The Adventures of the Apostles: A Tale of Three Jameses!

James the Greater. James the Lesser. James the brother of Jesus. 

Three stories. Three mysteries. Three Jameses. 

Join Jay, Tay, and Tray as we uncover more of the apostolic legacies after the biblical narrative. 

Also, we discuss Taylor's keto-tastic weight loss journey, and some harsh words he has for the Chump Nation if he doesn't get the fan mail encouragement he needs to stay on track. 

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IG: churchhistory4chumps

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Chapters

• 0:00 Banter Banter Banter
• 12:55 Okay, Let's Get Serious

Transcript

Hey everybody, this is Welcome to Church History for Chumps. My name is John,
Bibbidi Bobbidi, give me the Zopbidi Simon. I'm here with Taylor Dwight. Get out of
my nook, Treadway, and Thomas Hardcore Parkour -Duel.
Hey. well. Hey, so we had to record that three times because the first reaction to
those nicknames was really good. And then we're like time and you're so creative.
And then the Thomas's Mike died. Yeah. So Bippity Boppity,
give me the zoppity is that is that Michael Scott pretending to be a gang No,
it was a black phrases from Darrell, but Darrell gives him like Oh,
this is the art reel. I guess that's kind of what I was thinking. Dinkin Flicka,
what is it? Go and mock five in the shoot when they do.
We're slicking and shake of all time. Oh, my gosh, dude. Oh, man, I love that.
So Good. All right, boys. How are we doing tonight? What's what's what's new? What
is new? Yeah. Oh, today was your day off, man. How was your day off?
It was good. I spent some time with the fam. It's a Mexican food. And then,
you know what? I went and started digging the grave for one of my childhood today.
Oh, wow. Is this a preparation thing or is yeah, he's gonna get put down on
Wednesday. So, oh, dude, I'm so sorry. His name is Argos and named after Odysseus's
faithful dog. I love that. It's awesome. So how's the fam?
How's the fam feeling? Oh, it'll be sad when he when he gets put Yeah,
but we're all we all know he needs it. He's like really his quality of life is
pretty pretty much gone Yeah, yeah, dude, that's such a bummer because I I don't
know if I I remember I told you this but my my me and Annie's dog is Also on
his last paw as it were Who knows maybe Toby and Argos will link up on the other
side. Dude. Yeah, they're gonna they're gonna slide down that rainbow bridge together.
You guys ever think about like the theology of pets? Oh,
dude, I remember, I remember our friend Rod going in on this one time,
just like mocking people talking about their dogs in the rainbow bridge.
No, I'm not talking about that. Like what I'm talking about. Like how it relates to
mankind's Dominion and like dogs get to sort of like rise above the other animals
and participate in Dominion with humans. I Don't know if I would go that far.
There's like a higher calling. I don't consult my dog about really anything He's
just he's my servant. He's like my sentimental servant exactly But he's your
sentimental servant as you exert Dominion over creation. I got it.
Tommy's tracking with me. My language did. I mean, here's the thing. Like I so get
even deeper with it and I'm on track because what do we do? We took wolves, the
actual enemies of humans and we made them into these fluffy little animals that we
stuff into our purses and take on airplanes. And that's and that's Dominion that's
the big dog. Yeah, that's I like that me and Me and the other reformed homies go
to lunch a lot at work But because we're all like dieting and watching what we eat
We have to go to the grocery store and just buy like healthy foods But we'll get
like a whole rotisserie chicken And one of the guys was like isn't it kind of
messed up that a chicken died just to like feed us and Reformed homies are like
ripping this thing apart. No, the Lord made this. This chicken served a greater
purpose than most other chickens. They injected him with salt while he was living
for us. Yeah, I was going to say this chicken, I don't know,
served the work of the Lord. It fueled us. They stuffed that chicken in a cage the
size of a shoebox and injected it full of the ooze from the teenage mutant Ninja
Turtles. You don't know that. I just love the fact that that the Baptist staffers
at the seminary are all on a diet together.
I just like picture you guys like outside of a sprouts like all crouched around one
I'm just picking at it real meagrely. This is Baptist with some big boys, some big
boys. And we got to not be big. Dude, fun, fun thing I can share success.
I, I might be, I might be out of my triple XL's, dude. They're getting too big.
Wow. Nice, dude. That's real. That's awesome. That, you know, that country song like,
"Oh, boy, mama, he's a double XL." That's you, dude. You're double X.
I did watch some of the video of your recent sermon, and I haven't seen you in
person in probably about two years, and you definitely looked like you were trimming
it down. Thanks. Yeah. Matter of fact, Taylor was saying this right before we hit
record. If He doesn't get any fan mail from people in the chump nation encouraging
him to stay on his diet. He's gonna crush four Ben and Jerry's pints and record it
and put it on the Instagram. - No, mine's more like, you wanna know actual big boy
habits. Like actual big boy habits, 'cause a lot of people are like, I don't eat
that much, I skip breakfast and then like for lunch they rip like fast food that's
like gonna eat 2000 calories right equal 2000 calories and then on the way home
from work you you You guys know what like like the the drive fry is
An extra
- Yes, yes, with the wife's like, the wife's like, "Hey,
can you stop and pick up dinner?" - I've done the drive -fry, I've done that.
- I ain't gonna share this with nobody.
- Taylor, we had a buddy and I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna dox this man. I don't
think there'd be any way of it getting back to him. But he told a story about
like the chubbiest thing he ever did, which was on the way back from the grocery
store. He needed to like chow down on something on the way home, but he didn't
have any like snacks that he'd gotten. So he rips open a frozen box of like
mozzarella sticks and just starts chowing.
That's like nasty big It's like a poverty obesity. Classy and a classy big boy
stops at Sonic for happy hour. This man was desperate.
[LAUGHTER] Oh,
man. So many of our listeners are looking at their radio in disgust right now.
[LAUGHTER] And what am I listening to? That's bad. Oh,
man, dude.
Oh, jeez. I'm trying to think if I had any, like, shameful big boy moments like
that. I really don't think I did. Yeah. When I was single. Remember how I lived
down the street from a little Caesars? Johnson. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then I'd be
known for just killing a hot and ready by myself for dinner. But I feel like for
single Bachelors, that's not like uncommon. That's no big deal to even drop a
comment. If you've ever killed a hot and ready by yourself for dinner. Oh, when I
first moved out for my parents,
we I lived right by a jack in the box. And dude, I would I would kill those
tacos in the middle of the night. You know, those ones were like the paper blends
into the into the taco shell a little bit. You can't tell which is which. Yeah,
which you just you just go to town on all of it. Jack in the box tacos, man.
Yeah. No, I do. I think I think you're I think you're your ambition is starting to
motivate me. I think we hit we hit July 1st. Recently, it's like the halfway
through the year. I think I'm going to try to recalibrate some of my goals. I've
got some got to get my get my ish together goals. I'm trying to set for myself.
I'm not going to go keto, but I'm I need to I need to start taking some dude,
you're not even fat. Here's the things why I tell people they're not even fat. They
just want to like shed some pounds. If you just don't change any habits and do
keto for six weeks, make sure you're eating in a deficit. You'll lose all of your
fat and then you can go back to your habits and then like once a year, you'll
just have to do keto for six weeks. Yeah, but you're just going to gradually gain
back all your weight as soon as you get off of keto, right? No, I mean, yeah, but
it's gonna take a year or so. I'm trying to help you, man. Yeah, I mean,
it's not just about numbers, though, man. I'm trying to reduce the risk of heart
disease. I'm trying to get more fiber in my diet, all that all that brainy, dorky
stuff.
So I don't know. I also want to get into Muay Thai. Me and my wife are like
very, very close to joining a Muay Thai gym by our house. And I'm very psyched
about that, because listen, I did martial arts for like 16 years. Yeah. And it's
it's time to get back on the back, back on the on the dragon, as they say. So
what? Do you want to tell that on the Instagram story?
Get back on the dragon, back on the dragon.
So I'm glad that We can basically be slightly racist, and it bothers no one.
It only bothers John inside. That was him right there. I know,
it is bothering him right now. I'm going to pull up our China analytics and see
how we're doing over in the east. That's why we had Malta, because they're all on
VPNs in China, and And then to Malta, I'm not sure if we have it.
Oh my gosh, dude. We don't have any Chinese listeners. We have Vietnam Taiwan.
All right. Well, that says something, you know, wow, you're saying that our taiwanese
listeners are chinese That's the exact opposite of what I'm saying Okay,
you be careful man Uh guys, what do you guys think our our top Five countries are
you say USA easy
England England is three
Germany no Germans dropped Germany dropped Canada.
Well good. Bye. All right, and then we got two that are closely related
Egypt. No. Ethiopia. All the cops. No.
Come on. It's in English -speaking countries. Oh. Ah. Brazil.
Right. This game's terrible. Ireland and Scotland. Australia and New Zealand.
Wales. No. Not. No. I've got some good. I think we have some listeners out there.
I've got listeners and friends in South Africa, Australia, none in New Zealand,
actually. Oh, dude, that's awesome. Because I think some of our biggest cities are
like Sydney and Cape Town. Yeah. So shout out to them. Look at that. Shout out,
Colin and the Greens and the Swansons. Nice. All right. All right,
we'll tell you, we should dive in. Yeah, listen, we we got to keep track and
through what happened to the Apostles. We want to do that.
That was our that was the theme song for this sub series. That was what it was
that. That was a really, really small didgeridoo.
OK. All right. Trucks in solidarity with our Australian brothers. Thank you,
Australia. Did you get out to Australia? Yeah, so last time do you guys remember
who we covered Simon the zealot and Matthew? Previously formerly known as Levi the
author formerly known as Levi And we we actually we we found some uncomfortable
truths some challenges like maybe The fact that he's called Simon the zealot didn't
mean that he was part of some rogue fringe radical assassination group.
Yeah, he wasn't part of like proto Hezbollah or something. I guess it'd be like
proto Masad, probably. Yeah, he might have been, but we don't know.
Yeah, we don't know. We don't know for sure. That is kind of hilarious. Like,
imagine if you were like known as like Taylor the hothead Because of your podcast
antics, but then a thousand years from now, they're like, oh, it's cuz he was part
of the hot head organization the neo -nazi regime That's crazy Man,
that's basically that's what that could have been what could have been. We don't
know. Yeah, basically we are We're challenging long -standing church tradition trying
to have some good historicity or trying to parse through all these different accounts
and figure out what actually happened to the apostles. Did they all die gruesome and
horrific martyr deaths, which we've all been taught in Sunday School and Youth Group
and from the pulpit that all of the apostles died except for one? Or maybe they
died old and in the arms of their wives, which Matthew,
as we learned last time, it's very likely that Matthew died when he was old,
just as likely as the verdict.
So if you missed that episode, go back and listen to it. I think it was really
good. The host was the host was amazing. Yes, the weak spot, but OK.
Yes. OK, so we're pulling we're pulling from Sean McDowell's research, the second
edition of his work, The Fate of the Apostles. And essentially, he did an immense
amount of research for this project, published it 10 years ago and then did more
research and just recently republished it. So guys, this week,
we're actually going to get through three apostles. All right. Okay. Could we get a
trace?
Well, no, because remember the rules I set? How do we pick the apostles? Taylor
picks the apostles.
It's completely random with no order subject to my whims and impulses. So guess
we're going to start with James.
We're going to start with James. All right, you're supposed to say which James I
don't think Judas was martyred
martyred himself
You're supposed to say which James which James
Which just sign of Zebedee. All right. All right. Oh brother of John. All right
Yeah, so what do we know about him boys? Brother of John and Fisherman and son of
thunder and and author. No,
you're trying to trick me. He was not the author of James. Yeah. Yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah. So James, formerly known as Fisherman,
James is. So is The Pokemon game
It's got three Magikarp's Just a walk in the park So his eldest brother here.
He's the eldest brother to John because his name gets listed first So we think that
that's why he's the oldest. Okay. Now James was in the inner circle my my guys.
He was at the Mount of Olives when Jesus said a bunch of very hard things.
James saw Jairus's daughter get raised from the dead. And James was one of three
who witnessed the transfiguration.
So he was in the inner circle. But once again, Scripture records little about him.
And it's like almost as if the biblical authors didn't care to highlight anybody,
but Jesus,
the nerve, am I right?
I was about to say "aww" and then you said "but Jesus" and I was like, okay, hold
on. So we're going to look at some of the claims regarding the death of James.
So you see B .S. we've referenced quite a bit because he was essentially the best
church historian on this era that we have been covering. So in his second
ecclesiastical histories, which is written, you know, around 313. So early 4th
century, you see this is writing. He wrote this on James. This is chapter 9.
Now at about that time, It is clear that he means the time of Claudius. Herod the
king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church, and he killed James,
the brother of John, with the sword. And concerning this, James, Clement, so this is
Eusebius quoting a lost work of Clement, in the seventh book of his hypopotoposses
relates a story, which is worth the mention, telling it as he received it from
those who had lived before him. He says that the one who led James to the judgment
seat when he saw him bearing his testimony was moved and confessed that he himself
also a Christian. So we've got Eusebius quoting Clement saying that the guy who led
James to be martyred repented and was led to be a Christian.
I'm gonna continue reading. They were both therefore, he says, led a way together
and on the way he begged James to forgive him. And after considering a little,
said, "Peace be with you," and kissed him. And thus, they were both beheaded at the
same time. And then, as the divine scripture says, "Herod upon the death of James
seeing that the deed pleased the Jews, attacked Peter also, committed into prison,
and would have slamed him if he had not, by the divine appearance of an angel who
came to him by night, been wonderfully released from his bonds and thus liberated
for the service of the gospel. Such was the providence of God in respect to Peter.
So we're not going to get into Peter yet. We'll revisit that. But that's Eusebius
quoting Clement on James in the apocryphal work,
the apostolic history of the Abdias with the pseudo Abdias. I have you guys heard
of this source before? Never. I feel like you're breaking. No, I wish I was.
You know, what's crazy about this rabbit hole? This is this podcast is actually very
good for for my own learning because you just there are so many sources out there.
And I feel like every time I read an author, I learn about another source that I
didn't know existed. So that's one thing I like about this podcast, too, is I think
that we're all really willing to just use stuff we find, you know, and just be
like, here's what I found. And I think But we end up exposing stuff that others
overlook because of that. Totally. Yeah, it's good. So the pseudo Abdias tells a
story of James and his interaction with two pagan magicians who eventually confess
Christ. This was sixth or seventh century is the earliest possible date. And I even
saw all the way up to 10th century. Yikes. So.
And remember, Sean McDowell is using this idea of living memory.
So essentially the sources that are writing things within the range of somebody that
would have known somebody that knew the apostles.
So living memory ends second century. Sure. So there there are some random claims
that James went to India
and James is actually the patron saint of do you guys know what country?
Well, I'll be in you nope Armenia Armenia is actually what I meant to say but oh
No
Espana oh Oh, I did know that it's the Camino de Santiago.
Yes. So he's the patron saint for Spain for some reason. Tradition claims he went
to Spain and then came back quickly. But the earliest written record. Not a topist
guy. Right. Dude, who is a topist person?
Why these plates so small? I'll take in Jera over And anyway,
earliest written record for that one is seventh century. And OK, yes, before
listeners send me anthrax or something. Yes, we we know that the martyrdom of James
is in the Bible. OK,
so we have to get that we're going to get there quicker rather than later. But his
martyrdom is brief in the Bible. This is actually acts twelve one and two from the
English standard version. Are you guys ESV guys? Thomas has to be, right? Trying to
cut back to what? You're certainly not using the CSB.
I use the HCSB actually. Do you really? Yeah. You guys started here first, Tommy,
the Presbyterians using the Baptist Bible. I actually don't have any beef with the
HCSB. I think I found myself using it. I really enjoyed it.
ESV I've kind of soured on. I'll never go back to the nasty NASB though. One of
our professors actually helped translate the HCSB. There's this hilarious cross.
So basically the ESV is like crossways translation and there's this hilarious old ESV
advertisement where it's just like all it as is like trusted in like the ESV font,
and like almost everybody on the page is not trusted by anybody anymore. It's really
uncomfortable to look at, but anyway, carry on. So Acts 12,
one and two. About that time, Herod, the king laid violent hands on some who
belonged to the church. He killed James, the brother of John, with the sword. And
when he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded to arrest Peter also. So the
question is why, Luke, did you write so little about one of the apostles being
killed when Stephen gets like pages? Yeah,
a whole whole chapter almost. So this is Me reading from McDowell in the Fate of
the Apostles, this is his response to that. We must remember that Acts is not
strictly a book about the Apostles per se, but about the spread of the Gospel to
the ends of the earth. The title Acts of the Apostles is technically a misnomer.
The Apostles are only included in the narrative insofar as they advance the Gospel
worldwide in fulfillment of the theme of Axe. It may also be surprising that Axe
does not report the deaths of Peter and Paul, but as demonstrated earlier such
reports were not integral to Luke's wider purpose. It may be puzzling why Luke does
not include more about the fate of James, but the brief report indicates why Peter
was arrested, which in turn shows his departure to another place in the shift in
the narrative to the focus on the mission of Saul.
Hmm. Yeah. So the brief account of the death of James fits the pattern of Luke
focusing on details necessary to advance his larger goal. So it sounds like you're
saying that even though the Bible makes it clear that James was martyred,
you're not quite convinced. No. How did you even pull?
You're a little troll. Oh, man. Was it so? Was there another James who got thrown
off the temple? Yes. Oh, my gosh. Spoiler alert. All right. It's just a question.
So are you going to go beyond the apostles then or is this just an apostle series?
It's just an apostle series. Okay. Well, that wasn't a spoiler alert.
Just let me do let me let me do my thing. OK, so just sit there and listen and
provide commentary. So the lack of detail in this actually strengthens the claim is
one of McDowell's arguments, which actually makes sense because if there's no crazy
legends attached to something, it's more reliable. Because remember, it's probably
true. Remember One of the things that made it difficult to know where Simon died is
because everybody had some insane story. Hmm. Hmm. Yeah.
OK.
So essentially the guy who. At Gryppa, King of Gryppa had him killed was.
He was like popular with the Jews. They and some people even thought that his reign
was like messianic Hmm. Hmm. So Josephus in antiquities records admiration for
Agrippa.
Oh, that's interesting. Yes Okay, so Agrippa was supposedly initially tolerant,
but then his acts as late violent hands Targeting James But the fact that he was
executed by the sword seems if that's mild, especially if you listen to last episode
Where we're talking about the horrific things Nero did to Christians. So like right
quick slice Was there a sharp blade? Was there more than one Agrippa?
Yeah, I skipped that part in my notes because there's There's there's Harrod Agrippa,
grandson of Harrod the Great. You see Paul interacting within Agrippa, who like
almost converts later and then doesn't and acts.
I don't know who says to Paul. He says something like, did you think you could get
me to convert like that fast?
It it might That might be the same Agrippa. OK. Yeah.
Yeah. So anyway, he's grandson of Herod.
So Agrippa living as a faithful Jew may have seen James as leading Jerusalem astray
in to heresy. So somebody's typing away over there.
Agrippa's motives were likely political and religious. Right. So.
Every time we come to the end of the story time for the apostles, we make the
verdict and we've kind of been looking at did they do mission work and or were
they martyred? Well, I'm not about to a challenge the authority of scripture. So
yes, he was martyred and he was probably the first martyr of the apostles.
But As far as like going to Spain, you know, it's interesting. McDowell doesn't in
this chapter giving a verdict on mission work. So we get to make our verdict. I'm
going to say no, none of the no early source gives James any sort of mission work.
And he died so early. Yeah, that's really interesting. Because I feel like it is
like the Catholic Church is very reconvinced that James went to Spain because that's
their apostolic like claim to fame is James. The name of the game.
So that's that's interesting. But I I'm also just fascinated by that.
Also, to a little bit of digging, there are two Herod Agrippa's Herod Agrippa the
first Herod Agrippa the second. The First is the one that killed James and
imprisoned Peter. The second is the one who heard Paul's defense before Festus in
acts 25 and 26. Dude, that's what we heard you type in a way on.
That's what I do, man. Call me Jamie, dude. All right, Jamie knocking it out of
the park. Okay. All right. Next up, boys. Can you guess Who's next?
What's your boss? Who's next, Thomas? Nope. James, gosh,
guys, he was so mad earlier because he was getting back to talk about it. So yeah,
we have James, son of Alpheus. What do you guys know about him? Actually, nothing.
We I don't think we know really anything about this guy, right? Right. Yeah, got
it. Yeah, pretty much. I remember the chosen gave him a bum leg.
Dang, dude, I like your little chosen tidbits. You're drooling these guys.
Dude, I'm just like, I'm glad you gave him autism. Chosen gave him a bum leg.
Dude, let me say, I love I love this image of James, son of Alpheus and the cloud
of watching the shows in on like DVR. And he's like, come on,
he's like, he's like, he's like, dude, I'm so excited. They're going to take
creative liberties. No one knows anything about my life. I can't wait to see. And
they just see this guy, she's like, oh, James, so obvious.
Oh, come on, man. I was the fastest in my class. There is a very touching scene
that Jesus, where Jesus addresses suffering. This is an extra biblical scene in the
chosen that he has with him, where he addresses suffering and, uh, basically James
in the show, self -fictional, but James asks him, like, can you heal me, Lord?
And Jesus says like, yeah, but I'm asking you to suffer for me. And it's like,
oh, I got goosebumps just thinking about it. It's very bad. Yeah, I was I was
super moved by that. Yeah, I'm going to, yeah.
You know, I go watch John Wick again, Violet's Obsessed Westerner. Yeah,
yeah. Thomas is like, we can make up as many stories we want about church history
and I'll buy it. Don't don't touch Jesus, which is actually fair, Chris. Yeah, you
I tried to make him sound bad, but made him sound very rational. Yeah, I know.
Anyway, moving on. So yeah, we got nothing. We got James the Younger or Little
James. That's basically what the Bible gives us, OK? Yeah. And then extra biblical
information on him is very, very minimal.
He's mentioned a few times in a couple different lists like the Acts of Thomas,
he appears, Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, Book of Common Prayer in the 16th
century, List James as the author of the canonical book of James.
But that is also rejected. Gosh, man, this guy's got to be anything.
I think he might have been of Jesus, honestly, like, I don't I I'm real doubtful
about this guy, honestly. Yeah. So there's no there's no missionary record for him.
Tradition claims that this is the James that went to Spain, which kind of makes
more sense, right?
Like this James is the one that goes to Spain. Oh, because If there's more time
that he could have made it there, like. Yes. Oh, and that actually makes sense as
to why chosen portrayed him the way that they did. Because the James in Spain is
always lame. Wow.
Dang, that was good. Wasn't that good? That was off the top. Oh, yeah, bro.
This is why you're a big to teach me Senpai.
OK, so nice. This is you guys. This is write ups. What's what's our acronym for
the H4C C4 HC? This is for C H C's.
Right up our alley. We've got a bishop of Iria or Iria,
however you want to say it, claimed that a star guided him to the burial spot of
James in the ninth century.
That's that's within living memory, right, Taylor and ever since. Yeah.
All right. That's within the window of living memory ever since James has been
recognized as a patron saint of Spain.
Um, the historian Schmidt who says no, uh,
he suggests that James actually might have stayed in Jerusalem and been stoned, uh,
who accused him of blasphemy. So there is some historical precedent for the stoning
of James in Jerusalem. So Hippolytus on the 12 says,
and James, the son of Alpheus when preaching in Jerusalem was stoned to death by
the Jews and was buried there beside the temple. It's so interesting to think about
like, I mean, that's so authoritative, right?
That's like a quick solid truth claim.
Like, I'm willing to receive it, but if it's not true, it's like, man, how did he
end up Mm -hmm, but then there's two traditions that hold that James was crucified.
So her own Heroni me and Marty ology, but this is 5th century Says that he was
crucified in Persia and then the path Joanie in in the nice entry wrote some
homilies on different saints. And this is where, like, you're like, okay, Sean
McDowell seriously did his research. He's pulling from this guy, Nicetas David,
the
pathologonian, pathologonian. I don't know. It's a crazy word from a homily in the
ninth century. So he doesn't give any historical evidence,
but he basically claims that he was also crucified.
So long story short, if you get to the end,
you get to the conclusion, this is McDowell what he says, "James, son of Alpheus,
engaged in missionary work outside of Jerusalem, very probably true because of just
general evidence for the 12 engaging and missionary work. And then James,
son of Alpheus, gets the same verdict as Simon, as plausible as not. OK.
Yeah. Yes. Yeah, it gets it. It feels so complicated,
right? Because I think the the narrative that all of the apostles,
especially following the Great Commission, scattered throughout the nations,
faithfully proclaimed the gospel and were martyred in some kind of triumphant display.
Like that is a really that's a gung -ho narrative for the church to kind of write.
Oh, yeah. It shows it shows that they were about the mission and they were about
it unto death, but it gets so messy when you look at the actual historical side of
it. And that's the thing. That's why I'm pretty sure all three of us have literally
preached in some capacity, whether it's to like youth group or to the in from the
pulpit, like we have preached that all of them were killed except for John, right?
Yeah. So it's just interesting to sit here and go, wow, maybe it's actually not
true. You guys know what actually McDowell suggests sparks the mission work of the
apostles to leave Jerusalem? Oh, I think it was it pre.
No, I think I know this. It has to do with the the writing on the wall for the
destruction of the temple, right?
Well, MacDowell suggests that it's the execution of James by Agrippa. Right, because
he was like the-- he was the friendly guy. He got along with the Jews there and
the Romans. And when James was killed, that was kind of like, they're stabilizing.
Their diplomatic figure was gone. So they were like, we need to get the heck out
of here. think that's right. Yeah. So they left. Yeah. They they that's when they
spread out. So it is interesting. You know, we've been talking a lot about martyrs,
which is fair. There's a lot of martyrs in church history. And I mean, martyrdom
does kind of inspire people. Yeah. As we've seen.
Okay. So next up, our third apostle. Can you guys guess who it is?
Is it James again?
It's James. It's James. Trace James. Trace James. This is James the brother of
James. Taylor liked. Taylor liked John's Bernard the dog. Wait. Hold up. Has that
released yet? Yes. Yeah. Okay. He liked the Bernard the dog routine so much. I did.
I was inspired. So is this James's brother James now? Yeah, I also gave John Simon
a really easy episode title like James James and James
So it's gonna be three. Yeah. Yes. This is brother of Jesus Okay,
what do we know about him? I love this story. I hope that you think it's true
because I Like it. Don't don't worry. I got it. It's you'll see where I land.
It's not as Poetic as you might hope, but yeah So what do you guys know about
James throw it off the top wasn't a believer until Jesus I sorry,
I'm just chuckling
Yeah, so James the brother of Jesus was not a believer until after
I can't remember what,
where in the New Testament it references this, but at the resurrection, I think Paul
references it maybe in 1 Corinthians, talks about Jesus appearing to a bunch of
different people, and then he mentions James, which I think is his brother,
and then that's it. So, yes. And then we've got First Corinthians nine five.
Do we not have this is Paul writing about exactly what you're talking about? Do we
not have the right to take along a believing wife as do the other apostles and the
brothers of the Lord and Cephas? So James was probably married.
Cool. But he was the cousin of Jesus, right?
Are you just riffing right now? He's trying to bait us. Don't let him Just asking
a question is is Paypist a bad word
Oracle they would not have considered him the brother or whether he'd be like the
brother through Joseph, but not through Mary. Don, perpetual. I need to look up the
doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary, but I am pretty sure that came super
late. Yeah. And which is very, I mean, and it's very possible that Catholic's
retconned James and said, oh, actually, Ox always said he was the cousin. But yeah,
brother of Jesus is a very, it's a Protestant. It's a Protestant dance. I don't
think I know because I'm about to read you to very early sources. Okay. Right now
it's a Protestant stance. You're right. For sure. For sure. Yeah. Maybe it wasn't
always. Yeah. Yes. I'll let you go. So so essentially no biblical writer is directly
reporting on the death of James, right? We don't have it. So what do we got?
We've got something from Josephus and who wants to remind the listeners who Josephus
was.
Early Christian historian. Well, he was Jewish. Oh, Jewish, you're right about that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was in Rome and he was trying to basically tell the story
of the Jews to the Romans to essentially garner some sympathy.
You're like, look, here's our story. We're not all terrible. Stop persecuting us. OK,
so this is going to be long. I'm going to read two long things, but it's just
very, very fascinating. So we can stop at any point if we want to interject.
So this is Josephus in Antiquities. And now Caesar,
upon hearing the death of Festus, sent albinus into Judea as procurator,
but the king deprived Joseph of the High Priesthood, and bestowed the secession to
that dignity on the son Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus. Now the report
goes that this elder Ananus proved a most fortunate man, for he had five sons.
Tom, John Simon. What? We can just hear you clicking away.
Gosh, I'm sorry. All right.
I'll be your last clicking brought about something good, but this one is too.
Just give me time. Click the mute button. Tommy's eating Cheetos and we don't hear
it.
Okay, where was I? Now the report goes that this elder proved a most fortunate man
for he had five sons who had all performed the office of a high priest to God and
he had himself enjoyed that dignity a long time formerly which had never happened to
any other of our high priests but this younger Ananas who as we have told you
already took the high priesthood he was a bold man in his temper and very insolent
this is kind of like where the like dump, dump, dump.
Do you want me to do sound effects for you? Tommy, I'm going to kill him. Oh,
please, please, please. Put your phone away, bro.
So this guy, we've got somebody in charge here who, Josepha says,
bold in his temper and insolent. He says this, he was also of the sect of the
Sadducees that's where we say boo Who are very rigid in judging offenders above all
the rest of the Jews as we have already observed when therefore Ananas was of the
disposition. He thought he now had a proper opportunity to exercise his authority
Festus was now dead and albinus was but upon the road So he assembled the Sanhedrin
of judges and brought before them the brother of Jesus who was called Christ whose
name was James the scene is being set up boys and right there brother of Jesus
who's called Christ that's Josephus I've read I've read a bunch of modern Catholics
on this and they always say the same thing like this is a disciple these you know
one of Jesus's brothers and it's like one of the bros except like we don't talk
about any of the other like none of these early writers talk about like Peter or
other James or John or like anybody like this. Right. It's a very distinct marker.
Right. Actually, you think that the people who were at the Mount of Olives and at
the Transfiguration and such would have been called the brothers, Mm -hmm.
I'm gonna say here's the points of all my clickety -clackin Thank you.
So The term Adelphos is the Greek word used to call James the brother of Jesus
Which Catholics would say is also a term used to mean a close relative which could
be a cousin or a step brother and I don't know when the doctrine of perpetual
virginity was officially affirmed when it was upheld in a council,
but Origen and Jerome and Eusebius were all strong advocates and wrote extensively
about - I won't say they wrote extensively, but they did not consider James to be
the biological brother of Jesus. And Jerome actually had kind of like a battle with
this dude named Helvideus about about whether whether this was a logical thing.
So this was a controversial thing back in the days of the early church fathers. You
know who else teaches the perpetual virginity of Mary? Who? John Calvin.
Yeah. Doesn't surprise. Right. fine, we need to do a chump talk on some random
theological things, because I guess I was wrong. But okay, no, no, no, no. I
believe it's his biological brother. I think so here's my here's my here's my pitch.
I think the fact that Mary so the Roman Catholics want to teach the perpetual
virginity of Mary some of their talking points are basically like, Like how could
like the sinless womb would be violated and like it's it's also Goes hand -in -hand
with the fact that they teach that Mary also was without original sin Which is
another thing that they they teach But the fact that Mary had Had original sin and
had other children. I think is a beautiful part of the incarnation that Jesus didn't
need a perfectly sinless womb to be conceived in and be born out of.
But he took on flesh to be among us, including his wonderful mother who did have
sin. Well, we want to be factual. So I hold to the same thing as you,
Thomas. I'm just saying, I thought That I didn't know when but I thought that
doctrine came way later. Oh, I see. Oh, it's a thing I'm all about being factual,
but I am most about being Historical so I want to know what the church was saying
whether they were right or where they were wrong I want to be able to represent
where they were coming from back in the day So that's why I asked and that's why
I had to I had to do my research But job is good stuff. It's good stuff. Okay,
So, you've got this hot -headed high priest, Ananis,
who has the brother of Jesus who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some
others. And when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law,
he delivered them to be stoned.
Boom!
So, that's Josephus saying that James, the brother of Jesus was stoned. OK.
Now there, this is what's fun. So have you guys heard of
Pegasipus?
No, he's a very early church historian who
we lost.
But you know, we lost his stuff. Yeah, that's funny. Nice. But it's,
it's preserved in Eusebius. Okay. Yes.
Embedded, like an embedded PDF, like a... Yeah. Yes.
So Eusebius in Ecclesiastical Histories 2, which we already have read earlier in the
episode, so says this, "The manner of James' deaths He's already been indicated by
the above quoted words of Clement who records that he was thrown from the pinnacle
of the temple and was beaten to death with a club. But Hegesipus,
who lived immediately after the apostles, gives the most accurate account in the
fifth book of his memoirs. He writes as follows. So this is Eusebius quoting
Hegesipus. Now some of the seven sects which existed among the people and which had
been mentioned by me in my memoirs asked him what is the gate of Jesus and he
replied that he was the Savior. On account of these words some believe that Jesus
is the Christ but the sects mentioned above did not believe either in a resurrection
or in ones coming to give to every man according to his works but as many believed
did so on account of James. Therefore,
when many even the rulers believed there was a commotion among the Jews and scribes
and Pharisees who said that there was danger, that the whole people would be looking
for Jesus as the Christ. Coming therefore in a body to James they said, "We entreat
thee, restrain these people, for they are gone astray in regards to Jesus, as if he
were the Christ. We entreat thee to persuade all that have come to the feast of
the Passover concerning Jesus, for we all have confidence in thee, for we bear thee
witness as do all the people, that thou art just and dost not respect persons.
Do thou therefore persuade the multitude not to be lit astray concerning Jesus? For
thou or for the whole people and all of us also have confidence in thee.
Stand therefore upon the pinnacle of the temple, that from that high position thou
mayest be clearly seen, and that thy words may be readily heard by all the people,
for all the tribes with the Gentiles also are come together on account of this
Passover." So they're like, "Go up there, get all your people's attention,
and tell them to stop." Hmm, that's what they're so,
So then back to Eusebius quoting Haggisepus, "The aforesaid scribes and Pharisees
therefore placed James upon the pinnacle of the temple, and cried out to him and
said, Thou just one in whom we ought all to have confidence for as much as the
people are led, astray after Jesus, the crucified one, declared to us, what is the
gate of Jesus?" and he answered with a loud voice.
Get ready for this, boys, this is so good. Why do ye ask me concerning Jesus,
the Son of Man? He himself sitteth in heaven at the right hand of the great power
and is about to come upon the clouds of heaven. And many were fully convinced and
gloried in the testimony in James and said, "Hosanna to the Son of David !" These
same scribes and Pharisees said again to one another, we have done badly in
supplying such testimony to Jesus. This is a bad idea. This is a bad idea. But let
us go up there and throw him down in order that they may be afraid to believe
him. And they cried out saying, Oh, the man is also an error.
And then this is an interesting, we don't have time to follow all this little
rabbit trail. But Egesepus says, and they fulfilled the scripture written in Isaiah,
let us take away the just man because he is troublesome to us. Therefore shall they
shall eat the fruit of their doings. So he's, Egesepus is giving Isaiah to James
the just because that was his nickname, James the just. So they went up and threw
down the just man and said to each other, "Let us stone James the just," and they
began to stone him, for he's not killed by the fall. But he turned and knelt down
and said, "I entreat thee, Lord God our Father, forgive them, for they know not
what they do." And while they were thus stoning him, one of the priests, the sons
of Raqab, the son of the Raqabites, who are mentioned by Jeremiah the Prophet, cried
out saying, "ceased what do ye, the just one prayeth for you and one of them who
was a fuller took the club with which he beat out clothes and struck the just man
on the head. And thus he suffered martyrdom. Hmm. So there's like a guy on the
sidelines going like, well, you done messed up. The guy that you're killing is
literally praying for you right now. Stop. Yeah. Dude, that's such a good story and
here's the best part. What's our rule for this? That we talk about that we need to
have to really get accurate information. Living memory, living memory,
and we are 100 percent in living memory right now with this testimony. All right.
I remember reading because this what year was this like was this like 69 I don't
know actually I think it was like 69 because I think I've heard that this guy was
so well respected he's like an old man at this point he's very well respected in
Jerusalem he's been leading the Jerusalem church and when the Romans saw this they
were like that's it like this this was a major contributing factor, or at least a
contributing factor in kind of stoking the Roman anger towards the Jews in Jerusalem,
bringing the destruction the year later. That's super interesting.
And you're going to think that I'm trolling, but I'm not. That the reason he
survived his fall was because he landed on his knees and because he was such a
devout man of prayer, he had such thick calluses on his knees that they that they
buffered the blow. I am not trolling. No, no, no, they they called him. He thought
his book of martyrs says about how he about why he didn't die. Yeah, I think that
part's probably baloney, but the rest of it. I love it. I love it. We have we
have like the perfect historical account. It's within living memory. And then the
legends have to come along and be like, yeah, but did you know that why he
survived a fall was I like, I like, I'd rather just be like, he survived the fall
because God wanted him to like pray, you know, but like it's so funny to be like
the practical. It's like, oh, OK, like, I'm just going to go like toss toss on
some knee pads and he's like jump off a cliff. - He's like, I don't know what to
do. I'm gonna land on my knees.
- It's so funny to me that the Sadducees and the Pharisees are like, I can just
like see them debating. Like, okay, everyone, the crowd is all riled up. Just send
him to the top of the temple and he will tell them, he will tell them, no, no,
no more. - He's like, oh yeah, oh yeah. It's good plan. Good plan, Rabbi Youssef.
Good plan.
And then they go up to the top and then he's like, Jesus is coming on the clouds.
Well, no, he says he said it at the right hand of the one of power or something
like that, dude, and he's coming back again.
I just love like, James, when we when we give you the microphone, You're going to
say, yeah, you're going to read from the teleprompter, right? You're going to he's
like, oh, yeah, I like to take this opportunity to apologize. Absolutely. Nobody,
yeah. Oh, that's what it was. That's so the verdict here is,
yeah, he died of martyrdom approved. I got nothing. I got nothing And his mission
work, I there's that was not even that even discussed and he posted up in Jerusalem
his whole life. That's kind of what history alludes, right? Like he he had deep
roots in Jerusalem, which is why his death was so destabilizing. Yeah.
He used to be basically the bishop of the church in Jerusalem. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, McDowell has him.
Where is he? I clicked on the wrong James when I pulled up the chapter I clicked
on. So in the chapter on
James, son of Zebedee, John's brother, the first martyr of the Apostles, McDowell
actually spends a good chunk arguing the historicity of acts, which is very
interesting. But yeah, he doesn't really go into what James was doing.
But yeah, so there's there is a lot of evidence that kind of confirmed this story.
Yeah. So we've got we've got a pretty clear one here. I like The other thing I
like about his martyrdom is the way that it,
I don't know, it's like, it's not an inversion or a fulfillment, but the parallel,
I guess, to what Satan says to Jesus at the temptation, where he brings him to
that place and says, just toss yourself off, you know, and the angels will catch
you. And then it's like this satanic inciting of violence,
you know, 40 years later, it gets Jesus's brother killed,
but even in the midst of it, it just, like all these martyrdoms, it just totally
serves to grow the church. - The thing that I kind of want to look up more is the
attributing some of the prophecies to the prophecies to The Apostles and I wonder if
if that was a thing or if that was just hegasipus What prophecies are you thinking
of well the Isaiah one that he quoted? Oh, I see man coming No about throwing the
just man or something like that. Oh Oh, Oh, oh, yeah, that's yeah, yeah,
it's it is interesting. I I kind of want to that'd be something fun to look into.
Man, I'm telling you guys. So like I was very much like I would read Baptist
history in my free time. But in the last few months, since I've been on the show
in quarter two of 2025, it's just been all patristics and I'm loving it.
I'm loving it. Yes. Well, good stuff, right? Baptists for my PhD.
Yeah, we can't wait till season. We can't wait till season 13 when we finally get
into Baptist history, bro. Yeah, it'll be really good. It'll be really good.
I'm going to have so many like interesting things and it's just we're not even
going to get to use it. Yeah. Because We, yes,
because we still have quite a bit of ways to fill out all of this, like, pre
-Constantine. And then we're going to jump back to the fall of Rome, and then we'll
move forward, which is still, like, a ton. I mean, we're like two ecumenical
councils down, so yeah, we've got the lesson catching up to do. That's very good,
though. Yeah. This has been great, Taylor. Good - Good job. - Yeah, good stuff, dude.
- Yeah, James on James on James. - James on James on James. - Yeah. - James on James
on James. - Well, 'til next time. Good job, Tay. - That's right. See ya,
gang. We, we, we love you. - Yeah, don't forget to pay us.
- Oh my gosh. Don't stop it. - I'm sorry. - We I'm just gonna crush a bunch of Ben
and Jerry's pipes on the camera.
We get hard eye contact. Now we love you guys. It's all pro bono.
We're just here for you guys. We're having a good time. Alright, cheers team. Till
next time. See ya.
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