> 00:14:26.323
even if it's not direct connection.
00:14:26.783 --> 00:14:29.184
What would happen in that fragmentation to
00:14:29.225 --> 00:14:30.886
those local economies to...
00:14:31.586 --> 00:14:35.808
things like um housing and finances and
00:14:35.869 --> 00:14:37.870
other stuff i'm sort of taking and
00:14:37.909 --> 00:14:39.831
extrapolating what already exists and
00:14:39.870 --> 00:14:41.552
saying now if the federal government
00:14:41.591 --> 00:14:45.513
wasn't there um but within that i mean
00:14:45.552 --> 00:14:46.953
again you're gonna lose some of those
00:14:46.974 --> 00:14:48.835
things i'm not like uh again i said
00:14:48.875 --> 00:14:50.316
the state's gonna enact violence against
00:14:50.375 --> 00:14:51.796
marginalized communities earlier because
00:14:51.816 --> 00:14:55.197
that's what states do um i don't know
00:14:55.217 --> 00:14:57.219
that we get to like full anarchy and
00:14:57.278 --> 00:14:58.719
even if we did get to full anarchy
00:14:59.460 --> 00:14:59.659
um
00:15:00.918 --> 00:15:03.282
we would have things popping up like cults
00:15:03.423 --> 00:15:04.403
and cultic leaders,
00:15:05.304 --> 00:15:08.009
and maybe they wouldn't be religious,
00:15:08.048 --> 00:15:09.971
but likely, again,
00:15:10.011 --> 00:15:11.474
that's what human history has sort of
00:15:11.494 --> 00:15:11.835
been,
00:15:11.894 --> 00:15:14.778
is a superstitious response to things that
00:15:14.798 --> 00:15:15.539
we can't answer.
00:15:17.491 --> 00:15:18.513
I would love to think there would be
00:15:18.552 --> 00:15:21.474
places that are community-based,
00:15:21.653 --> 00:15:25.436
reciprocal, bottom-up leadership,
00:15:26.356 --> 00:15:30.399
and funding for things like a peer-to-peer
00:15:30.438 --> 00:15:32.840
model and things like research.
00:15:33.059 --> 00:15:35.480
And those things would still go on,
00:15:35.600 --> 00:15:36.682
non-pathologizing,
00:15:36.761 --> 00:15:38.523
not focused on impairment.
00:15:40.754 --> 00:15:44.535
lovely again uh cults and grifters would
00:15:44.576 --> 00:15:46.596
pop up though i mean like mlms are
00:15:46.636 --> 00:15:50.298
the latest in a long line um mass
00:15:50.318 --> 00:15:52.220
level marketing mass level marketing
00:15:52.539 --> 00:15:54.642
what's the first m um
00:15:55.697 --> 00:15:55.976
you know,
00:15:56.037 --> 00:15:58.078
Mary Kay and whatever sort of wellness
00:15:58.198 --> 00:15:59.038
grift goes on.
00:15:59.119 --> 00:16:01.660
And in these things, um,
00:16:01.701 --> 00:16:02.621
the pyramid schemes,
00:16:03.142 --> 00:16:03.961
those types of things would,
00:16:04.163 --> 00:16:05.082
would also pop up.
00:16:05.143 --> 00:16:05.383
Right.
00:16:05.482 --> 00:16:08.325
And Scientology has that built into their
00:16:08.365 --> 00:16:08.846
religion.
00:16:08.946 --> 00:16:11.427
So we've already got a marriage of, uh,
00:16:11.586 --> 00:16:13.448
religion and this, uh,
00:16:13.708 --> 00:16:14.509
multi-level marketing.
00:16:14.548 --> 00:16:14.929
There it is.
00:16:15.169 --> 00:16:15.549
Multi.
00:16:15.990 --> 00:16:17.091
The first M is multi.
00:16:17.811 --> 00:16:19.753
Uh, it again, it's a Monday.
00:16:19.793 --> 00:16:21.474
I'm recording this on, um,
00:16:23.413 --> 00:16:24.653
And you'd have these gaps,
00:16:24.673 --> 00:16:25.695
you'd have these gaps where people are
00:16:25.715 --> 00:16:27.014
filling in and just doing their best,
00:16:27.054 --> 00:16:27.816
but without training,
00:16:27.855 --> 00:16:29.496
without other guardrails,
00:16:29.557 --> 00:16:31.477
like harm's still going to get done there.
00:16:31.558 --> 00:16:34.460
So the potential of fragmentation of
00:16:34.500 --> 00:16:36.062
things breaking apart,
00:16:38.023 --> 00:16:39.043
I think is realistic.
00:16:39.104 --> 00:16:39.443
And again,
00:16:39.484 --> 00:16:41.684
depending on where you fall on those fault
00:16:41.725 --> 00:16:44.326
lines is probably going to dictate what it
00:16:44.407 --> 00:16:45.087
looks like.
00:16:45.890 --> 00:16:48.472
again um you know sort of the thread
00:16:48.533 --> 00:16:51.575
that that ties this to not just some
00:16:51.615 --> 00:16:54.738
like fanciful science fictiony future but
00:16:54.857 --> 00:16:57.340
also to an idea around like we're already
00:16:57.360 --> 00:16:59.701
dealing with some of this is yeah your
00:16:59.760 --> 00:17:02.062
care already where you are geographically
00:17:02.102 --> 00:17:05.546
already dictates your care pretty deeply
00:17:06.145 --> 00:17:09.147
um even places that have a better
00:17:09.248 --> 00:17:12.090
healthcare industry than we have like
00:17:14.281 --> 00:17:16.442
Europe, places in Europe like Canada,
00:17:17.083 --> 00:17:17.584
health care,
00:17:17.683 --> 00:17:20.105
mental health care can still vary wildly
00:17:20.265 --> 00:17:20.965
depending on where you're at
00:17:21.006 --> 00:17:21.726
geographically.
00:17:22.306 --> 00:17:23.826
Even if the resources and funding are
00:17:23.846 --> 00:17:25.748
there, are the specialists there?
00:17:26.088 --> 00:17:27.568
Have those specialists had access to the
00:17:27.608 --> 00:17:28.650
training that they need?
00:17:29.049 --> 00:17:30.211
Is the education there?
00:17:31.811 --> 00:17:32.071
And again,
00:17:32.412 --> 00:17:36.954
I think I hold space for like I'm
00:17:36.994 --> 00:17:40.136
reading this book about letting go of
00:17:40.156 --> 00:17:42.077
modernity and I've been in
00:17:43.432 --> 00:17:47.015
a field of practice where the school of
00:17:47.055 --> 00:17:48.635
thought that I come from around therapy is
00:17:48.797 --> 00:17:49.977
the postmodern therapies.
00:17:50.076 --> 00:17:51.038
It's narrative therapy,
00:17:52.098 --> 00:17:53.298
solution-focused therapy,
00:17:53.660 --> 00:17:54.700
and what I practice,
00:17:54.759 --> 00:17:56.141
just collaborative language therapy,
00:17:56.540 --> 00:17:58.282
which are all like postmodern already.
00:17:58.403 --> 00:17:58.742
So again,
00:17:59.063 --> 00:18:00.403
letting go of modernity has never really
00:18:00.443 --> 00:18:01.765
been a question for me.
00:18:02.724 --> 00:18:05.027
Modernity is old, right?
00:18:05.047 --> 00:18:07.548
This died in the nineteen fifties and we
00:18:07.588 --> 00:18:09.130
still have a civilization that's built on
00:18:09.190 --> 00:18:09.269
it.
00:18:10.029 --> 00:18:15.152
um so our bad or you know the
00:18:15.211 --> 00:18:18.252
leaders who came before us thanks boomers
00:18:18.272 --> 00:18:22.914
um but yeah it i i'm not trying
00:18:22.934 --> 00:18:24.714
to carry in modernity with saying
00:18:24.776 --> 00:18:27.336
education and those sorts of things um
00:18:27.395 --> 00:18:28.196
certainly moving to
00:18:29.625 --> 00:18:32.125
a less hierarchical authority system on
00:18:32.165 --> 00:18:33.865
like education gets to dictate.
00:18:34.266 --> 00:18:37.186
But more that like education exists and is
00:18:37.227 --> 00:18:40.087
available to everyone would make education
00:18:40.127 --> 00:18:40.407
better.
00:18:40.448 --> 00:18:41.907
The fact that we've put education behind a
00:18:41.948 --> 00:18:43.409
paywall is part of the problem.
00:18:43.449 --> 00:18:45.088
Why we have sort of this idea of
00:18:45.128 --> 00:18:47.549
like the ivory tower academics is because
00:18:47.589 --> 00:18:47.750
like
00:18:48.690 --> 00:18:50.871
yeah they don't have to interact with real
00:18:50.911 --> 00:18:53.372
people very often and once you get tenured
00:18:53.551 --> 00:18:55.492
you have real no no real impetus to
00:18:55.532 --> 00:18:57.614
like do something different you just crank
00:18:57.673 --> 00:18:59.474
out your new edition of your textbook
00:18:59.535 --> 00:19:01.076
every three years so you keep getting
00:19:01.115 --> 00:19:02.757
enough money to keep funding whatever
00:19:02.777 --> 00:19:04.517
you're personally interested in your
00:19:04.557 --> 00:19:06.417
research and you do that but like yeah
00:19:06.679 --> 00:19:07.219
academia
00:19:08.226 --> 00:19:09.467
is one of the structures,
00:19:09.728 --> 00:19:11.489
one of the institutions that would need to
00:19:12.210 --> 00:19:12.790
crumble.
00:19:13.592 --> 00:19:13.912
Again,
00:19:14.132 --> 00:19:15.973
I think there's lots of models of
00:19:16.094 --> 00:19:19.337
education that are not based in modernity,
00:19:19.397 --> 00:19:20.178
that are not
00:19:22.241 --> 00:19:24.763
limiting in that sort of way so i
00:19:24.784 --> 00:19:26.305
look that look at that as like a
00:19:26.325 --> 00:19:28.306
breaking open that could be really good
00:19:28.445 --> 00:19:31.567
again that fragmentation in in this
00:19:31.607 --> 00:19:34.269
hypothetical fragmented future i think
00:19:34.289 --> 00:19:35.951
it's questionable about what would happen
00:19:35.971 --> 00:19:37.811
with education again there are places
00:19:37.832 --> 00:19:39.433
where the resources are probably abundant
00:19:39.513 --> 00:19:42.015
enough to make that available for all and
00:19:42.315 --> 00:19:43.776
again the resources are abundant enough
00:19:43.796 --> 00:19:45.917
for everyone everywhere we have enough
00:19:45.958 --> 00:19:47.679
houses to house everyone we have enough
00:19:47.699 --> 00:19:49.880
food to feed everyone these things are
00:19:50.280 --> 00:19:51.682
policy choices not
00:19:52.461 --> 00:19:53.781
physical restrictions.
00:19:56.083 --> 00:19:59.663
But in some sort of future where the
00:19:59.703 --> 00:20:02.984
collapse accelerates or becomes more
00:20:03.265 --> 00:20:05.566
pronounced, who knows?
00:20:05.705 --> 00:20:05.945
Again,
00:20:07.145 --> 00:20:08.707
we have certain states here in America
00:20:08.767 --> 00:20:09.247
that are
00:20:10.256 --> 00:20:11.916
welfare states they are the red states
00:20:11.936 --> 00:20:12.916
they are the states that are in the
00:20:12.936 --> 00:20:14.877
middle of the country um that do not
00:20:14.917 --> 00:20:17.058
produce enough on their own to survive
00:20:17.078 --> 00:20:19.019
without federal support and that federal
00:20:19.038 --> 00:20:20.720
support is through taxing blue states like
00:20:21.019 --> 00:20:24.521
this isn't a mystery uh it just is
00:20:24.541 --> 00:20:25.622
something people don't like to talk about
00:20:25.701 --> 00:20:29.604
because our whole system is broken and if
00:20:29.624 --> 00:20:30.983
you talk about one thing you're like well
00:20:31.384 --> 00:20:32.625
we should fix that well like then we
00:20:32.644 --> 00:20:34.345
have to fix voting and get rid of
00:20:34.365 --> 00:20:35.445
the electoral college and a
00:20:40.349 --> 00:20:40.910
I don't know.
00:20:41.049 --> 00:20:41.130
And,
00:20:41.151 --> 00:20:42.951
and certainly I get concerned about the
00:20:42.971 --> 00:20:45.512
fragmentation on the rise of like with
00:20:45.573 --> 00:20:46.973
social media being available to sort of
00:20:46.993 --> 00:20:52.698
the rise of like pop psych wellness
00:20:52.738 --> 00:20:53.278
culture.
00:20:53.898 --> 00:20:54.739
Again, if,
00:20:55.118 --> 00:20:58.221
if the crumble turns into a collapse and
00:20:58.280 --> 00:20:59.682
we're left with fragmentation and what
00:20:59.701 --> 00:21:01.963
people are getting is some version of
00:21:02.003 --> 00:21:03.625
whatever the future TikTok will be.
00:21:04.204 --> 00:21:06.606
And it's not vetted, not verified, not,
00:21:07.386 --> 00:21:09.268
reliable information like you're going to
00:21:09.288 --> 00:21:11.728
have these wellness cults that don't need
00:21:11.748 --> 00:21:13.949
to be like organized around a particular
00:21:13.989 --> 00:21:16.589
religion um pop up and again you see
00:21:16.609 --> 00:21:18.351
this already when you study cultic
00:21:18.371 --> 00:21:20.131
behavior it's not just religions there's
00:21:20.151 --> 00:21:22.071
lots of wellness gurus that are running
00:21:22.152 --> 00:21:24.413
cults um there are cults that have been
00:21:24.452 --> 00:21:25.553
broken up that are
00:21:26.032 --> 00:21:27.673
wellness-based and not that.
00:21:28.294 --> 00:21:29.993
Certainly see a lot of yoga gurus,
00:21:30.493 --> 00:21:32.835
a lot of wellness gurus who are operating
00:21:33.075 --> 00:21:35.296
using a coercive control model like a cult
00:21:35.316 --> 00:21:35.816
leader would.
00:21:36.415 --> 00:21:37.096
So again,
00:21:37.256 --> 00:21:38.977
I think a lot of that stuff would
00:21:39.017 --> 00:21:39.656
pop up.
00:21:39.757 --> 00:21:41.238
What would that look like in some sort
00:21:41.258 --> 00:21:42.117
of future where
00:21:43.079 --> 00:21:45.142
tech was potentially either really
00:21:45.182 --> 00:21:46.643
restricted based on where you were or
00:21:46.722 --> 00:21:47.644
freely available.
00:21:47.763 --> 00:21:49.305
Again, I don't know.
00:21:49.365 --> 00:21:52.387
I tend to think making the internet free
00:21:52.428 --> 00:21:54.589
and open source and accessible to everyone
00:21:55.150 --> 00:21:56.171
is a good thing.
00:21:56.310 --> 00:21:56.510
Again,
00:21:57.872 --> 00:22:00.394
enforcing a scarcity that is not based in
00:22:00.414 --> 00:22:05.199
a reality does not make sense to me.
00:22:05.259 --> 00:22:05.499
So...
00:22:07.563 --> 00:22:09.023
yeah, I tend to think like, right,
00:22:09.044 --> 00:22:10.703
having education be open and accessible to
00:22:10.724 --> 00:22:11.025
everyone,
00:22:11.105 --> 00:22:14.046
having technology be open and accessible
00:22:14.066 --> 00:22:15.326
to everyone, like,
00:22:15.346 --> 00:22:16.767
I'm not dismissing that there would be
00:22:16.826 --> 00:22:18.028
problems with that.
00:22:18.167 --> 00:22:18.387
Again,
00:22:18.428 --> 00:22:20.608
I think the fragmentation would really
00:22:20.648 --> 00:22:21.750
exacerbate the difference,
00:22:21.869 --> 00:22:23.711
the problems in that depending on where
00:22:23.770 --> 00:22:24.391
you were,
00:22:24.471 --> 00:22:26.551
because that fragmentation would dictate
00:22:26.571 --> 00:22:28.633
what the resources look like.
00:22:28.673 --> 00:22:28.813
So
00:22:31.126 --> 00:22:32.067
Yeah, again,
00:22:32.126 --> 00:22:35.208
we're dealing with some of this already,
00:22:35.288 --> 00:22:36.509
not to belabor the point,
00:22:36.548 --> 00:22:37.729
but I'm going to keep making the point
00:22:37.769 --> 00:22:41.049
that there is no future that I think
00:22:41.130 --> 00:22:43.410
can fully get rid of what we're already
00:22:43.650 --> 00:22:44.391
dealing with.
00:22:44.730 --> 00:22:47.372
We love the metaphor of the phoenix rising
00:22:47.392 --> 00:22:48.852
from the ashes and something new being
00:22:48.872 --> 00:22:49.092
there,
00:22:49.132 --> 00:22:52.192
but that isn't what the history of
00:22:52.252 --> 00:22:55.473
humanity is, unfortunately.
00:22:57.193 --> 00:22:59.154
So what...
00:23:01.186 --> 00:23:04.347
our third sort of future and where I
00:23:04.387 --> 00:23:06.628
think I'm not done reading it yet,
00:23:06.689 --> 00:23:09.009
but hospicing modernity sort of lands is
00:23:09.150 --> 00:23:10.810
this, they use a composting metaphor,
00:23:11.911 --> 00:23:15.271
which is that this thing that has lived
00:23:15.311 --> 00:23:15.912
its life,
00:23:16.053 --> 00:23:20.594
served its time expired needs to be
00:23:20.634 --> 00:23:21.114
composted.
00:23:21.213 --> 00:23:23.535
It needs to be broken down into parts
00:23:23.755 --> 00:23:27.997
and let those parts sort of
00:23:29.622 --> 00:23:30.784
this isn't what the book says again,
00:23:30.805 --> 00:23:32.548
I haven't finished it, but like, uh,
00:23:32.708 --> 00:23:37.017
ferment and die and then grow into
00:23:37.057 --> 00:23:37.679
something new.
00:23:37.739 --> 00:23:39.823
Those resources be broke down so it can
00:23:39.843 --> 00:23:40.585
be somewhere else.
00:23:40.865 --> 00:23:40.986
Um,
00:23:43.586 --> 00:23:44.507
this is what I think a lot of
00:23:44.528 --> 00:23:45.468
people who are trying to be realistic
00:23:45.488 --> 00:23:46.568
about the future sort of land at is
00:23:46.588 --> 00:23:48.569
like, we can't prognosticate the future,
00:23:48.650 --> 00:23:49.009
which again,
00:23:49.269 --> 00:23:52.791
I don't disagree with the old system in
00:23:52.872 --> 00:23:54.653
this hypothetical future,
00:23:54.712 --> 00:23:56.953
the old system needs to break down enough
00:23:57.094 --> 00:23:58.394
or something new to emerge.
00:23:58.473 --> 00:23:58.815
And again,
00:23:59.234 --> 00:24:02.916
when you have colonial capitalism baked
00:24:02.977 --> 00:24:04.877
into pretty much everything we do,
00:24:05.798 --> 00:24:07.358
that is like a full breakdown of,
00:24:07.558 --> 00:24:10.681
of the systems and institutions that exist
00:24:10.740 --> 00:24:11.080
now.
00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:11.641
And again,
00:24:13.755 --> 00:24:14.776
I'm just not sure.
00:24:15.416 --> 00:24:15.596
That's,
00:24:16.038 --> 00:24:17.259
that's the future that makes me the most
00:24:17.299 --> 00:24:17.660
hopeful.
00:24:17.720 --> 00:24:19.001
That's also the one that I'm most
00:24:19.142 --> 00:24:20.083
skeptical about.
00:24:20.884 --> 00:24:23.126
Um, we haven't seen it.
00:24:23.326 --> 00:24:24.648
We see it in sci-fi.
00:24:24.669 --> 00:24:26.570
We see it in fiction all the time.
00:24:27.432 --> 00:24:27.633
Um,
00:24:29.460 --> 00:24:32.481
I think there's a version of this that
00:24:32.541 --> 00:24:33.162
exists,
00:24:33.342 --> 00:24:35.324
and I'm obviously biased here because this
00:24:35.344 --> 00:24:36.243
is where I've sort of landed
00:24:36.284 --> 00:24:37.164
professionally already,
00:24:38.224 --> 00:24:40.586
but is in a model that is moving
00:24:40.626 --> 00:24:42.268
away from diagnosis,
00:24:42.307 --> 00:24:44.108
is moving away from insurance codes,
00:24:45.490 --> 00:24:50.212
is trying to do things with science,
00:24:50.313 --> 00:24:53.075
with research, with academic rigor,
00:24:54.435 --> 00:24:55.096
but not
00:24:56.505 --> 00:24:58.586
to fit some sort of overall overarching
00:24:58.626 --> 00:25:00.468
narrative, but with health in mind.
00:25:01.189 --> 00:25:06.173
Healers healing people on a specific
00:25:06.212 --> 00:25:06.653
basis,
00:25:06.673 --> 00:25:08.275
but also healers paying attention to what
00:25:08.315 --> 00:25:10.356
the sickness says about the community,
00:25:10.537 --> 00:25:12.979
the society at large.
00:25:12.999 --> 00:25:15.101
And again, I think for a long time,
00:25:15.141 --> 00:25:16.701
psychology did a bad idea of that.
00:25:16.781 --> 00:25:17.323
For a long time,
00:25:17.343 --> 00:25:18.943
psychology worked really hard to
00:25:19.965 --> 00:25:21.747
pathologize individuals instead of
00:25:21.787 --> 00:25:22.287
systems.
00:25:22.386 --> 00:25:24.428
I think that has shifted in the recent
00:25:24.548 --> 00:25:27.689
future where psychology is saying, well,
00:25:27.709 --> 00:25:29.190
people are sick because the system is
00:25:29.210 --> 00:25:29.430
sick.
00:25:29.450 --> 00:25:31.111
It's really hard to be healthy in late
00:25:31.131 --> 00:25:32.030
stage capitalism.
00:25:34.692 --> 00:25:36.712
An acknowledgement that like suffering is
00:25:36.893 --> 00:25:38.933
real, but it's not diagnosis.
00:25:40.075 --> 00:25:42.935
And where we get to like,
00:25:43.997 --> 00:25:47.500
that's not we all hold hands and sing
00:25:48.200 --> 00:25:51.643
kumbaya around the maypole and ignore that
00:25:51.663 --> 00:25:54.825
people are unhappy or unwell again there's
00:25:54.845 --> 00:25:57.586
still healing that has to happen in that
00:25:58.386 --> 00:26:02.990
um but it's it's driven by the person
00:26:03.010 --> 00:26:05.172
by the community and again even when i
00:26:05.192 --> 00:26:06.593
say community it's so hard to get out
00:26:06.633 --> 00:26:08.535
of a hierarchical mindset of like well who
00:26:08.555 --> 00:26:10.215
decides um
00:26:12.125 --> 00:26:13.405
but having a community that is more
00:26:13.546 --> 00:26:16.007
egalitarian where everyone fits and gets
00:26:16.027 --> 00:26:17.347
to be appreciated because of their
00:26:17.367 --> 00:26:18.048
differences.
00:26:18.769 --> 00:26:19.930
Um,
00:26:20.049 --> 00:26:22.570
a society that has a space for misfits
00:26:22.790 --> 00:26:25.712
society that has space for those people
00:26:25.732 --> 00:26:27.894
who are divergent in some way,
00:26:27.933 --> 00:26:29.815
those people who are expansive in other
00:26:29.835 --> 00:26:30.255
ways.
00:26:31.076 --> 00:26:34.218
Um, and a society that,
00:26:34.397 --> 00:26:37.179
that works to encapsulate that, right.
00:26:37.219 --> 00:26:38.920
Like that has space and acknowledges that,
00:26:39.540 --> 00:26:39.641
um,
00:26:40.983 --> 00:26:42.325
I saw somebody talking the other day about
00:26:42.404 --> 00:26:44.365
universal basic income and just suggesting
00:26:44.385 --> 00:26:45.926
that not only is it about getting your
00:26:46.807 --> 00:26:47.367
needs met,
00:26:47.407 --> 00:26:49.969
but the world would change with having our
00:26:49.989 --> 00:26:50.750
basic needs met,
00:26:50.809 --> 00:26:52.990
not because of our needs being met,
00:26:53.010 --> 00:26:54.231
but because we could do the things that
00:26:54.251 --> 00:26:55.192
we actually want to pursue.
00:26:55.551 --> 00:26:57.614
There's so many people who aren't pursuing
00:26:57.634 --> 00:26:58.153
their dreams,
00:26:58.173 --> 00:26:59.315
so many people who aren't doing the things
00:26:59.335 --> 00:27:00.914
that they're actually genuinely interested
00:27:00.974 --> 00:27:03.636
in, but the world's just a duller place.
00:27:03.737 --> 00:27:07.001
place because of that that there's so much
00:27:07.163 --> 00:27:09.586
joy and love and beauty that is missing
00:27:09.626 --> 00:27:11.549
because people can't pursue what they're
00:27:11.569 --> 00:27:15.096
actually interested in and again I think
00:27:17.403 --> 00:27:19.044
that makes me optimistic.
00:27:19.064 --> 00:27:19.703
I'm interested.
00:27:20.085 --> 00:27:21.125
I'm certainly interested in that future.
00:27:21.144 --> 00:27:21.505
Because again,
00:27:21.545 --> 00:27:22.726
I think there's people who would be
00:27:22.806 --> 00:27:24.047
interested in helping and there are people
00:27:24.067 --> 00:27:26.228
who would be interested in healing others
00:27:26.909 --> 00:27:28.128
and helping others heal.
00:27:29.130 --> 00:27:31.310
But they can't because of their own stuff
00:27:31.371 --> 00:27:33.152
or their own worries or imposter syndrome.
00:27:33.192 --> 00:27:34.272
They don't have the resources.
00:27:34.292 --> 00:27:35.473
They weren't allowed to
00:27:36.808 --> 00:27:38.510
go to school or get credentialed in
00:27:38.550 --> 00:27:40.291
certain ways you know there's a lot of
00:27:40.311 --> 00:27:41.553
things that i think in the way of
00:27:42.433 --> 00:27:44.836
of that but i'm i'm also wary because
00:27:44.875 --> 00:27:46.196
i see the older generation doing this
00:27:46.278 --> 00:27:47.959
constantly and it's making me a little bit
00:27:47.999 --> 00:27:51.061
batty as a millennial um just saying like
00:27:51.201 --> 00:27:54.044
oh young people will solve it right where
00:27:54.204 --> 00:27:57.428
where there's this idea of like instead of
00:27:57.468 --> 00:27:59.429
taking any accountability for anything
00:27:59.489 --> 00:28:00.790
just sort of saying like i'm optimistic
00:28:00.810 --> 00:28:02.092
about the future because i talk to young
00:28:02.152 --> 00:28:02.392
people
00:28:03.561 --> 00:28:05.423
like i've been there right young people
00:28:05.442 --> 00:28:07.344
have been a lifeline to to my optimism
00:28:07.525 --> 00:28:09.266
at various points in especially around
00:28:09.286 --> 00:28:11.866
climate change um because they are more
00:28:12.047 --> 00:28:13.567
serious about it and they are also more
00:28:13.627 --> 00:28:15.169
optimistic about it than i tend to be
00:28:16.089 --> 00:28:18.530
but um because i'm cynical old man not
00:28:18.550 --> 00:28:22.554
because i'm right and they're wrong um but
00:28:22.594 --> 00:28:24.154
again there needs to be like an
00:28:25.832 --> 00:28:27.173
you can't just be like, oh,
00:28:27.272 --> 00:28:29.555
young people will figure out how data
00:28:29.595 --> 00:28:32.636
centers won't destroy the environment and
00:28:32.656 --> 00:28:33.917
then still use AI.
00:28:33.958 --> 00:28:38.299
You can't ignore the pollution and the
00:28:38.340 --> 00:28:40.981
techno-fascists that are being allowed to
00:28:41.061 --> 00:28:42.242
run amok and be like,
00:28:42.502 --> 00:28:43.723
young people will figure it out.
00:28:45.826 --> 00:28:46.266
So again,
00:28:46.346 --> 00:28:48.406
I don't want to be so amorphous and
00:28:48.467 --> 00:28:50.048
formless about some potential future and
00:28:50.087 --> 00:28:50.949
say, well,
00:28:51.608 --> 00:28:53.590
that's just for our kids and grandkids to
00:28:53.611 --> 00:28:53.971
figure out.
00:28:53.990 --> 00:28:55.251
Because I think that's,
00:28:56.556 --> 00:28:59.477
irresponsible to the future generations i
00:28:59.517 --> 00:29:01.357
think we do need to sit in this
00:29:01.397 --> 00:29:02.998
discomfort of like oh this thing is
00:29:03.097 --> 00:29:04.858
amorphous how can we shape it a little
00:29:04.898 --> 00:29:08.400
bit more um how can we support it
00:29:08.579 --> 00:29:13.602
as it transforms and whatever else it
00:29:13.622 --> 00:29:15.682
needs to do how it incubates and
00:29:17.067 --> 00:29:19.930
whatever molting and growing and shaping
00:29:19.990 --> 00:29:22.191
needs to happen like what would support
00:29:22.230 --> 00:29:24.571
for that look like and again it's very
00:29:24.771 --> 00:29:26.834
sort of um i don't say it's so
00:29:26.874 --> 00:29:28.355
mysterious that we can't dictate it i
00:29:28.394 --> 00:29:31.056
think a lot of the mental health space
00:29:31.615 --> 00:29:33.538
that's not even true i think i'm on
00:29:33.577 --> 00:29:37.180
an exceptional side of that not like look
00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:38.339
at me i'm doing such great work but
00:29:38.559 --> 00:29:40.701
i don't think it's mainstream yet to
00:29:40.741 --> 00:29:43.542
criticize the system and call that out and
00:29:43.603 --> 00:29:45.865
move to a more community-based practice um
00:29:46.936 --> 00:29:47.356
Because again,
00:29:47.376 --> 00:29:48.557
we're not out of capitalism yet.
00:29:48.616 --> 00:29:51.597
And that is the overarching system.
00:29:51.798 --> 00:29:53.298
I think a lot of therapists who are
00:29:53.338 --> 00:29:55.900
decolonizing their work are doing so where
00:29:55.920 --> 00:29:57.099
they're moving away from diagnosis.
00:29:57.119 --> 00:29:58.940
They're moving away from an
00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:00.040
impairment-based model.
00:30:00.060 --> 00:30:02.480
They're calling out ableism that they see
00:30:03.801 --> 00:30:04.862
and moving away from that.
00:30:04.942 --> 00:30:08.022
But also therapists still have to pay rent
00:30:08.143 --> 00:30:08.923
for their buildings,
00:30:08.942 --> 00:30:11.423
still have to make their own personal ends
00:30:11.523 --> 00:30:11.763
meet.
00:30:12.403 --> 00:30:14.285
And so we're not quite at a point
00:30:14.345 --> 00:30:15.684
where, you know,
00:30:16.846 --> 00:30:19.086
decolonizing is really important work and
00:30:19.126 --> 00:30:20.946
more therapists need to be doing it and
00:30:22.188 --> 00:30:24.548
we're still living under an imperialistic
00:30:24.728 --> 00:30:30.069
colonized system um multiple systems uh
00:30:30.089 --> 00:30:31.431
and so it's it's hard right like it's
00:30:31.471 --> 00:30:33.990
hard to say yes we can be moving
00:30:34.010 --> 00:30:35.632
towards a community-based model and
00:30:38.734 --> 00:30:39.996
lot of people are still doing individual
00:30:40.016 --> 00:30:41.497
therapy a lot of people are running groups
00:30:41.537 --> 00:30:43.598
and doing other things and you have to
00:30:43.618 --> 00:30:44.880
charge for that stuff because you have to
00:30:44.900 --> 00:30:48.162
pay your own bills so again i mean
00:30:48.221 --> 00:30:49.903
i'm not putting it on therapists to solve
00:30:49.923 --> 00:30:52.526
the problems of the world obviously there
00:30:52.546 --> 00:30:54.467
are other forces at work and other
00:30:55.027 --> 00:30:56.628
institutions that need to do that work to
00:30:56.689 --> 00:31:00.731
set up healers nurses doctors surgeons
00:31:02.170 --> 00:31:04.893
acupuncturists therapists again like
00:31:05.733 --> 00:31:08.557
healers writ large to do that healers are
00:31:09.377 --> 00:31:12.161
you know stemming the top the the blood
00:31:12.201 --> 00:31:15.365
flow of these open wounds these death by
00:31:15.384 --> 00:31:18.067
a thousand cuts of these things um
00:31:19.130 --> 00:31:21.391
But the system, again, I don't know.
00:31:22.310 --> 00:31:23.090
That sounds bad to be like,
00:31:23.111 --> 00:31:24.050
we need to let it die.
00:31:24.590 --> 00:31:24.791
Again,
00:31:24.832 --> 00:31:26.251
because we're not serving the system.
00:31:26.291 --> 00:31:27.412
We're serving individuals who are
00:31:27.432 --> 00:31:28.271
suffering under the system.
00:31:28.311 --> 00:31:29.712
But again,
00:31:30.053 --> 00:31:32.032
I think this is the stuff that I'm
00:31:32.073 --> 00:31:33.273
drawn the most to because I think it
00:31:33.314 --> 00:31:37.035
feels the most realistic in a hopeful
00:31:37.075 --> 00:31:37.815
sense, right?
00:31:40.476 --> 00:31:43.115
That the system can be laid to rest
00:31:43.336 --> 00:31:44.916
and something else can take its place.
00:31:47.372 --> 00:31:49.375
you know, I talk about, uh,
00:31:49.414 --> 00:31:51.577
in different places with different
00:31:51.738 --> 00:31:53.921
indigenous folks that I work with and
00:31:53.941 --> 00:31:55.824
other therapists who have that indigenous
00:31:55.864 --> 00:31:57.105
heritage talking about like,
00:31:57.125 --> 00:31:59.229
do I'd seen and being able to appreciate
00:31:59.749 --> 00:32:02.373
indigenous practices and knowledge, um,
00:32:03.193 --> 00:32:06.535
cultural knowledge historical knowledge uh
00:32:06.634 --> 00:32:08.275
oral traditions that are passed down that
00:32:08.315 --> 00:32:10.635
are living contextual meaning making
00:32:10.695 --> 00:32:14.616
processes and the scientific method right
00:32:14.676 --> 00:32:17.656
like there's there's space for these
00:32:17.696 --> 00:32:20.077
things and again it's not who gets to
00:32:20.097 --> 00:32:23.117
be right and claim authority and be in
00:32:23.178 --> 00:32:24.878
charge and have the power but like how
00:32:24.939 --> 00:32:25.318
do we
00:32:25.999 --> 00:32:27.640
make space for these things to work in
00:32:27.700 --> 00:32:28.359
conjunction?
00:32:28.420 --> 00:32:30.480
How do we have feedback loops and
00:32:30.560 --> 00:32:33.060
recursive systems that allow for these
00:32:33.080 --> 00:32:36.142
things to to work together?
00:32:36.182 --> 00:32:36.502
And again,
00:32:36.803 --> 00:32:39.564
I think a community sort of model makes
00:32:39.584 --> 00:32:40.903
that the most likely.
00:32:43.285 --> 00:32:44.565
But our communities are gonna have to look
00:32:44.585 --> 00:32:47.326
a lot different.
00:32:47.346 --> 00:32:48.886
She gets into a whole nother episode of
00:32:48.926 --> 00:32:49.507
podcast.
00:32:50.227 --> 00:32:52.508
How do how do humans work in community?
00:32:54.215 --> 00:32:55.405
historically, kind of poorly.
00:33:01.222 --> 00:33:04.605
Because we don't often have the bottom-up
00:33:04.806 --> 00:33:05.806
building happening.
00:33:06.125 --> 00:33:08.307
There's been too much top-down just across
00:33:08.327 --> 00:33:09.328
the board, across history.
00:33:11.650 --> 00:33:14.712
But that's also why a couple times a
00:33:14.752 --> 00:33:15.992
week I have people who are complaining
00:33:16.032 --> 00:33:17.515
about their employment or their bosses or
00:33:17.615 --> 00:33:18.154
whomever, and I'm like, yeah,
00:33:18.174 --> 00:33:19.476
there just aren't a lot of good leaders
00:33:19.516 --> 00:33:22.498
in the world because we really haven't
00:33:22.518 --> 00:33:29.563
done enough to have a cohesive response to
00:33:29.623 --> 00:33:30.384
top-down leadership.
00:33:31.499 --> 00:33:32.606
I mean, the models exist.
00:33:32.646 --> 00:33:33.130
They're out there.
00:33:33.150 --> 00:33:34.337
I'm not saying people haven't done the
00:33:34.378 --> 00:33:34.559
work.
00:33:36.249 --> 00:33:36.588
I don't know.
00:33:37.068 --> 00:33:37.969
I don't know what needs to happen there.
00:33:38.368 --> 00:33:39.190
But like, you know,
00:33:39.609 --> 00:33:41.250
this is supposed to be a hopeful episode,
00:33:41.269 --> 00:33:41.430
right?
00:33:41.470 --> 00:33:43.230
This is the stuff that tends to keep
00:33:43.269 --> 00:33:43.490
me up.
00:33:43.809 --> 00:33:44.589
I don't want to say it keeps me
00:33:44.650 --> 00:33:44.970
up at night.
00:33:45.250 --> 00:33:46.631
I would be lying to you if I
00:33:46.671 --> 00:33:46.931
said that.
00:33:46.990 --> 00:33:48.290
This is the stuff that my brain chews
00:33:48.330 --> 00:33:50.330
on the most and gets frustrated by and
00:33:50.351 --> 00:33:54.031
has the least happy outlet with is how
00:33:54.051 --> 00:33:58.292
do individuals shape and change systems?
00:33:58.393 --> 00:33:58.613
And like,
00:33:58.712 --> 00:34:00.212
I know the answer is you can't.
00:34:00.292 --> 00:34:01.752
You have to collaborate.
00:34:01.772 --> 00:34:05.374
You have to organize groups of people
00:34:07.098 --> 00:34:08.940
either become their own systems or groups
00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:10.842
of people organize and change the systems
00:34:10.862 --> 00:34:11.463
that exist.
00:34:12.284 --> 00:34:13.125
So, you know,
00:34:14.106 --> 00:34:16.387
when you see multiple warehouse fires
00:34:16.427 --> 00:34:19.590
going on and some cohesive messaging
00:34:19.690 --> 00:34:20.231
around,
00:34:22.313 --> 00:34:24.255
you need to pay us a livable wage.
00:34:25.717 --> 00:34:29.300
It does seem that something is, is,
00:34:30.733 --> 00:34:32.534
shifting that there is a change that
00:34:32.574 --> 00:34:35.317
people are organizing um people are
00:34:35.376 --> 00:34:37.097
mobilizing is perhaps more accurate than
00:34:37.137 --> 00:34:38.637
people are organizing but there are there
00:34:38.677 --> 00:34:41.420
is organization available and so again i
00:34:41.460 --> 00:34:43.501
think that shift needs to be there i
00:34:43.521 --> 00:34:47.503
think mental health can certainly be one
00:34:47.722 --> 00:34:50.465
helpful curb in getting people to head
00:34:50.485 --> 00:34:52.286
that direction right which is to say like
00:34:53.606 --> 00:34:54.507
there's a future that is
00:34:56.235 --> 00:34:57.775
equally, if not more, authoritarian.
00:34:57.795 --> 00:34:59.516
There is a future that is deeply fractured
00:35:00.217 --> 00:35:00.838
and unhelpful.
00:35:00.898 --> 00:35:02.237
And then there's a future that is
00:35:03.679 --> 00:35:08.402
cohesive, that is expansive.
00:35:08.422 --> 00:35:10.523
And that would be lovely, right?
00:35:11.364 --> 00:35:12.423
So, look at me,
00:35:13.525 --> 00:35:16.106
ending on optimism of cohesive
00:35:16.226 --> 00:35:16.847
expansiveness.
00:35:16.867 --> 00:35:18.867
I don't even know if those words go
00:35:18.887 --> 00:35:20.809
together.
00:35:20.829 --> 00:35:22.170
This is why I don't like to prognosticate.
00:35:25.351 --> 00:35:25.592
Yeah.
00:35:26.385 --> 00:35:28.226
So, you know, again, I mean,
00:35:28.585 --> 00:35:30.086
I see a lot of work around this
00:35:30.106 --> 00:35:30.407
stuff.
00:35:30.746 --> 00:35:31.367
It exists.
00:35:31.427 --> 00:35:32.748
I think it is still in the minority,
00:35:32.768 --> 00:35:33.827
especially in the mental health field of
00:35:33.847 --> 00:35:35.668
people who are moving in this space.
00:35:35.708 --> 00:35:38.750
But there are, you know,
00:35:39.070 --> 00:35:40.490
I'll just use like our psych directories.
00:35:40.530 --> 00:35:41.972
Like psychology today is still the number
00:35:42.112 --> 00:35:43.192
one psych directory,
00:35:43.271 --> 00:35:44.492
even though most therapists know
00:35:44.512 --> 00:35:45.313
psychology.
00:35:45.333 --> 00:35:46.353
I don't want to say most therapists.
00:35:46.673 --> 00:35:48.894
The therapists that I all talk to that
00:35:48.914 --> 00:35:50.777
are in my networks know it's not a
00:35:50.797 --> 00:35:51.396
good company.
00:35:51.856 --> 00:35:52.898
That's not even true because a lot of
00:35:52.938 --> 00:35:54.338
therapists I have in my network aren't
00:35:54.358 --> 00:35:56.119
aware of how bad of a company it
00:35:56.199 --> 00:35:56.420
is.
00:35:58.362 --> 00:35:59.643
So then people move off and they go
00:35:59.663 --> 00:36:01.483
to something else that's more aligned,
00:36:02.184 --> 00:36:03.304
inclusive therapists,
00:36:03.445 --> 00:36:05.206
and a lot of directories that are popping
00:36:05.266 --> 00:36:07.807
up on specific issues,
00:36:07.847 --> 00:36:09.688
which I think is great and needed and
00:36:09.829 --> 00:36:12.331
also can't compete in the current market
00:36:12.351 --> 00:36:14.992
with what we have for algorithm run.
00:36:16.273 --> 00:36:17.514
SEO and stuff like that.
00:36:17.574 --> 00:36:23.998
We're still running the rat race with
00:36:24.018 --> 00:36:25.079
stuff like that.
00:36:27.340 --> 00:36:27.681
But yes,
00:36:27.721 --> 00:36:29.722
there are other options out there that are
00:36:29.742 --> 00:36:31.063
more ethically aligned and more
00:36:31.182 --> 00:36:32.603
community-based, values-based.
00:36:32.623 --> 00:36:35.766
And it's still just in the minority.
00:36:35.865 --> 00:36:37.206
So again,
00:36:37.347 --> 00:36:39.688
it's a financial system around late-stage
00:36:39.728 --> 00:36:40.369
capitalism.
00:36:40.568 --> 00:36:43.371
It is a paradigm shift around
00:36:44.414 --> 00:36:45.594
you know, also financial,
00:36:46.414 --> 00:36:47.974
moving away from insurance companies'
00:36:48.054 --> 00:36:49.036
reimbursement rates.
00:36:49.175 --> 00:36:50.697
It's a paradigm shift around moving away
00:36:50.717 --> 00:36:51.956
from a deficit-based model.
00:36:55.557 --> 00:36:56.858
So there are all these different factors
00:36:56.898 --> 00:36:58.860
that sort of have to coalesce
00:37:00.170 --> 00:37:03.293
and meet there needs to be a convergence
00:37:03.672 --> 00:37:05.353
and again whether that's a collapse or a
00:37:05.393 --> 00:37:07.375
crumble or whatever that looks like some
00:37:07.394 --> 00:37:10.876
of that system stuff needs to shift but
00:37:11.016 --> 00:37:13.257
like mental health needs to be better
00:37:13.398 --> 00:37:16.219
prepared than it is to meet that shift
00:37:16.398 --> 00:37:19.721
and work with it instead of upholding
00:37:20.847 --> 00:37:22.768
old systems instead of defending the
00:37:22.829 --> 00:37:25.751
empire that has existed um and we're not
00:37:26.110 --> 00:37:28.052
we're we're not we're still spending time
00:37:28.092 --> 00:37:30.974
teaching freud and and gestalt therapies
00:37:31.014 --> 00:37:32.855
and all this other nonsense that is old
00:37:32.914 --> 00:37:34.516
and is historically relevant but not
00:37:34.556 --> 00:37:36.938
helpful to people today come at me
00:37:37.338 --> 00:37:39.418
psychodynamic therapists and gestalt
00:37:39.458 --> 00:37:44.061
practitioners like be better um so again
00:37:44.081 --> 00:37:46.063
and that's another institution then right
00:37:46.083 --> 00:37:47.744
that's education that has to shift so
00:37:48.085 --> 00:37:50.246
there's a lot of moving parts um
00:37:51.543 --> 00:37:52.764
That make it feel very complex,
00:37:52.804 --> 00:37:53.925
but there were a lot of moving parts
00:37:54.246 --> 00:37:55.588
to get here in the first place.
00:37:55.628 --> 00:37:57.550
It wasn't some inevitability that this is
00:37:57.570 --> 00:37:58.150
where we ended up.
00:37:58.190 --> 00:38:00.634
There were movements and shifts and
00:38:00.673 --> 00:38:06.059
changes in organization to nudge and in
00:38:06.079 --> 00:38:07.061
some cases coerce.
00:38:07.864 --> 00:38:09.585
things to be the way they are now.
00:38:09.644 --> 00:38:10.304
And again,
00:38:10.364 --> 00:38:12.306
it's organization and mobilization to
00:38:12.987 --> 00:38:15.347
shift and nudge and coerce things to be
00:38:15.427 --> 00:38:18.369
the better version that they could be in
00:38:19.130 --> 00:38:21.331
hopefully not too long of a future.
00:38:23.032 --> 00:38:25.452
Not too long away, not too far away.
00:38:25.713 --> 00:38:26.853
Not that the future ends quickly,
00:38:26.893 --> 00:38:29.434
but that we get to that future quickly.
00:38:30.355 --> 00:38:31.275
Optimism!
00:38:32.621 --> 00:38:33.081
We're doing it.
00:38:33.121 --> 00:38:33.983
We tried it for a week.
00:38:34.402 --> 00:38:35.164
Likely next week.
00:38:36.043 --> 00:38:37.065
We won't be there still.
00:38:37.664 --> 00:38:38.025
We'll see.
00:38:40.827 --> 00:38:41.148
But yeah,
00:38:41.407 --> 00:38:44.048
we'll be back next week with another new
00:38:44.210 --> 00:38:44.949
episode.
00:38:45.851 --> 00:38:46.911
Working on some guests.
00:38:46.971 --> 00:38:48.952
I'm being casual with my scheduling.
00:38:48.992 --> 00:38:51.653
I sort of like some breaks here and
00:38:51.673 --> 00:38:52.574
there with guests.
00:38:52.635 --> 00:38:54.356
And I like having guests on because I
00:38:54.376 --> 00:38:55.376
don't like hearing myself talk.
00:38:56.086 --> 00:38:59.248
whole time that's for sure so uh yeah
00:38:59.507 --> 00:39:00.949
you know you would think after however
00:39:00.989 --> 00:39:02.648
many episodes we'd have it figured out but
00:39:03.130 --> 00:39:05.250
we remain fluid over here at your
00:39:05.289 --> 00:39:07.951
therapist needs therapy we remain in
00:39:07.971 --> 00:39:13.572
therapy ourselves also optimism um yeah
00:39:13.873 --> 00:39:15.653
we'll be back next week with another new
00:39:15.833 --> 00:39:17.355
episode take care of yourself take care
00:39:17.375 --> 00:39:17.815
somebody else