Rethink Your Rules
Dr Jenny Hobbs is a practicing physician with ADHD, a wife, and a mom to differently wired kids. She combines candid, insightful conversations with practical tools to help you enjoy better relationships at home, at work, and with yourself.
Rethink Your Rules
Setting Limits with Compassion: Feelings First, not Feelings Only
Have you ever struggled to balance empathy and authority as a mom? This can be one of the biggest challenges of parenting, particularly if you have a neurodiverse family with lots of big emotions. We want to show compassion for our kids, but what bout when they're being rude or violent? How can we also teach them that those behaviors are unacceptable?
That's the topic of this week's episode. First, we'll explore how "Feelings First" is not about allowing emotions INSTEAD of setting limits. It's not Either / Or. It's not "Feelings Only." It is also important to set limits & expectations, to keep everyone safe, and to teach your kids to be kind, successful humans. It's just that all of this will be much easier and more effective if you've established a baseline of empathy & connection first.
Then, we'll talk about how setting boundaries with compassion is not only possible, but essential. And I'll share some practical strategies for maintaining firm yet empathetic boundaries, particularly for neurodiverse children.
By prioritizing physical safety while also acknowledging feelings with compassion, you create an environment of less stress and more connection. And this makes it easier for your kids to respect you and (eventually) actually learn from you.
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Need help applying this to your life? Ready for more strategies like this, but personalized to YOU? Set up your free consult and let’s talk about your unique situation and how coaching can help:
https://getcoached.jennyhobbsmd.com/consult
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Everything on this podcast and website is for informational purposes only and should not be used as medical advice. Views are our own, and do not necessarily represent those of our past or present employers or colleagues.
Welcome to Rethink your Rules with Jenny Hobbs MD. A fresh perspective on relationships, success and happiness for high achieving moms.
Speaker 2:Hey, there it's Jenny. Welcome back to another episode of Rethink your Rules. We are here on location on Hobbs Family Vacation. It's been a pretty good week, a lot of ups and downs. At the moment I'm just letting you know that I'm here because there's a dog trying to scratch my door down and some kids who may or may not be coming in, so I don't know if you're going to hear some background noise.
Speaker 2:I will try to keep this kind of brief, since it is the summer and I'm sure you also have lots going on with your kids and family as well. But I wanted to be sure to show up here and continue our conversation about kids and their big emotions, because I kind of left some things hanging last time that are really important and you probably have some unanswered questions. So I wanted to come in here and just kind of respond to more of the questions and concerns that I hear from people. When we talk about the idea of responding to our kids' big emotions in a compassionate, empathetic way or that concept, I call feelings first. So, if you remember, I talked in the last couple episodes about some examples of where you know our kid might be really upset about something and they may say or do something really inappropriate from the place of that big emotion and anger, like the example I started with, was my daughter being upset that I was going to be working on her birthday, right, and obviously her blaming me or telling me to quit my job and all those things was kind of not very fair or, you know, logical. You know there were some things that were said and done in that case that weren't maybe the best way to handle it. And I think I gave a few other examples as well. And I'm sure if you think of your kids, you can think of many times where they have been upset about something and they have chosen to display it in a way that's inappropriate, right, whether that was hitting someone or stealing their cookie from their brother because they thought it wasn't fair, or yelling a swear word back at you or whatever the example may be in your case, right, something they did at school, maybe that was totally inappropriate.
Speaker 2:So when we have these moments and our kids, their actions are problematic, right. I really strongly advocate for this idea of putting the feelings first and halting our sort of intuitive response to like correct them, yell at them, you know, maybe punish them or give them a consequence. I just recommend holding off on that. And I've noticed I'm not saying never to do any of those things. Okay, we'll come back to those things, but remember, I'm just saying the first thing you want to do in that moment is respond to the feelings that they're having that are leading to that action, because their feelings are not the problem and their feelings want to be heard. Now, as I talked about in the last episode, that doesn't necessarily mean just because you are compassionate, empathetic about their feelings, that you are going to change things for them based on their feelings. Right, or try to help them avoid it. That doesn't even mean you have to agree that their feeling is appropriate, but often, if you do take a minute, their feeling will make some sense and you might even easily be able to empathize.
Speaker 2:The classic example I always give of this is when you know my son was little and he got really upset about his banana being broken in half and you know at first glance it's like listen, like it's still gonna taste the same. It's just here on the table. It didn't fall on the floor but it didn't take me too long to, sort of I just learned the strategy. So I thought, okay, but how can I put his feelings first and how can I empathize? And I thought I don't like it when I expect my food to be one way and then it's another way. Right, so I could easily say to him hey, that's frustrating when your food's not the way that you want it to be. That didn't make his response appropriate, right, whatever he was, whatever tantrum he was throwing, absolutely not. And notice how, when I responded in that way and I could give him empathy, it wasn't like he and I sat down and had like a 20 minute deep conversation about all of his feelings. Right, I just acknowledged it, with no drama, just empathy, simple words, simple sentence. I didn't overdo it and that was it. Now, in that case, he actually just calmed right down, visibly calmed down, sat down and ate the broken banana with no more issue.
Speaker 2:Obviously, it does not always work that easily, especially as they get older or they have bigger emotions, right, but that's kind of the, the image I want you to have. That, and then the one I've talked about a few times of, like the kids stubbing their toe, right, how they just need you to show some empathy and get through that moment and then it's fine. Or the example I gave again of my daughter, where she just needed a little time for someone to empathize and in some space and then to come back to that. So that's the picture I want you to have when we talk about feelings first, whether it works immediately or not, that's where you want to start and the reason that I emphasize this as the starting point. There's a couple of them.
Speaker 2:Number one is that, while it doesn't always work as beautifully as that example with the banana, it often does really take the edge off the conversation and it kind of turns you and your child from being in this oppositional argumentative posture to a team. They kind of feel a little bit more like you're on their side. They kind of get out of their primitive brain and their fight or flight and all those you know the flooding feelings and they're able to be a little bit more calm and logical. And even if they stay really upset and disagree with you and you can't come to an agreement about the particular issue that's at hand like with my daughter, I mean, I wasn't going to not go to work and lose my job over this, right, so we were going to be at an impasse to some degree right, even if you can't get to the point where everybody finds a right solution. They calm right down and do exactly what you want and everything's fine. You are building a connection and a trust between the two of you and a trust between the two of you, and that pays off in the long run. Right, for a number of reasons.
Speaker 2:The other thing, the other reason I focus on this so so much, is because many of us, as parents, struggle with putting feelings first, right? So many of us, especially if we ourselves are neurodiverse, maybe we had ADHD or autism. We might've not been the easiest kids to raise and so we may have had big emotions and we were taught to ignore them. And so we have this parenting model, this like firmness, really strong boundaries. We may have been yelled at or even abused as kids. So that's the model we have in our mind, right? And we often are perfectionists and our parents were perfectionists.
Speaker 2:So we have these really high standards, particularly if you're you know, listening to this podcast you're probably like me. You're a high achieving, well-educated working mom, so most likely you also are in a job that has high standards. You also are used to meeting those high standards. You're used to being in a job, potentially, where there's a lot of logic and rationale I call it hyper-rationality right, so there's a lot of logical thinking and rational thinking that is considered to be the best way to be. So, like if you're in a medical field, for example, right, there's a lot of focus on what's the most logical way to do this, and so it's just very easy in this interaction with your kid, to go down the path of what's comfortable to you, which is doing things right Perfectionism, logic, reason.
Speaker 2:And there are kids, so most of what they're doing makes no logical sense to us, right. And then we've got this model from our parents of, like, kids should just act this way and kids should do this, and, and we have all this baggage about what's, what it means about us as a mom if they don't do these things. Right, what other people are thinking? So all of that comes into play and that is a lot to overcome in the moment, right, and that's why I want to overemphasize to your brain in that moment that you just want to block off that other pathway for a minute that's so natural to you and go down the unnatural pathway of acknowledging their feelings first. Okay, so two reasons I focus on that one because I do think it actually works better for your kid and their behavior in the short and long term and because I think it is hard for you to remember. So you need something quick to focus on, because your tendency is going to be to go to the one way, so we're kind of overcoming our natural tendencies, which takes some effort.
Speaker 2:But with all of that said, I do know there are a lot of people who question and criticize this idea because they say wait. Question and criticize this idea because they say wait. I mean, we can't just only care about feelings, because obviously there are rules and there's issues of safety and there's issues of becoming a good human who is independent and can, you know, have functional relationships and can do what their boss tells them to do and all that stuff Right, and I absolutely agree with that. That is true, that stuff is important, and so I I want to talk about this a bit, and I was really fortunate because, as I sat down to record this, I actually saw a post on Instagram that had a couple of people articulating the counterpoint to what I've been talking about here in a way that I think is really helpful. So, again, this is not my point of view, but this is something I saw on my Instagram feed. I'm going to read it to you, because you may have thought this or you may have family members think this, and then I want to talk about my response.
Speaker 2:Okay, so the first person is some kind of doctor I don't know what kind, because I actually it was reposted and I couldn't find them. Doctor, I don't know what kind, because I actually it was reposted and I couldn't find them. But they said the vast majority of kids described as anxious, has big emotions and has meltdowns. And then they say in parentheses a term I never heard until about 10 years ago who are referred to my practice simply need parents to be firmer and engage less when their kids tantrum and demand things. It is not easy to make these parenting changes when parents are bombarded by messages that good parents should sit with their kids and quote find out what's really wrong when they are upset, time to do much less and trust yourself more. Okay. And then the person who had posted that that's not someone I follow. They were reposted by someone I do follow who works with kids with ADHD, and they kind of agreed with that point of view, and they added on that they were shocked when they heard a popular parenting influencer advising parents that if their child engages in child to parent violence, they should quote just block their hits and kicks and give them a quote time in, instead of teaching the child that violence towards family members is unacceptable.
Speaker 2:In recent years, social media has influenced many parents to believe that empathy means giving up their parental authority, treating their child as their quote partner in parenting rather than leading them and constantly acting as their concierge therapist what I call quote playing armchair therapist. This approach, where every minor upset or discomfort is analyzed and discussed, can inadvertently strengthen negative emotions and hinder children from moving on naturally. In other words, it denies kids the opportunity to develop resilience and cognitive flexibility, and then it kind of goes on to talk about the outside world, is not going to want to process your kids' emotions, et cetera. So what I thought was really interesting about this is that I actually have many points of agreement with these two people in terms of the underlying concepts that they're talking about.
Speaker 2:What I think we are seeing differently is that they are seeing this as an either or right. Either you're acknowledging these feelings and emotions. Or you're setting limits and boundaries and teaching them how to be a good person in the world, right. And they're sort of thinking that if you are going to acknowledge your kids' emotions, then you are going to be a good person in the world, right. And they're sort of thinking that if you are going to acknowledge your kids' emotions, then you are going to be teaching them that everyone in the world has to acknowledge their emotions, right, and if you are not firmly and quickly and harshly holding a boundary or punishing or lecturing on a boundary all the time, that they're never going to learn not to do that thing in the real world, right. And so there's a lot of sort of, I would say, assumptions or thought errors there that are based on this very all or nothing thinking, which makes sense because we all, we are always tempted to the all or nothing thing, nothing thinking, right. And so it's even evidence in some of the phrases that they said. It's really interesting. They talk about their criticism being, you know, this popular parenting influencer is telling them to give them a time in, instead of teaching the child that violence toward family members is unacceptable. But nobody said that we were doing these. Emotion, emotion first feelings-first responses, instead of teaching them that violence is unacceptable. Right, it's not either or or.
Speaker 2:When they talk about, people believe that empathy means giving up their parental authority. Well, I don't think that's true. I think you can have parental authority while showing empathy, and I would actually argue that being able to show true empathy and to respond to your kids' emotional states while holding on to firm boundaries and staying calm through the whole thing, is actually a way of communicating your authority. You're kind of showing like I'm not threatened by how strongly you feel about this. I'm not stressed out about trying to prove to you that I have control here. I hear what you're saying. I will still decide Moving on right.
Speaker 2:Think about, like a really great boss that you've had where you they actually, because they were able to acknowledge with empathy your feelings, your frustrations, you actually respected them more and you actually, when they did, say, hey, I have to put my foot down or that, I'm sorry. I know this was really stressful and frustrating to everyone here, but we are going to have to do X, y, z. If they have built that trusting relationship with you and they have shown you empathy and truly understood your perspective and they have carefully chosen the moment where they decide to be firm and say this is not negotiable, we have to do this right, you're much more likely to actually respect that boundary, to respect them and to actually walk away feeling like they're thinking about you and the company and everything with the best intentions at heart right, and so that's the kind of authority that you can have with your kid, but that actually is not opposed to being empathetic and compassionate and open and listening. Right, they are part of the same thing. And so I think, as I read what these individuals are saying here on social media, you know, I agree. I agree that there are some situations where it does feel like people have kind of taken things too far on the empathy side.
Speaker 2:It's a lot of what I talked about in my podcast last week, the last episode, where I said you know, people are hearing feelings first and then they're thinking. That means they have to fix the feelings and they have to agree with the feelings and they have to buy into the feelings and they have to adjust the world to avoid their kids having the bad feeling, right? So I think that's what these, these posters, these Instagram posters, are responding to and I a hundred percent agree, right. I just think that they're also falling into the same mindset trap of all or nothing, okay. And so what I want you to do is do feelings first, right, and then I want you to hear the second part of what I'm saying, and the second part is lecture later, learning later, logic later. This actually started out as feelings first, logic later, and the logic later. Really applies nicely if you think of an adult relationship. So pro tip, this can also apply to your marriage, right, and let's say you and your spouse disagree about something.
Speaker 2:It's our temptation to go to like the logic that proves our point of view. But we don't want to do that first, right. We want to respond to their feelings with true empathy first and get to the logic later, after we've connected and everyone's kind of been hurt. So there's fewer examples maybe where you would think of logic in interaction with your kids, but there are some right. But you can replace that with your lecture you want to give them about right and wrong, or how this is never going to work in the real world, or the learning, the thing you want to teach them.
Speaker 2:Right and to some degree I would even say most limits can come later. I'm going to give you a caveat to that in a second. But in general, if we're not talking life or death in that exact moment, in most cases you can start with the compassion for the feelings, the empathy, first, and then bring in the limit, the logic, the lecture, all that other stuff that does matter as something later. Okay, and I say this because when you do bring in the lecture, the learning, the logic, limits, all that, you want to do that from a place of really calm, collected compassion, and most of the time that's really hard to do if we haven't made ourselves pause for a minute and get into that state, and that's where the feelings first kind of helps us do that. We're just going to be so much better at doing that second part if we do the other first. Okay. So please hear me when I say and when you see people like these other influencers I quoted here who are kind of on the other side of the fence here with it just be firm and it'll all work out I really truly believe that you can be firm and you can have authority and you can have boundaries and limits and all of those things, while still putting feelings first. They are not mutually exclusive and they are not all or nothing.
Speaker 2:Okay, parenting is an art. It's not a science. Right? There's no book out there that's going to give you the 100% perfect way to parent. Every single kid, every single parent-k kid dyad, is its own unique thing. Right, as they get older and they change, you may have different ways. You need to balance it. So you're going to be somewhere in that sort of gray zone.
Speaker 2:Right when you're, you're holding two things to be true in your mind. You're showing that higher level thinking and you're modeling for your kid. Two things are true. One, you have big feelings and I care about them and they do matter. And two, that doesn't necessarily change the rules or the limits or what the family is going to do. So, yes, you can absolutely do both. You can be a firm parent with boundaries for important things and be empathetic, regardless of how the kids feel about the boundaries you've set. Okay, where you exactly decide that those firm limits and boundaries are going to be is going to be very personal and it does take some kind of time and trial and error. But I also believe that if you were doing the part where you're really listening to your kids' feelings and paying attention to them with compassion, you will start to get a better sense in your gut of when it's the right time to be firm and maybe push them a bit out of their kids' feelings. And paying attention to them with compassion, you will start to get a better sense in your gut of when it's the right time to be firm and maybe push them a bit out of their comfort zone and when it's the time to sort of be a little bit more accommodating to their concerns.
Speaker 2:And I'm going to talk a lot more about strategies for that going forward, because when you have neurodiverse kids, that is really key, because they are not going to fit in this perfect little box and you're going to think, okay, this is a perfectly reasonable expectation. I'm going to hold firm on it because on paper, this 10 year old kid should be able to do this. Well, if your kid has autism or ADHD or things like that, they simply may not be able to reach that expectation. That makes such reasonable sense to you, right? So you have to have that eye and ear towards your kid and remembering they're doing they do well when they can right and and you may have to be more flexible on more things than another parent. So I want to acknowledge that and that is a big topic.
Speaker 2:I'm not going to go into it in this podcast, but I just want to say you can do both. You can definitely have boundaries with kids who have ADHD, autism, neurotypical kids, odd kids, all those things. But if you're starting with the compassion, empathy, listening feelings first, then you will get better and better at deciding where those boundaries fall. And if you, you know this is one reason I love coaching moms is because when you work with me, we get really good at understanding your brain and that makes you quicker at knowing where you want those boundaries, because you start understanding yourself better, right, and what you value and prioritize For.
Speaker 2:Today, I want to offer to you one really important place where you are going to put limits first and you are going to want to fall on the side of being firm, no matter what their emotions say, and that is physical safety. Okay. So anything that is directly endangering your child's body or another person's body, right there, you're going to want to be making sure you've got your limit in place, first and foremost, and for this I just want you to think of how you would feel if you were standing on the side of the street and your kid was having a big tantrum or meltdown for whatever reason, and then they started running out into traffic, right, as usual, has actually happened to me and my family, which is why I have this example. So you are, of course, going to immediately put your arm around your child to block them from going into the street and getting run over. Right, you are not going to question yourself, you are not going to wonder if they're going to, if you're going to hurt their arm when you do it, or if you're going to hurt their feelings If you yell and tell them not to run in the street while you're grabbing them, you're not going to pause and be like, oh, are you feeling like super upset and restless because you couldn't get ice cream?
Speaker 2:That's so tough. Like you know, you're going to make sure they don't get hit by the car physically quickly, and I don't know if I've had this example, but I have a friend who's had this example where they did physically move their kid in order to protect them, and the kid still to this day remembers that their parent did that and is upset because, in the process of protecting their kid from danger. Their arm got twisted and it hurt, and so this child, you know, years later, is still like mad at their parent for twisting their arm and quote unquote hurting them, okay, and holding a grudge, but the kid has a grudge and they get and holding a grudge, but the kid has a grudge and they get to have a grudge. They get to have that feeling right. But as a parent you're not going to say oh gosh, like maybe I shouldn't have kept them from running into the street and dying, because now they're upset at me later and that boundary that I set really hurt them and really upset them Right, no Cause, you're like 100% clear-cut, I just saved my child from dying and therefore I knew that was a limit, I knew it was boundary, there was no need to like worry about anything else and I'm okay with the consequences of my kid being mad that I restrained them from death, right, no matter what they say, it's just true. So the reason I like this example for you to think about is because you should be pretty much that certain of a boundary or a limit when you decide to be that firm, okay, it should be so clearly, immediately dangerous, that there's no question in your mind that the right thing to do is to stop them from doing it.
Speaker 2:Another example this may be not quite so extreme, but as I think a good one is we've had some physical interactions in our house where one kid is trying to push the other kid down the stairs or choking them and things, and so that's one of those things in our house where we don't sit around talking about the feelings and the fight that led up to it. It's like no, like physically separating you. This is not acceptable to put this other person's body in physical harm, imminent physical harm. So what I want you to do when your kids are acting this way is remember when you're going to start with a firm boundary first, no questions asked. You want to be that certain. You want to be certain that it's a true major safety issue.
Speaker 2:Okay, anything else, something that's a potential safety issue down the line that you have time to sort out, something that's not a great habit or not a great way of acting right or annoying to you or whatever. Almost all of those other things, while they may feel really urgent to you in that moment when your kid is screaming and you're annoyed and frustrated, and whatever else most. All of the other things that you can possibly think of are not actually emergent urgent in that moment. You do have a minute to respond to their emotions and let yourself calm down a bit and then move on to figuring out the limit and how you're going to enforce it and all those things. Okay, so you almost always have that time.
Speaker 2:Now, obviously, in the grand scheme of things, you're probably going to need more non-negotiable, firm boundaries with your kids and just imminent physical danger. But I really want you to try this as a starting point. Please trust me, whether or not you've been erring more on the side of a more firm, high expectation parenting style and you've been frustrated that your kids aren't responding very well, or whether you've been maybe a little bit overly permissive and kind of scared of them being upset about things and just trying to accommodate them and feel like you've kind of lost control. In either case, come to this point where it's just the only thing you really have to worry about is the safety piece urgently. The rest you're going to focus on the emotions first and sort of see what comes up as you do that it will take so much pressure off of you and stress. It will take pressure off your kid, especially if you have a neurodiverse kid who's been having trouble living up to what you're expecting and trying to advocate for themselves and communicate and feeling really frustrated. This just gives everyone a minute to. It's the end of summer. There's lower expectations in general.
Speaker 2:If you're not in school yet, right, maybe just take this time to focus on connection and empathy outside of the safety issue, okay, and see what comes up for all of you, and as you do that, then you can keep coming back here to this podcast and you'll be able to use what you're learning through all of that to decide what you wanna do about all the gray area things in life, like what do I do about screen time? What do I do if they're not doing their homework? How do I handle it if they don't wanna shower and take care of themselves? How do I handle it if they don't want to shower and take care of themselves? How am I going to teach them not to talk back to people? How am I going to teach them that they need to get up and out the door to school on time? All that stuff that is important but doesn't necessarily have to be solved and fixed and perfect right now. It's all going to be much easier for you to sort out how you want to handle it, what you want to do, where you want your limits to be what's best for your kid If you spend some time doing this really simplified approach so that you can focus on getting to know them and understanding what you need and what they need, and practicing putting the feelings first.
Speaker 2:And you might actually be surprised as you do this, like how many things your kids actually kind of solve for themselves when they feel like they're being heard and validated as well. So that may be a side benefit, but if it doesn't happen, it's okay. Every kid is different. You're not doing anything wrong. You're doing amazing. You're here, you're listening, you're showing up, you love your kid. You can't mess that up. I just want to leave you with that. I know this journey is extremely hard and extremely isolating, and I promise you, as long as you're loving that kid and you're doing the best, that you know how, each and every day, you cannot mess that up. All right. So with that, I hope you have an amazing week. I hope you're enjoying this nice August summer weather and I will be back with more expanding again on this topic in a couple of weeks. Talk to you soon. Bye.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening to Rethink your Rules with Jenny Hobbs MD. Would you like to learn more about how to apply this to your own life through personalized coaching with Jenny? Visit us on the web at JennyHobbsMDcom to schedule a free consultation. If you found value in what you heard today, please consider subscribing to the podcast and giving us a five-star rating so we can reach even more women like you.