Your Therapist Needs Therapy
Everyone needs help with their mental health, even mental health professionals. Join us as we have your therapist take a seat on the couch to talk about their own mental health journey!
Your Therapist Needs Therapy
Your Therapist Needs Therapy 153 - The High Priests of Therapy
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
This week Jeremy takes a look at what happens when therapeutic frameworks evolve from useful models into systems of certainty. Jeremy uses Internal Family Systems (IFS) founder Richard Schwartz (among others) as an example of how authority, insider language, and resistance to criticism can emerge in therapy communities just as they do in religious and ideological movements. Rather than asking whether a popular therapy modality is a bit culty, we ask the more important question of what happens when curiosity gives way to dogma, and how to respond when therapists begin acting more like prophets than practitioners.
To learn more about the upcoming retreat for religious trauma survivors head here, and you can donate at this link!
As always, Jeremy has all his practice info at Wellness with Jer, and you can find him on Instagram and YouTube. You can donate directly to support religious trauma survivors here. We appreciate support from likes, follows, and shares as well! None of my online work would be possible without my media maven Kenny, so check out their work as well at kenlingdesign.com
-----
Podcasts about therapy do not replace actual therapy, and listening to a podcast about therapy does not signify a therapeutic relationship.If you or someone you know is in crisis please call or text the nationwide crisis line at 988, or text HELLO to 741741. The Trevor Project has a crisis line for LGBTQ+ young people that can be reached by texting 678678.
Hello,
00:00:08.356 --> 00:00:09.980
and welcome to another edition of Your
00:00:10.019 --> 00:00:11.522
Therapist Needs Therapy.
00:00:11.702 --> 00:00:13.326
I'm your host, Jeremy Schumacher.
00:00:13.788 --> 00:00:15.130
I'm a licensed marriage and family
00:00:15.150 --> 00:00:15.730
therapist.
00:00:17.167 --> 00:00:18.329
Today,
00:00:19.149 --> 00:00:21.310
we're gonna talk about something that
00:00:21.350 --> 00:00:22.652
popped up for me recently.
00:00:24.612 --> 00:00:27.234
I think my preambles are often off topic
00:00:27.274 --> 00:00:28.114
and maybe unhelpful,
00:00:28.394 --> 00:00:31.077
but this one might be somewhat helpful to
00:00:31.117 --> 00:00:32.798
at least frame why I'm talking about this.
00:00:33.359 --> 00:00:36.780
I recently saw a organization that I'm a
00:00:36.841 --> 00:00:39.182
part of that I appreciate, that I like,
00:00:40.203 --> 00:00:44.127
uh get very excited about a very famous
00:00:44.186 --> 00:00:45.828
therapist they were going to have come and
00:00:45.927 --> 00:00:49.591
talk and my response was yuck do people
00:00:49.631 --> 00:00:51.652
not know that's not somebody we should
00:00:51.673 --> 00:00:56.656
still be celebrating and you know if if
00:00:56.697 --> 00:00:58.418
you struggle to believe that i'm fun at
00:00:58.478 --> 00:01:01.401
parties i'm not i'm an introvert i don't
00:01:01.441 --> 00:01:02.781
go to parties um
00:01:04.450 --> 00:01:06.352
I am wary of sort of the purity
00:01:06.412 --> 00:01:08.793
test, especially among,
00:01:08.953 --> 00:01:12.376
I would say like the American left that
00:01:12.415 --> 00:01:14.037
I think is unsustainable.
00:01:14.257 --> 00:01:18.058
And one of the things with therapy and
00:01:18.138 --> 00:01:20.680
therapists not being awesome people all of
00:01:20.721 --> 00:01:24.763
the time is it gets a little dicey
00:01:24.843 --> 00:01:25.302
when like,
00:01:25.423 --> 00:01:28.105
I also don't think that highly of that
00:01:28.204 --> 00:01:29.406
therapist's work.
00:01:30.475 --> 00:01:33.941
And also there's a ton of nuance to
00:01:33.960 --> 00:01:35.123
this, right?
00:01:35.403 --> 00:01:37.647
And so it's more nuanced than like,
00:01:37.686 --> 00:01:39.469
don't throw the baby out with the bath
00:01:39.510 --> 00:01:40.992
water, which is some sort of,
00:01:42.051 --> 00:01:42.450
I don't know,
00:01:42.570 --> 00:01:44.572
old timey idiom that we've kept around.
00:01:45.512 --> 00:01:47.972
And also like there's really good
00:01:48.033 --> 00:01:48.813
critiques,
00:01:48.933 --> 00:01:53.194
especially of therapists who become gurus
00:01:54.355 --> 00:01:58.215
or gurus who become church leaders or
00:01:58.296 --> 00:02:01.376
church leaders who become cult leaders or
00:02:01.516 --> 00:02:03.697
anybody who starts to love the smell of
00:02:03.718 --> 00:02:06.039
their own farts a bit too much and
00:02:06.138 --> 00:02:06.918
thinks that,
00:02:07.778 --> 00:02:11.281
they singularly have unlocked some sort of
00:02:11.640 --> 00:02:13.921
version of the capital T truth.
00:02:14.663 --> 00:02:15.782
And look, myself included,
00:02:15.962 --> 00:02:18.144
I put hours of content out on the
00:02:18.183 --> 00:02:19.944
internet every single week.
00:02:20.605 --> 00:02:23.247
And like, I don't think that's warranted.
00:02:25.674 --> 00:02:27.373
It would be a bad cult leader because
00:02:27.655 --> 00:02:28.495
I'm like, I don't know.
00:02:28.814 --> 00:02:29.555
Fuck do I know?
00:02:29.594 --> 00:02:30.634
Why is anyone listening to me?
00:02:31.195 --> 00:02:32.716
Why do I put hours of content out?
00:02:32.776 --> 00:02:33.915
I've been pretty clear about that.
00:02:34.036 --> 00:02:36.336
Because if one person stops listening to
00:02:36.356 --> 00:02:38.237
Joe Rogan and listens to me instead,
00:02:38.318 --> 00:02:40.157
then the world is a better place.
00:02:41.479 --> 00:02:44.719
I was socialized as a straight white male.
00:02:45.539 --> 00:02:48.020
And while two of those things are still
00:02:48.080 --> 00:02:49.341
true, I...
00:02:51.674 --> 00:02:53.414
I guess I still have that white guy
00:02:53.495 --> 00:02:55.876
privilege confidence where I put out a lot
00:02:55.915 --> 00:03:01.878
of content and hopefully it maintains more
00:03:01.919 --> 00:03:07.181
nuance and is backed by good science than
00:03:07.221 --> 00:03:09.181
a lot of other guys who have the
00:03:09.241 --> 00:03:11.723
confidence and absolutely have not earned
00:03:11.763 --> 00:03:12.843
it or deserve it.
00:03:14.064 --> 00:03:16.485
I would love to live in a world
00:03:16.626 --> 00:03:19.668
where everybody has their basic needs met
00:03:19.867 --> 00:03:21.549
and I don't have to put out stuff
00:03:21.568 --> 00:03:23.129
like this for free because people can just
00:03:23.169 --> 00:03:24.151
afford to go to therapy.
00:03:24.830 --> 00:03:25.951
That would be cool.
00:03:26.032 --> 00:03:27.793
Anyway, see, now we're off topic.
00:03:28.052 --> 00:03:30.913
My preamble was on point for a minute
00:03:30.954 --> 00:03:32.615
and a half and then a minute and
00:03:32.634 --> 00:03:33.735
a half, not so much.
00:03:34.776 --> 00:03:36.477
Is IFS a cult?
00:03:36.776 --> 00:03:37.437
Seems like...
00:03:38.615 --> 00:03:41.836
Too risky of a headline to put in
00:03:41.877 --> 00:03:44.237
the title for legal reasons.
00:03:46.799 --> 00:03:47.218
And also,
00:03:47.500 --> 00:03:49.700
I think that's the wrong question to be
00:03:49.881 --> 00:03:50.281
asking.
00:03:51.161 --> 00:03:58.625
I am interested in why we,
00:03:58.705 --> 00:03:59.265
as a culture...
00:04:01.743 --> 00:04:02.865
Speaking of therapists here,
00:04:02.884 --> 00:04:04.605
like a community of therapists,
00:04:04.665 --> 00:04:07.167
a culture of therapists, why do we,
00:04:07.287 --> 00:04:10.209
who by and large hold that evidence-based
00:04:10.229 --> 00:04:11.508
practices are important,
00:04:12.530 --> 00:04:15.050
continue to entertain people who don't
00:04:15.311 --> 00:04:18.413
have evidence-based practices?
00:04:18.593 --> 00:04:21.375
And why do we speak out against systems
00:04:21.394 --> 00:04:23.475
that then we continue to participate in as
00:04:23.555 --> 00:04:26.536
if that won't cause some sort of moral
00:04:26.637 --> 00:04:27.757
injury for us?
00:04:29.593 --> 00:04:31.214
So I don't want to do an episode
00:04:31.235 --> 00:04:34.117
just taking shots at IFS because honestly,
00:04:34.257 --> 00:04:36.119
I think IFS is super helpful to a
00:04:36.178 --> 00:04:36.838
ton of people.
00:04:37.399 --> 00:04:39.240
I think the way that IFS is helpful
00:04:39.341 --> 00:04:41.062
is people are not practicing it the way
00:04:41.081 --> 00:04:43.403
that Richard Schwartz, the creator of IFS,
00:04:43.543 --> 00:04:44.644
wants people to practice.
00:04:44.665 --> 00:04:46.846
And I think that's okay.
00:04:47.266 --> 00:04:50.449
I would argue that's good because he seems
00:04:51.889 --> 00:04:52.490
not great.
00:04:52.850 --> 00:04:54.572
I saw him speak once way back in
00:04:54.612 --> 00:04:57.834
the day before he was super famous.
00:04:58.194 --> 00:04:59.115
And I was like, well,
00:05:02.723 --> 00:05:03.103
All right.
00:05:03.242 --> 00:05:06.384
And yeah, basically,
00:05:07.624 --> 00:05:08.605
I've said this in a bunch of other
00:05:08.625 --> 00:05:08.925
places.
00:05:08.964 --> 00:05:09.704
I will say it here.
00:05:09.785 --> 00:05:11.964
My stance on IFS is it is narrative
00:05:12.004 --> 00:05:13.685
therapy for people who are bad at coming
00:05:13.706 --> 00:05:16.466
up with their own metaphors.
00:05:16.485 --> 00:05:18.786
And all my lovely IFS therapists who I
00:05:18.807 --> 00:05:20.826
am friends with who have benefited from
00:05:20.987 --> 00:05:23.687
IFS therapy on their own can be offended
00:05:23.827 --> 00:05:24.367
at that.
00:05:26.576 --> 00:05:29.838
um in a way that is fine because
00:05:29.899 --> 00:05:32.600
i i don't mean it as judgment i
00:05:32.641 --> 00:05:34.961
mean it as like yeah if coming up
00:05:34.982 --> 00:05:37.122
with metaphors on the fly and doing all
00:05:37.142 --> 00:05:40.764
that stuff that narrative therapy does
00:05:40.884 --> 00:05:43.487
really well if that is unwieldy to you
00:05:43.507 --> 00:05:45.408
because it's a little too chaotic or it's
00:05:46.007 --> 00:05:49.269
not uh specific enough that's fine then
00:05:49.290 --> 00:05:50.771
something like ifs is really great
00:05:51.451 --> 00:05:53.812
Do I think we have a core essence,
00:05:53.911 --> 00:05:55.533
capital C, capital E,
00:05:55.872 --> 00:05:58.913
that is the capital S self inside of
00:05:58.994 --> 00:06:00.694
us and that there are all these capital
00:06:00.754 --> 00:06:03.615
P parts that make up that core self,
00:06:03.656 --> 00:06:04.737
that essence?
00:06:04.956 --> 00:06:05.656
No, I don't.
00:06:05.956 --> 00:06:07.338
I absolutely don't.
00:06:08.160 --> 00:06:09.300
I think that's nonsense,
00:06:09.459 --> 00:06:11.040
and I think that's not falsifiable.
00:06:11.120 --> 00:06:12.300
It's not good science.
00:06:12.740 --> 00:06:14.300
And I think that is what Richard Schwartz
00:06:14.360 --> 00:06:15.221
truly believes,
00:06:15.322 --> 00:06:16.482
and that is how he wants people to
00:06:16.502 --> 00:06:17.382
practice IFS.
00:06:18.062 --> 00:06:19.483
He also thinks demons are real.
00:06:19.583 --> 00:06:21.062
They're unattached burdens,
00:06:21.622 --> 00:06:23.803
and they're a potential problem for us
00:06:23.863 --> 00:06:24.024
all.
00:06:24.483 --> 00:06:26.483
And again, that's bad science.
00:06:26.663 --> 00:06:29.165
That is, I would argue, bad religion.
00:06:32.985 --> 00:06:37.427
Yeah, it's a modern update of Freud.
00:06:39.487 --> 00:06:40.048
That's not true.
00:06:40.408 --> 00:06:42.192
Well, I have said before,
00:06:42.312 --> 00:06:43.273
and it's on my YouTube channel,
00:06:43.312 --> 00:06:45.295
Freud is one of the worst therapists of
00:06:45.336 --> 00:06:45.757
all time,
00:06:47.538 --> 00:06:49.482
along with Jordan Peterson and Dr. Phil.
00:06:51.814 --> 00:06:53.076
richard schwartz isn't on that list
00:06:53.115 --> 00:06:54.755
because i bet richard schwartz does dope
00:06:54.795 --> 00:06:57.137
therapy uh i bet if you have him
00:06:57.257 --> 00:06:59.697
as your therapist he's super helpful and
00:06:59.718 --> 00:07:01.519
like that's the nuance here right i don't
00:07:01.538 --> 00:07:04.040
really take issue with the practice of ifs
00:07:04.100 --> 00:07:06.100
i take issue with richard schwartz's
00:07:06.141 --> 00:07:09.322
personal beliefs and again if he wrote the
00:07:09.341 --> 00:07:11.362
books and just had a small therapy
00:07:11.403 --> 00:07:11.882
practice
00:07:13.100 --> 00:07:13.399
cool,
00:07:13.620 --> 00:07:14.980
I would have no issue with the guy.
00:07:15.601 --> 00:07:17.983
The idea that IFS is behind a huge
00:07:18.043 --> 00:07:20.605
paywall and he rakes in a lot of
00:07:20.646 --> 00:07:23.968
money for speaking when, again,
00:07:24.069 --> 00:07:25.310
he's not somebody that we should be
00:07:25.350 --> 00:07:27.992
platforming given his unscientific stance
00:07:28.031 --> 00:07:29.533
on a lot of things that he talks
00:07:29.572 --> 00:07:32.495
about, I take issue with him.
00:07:35.336 --> 00:07:37.838
And it makes me not want to engage
00:07:37.858 --> 00:07:39.901
with some of the organizations that I like
00:07:40.081 --> 00:07:41.862
that don't see that.
00:07:44.146 --> 00:07:45.848
especially when the organizations that I
00:07:45.908 --> 00:07:47.449
like are really driven by science.
00:07:47.488 --> 00:07:48.569
And then it's like, oh,
00:07:49.951 --> 00:07:51.351
cult of personality, I guess.
00:07:52.252 --> 00:07:54.314
But like, so what's the thing here, right?
00:07:54.353 --> 00:07:55.535
Freud, I brought up Freud.
00:07:57.059 --> 00:07:58.339
got most of his stuff wrong.
00:07:58.420 --> 00:08:00.279
Really the only thing that Freud got
00:08:00.379 --> 00:08:03.802
right, and my psychoanalyst friends, haha,
00:08:03.822 --> 00:08:04.221
just kidding,
00:08:04.281 --> 00:08:06.343
I don't have anybody because less than one
00:08:06.362 --> 00:08:07.343
percent of therapists are doing
00:08:07.382 --> 00:08:09.504
psychodynamic work and they shouldn't be.
00:08:10.564 --> 00:08:12.185
I will fight that.
00:08:13.266 --> 00:08:14.386
Pretty much the only thing Freud got right
00:08:14.406 --> 00:08:15.387
was defense mechanisms.
00:08:15.666 --> 00:08:16.007
And again,
00:08:16.966 --> 00:08:19.408
that's more of a understanding of how
00:08:19.468 --> 00:08:22.430
human beings respond to things.
00:08:23.791 --> 00:08:26.694
as a pattern recognition more than this
00:08:26.774 --> 00:08:28.694
defense mechanism is hardwired into your
00:08:28.735 --> 00:08:29.615
brain's nature.
00:08:30.536 --> 00:08:31.036
It's not.
00:08:33.298 --> 00:08:36.860
But the id and ego and superego also
00:08:36.941 --> 00:08:37.881
are not real things.
00:08:38.601 --> 00:08:41.344
And people practicing that way shouldn't
00:08:41.624 --> 00:08:44.285
be.
00:08:44.306 --> 00:08:46.988
Do I have issue with ego and id
00:08:47.048 --> 00:08:48.328
and superego as metaphor?
00:08:50.972 --> 00:08:51.533
Not really,
00:08:51.573 --> 00:08:53.375
which is probably where like psychodynamic
00:08:53.394 --> 00:08:54.535
therapists would go and be like,
00:08:54.576 --> 00:08:57.057
we're not, it's not real.
00:09:00.279 --> 00:09:01.041
It's metaphor.
00:09:02.162 --> 00:09:02.442
Again,
00:09:02.501 --> 00:09:05.484
like I take issue with non-scientific
00:09:05.504 --> 00:09:08.086
things like EMDR parading around as
00:09:09.086 --> 00:09:09.668
science.
00:09:11.229 --> 00:09:12.970
And I think EMDR is super helpful for
00:09:13.009 --> 00:09:13.289
people.
00:09:13.730 --> 00:09:16.133
I take issue with non-scientific things
00:09:16.808 --> 00:09:18.009
parading around as religion,
00:09:18.110 --> 00:09:19.350
but then people giving it the benefit of
00:09:19.370 --> 00:09:21.753
the doubt as being scientific, like IFS.
00:09:23.774 --> 00:09:25.697
I'm a systems therapist.
00:09:25.736 --> 00:09:26.758
I'm a licensed marriage and family
00:09:26.778 --> 00:09:27.317
therapist.
00:09:27.499 --> 00:09:31.982
I work with entities that exist within
00:09:32.822 --> 00:09:34.365
various ecosystems.
00:09:35.888 --> 00:09:38.289
I think that is scientific and I think
00:09:38.350 --> 00:09:41.331
it allows for enough nuance and isn't up
00:09:41.371 --> 00:09:43.893
its own ass about how great it is
00:09:44.594 --> 00:09:46.414
in a way that's really approachable.
00:09:46.794 --> 00:09:48.817
It works really well.
00:09:49.256 --> 00:09:50.857
It's backed by a bunch of science.
00:09:52.058 --> 00:09:54.440
I can pull in other schools of thought
00:09:54.700 --> 00:09:57.001
and other things and it doesn't upset the
00:09:57.042 --> 00:09:59.062
balance of my therapy because my therapy
00:09:59.163 --> 00:10:03.426
is informed by science and not dogmatic
00:10:03.446 --> 00:10:04.346
about anything.
00:10:05.053 --> 00:10:05.313
Again,
00:10:05.354 --> 00:10:08.196
if I was like a Bowenian therapist and
00:10:08.235 --> 00:10:10.697
was like, structure, structure, structure,
00:10:10.857 --> 00:10:12.698
and here's all the triangulation in your
00:10:12.739 --> 00:10:16.140
family, and oh no, you're enmeshed,
00:10:16.201 --> 00:10:18.022
and oh no, you're, you know,
00:10:19.523 --> 00:10:20.504
I have all that stuff.
00:10:20.524 --> 00:10:21.443
I was taught all that stuff.
00:10:21.484 --> 00:10:22.865
I'm not dogmatic about it.
00:10:23.105 --> 00:10:27.847
I'm sure someone out there is, right?
00:10:27.888 --> 00:10:31.390
Could be dogmatic about humanistic therapy
00:10:31.451 --> 00:10:33.572
from Carl Whitaker, I guess, right?
00:10:33.788 --> 00:10:34.429
Or you could be like,
00:10:34.549 --> 00:10:36.311
I'm a purist and I only practice
00:10:36.350 --> 00:10:37.091
cybernetics.
00:10:37.152 --> 00:10:37.451
And like,
00:10:37.852 --> 00:10:39.594
if you're not a therapy nerd and you're
00:10:39.653 --> 00:10:41.015
definitely not a family therapist,
00:10:41.035 --> 00:10:41.255
you're like,
00:10:41.296 --> 00:10:42.636
why is he bringing cybernetics into it?
00:10:42.716 --> 00:10:43.697
Cause it doesn't even make sense.
00:10:43.758 --> 00:10:45.219
It's not even a word that we ascribe
00:10:45.239 --> 00:10:46.120
to therapy anymore.
00:10:47.140 --> 00:10:50.083
So again, I mean, my issue is with
00:10:51.976 --> 00:10:56.220
dogmatic therapists who are not willing to
00:10:56.419 --> 00:10:58.721
entertain or engage with criticism of
00:10:58.782 --> 00:10:59.663
their chosen field.
00:10:59.702 --> 00:11:00.023
And again,
00:11:00.464 --> 00:11:02.725
I brought up the paywall earlier.
00:11:02.845 --> 00:11:05.527
I think it's because therapists spend a
00:11:05.567 --> 00:11:07.928
lot of money to get certified and
00:11:07.969 --> 00:11:10.451
qualified to do therapy that there is this
00:11:10.650 --> 00:11:12.091
idea that then we should use those
00:11:12.133 --> 00:11:12.572
trainings
00:11:13.765 --> 00:11:16.188
that if it's helpful like that was
00:11:16.229 --> 00:11:18.032
worthwhile and again therapists aren't
00:11:18.072 --> 00:11:20.875
special uh we have our own cognitive
00:11:20.894 --> 00:11:22.778
biases and we fall prey to the same
00:11:22.798 --> 00:11:24.460
cognitive biases as everyone else so like
00:11:24.679 --> 00:11:27.102
a sunken cost fallacy of like man i
00:11:27.123 --> 00:11:27.363
spent
00:11:28.265 --> 00:11:30.067
a couple grand on this training and it
00:11:30.087 --> 00:11:32.169
took me two years to get certified so
00:11:32.210 --> 00:11:35.153
like right that person is not really
00:11:35.293 --> 00:11:38.034
invested in finding reasons why the
00:11:38.075 --> 00:11:40.677
therapy is bad they're pretty strongly
00:11:40.697 --> 00:11:42.399
invested in making sure the therapy is
00:11:42.440 --> 00:11:43.760
great and that they love it and it
00:11:43.780 --> 00:11:45.722
works really well and all the clients who
00:11:45.743 --> 00:11:47.203
it's not a good fit for are the
00:11:47.244 --> 00:11:49.105
problem not the therapy itself
00:11:50.250 --> 00:11:51.171
And like, that's a problem.
00:11:51.230 --> 00:11:51.431
Again,
00:11:51.471 --> 00:11:52.671
we as therapists need to be a lot
00:11:52.691 --> 00:11:53.251
better about it.
00:11:53.331 --> 00:11:55.052
We should not be dogmatic.
00:11:55.493 --> 00:11:58.474
The scientific process includes learning
00:11:58.534 --> 00:12:01.495
things and unlearning them and relearning
00:12:01.515 --> 00:12:03.177
them and updating them when new
00:12:03.216 --> 00:12:04.597
information becomes available.
00:12:05.118 --> 00:12:07.599
The idea of like getting our continuing
00:12:07.679 --> 00:12:09.581
education is that we stay up to date
00:12:09.701 --> 00:12:10.140
on things.
00:12:10.620 --> 00:12:12.222
The reality of the way that conferences
00:12:12.263 --> 00:12:13.803
are set up and continuing that actually
00:12:13.844 --> 00:12:16.326
works is just a lot of confirmation bias.
00:12:16.605 --> 00:12:18.207
It's not so much that we're being
00:12:18.248 --> 00:12:19.629
challenged in our ways of thinking or
00:12:19.649 --> 00:12:20.970
we're being updated on things.
00:12:21.410 --> 00:12:21.951
And again,
00:12:21.971 --> 00:12:23.712
you're not getting trained in IFS by going
00:12:23.732 --> 00:12:24.312
to conferences.
00:12:24.352 --> 00:12:25.653
You have to pay that out of pocket
00:12:26.034 --> 00:12:29.538
for the trademark copyright in the little
00:12:29.577 --> 00:12:33.240
circle symbol version of IFS.
00:12:33.280 --> 00:12:33.581
And again,
00:12:33.642 --> 00:12:37.004
I think that moves it into cult territory.
00:12:37.916 --> 00:12:39.798
And I don't know that it is a
00:12:39.839 --> 00:12:40.119
cult.
00:12:40.239 --> 00:12:42.982
Again, as a religious trauma therapist,
00:12:43.082 --> 00:12:44.384
I know a lot more clients who have
00:12:44.404 --> 00:12:46.027
benefited from having therapists who do
00:12:46.167 --> 00:12:48.629
IFS than people who have been triggered
00:12:48.850 --> 00:12:51.833
and or had any sort of psychosis from
00:12:53.535 --> 00:12:54.378
the IFS.
00:12:55.307 --> 00:12:55.567
Again,
00:12:56.168 --> 00:12:59.052
if somebody had induced psychosis in a
00:12:59.092 --> 00:13:00.234
client who had religious trauma,
00:13:00.254 --> 00:13:01.736
they'd probably blame the religion and not
00:13:01.756 --> 00:13:02.317
the therapy.
00:13:02.557 --> 00:13:03.399
So whatever.
00:13:03.980 --> 00:13:04.279
I'm not...
00:13:05.182 --> 00:13:07.144
That's why I didn't frame it as is
00:13:07.325 --> 00:13:08.046
IFS a cult.
00:13:08.225 --> 00:13:09.187
Again, I think if...
00:13:10.423 --> 00:13:13.048
Richard Schwartz had existed in another
00:13:13.107 --> 00:13:14.750
time period than it might have been.
00:13:16.232 --> 00:13:17.173
But now, no, I mean,
00:13:17.254 --> 00:13:19.136
I don't think there's the coercive
00:13:19.197 --> 00:13:19.697
control.
00:13:19.817 --> 00:13:20.678
I think, again,
00:13:21.279 --> 00:13:23.302
therapists sometimes could get dogmatic
00:13:23.322 --> 00:13:23.582
about it.
00:13:23.623 --> 00:13:25.485
I think Schwartz himself is dogmatic about
00:13:25.546 --> 00:13:25.605
it.
00:13:26.567 --> 00:13:29.450
But again, you're spending money on it.
00:13:29.490 --> 00:13:31.091
You're not having to move on a compound.
00:13:31.130 --> 00:13:32.812
You don't have to finish the training.
00:13:33.332 --> 00:13:34.634
Yes, you don't get the certification then.
00:13:34.653 --> 00:13:36.774
But again, there's too much freedom.
00:13:36.894 --> 00:13:40.158
That's where we look at the continuum of
00:13:40.238 --> 00:13:41.018
control.
00:13:42.239 --> 00:13:44.760
I think as you get into Jan Jalalic,
00:13:45.221 --> 00:13:45.701
who's great,
00:13:45.741 --> 00:13:47.724
and I love her work as a religious
00:13:47.744 --> 00:13:49.284
trauma therapist as a
00:13:50.004 --> 00:13:51.186
not even religious trauma therapist,
00:13:51.225 --> 00:13:52.706
as a cult expert.
00:13:53.505 --> 00:13:55.346
She also talks about like bounded choice.
00:13:55.386 --> 00:13:57.368
And so when you only have limited choices,
00:13:57.827 --> 00:13:58.028
again,
00:13:58.067 --> 00:14:00.869
I think if you are trained in IFS,
00:14:01.328 --> 00:14:03.889
then what you see with problems everywhere
00:14:03.909 --> 00:14:04.750
is parts work.
00:14:05.330 --> 00:14:06.570
And that gets a little bit into the
00:14:06.610 --> 00:14:07.250
bounded choice,
00:14:07.291 --> 00:14:08.770
but when we expand and we look a
00:14:08.811 --> 00:14:11.312
little bit about like Stephen Hassan's
00:14:11.392 --> 00:14:14.633
bite model, again,
00:14:14.653 --> 00:14:16.533
the only way IFS could be a cult
00:14:16.573 --> 00:14:17.313
is if like you
00:14:18.870 --> 00:14:21.052
did your schooling all through that.
00:14:21.131 --> 00:14:21.971
And it was the only thing you were
00:14:21.991 --> 00:14:22.793
ever exposed to.
00:14:23.972 --> 00:14:25.474
And then you had to do it that
00:14:25.514 --> 00:14:25.793
way,
00:14:25.974 --> 00:14:27.215
or you got kicked out of like your
00:14:27.274 --> 00:14:30.196
practice and then you didn't get to make
00:14:30.296 --> 00:14:31.216
ends meet anymore.
00:14:31.236 --> 00:14:31.996
Like that would be bad.
00:14:32.356 --> 00:14:32.717
But again,
00:14:32.857 --> 00:14:34.337
I don't think that really exists.
00:14:34.899 --> 00:14:37.600
That's just purely hypothetical and it
00:14:37.659 --> 00:14:38.600
could exist.
00:14:38.679 --> 00:14:39.681
I just don't think it does.
00:14:39.941 --> 00:14:41.422
I think what happens is a lot more,
00:14:41.442 --> 00:14:42.782
it's a cult of personality.
00:14:42.881 --> 00:14:43.562
And so Schwartz,
00:14:44.573 --> 00:14:46.316
carries a big price tag.
00:14:46.735 --> 00:14:48.898
Bessel van der Kolk, again,
00:14:48.937 --> 00:14:52.000
who like did great work in updating how
00:14:52.020 --> 00:14:53.842
we understood trauma and working with it
00:14:53.903 --> 00:14:55.303
and is a bit of an asshole and
00:14:55.543 --> 00:14:57.666
did not write the definitive guide to
00:14:57.726 --> 00:14:58.706
understanding trauma.
00:14:59.148 --> 00:15:01.931
He wrote a very popular book that made
00:15:01.971 --> 00:15:03.032
him expensive.
00:15:03.672 --> 00:15:05.994
And that was true of Freud too, right?
00:15:06.014 --> 00:15:08.596
Like Freud was at a time and place
00:15:08.797 --> 00:15:09.236
where
00:15:09.898 --> 00:15:13.720
Hierarchies existed specifically for men
00:15:13.820 --> 00:15:15.221
to be at the top of their field.
00:15:15.480 --> 00:15:16.761
And again, when we look at other fields,
00:15:16.782 --> 00:15:18.523
we know a bunch of dudes just took
00:15:18.562 --> 00:15:20.605
their wives' work and got published
00:15:20.625 --> 00:15:22.865
because they were men.
00:15:22.905 --> 00:15:24.346
Freud was wrong about most things.
00:15:24.407 --> 00:15:27.008
Freud was snorting cocaine and going to
00:15:27.048 --> 00:15:28.729
give lectures and saying people couldn't
00:15:28.749 --> 00:15:30.049
tell that he was on coke.
00:15:30.070 --> 00:15:33.611
Freud was puffing on his cigars and
00:15:33.913 --> 00:15:35.614
thinking about his stepmom.
00:15:37.961 --> 00:15:40.263
I don't know, he got a lot wrong.
00:15:40.342 --> 00:15:42.345
He's not somebody who we should still have
00:15:42.404 --> 00:15:43.806
like on any sort of pedestal,
00:15:43.846 --> 00:15:45.427
let alone trying to practice the way that
00:15:45.447 --> 00:15:45.746
he did.
00:15:46.268 --> 00:15:47.548
And to be fair to psychodynamic
00:15:47.589 --> 00:15:48.009
therapists,
00:15:48.028 --> 00:15:49.711
they're not practicing specifically the
00:15:49.730 --> 00:15:50.370
way Freud did.
00:15:50.471 --> 00:15:53.254
It has had to have been updated and
00:15:53.274 --> 00:15:54.254
changed over the years.
00:15:54.815 --> 00:15:56.735
Again, that's a case where I'm like,
00:15:56.755 --> 00:15:58.118
throw the baby out with the bathwater.
00:15:58.158 --> 00:16:00.480
Like that's started from such an
00:16:00.559 --> 00:16:01.419
unscientific place.
00:16:01.460 --> 00:16:03.522
Whatever we're still doing to try and make
00:16:03.581 --> 00:16:06.323
it fit isn't worth just picking a better
00:16:06.384 --> 00:16:06.684
model.
00:16:07.804 --> 00:16:10.826
um but like you know i brought up
00:16:11.668 --> 00:16:14.289
uh stephen hassan's bite model hassan's
00:16:14.330 --> 00:16:16.110
like an interesting character too because
00:16:16.150 --> 00:16:17.591
again i think he gets a lot of
00:16:17.611 --> 00:16:20.794
stuff wrong um and i think he's somebody
00:16:21.014 --> 00:16:25.118
who became a quote unquote expert not that
00:16:25.197 --> 00:16:27.940
he attached that to himself but his book
00:16:27.960 --> 00:16:28.860
sold really well
00:16:29.301 --> 00:16:31.582
He became a big get for getting on
00:16:31.602 --> 00:16:33.644
a podcast and a bunch of other stuff
00:16:34.066 --> 00:16:35.886
where he started like becoming an expert
00:16:35.947 --> 00:16:36.447
on stuff.
00:16:36.567 --> 00:16:39.230
And then his age showed through and he
00:16:39.269 --> 00:16:40.270
started being like,
00:16:40.692 --> 00:16:42.754
trans people are getting hypnotized by
00:16:42.833 --> 00:16:44.355
tranny porn on the internet.
00:16:44.434 --> 00:16:45.615
And that's a real problem.
00:16:46.017 --> 00:16:48.399
And I was like, oh, bro, uh-uh.
00:16:49.551 --> 00:16:50.471
nope,
00:16:50.511 --> 00:16:52.754
you're off on this and your language about
00:16:52.793 --> 00:16:57.216
it isn't great and being a bit bigoted.
00:16:57.677 --> 00:17:02.240
And I still think he understood it.
00:17:03.221 --> 00:17:03.581
I don't know.
00:17:03.741 --> 00:17:04.803
I didn't follow all the drama.
00:17:05.103 --> 00:17:06.284
Part of the reason I don't want to
00:17:06.324 --> 00:17:08.726
get into drama on the podcast is I
00:17:08.925 --> 00:17:10.968
just generally can't be bothered to keep
00:17:11.008 --> 00:17:12.489
up with anybody who's sort of in a
00:17:12.568 --> 00:17:14.570
celebrity sort of space.
00:17:15.693 --> 00:17:18.015
The only celebrities I'm like loosely up
00:17:18.035 --> 00:17:19.516
to date on are pro wrestlers and
00:17:19.776 --> 00:17:22.178
celebrities doing them.
00:17:22.198 --> 00:17:23.919
I'm having to stretch the word there,
00:17:23.999 --> 00:17:24.278
right?
00:17:26.200 --> 00:17:27.540
I can tell you what Dan Housen is
00:17:27.580 --> 00:17:27.901
up to.
00:17:28.201 --> 00:17:29.382
And if you don't know who Dan Housen
00:17:29.461 --> 00:17:32.144
is, it's proven my point.
00:17:32.163 --> 00:17:33.805
You should know who Dan Housen is.
00:17:36.626 --> 00:17:41.588
I will say the just working on by
00:17:41.628 --> 00:17:43.308
episode two hundreds to be a straight
00:17:43.348 --> 00:17:48.490
wrestling podcast, the, the but the,
00:17:48.810 --> 00:17:54.752
the model of person trying to be helpful
00:17:54.913 --> 00:17:56.273
is genuinely helpful,
00:17:57.233 --> 00:17:59.434
gathers a following because of how helpful
00:17:59.474 --> 00:17:59.954
they are.
00:18:00.785 --> 00:18:03.928
becomes a quote unquote expert, um,
00:18:04.107 --> 00:18:07.932
is raised in some sort of status symbol,
00:18:08.451 --> 00:18:09.613
whether that's financially,
00:18:09.692 --> 00:18:11.054
whether that's professionally,
00:18:11.115 --> 00:18:12.015
whatever it is.
00:18:12.875 --> 00:18:13.497
And then again,
00:18:13.557 --> 00:18:14.958
like loses touch with reality,
00:18:15.018 --> 00:18:17.941
starts believing they can do no wrong,
00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:20.262
starts believing they have access to some
00:18:20.303 --> 00:18:21.683
sort of capital T truth,
00:18:21.743 --> 00:18:23.685
starts believing that they and they alone
00:18:23.726 --> 00:18:25.367
see the universe in the correct way.
00:18:26.729 --> 00:18:26.848
Um,
00:18:27.861 --> 00:18:28.501
that's a problem.
00:18:28.561 --> 00:18:29.482
And whether that again,
00:18:29.522 --> 00:18:30.503
is a religious leader,
00:18:30.644 --> 00:18:31.765
or that's a researcher,
00:18:31.904 --> 00:18:33.527
or that is a therapist,
00:18:33.666 --> 00:18:36.891
or that is a politician, like,
00:18:37.612 --> 00:18:37.892
that
00:18:38.452 --> 00:18:42.115
that pipeline becomes problematic.
00:18:42.474 --> 00:18:42.855
Megan,
00:18:42.934 --> 00:18:44.415
I think it's just when any belief system
00:18:44.435 --> 00:18:46.876
becomes too dogmatic to not be able to
00:18:46.916 --> 00:18:47.817
take criticism.
00:18:48.377 --> 00:18:49.818
As a religious trauma therapist,
00:18:49.959 --> 00:18:53.580
that is a thing that we see with
00:18:53.601 --> 00:18:55.961
a lot of religion that goes wrong is
00:18:56.682 --> 00:18:58.884
the religion becomes far too rigid.
00:18:59.003 --> 00:19:02.085
And again, it's based off of some prophet,
00:19:02.125 --> 00:19:03.046
some leader,
00:19:03.125 --> 00:19:05.007
some person somewhere who like
00:19:06.209 --> 00:19:07.410
I'm going to say got too big for
00:19:07.430 --> 00:19:08.130
their britches,
00:19:08.430 --> 00:19:11.151
and the religion can't see that, right?
00:19:12.932 --> 00:19:13.211
Gosh,
00:19:13.251 --> 00:19:14.673
I really don't want to throw shade at
00:19:14.712 --> 00:19:15.732
my contemporaries.
00:19:16.933 --> 00:19:18.575
Richard Schwartz is not my contemporary.
00:19:18.934 --> 00:19:20.234
I don't have a problem throwing shade
00:19:20.275 --> 00:19:20.496
there.
00:19:23.621 --> 00:19:26.103
It's why other people who work in the
00:19:26.143 --> 00:19:27.884
religious trauma fields will still get a
00:19:27.903 --> 00:19:28.483
bunch of stuff wrong.
00:19:28.523 --> 00:19:30.224
Hasan is a good example, Stephen Hasan,
00:19:30.424 --> 00:19:34.667
not Hasan Piker, the very famous streamer,
00:19:35.228 --> 00:19:35.929
Stephen Hasan,
00:19:37.130 --> 00:19:40.192
whose work by and large I've enjoyed and
00:19:40.251 --> 00:19:41.633
think is pretty good.
00:19:41.772 --> 00:19:43.834
It's when he's on podcasts,
00:19:43.874 --> 00:19:44.875
he's off the cuff,
00:19:44.934 --> 00:19:46.816
he's doing interviews that it gets worse.
00:19:47.215 --> 00:19:48.436
And arguably that's true of Richard
00:19:48.457 --> 00:19:49.196
Schwartz too, right?
00:19:49.396 --> 00:19:51.057
Here's the nuance that I'm trying to bring
00:19:51.097 --> 00:19:54.079
to this conversation is we can be critical
00:19:54.299 --> 00:19:57.801
of the things they say and is their
00:19:57.961 --> 00:20:00.123
off-the-cuff interview different than
00:20:00.163 --> 00:20:01.222
their published work?
00:20:01.624 --> 00:20:03.305
Now for Schwartz, I don't think it is.
00:20:03.365 --> 00:20:03.585
Again,
00:20:03.865 --> 00:20:06.425
I think he isn't using this as metaphor.
00:20:06.526 --> 00:20:07.666
And for as long as he's been a
00:20:07.767 --> 00:20:08.767
famous person,
00:20:08.866 --> 00:20:10.827
he's been very consistent that parts work
00:20:10.907 --> 00:20:11.808
isn't metaphor work.
00:20:12.482 --> 00:20:13.784
there's actually all these separate
00:20:13.844 --> 00:20:14.903
entities inside of you.
00:20:15.263 --> 00:20:18.726
And that is incorrect.
00:20:22.627 --> 00:20:24.368
We don't have some sort of core essence
00:20:24.388 --> 00:20:26.250
that evaporates when we die.
00:20:26.430 --> 00:20:28.471
We lose a bit of heat because we
00:20:28.510 --> 00:20:29.530
stop producing energy.
00:20:31.663 --> 00:20:33.285
This is explained through the scientific
00:20:33.345 --> 00:20:35.526
method, not through some sort of thing.
00:20:35.586 --> 00:20:36.185
And like, again,
00:20:36.605 --> 00:20:38.406
Schwartz makes it pseudo religious and
00:20:38.426 --> 00:20:39.528
that's when it becomes a problem.
00:20:39.607 --> 00:20:42.288
Peter Thiel, owner of Palantir,
00:20:42.409 --> 00:20:45.089
all around bad human being, tech fascist,
00:20:45.770 --> 00:20:47.852
thinks that Greta Thunberg is the...
00:20:48.771 --> 00:20:51.874
antichrist because again like when we move
00:20:51.894 --> 00:20:53.576
too far away from the unscientific from
00:20:53.635 --> 00:20:55.537
the scientific method when things our
00:20:55.596 --> 00:20:58.398
methods become unscientific we land at
00:20:58.479 --> 00:21:00.760
religion and like religion is just
00:21:00.921 --> 00:21:02.923
superstitious thinking it's just magical
00:21:02.962 --> 00:21:05.544
thinking as explanations for things that
00:21:05.625 --> 00:21:07.645
probably do have scientific explanations
00:21:07.685 --> 00:21:10.607
elsewhere and i'm not getting dogmatic
00:21:10.647 --> 00:21:13.770
about science right science gets a ton of
00:21:13.790 --> 00:21:15.672
stuff wrong i think when science is done
00:21:15.971 --> 00:21:16.352
well
00:21:17.511 --> 00:21:19.573
it updates itself and it's continually
00:21:19.633 --> 00:21:21.794
self-critical and it's like a learning
00:21:21.834 --> 00:21:22.173
model.
00:21:22.213 --> 00:21:24.315
It isn't a thing to be dogmatic about.
00:21:24.434 --> 00:21:26.855
It isn't capital S science.
00:21:27.457 --> 00:21:29.738
The scientific method isn't trademarked.
00:21:30.298 --> 00:21:33.980
If the world ceased to exist and humans
00:21:35.305 --> 00:21:36.885
know came out of some sort of let's
00:21:36.905 --> 00:21:39.346
say a nuclear winter in some future and
00:21:39.405 --> 00:21:41.406
rebuilt civilization the scientific method
00:21:41.467 --> 00:21:45.448
would appear again relatively unchanged in
00:21:45.468 --> 00:21:47.969
a way that modern religions and old
00:21:47.989 --> 00:21:50.710
religions wouldn't right there's no way to
00:21:50.750 --> 00:21:52.871
like reinvent those with the same
00:21:52.911 --> 00:21:54.510
specifics they have now because they're
00:21:54.530 --> 00:21:55.571
not based on anything
00:21:56.347 --> 00:21:57.969
Scientific method is just observable
00:21:58.369 --> 00:21:58.849
information.
00:21:58.950 --> 00:22:00.951
It is a way to categorize.
00:22:01.010 --> 00:22:03.532
It's a methodology to look at what we
00:22:04.013 --> 00:22:05.094
are observing.
00:22:05.174 --> 00:22:06.394
And that's why it's so useful.
00:22:07.756 --> 00:22:09.758
But again, it in and of itself isn't,
00:22:11.380 --> 00:22:13.402
stuff gets wrong all the time usually it's
00:22:13.422 --> 00:22:15.083
the observer's fault but also we observe
00:22:15.103 --> 00:22:16.984
different things people who observe two
00:22:17.005 --> 00:22:18.405
different things on different ends of the
00:22:18.425 --> 00:22:20.968
world can talk in a way that isn't
00:22:21.008 --> 00:22:22.950
what was happening back in the day that's
00:22:22.990 --> 00:22:25.913
why like we sort of have this idea
00:22:26.272 --> 00:22:28.815
of the great enlightenment being a certain
00:22:28.835 --> 00:22:30.256
number of people it's like nah there have
00:22:30.757 --> 00:22:32.038
been really smart people throughout
00:22:32.077 --> 00:22:34.240
history and we just have a very like
00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:37.182
eurocentric version of history that we
00:22:37.221 --> 00:22:37.663
learn about
00:22:40.083 --> 00:22:41.124
It's very waspy.
00:22:41.183 --> 00:22:42.964
It's very male, for sure, too,
00:22:43.765 --> 00:22:45.906
in a way that it just isn't accurate.
00:22:46.507 --> 00:22:48.067
And part of the reason that thought
00:22:48.087 --> 00:22:51.089
leaders are so hard to break through now
00:22:51.250 --> 00:22:54.711
is we all have access to so much
00:22:54.731 --> 00:22:55.252
information.
00:22:55.712 --> 00:22:57.054
But again, these people still pop up.
00:22:57.134 --> 00:22:58.295
Again, Van der Kolk,
00:23:00.536 --> 00:23:01.876
Richard Schwartz is a good example.
00:23:02.037 --> 00:23:03.178
I don't even know who came up with
00:23:03.258 --> 00:23:03.837
EMDR.
00:23:03.877 --> 00:23:04.239
So again,
00:23:05.098 --> 00:23:07.039
as critical as I am of EMDR and
00:23:07.079 --> 00:23:09.122
its very questionable scientific backing,
00:23:10.325 --> 00:23:12.246
that person at least hasn't gone and like
00:23:12.306 --> 00:23:13.246
made it about themselves.
00:23:13.286 --> 00:23:16.166
They have made it about the thing because
00:23:16.207 --> 00:23:19.007
again, EMDR is also behind a huge paywall.
00:23:19.626 --> 00:23:21.508
I don't know any, well, that's not true.
00:23:21.528 --> 00:23:21.948
I was going to say,
00:23:21.968 --> 00:23:24.409
I don't know any famous marriage or family
00:23:24.429 --> 00:23:24.729
therapist,
00:23:24.749 --> 00:23:26.669
but like John Gottman would be the example
00:23:26.769 --> 00:23:28.470
in, in my field.
00:23:28.630 --> 00:23:31.631
I think his stuff is pretty accessible,
00:23:31.671 --> 00:23:33.371
but to work with him specifically,
00:23:33.391 --> 00:23:34.351
I don't even know if he's still doing
00:23:34.371 --> 00:23:34.550
stuff.
00:23:34.570 --> 00:23:36.192
He's aged.
00:23:37.311 --> 00:23:37.352
Um,
00:23:38.307 --> 00:23:39.670
to work with him specifically is
00:23:39.730 --> 00:23:40.270
expensive,
00:23:40.330 --> 00:23:42.173
but like his stuff's pretty accessible
00:23:42.233 --> 00:23:42.535
again,
00:23:42.595 --> 00:23:44.979
like seven principles for making marriage
00:23:45.019 --> 00:23:46.141
work is old.
00:23:46.381 --> 00:23:47.262
And, um,
00:23:49.203 --> 00:23:51.144
know certainly not the be-all end-all of
00:23:51.285 --> 00:23:53.204
self-help books for couples but like some
00:23:53.224 --> 00:23:54.746
of that stuff's still pretty good and
00:23:54.826 --> 00:23:57.286
still holds up and it's fourteen dollars
00:23:58.026 --> 00:23:59.267
you know in the way that like no
00:23:59.287 --> 00:24:01.586
bad parts is also accessible but like i
00:24:01.606 --> 00:24:04.587
don't i think gotman's work you don't need
00:24:04.607 --> 00:24:06.969
to go get certified people do which says
00:24:06.989 --> 00:24:09.470
more about therapists and our insecurity
00:24:09.529 --> 00:24:11.529
as a profession probably than anything
00:24:11.589 --> 00:24:13.911
else so gotman's a good example again like
00:24:14.030 --> 00:24:16.750
got really big got famous made it big
00:24:17.011 --> 00:24:17.991
and like capitalism took over
00:24:18.771 --> 00:24:20.614
The thing that's interesting with Gottman
00:24:20.653 --> 00:24:22.416
is he isn't a therapist.
00:24:22.817 --> 00:24:24.138
Never was.
00:24:24.199 --> 00:24:25.220
He's a mathematician.
00:24:25.259 --> 00:24:27.803
He's a researcher.
00:24:28.423 --> 00:24:29.846
Actually, the more I think about Gottman,
00:24:29.885 --> 00:24:31.027
the more he is probably, again,
00:24:31.387 --> 00:24:32.848
an example of this where
00:24:34.028 --> 00:24:35.708
person starts doing something helpful,
00:24:35.788 --> 00:24:37.509
gets famous because they're so helpful,
00:24:37.568 --> 00:24:38.989
gets elevated in status,
00:24:39.148 --> 00:24:42.210
and then loses touch with reality and
00:24:42.230 --> 00:24:44.210
becomes potentially problematic.
00:24:44.691 --> 00:24:46.631
Again, this is all cult leader stuff.
00:24:46.671 --> 00:24:50.771
So we see abuses happen here in other
00:24:50.811 --> 00:24:53.553
dynamics in a way that I think it's
00:24:53.573 --> 00:24:54.353
financial abuse.
00:24:54.772 --> 00:24:55.012
Sure.
00:24:55.732 --> 00:24:57.614
And I think it's unhelpful,
00:24:57.733 --> 00:24:58.673
but I don't know that I would say
00:24:58.693 --> 00:24:59.653
it's abusive.
00:25:00.634 --> 00:25:01.835
It's exploitative.
00:25:03.922 --> 00:25:05.544
predominantly from a financial setting.
00:25:05.624 --> 00:25:05.923
And again,
00:25:05.943 --> 00:25:09.547
in a way that like puts good therapists
00:25:09.847 --> 00:25:11.548
needing to like pay off their student
00:25:11.588 --> 00:25:13.932
loans and afford all their trainings and
00:25:13.971 --> 00:25:15.032
stuff behind a paywall.
00:25:17.555 --> 00:25:18.996
you're like jeremy you don't take
00:25:19.036 --> 00:25:21.377
insurance like that is accurate that's
00:25:21.417 --> 00:25:22.919
more of being in the profession for a
00:25:22.979 --> 00:25:25.280
long time than like i'm so special and
00:25:25.320 --> 00:25:28.482
have all the trainings i can barely market
00:25:28.663 --> 00:25:31.865
like my specialties because i get bored
00:25:31.905 --> 00:25:36.169
with them myself um again like i think
00:25:36.189 --> 00:25:38.070
there's a difference between i know it and
00:25:38.270 --> 00:25:39.832
i know it so well that everyone should
00:25:39.892 --> 00:25:41.692
pay me extra because i know so much
00:25:41.853 --> 00:25:42.354
to like
00:25:44.519 --> 00:25:45.642
Yeah,
00:25:45.662 --> 00:25:47.484
I'm pretty good at like a handful of
00:25:47.525 --> 00:25:48.686
things that I work with.
00:25:49.827 --> 00:25:52.593
And outside of that, I don't know.
00:25:52.653 --> 00:25:54.154
I have a good referral list because I
00:25:54.174 --> 00:25:55.617
am not an expert in all things.
00:25:55.637 --> 00:25:57.259
And the way that I work isn't helpful
00:25:57.279 --> 00:25:58.762
for everybody who wants help.
00:25:59.989 --> 00:26:01.410
even in the things that I'm pretty good
00:26:01.450 --> 00:26:02.170
at working with.
00:26:03.310 --> 00:26:05.571
I think the audacity to write a book
00:26:05.612 --> 00:26:06.373
and then be like,
00:26:07.292 --> 00:26:08.894
everyone should pay me a shit ton of
00:26:08.953 --> 00:26:10.935
money for this is very high.
00:26:11.256 --> 00:26:11.576
And again,
00:26:12.536 --> 00:26:14.116
I'm criticizing capitalism here.
00:26:14.357 --> 00:26:18.140
I don't know that everybody I'm listing
00:26:18.200 --> 00:26:22.102
here is like, again,
00:26:22.301 --> 00:26:24.703
huffing their own farts and drunk on their
00:26:24.743 --> 00:26:25.324
own power.
00:26:25.483 --> 00:26:26.924
I think some of it is just like,
00:26:27.627 --> 00:26:27.827
yeah,
00:26:27.847 --> 00:26:29.548
at some point you get so many requests
00:26:29.607 --> 00:26:30.969
to do speaking tours and all the
00:26:30.989 --> 00:26:32.689
invitations, you probably get an agent.
00:26:32.729 --> 00:26:34.788
And then like some of the therapists that
00:26:34.848 --> 00:26:35.169
I like,
00:26:35.189 --> 00:26:37.789
some people I criticize for their business
00:26:37.829 --> 00:26:39.250
practices, it's like, yeah,
00:26:39.289 --> 00:26:40.450
they paid a business coach.
00:26:41.150 --> 00:26:42.871
And because the business coach knows more
00:26:42.891 --> 00:26:43.631
about doing business,
00:26:43.671 --> 00:26:44.891
they do what the business coach says.
00:26:44.931 --> 00:26:46.211
And then I look at their practice and
00:26:46.230 --> 00:26:47.391
say, wow, that's really unethical.
00:26:47.491 --> 00:26:49.152
I like this therapist and I really hate
00:26:49.172 --> 00:26:50.152
the way they do business.
00:26:50.811 --> 00:26:51.811
It's like, yeah,
00:26:51.971 --> 00:26:54.313
that is ultimately more a critique of
00:26:54.373 --> 00:26:55.792
capitalism than anything else.
00:26:56.367 --> 00:26:58.887
I wish therapists had like, I don't know.
00:26:58.907 --> 00:27:00.469
I don't even want to say more
00:27:00.509 --> 00:27:03.048
self-confidence because I take a peek at
00:27:03.088 --> 00:27:04.769
like the therapy subreddit every once in a
00:27:04.869 --> 00:27:08.650
while and it is just horrifically bad
00:27:08.710 --> 00:27:10.430
therapy on there.
00:27:12.010 --> 00:27:15.830
I wish self-awareness was higher across
00:27:17.132 --> 00:27:17.632
entities.
00:27:17.892 --> 00:27:19.031
And even as I say something like that,
00:27:19.051 --> 00:27:20.791
like, gosh, that sounds conceited.
00:27:20.832 --> 00:27:22.393
My self-awareness is high enough to be
00:27:22.432 --> 00:27:24.232
like very critical of myself.
00:27:25.305 --> 00:27:27.105
to a problematic degree, probably,
00:27:27.164 --> 00:27:28.865
more than it's I'm so arrogant.
00:27:31.747 --> 00:27:32.126
But again,
00:27:32.507 --> 00:27:37.028
it's being able to hold that nuance.
00:27:37.528 --> 00:27:38.607
And it's not how you make money,
00:27:38.708 --> 00:27:39.167
I guess.
00:27:39.367 --> 00:27:40.689
It's why I don't make a lot of
00:27:40.729 --> 00:27:41.388
money, I guess.
00:27:41.409 --> 00:27:43.388
It's why I'm not famous.
00:27:45.250 --> 00:27:46.329
I don't have that big book.
00:27:46.509 --> 00:27:48.971
I don't have Schumacher-style therapy.
00:27:49.851 --> 00:27:51.590
It would be cooler if we did it
00:27:51.631 --> 00:27:52.151
like that,
00:27:52.332 --> 00:27:53.951
like different schools of pro wrestling.
00:27:56.394 --> 00:27:57.895
I didn't want to bring wrestling back up.
00:27:58.536 --> 00:27:59.497
Our different styles.
00:27:59.557 --> 00:28:00.758
You have strong style.
00:28:02.118 --> 00:28:03.680
That's how we should name schools of
00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:04.520
thought and therapy.
00:28:05.122 --> 00:28:07.143
Or different martial arts.
00:28:07.624 --> 00:28:08.483
Yeah.
00:28:08.544 --> 00:28:09.204
That would be cool.
00:28:09.986 --> 00:28:12.467
I guess that's just what IFS is.
00:28:12.567 --> 00:28:13.647
We just have lame names.
00:28:16.190 --> 00:28:16.691
That's all right.
00:28:16.931 --> 00:28:17.932
Therapy is kind of lame.
00:28:18.692 --> 00:28:21.894
The idea of being helpful should be
00:28:21.934 --> 00:28:22.414
accessible.
00:28:23.516 --> 00:28:25.317
And again, wanting to help someone
00:28:27.219 --> 00:28:28.839
there should be some humility in that
00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:32.363
process instead of like grandiosity and
00:28:32.423 --> 00:28:34.263
like expertise, which is why, again,
00:28:34.284 --> 00:28:35.684
like religion is so problematic.
00:28:35.724 --> 00:28:37.826
The idea that you have the only proper
00:28:37.886 --> 00:28:39.428
understanding of the universe and everyone
00:28:39.468 --> 00:28:42.750
else is wrong is like incredibly,
00:28:42.970 --> 00:28:47.653
incredibly arrogant.
00:28:47.673 --> 00:28:50.496
It's just like,
00:28:50.536 --> 00:28:53.198
you're the center of the universe is wild.
00:28:53.458 --> 00:28:54.818
It's a wild stance to take.
00:28:54.838 --> 00:28:56.180
Yeah.
00:28:57.759 --> 00:28:59.040
But if you get people to believe in
00:28:59.060 --> 00:29:00.644
that, then it's really easy to abuse them.
00:29:00.763 --> 00:29:05.030
So there we go.
00:29:06.673 --> 00:29:07.213
And, you know...
00:29:09.135 --> 00:29:11.436
As religion dips and there are less people
00:29:11.517 --> 00:29:13.978
who are part of an organized religion,
00:29:14.417 --> 00:29:16.419
we see this dynamic playing in other
00:29:16.459 --> 00:29:16.799
places.
00:29:16.839 --> 00:29:17.079
Again,
00:29:18.019 --> 00:29:20.141
religions don't have a monopoly on this.
00:29:20.221 --> 00:29:21.902
We see it with the cult of personality
00:29:21.922 --> 00:29:23.903
around Elon Musk and some of the tech
00:29:23.923 --> 00:29:24.442
fascists,
00:29:25.042 --> 00:29:28.224
people who just needed somebody to tell
00:29:28.265 --> 00:29:28.505
them,
00:29:29.664 --> 00:29:31.726
that's really stupid and you're a moron
00:29:31.766 --> 00:29:32.807
for thinking like that.
00:29:33.650 --> 00:29:35.090
And people stopped telling them that
00:29:35.111 --> 00:29:36.332
because they had so much money.
00:29:36.711 --> 00:29:38.374
And that's a bad way to do things.
00:29:38.394 --> 00:29:42.297
It's why the world is burning and falling
00:29:42.317 --> 00:29:42.616
apart.
00:29:42.977 --> 00:29:44.038
And the tech fascists are like,
00:29:44.077 --> 00:29:45.338
maybe we should flee the country.
00:29:47.340 --> 00:29:49.382
Maybe we shouldn't do things based on how
00:29:49.402 --> 00:29:53.285
much money you can get for them.
00:29:53.404 --> 00:29:53.786
And again,
00:29:54.405 --> 00:29:55.906
if it was all just about being helpful,
00:29:56.208 --> 00:29:57.449
I think IFS is helpful.
00:29:58.356 --> 00:29:59.998
really have an issue with that i have
00:30:00.018 --> 00:30:01.759
an issue with one person's personal
00:30:01.798 --> 00:30:03.200
beliefs and the only reason i know their
00:30:03.240 --> 00:30:04.421
personal beliefs is because they're famous
00:30:04.461 --> 00:30:06.662
enough to go on podcasts and do interviews
00:30:06.721 --> 00:30:14.346
all the time about it that's all so
00:30:15.307 --> 00:30:19.310
yeah i i think cults is the wrong
00:30:19.351 --> 00:30:22.152
word i think cults of personality shows up
00:30:22.251 --> 00:30:24.753
in a lot of leadership dynamics uh across
00:30:24.794 --> 00:30:25.894
the board and i think
00:30:28.020 --> 00:30:29.423
It usually goes poorly.
00:30:30.364 --> 00:30:32.045
I wish it went poorly all of the
00:30:32.085 --> 00:30:34.007
time so people would stop being so
00:30:34.047 --> 00:30:34.887
rewarded for it.
00:30:34.968 --> 00:30:36.609
I wish there were more consequences for it
00:30:37.030 --> 00:30:38.451
beyond just the crash and burn.
00:30:41.255 --> 00:30:43.297
Sometimes we get that where we see people
00:30:43.657 --> 00:30:45.278
get their sort of comeuppance from getting
00:30:45.318 --> 00:30:47.902
too big of a head going beyond their
00:30:47.981 --> 00:30:48.643
actual potential.
00:30:49.921 --> 00:30:52.782
skill level um going beyond things that
00:30:52.803 --> 00:30:56.046
they could actually prove and stick to but
00:30:56.605 --> 00:30:58.567
you know grifters are gonna grift and some
00:30:58.587 --> 00:31:01.730
of the good grifters uh not morality wise
00:31:01.769 --> 00:31:02.931
grifters but some of the people who are
00:31:02.971 --> 00:31:04.531
good at grifting get out while they're
00:31:04.551 --> 00:31:06.814
getting still good and they get away with
00:31:06.854 --> 00:31:13.819
it womp womp so yeah i don't know
00:31:14.279 --> 00:31:15.861
to any like young therapists who are
00:31:15.901 --> 00:31:17.702
listening like don't
00:31:18.492 --> 00:31:19.973
pay all that money for those big
00:31:19.993 --> 00:31:20.713
certifications.
00:31:20.733 --> 00:31:21.994
You simply do not need them.
00:31:22.695 --> 00:31:27.258
You're very good at helping people if you
00:31:27.278 --> 00:31:29.058
have the evidence that the people you help
00:31:29.179 --> 00:31:30.720
are helped by working with you.
00:31:31.201 --> 00:31:32.961
Your clients will let you know if you're
00:31:32.981 --> 00:31:33.942
doing good work or not.
00:31:34.843 --> 00:31:37.324
And you can read books and you can
00:31:37.523 --> 00:31:39.164
watch videos and listen to podcasts.
00:31:39.305 --> 00:31:40.586
And when you find something that really
00:31:40.625 --> 00:31:41.066
resonates,
00:31:41.086 --> 00:31:44.107
if you feel the need to learn more
00:31:44.127 --> 00:31:46.609
because you want to, that's great.
00:31:48.076 --> 00:31:49.416
But I think too many therapists are out
00:31:49.457 --> 00:31:51.897
here chasing certifications because we're
00:31:51.978 --> 00:31:53.518
insecure ourselves.
00:31:54.959 --> 00:31:56.219
I think a good reason to get a
00:31:56.259 --> 00:31:58.159
certification is you want to learn more
00:31:58.278 --> 00:32:01.119
and you have a nuanced take on your
00:32:01.160 --> 00:32:06.760
clients and knowing one more school of
00:32:06.800 --> 00:32:07.060
thought,
00:32:07.080 --> 00:32:08.922
having one more certification isn't
00:32:09.932 --> 00:32:11.212
making you that much better of a
00:32:11.252 --> 00:32:11.772
therapist.
00:32:11.833 --> 00:32:13.354
It's not the final puzzle piece.
00:32:13.413 --> 00:32:15.015
It's just a different tool to use.
00:32:15.454 --> 00:32:15.714
But again,
00:32:15.755 --> 00:32:17.916
understanding schools of thought as tools
00:32:17.936 --> 00:32:19.897
to use is like, yeah, read the books,
00:32:20.018 --> 00:32:21.419
find the information that is readily
00:32:21.459 --> 00:32:21.919
available.
00:32:24.377 --> 00:32:27.501
what's helpful for people in therapy again
00:32:27.701 --> 00:32:30.346
and again and again every time we research
00:32:30.385 --> 00:32:32.788
this is the therapeutic relationship do
00:32:32.828 --> 00:32:34.590
you feel safe with your therapist do you
00:32:34.631 --> 00:32:36.334
feel heard does it seem like they
00:32:36.374 --> 00:32:38.056
genuinely have your best interests in mind
00:32:38.076 --> 00:32:39.938
and they're trying to help you that's what
00:32:39.958 --> 00:32:40.759
makes therapy work
00:32:41.420 --> 00:32:43.202
It's not any specific school of thought.
00:32:43.804 --> 00:32:45.406
It helps when therapists are practicing
00:32:45.446 --> 00:32:47.670
from a lens that they think is helpful.
00:32:47.750 --> 00:32:49.953
I think that lends authenticity to the
00:32:49.993 --> 00:32:53.058
process more than it lends like, again,
00:32:53.118 --> 00:32:54.842
some sort of capital T truth.
00:32:56.050 --> 00:32:57.991
um and you know i didn't even get
00:32:58.031 --> 00:33:00.433
into like philosophy and and academia but
00:33:00.473 --> 00:33:02.075
like this is a huge issue in academia
00:33:02.695 --> 00:33:04.817
um again i think it's where like you
00:33:04.836 --> 00:33:06.077
see some great thinkers like
00:33:06.758 --> 00:33:10.480
post-modernism like i love fuko's like
00:33:10.540 --> 00:33:16.244
first four books and after that he falls
00:33:16.365 --> 00:33:17.806
off um
00:33:18.717 --> 00:33:20.738
probably does too many drugs and starts
00:33:21.077 --> 00:33:22.298
doing the thing where he talks about doing
00:33:22.317 --> 00:33:23.439
a lot of drugs and having a lot
00:33:23.459 --> 00:33:25.819
of kinky sex which is cool and i'm
00:33:25.839 --> 00:33:26.980
not throwing shade at either of those
00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:29.240
things but like your understanding of the
00:33:29.260 --> 00:33:31.221
human experience because you got laid this
00:33:31.521 --> 00:33:34.663
is not particularly interesting or useful
00:33:34.702 --> 00:33:38.743
to other people um same with psychedelics
00:33:38.763 --> 00:33:41.025
like i'm a big fan and cannot wait
00:33:41.045 --> 00:33:42.305
for them to get legalized in the
00:33:42.325 --> 00:33:43.786
therapeutic setting and
00:33:44.833 --> 00:33:45.393
somebody who's like,
00:33:45.932 --> 00:33:47.513
don't go talk about your experiences
00:33:47.534 --> 00:33:49.375
because it's just that.
00:33:49.674 --> 00:33:51.075
It's just your experience.
00:33:51.935 --> 00:33:52.655
And again,
00:33:52.715 --> 00:33:54.256
the hubris that's required to say,
00:33:54.356 --> 00:33:58.018
my experience is so all-encompassing that
00:33:58.117 --> 00:33:59.979
it can then therefore help other people is
00:34:00.019 --> 00:34:01.358
like pretty wild.
00:34:01.479 --> 00:34:02.940
A lot of therapists get into therapy
00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:05.161
because they're messed up themselves or
00:34:05.340 --> 00:34:06.540
they were at a point in their life
00:34:06.560 --> 00:34:07.780
where therapy was really helpful and then
00:34:07.800 --> 00:34:08.681
they wanted to do that.
00:34:08.762 --> 00:34:11.463
And like, you know, I think the second,
00:34:11.943 --> 00:34:13.744
the latter option is better than the
00:34:13.784 --> 00:34:14.143
former,
00:34:14.204 --> 00:34:14.583
but like
00:34:15.851 --> 00:34:18.052
To want to help people is good.
00:34:19.293 --> 00:34:19.474
Again,
00:34:19.713 --> 00:34:21.074
I think therapy would look so much
00:34:21.114 --> 00:34:23.856
different if we had a better economic
00:34:23.896 --> 00:34:24.237
system.
00:34:24.597 --> 00:34:26.378
I think if people's basic needs were met,
00:34:26.818 --> 00:34:28.219
people would approach therapy different
00:34:28.340 --> 00:34:29.820
and therapists would approach therapy
00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:30.161
different.
00:34:30.661 --> 00:34:31.702
And we wouldn't even be having this
00:34:31.742 --> 00:34:33.023
conversation because there would be no
00:34:33.083 --> 00:34:35.125
benefit to like trying to get famous and
00:34:35.164 --> 00:34:37.646
become an expensive self-help guru.
00:34:40.719 --> 00:34:42.503
I could list some therapists who I really
00:34:42.563 --> 00:34:44.625
like who did not ever get famous outside
00:34:44.664 --> 00:34:45.126
of their field.
00:34:45.547 --> 00:34:47.648
And somebody who's older than me could be
00:34:47.668 --> 00:34:49.472
like, oh, you love Michael White?
00:34:49.532 --> 00:34:51.193
He's actually really expensive to book.
00:34:51.213 --> 00:34:51.994
And yeah,
00:34:52.074 --> 00:34:53.657
I would have no way to know that.
00:34:54.038 --> 00:34:54.398
I don't.
00:34:55.119 --> 00:34:56.902
My experience, pretty niche.
00:34:57.923 --> 00:34:59.045
I love Harleen Anderson.
00:34:59.105 --> 00:35:00.525
I don't know how much she is to
00:35:00.545 --> 00:35:00.804
book,
00:35:00.864 --> 00:35:02.385
but I've been at conferences with her,
00:35:02.405 --> 00:35:04.447
and I'm guessing it's not something that's
00:35:04.467 --> 00:35:05.806
going to break the bank like Richard
00:35:05.847 --> 00:35:06.288
Schwartz.
00:35:08.288 --> 00:35:10.648
I even know this for low-level comedians.
00:35:11.650 --> 00:35:12.750
I like Charlie Berenz,
00:35:12.769 --> 00:35:13.710
and if you're in the Midwest,
00:35:13.791 --> 00:35:15.170
you know the Manitowoc Minute.
00:35:15.210 --> 00:35:16.632
Some of his comedy, and it's really funny,
00:35:16.672 --> 00:35:18.333
and I can tell you the rate that
00:35:18.353 --> 00:35:20.213
he charges for an hour to do a
00:35:21.034 --> 00:35:23.074
stand-up show at a college is higher than
00:35:23.094 --> 00:35:23.695
you would think.
00:35:24.335 --> 00:35:25.956
And also the colleges that are spending
00:35:26.016 --> 00:35:27.518
money on stuff like that while cutting
00:35:27.958 --> 00:35:31.061
mental health funding is also a non-zero
00:35:31.121 --> 00:35:32.342
number.
00:35:32.382 --> 00:35:32.963
Not great.
00:35:35.606 --> 00:35:37.168
But I don't need to rant and rave
00:35:37.188 --> 00:35:38.548
about my own personal experience.
00:35:40.391 --> 00:35:44.034
I think we as a species do better
00:35:44.074 --> 00:35:45.876
in community because we need community
00:35:45.896 --> 00:35:47.637
around us to, again,
00:35:47.697 --> 00:35:48.518
tell us when we're
00:35:49.639 --> 00:35:51.019
get a little too full of ourselves.
00:35:51.059 --> 00:35:52.420
Again, I think we need that reality check.
00:35:52.460 --> 00:35:54.242
I think people need to interact with
00:35:54.262 --> 00:35:56.565
people who are smarter than them in other
00:35:56.605 --> 00:35:57.005
ways.
00:35:57.465 --> 00:35:57.585
Again,
00:35:57.806 --> 00:36:01.268
it's one of the things that is really
00:36:01.309 --> 00:36:02.469
helpful for me is like,
00:36:02.989 --> 00:36:04.451
I spend my time around a lot of
00:36:04.711 --> 00:36:07.173
people who are so much smarter than me
00:36:08.494 --> 00:36:10.315
and shockingly in a lot of ways,
00:36:10.456 --> 00:36:11.336
dumber than me.
00:36:12.117 --> 00:36:15.199
And that sort of has built my worldview
00:36:15.219 --> 00:36:16.061
of like, yeah,
00:36:17.260 --> 00:36:18.101
we're all really, really,
00:36:18.141 --> 00:36:19.724
really wonderful in our own unique ways.
00:36:19.744 --> 00:36:20.746
And we're all really, really,
00:36:20.786 --> 00:36:25.954
really befuddlingly silly in our other
00:36:25.994 --> 00:36:26.255
ways.
00:36:28.097 --> 00:36:30.018
It's a new take on one of my
00:36:30.438 --> 00:36:31.159
older mantras.
00:36:31.199 --> 00:36:31.278
See,
00:36:32.840 --> 00:36:34.159
I like to think I'm good at words,
00:36:34.239 --> 00:36:37.782
and I just stumbled over befuddlingly,
00:36:38.103 --> 00:36:40.784
which isn't a word.
00:36:44.405 --> 00:36:45.987
But to spend time around people who are
00:36:46.047 --> 00:36:46.987
really good at things,
00:36:47.788 --> 00:36:48.949
that are different than the things that
00:36:48.969 --> 00:36:50.769
you're really good is helpful for us.
00:36:50.809 --> 00:36:50.989
Again,
00:36:51.010 --> 00:36:52.351
it's part of the reason community is so
00:36:52.371 --> 00:36:52.791
important.
00:36:53.291 --> 00:36:54.371
And you don't have to be good at
00:36:54.452 --> 00:36:54.972
everything.
00:36:55.032 --> 00:36:56.074
Young therapists,
00:36:56.114 --> 00:36:57.755
you don't have to be good at everything.
00:36:57.815 --> 00:36:59.695
Get a good referral list and refer people
00:36:59.876 --> 00:37:00.056
out.
00:37:01.416 --> 00:37:02.757
My clients who are doing really,
00:37:02.797 --> 00:37:06.480
really well are often coming to me after
00:37:06.500 --> 00:37:08.041
working with other therapists or still
00:37:08.061 --> 00:37:09.021
have other therapists.
00:37:09.061 --> 00:37:11.523
They have their team of specialists.
00:37:12.244 --> 00:37:12.684
And again,
00:37:12.885 --> 00:37:14.324
that's not accessible to everyone.
00:37:14.525 --> 00:37:15.126
I get that.
00:37:15.146 --> 00:37:16.447
But wouldn't that be cool?
00:37:18.596 --> 00:37:22.856
i think it would be cool so yes
00:37:22.976 --> 00:37:26.559
be wary of therapists who become high
00:37:26.599 --> 00:37:29.900
priests beware of high priests in general
00:37:31.179 --> 00:37:34.201
beware of dogma again anything that is not
00:37:34.601 --> 00:37:37.581
at least being open to self-criticism
00:37:37.621 --> 00:37:40.103
being open to external criticism as well
00:37:40.242 --> 00:37:43.164
anything that isn't constantly looking at
00:37:43.224 --> 00:37:45.065
itself with a critical eye
00:37:46.007 --> 00:37:48.447
deserves to be looked at with a critical
00:37:48.608 --> 00:37:48.768
eye.
00:37:53.811 --> 00:37:54.530
That's the point.
00:37:57.172 --> 00:37:59.592
Nonprofits, for-profit organizations,
00:37:59.652 --> 00:38:02.173
whomever may tune into my podcast,
00:38:02.213 --> 00:38:05.835
stop overpaying for people who are the big
00:38:05.876 --> 00:38:06.215
name.
00:38:07.257 --> 00:38:08.777
Get just like a regular person.
00:38:09.217 --> 00:38:10.737
Part of my approach to my podcast,
00:38:10.757 --> 00:38:12.358
and this is not like I understand
00:38:12.398 --> 00:38:14.739
podcasting and capital T truth,
00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:16.900
But part of my approach to podcasting was
00:38:16.920 --> 00:38:17.960
getting regular people on.
00:38:18.121 --> 00:38:19.521
Yes, I've chased some big names.
00:38:19.601 --> 00:38:21.422
I've gotten some big names on the podcast
00:38:21.581 --> 00:38:23.041
and some of my favorite episodes,
00:38:23.663 --> 00:38:26.623
both as a host and for like episodes
00:38:26.643 --> 00:38:28.003
that actually turned out well and had good
00:38:28.043 --> 00:38:28.704
listenership.
00:38:29.563 --> 00:38:30.764
We're not the big famous people.
00:38:31.344 --> 00:38:32.525
Some of the people who are the most
00:38:32.585 --> 00:38:34.365
work to land on the podcast have the
00:38:34.445 --> 00:38:36.686
lowest number of downloads because those
00:38:36.726 --> 00:38:39.306
people don't care about my podcast and
00:38:39.347 --> 00:38:41.847
didn't promote it at all because it's one
00:38:41.887 --> 00:38:43.429
of a dozen that they've been on in
00:38:43.449 --> 00:38:44.128
the past year.
00:38:44.693 --> 00:38:45.632
And I'm not throwing shade.
00:38:45.833 --> 00:38:46.753
That's not sour grapes.
00:38:46.773 --> 00:38:47.554
I'm not complaining.
00:38:47.574 --> 00:38:50.074
That's a thing that I learned by being
00:38:50.114 --> 00:38:52.115
in the podcast game for a while of
00:38:52.155 --> 00:38:52.795
like, oh,
00:38:53.516 --> 00:38:55.436
when I get some therapist who's a really
00:38:55.476 --> 00:38:57.717
great therapist but isn't a big social
00:38:57.737 --> 00:38:59.619
media person, isn't famous,
00:38:59.659 --> 00:39:01.139
hasn't written a book, blah, blah, blah,
00:39:01.159 --> 00:39:01.639
blah, blah,
00:39:02.159 --> 00:39:03.719
they're like so jazzed to be on a
00:39:03.780 --> 00:39:04.360
podcast.
00:39:04.420 --> 00:39:05.460
And if it goes well,
00:39:05.501 --> 00:39:07.581
they're going to tell everybody they know
00:39:07.621 --> 00:39:08.842
that they were on a podcast.
00:39:08.983 --> 00:39:10.882
That makes so much more of a difference.
00:39:11.603 --> 00:39:12.804
Again, I'm not pulling –
00:39:14.880 --> 00:39:17.021
podcast numbers where I'm a top five
00:39:17.121 --> 00:39:17.422
earner.
00:39:18.163 --> 00:39:19.983
My podcast does not make me money.
00:39:21.724 --> 00:39:23.184
But I think those conversations are a lot
00:39:23.244 --> 00:39:24.585
more rich and interesting.
00:39:24.706 --> 00:39:26.427
And I also think, again,
00:39:26.487 --> 00:39:28.588
like chasing the big name is not always
00:39:28.628 --> 00:39:29.128
great.
00:39:29.148 --> 00:39:31.289
My favorite episode is with a comic book
00:39:31.329 --> 00:39:34.451
writer who really honestly had no reason
00:39:34.471 --> 00:39:36.070
to say yes, other than I was like,
00:39:37.112 --> 00:39:38.972
let's talk about religious trauma in
00:39:38.992 --> 00:39:39.413
comics.
00:39:39.512 --> 00:39:40.614
Also, you like pro wrestling.
00:39:40.893 --> 00:39:42.353
I too love pro wrestling.
00:39:42.393 --> 00:39:43.394
Should we be friends?
00:39:44.840 --> 00:39:46.282
and we're not friends but he did agree
00:39:46.302 --> 00:39:49.443
to be on my podcast so that's cool
00:39:50.826 --> 00:39:55.188
in another world we could be friends um
00:39:55.208 --> 00:39:57.371
so again like there's nuance there i'm not
00:39:57.411 --> 00:39:59.572
saying like don't get people who are
00:39:59.612 --> 00:40:00.934
really interesting that you want to talk
00:40:00.954 --> 00:40:03.195
to to speak at your conference but also
00:40:03.275 --> 00:40:06.179
like to be like oh we got richard
00:40:06.478 --> 00:40:08.981
schwartz everyone should be so excited is
00:40:09.001 --> 00:40:10.141
i don't
00:40:10.161 --> 00:40:12.443
know just tone deaf especially for that
00:40:12.483 --> 00:40:15.985
guy specifically if you're dropping
00:40:16.626 --> 00:40:18.226
thousands of dollars to go to a conference
00:40:18.246 --> 00:40:19.907
because Bessel van der Kolk is talking
00:40:20.007 --> 00:40:22.550
like I would say don't do that find
00:40:22.710 --> 00:40:25.612
a more affordable option because he
00:40:25.652 --> 00:40:28.032
doesn't have the keys to the universe you
00:40:28.052 --> 00:40:29.534
can find a lot of other people who
00:40:29.574 --> 00:40:31.335
are doing trauma work who are probably
00:40:31.856 --> 00:40:34.838
more affordable and you very well might
00:40:34.878 --> 00:40:39.641
learn more from them you know
00:40:42.804 --> 00:40:46.329
really specific to therapists today other
00:40:46.349 --> 00:40:48.572
people again like find a therapist who's a
00:40:48.592 --> 00:40:50.293
good fit if you're tuning in just for
00:40:50.313 --> 00:40:51.755
the mental health things and like thanks
00:40:51.795 --> 00:40:56.099
for sticking it out to minute here um
00:40:56.780 --> 00:40:59.344
you know like yes hopefully whoever you're
00:40:59.384 --> 00:41:01.847
working with gives you other resources i
00:41:01.907 --> 00:41:02.987
tend to send my clients
00:41:03.708 --> 00:41:05.050
especially when I'm doing stuff with
00:41:05.110 --> 00:41:05.949
neurodivergent.
00:41:06.909 --> 00:41:08.570
I'm really helpful at understanding the
00:41:08.590 --> 00:41:10.572
specific neurotype because I have it.
00:41:10.612 --> 00:41:11.652
And I've lived with it for a long
00:41:11.692 --> 00:41:11.972
time.
00:41:12.431 --> 00:41:14.552
And I know not just what it's like
00:41:14.592 --> 00:41:15.092
to live with it,
00:41:15.132 --> 00:41:16.813
but also all the psychology stuff.
00:41:18.253 --> 00:41:18.894
Not all,
00:41:19.534 --> 00:41:21.436
but I have this background in psychology
00:41:21.556 --> 00:41:23.335
and also lots of years of living with
00:41:23.376 --> 00:41:24.117
this neurotype.
00:41:24.137 --> 00:41:26.016
But it's not everybody's version of Audi
00:41:26.217 --> 00:41:26.336
HD.
00:41:28.333 --> 00:41:30.356
And so, yeah,
00:41:30.635 --> 00:41:32.036
I send them a bunch of stuff from
00:41:32.197 --> 00:41:34.800
other ADHD therapists, from other authors,
00:41:34.840 --> 00:41:35.159
writers.
00:41:35.219 --> 00:41:37.541
I generally send them two links that have
00:41:37.702 --> 00:41:39.884
huge resource directories attached to
00:41:39.923 --> 00:41:42.206
them.
00:41:42.226 --> 00:41:44.168
Therapyforpetpeople.com, which is Dr.
00:41:44.188 --> 00:41:44.967
Christine Henry,
00:41:44.987 --> 00:41:46.048
who's been on the podcast,
00:41:47.990 --> 00:41:50.233
and ndtherapist.com, great resources.
00:41:51.710 --> 00:41:54.431
NDtherapist.com is a directory for
00:41:54.452 --> 00:41:55.512
neurodivergent therapists,
00:41:55.592 --> 00:41:56.233
which is lovely.
00:41:56.652 --> 00:41:58.074
Their resource tab is really good.
00:41:58.534 --> 00:41:59.614
And so again,
00:42:00.416 --> 00:42:01.677
your therapist should be sending you
00:42:01.697 --> 00:42:01.996
stuff.
00:42:02.597 --> 00:42:05.498
On my bookshelf is a book by Stephen
00:42:05.539 --> 00:42:06.059
Hassan,
00:42:06.519 --> 00:42:08.722
Marlene Winnell's Leaving the Folds,
00:42:08.922 --> 00:42:10.422
a bunch of books by Richard Carrier.
00:42:11.884 --> 00:42:13.284
I think I still have Gottman.
00:42:13.485 --> 00:42:15.326
I think I probably have Seven Principles
00:42:15.346 --> 00:42:16.206
for Making Marriage Work.
00:42:17.887 --> 00:42:19.748
Again, like the therapist saying,
00:42:19.869 --> 00:42:22.271
here are other voices on this topic.
00:42:22.351 --> 00:42:24.532
Here are things that might help you learn.
00:42:24.891 --> 00:42:26.213
If what I have said to you is
00:42:26.253 --> 00:42:27.253
helpful and interesting,
00:42:27.333 --> 00:42:29.655
perhaps you would learn also things from
00:42:29.695 --> 00:42:30.255
this person.
00:42:30.815 --> 00:42:32.838
I think like that's a green flag,
00:42:33.697 --> 00:42:34.719
green therapy flag.
00:42:34.898 --> 00:42:36.380
Your therapist offers you a bunch of
00:42:36.420 --> 00:42:37.561
resources because again,
00:42:38.041 --> 00:42:39.382
that personal relationship that you have
00:42:39.402 --> 00:42:41.242
with your therapist and that personalized
00:42:41.403 --> 00:42:42.463
information you're getting from your
00:42:42.483 --> 00:42:44.184
therapist is unique and very helpful.
00:42:44.324 --> 00:42:46.186
And also they learned it somewhere.
00:42:47.628 --> 00:42:48.528
The information they're sharing,
00:42:48.568 --> 00:42:49.088
they learned.
00:42:49.130 --> 00:42:52.313
It's not particularly unique, probably.
00:42:52.592 --> 00:42:55.596
So yeah, there.
00:42:56.056 --> 00:42:57.277
That's accessible for everyone.
00:42:57.458 --> 00:42:58.398
Green flag of therapy.
00:42:58.918 --> 00:43:00.460
Your therapist offers you a ton of other
00:43:00.481 --> 00:43:00.981
resources.
00:43:01.822 --> 00:43:03.264
I also, unsolicited, offer...
00:43:04.706 --> 00:43:05.527
Book recommendations,
00:43:05.608 --> 00:43:06.568
especially comic books.
00:43:06.588 --> 00:43:07.969
It's the middle shelf of my bookshelf.
00:43:08.110 --> 00:43:09.990
The top shelf is Malazan Book of the
00:43:10.010 --> 00:43:11.132
Fallen by Stephen Erickson.
00:43:11.552 --> 00:43:12.652
So everybody should read that.
00:43:13.693 --> 00:43:14.994
Probably not good for your mental health.
00:43:15.054 --> 00:43:17.016
It is very depressing at certain points,
00:43:17.436 --> 00:43:18.958
but it's a lovely journey to go on.
00:43:20.018 --> 00:43:20.340
It's not.
00:43:20.420 --> 00:43:21.780
It's a super depressing journey to go on.
00:43:21.981 --> 00:43:23.882
It's a worthwhile experience.
00:43:26.445 --> 00:43:27.445
We're off topic.
00:43:27.686 --> 00:43:27.885
Man,
00:43:27.985 --> 00:43:29.146
I should get Stephen Erickson on the
00:43:29.166 --> 00:43:29.686
podcast.
00:43:30.327 --> 00:43:31.248
That would be awesome.
00:43:32.170 --> 00:43:35.710
see nuance of i just said don't do
00:43:35.751 --> 00:43:39.012
that i have not paid anybody uh for
00:43:39.032 --> 00:43:40.833
being on my podcast because i don't have
00:43:41.393 --> 00:43:43.532
a podcast to make money i've given people
00:43:43.552 --> 00:43:50.175
some mugs some t-shirts so all right i
00:43:50.195 --> 00:43:51.596
don't know i don't have a good outro
00:43:51.635 --> 00:43:54.217
here uh if you're doing parts work with
00:43:54.237 --> 00:43:56.577
your therapist and it is nice and helpful
00:43:56.717 --> 00:43:59.057
that's great if uh you
00:44:00.719 --> 00:44:03.541
are wondering if it's more than a
00:44:03.581 --> 00:44:04.083
metaphor.
00:44:04.362 --> 00:44:04.903
It's not.
00:44:07.144 --> 00:44:10.088
If you're somehow tuned in still at this
00:44:10.128 --> 00:44:11.588
point in the podcast and you're still a
00:44:11.648 --> 00:44:12.389
religious person,
00:44:12.829 --> 00:44:13.911
if you're wondering if it's more than a
00:44:13.951 --> 00:44:15.431
metaphor, it's not.
00:44:17.733 --> 00:44:19.295
Getting a little chirpy here at the end.
00:44:19.315 --> 00:44:21.217
All right, that's what I got.
00:44:23.117 --> 00:44:24.420
I'm going on vacation soon,
00:44:24.460 --> 00:44:27.983
but I'll have an episode.
00:44:28.242 --> 00:44:29.304
I'll have an episode before I go on
00:44:29.344 --> 00:44:29.764
vacation.
00:44:30.815 --> 00:44:32.556
I'm saying it now so I remember to
00:44:32.597 --> 00:44:33.936
do it before I leave on vacation.
00:44:35.097 --> 00:44:36.237
But take care of yourself.
00:44:39.659 --> 00:44:40.280
Take care of yourself.
00:44:40.360 --> 00:44:41.161
Take care of somebody else.
00:44:41.860 --> 00:44:44.481
Go on vacation if you are interested in
00:44:44.501 --> 00:44:45.702
that and capable of doing it.
00:44:46.023 --> 00:44:46.902
It's good to take breaks.
00:44:49.143 --> 00:44:49.403
All right.
00:44:49.523 --> 00:44:49.744
Yeah.
00:44:49.804 --> 00:44:50.344
Take care of yourself.
00:44:50.364 --> 00:44:51.244
Take care of somebody else.
00:44:51.344 --> 00:44:51.985
Peace and love.
00:44:54.085 --> 00:44:54.846
All the good things.
00:44:55.407 --> 00:44:55.987
Peace out, y'all.