Your Therapist Needs Therapy
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Your Therapist Needs Therapy
Your Therapist Needs Therapy 157 - You Are What You Eat, Algorithm Edition
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This week Jeremy looks at the algorithms we consume. Jeremy breaks down how these mindless math equations actively shape who we become by rewarding outrage, insecurity, and endless engagement over truth and connection. We touch on how the attention economy reinforces the same psychological patterns found in authoritarian systems, from identity formation to fear-based messaging, and why that's so profitable. Most importantly, we discuss how reclaiming our attention, building real community, and choosing what feeds our minds can become acts of resistance in a world designed to keep us scrolling. Alternate title for the episode was “They see me scrollin’, they hatin’” but it wasn’t quite accurate on messaging.
To support survivors of religious trauma you can donate at this link!
As always, Jeremy has all his practice info at Wellness with Jer, and you can find him on Instagram and YouTube. You can donate directly to support religious trauma survivors here. We appreciate support from likes, follows, and shares as well! None of my online work would be possible without my media maven Kenny, so check out their work as well at kenlingdesign.com
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Podcasts about therapy do not replace actual therapy, and listening to a podcast about therapy does not signify a therapeutic relationship.If you or someone you know is in crisis please call or text the nationwide crisis line at 988, or text HELLO to 741741. The Trevor Project has a crisis line for LGBTQ+ young people that can be reached by texting 678678.
Hello,
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and welcome to another edition of Your
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Therapist Needs Therapy.
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Your friendly neighborhood therapist,
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Jeremy Schumacher.
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I'm a licensed marriage and family
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therapist.
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Today,
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let's talk about what you're consuming.
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on the interwebs me right now how'd you
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find me wellness with chair was a big
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mistake when it comes to seo searchability
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the internet just thinks that's a type out
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a type out a typo uh for wellness
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with her who's the her no one knows
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it's more mysterious that way
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there's a therapist who locked down,
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take care with Jer.
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And I'm really just furious that I didn't
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think of that, but good for them.
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That's really good.
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One of my clients is fairly invested that
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I should rename my practice Therapy with
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Jeremy, which has a certain lilt to it,
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but you have to pronounce it that very
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specific way.
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And I don't like near rhymes.
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Anyway, yeah, I mean,
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you found your way to me,
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which is really cool.
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And some of you did it because you
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know me or you're familiar with my work
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or you heard my ad on the radio
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or you saw me at the film festival
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at Pride or whatever.
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I am out and about somewhat frequently.
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And some of you found me because you've
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searched for mental health related topics
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on the interwebs.
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Maybe your podcast feed recommended this
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because you listen to other mental health
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stuff.
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Maybe you're on YouTube and stumbled your
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way across and saw the long hair and
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bearded cutout that gets used for the
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thumbnail.
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I never know which one it is.
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That's what I have media people for.
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Media person for, hey, Ken, you're great.
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Thanks for all your work.
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Today we're going to talk about algorithms
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and what's behind them.
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Evil capitalist overlords.
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Obviously,
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but with a little bit more nuance than
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that.
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I think that's somewhat established that
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social media ruins our mental health and
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also
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billionaires are unethical,
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topics I've covered before,
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and also topics that I think are more
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readily accessible to more people,
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although that's just what's in my feed.
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So perhaps your internet looks very
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different than mine,
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but that's sort of what we're gonna get
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into, right?
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Like what's going on with the internet
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that different people are sort of,
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not just sort of,
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like are really experiencing different
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realities and why?
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And if you're excitedly clapping your
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hands saying,
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I bet Jeremy is going to talk about
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French philosophers today,
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you are correct.
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We're going to go back to some of
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the postmodern thinkers who talked about
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this stuff in the sixties because called
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it.
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I don't know that any of them are
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still alive.
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Most of them are dead.
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That's a long time ago.
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Paul McCartney is still around.
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So some people who were maybe young and
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upcoming back in the day are still around.
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We still have elected officials,
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although there are fewer than there used
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to be in that age range,
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which is pretty exciting.
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Still a couple of big ones that...
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can die peacefully in their sleep,
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for all I care.
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Yeah, let's talk about algorithms.
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You know,
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I had the idea for this topic because
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I rewatched season one of Silicon Valley,
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Silicon Valley.
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I feel like people on the West Coast
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don't enunciate,
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don't add the emphasis at the end of
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the word, Silicon, Silicon Valley.
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um and i a midwesterner i'm like silicon
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valley those tech people really really
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know what they're doing with the big data
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centers ruin the great lakes right next to
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us again that's not how people talk from
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here i i'm from here and this is
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how i talk um the algorithm feeds us
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content
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And content is mediated before it ever
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reaches our eyes.
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And so we're getting a weird subset of
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what's out there.
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Um, and it,
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it depends a lot on what you click
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and this affects the sort of narratives
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and the story you tell about the real
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world, quote unquote.
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real world not the mtv show was it
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on mtv um i only know about that
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because the ms who's a pro professional
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wrestler uh not the cool brewers pitcher
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who's a much better version of the ms
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of the pro wrestler ms was on the
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real world i don't actually know what this
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reality tv show that's all i know um
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the stories we tell ourselves about the
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real world the universe we're living in
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and experiencing currently um
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about politics, about therapy,
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about movies that are good or bad.
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It's the content we consume is all
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algorithmic.
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Now,
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algorithms have been around for a while.
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They're just a mathematic tool.
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They're not thinking.
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They're not sentient.
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I would argue they've almost exclusively
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been used for evil purposes.
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because insurance companies were using
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algorithms long before we became familiar
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with the term related to social media as
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a way to decline people coverage because
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insurance only can exist in so far that
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it denies what should be paid for.
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That is their model.
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That's a separate episode, though,
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where I complain more about insurance
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companies.
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That's an episode I've already done and
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will probably have to revisit because
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America.
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So our algorithms feed our psychological
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attention span.
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And also, you are what you eat, right?
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That's the title of the episode.
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They feed our attention span.
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They also dictate our attention span to
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us.
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And that's the trippy sort of high level.
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It's not high level.
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The levels that we have to keep in
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head.
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There are going to be multiple levels of
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things we're talking about here.
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We're talking nuance.
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Algorithms are bad.
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Fact.
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Why and how and what do we do
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about it?
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If I remember to close the episode out
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correctly.
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We'll see.
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That doesn't always happen.
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This is why I don't do outlines because
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I have great ideas and then I get
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sidetracked.
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One of the first thing, I mean,
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I think that first level algorithms are
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bad is people are aware that the
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algorithms are optimized for engagement
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and not accuracy.
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And so the algorithms that express
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outrage, that are rage bait,
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that are trendy buzzwords without really
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saying much, again,
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I really struggle
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Clients send me stuff often, not often,
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somewhat regularly.
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It's not like a daily occurrence,
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but clients will often send me stuff and
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they want my opinion on it,
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which again is super...
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I'm super grateful that my clients do want
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like, hey,
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person we have a real life relationship
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with who is an expert in this specific
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field,
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what do you think about this video I'm
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sending you?
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Because again,
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I think that's a great way to use
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the internet.
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I think that's interesting.
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I wonder what so-and-so who was actually
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well-informed on this topic would say
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about this.
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So I like that.
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And a lot of it is...
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Overly simplistic, because again,
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what engagement is rewarding nowadays with
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short form media like YouTube Shorts,
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TikTok, Instagram Reels, all that stuff,
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that short form media is engagement.
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Did you stay on the whole video?
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Did you watch for a certain number of
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time?
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Data that I get regularly that I don't
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really care about is like how many people
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stay watching or listening to my videos.
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The reason I don't care about that is
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because like I don't ever change how I'm
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doing it because I know a bunch of
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people click away in the first five
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minutes while I preamble my episode before
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getting to the point because I need it
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for dopamine.
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it's engagement, right?
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A lot of these things are geared towards
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engagement.
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And so those people who do like long
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fingernails and click on everything while
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they're making like a gross smoothie,
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like that's rage bait, right?
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That's engagement or like the people who
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are into ASMR.
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So again, there's, there've been,
00:08:52.600 --> 00:08:54.303
Certain things that sort of rise that are
00:08:54.384 --> 00:08:54.845
just like,
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they only exist because the internet
00:08:56.687 --> 00:08:58.110
exists in its current form.
00:08:59.192 --> 00:09:00.894
Something like that shit wouldn't have
00:09:00.913 --> 00:09:02.517
worked on Vine back in the day,
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if y'all are old enough to remember Vine.
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don't even want to say the glory days
00:09:10.167 --> 00:09:11.687
of the internet because there was there
00:09:11.707 --> 00:09:13.048
was plenty that wasn't good about the
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internet back then too um but the question
00:09:18.572 --> 00:09:20.114
of that the algorithms are looking for is
00:09:20.134 --> 00:09:22.554
did you click on something did you stay
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on the page for a certain amount of
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time did you go back to the page
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so it's monitoring the scrolling that
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happens but it's tracking the engagement
00:09:30.961 --> 00:09:33.543
people scroll that's the expectation what
00:09:33.562 --> 00:09:35.823
it's specifically looking out uh for and
00:09:36.004 --> 00:09:37.965
mapping and charting and keeping tabs on
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is what
00:09:38.985 --> 00:09:39.927
held your attention?
00:09:39.947 --> 00:09:41.350
What did you engage with?
00:09:41.951 --> 00:09:43.654
Because what they're going for is not some
00:09:43.696 --> 00:09:45.158
sort of agreed upon reality,
00:09:45.177 --> 00:09:46.480
but is reinforcement.
00:09:47.235 --> 00:09:50.397
if you got mad about this thing,
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we're going to send you more of that
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thing because that reinforces the idea
00:09:53.136 --> 00:09:55.457
that that is a thing,
00:09:55.837 --> 00:09:57.437
which is how we get people who are
00:09:57.498 --> 00:09:59.278
so devoid of reality.
00:09:59.977 --> 00:10:01.458
If you ever have the misfortune of
00:10:01.499 --> 00:10:03.359
listening to a Republican talk for a long
00:10:03.399 --> 00:10:03.639
time,
00:10:03.999 --> 00:10:05.458
they're going to say a bunch of weird
00:10:05.619 --> 00:10:08.419
stuff because many of them lack critical
00:10:08.440 --> 00:10:09.019
thinking skills.
00:10:09.039 --> 00:10:10.039
That's why they're Republican.
00:10:11.321 --> 00:10:12.921
And two, they're,
00:10:14.096 --> 00:10:16.736
Liberality is very shallow and odd.
00:10:16.817 --> 00:10:20.798
It's conspiratorial since the the the
00:10:20.839 --> 00:10:23.159
Trump one point no presidency and then
00:10:23.220 --> 00:10:25.421
QAnon and everything that sort of happened
00:10:25.461 --> 00:10:26.501
with that covid.
00:10:27.302 --> 00:10:28.842
All of these things have have leaned
00:10:28.903 --> 00:10:29.863
conspiratorial.
00:10:29.942 --> 00:10:32.224
And so you get people you get they're
00:10:32.283 --> 00:10:34.765
eating cats and dogs in a presidential
00:10:34.806 --> 00:10:36.186
debate and somehow like that's not
00:10:36.306 --> 00:10:37.346
disqualifying.
00:10:38.006 --> 00:10:40.870
because that's what an old demented man
00:10:40.929 --> 00:10:43.251
sees in his feed who is never smart
00:10:43.272 --> 00:10:46.234
to begin with and has dementia and zero
00:10:46.254 --> 00:10:47.154
critical thinking skills.
00:10:47.676 --> 00:10:49.356
But that's what he's consuming.
00:10:49.897 --> 00:10:52.759
And also that can get filtered out for
00:10:52.820 --> 00:10:54.942
people who aren't supposed to see that,
00:10:54.981 --> 00:10:58.705
for people whose experience of the world
00:10:58.945 --> 00:11:01.407
is that's a good businessman.
00:11:03.991 --> 00:11:05.472
And so the algorithm cuts both ways,
00:11:05.513 --> 00:11:05.753
right?
00:11:06.072 --> 00:11:08.494
It reinforces a perceived reality for
00:11:08.553 --> 00:11:10.033
people based on their engagement,
00:11:10.474 --> 00:11:11.995
and it excludes things that might
00:11:12.034 --> 00:11:15.235
challenge that perception to keep people
00:11:15.895 --> 00:11:18.797
sort of filtered in those various ways.
00:11:19.258 --> 00:11:20.518
And again, it's not just right-wing.
00:11:20.778 --> 00:11:22.818
I think a lot of wellness culture,
00:11:22.918 --> 00:11:26.340
I think a lot of sort of hope,
00:11:26.440 --> 00:11:28.100
cope bullshit that
00:11:29.190 --> 00:11:31.413
liberals i'll say especially white
00:11:31.452 --> 00:11:35.519
liberals are consuming are like rest is
00:11:36.179 --> 00:11:39.644
resistance type memes and like i've talked
00:11:39.664 --> 00:11:42.349
about that concept before as a slogan that
00:11:42.408 --> 00:11:44.932
is fine it means more than that right
00:11:45.594 --> 00:11:45.714
um
00:11:46.817 --> 00:11:48.418
again i think specifically for people who
00:11:48.479 --> 00:11:49.980
aren't doing a ton of work who aren't
00:11:50.080 --> 00:11:51.760
organizing who aren't part of community
00:11:52.360 --> 00:11:54.623
that lets them feel like they've done
00:11:54.743 --> 00:11:57.364
something they liked a video they shared
00:11:57.445 --> 00:11:59.885
something to their friend group and while
00:11:59.926 --> 00:12:02.206
those things can have some meaning that
00:12:02.267 --> 00:12:06.129
isn't the actual active work of organizing
00:12:06.169 --> 00:12:09.552
let alone revolutionizing and so um again
00:12:10.072 --> 00:12:11.212
it goes both ways i think
00:12:12.485 --> 00:12:14.587
the algorithms have really ruined whatever
00:12:14.768 --> 00:12:16.408
used to be good about the internet,
00:12:18.910 --> 00:12:19.971
which we'll get into.
00:12:20.711 --> 00:12:23.254
But this idea of continuing to sell people
00:12:23.293 --> 00:12:25.936
the idea, and this is religious, right?
00:12:25.956 --> 00:12:27.136
This is religious trauma.
00:12:27.197 --> 00:12:29.577
I've worked with this for years after
00:12:29.658 --> 00:12:31.779
doing my own work, coming out of religion.
00:12:32.320 --> 00:12:35.081
This idea that you're not enough,
00:12:35.883 --> 00:12:37.964
enough is one of those concepts that's
00:12:38.004 --> 00:12:38.585
really tricky.
00:12:38.625 --> 00:12:41.106
Cause like, how do you define that?
00:12:43.025 --> 00:12:44.426
And it really messes with our brain that
00:12:44.446 --> 00:12:46.547
there is some vague concept of what enough
00:12:46.788 --> 00:12:46.988
is.
00:12:47.008 --> 00:12:47.927
We've never defined it.
00:12:47.967 --> 00:12:50.048
It doesn't have rigid parameters.
00:12:50.089 --> 00:12:52.029
And so we can never really fully meet
00:12:52.070 --> 00:12:52.230
it.
00:12:52.270 --> 00:12:54.532
It's one of those dangerous sort of
00:12:55.032 --> 00:12:57.072
thought processes that really become a
00:12:57.113 --> 00:12:58.673
hamster wheel that our brain can get stuck
00:12:58.754 --> 00:12:58.813
on.
00:13:00.654 --> 00:13:01.715
So we're never doing enough.
00:13:01.754 --> 00:13:03.755
There's continual outrage that feeds the
00:13:03.816 --> 00:13:05.716
engagement of the algorithm.
00:13:06.496 --> 00:13:07.797
And it does need to give us this
00:13:07.856 --> 00:13:08.937
idea that we're doing something.
00:13:09.417 --> 00:13:11.018
Game designers have studied this,
00:13:11.038 --> 00:13:12.538
and we know about some of the
00:13:12.557 --> 00:13:13.558
psychological concepts.
00:13:13.918 --> 00:13:15.678
The easiest metaphor I can use is in
00:13:15.698 --> 00:13:16.599
video game design.
00:13:16.938 --> 00:13:19.320
You need it to be challenging because
00:13:19.340 --> 00:13:21.360
humans get bored when they don't feel
00:13:21.421 --> 00:13:22.120
challenged with something.
00:13:22.140 --> 00:13:23.380
So you need something to be challenging
00:13:23.600 --> 00:13:24.360
and rewarding.
00:13:24.380 --> 00:13:25.682
You do need to level up.
00:13:25.741 --> 00:13:27.142
You do need to unlock things.
00:13:27.182 --> 00:13:28.062
You do need to feel like there's
00:13:28.222 --> 00:13:29.462
progression being made.
00:13:30.102 --> 00:13:32.683
And so while the outreach machine exists,
00:13:33.344 --> 00:13:34.864
you do need to convince people that liking
00:13:34.884 --> 00:13:38.245
things and subscribing and clicking and
00:13:38.264 --> 00:13:41.466
sharing is accomplishing a thing, right?
00:13:41.586 --> 00:13:42.666
And like super meta, right?
00:13:42.686 --> 00:13:43.905
Like while I'm recording this,
00:13:44.086 --> 00:13:44.865
like subscribe,
00:13:44.885 --> 00:13:46.326
do all those internet things.
00:13:46.366 --> 00:13:48.386
Like, yeah, I'm aware, right?
00:13:48.427 --> 00:13:49.628
This is not all I do.
00:13:49.748 --> 00:13:53.668
This is more than a hobby,
00:13:53.708 --> 00:13:55.369
but certainly not my day job.
00:13:58.241 --> 00:14:00.342
This is trying to combat the nonsense
00:14:00.383 --> 00:14:02.283
that's out there with learning and getting
00:14:02.302 --> 00:14:03.623
you to use your brain and think
00:14:03.682 --> 00:14:04.163
critically.
00:14:04.263 --> 00:14:04.663
Hooray.
00:14:07.464 --> 00:14:09.144
Think about sort of like the influencer
00:14:09.164 --> 00:14:09.504
culture.
00:14:09.764 --> 00:14:11.445
It's beauty products, it's fitness,
00:14:11.504 --> 00:14:13.745
it's wellness, it's productivity,
00:14:13.946 --> 00:14:15.145
religion, therapy.
00:14:16.306 --> 00:14:18.086
But I think the sort of core things
00:14:18.126 --> 00:14:20.567
that are like beauty,
00:14:20.726 --> 00:14:23.927
wellness slash fitness and productivity,
00:14:24.028 --> 00:14:24.248
like
00:14:26.504 --> 00:14:28.525
the internet's not giving you any of those
00:14:28.546 --> 00:14:28.986
things again.
00:14:29.226 --> 00:14:30.467
And I would almost say specifically,
00:14:30.508 --> 00:14:32.208
the longer you stay on your phone,
00:14:32.708 --> 00:14:36.192
the less those things exist for you in
00:14:36.251 --> 00:14:36.932
the real world.
00:14:36.991 --> 00:14:37.993
And in real time,
00:14:38.052 --> 00:14:40.615
you're consuming that as a product from
00:14:40.715 --> 00:14:42.596
other people and not doing anything.
00:14:42.676 --> 00:14:43.616
So like, again, that,
00:14:43.716 --> 00:14:45.398
that dual messaging of you are not enough,
00:14:45.457 --> 00:14:46.538
but you are doing something.
00:14:46.619 --> 00:14:47.419
So like, good for you.
00:14:47.440 --> 00:14:47.580
So,
00:14:47.879 --> 00:14:50.201
so stay right here and keep doing that
00:14:50.241 --> 00:14:52.724
while we subtly convince you that you're
00:14:52.744 --> 00:14:54.565
not enough and keep you from doing
00:14:54.605 --> 00:14:55.745
anything.
00:14:55.946 --> 00:14:56.025
Um,
00:14:57.207 --> 00:14:59.528
And so the algorithms lean towards fear
00:14:59.589 --> 00:15:00.428
and inadequacy.
00:15:00.989 --> 00:15:04.429
And that is really fun when you look
00:15:04.490 --> 00:15:05.530
at like, why?
00:15:05.971 --> 00:15:09.652
Why are those the values that are embedded
00:15:09.692 --> 00:15:10.471
in the algorithms?
00:15:10.611 --> 00:15:13.232
Now the algorithms are not pristine,
00:15:13.712 --> 00:15:14.433
flawless,
00:15:14.514 --> 00:15:17.754
mathematic equations that are
00:15:18.495 --> 00:15:20.576
distillations of the human brain
00:15:21.556 --> 00:15:23.197
They're things that were created.
00:15:23.297 --> 00:15:24.197
They're coded.
00:15:26.078 --> 00:15:28.620
The large language models that are wildly
00:15:28.701 --> 00:15:31.402
agreeable to you were written to be
00:15:31.501 --> 00:15:31.982
agreeable.
00:15:32.163 --> 00:15:32.322
One,
00:15:32.403 --> 00:15:35.085
based on some data that we get from
00:15:35.125 --> 00:15:35.565
the engagement.
00:15:35.605 --> 00:15:35.845
But again,
00:15:35.865 --> 00:15:38.846
the algorithm started somewhere before
00:15:38.886 --> 00:15:40.008
they started tracking everything,
00:15:40.048 --> 00:15:41.788
before they started keeping tabs on how
00:15:41.828 --> 00:15:43.129
long our eyes stayed on the screen,
00:15:43.190 --> 00:15:43.809
before looking away,
00:15:43.870 --> 00:15:45.751
before they were tracking all of that
00:15:45.812 --> 00:15:48.373
stuff, which they have so much data.
00:15:48.933 --> 00:15:50.674
We do not live in a private society.
00:15:52.808 --> 00:15:54.669
the algorithms were built on a value
00:15:54.710 --> 00:15:57.272
system and that value system was Silicon
00:15:57.292 --> 00:15:57.712
Valley.
00:15:58.732 --> 00:16:00.434
And I, again,
00:16:00.495 --> 00:16:02.255
the idea for this podcast sort of started
00:16:02.275 --> 00:16:05.938
because I rewatched season one and it,
00:16:05.999 --> 00:16:07.960
it is, it's still funny.
00:16:07.980 --> 00:16:10.162
I would say it's aged really poorly.
00:16:10.322 --> 00:16:11.383
One, just like how,
00:16:13.143 --> 00:16:15.384
vitriolic and again this is this is my
00:16:15.403 --> 00:16:18.245
lived experience we are towards tech um i
00:16:18.284 --> 00:16:19.346
certainly think that's true of my
00:16:19.405 --> 00:16:22.687
generation of millennials by and large um
00:16:22.787 --> 00:16:25.227
and young people again the the recoil
00:16:25.288 --> 00:16:27.928
against ai has been very strong and
00:16:27.989 --> 00:16:31.530
pronounced in a way where integration of
00:16:31.630 --> 00:16:35.091
the iphone and smartphones and again the
00:16:35.131 --> 00:16:36.812
erosion of our general privacy and human
00:16:36.852 --> 00:16:39.734
rights has been fairly effective for tech
00:16:40.355 --> 00:16:40.534
um
00:16:41.613 --> 00:16:44.214
what happens in a lot of tech is
00:16:44.293 --> 00:16:49.315
those values were kind of vapid um the
00:16:49.495 --> 00:16:55.136
the idea of sort of like growth uh
00:16:55.177 --> 00:16:57.057
which again like growth in a capitalistic
00:16:57.096 --> 00:17:00.638
sense is just cancer it's unending
00:17:00.738 --> 00:17:05.319
replication under finite circumstances
00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:05.619
like
00:17:07.221 --> 00:17:09.383
our model for our economic system is based
00:17:09.423 --> 00:17:11.884
on cancer growth, which again is bad,
00:17:12.163 --> 00:17:13.585
kills things, we know this.
00:17:15.345 --> 00:17:17.967
Growth, optimization, competition,
00:17:20.048 --> 00:17:23.568
conquering, scaling things and disruption.
00:17:23.608 --> 00:17:25.230
And disruption is the easy one to say
00:17:25.269 --> 00:17:27.951
like that never has happened with tech.
00:17:29.278 --> 00:17:30.839
That's always that's like this big
00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:31.280
buzzword.
00:17:31.480 --> 00:17:33.622
And so watching season one of Silicon
00:17:33.642 --> 00:17:36.903
Valley is like tech disruptors is sort of
00:17:36.923 --> 00:17:38.285
where the finale takes place.
00:17:38.345 --> 00:17:41.346
And whoever wins the prize gets like a
00:17:41.386 --> 00:17:41.907
big thing.
00:17:42.228 --> 00:17:42.748
Now, again,
00:17:42.929 --> 00:17:44.950
has tech in the way become ubiquitous?
00:17:45.009 --> 00:17:47.070
Like, yes, I remember having a flip phone.
00:17:47.171 --> 00:17:49.173
I remember having minutes.
00:17:49.292 --> 00:17:51.894
I remember only calling my long distance
00:17:51.934 --> 00:17:53.395
girlfriend, who's now my wife.
00:17:54.336 --> 00:17:55.916
in case you were going to judge me
00:17:55.957 --> 00:17:57.798
for calling my long distance girlfriend,
00:17:57.858 --> 00:17:58.979
that panned out for me.
00:17:59.880 --> 00:18:02.201
But having to wait until we had minutes,
00:18:02.241 --> 00:18:03.803
having to wait and think about like she's
00:18:03.823 --> 00:18:04.762
in a different time zone,
00:18:05.864 --> 00:18:07.305
having to do the math in my head
00:18:07.345 --> 00:18:09.105
for like who could call who when that
00:18:09.205 --> 00:18:11.007
texting had specific limitations.
00:18:11.428 --> 00:18:11.708
And again,
00:18:12.067 --> 00:18:14.390
that tech has grown to a way where
00:18:14.430 --> 00:18:16.711
some of those things work much better and
00:18:16.770 --> 00:18:17.951
are so much more, again,
00:18:17.991 --> 00:18:20.133
like ubiquitous in our lives speaks a lot
00:18:20.173 --> 00:18:21.574
to how far tech has come.
00:18:22.154 --> 00:18:23.576
I'm not dismissing that.
00:18:23.996 --> 00:18:25.415
But when you look at the disruptors,
00:18:26.017 --> 00:18:26.696
it's AI.
00:18:26.757 --> 00:18:28.576
Well, that has fallen flat on its face.
00:18:28.596 --> 00:18:29.857
It hasn't really disrupted much of
00:18:29.978 --> 00:18:33.439
anything other than our access to clean
00:18:33.479 --> 00:18:34.338
drinking water.
00:18:35.598 --> 00:18:38.200
Uber disrupted public transportation,
00:18:38.380 --> 00:18:39.740
except like not really.
00:18:41.060 --> 00:18:44.142
Lyft exists and taxis are still a thing.
00:18:45.382 --> 00:18:48.563
So it sort of took taxis and modernized
00:18:48.623 --> 00:18:48.923
them.
00:18:50.395 --> 00:18:52.176
So you can order them from an app
00:18:52.277 --> 00:18:53.939
on your phone instead of having to call
00:18:53.999 --> 00:18:54.538
a number,
00:18:54.999 --> 00:18:56.700
but otherwise it's pretty much just still
00:18:56.720 --> 00:18:59.162
a taxi and that you can pay in
00:18:59.201 --> 00:19:00.603
the app and all those things sort of
00:19:00.643 --> 00:19:02.344
only exists because smartphones exist,
00:19:02.443 --> 00:19:03.045
not because
00:19:04.833 --> 00:19:06.615
These ride shares disrupted things.
00:19:06.694 --> 00:19:08.217
Most people, at least in America,
00:19:08.237 --> 00:19:09.718
still also drive their own cars.
00:19:09.778 --> 00:19:12.181
We're huge polluters because we have
00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:13.803
cities that aren't walkable.
00:19:14.623 --> 00:19:16.125
Uber, Lyft, whatever,
00:19:16.265 --> 00:19:17.926
did not disrupt that.
00:19:18.027 --> 00:19:20.088
Waymo is not disrupting that.
00:19:20.148 --> 00:19:22.731
Self-driving cars are not disrupting that.
00:19:22.771 --> 00:19:23.752
There's no disruption.
00:19:24.354 --> 00:19:25.815
It's, hey, this...
00:19:26.556 --> 00:19:28.577
thing this system is making a lot of
00:19:28.617 --> 00:19:30.499
money we're going to come in and try
00:19:30.538 --> 00:19:32.200
and take over a share of that and
00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:34.182
then again where the values of silicon
00:19:34.221 --> 00:19:35.583
valley come in is like growth and
00:19:35.623 --> 00:19:38.404
optimization we're gonna increase the
00:19:38.424 --> 00:19:40.006
value of this thing and then we're gonna
00:19:40.125 --> 00:19:42.107
cut it and sell it
00:19:42.807 --> 00:19:44.891
And again, that's the cancer of this.
00:19:45.171 --> 00:19:47.253
That's where these things keep dying.
00:19:47.273 --> 00:19:49.257
We keep having things that are worse and
00:19:49.297 --> 00:19:51.359
worse, the of the internet.
00:19:52.201 --> 00:19:54.644
All of these sort of tech disruptor spaces
00:19:54.683 --> 00:19:56.547
haven't really done anything.
00:19:58.330 --> 00:20:01.792
blue origin space x haven't replaced nasa
00:20:01.873 --> 00:20:03.513
and are getting lapped by now other
00:20:03.554 --> 00:20:07.615
countries um federal subsidized their
00:20:07.736 --> 00:20:10.297
state level engineering things like the
00:20:10.356 --> 00:20:12.719
idea that we could be exploring space and
00:20:12.739 --> 00:20:14.298
exploring the ocean and working together
00:20:14.338 --> 00:20:16.279
as a planet instead of like in competition
00:20:17.583 --> 00:20:18.865
Doesn't happen because, again,
00:20:18.904 --> 00:20:21.227
the competition is one of the values that
00:20:21.287 --> 00:20:23.229
big tech put into the algorithms from the
00:20:23.249 --> 00:20:23.609
get go.
00:20:24.029 --> 00:20:25.352
And if you look at like who these
00:20:25.372 --> 00:20:27.173
people are now, again, to be clear,
00:20:27.433 --> 00:20:28.674
these people did not create the
00:20:28.714 --> 00:20:29.256
algorithms.
00:20:29.296 --> 00:20:30.758
They're not clever enough to do that.
00:20:30.778 --> 00:20:31.778
They're not smart enough to do this.
00:20:31.798 --> 00:20:33.259
These are the names that are there.
00:20:33.780 --> 00:20:35.201
But the names that are there are the
00:20:35.241 --> 00:20:36.123
people who are.
00:20:37.204 --> 00:20:38.926
Definitely instilling some of the values.
00:20:39.027 --> 00:20:41.048
Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg,
00:20:41.368 --> 00:20:43.530
Mark Andreessen, Peter Thiel.
00:20:44.372 --> 00:20:47.654
These are our deeply uncool dorks and
00:20:47.714 --> 00:20:52.078
losers who are incredibly insecure and
00:20:52.358 --> 00:20:53.640
have daddy issues.
00:20:54.381 --> 00:20:56.363
And so again, when we think about like,
00:20:58.019 --> 00:21:00.800
the algorithm feeding on inadequacy and
00:21:00.881 --> 00:21:02.201
fear, like, yeah,
00:21:02.221 --> 00:21:03.402
those are some of the values that are
00:21:03.461 --> 00:21:05.281
put into the system by the system's
00:21:05.342 --> 00:21:05.761
creators.
00:21:05.981 --> 00:21:07.482
Again, not those people.
00:21:09.323 --> 00:21:12.564
But those are sort of like the caricatures
00:21:12.723 --> 00:21:15.605
and sort of like the schemas,
00:21:15.664 --> 00:21:17.944
the idea of like, why?
00:21:18.045 --> 00:21:20.125
Well, because like insecure men, right?
00:21:20.741 --> 00:21:21.382
We're doing this.
00:21:22.182 --> 00:21:24.423
And do I think that some of this
00:21:24.523 --> 00:21:26.525
was really cool,
00:21:26.904 --> 00:21:29.205
really smart people who came up with a
00:21:29.226 --> 00:21:30.547
great idea to make the world a better
00:21:30.567 --> 00:21:30.767
place?
00:21:30.826 --> 00:21:31.446
Yes, absolutely.
00:21:31.467 --> 00:21:33.807
I'm not saying like everybody in tech is
00:21:33.847 --> 00:21:37.089
bad and all coders are men and all
00:21:37.150 --> 00:21:38.190
men are insecure.
00:21:38.230 --> 00:21:38.609
Therefore,
00:21:38.690 --> 00:21:41.872
like I'm overgeneralizing in my language.
00:21:42.011 --> 00:21:43.492
I understand there's nuance here.
00:21:44.490 --> 00:21:47.573
But to draw the parallel to the point
00:21:47.613 --> 00:21:49.933
I'm making is that like the algorithm has
00:21:49.953 --> 00:21:50.894
these values in place.
00:21:50.934 --> 00:21:53.797
Think about whose values those things are.
00:21:54.356 --> 00:21:54.596
And again,
00:21:54.616 --> 00:21:58.358
somebody like Teal is probably closer to
00:21:58.398 --> 00:21:58.940
the truth.
00:21:59.579 --> 00:22:02.303
zuckerberg for sure um versus like musk
00:22:02.323 --> 00:22:04.105
and bezos who sort of came in as
00:22:04.365 --> 00:22:06.567
capitalists and bought up things that were
00:22:06.607 --> 00:22:07.788
already doing this more than they had
00:22:07.828 --> 00:22:10.211
their hands in the code at any useful
00:22:10.271 --> 00:22:11.673
point of building some of the algorithm
00:22:12.094 --> 00:22:16.018
again zuckerberg um arguably like again an
00:22:16.057 --> 00:22:17.480
entire movie's been made about it and i
00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:19.521
didn't watch it because who the fuck cares
00:22:20.403 --> 00:22:20.644
um
00:22:21.203 --> 00:22:22.644
But whether or not he made the code
00:22:22.664 --> 00:22:24.105
or stole the code or ripped off his
00:22:24.145 --> 00:22:27.288
roommate or like many male inventors over
00:22:27.367 --> 00:22:28.689
time have just ripped off a female
00:22:28.709 --> 00:22:29.390
somewhere in their life.
00:22:30.049 --> 00:22:32.192
I don't know how much he made himself
00:22:32.412 --> 00:22:34.432
or but like he was on the ground
00:22:34.574 --> 00:22:35.114
floor.
00:22:36.535 --> 00:22:36.775
Again,
00:22:36.815 --> 00:22:39.457
I don't think Teal was necessarily doing a
00:22:39.537 --> 00:22:40.917
ton of coding.
00:22:40.998 --> 00:22:42.318
He and Musk with PayPal.
00:22:42.338 --> 00:22:43.279
Yeah.
00:22:44.061 --> 00:22:45.962
Musk is like in nerd circles,
00:22:46.042 --> 00:22:47.502
pretty well established to be bad,
00:22:47.643 --> 00:22:49.263
very specifically bad at coding.
00:22:49.304 --> 00:22:51.644
Like he's not actually a smart person.
00:22:52.105 --> 00:22:54.286
He could have like really lived on a
00:22:54.326 --> 00:22:54.766
mansion,
00:22:54.925 --> 00:22:56.886
lived in a mansion somewhere and coasted
00:22:56.987 --> 00:22:59.166
on like his Tony Stark level reputation.
00:22:59.907 --> 00:23:01.488
If I don't know,
00:23:01.548 --> 00:23:03.348
his daughter hadn't come out as trans
00:23:05.204 --> 00:23:07.386
seemed to have broke his mind a little
00:23:07.406 --> 00:23:07.567
bit.
00:23:07.626 --> 00:23:08.788
And like TL very,
00:23:09.689 --> 00:23:11.269
got super nervous after nine, eleven.
00:23:11.990 --> 00:23:12.250
Again,
00:23:12.310 --> 00:23:14.492
sort of the disconnect between like
00:23:14.532 --> 00:23:15.333
Silicon Valley,
00:23:16.875 --> 00:23:19.436
just like thinking of like people as NPCs
00:23:19.696 --> 00:23:21.898
and sort of being above and away from
00:23:21.959 --> 00:23:22.419
everything.
00:23:22.479 --> 00:23:24.119
Like billionaires, rich like,
00:23:24.901 --> 00:23:27.364
douchebag idiots who thought of themselves
00:23:27.403 --> 00:23:29.486
as disruptors really struggled with nine
00:23:29.506 --> 00:23:31.328
eleven because it was a situation where
00:23:31.348 --> 00:23:34.152
like a bunch of them did business and
00:23:34.192 --> 00:23:36.273
were regularly at the world trade center
00:23:36.795 --> 00:23:38.217
and so the idea that like they could
00:23:38.257 --> 00:23:39.698
have died and something like that
00:23:40.298 --> 00:23:43.119
was really disruptive for them and their
00:23:43.140 --> 00:23:45.661
psyches so again that fear that inadequacy
00:23:45.681 --> 00:23:47.821
that insecurity is there and then covid
00:23:47.842 --> 00:23:49.083
made that a lot worse right like there
00:23:49.222 --> 00:23:52.424
there was no ability to prevent there was
00:23:52.484 --> 00:23:54.065
again a lot of these people got vaccines
00:23:54.105 --> 00:23:55.506
before like doctors and nurses and
00:23:55.526 --> 00:23:57.646
teachers got vaccines so again
00:23:57.926 --> 00:24:02.489
billionaires um another thing that really
00:24:02.548 --> 00:24:04.049
scared them was like their wealth
00:24:04.760 --> 00:24:07.244
didn't prevent them from still needing
00:24:07.285 --> 00:24:07.705
people,
00:24:07.766 --> 00:24:09.087
still need to interact with people and
00:24:09.127 --> 00:24:11.791
like an airborne virus could really cost
00:24:11.811 --> 00:24:12.453
them their lives.
00:24:12.493 --> 00:24:13.214
That really scared them.
00:24:13.255 --> 00:24:13.695
And so again,
00:24:13.756 --> 00:24:16.078
these like dudes with daddy issues,
00:24:16.098 --> 00:24:17.161
these insecure men,
00:24:19.707 --> 00:24:21.167
though that value system,
00:24:21.307 --> 00:24:22.669
not just the insecurity,
00:24:22.729 --> 00:24:24.490
but also like the competition,
00:24:24.570 --> 00:24:25.771
the optimization,
00:24:26.251 --> 00:24:28.773
some of those things that these people are
00:24:28.834 --> 00:24:30.394
sick with those ideas because they grew up
00:24:30.414 --> 00:24:32.016
in America, they grew up under capitalism.
00:24:33.136 --> 00:24:34.377
They didn't come up with it.
00:24:35.499 --> 00:24:36.960
I hate to say they're victims as much
00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:37.560
as anyone else.
00:24:38.557 --> 00:24:41.480
Cause they're definitely abusers such as
00:24:41.601 --> 00:24:43.182
the unfortunate nuance of the world.
00:24:43.782 --> 00:24:45.443
But some of this stuff again was the
00:24:45.463 --> 00:24:46.846
water they were swimming into.
00:24:46.905 --> 00:24:49.087
I'm not saying they like charted it out
00:24:49.167 --> 00:24:50.368
as evil geniuses.
00:24:50.469 --> 00:24:53.491
I'm saying it's there cause it's their
00:24:53.531 --> 00:24:56.954
values and their values are unhelpful and
00:24:56.994 --> 00:24:57.474
unproductive.
00:24:57.494 --> 00:25:00.077
And again, look at any of their lives,
00:25:00.137 --> 00:25:00.337
right?
00:25:02.733 --> 00:25:05.555
musk has what thirteen kids by eleven
00:25:05.615 --> 00:25:08.435
women um nobody likes him he's super
00:25:08.536 --> 00:25:11.355
lonely his texts and dms are really sad
00:25:11.395 --> 00:25:13.037
he ruined his dick with like several
00:25:13.076 --> 00:25:14.737
surgeries so he's into like artificial
00:25:14.757 --> 00:25:17.657
insemination as like a kink like he's not
00:25:17.698 --> 00:25:20.419
like a well person he's abusing ketamine
00:25:20.459 --> 00:25:21.739
because like dealing with reality is
00:25:21.778 --> 00:25:24.700
really hard for him um bezos is on
00:25:24.740 --> 00:25:26.580
what wife number three or four
00:25:29.141 --> 00:25:30.721
continually shown up by his ex-wife,
00:25:30.741 --> 00:25:32.123
who's been one of the most generous
00:25:32.262 --> 00:25:34.765
donators to charity in all of human
00:25:34.845 --> 00:25:37.846
existence and has donated more than Bill
00:25:37.866 --> 00:25:40.867
Gates, Zuckerberg, and Musk,
00:25:41.449 --> 00:25:42.528
Bezos combined.
00:25:42.569 --> 00:25:43.970
Like, truly embarrassed.
00:25:44.029 --> 00:25:44.211
Like,
00:25:44.611 --> 00:25:47.031
the idea that I can say something that,
00:25:47.071 --> 00:25:50.034
like, dudes would be like, oh,
00:25:50.074 --> 00:25:53.957
this guy hates men and insecure men.
00:25:54.477 --> 00:25:55.557
Like, yeah, right.
00:25:55.617 --> 00:25:57.559
Because like Mackenzie Scott has donated
00:25:57.599 --> 00:25:59.181
so much more money than all of the
00:25:59.240 --> 00:26:02.104
other like billionaires who are disruptors
00:26:02.163 --> 00:26:04.246
and job creators like that.
00:26:04.286 --> 00:26:05.846
They're just sycophants and they ruin
00:26:05.866 --> 00:26:06.126
things.
00:26:08.108 --> 00:26:09.971
So again, these these
00:26:11.104 --> 00:26:12.265
It's not men are bad,
00:26:12.325 --> 00:26:14.306
it's these specific men are bad.
00:26:14.385 --> 00:26:16.007
And these specific men have created a
00:26:16.047 --> 00:26:18.468
world that fulfills their idea of
00:26:18.508 --> 00:26:20.328
masculinity because their values are
00:26:20.348 --> 00:26:21.750
embedded in the algorithm network.
00:26:22.290 --> 00:26:23.872
Being forced, right?
00:26:23.912 --> 00:26:24.991
That we didn't opt into,
00:26:25.172 --> 00:26:27.453
we didn't consent to.
00:26:27.493 --> 00:26:29.295
Not a surprise for a number of these
00:26:29.335 --> 00:26:30.115
men.
00:26:31.836 --> 00:26:33.396
Not a surprise for a number of these
00:26:33.457 --> 00:26:33.616
rich,
00:26:33.656 --> 00:26:35.878
powerful men not understanding consent.
00:26:36.721 --> 00:26:38.084
that these are things that we were not
00:26:38.925 --> 00:26:39.567
opting into,
00:26:39.586 --> 00:26:41.991
that we were not able to consent to
00:26:42.152 --> 00:26:44.477
use or not.
00:26:44.497 --> 00:26:45.219
Shocking.
00:26:49.012 --> 00:26:49.813
So again, I mean,
00:26:49.913 --> 00:26:54.294
the status and the ideas of competition
00:26:54.433 --> 00:26:56.855
and some of the capitalistic ideas and a
00:26:56.875 --> 00:26:58.996
lot of the insecurities also came through.
00:26:59.056 --> 00:26:59.276
Again,
00:26:59.296 --> 00:27:00.855
we're being fed these things and it is
00:27:00.895 --> 00:27:01.576
affecting us.
00:27:02.136 --> 00:27:03.817
I don't think there's a way around that.
00:27:04.116 --> 00:27:06.557
And we do have to look back.
00:27:08.258 --> 00:27:09.538
If this is like a telescope,
00:27:09.558 --> 00:27:11.338
we're looking through the other end of the
00:27:11.378 --> 00:27:13.539
telescope and seeing what it also tells us
00:27:13.559 --> 00:27:14.720
about the people who created it,
00:27:14.779 --> 00:27:17.101
which is like deeply insecure and fearful
00:27:17.141 --> 00:27:17.980
people as well.
00:27:20.101 --> 00:27:21.282
um but what happens then with the
00:27:21.363 --> 00:27:22.804
algorithm the algorithm that is embedded
00:27:22.824 --> 00:27:24.365
with these values the algorithm that was
00:27:24.846 --> 00:27:28.430
based and shaped by these values is it
00:27:28.490 --> 00:27:31.173
trains our systems one of the things about
00:27:31.753 --> 00:27:34.155
our brains is that repetition matters
00:27:34.316 --> 00:27:36.618
pavlov stock right think about bell
00:27:36.798 --> 00:27:38.941
ringing uh and then we get
00:27:39.682 --> 00:27:41.583
the meat powder and then when the bell
00:27:41.643 --> 00:27:43.663
rings we start salivating even without
00:27:43.765 --> 00:27:46.526
getting any meat powder right that call
00:27:46.546 --> 00:27:48.507
and response that reward system is very
00:27:48.547 --> 00:27:51.888
powerful in us um paul heyman who's who's
00:27:51.909 --> 00:27:54.431
a very famous figure in pro wrestling
00:27:54.951 --> 00:27:57.093
talks about name recognition and if you
00:27:57.792 --> 00:28:00.615
run a promo on friday that says uh
00:28:01.490 --> 00:28:03.772
know he uses some made-up name and like
00:28:03.813 --> 00:28:05.815
phil gluckman's the greatest wrestler
00:28:05.875 --> 00:28:07.696
nobody's ever heard of before wait till
00:28:07.717 --> 00:28:09.637
you see gluckman come out and then you
00:28:09.699 --> 00:28:11.480
run another promo next week and you say
00:28:11.859 --> 00:28:14.383
phil gluckman is debuting next week this
00:28:14.403 --> 00:28:17.105
is the most unheralded naturally gifted
00:28:17.144 --> 00:28:18.666
wrestler i've ever seen that nobody's ever
00:28:18.686 --> 00:28:20.448
heard of make sure you check out gluckman
00:28:20.868 --> 00:28:22.990
and then gluckman finally premieres what's
00:28:23.050 --> 00:28:25.112
understood in pro wrestling is that that
00:28:25.212 --> 00:28:27.314
segment on tv will do better
00:28:27.974 --> 00:28:29.954
because you've done the repetition thing
00:28:30.095 --> 00:28:31.316
over and over and over again,
00:28:31.375 --> 00:28:34.996
more so than just having Gluckman be on
00:28:35.016 --> 00:28:35.576
TV.
00:28:35.676 --> 00:28:37.497
And even if he's really actually good at
00:28:37.517 --> 00:28:38.217
what he does,
00:28:38.257 --> 00:28:41.137
that won't matter without that repetition
00:28:41.258 --> 00:28:41.978
beforehand.
00:28:42.077 --> 00:28:42.278
Right.
00:28:43.097 --> 00:28:45.919
It's why I think the modern day right
00:28:45.939 --> 00:28:48.598
wing just says things that aren't true,
00:28:48.659 --> 00:28:49.778
that are provably false,
00:28:49.818 --> 00:28:53.240
very easily falsifiable because they're
00:28:53.279 --> 00:28:54.819
going for repetition.
00:28:55.580 --> 00:28:56.941
And some of this stuff
00:28:58.935 --> 00:29:00.457
They used to get away with easier because
00:29:00.477 --> 00:29:02.018
it couldn't be fact checked in real time.
00:29:02.077 --> 00:29:02.979
Now it can be.
00:29:03.358 --> 00:29:04.759
And they're sort of learning that like for
00:29:04.799 --> 00:29:06.201
a subset of the population,
00:29:06.761 --> 00:29:08.202
they can still just get away with it
00:29:08.363 --> 00:29:09.983
purely on repetition because people won't
00:29:10.023 --> 00:29:10.444
check.
00:29:12.665 --> 00:29:14.708
Which is maddening for somebody like me
00:29:14.788 --> 00:29:17.250
who like checks lots of things.
00:29:17.670 --> 00:29:19.431
And before I put things out and before
00:29:19.451 --> 00:29:20.751
I put my name on things like double
00:29:20.811 --> 00:29:21.813
and triple check sometimes.
00:29:22.314 --> 00:29:23.734
Not this, this is podcasting,
00:29:24.095 --> 00:29:26.676
not a real scientific inquiry.
00:29:28.063 --> 00:29:29.303
The medium is accessible.
00:29:29.462 --> 00:29:32.044
Again, like a cog in the wheel.
00:29:32.104 --> 00:29:32.884
I'm not unaware.
00:29:32.983 --> 00:29:34.704
The meta analysis of like everything I'm
00:29:34.744 --> 00:29:35.964
saying can also be applied to this
00:29:36.005 --> 00:29:36.484
podcast.
00:29:36.525 --> 00:29:37.765
Like, yeah, for sure.
00:29:38.185 --> 00:29:39.766
If I was going to write a paper
00:29:39.786 --> 00:29:40.826
that was going to peer review,
00:29:41.125 --> 00:29:42.787
I would do a lot different job than
00:29:42.886 --> 00:29:44.467
I am putting it out.
00:29:44.666 --> 00:29:46.548
I do maintain that what I put out
00:29:46.587 --> 00:29:49.307
on a weekly basis is way more beneficial
00:29:49.347 --> 00:29:51.528
than something that Rogan or Peterson or
00:29:51.588 --> 00:29:51.989
whoever wrote.
00:29:52.930 --> 00:29:54.453
Ben Shapiro is doing.
00:29:55.395 --> 00:29:57.601
But again, part of it is like, yeah,
00:29:58.162 --> 00:30:00.346
the repetition isn't necessarily evil.
00:30:01.436 --> 00:30:03.057
The idea that our brains are wired for
00:30:03.077 --> 00:30:03.318
that,
00:30:03.398 --> 00:30:06.161
and this is a known phenomenon is not
00:30:07.162 --> 00:30:08.542
bad or wrong.
00:30:08.663 --> 00:30:10.003
A lot of what I got into with
00:30:10.023 --> 00:30:11.885
podcasting with was don't follow your
00:30:11.945 --> 00:30:12.405
numbers,
00:30:12.425 --> 00:30:14.587
make sure you're putting up consistent
00:30:14.627 --> 00:30:15.308
content.
00:30:15.769 --> 00:30:17.971
And over time that separates itself.
00:30:18.090 --> 00:30:19.271
And then whether you have any sort of
00:30:19.352 --> 00:30:22.454
skill or there's an audience for it will
00:30:22.494 --> 00:30:22.894
happen.
00:30:22.914 --> 00:30:24.977
But like most podcasts don't even hit ten
00:30:25.017 --> 00:30:25.597
episodes.
00:30:26.238 --> 00:30:27.779
because again it's one of those things
00:30:27.819 --> 00:30:29.442
where like to pop a number is really
00:30:29.481 --> 00:30:31.663
difficult unless you already are famous
00:30:32.325 --> 00:30:35.749
which again like sucks that any level of
00:30:35.788 --> 00:30:37.791
fame is like we're gonna have every single
00:30:37.832 --> 00:30:39.472
person who's ever been on a sitcom has
00:30:39.492 --> 00:30:43.778
their own podcast and like we're all we're
00:30:43.798 --> 00:30:45.760
all trapped by the machine um
00:30:47.173 --> 00:30:48.854
So it's not good.
00:30:50.134 --> 00:30:51.455
But the repetition matters and the
00:30:51.496 --> 00:30:53.938
repetition then shapes perception.
00:30:54.338 --> 00:30:55.920
I would argue it doesn't create
00:30:57.585 --> 00:30:59.645
That, I think the perception exists.
00:30:59.665 --> 00:31:01.247
I don't know.
00:31:01.386 --> 00:31:02.106
It's messy, right?
00:31:02.126 --> 00:31:02.886
Like there's nuance there.
00:31:02.906 --> 00:31:03.607
There's a back and forth.
00:31:03.627 --> 00:31:04.928
There's a feedback loop there,
00:31:05.568 --> 00:31:06.909
but certainly shapes perception.
00:31:06.949 --> 00:31:08.329
And so your brain is looking for certain
00:31:08.369 --> 00:31:08.849
patterns.
00:31:09.730 --> 00:31:10.830
The more you see them repeated,
00:31:10.871 --> 00:31:12.491
the more your brain recognizes them.
00:31:12.672 --> 00:31:15.093
And so then it's easy to, again,
00:31:15.192 --> 00:31:17.374
sort of demonize whatever marginalized
00:31:17.433 --> 00:31:18.755
group you're going to say is taking their
00:31:18.795 --> 00:31:20.255
money when it's obviously like the
00:31:20.295 --> 00:31:21.476
billionaires have always been taking the
00:31:21.496 --> 00:31:21.596
money.
00:31:22.840 --> 00:31:24.761
Um, so you,
00:31:25.001 --> 00:31:28.364
you are having a feedback loop in your
00:31:28.384 --> 00:31:30.204
brain and the algorithm is tracking that
00:31:30.224 --> 00:31:32.025
feedback loop and then feeding it back to
00:31:32.045 --> 00:31:32.185
you.
00:31:33.306 --> 00:31:33.526
Right.
00:31:33.945 --> 00:31:34.467
And so like,
00:31:34.507 --> 00:31:35.767
if you think of our feed instead of
00:31:35.826 --> 00:31:37.667
as like updates in real time,
00:31:37.688 --> 00:31:40.189
but it's like rehearsing for engagement,
00:31:41.029 --> 00:31:41.190
um,
00:31:41.329 --> 00:31:43.050
algorithm is mirroring back what your
00:31:43.090 --> 00:31:43.530
brain is,
00:31:43.790 --> 00:31:45.432
is trying to practice with repetition.
00:31:45.796 --> 00:31:47.576
And again, it's not intentional.
00:31:47.616 --> 00:31:49.117
It's not consensual.
00:31:49.238 --> 00:31:51.519
It's one of those things where when I
00:31:51.578 --> 00:31:52.420
say practice,
00:31:52.500 --> 00:31:54.641
I mean like I do mean rehearse.
00:31:54.661 --> 00:31:57.162
I mean, repetitive behavior,
00:31:57.241 --> 00:31:58.863
not necessarily like intentional thing
00:31:58.883 --> 00:31:59.643
that you're trying to do.
00:32:00.223 --> 00:32:01.423
Language is hard.
00:32:01.944 --> 00:32:04.445
Just did an episode last week about about
00:32:04.506 --> 00:32:04.705
that.
00:32:06.960 --> 00:32:08.340
And again, I mean,
00:32:08.421 --> 00:32:09.603
as a religious trauma therapist,
00:32:09.623 --> 00:32:11.144
this is really apparent when you look at
00:32:11.163 --> 00:32:12.705
something like repetition shapes
00:32:12.746 --> 00:32:13.306
perception.
00:32:14.386 --> 00:32:17.109
The way that most church liturgies exist,
00:32:17.130 --> 00:32:19.873
the worship service, the prayers,
00:32:19.913 --> 00:32:20.512
the chants,
00:32:20.553 --> 00:32:23.155
the songs that are just prayers and chants
00:32:23.195 --> 00:32:25.917
to music, that repetition really matters.
00:32:26.459 --> 00:32:27.920
That helps people, again,
00:32:27.940 --> 00:32:29.602
recognize patterns more easily.
00:32:29.622 --> 00:32:31.223
That makes them believe more.
00:32:31.804 --> 00:32:33.384
or hold that the pattern matters.
00:32:33.424 --> 00:32:33.664
Again,
00:32:33.704 --> 00:32:35.445
Phil Gluckman's debuting next week
00:32:35.486 --> 00:32:36.646
suddenly has meaning,
00:32:37.906 --> 00:32:39.788
even though it's totally made up, right?
00:32:40.368 --> 00:32:41.509
Religion's totally made up,
00:32:41.528 --> 00:32:42.990
but suddenly has meaning because of how
00:32:43.049 --> 00:32:44.830
it's repeated and where it's repeated.
00:32:46.511 --> 00:32:47.992
The technology is different.
00:32:48.012 --> 00:32:49.292
The psychology isn't.
00:32:49.353 --> 00:32:52.174
The methods of control are presented to
00:32:52.194 --> 00:32:54.215
people with some degree of certainty to
00:32:54.256 --> 00:32:55.356
complex questions,
00:32:56.416 --> 00:32:59.038
some degree of identity to a big...
00:32:59.699 --> 00:33:03.201
formless void of a world um clarifying
00:33:03.241 --> 00:33:04.663
in-group out-group dynamics who are your
00:33:04.742 --> 00:33:06.523
enemies and who are your friends giving
00:33:06.544 --> 00:33:08.045
you that sense of belonging you're here
00:33:08.065 --> 00:33:09.965
you're one of the good ones you're with
00:33:10.145 --> 00:33:12.428
us you're on the in-group and then the
00:33:12.468 --> 00:33:14.429
moral panics that exist for that out-group
00:33:14.469 --> 00:33:15.990
again like that's what organized religion
00:33:16.010 --> 00:33:17.270
has been doing that's what politics has
00:33:17.290 --> 00:33:18.432
been doing less successfully than
00:33:18.491 --> 00:33:20.354
organized religion although that does seem
00:33:20.374 --> 00:33:22.335
to be shifting a touch um
00:33:23.632 --> 00:33:24.173
And so again,
00:33:24.492 --> 00:33:26.755
the algorithm is really in touch with the
00:33:26.795 --> 00:33:27.836
narratives that are out there.
00:33:27.955 --> 00:33:30.778
And then it's just tracking you to feed
00:33:30.798 --> 00:33:32.601
you back which narratives you're already
00:33:32.800 --> 00:33:34.982
sort of believing, you're curious about,
00:33:35.022 --> 00:33:35.743
you're inquisitive about,
00:33:35.844 --> 00:33:37.285
or are already totally locked in.
00:33:37.325 --> 00:33:38.306
It's going to feed you more,
00:33:38.787 --> 00:33:39.227
which is again,
00:33:39.267 --> 00:33:40.468
how I think the internet has become a
00:33:40.508 --> 00:33:41.489
very siloed thing.
00:33:41.849 --> 00:33:43.310
And how like talking to other people about
00:33:43.351 --> 00:33:44.412
what's in their feed or what's in their
00:33:44.451 --> 00:33:46.173
algorithm is like really weird.
00:33:49.096 --> 00:33:51.538
like for some people i'm very jealous i
00:33:51.577 --> 00:33:54.220
mean like and and depending on how
00:33:54.279 --> 00:33:56.402
neurodivergent you may or may not be like
00:33:56.442 --> 00:33:57.643
your algorithm might look different my
00:33:57.663 --> 00:33:59.064
youtube algorithm is a lot different than
00:33:59.084 --> 00:34:03.307
my instagram algorithm um they both get
00:34:03.406 --> 00:34:06.329
like thrown off somewhat easily my youtube
00:34:06.410 --> 00:34:08.271
algorithm used to be pristine and then my
00:34:08.311 --> 00:34:10.672
children got a hold of it um but
00:34:10.713 --> 00:34:12.353
it's one of those things where again like
00:34:13.695 --> 00:34:15.398
i use different mediums for different
00:34:15.478 --> 00:34:17.780
things and i'm very aware of that and
00:34:17.800 --> 00:34:20.083
then it's interesting how the algorithm
00:34:20.143 --> 00:34:22.126
learns that and again feeds that back to
00:34:22.146 --> 00:34:24.829
you and so youtube is for board games
00:34:24.909 --> 00:34:27.793
and sports in a way where like instagram
00:34:27.833 --> 00:34:31.157
is for dogs and lizards and disc golf
00:34:32.219 --> 00:34:32.380
um
00:34:34.335 --> 00:34:34.655
And again,
00:34:35.275 --> 00:34:36.297
I don't think that's intentional.
00:34:36.376 --> 00:34:38.338
I don't think that's coded into those
00:34:38.398 --> 00:34:38.940
algorithms.
00:34:38.960 --> 00:34:40.541
That's me using those things differently.
00:34:40.981 --> 00:34:41.262
And again,
00:34:41.282 --> 00:34:42.782
these algorithms are reflections of what
00:34:42.804 --> 00:34:43.523
we're already doing.
00:34:43.804 --> 00:34:46.606
And so those things show up that way.
00:34:46.786 --> 00:34:48.309
My favorite is when my algorithm gets
00:34:48.349 --> 00:34:50.510
confused about who I am and it can't
00:34:50.530 --> 00:34:52.974
tell that I'm like a cis white dude.
00:34:53.014 --> 00:34:54.856
So I start getting things in other
00:34:54.916 --> 00:34:55.516
languages.
00:34:55.576 --> 00:34:56.197
Then I'm like, ha ha,
00:34:56.436 --> 00:34:57.597
I fooled the algorithm.
00:34:59.139 --> 00:35:00.820
And I don't know that that's a normal
00:35:00.880 --> 00:35:01.382
reaction.
00:35:01.702 --> 00:35:04.143
I do listen to a lot of music
00:35:04.204 --> 00:35:05.344
that is not in English.
00:35:05.525 --> 00:35:07.266
It's the main driver of that confusion
00:35:07.347 --> 00:35:07.967
more than anything.
00:35:08.588 --> 00:35:11.570
I also follow a bunch of athletes who
00:35:11.590 --> 00:35:13.952
are not from America.
00:35:14.293 --> 00:35:15.474
I watch a lot of disc golf in
00:35:15.494 --> 00:35:16.014
other countries.
00:35:16.034 --> 00:35:18.016
There's just some beautiful courses in
00:35:18.996 --> 00:35:20.117
other countries that you wouldn't
00:35:20.157 --> 00:35:21.079
necessarily be like,
00:35:21.219 --> 00:35:22.880
I should go to Estonia because they've got
00:35:22.940 --> 00:35:23.820
great disc golf.
00:35:23.860 --> 00:35:24.222
But like,
00:35:25.177 --> 00:35:26.938
My feed has me convinced I should probably
00:35:26.978 --> 00:35:28.599
go to Estonia and go disc golfing.
00:35:32.820 --> 00:35:33.300
Where are we?
00:35:33.360 --> 00:35:35.963
Disc golf and board games are really doing
00:35:35.983 --> 00:35:37.443
a lot for my mental health this summer,
00:35:37.664 --> 00:35:38.123
I will say.
00:35:41.985 --> 00:35:42.206
Now,
00:35:42.425 --> 00:35:45.186
when the algorithms start to shape our
00:35:45.226 --> 00:35:45.748
narratives,
00:35:48.739 --> 00:35:50.521
young people have an attention span issue.
00:35:51.380 --> 00:35:54.202
I've joked for a long time in my
00:35:54.262 --> 00:35:58.724
career, um, seventeen years,
00:35:59.083 --> 00:36:01.945
because I've made this joke probably the
00:36:01.985 --> 00:36:03.306
first year I was in my career,
00:36:03.885 --> 00:36:05.166
because I got diagnosed super late,
00:36:05.226 --> 00:36:07.208
but I went in to get my diagnosis
00:36:07.228 --> 00:36:09.389
for ADHD by telling the psychologist who
00:36:09.409 --> 00:36:11.010
was going to do my assessment that I
00:36:11.090 --> 00:36:11.530
had ADHD.
00:36:11.690 --> 00:36:13.471
I was just there to do the paperwork.
00:36:15.438 --> 00:36:16.338
But I made the joke for a lot
00:36:16.358 --> 00:36:17.719
of years that I grew up on thirty
00:36:17.739 --> 00:36:18.498
minute cartoons.
00:36:18.539 --> 00:36:20.860
That's about the extent of my attention
00:36:20.900 --> 00:36:21.219
span.
00:36:21.619 --> 00:36:23.340
Now that's a gross oversimplification and
00:36:23.440 --> 00:36:24.701
also not true.
00:36:26.001 --> 00:36:27.422
I don't know that my attention span is
00:36:27.481 --> 00:36:29.003
thirty minutes, that's for sure.
00:36:29.802 --> 00:36:31.284
But the idea that, yes,
00:36:31.324 --> 00:36:34.184
the medium of television that I consumed
00:36:34.224 --> 00:36:35.744
most often as a child was cartoons,
00:36:35.764 --> 00:36:37.226
and those cartoons are twenty-two minute
00:36:37.286 --> 00:36:39.385
episodes with a couple of commercial
00:36:39.405 --> 00:36:39.927
breaks, right?
00:36:40.367 --> 00:36:43.407
So the idea that that
00:36:44.311 --> 00:36:46.474
isn't my natural resting attention span,
00:36:46.494 --> 00:36:48.275
but that attention span has been fed to
00:36:48.315 --> 00:36:48.496
me.
00:36:48.536 --> 00:36:51.938
That's the medium I consumed most often in
00:36:51.978 --> 00:36:53.639
a way where like I almost always have
00:36:53.659 --> 00:36:54.340
the radio on.
00:36:54.661 --> 00:36:56.302
There's always noise going on.
00:36:56.382 --> 00:36:58.304
Cause I'd like a level of stimulation,
00:36:59.184 --> 00:37:00.485
but the attention span and the
00:37:00.545 --> 00:37:01.186
interaction,
00:37:01.266 --> 00:37:03.969
the engagement as it were with the radio
00:37:04.009 --> 00:37:06.690
was lower than with the television slower
00:37:06.710 --> 00:37:07.711
than it is with the phone.
00:37:08.251 --> 00:37:08.532
So, again,
00:37:08.552 --> 00:37:12.476
some of this stuff is like the narrative
00:37:12.637 --> 00:37:13.978
has existed for a long time.
00:37:14.018 --> 00:37:15.599
Again, going back to Marshall McLuhan,
00:37:15.639 --> 00:37:16.762
going back to Guy Debord,
00:37:16.802 --> 00:37:17.621
going back to some of these.
00:37:17.641 --> 00:37:20.525
I don't think McLuhan was French.
00:37:21.126 --> 00:37:22.887
McLuhan's not a French name, is it?
00:37:23.168 --> 00:37:23.528
I don't know.
00:37:23.929 --> 00:37:24.670
I'm bad at that game.
00:37:25.590 --> 00:37:27.373
Guy Debord, definitely French.
00:37:27.853 --> 00:37:28.494
Yeah.
00:37:29.559 --> 00:37:33.864
Even Foucault and talking about discipline
00:37:33.884 --> 00:37:36.505
and punishment and the panopticon and what
00:37:37.067 --> 00:37:40.769
looks different when we're observed versus
00:37:40.809 --> 00:37:42.572
when we know we are not being observed
00:37:42.672 --> 00:37:45.193
and the prison system as a society.
00:37:47.335 --> 00:37:47.697
Yeah,
00:37:48.097 --> 00:37:49.938
all these people were already interested
00:37:50.199 --> 00:37:51.320
in what's being tracked,
00:37:51.340 --> 00:37:52.221
what's being watched.
00:37:53.331 --> 00:37:55.675
we're you know now we talk about like
00:37:55.715 --> 00:37:57.338
our tv watches us while we're on our
00:37:57.358 --> 00:38:00.063
phones like yeah that's fucking weird
00:38:01.166 --> 00:38:02.969
there's not really anything natural about
00:38:03.028 --> 00:38:04.711
that it's incredibly dystopian
00:38:06.650 --> 00:38:08.791
And so there's like attention span crisis,
00:38:08.891 --> 00:38:11.514
whatever language screens are killing our
00:38:11.574 --> 00:38:12.195
teens.
00:38:13.976 --> 00:38:14.978
There's again,
00:38:15.038 --> 00:38:17.039
like it's not the screen existing,
00:38:17.099 --> 00:38:18.179
it's the symptom of all these other
00:38:18.199 --> 00:38:18.481
things.
00:38:18.541 --> 00:38:20.442
It's that these algorithms were built with
00:38:20.461 --> 00:38:22.623
these value systems that are bad for us,
00:38:23.405 --> 00:38:24.865
And those value systems are also like
00:38:25.027 --> 00:38:26.807
ruining everything else,
00:38:26.867 --> 00:38:28.670
like our access to third spaces,
00:38:28.690 --> 00:38:30.550
our access to freedom of movement,
00:38:31.032 --> 00:38:34.414
our ability to have rest and relaxation,
00:38:34.715 --> 00:38:38.739
and certainly the crushing of our natural
00:38:38.798 --> 00:38:41.760
resources through exploitative practices.
00:38:43.682 --> 00:38:44.184
Yikes.
00:38:46.900 --> 00:38:48.561
so it's not so much a new attention
00:38:48.581 --> 00:38:50.661
span problem it's a monetization issue
00:38:51.041 --> 00:38:53.242
that is created by capitalism it's
00:38:53.302 --> 00:38:55.103
unfortunate that these horrific
00:38:55.244 --> 00:38:59.865
capitalists are also owning and dictating
00:39:00.085 --> 00:39:03.208
the algorithm to us um you know i
00:39:03.228 --> 00:39:04.909
think the simple version is like outrage
00:39:04.929 --> 00:39:07.690
gets amplified because outrage pays um
00:39:07.750 --> 00:39:10.791
outrage drives engagement engagement again
00:39:10.831 --> 00:39:12.211
another pro wrestling example pro
00:39:12.231 --> 00:39:14.393
wrestling is a really fine simple
00:39:14.472 --> 00:39:15.934
distillation of capitalism
00:39:17.329 --> 00:39:19.010
is why part of the reason I love
00:39:19.030 --> 00:39:19.510
pro wrestling,
00:39:19.530 --> 00:39:20.409
but I also go back to it so
00:39:20.469 --> 00:39:21.070
often because it's like,
00:39:21.650 --> 00:39:25.492
it's a very basic art form for how
00:39:25.512 --> 00:39:26.711
do I get you to spend,
00:39:27.132 --> 00:39:29.193
how do I convince you to give me
00:39:29.233 --> 00:39:30.534
those five dollars in your pocket?
00:39:33.702 --> 00:39:34.882
And so, yeah,
00:39:35.063 --> 00:39:37.403
and like also just cerebral ownership,
00:39:37.483 --> 00:39:37.684
right?
00:39:37.903 --> 00:39:39.184
And the people who are doing the actual
00:39:39.224 --> 00:39:39.483
work,
00:39:39.523 --> 00:39:41.364
the wrestlers do not get those five
00:39:41.405 --> 00:39:41.744
dollars.
00:39:43.144 --> 00:39:44.664
They get a tidy fraction of it.
00:39:44.846 --> 00:39:46.306
That's the wrestling business.
00:39:46.326 --> 00:39:47.186
It's super carny.
00:39:47.206 --> 00:39:50.407
There's a good reference for capitalism in
00:39:50.447 --> 00:39:51.746
pro wrestling pretty much all the time.
00:39:52.427 --> 00:39:53.126
But Eric Bischoff,
00:39:53.146 --> 00:39:55.188
the guy who ran WCW into the ground,
00:39:56.920 --> 00:39:58.021
That's an oversimplification.
00:39:58.481 --> 00:39:59.101
If you know,
00:39:59.523 --> 00:40:01.003
that's a funny thing I just said, though.
00:40:02.485 --> 00:40:03.726
His book that he wrote,
00:40:03.766 --> 00:40:04.847
his biography back in the day,
00:40:04.887 --> 00:40:06.730
is called Controversy Creates Cash.
00:40:06.829 --> 00:40:08.552
And again, very carny,
00:40:08.592 --> 00:40:09.773
very pro-wrestling coded,
00:40:09.813 --> 00:40:12.476
but true for the modern internet and for
00:40:12.576 --> 00:40:13.536
algorithms, too.
00:40:13.657 --> 00:40:17.621
The idea that the outrage machine sort of
00:40:17.661 --> 00:40:18.201
drives it.
00:40:19.503 --> 00:40:19.782
I think...
00:40:20.043 --> 00:40:21.244
It's more nuanced than that.
00:40:21.264 --> 00:40:22.344
I do really think it is about
00:40:22.423 --> 00:40:23.184
monetization.
00:40:23.204 --> 00:40:24.905
Your favorite YouTuber gets worse when
00:40:24.925 --> 00:40:26.565
they get big and start having to worry
00:40:26.585 --> 00:40:28.286
about views and ads.
00:40:29.748 --> 00:40:30.927
Hi, it's me,
00:40:30.967 --> 00:40:32.128
your friendly neighborhood therapist.
00:40:32.188 --> 00:40:33.690
Doesn't care about that shit because
00:40:33.889 --> 00:40:36.271
actually doing work with real people is
00:40:36.291 --> 00:40:37.672
what pays my bills and is what I'm
00:40:38.152 --> 00:40:39.472
genuinely passionate about.
00:40:40.407 --> 00:40:41.788
I suppose if somebody were to back up
00:40:42.208 --> 00:40:44.048
a dump truck full of money and drop
00:40:44.088 --> 00:40:44.949
it on my front lawn,
00:40:45.130 --> 00:40:48.271
I could be swayed to do this more
00:40:48.311 --> 00:40:49.873
seriously and professionally,
00:40:49.913 --> 00:40:53.235
but I'm just not passionate about that.
00:40:53.295 --> 00:40:56.056
I get a lot from the people aspect
00:40:56.177 --> 00:40:58.778
of this, not talking into a camera,
00:40:59.759 --> 00:41:00.760
which is what's happening right now.
00:41:02.380 --> 00:41:04.862
Thanks for watching me so I'm not just
00:41:04.961 --> 00:41:06.342
screaming into the void.
00:41:08.143 --> 00:41:08.324
So,
00:41:09.443 --> 00:41:11.583
All that, I said, we would wrap up.
00:41:11.603 --> 00:41:13.184
I've got a hair in my mustache, maybe.
00:41:14.664 --> 00:41:15.824
I said, we'd wrap up on like,
00:41:15.903 --> 00:41:17.244
and what do we do about it, right?
00:41:17.664 --> 00:41:21.164
You are what you eat, algorithm addition.
00:41:21.204 --> 00:41:22.925
I mentioned earlier how I handle this,
00:41:22.985 --> 00:41:23.184
right?
00:41:23.686 --> 00:41:25.326
The answer's already there and I'm not
00:41:25.385 --> 00:41:26.726
perfect at it by any stretch of the
00:41:26.746 --> 00:41:27.365
imagination.
00:41:27.806 --> 00:41:29.065
And it's not something that I necessarily
00:41:29.146 --> 00:41:30.606
set out to do intentionally.
00:41:30.666 --> 00:41:33.306
It is a thing that I think my
00:41:33.347 --> 00:41:35.268
brain and my awareness of systems sort of
00:41:35.327 --> 00:41:36.487
picked up on early on
00:41:38.271 --> 00:41:40.012
The algorithms were already doing their
00:41:40.052 --> 00:41:41.972
work on us as we became aware of
00:41:42.012 --> 00:41:42.572
the algorithms.
00:41:42.592 --> 00:41:43.833
Some of the reporting came out on how
00:41:43.853 --> 00:41:45.733
they were being written and coded and
00:41:45.753 --> 00:41:46.333
adjusted.
00:41:46.755 --> 00:41:46.974
And again,
00:41:47.054 --> 00:41:49.396
I think Musk buying Twitter just unmasked
00:41:49.436 --> 00:41:51.356
a lot of that.
00:41:51.396 --> 00:41:52.456
But some of this stuff is stuff that
00:41:52.496 --> 00:41:53.538
researchers have been tracking for a
00:41:53.577 --> 00:41:53.818
while.
00:41:54.677 --> 00:41:56.099
The internet's been around long enough for
00:41:56.139 --> 00:41:57.818
us to have some longitudinal data on some
00:41:57.838 --> 00:41:58.300
of these things.
00:41:58.900 --> 00:42:01.320
Thinking about nutritional intake,
00:42:01.360 --> 00:42:02.641
like you are what you eat,
00:42:02.681 --> 00:42:04.481
like curating your diet,
00:42:04.621 --> 00:42:05.882
what makes you feel good, what doesn't.
00:42:07.307 --> 00:42:11.110
Um, from content to hours, to, uh,
00:42:11.909 --> 00:42:14.771
hours being like usage hours, um,
00:42:14.831 --> 00:42:17.253
to hours being throughout the day when and
00:42:17.293 --> 00:42:17.932
where, like,
00:42:17.952 --> 00:42:18.934
if the first thing you do is grab
00:42:18.954 --> 00:42:21.315
your phone and start scrolling versus if
00:42:21.335 --> 00:42:23.014
you fall asleep while you're scrolling
00:42:23.074 --> 00:42:25.456
versus if you curate that somewhere else
00:42:25.496 --> 00:42:27.317
to be a much more intentional thing.
00:42:28.217 --> 00:42:28.458
Um.
00:42:30.030 --> 00:42:32.032
Being aware of the outrage machine,
00:42:32.072 --> 00:42:33.952
what they're going for is content.
00:42:33.992 --> 00:42:37.554
So when you angrily caps lock,
00:42:38.215 --> 00:42:39.235
leave comments,
00:42:40.956 --> 00:42:42.157
you're going to get more of that stuff.
00:42:42.197 --> 00:42:43.936
And if that thing made you so mad
00:42:44.016 --> 00:42:45.858
to comment and then your algorithm keeps
00:42:45.918 --> 00:42:47.039
sending you that stuff because you're
00:42:47.079 --> 00:42:47.539
engaging,
00:42:47.559 --> 00:42:48.739
that's not going to be good for your
00:42:48.780 --> 00:42:49.659
mental wellness overall.
00:42:49.760 --> 00:42:51.101
It's just going to keep you mad.
00:42:53.288 --> 00:42:54.009
So some of that stuff,
00:42:54.108 --> 00:42:55.728
getting information from other sources,
00:42:55.809 --> 00:42:56.610
read books,
00:42:56.650 --> 00:42:58.291
go to your local bookstore and find the
00:42:58.311 --> 00:42:59.710
new books and see what's there.
00:43:00.811 --> 00:43:02.972
I think again, like having conversations,
00:43:03.072 --> 00:43:04.432
one of the weird things about the internet
00:43:04.452 --> 00:43:05.653
that's nice for some people,
00:43:05.753 --> 00:43:07.753
somebody who grew up in like AOL Instant
00:43:07.793 --> 00:43:08.215
Messenger,
00:43:09.876 --> 00:43:12.137
and who likes texting versus talking on
00:43:12.177 --> 00:43:12.699
the phone,
00:43:12.778 --> 00:43:14.420
there are parts of my brain that really
00:43:14.501 --> 00:43:16.003
like asynchronous conversation.
00:43:16.103 --> 00:43:17.304
I like being able to think about how
00:43:17.324 --> 00:43:17.905
I'm gonna respond.
00:43:17.945 --> 00:43:19.407
I like being able to write out my
00:43:19.447 --> 00:43:21.128
response and see it before somebody else
00:43:21.148 --> 00:43:22.409
is gonna have an opportunity to react to
00:43:22.449 --> 00:43:22.530
it.
00:43:23.311 --> 00:43:24.353
And I get a lot,
00:43:25.427 --> 00:43:27.248
from real life interaction with another
00:43:27.307 --> 00:43:30.309
human where their eyes are going um what
00:43:30.331 --> 00:43:31.851
their body language is telling me while
00:43:31.871 --> 00:43:34.934
we're communicating um i i can feed a
00:43:34.994 --> 00:43:36.855
lot on people's energy in a different way
00:43:37.355 --> 00:43:39.896
in person than online and so again there
00:43:39.916 --> 00:43:41.577
are times where the asynchronous part
00:43:41.657 --> 00:43:43.400
works really well i think and there are
00:43:43.420 --> 00:43:44.820
times where it's like yeah no we're just
00:43:44.840 --> 00:43:46.181
like mammals and so we want to see
00:43:46.202 --> 00:43:47.563
what the other mammals around us are doing
00:43:47.603 --> 00:43:50.864
that community aspect that in real life
00:43:50.905 --> 00:43:53.547
face-to-face interaction does have meaning
00:43:54.387 --> 00:43:54.507
um
00:43:55.307 --> 00:43:57.068
and and certainly helps us and again some
00:43:57.108 --> 00:43:59.971
of the shitty ideas that get I think
00:44:00.331 --> 00:44:02.572
propagandized online and turned into like
00:44:02.672 --> 00:44:05.114
normal things fall really flat on their
00:44:05.153 --> 00:44:08.996
face in real life like I don't know
00:44:09.036 --> 00:44:10.958
I can't I can't imagine somebody like Ben
00:44:10.978 --> 00:44:13.760
Shapiro or Nick Fuentes has like a ton
00:44:13.800 --> 00:44:16.721
of real life friends that they like talk
00:44:16.760 --> 00:44:19.922
to the way they do their shows um
00:44:19.963 --> 00:44:21.985
this this me is how I talk in
00:44:22.025 --> 00:44:22.485
real life
00:44:24.264 --> 00:44:25.505
Some of my clients are like, yeah, yeah,
00:44:25.525 --> 00:44:26.405
yeah, Jeremy, capitalism.
00:44:26.545 --> 00:44:27.385
I know, I've heard you.
00:44:27.425 --> 00:44:28.905
I've heard you get on that soapbox before.
00:44:30.086 --> 00:44:32.847
That's just how I am.
00:44:32.867 --> 00:44:35.730
So, and again, like, yes,
00:44:35.809 --> 00:44:37.489
I want people building community locally.
00:44:37.530 --> 00:44:38.490
I want people organizing.
00:44:38.510 --> 00:44:39.650
I want people doing that,
00:44:39.692 --> 00:44:41.753
like builds a better world than this
00:44:41.853 --> 00:44:43.853
algorithm driven slop we're being given.
00:44:44.994 --> 00:44:46.954
The gruel we get from our dystopian tech
00:44:47.074 --> 00:44:48.735
overlords, right?
00:44:51.126 --> 00:44:54.009
And it's not perfect discipline.
00:44:54.048 --> 00:44:55.451
It's not like willpower.
00:44:55.610 --> 00:44:59.893
It's having parameters in place and then
00:44:59.954 --> 00:45:03.476
having other sources for getting our
00:45:03.556 --> 00:45:04.777
intellectual stimulation.
00:45:04.838 --> 00:45:07.099
Like one of the things the internet truly
00:45:07.721 --> 00:45:10.443
misses for us is our bodies, right?
00:45:10.483 --> 00:45:12.083
We might get intellectual stimulation,
00:45:12.664 --> 00:45:13.626
maybe, right?
00:45:13.806 --> 00:45:14.646
If we're careful, right?
00:45:15.788 --> 00:45:17.088
with curating that we might just be
00:45:17.108 --> 00:45:19.550
getting like slop and outrage and again i
00:45:19.570 --> 00:45:20.769
mean i think a lot of what people
00:45:20.809 --> 00:45:22.771
see on the internet is like what used
00:45:22.791 --> 00:45:25.012
to be the tabloids at your supermarket and
00:45:25.032 --> 00:45:26.773
those always sold incredibly well right
00:45:26.873 --> 00:45:28.434
like there were so many of them because
00:45:28.454 --> 00:45:31.916
people bought them um i do think people
00:45:31.956 --> 00:45:34.677
are not watching long form video essays by
00:45:34.777 --> 00:45:36.697
high level scholars generally i think it's
00:45:36.717 --> 00:45:38.139
the outrage machine i think it's
00:45:39.018 --> 00:45:41.181
your shitty friend down the block who has
00:45:41.201 --> 00:45:44.063
a sports YouTube channel and somehow that
00:45:44.103 --> 00:45:44.682
popped off.
00:45:44.822 --> 00:45:48.186
I don't think most people are using the
00:45:48.206 --> 00:45:49.927
internet to get intellectual stimulation
00:45:49.947 --> 00:45:52.068
and being kind by suggesting that's the
00:45:52.128 --> 00:45:52.389
norm.
00:45:53.467 --> 00:45:55.389
um but it is missing any sort of
00:45:55.429 --> 00:45:56.849
physical stimulation right like we're not
00:45:57.190 --> 00:46:00.313
moving and people have again this is such
00:46:00.333 --> 00:46:02.755
a modern world this is such a modern
00:46:02.815 --> 00:46:04.416
problem that like we don't move enough
00:46:04.456 --> 00:46:05.836
that we like need to go someplace to
00:46:05.896 --> 00:46:07.858
move and then we've also monetized that
00:46:07.898 --> 00:46:08.858
like going to the gym you got to
00:46:08.898 --> 00:46:10.400
pay for your membership just to like use
00:46:10.420 --> 00:46:11.541
your body the way it was designed to
00:46:11.561 --> 00:46:13.501
be used because there's no free space or
00:46:13.521 --> 00:46:15.943
whatever um so again like the idea that
00:46:15.963 --> 00:46:17.324
we like walk while we're listening to our
00:46:17.364 --> 00:46:19.286
podcast or we get on the stationary bike
00:46:19.326 --> 00:46:20.726
while we're watching our shows like
00:46:22.773 --> 00:46:25.876
sure but but that's not that's a solution
00:46:25.976 --> 00:46:30.378
to that's using the thing that created the
00:46:30.398 --> 00:46:32.440
problem as the solution again it's a nice
00:46:32.481 --> 00:46:33.981
little tight loop that capitalism has
00:46:34.021 --> 00:46:38.146
built but like that's not what we need
00:46:40.208 --> 00:46:42.208
we need friends and barbecues and game
00:46:42.248 --> 00:46:46.253
nights and community gatherings and yeah
00:46:46.273 --> 00:46:47.554
oh
00:46:49.150 --> 00:46:54.715
The intentionality behind setting some
00:46:54.735 --> 00:46:56.398
parameters I think is accessible.
00:46:56.478 --> 00:46:57.960
I think it's the consistency to do that
00:46:58.019 --> 00:46:59.961
regularly and do that well is where it
00:46:59.981 --> 00:47:00.442
gets difficult.
00:47:01.242 --> 00:47:03.985
But the algorithm isn't all powerful and
00:47:04.025 --> 00:47:05.226
it's certainly not all knowing.
00:47:05.268 --> 00:47:06.789
It has a lot of data certainly that
00:47:06.809 --> 00:47:09.351
it's trained on and it is actively
00:47:09.371 --> 00:47:10.552
capturing data from you.
00:47:11.657 --> 00:47:14.186
So protect your online privacy as best you
00:47:14.226 --> 00:47:14.447
can.
00:47:14.847 --> 00:47:16.012
It's a losing battle,
00:47:16.092 --> 00:47:17.615
but doing something is better than doing
00:47:17.677 --> 00:47:17.978
nothing.
00:47:20.378 --> 00:47:23.780
the algorithm is not necessarily making
00:47:23.800 --> 00:47:26.021
you into something there are some biases
00:47:26.041 --> 00:47:28.143
that exist in algorithms that research has
00:47:28.163 --> 00:47:30.043
started to show but ultimately what it is
00:47:30.083 --> 00:47:32.224
doing is it is turning you into the
00:47:32.264 --> 00:47:35.907
product the consumer is also the commodity
00:47:35.967 --> 00:47:37.527
and so the question isn't what is your
00:47:37.608 --> 00:47:40.469
algorithm training you into the question
00:47:40.510 --> 00:47:42.431
is what is the algorithm learning is
00:47:42.490 --> 00:47:43.711
easiest to monetize from you
00:47:44.512 --> 00:47:44.811
Um,
00:47:44.851 --> 00:47:46.773
what will make you sit through more ads?
00:47:46.813 --> 00:47:48.235
What will make you click on something and
00:47:48.255 --> 00:47:50.376
buy it is, is what it is.
00:47:50.416 --> 00:47:54.360
And so again, like TikTok shopping,
00:47:54.400 --> 00:47:56.001
YouTube short shopping is somebody who
00:47:56.021 --> 00:47:57.902
puts the podcast on YouTube and has a
00:47:57.922 --> 00:47:59.164
YouTube channel where I talk about other
00:47:59.204 --> 00:47:59.523
stuff.
00:48:00.143 --> 00:48:00.244
Um,
00:48:01.806 --> 00:48:03.706
YouTube shopping is like really pushed on
00:48:03.786 --> 00:48:04.967
us as creators.
00:48:05.007 --> 00:48:06.068
I don't like thinking myself as a creator,
00:48:06.088 --> 00:48:06.769
but I am right.
00:48:06.789 --> 00:48:08.010
Could put up multiple things a week,
00:48:08.050 --> 00:48:08.351
I guess.
00:48:09.050 --> 00:48:09.110
Um,
00:48:10.048 --> 00:48:11.849
That's like what they want.
00:48:11.951 --> 00:48:12.170
Again,
00:48:12.210 --> 00:48:13.931
it's like the commodification of this.
00:48:14.012 --> 00:48:15.353
If we're getting eyeballs on this,
00:48:15.393 --> 00:48:16.773
how do we make money off of it?
00:48:17.434 --> 00:48:18.094
So ultimately,
00:48:18.516 --> 00:48:21.918
it's not that complicated at the end of
00:48:21.978 --> 00:48:23.940
it all to say it just simply wants
00:48:23.960 --> 00:48:25.360
to be able to monetize you.
00:48:25.561 --> 00:48:26.661
That's capitalism.
00:48:28.443 --> 00:48:32.067
If you're not choosing what to eat,
00:48:32.126 --> 00:48:33.847
if you're not choosing what you're feeding
00:48:34.027 --> 00:48:34.889
yourself with,
00:48:35.588 --> 00:48:37.831
then you are being fed by somebody else's
00:48:37.891 --> 00:48:38.492
business model.
00:48:41.164 --> 00:48:42.565
And like, you know, I don't know.
00:48:42.605 --> 00:48:44.646
Modern society has taught us people really
00:48:44.666 --> 00:48:45.726
like licking those boots.
00:48:46.067 --> 00:48:48.407
The billionaire boot is some people's
00:48:48.487 --> 00:48:53.751
acquired taste.
00:48:53.791 --> 00:48:55.851
But hopefully that feels bad to say out
00:48:55.911 --> 00:48:56.291
loud.
00:48:59.474 --> 00:49:01.454
Hopefully people realize that and don't
00:49:01.474 --> 00:49:03.815
like it.
00:49:03.835 --> 00:49:04.396
That would be cool.
00:49:07.389 --> 00:49:09.650
start sending my podcasts to people to
00:49:09.710 --> 00:49:15.373
ruin their algorithms that'll be fun he
00:49:15.432 --> 00:49:18.014
said as a manipulation tactic to get his
00:49:18.054 --> 00:49:21.336
viewership up no I truly don't care I
00:49:21.356 --> 00:49:22.918
need like three of you to download every
00:49:22.938 --> 00:49:24.559
episode of the podcast if I actually cared
00:49:24.579 --> 00:49:26.199
about my viewership going up that pops a
00:49:26.219 --> 00:49:27.900
nice big number because I have a lot
00:49:27.940 --> 00:49:30.382
of episodes consistency
00:49:32.454 --> 00:49:34.315
Nobody wrote a book that says consistency
00:49:34.376 --> 00:49:35.436
creates cash, right?
00:49:35.657 --> 00:49:36.737
Controversy creates cash.
00:49:38.840 --> 00:49:41.101
But I'm doing the consistent thing because
00:49:41.161 --> 00:49:42.443
I can get a little weird about numbers.
00:49:43.523 --> 00:49:44.483
My neurodivergent brain.
00:49:46.184 --> 00:49:46.686
Let's see.
00:49:46.806 --> 00:49:47.847
Updates about the podcast.
00:49:48.266 --> 00:49:49.668
For those of you who are tuning in,
00:49:49.728 --> 00:49:50.548
I've been at fifty.
00:49:50.748 --> 00:49:51.750
Thanks for hanging out.
00:49:53.550 --> 00:49:55.632
I have gone from talking about having
00:49:55.693 --> 00:49:58.295
guests to scheduling guests.
00:49:58.434 --> 00:49:59.295
Hooray!
00:50:01.016 --> 00:50:01.556
It's summer.
00:50:01.637 --> 00:50:02.697
It's a weird time to schedule.
00:50:02.817 --> 00:50:03.637
And admittedly,
00:50:03.677 --> 00:50:04.759
I took most of the spring off for
00:50:04.818 --> 00:50:05.699
even reaching out to people.
00:50:05.978 --> 00:50:07.579
But again,
00:50:08.000 --> 00:50:11.021
I have not just the thought of getting
00:50:11.041 --> 00:50:13.463
guests on, but actual guests scheduled.
00:50:13.963 --> 00:50:14.983
So for the next couple of weeks,
00:50:15.023 --> 00:50:16.625
we'll start sprinkling in some guests.
00:50:16.864 --> 00:50:19.706
I'm looking at some version of sanity for
00:50:19.746 --> 00:50:22.349
myself in the sense that like,
00:50:23.188 --> 00:50:24.891
a lot of my work is also geared
00:50:24.911 --> 00:50:27.112
around scheduling i i don't necessarily
00:50:27.152 --> 00:50:29.355
slot my clients into every week sessions
00:50:29.394 --> 00:50:31.717
it's just not how i do therapy and
00:50:31.737 --> 00:50:33.159
that tends not to be what my clients
00:50:33.219 --> 00:50:35.800
need from me um so there's a lot
00:50:35.820 --> 00:50:37.302
of scheduling that i have to do in
00:50:37.342 --> 00:50:39.443
my day-to-day job in my actual real life
00:50:39.483 --> 00:50:42.728
job that pays the bills and i just
00:50:42.748 --> 00:50:44.409
sort of get tapped out on scheduling and
00:50:44.429 --> 00:50:45.750
so thinking about adding
00:50:47.369 --> 00:50:50.050
four guests a month or four point three
00:50:50.090 --> 00:50:52.090
guests a month for the four point three
00:50:52.130 --> 00:50:54.851
weeks of the month got to be too
00:50:54.891 --> 00:50:55.231
much.
00:50:55.291 --> 00:50:56.231
And so, yeah,
00:50:56.271 --> 00:50:57.572
we're going to try and hit a better
00:50:57.632 --> 00:51:01.353
cadence with that and sprinkle in guests,
00:51:01.393 --> 00:51:03.974
maybe every other episode or that type of
00:51:04.014 --> 00:51:04.574
thing.
00:51:05.215 --> 00:51:06.934
And it's just a lot easier for me
00:51:07.014 --> 00:51:08.416
and the age of my kids and when
00:51:08.456 --> 00:51:09.896
I have time to record and all those
00:51:09.936 --> 00:51:11.916
things where I have that flexibility to
00:51:11.936 --> 00:51:13.416
just record a solo episode,
00:51:14.117 --> 00:51:15.217
talk about what I want to talk about.
00:51:17.719 --> 00:51:18.639
So, yeah,
00:51:19.179 --> 00:51:20.740
but we'll have some guests coming up,
00:51:21.001 --> 00:51:22.702
which is super cool and I'm excited for.
00:51:23.463 --> 00:51:25.003
Always fun to get other people's
00:51:25.043 --> 00:51:27.465
perspectives and voices on things that I
00:51:27.485 --> 00:51:29.085
don't know as much about because I like
00:51:29.146 --> 00:51:30.507
learning too.
00:51:31.088 --> 00:51:32.768
Look at us engaging our critical thinking
00:51:32.789 --> 00:51:34.190
skills together.
00:51:34.210 --> 00:51:37.952
All right, y'all.
00:51:40.539 --> 00:51:41.800
Let's see, my mental health.
00:51:42.081 --> 00:51:42.740
I said this earlier,
00:51:42.960 --> 00:51:44.342
board games and disc golf.
00:51:44.362 --> 00:51:46.041
Disc golf has been phenomenal.
00:51:46.081 --> 00:51:47.382
As somebody who was dealing with an injury
00:51:47.463 --> 00:51:49.043
last year, I've been out a ton,
00:51:49.423 --> 00:51:51.144
so much that my calves are super tight
00:51:51.244 --> 00:51:52.164
and my ankles hurt.
00:51:52.264 --> 00:51:53.925
So now I'm in PT because I need
00:51:53.945 --> 00:51:55.347
to learn how to walk properly.
00:51:56.507 --> 00:51:57.807
Somebody played D one sports.
00:51:57.847 --> 00:51:59.288
It's pretty frustrating to have to do all
00:51:59.327 --> 00:52:01.068
this basic biomechanics stuff.
00:52:03.447 --> 00:52:05.208
Not a huge shock as a Nerd Aversion
00:52:05.248 --> 00:52:05.728
person though.
00:52:06.469 --> 00:52:07.750
And yeah,
00:52:07.769 --> 00:52:09.650
like getting into some role-playing games
00:52:09.690 --> 00:52:10.550
beyond D&D.
00:52:11.891 --> 00:52:13.452
If you pay attention to,
00:52:13.532 --> 00:52:14.954
if you watch my YouTube,
00:52:15.054 --> 00:52:17.255
I put out a number of videos about
00:52:17.275 --> 00:52:18.416
Baldur's Gate three,
00:52:18.576 --> 00:52:19.876
which is pretty much the only video game
00:52:19.916 --> 00:52:21.237
I played for the past couple of years.
00:52:21.338 --> 00:52:22.157
Not that I game a ton,
00:52:22.478 --> 00:52:23.378
I got young kids.
00:52:23.438 --> 00:52:25.000
And if the PlayStation is on,
00:52:25.039 --> 00:52:26.300
it's usually because the kids are using
00:52:26.340 --> 00:52:26.740
it, not me.
00:52:28.422 --> 00:52:30.523
but i got into dnd uh at a
00:52:30.583 --> 00:52:33.226
time when baldur's gate was still thriving
00:52:33.706 --> 00:52:36.407
and so a lot of dnd um and
00:52:36.427 --> 00:52:38.168
i'm branching out to some other tabletop
00:52:38.248 --> 00:52:40.210
role-playing games so that's been really
00:52:40.231 --> 00:52:42.351
great really like really interesting stuff
00:52:42.411 --> 00:52:45.675
for me as a neurodivergent person as a
00:52:45.934 --> 00:52:49.978
audi hd brain that likes novelty and um
00:52:51.143 --> 00:52:54.186
new interesting ideas and definitely likes
00:52:54.226 --> 00:52:55.706
to read the rules for every board game
00:52:55.786 --> 00:52:58.289
i own um that mix of like there's
00:52:58.349 --> 00:53:00.289
rules and there's also novelty has been
00:53:00.329 --> 00:53:03.293
really great for some of the lesser known
00:53:03.733 --> 00:53:06.954
role-playing games um and the therapeutic
00:53:06.974 --> 00:53:08.655
value of that right like i greg shanick
00:53:08.675 --> 00:53:11.018
was a early guest on the podcast talking
00:53:11.038 --> 00:53:13.119
about role-playing games in a therapeutic
00:53:13.179 --> 00:53:14.679
sense um i might get
00:53:15.621 --> 00:53:17.722
a local business on let's talk about some
00:53:17.742 --> 00:53:19.842
of the role-playing games too so again
00:53:20.003 --> 00:53:23.324
guests are scheduled and get outside and
00:53:23.364 --> 00:53:26.144
throw some discs at some baskets get out
00:53:26.244 --> 00:53:28.985
on the water it's been stupid hot so
00:53:29.045 --> 00:53:31.907
when disking is not pleasant it's great to
00:53:31.947 --> 00:53:35.389
be in the water um that's how so
00:53:35.748 --> 00:53:37.150
that's how i've been rolling these days
00:53:37.389 --> 00:53:40.411
this hot hot summer twenty six
00:53:42.934 --> 00:53:44.856
So do those things if you're looking for
00:53:44.876 --> 00:53:45.237
stuff to do.
00:53:45.757 --> 00:53:46.518
They're great.
00:53:49.101 --> 00:53:49.440
Yeah,
00:53:49.481 --> 00:53:51.362
all that in service of taking care of
00:53:51.382 --> 00:53:52.923
yourself, taking care of other people.
00:53:54.885 --> 00:53:57.208
We'll be back next week with another new
00:53:57.489 --> 00:53:58.168
episode.
00:53:58.228 --> 00:53:59.409
Peace out, everybody.