Men's Mental and Emotional Health with Simon Rinne

Have you ever wondered why discussing men's mental and emotional health feels like tiptoeing through a field of landmines? In this episode of the Balance Code Podcast, we discuss this critical topic with Simon Rinne, a dedicated men's therapist and advocate for mental wellness. 

Simon is a Social Worker and Founder of Mindful Men, a therapy practice dedicated to supporting men to live their best lives. He is passionate about men's mental health as he is also a lived experience therapist.

From breaking down societal expectations to sharing his journey of growth, Simon offers valuable insights into the importance of opening up about men's mental health. So whether you're navigating your own emotional landscape or supporting a loved one, join us for a raw and honest conversation that just might change the way you view mental wellness.

In this episode:

• The societal stigma surrounding men's mental health
• The role of traditional gender norms in inhibiting emotional expression
• Strategies for overcoming barriers to seeking help
• Personal experiences about the journey to emotional well-being
• Practical tips for fostering open communication about mental health

Resources:
⁠⁠Juggling All the Things Workbook⁠⁠
⁠Rebuild Program⁠⁠

Connect with Simon:
LinkedIn

Relationship Game Plan Call

Free Conversation Starter Cards for Couples

Couples Goal Setting Workbook

Submit a Dear Katie episode question

Follow Katie Rössler on Instagram

Transcript

Welcome back to the podcast today. I have Simon Rinne and we're going to be discussing a topic that a lot of people like to hide from, but it's important. We bring it to light. We're going to be talking about men's mental and emotional health today. So whether you're a guy or not, please listen in because I know you've got someone in your life who probably can benefit from some of the things we'll be discussing today.

 And it's probably going to be eyeopening for you no matter what your gender is. So Simon, thank you for being here. I'm excited to just get into this to get really raw with it and honest about what's going on in the world. you are on the opposite end of the world from me, and I'd love for you to introduce yourself, share a little bit about what you do, and then we'll dive into this topic.

Yeah, absolutely. Katie, thanks so much for having me on the show. For anyone who's not familiar with the accent, I am in Australia. I'm on the East coast of Australia in a place called the Sunshine Coast. I'm a social worker. I'm a men's therapist. So I specialize in men's therapy. I'm also a lived [00:01:00] experience therapist.

So I'm someone who, who wears a lived experience of mental illness as like my coat, my cape, my superhero cape, um, and really value talking about the lived experience of mental illness and how we can, you know, Use our personal pain to actually for our purpose and for the fuel, for the things that really light us up.

So that's something that I hope we can, we can touch on today, but outside of that, I'm a keen surfer. I've taken up surfing in my forties and also a loving husband and a father of two. I've got a seven and a four year old. So that's me in a nutshell. Amazing. I love that you took up surfing later in life, like That's awesome.

I've actually thought about doing that too, but I'm landlocked Germany, where am I going to do it? But I thought, I want to surf. Maybe it's a calling, like later in life. You're like, now it's time. Come to me. We've lived up here on the Sunshine Coast for a few years and every year I say to my wife for my birthday, I'd love some surfing lessons, and she never gets them.

So the last year I actually came to a point where I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna go get these surfing lessons [00:02:00] myself, and it just happened to coincide with me finding a It's called waves of wellness. It was a mental health inspired surfing, like learn to surf crew. So you go there, you do a bit of mental health discussions, mindfulness, and then you learn to surf afterwards.

So it was actually a really cool six week program that I did to enter into the surfing space. And I haven't looked back since. And in fact, I'm almost about to buy my second board. Apparently, once you start buying surfboards, you keep adding them to your quiver. So I'm almost about to get my second board.

So really excited for the next week or so when I do that. Congratulations. That's awesome. Okay. So I'm glad that you shared that, that really with surfing, you found like a wellness group with it. Let's dive into men's, mental and emotional health. And I think we just start at ground zero. So why is this even a topic we need to talk about, Simon?

Like culturally around the world, why do we need to talk about this more? Well, a lot of the, my inspiration for even talking about and working in this [00:03:00] space comes from my own lived experience. So, from 8 to 28 undiagnosed Obsessive compulsive disorder. Sorry, I just got my tongue twisted there. depression, anxiety when I was in my teens, discovered alcohol. So I use that for 25 years to feel normal and slow the brain and all that type of stuff. And then in 2020, I experienced burnout as well. So mental health conditions have been a big part of my life, but for a big part of my life, like so many men out there, they really do struggle to talk about it.

In fact, my mental health conditions remain undiagnosed because I didn't know how to talk about it. There was no words for, Hey, let's talk about my mental health growing up in the eighties, nineties and noughties. It was something that we didn't talk about. And so, so many men find themselves in this position.

And so, I created the therapy clinic because I wanted to essentially be the guy from, for other guys that I never had growing up, someone who men can come and talk to me, they can open up, they can share about absolutely anything. And they would be met with [00:04:00] open arms, a safe space to talk. Guidance or tips or tools or strategies that I've used in my personal therapy sessions, to maybe help them work through anxiety, depression, anger, management, substance abuse, whatever it is that's working for them and really do it in a way that also.

De stigmatizes this, notion of going into therapy. And so I do it a little bit differently in, in the sense that I don't really work in a clinic. I work outdoors and on the beach. love to do it on a surfboard one day, watch the space, but out driving around in the car, grabbing coffee and really making it accessible for guys, because guys don't really like to go into a clinic that's, you know, four walls and, and open up and talk to a complete stranger.

And, and so I, Do all these things and in the way that I hope encourages guys to come in and start sharing it. And the reason it's important is a because it it heals me in my mental health journey. But also if we look at data, you know, from a [00:05:00] mental health. a lens I could say, you know, in Australia, I think it's 7.

6 deaths by suicide every day. So there's nine by day in Australia. So 7. 6 are male. and I think though, like, so it's about 75, 80 percent are male. I think the statistics are very similar in Europe and in the U S as well in terms of the percentage. but also extending that to family and domestic violence data in Australia.

I think the research indicates that, you know, Something like 90 percent of victims of family domestic violence report that the male was a perpetrator. So what that tells me both those sets of data is that males do struggle to talk about stuff and they might wait until it's too late to talk about things when they've already become the volcano and blown up and, and maybe done some violence or hurt themselves or whatever.

And, and then often it's too late. And so I want to kind of bring that data back and make it more normal for guys to actually access a mental health service or disability service, which is also the work that I do too. just because I know from personal [00:06:00] pain and, and my history of how hard it was. Um, but also I know how easy it gets the more and more you talk about it as well.

Absolutely. I love that you have catered the way that you work with men to truly what they need, because when we look at the research on testosterone and adrenaline, and when you start talking about things that have happened to you, that the surge happens, right? Like they're like, and you feel it. They need to be moving.

you know, like not to be, they men, but like we all do, but ultimately men especially because their bodies take longer to process the testosterone and the adrenaline if we're not creating the space to do it in safe ways. So you are going, Hey, I know how you work. Let's move. Let's walk. Let's, you know, have a coffee together.

Let's do something. So you're not in a confined space that will add to the anxiety you already feel. And it's side by side as well. So we're not eyeballing each other from across the room. We're side by side, whether it's in the car, whether it's on the footpath or [00:07:00] on the beach, wherever it is. And so it's kind of, it removes those awkward, You know, moments where, where do I put my eyes?

What do I do with my face? You know, what do I do with my body? Because we're just going side by side. And that also, I guess, takes away the power or the, the power dynamics in the therapy rooms of like, me being the therapist and them being the client. So I like to look at more of, um, We're just two guys having a chat and then whatever comes from it comes from it, but we don't have to call it therapy.

We don't have to call it coaching or counseling or whatever. Just two blokes having a chat and the guys really draw into that. They love that because it just, as I said before, de stigmatizes this notion of what it means to be in therapy. Yes, definitely. Now we've kind of started getting into the trees of it.

Let's look at the forest. I'm going to ask a question that I don't even have the answer to this. And I want to see as, a male, what comes up for you, who has it served that men have struggled with mental health and emotional health and had to suck it up, be strong and move on. Does [00:08:00] that question make sense?

I'm going to say no. Like what? Rephrase the question. Yeah. I'd like to hear this again. I believe that certain ways things quote work in our world. serve someone, serve something. And that's why they've stayed that way. And I'm just wondering when it comes to men having these. safe space to open up, to have their emotional and mental health, come to the forefront because it's always playing along.

Like you said, there's the anger, there's the aggression, there's the addiction. It comes up. Who has it served around the world that, men had to be the tough, suck it up, move forward, species, I guess we'll say. Yeah. It's interesting you brought this up because I don't usually talk on patriarchy.

it's not something that I do usually talk about, but I was talking about it. In a podcast earlier today, and I think it kind of links in with that. So I often talk about the social constructs of what it means to be a boy or a man. So when we're born, our kids, they're usually, we [00:09:00] have a pink t shirt for our daughters and a blue t shirt for our boys.

And there's not much other choices either, like the pink one's got princesses on it and unicorns. The blue ones might have like, I don't know. Army trucks on it or something like masculine. So from birth, it's where we're constructed to be and feel and act in a certain way. And for me, that was the case in the eighties, growing up in the Northern suburbs of a place called Adelaide.

It was the, to be a boy was to be a man, to be tough, to suck it up, you know, don't talk about emotions and so forth. And, and then on this podcast this morning, talking about patriarchy, it had me thinking about. The way society is structured. And so a patriarchal society is one where the men are leaders.

Men are providers. They're the caregivers and the women generally, historically, if we're going to separate gender roles, stay at home and nurture and look after the family unit as well. And so, Perhaps maybe this is an extension of patriarchy and to enable guys to just bury their [00:10:00] emotions deep down within so that they can still provide, they can still go to work, the economy can still tick over.

So I guess you've got a bit of capitalism coming through there as well. And the world doesn't stop because apparently, according to patriarchy, they need men to do all these roles as well. And so maybe it's an extension of that. And, and the social constructs of the way that society. accepts that as, as being the norm or being the way that we should work in society.

And so from day one, as I said, we start putting our children into boxes of what we think will fit in society as they get older and older and older, I guess, getting towards a way where the, girls become, you know, women and then. They become mothers, give birth and, and all that type of stuff. So really good question.

I'm glad you repeated. Thanks so much for repeating it. 'cause it, it gave me that moment to think of patriarchy and talk about it. It's not something I usually do. but it's something that we certainly learn about, you know, as I was becoming a social worker in uni and, and thinking [00:11:00] about, you know, all the different theories and feminism, for example, and how that comes up and, the way that.

You know, gender roles are a play out in the household from a parenting perspective, from a providing perspective, even on that same podcast this morning was talking about new age dads and dads wanting to be stay at home dads and allow their wives or their, their birth partners to go back to work and have their careers, but also, you know, be at home with the kids, nurturing, getting into that more, I guess, authentic or vulnerable, or even feminine side as well, the nurturing side, which for so long, for so many generations, boys have And men have been taught not to engage with because you're, you're meant to be out there working hard and providing for the family.

So, yeah, good question, but great answer. I, you know, cause again, I didn't come into it with like, I kind of already know. No, I really thought, how did, how did we get here? And how have we stayed here? Because it has served in some. form or fashion for us to stay here. Now it's not working anymore. Coming from [00:12:00] America and seeing the gun violence rate in schools and knowing what gender is primarily in charge of that, right?

I think, okay, well, this is not working. but it's important for us to kind of ask these types of questions. Why is it still here? How was it created? Who is it serving? And the patriarchy is something that we need to think about. Yeah. I mean, that also, you brought up capitalism. If we think about the industrial revolution and how that impacted women, we know how it impacted men, right?

Jobs and here and this, but for women, it became high society to be frail and skinny. That was the time where the woman went from, you know, you got some meat on your bones and you can help work to free all I'm skinny because it looked good for the man to have a woman like that and show I have so much money.

She doesn't even have to work. Look, she faints when she tries to do anything right. So from a sociologist standpoint, it's like, That's why that type of body type started to happen and that, you know, and how have, have we [00:13:00] grown from that and have we not? so all of that, I think it's fascinating. So let's get in now to men's mental health and emotional health.

The men who are listening are those who care about the men in their lives. Yes. I did just push that dagger in a little bit. I know you care about the men in your life and whoever you are. What do we start to do to change? the course, the direction we're going when it comes to men being able to open up about their mental health or even be aware.

Maybe we start with awareness. How do we start to change that? discussions exactly like this, highlighting men's mental health as a, as a topic for discussion. whenever I talk about men's mental health and you often think about people who niche down in certain areas that they want to talk about mental health or women's health, children's health, men's health is something that doesn't get really a highlight on.

And I think part of that, and a part of a lot of the reason why a lot of guys don't want to. Come into this space and talk about this stuff is that fear of, [00:14:00] because I guess if we're thinking about patriarchy, for example, men are the privileged ones. You know, I'm, I'm white, middle classed, I'm a social worker.

I have access to good healthcare, good, you know, education, and I live in a very safe space. So technically on paper, I am the privileged white guy. That shouldn't be giving voice to topics, but at the same time, I'm in a position where I can talk about men's mental health and men's health because it's not something that men are comfortable doing because I think a lot feel like they're going to be shot down and say, well, you don't, you don't deserve to have a voice because you already have the voice, if that makes sense.

That's a bit of social work coming out of me. But, but I think that's a starting point is recognizing that this is a topic that we should be having a discussion about on all sorts of platforms, whether it's a podcast, whether it's TV, whether it's radio, or whether it's in your social circles as well.

And, and also recognizing that we can do it differently to what we've done historically. So historically guys, [00:15:00] if they do need to chat, would go to the pub, have a few beers. Get on the gas, might get drunk and kind of dust it off. That was their way of processing stuff that doesn't really work anymore. I think a lot of guys are starting to wake up to the fact that alcohol is a depressant.

And this was exactly my case. You know, the last few years for 25 years, I used alcohol as a way to suppress my emotions, to numb everything, to feel normal. But over the last, say 12 months, I've recognized that yes, it's a depressant. I'm a therapist, so I should know better. And in fact, I tell my clients that you shouldn't be drinking as much alcohol, but I was doing the opposite, but it really needed to come from within and go, you know, I needed to look at myself and going, this is not serving me anymore.

I need to find different ways to be able to process the stuff that comes up for me. And so. Giving alcohol away was one big thing for me or going into therapy, you know, at 28 was a big thing for me starting to almost let the guard down and go, you know what, I'm not this strong [00:16:00] man that society paints me as, or even, The strong man that I've painted myself as by wearing this mask of mental health really well and really tightly.

I'm actually someone who's softer, who, who wants to be vulnerable, who wants to be authentic, who wants to be heard and listened to. And I want to cry. I want to share all that stuff. And there's so many guys who want to do that stuff. So I guess it's, yeah, it's first, it's having these discussions, but then second, recognizing that we can go a different way.

We don't have to stay on the well trodden path of generations before us. Briar. and then the last one is, is guess is planting seeds. So we're, we're having these discussions and we're, we're, we're encouraging guys to, get emotional or to think differently or to change behaviors. But the last one is certainly planting seeds and most people that ring my clinic are women.

And they're ringing for their husband or their boyfriend or their father or their son or their brother, or just a guy that they know. And so. [00:17:00] the most common questions I get asked is Simon, how do I get him into therapy? And I say, well, you can't, you've got to plant seeds. And so put on a podcast about men's mental health or put on a TV show about men's mental health or throw a book in front of him and say, Oh, I've read this book.

It was really cool. It's about a guy sharing his story or something like that. And I think. Guys get a lot of encouragement from that. They see other guys doing it. We're a bit like sheep, and so when we see other people doing it, we kind of gravitate that way and think, oh, if he's doing it and he's okay, like maybe I can do the same as well.

So planting seeds is the best way. Encouraging conversations around mental health. Challenging things like alcohol consumption or misuse or drugs or addiction, any other addiction as well. And also being ready, I guess, for what's going to come back. It's saying, you know, we have a day in Australia called R U OK?

Day every October. I like to say every day is an R U OK? Day. But if you are asking R U OK? to this, this guy in the world, maybe if they say that they're not OK, Yeah, just knowing what you're going to do next, which is a very tricky thing to do. [00:18:00] And I'm not saying to anybody, become an instant therapist.

It might be just holding space, being quiet, not offering a fix, just letting them share. And then if you can help, great. But if you can't help. Yeah. Just, just diverting to someone who can, whether it's a GP, a therapist, if it's a coach or whoever it is, a teacher, if they're at school, someone who is trained to help if you're maybe in above your head in a mental health discussion.

You gave so many good nuggets of wisdom. I hope people will rewind and write those down. You're right about the planting seeds. Cause I was going to ask you, okay, what if it's your friend or your family member or your partner? And you're like, how do I give them support? And the planting seeds is excellent.

Do you have some right off the top of your head? A book, a podcast, obviously this episode, but, other ones, that people can start to kind of watch or listen to maybe even influencers that people can go, okay, I'm going to send him this little reel. I'm going [00:19:00] to do this and then just plant those seeds.

What do you usually recommend? Yeah. And I think Tony Robbins, Tony Robbins is great in the space. Everyone knows who Tony Robbins is. And if you don't know him by name, you would probably know him by face as well. So one of his. Affirmations that I love, you know, for myself is, is that change happens when the pain of staying the same is greater than the pain of change.

So it's that light bulb moment recognizing, you know what, I can't drink anymore or I can't bottle it up anymore. So he's often a great one because he's so accessible with his content. But there's another one, a book, I'm not sure if I'm allowed to swear, but it's The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Um, that's by I think it's Mark Manson is a fantastic book around managing your anxiety and, and it's, it's a very easy read.

It's easy to read. You read it within a couple of weeks. If, and I'm a slow reader, so that's like saying something, but it is a great way of just recognizing. Who cares what other people think? All that matters in the world is, is how we're processing it, how we're looking at the world as well. that [00:20:00] book's available pretty much worldwide, both in, in hard copy.

I think it's also probably an audio book as well. And then as a second backup to that, it's like a journal that you can do as well, where you can go through some exercises on just not giving an F, you know, and, and, and just living life the way that you want to. And, and I think. those tools, so Mark Manson and Tony Robbins would be a great place to start, but yeah, this podcast, the Mindful Men podcast, which is my podcast, there's so much around and it's free.

It's easily accessible. I put my podcast on when I'm walking around the block, or going to the gym or going for a drive or whatever. so you can do it. Like I do, and nobody has to know what you're listening to, you know, you can get into the self help stuff and, and learn a lot about yourself in the process.

we really love the subtle art of not giving a, uh, in this house. In fact, I was reading, I had to read chapter eight to have a discussion with my husband and like, he's like, I need to read chapter eight. And then we need to talk it out. And it was really good. It was, you [00:21:00] will find if you're in a relationship where mental health or emotional health are, you know, in the theme and I'm a therapist, my husband's entrepreneur, we both have our own struggles.

It was such a wonderful tool for discussion. By reading a chapter together and then being like, what do you think? Well, what do you think? How do you find this playing out in your life? Okay. Well, how do you find you play it? Absolutely wonderful. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I can support that. And definitely listening to your podcast as well.

Before we wrap up, I want to do one last thing. Let's say somebody is listening and they're like, okay, this is like the 20th sign from the universe. This week alone that I need to go and get support, but I don't know who to talk to. How do you talk with men about finding the right person for them?

Cause I know I would talk about it, but I want to hear from you. How do you help them understand the [00:22:00] process of finding the right fit? Yeah, this is a great question because There's different avenues you can take depending on what your situation is. So the first one is if you're, maybe you've just got a friend or a family member who's just got a really good head on their shoulders, who's someone who's okay to talk about this deepest, darkest stuff, start there and just start telling the story.

Wherever the story is, people think they need to have it all sorted out before they tell it. Tell it as it's happening in your head, and go from there. And if, if they, that can have some of those have a good response, so they might be really supportive and you get a lot of comfort out of that, or it might not work so well as well.

And you think, Oh, what have I just done? I've just opened up a can of worms, but that's actually good. Once we've got the can, the lid off the can, we can start to process the stuff underneath the next step. I think, um, this is probably applicable worldwide as well. It's just going to see your local doctor and having a good chat with your doctor.

Now, when you're doing this, I always say, before you go to see your doctor, just suss them out to see if they're like to hear about mental health if [00:23:00] they're mental health practitioners. So I've got two doctors, right? I've got a family doctor and then I've got a mental health doctor. So when I've got a mental health situation, I'll go speak to my mental health GP.

When I've just got the general family stuff, like the kids being sick and now I'm sick, and then the sickness never ends, that's the other doctor as well. So that's really important because when I go see my family doctor about my mental health, I don't feel like I get the level of care. That I do for my mental health one.

And the reason I know that one's a mental health one and one's a family doctor, I just went to the website for my practice and I looked at all the doctors and they say, Oh, I'm Joe blogs. And I like to talk about men's health or men's mental health. And I'm Joe blogs. I like to talk about family health.

So that's really easy way to do it, to find. A mental health, interested doctor, and then from there, depending on where you are in the world, they can navigate you through whether it's a public or private health system around accessing therapy. So in Australia, for example, we've got the mental health care plans, which is subsidized mental health care.[00:24:00] 

to a psychologist counselor or mental health social worker, and then they can make a referral to one of those practitioners. And so they can then handball you over to one of them. And then you continue therapy journey through that kind of process. Outside of that, you might have private health insurance, so you might have a private health provider that you can access therapies through that.

Yeah. You don't need to go through your GP for that, but it's always good to start with a GP because they also might talk about things like medication or just other general self care things like how you're eating, how you're sleeping, are you drinking too much or taking drugs, are you exercising, are you getting enough vitamin D, all the basic self care stuff.

So start with your family and friend, then progress maybe to your GP. And then that might get you. Progress to a therapist. Now, the therapist as well, it's also relevant to, to look them up on their website or give them a call and say, Hey, I've got this kind of situation. Are you experienced in that? So an example of that, so I live with obsessive compulsive disorder and a few years ago I wanted to find a therapist who specialised in [00:25:00] OCD.

Finding them are very hard in Australia and so I had to look at different websites from a whole different range of practitioners and And I even had to call a few practicers because even though on the website it says they do a OCD, I really wanted to know how experienced they were with OCD. And this is the case for any mental health condition, whether it's depression, anxiety, whether it's PTSD, you really want to know how skilled is your therapist in that certain area that you're interested in dealing with.

Because if you go to a generalist one, yes, they might have the book smarts or they might know of the condition, But they're not really going to provide you with the best, most accurate advice then and there when you really need it. So for me, having someone who is really specialized in OCD, I can go straight into it.

I knew that they were skilled. I knew they had the tools and I can get back into my, you know, my homework afterwards really quickly. Whereas I've been to generalist ones, you kind of fluff around and they kind of touch on things, but maybe there's the tools that they aren't appropriate for [00:26:00] your specific need.

and so That's the easiest way to find a therapist, but then just noticing and the same with your GP, noticing it might take you a few goes to find the right fit because then personality comes into it. I might sit down with you and we just don't click or you might sit down with me and we just don't click.

And it's not because we're terrible therapists. It might just be that. We're just different people and, and, and, but then the next person in the next room might be a better fit. And so just recognizing that it might take you a few therapists to get the right fit, but then once you find them, off you go.

You're, you're running and you're, you're doing well, you're talking about stuff and then all of a sudden you're unpacking 30, 40 years of trauma or whatever you're doing. And you're moving forward, you're turning that pain into purpose and starting to thrive instead of just survive. Yeah. And I find often people, male or female, will say, Oh, but I don't like having to go to each person telling the story again, but there's something healing about telling stories.

So if you can remove the stigma around every time I tell the story, you know, [00:27:00] into each time I tell the story, I'm learning new things from the story. Even if the person's not the right fit, like I'm realizing, Oh, I keep bringing up this particular point more than another point. Use that as your own process of healing as you do the hunt.

And I like that you pointed out that really ask the questions about their specifics that they're trained in. All of us throughout the world who are real licensed therapists who went to university or this have to do continuing education credits. Ask them what they do their continued education on. What are the topics you tend to do?

Is it anxiety based? Or is it more depression based? Is it more trauma based? Or is it more marriage and family? Right? Exactly like you're pointing out. Just find out more about them before you even have to start to tell the story. Right? And then you were like, Oh, okay. I already know this is going to be a good fit.

Well, Simon, this has been wonderful and I know that people are going to want to connect with you. They're going to want to find your podcast and ask you questions. What's the [00:28:00] best way for them to find you? Yeah. So just the website is probably the easiest way. So it's www. mindful men. com. au. And that links to the podcast.

It also links to my social media. So I'm all over all the socials as well. but if you had there, and if you're in Australia and you're, and you're listening to this and you want to do some work with me, that's got my contact details there, but outside of Australia, yeah, just the social media, send me a DM wherever, and we can have this chat.

And I love to talk about this content. And, and again, thank you for having me on the show. I've really enjoyed coming on and talking about men's mental health. It's really important and, um, appreciate you for, for reaching out and inviting me on. Of course. Thank you. All of the links will be in the show notes.

You'll be able to find this podcast and this website and where you can find them on social media. Simon, this has been wonderful, and I know that it's answering a lot of questions to partners and friends and family members out there who've wondered and even those who are secretly inside going, okay, maybe it's time for me to go get that support.

So I am so, so grateful for your time in this space. And dear listener, here's [00:29:00] to finding our balance code.