Church History for Chumps
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Saints, heretics, councils...and the occasional crazy stuff. We have fun.
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Church History for Chumps
The Roman Colosseum and Circus Maximus: The Christian's Crucible
When you think of the persecution of the Christians in the early church, it doesn't take long for the mind to naturally think of the Colosseum.
But how involved was the Roman Colosseum in the practice of executing Christians in the first 4 centuries after the life of Christ? And what about the other stadiums built around that time?
Join us as Tommy leads us through a rabbit trail for the ages.
Also, the guys discuss what brands they're wearing (weird, I know), and whether or not martyrdom by lion would have been preferable or not.
Buy us a coffee: https://buymeacoffee.com/chumphistory
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (00:00.988)
Hey everybody, welcome to Church History for Chumps. It is your main man, John Simon. In the red corner, I've got the Marauder from Marana. He puts the Holmes in homeschooled Thomas Duell.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (00:12.622)
Dude that right off the dome
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (00:16.094)
And in the blue corner, he's Ethiopia's most wanted, the old dirty Baptist, Taylor Treadway.
Whoop whoop whoop whoop whoop.
The Gatekeeper (00:27.673)
The only thing I take issue with is the blue corner. Can I just be like the farther red corner?
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (00:32.797)
What?
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (00:34.252)
I'm probably in a far this way.
The Gatekeeper (00:34.58)
He says why and then before he can finish saying the one syllable word why he goes,
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (00:41.409)
Hahaha
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (00:42.014)
Dang it. That's so whatever man. I'll put you in the green corner Tommy I like I like the drip man. I like that you've been rocking the The the cross I like it a lot it goes with everything
The Gatekeeper (00:47.132)
Eww.
The Gatekeeper (00:56.7)
I like the Carhartt apparel.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (00:56.728)
Thanks dude.
Yeah. I'm not actually wearing any Carhartt. Does it look like I'm wearing Carhartt? No. This is a Providence Christian College, which I wear that because their other logo is the Sea Beggars, which meaningful. Shout out Rod Hugen. I've got the Revolution hat on and this is one of the Bart Bridge hats where the patch is a pocket. So you can like put your ID in there or contraband when you go to, you know, to a show.
The Gatekeeper (01:01.465)
Patagonia.
Yeah, I thought you were wearing Carhartt and a Patagonia sh-
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (01:13.04)
all and shout out.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (01:29.938)
Revolution, one of those ska bands.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (01:30.24)
And then you'd call it sky. Yeah.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (01:34.222)
Okay, Mr. Gatekeep, my god, that's it, to the common man? Probably ska. To an ear with a good palate that's simply...
The Gatekeeper (01:37.178)
Wow.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (01:40.418)
Hahaha
It's West Coast Reggae Roots is what I call it. And there's no winning here.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (01:47.275)
my god.
The Gatekeeper (01:47.682)
Okay, I totally assumed because I just think of Thomas as like a I think of him as a country bumpkin I was like, of course, he's wearing Carhartt and Patagonia
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (01:57.246)
You
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (01:58.764)
And then you'll like this, the cross. This is handmade by monks on Mount Athos.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (02:05.63)
Is that real? That's awesome. That's super cool. Dude, love this segment that we're doing. Who are you wearing on Church History for jobs? man, that's, dude, how'd you get a Mount Athos handcrafted cross?
The Gatekeeper (02:05.945)
Wow.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (02:06.658)
Yes. Yeah.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (02:14.434)
Yeah, yeah.
The Gatekeeper (02:15.695)
Hmm.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (02:21.922)
I got one for me and one for Steffi and there they like it's like just like a website where you can get all sorts of things that the monks make and it's like not expensive either I mean they're probably like 20 or 25 bucks each but it's just a simple yeah yeah real
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (02:32.158)
Yeah.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (02:35.996)
Mmm. Yeah. Take note, Ken Ham. Am I right,
The Gatekeeper (02:42.331)
You should send me that link because I got to decorate my cubicle more. And I kind of want to just go like full Eastern church vibe.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (02:47.649)
Okay.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (02:54.51)
Mm-hmm.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (02:55.24)
Taylor, I'm gonna suggest that it's probably not super hard to Google Mount Athos crosses. Like, you send me that link? It's like, are you kidding me? Like.
The Gatekeeper (03:02.679)
Wow. yeah. Yeah. Please. Wow. All right, we're coming out swinging.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (03:12.018)
is like let me Google that for you.com. I'm sorry bro. Okay. So disrespectful bro. This is J crew. Thank you very much.
The Gatekeeper (03:17.061)
What are you wearing a champion shirt? That you bought at Kmart?
The Gatekeeper (03:24.357)
Try to find the words to describe this boy would not be disrespectful.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (03:29.246)
Okay, alright, you're the only guy now keeping Joe Boxer brand alive.
The Gatekeeper (03:36.581)
I'll have you know, this is... I'm wearing Hanes.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (03:41.84)
a man of fashion and style.
The Gatekeeper (03:44.995)
Yeah, dude my thick white tea that's too big
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (03:50.214)
What's your hat? Tell me about your hat.
The Gatekeeper (03:52.639)
you can't see it, but there's an American flag embroidered into it. So it's black with a black American flag.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (04:01.467)
is that like a Blue Lives Matter thing?
The Gatekeeper (04:03.259)
We could, it's what you want it to be.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (04:06.856)
it's black though, so it's a Black Lives Matter.
The Gatekeeper (04:09.521)
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (04:13.266)
What are you aware to support black police officers?
The Gatekeeper (04:13.647)
Yes.
The Gatekeeper (04:18.233)
I don't wear, I wear cheap things on Amazon.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (04:22.91)
I like how both you guys were like, I'm gonna say something, I really can't say anything to that.
The Gatekeeper (04:27.694)
I just-
We'll save our spicy takes for...
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (04:33.627)
Yeah.
The Gatekeeper (04:35.195)
church history.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (04:37.192)
church history for chumps after dark the the the unrated version yeah
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (04:38.454)
Yeah. man.
man.
The Gatekeeper (04:45.243)
That's where Tommy just quotes Doug Wilson.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (04:48.022)
See you.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (04:49.022)
It would have to be unrated if he quotes.
The Gatekeeper (04:52.603)
yeah!
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (04:54.082)
Hahaha
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (04:57.967)
man, boy.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (04:58.21)
Ha, that's funny. We can all have a good laugh.
The Gatekeeper (04:58.849)
Alright, none of our listeners know who Doug Wilson is.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (05:03.768)
think some of them do actually, but... man.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (05:06.92)
I think what I love about the spread of the three of us is that all of us probably listen to at least one person that the other two would probably not jive with.
The Gatekeeper (05:18.735)
Yeah, who's mine? Mine's, is mine Albert Moller?
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (05:22.37)
I like Albert Muller.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (05:22.812)
any beef with Al Mohler, he's fine.
The Gatekeeper (05:24.059)
Mmm, who's mine?
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (05:28.36)
You probably, yeah. You still have that autographed picture of Mark Driscoll in your office, right?
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (05:28.59)
Probably Benny Hinn.
The Gatekeeper (05:31.114)
wow. What about-
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (05:36.833)
that's probably... that might be it. That'd old Drizzy Drake.
The Gatekeeper (05:37.081)
No, I don't. No, I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. It's probably John MacArthur then for me.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (05:42.366)
gonna say Jersey Driscoll.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (05:45.742)
Mmm.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (05:46.846)
I mean you still I mean John MacArthur's like con like listening to Kanye now It's like now like still like he had his heyday, but now
The Gatekeeper (05:55.387)
Yeah. I still, listen to old John MacArthur. read old, I like, I don't know. I like, I like what the John MacArthur churches do.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (06:05.448)
Sure, sure. Are they, Doug Wilson? Yeah. Dougy Fresh. Yeah, Dougy Fresh. Yeah.
The Gatekeeper (06:06.447)
So that's mine. What's Tommy's? what? Go ahead.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (06:10.702)
Doug Wilson probably. Dougy Fresh. And then John's. Do we pick for you or do you pick for yourself? Because I got one in mind that I think.
The Gatekeeper (06:12.261)
Dougie Fresh. We both hit him with the Dougie Fresh, John Silent.
The Gatekeeper (06:23.707)
Who's the guy that rose the racist baby?
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (06:23.762)
Who you gonna pick?
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (06:26.06)
Jamar Tisby.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (06:27.806)
Actually, I follow him. I don't read his stuff. actually don't like his stuff that much. We looked at, when I was back at the church, we looked at doing a book study on racial topics with a book by Jamar Tisby. And I was like, if we read this book, we're going to do nothing but set kerosene on the fire. I was like, I think it's good, but I also think it's inflammatory.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (06:53.154)
You
The Gatekeeper (06:53.893)
John Simon is so charitable that you would read Gustavo Gutierrez and be like, well, I'm just trying to pull the good stuff from him.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (07:07.312)
I legit would though, that's the problem. That's a hundred percent true. Dude. Dude, I've got the cross and the lynching tree on my read later list on a Goodreads by James O.
The Gatekeeper (07:09.083)
I don't mean to tell me you're like, hey, let me order that heretical garbage stamp from Amazon.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (07:21.314)
Keep it on- add it to the read later, later, later,
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (07:24.51)
Here's the thing, I'm all about reading controversial theology that resonates with people because I want to understand how people's brains work. Not so I can be like, that's a really good point, but sometimes they do make good points. It's just avalanched by a pile of garbage that they also say. But I'm all about spitting out bones, you know what saying, for the most part. I don't know. Yeah.
The Gatekeeper (07:25.165)
Yeah.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (07:45.134)
Mm-hmm.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (07:53.756)
But you're right, I probably read too much bad stuff. You know what's not gonna be bad stuff though? This episode right here. This episode right freaking here. And this is one of my favorites, as much as I love our structured, kind of linear episodes, I also just love our rabbit trails. I just love the goose hunts, and we've got some geese in our sights today, boys. So I'm excited. So Tommy, you ready?
The Gatekeeper (07:56.699)
You
Tommy's podcast? Yeah.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (08:23.212)
Yeah, let's do it. Today's kind of going to be like, I force the thousands of people that listen to our podcast around the world to just listen to me talk about my own little Wikipedia rapid trail. but I think, I think it's actually pretty interesting and it does dovetail pretty nicely with, some of the more recent, things that we've been talking about on the pod. but I got curious about,
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (08:24.23)
Alright, where are we at? Where are we headed?
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (08:38.076)
I love it, I love it.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (08:49.436)
Mm-hmm.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (08:52.598)
Where specifically was a lot of the persecution and the execution of Christians happening in the empire and in Rome itself? Because I've had in my mind this notion that lots and lots of Christians were killed in the Colosseum in Rome. So the Colosseum is
The Gatekeeper (09:17.851)
you
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (09:21.322)
synonymous in our minds with Christian persecution, I think. When we envision the martyrdoms of early Christians, the most likely scene that would come into our minds is like a vision from the movie Gladiator, where you've got like this sandy field with an enormous circular building surrounding these faithful saints who are facing down lions, fire, the sword. And here at CH4C we've done
episodes on polycarp, perpetua and felicity, Lawrence the Deacon, and most recently Ignatius, who all had very public deaths that were probably done for the entertainment of the people in the city where they were killed as some sort of public event. All of those martyrdoms share that common feature in the story. One thing
that I find interesting about several of these stories is the way that Christian martyrdom disturbed the people looking on, specifically in the story of Polycarp. You also get it a little bit in Perpetua and Felicity. We see that the work of the Spirit through the people being killed for the sake of Christ was visibly obvious to the onlookers who are—it's like they come for entertainment, and then one of two things happens. Either they just get even more enraged,
because they see the faithfulness of the people being killed or they're just stunned into silence, which I think is what happens specifically with Polycarp's death. Then you've got Lawrence the Deacon, who in the middle of his death cracks a joke. Polycarp filled the arena of his death in Smyrna with the smell of freshly baked bread. Now...
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (10:55.666)
Hmm.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (11:13.024)
Not all of these people died in the Colosseum. They died in various arenas around the empire, in Carthage, in Smyrna, and other places. Ignatius, one of our recent episodes, actually was killed in the Roman Colosseum, according to Chrysostom. And he was devoured by lions, according to Jerome. And Ignatius himself said that that's how he was going to die. He knew that that was the fate that he was heading to.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (11:42.11)
Hmm.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (11:42.402)
So anyway, I got interested in the history of the Colosseum. It's a building that was specifically designed to highlight the glory of Rome, to promote violence as entertainment, and oftentimes, I think, to kill Christians who stood against the very essence of the Colosseum itself. So there's my opener, and we're going to dive into some history about the Colosseum, but then...
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (12:06.814)
Mmm.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (12:12.094)
what we're gonna find is that if we want to know more about the martyrdoms, we're actually gonna have to talk about some other buildings in Rome as well. But we'll start with the Colosseum. And I'm curious, have either of you been to Rome? This is not a humble brag, I have not been. I'm just curious if either of you have.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (12:24.839)
Nah.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (12:28.338)
Nah dude, it's on the bucket list, but I haven't been able to make it out there. What about you Tay?
The Gatekeeper (12:32.443)
I have only been to Ethiopia.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (12:37.854)
I've actually lived in one country and it's Ethiopia and it was a month ago.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (12:38.03)
Sorry I asked. It's all of me. Where did you lay over on the way there? Or did you?
The Gatekeeper (12:47.355)
You
The Gatekeeper (12:51.339)
I happened to roam. Technically. Well, it wasn't even a layover. We stopped for gas.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (12:53.878)
No way!
Like you stayed on the plane? no!
The Gatekeeper (13:00.953)
Yeah, they wouldn't even let me out. was like, dude, I was like begging. I just wanted fresh air. And they were like, sir, you can't stand next to the door.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (13:08.562)
That's so funny. This is literally on your way to Ethiopia. okay. Okay. Yeah.
The Gatekeeper (13:13.517)
On the way back. Yeah, we stopped. We stopped in Rome at I don't even know what time it was. It was the middle of the night. Like
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (13:20.556)
What if you're like, I need fresh air and then you go into the air and you're just like, nevermind.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (13:20.733)
Mm-hmm.
The Gatekeeper (13:27.157)
Ugh, Italians. Actually, I have breathed Roman air because they did open the cabin and I conveniently walked up to use the bathroom and may or may not have tried to see if I could go stretch my legs outside. Which I was told, sir, please return to your seat.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (13:28.446)
Smells like, smells like tortellini.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (13:45.55)
Mm-hmm. They're like...
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (13:46.001)
You
Miss Guzzi said, Miss Guzzi.
The Gatekeeper (13:51.547)
Yeah.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (13:53.278)
That's all I got. I'm not gonna go that deep with my Italian accent. You know, okay, I'm not gonna ask this question yet because I don't want to get ahead of where you're going, Tommy, but my curiosity, because we've talked about architecture in our show. We've talked about how the Roman significant cultural locations were changed post-Constantine.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (13:53.752)
That's great.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (14:21.682)
So my brain immediately wants to know what did the Christians do with the Colosseum when they weren't feeding Christians to lions and tigers and bears, my.
The Gatekeeper (14:31.459)
Lions.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (14:33.912)
Yeah, I had the exact same question. And so we'll get there for sure.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (14:36.878)
Mm-hmm. Okay. All right. All right. No, I'm excited. Okay. I'm on board.
The Gatekeeper (14:41.947)
My thought is maybe the Postmills are onto something because I can't imagine any Westerner or any culture that I'm really aware of gathering like to watch somebody get brutally murdered now.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (14:57.418)
dude, Western civilization is amazing.
The Gatekeeper (15:00.827)
I'm sorry, John Simon, I didn't mean to start this.
Tommy's like, let me tell you about post-millennialism.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (15:07.87)
I mean...
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (15:09.676)
No, no, I'm agreeing with you. It's actually a worthwhile tangent for this episode. I've thought about that before. We don't really have... I mean, we have the UFC, which is kind of the same spirit, but it's way different. We're not killing people on pay-per-view television.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (15:33.086)
This is maybe too much of a tangent. And Taylor, you did kick the, not the hornet's nest, maybe you poked a little bee's nest. But I'm like, we do have a culture that has a lot of violent tendencies. UFC is not the Coliseum, it's not murder, but we do gather to watch people disarm each other. We love watching John Wick movies where faceless bad guys get shot in the
The Gatekeeper (15:42.491)
Post the Post Mill Nest.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (16:02.952)
brain like yeah I mean yeah that's fair but I mean they thought the people they were feeding to lions were bad guys too these were criminals
The Gatekeeper (16:03.003)
Yeah, because they're bad guys.
You know what's just going through my head?
Mark Driscoll-esque theology of just, you know, it's just masculine energy. It's good. That's what's echoing in my brain.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (16:20.486)
I feel like it. No, I do think there's a line. And I do think that if someone pitched a brand of the UFC that was basically just a fight to the death, it would get stomped out because we are not our Roman predecessors. But I don't know. I still think we like violence a lot in this country. That's a whole conversation. That's a whole conversation.
The Gatekeeper (16:34.628)
right.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (16:39.534)
that's
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (16:44.014)
So, before we talk about how we got the Colosseum, we actually have to talk about Nero. So, in some ways the story of the Colosseum, in this roundabout way we can actually thank Nero for it, kind of. Nero did not build the Colosseum, but he did build a massive 120 foot statue of himself that was called the Colossus of Nero.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (16:49.905)
Okay.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (17:13.36)
Okay, banger of a name. Yeah.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (17:13.635)
varying yet very near a new jimmy book pull up the colossus of near a we have jimmy
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (17:20.67)
Wow, yeah, just as impressive as I imagined.
There's not pictures of it though, are there? I'm gonna check.
The Gatekeeper (17:30.715)
I'm getting there. I had to figure out how to spell colossus.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (17:30.802)
well, they know, they know that, it was patterned off of the, the Colossus of Rhodes, which we, we have enough descriptions of the Colossus of Rhodes, and this Colossus of Nero that they basically know what it looks like. I mean, just a, a hundred and twenty foot golden statue of a man.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (17:58.216)
Dang, that is, wow, there's a lot you could say about that.
The Gatekeeper (18:03.579)
There's no way that guy was that ripped.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (18:06.476)
Heh heh.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (18:08.887)
he's also got that little headdress that reminds me of the Statue of Liberty, which is kinda weird.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (18:12.556)
Yeah, so actually let me tell you about that. he, the original statue didn't have that. And basically what happened is, so Nero probably started the fire in Rome in AD 64. Started at the Circus Maximus, which is kind of like his spot, and it burns a big chunk of the city. And this
There was this big area of the city that used to have like people's homes and stuff in it that totally got burned out. And from what I read, Nero basically turned it into like his own park. Like he just took that area and it was called the Domus Aurea. And it's like this big landscaped area that he'd like took from the people. And then he had this big statue of himself at the entrance to the area. A few years later, he dies and Emperor Vespasian
Succeeds him and the Spatian I mean think about this like if you're the Emperor Here's this like 120 foot tall statues like do you melt it down? You know build something else like it's probably not easy to build something that big He actually he adds that Sun Ray crown that you were talking about John to that statue To turn it into a statue of the God's soul
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (19:28.424)
Mm-hmm.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (19:34.742)
Then, around 60 years later, Emperor Hadrian is going to move that thing right next to the Coliseum. instead of, so spoiler alert, that area that Nero had turned into his park, that's where Vespasian is going to build the Coliseum. And they're going to eventually move that statue, that Colossus, right next to the Coliseum. Like I'm assuming you probably saw pictures when you Googled it of that statue, like, you know.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (19:50.94)
Okay.
The Gatekeeper (19:51.131)
you
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (20:03.308)
within view or in the same kind of general area.
The Gatekeeper (20:04.936)
Yeah, like 50 feet from it.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (20:07.822)
Mm-hmm.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (20:07.89)
Yeah. Yeah.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (20:10.764)
So try to imagine this site in your mind then. The Coliseum's been built. It's this huge, like you can look up pictures of the Coliseum now. I think it's not, I think it might not be as tall now as it was in its final form because I think that there was wooden sections above the stone that made it even bigger. so imagine just walking up to this thing. I think the Gladiator movies actually give a pretty good like.
feel of what that would be like, like this huge building that's just like pumping with excitement and you know the roars of the crowd and there's this huge statue of a Roman god standing there as you're walking in. mean the Romans didn't do anything small in Rome and the Colosseum got its name partially because of its proximity to this Colossus. So Vespasian
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (21:03.122)
Hmm.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (21:07.758)
is the emperor that follows Nero and he in this very kind of like populace move to kind of it's almost like a to counteract the way that Nero had been leading the people and They did not the people of Rome do not like Nero the Spatians like the people's Emperor and he builds this Coliseum on this on Nero's Park basically
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (21:28.189)
Yes. Yeah.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (21:37.998)
And they started around AD 70, AD 70 to 72, and they get this, they funded the construction of the Colosseum with the spoils of war from Jerusalem.
The Gatekeeper (21:51.664)
Oof.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (21:52.732)
Wow, okay. so this was when this was so this is when the temple was destroyed, right? my gosh, that is insane. So they, so they sieged Jerusalem, took all the gold and precious materials, and then use that to make this giant like dedication to the Roman idea of power and victory. That's crazy.
The Gatekeeper (21:54.972)
Oof.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (21:59.426)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (22:21.667)
Yep.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (22:22.497)
That is quite crazy, yeah.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (22:26.254)
I uh... Oh, sorry, go ahead, Taron.
The Gatekeeper (22:28.603)
I was gonna say, did the people know that?
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (22:31.822)
Probably.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (22:34.248)
I mean, they didn't care. Like, they weren't, they weren't-
The Gatekeeper (22:35.003)
I mean all the Jews and Christians in Rome definitely were probably you know like that's messed up
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (22:42.534)
Yeah, but like after the destruction of Jerusalem, the Jews were like heavily diasporid and also Romans did not like Jews anyways. So they were like, yeah, we did this with your money.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (22:42.936)
Yeah, well...
The Gatekeeper (22:54.573)
No, did. There was probably not that many Jews left in Rome.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (23:02.142)
Yeah, no, the majority of them were gone after the siege.
The Gatekeeper (23:04.77)
Because, well, they got kicked out. They did, well, yeah, they got kicked out of Rome and then some returned.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (23:11.422)
Mm-hmm.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (23:13.134)
There's a chance that they would have brought slaves back from Jerusalem to build the Coliseum too. From everything I've ever read about AD 70 and the destruction of Jerusalem, I don't know how many people were left to bring back. I mean, they basically killed everybody in there. But in any case, so Titus. Titus is the one who was the, so that's Vespasian's son. He's the one that was leading that.
The Gatekeeper (23:20.066)
my gosh.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (23:27.358)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (23:41.742)
He was like the general basically who destroyed Jerusalem. so they start building this Colosseum. Wikipedia says, the Colosseum had been completed up to the third story by the time of Vespasian's death in 79. The top level was finished by his son Titus in 80. And the inaugural games were held in 80 or 81 AD.
Deocassius recounts that over 9,000 wild animals were killed during the inaugural games of the amphitheater.
commemorative coinage was issued celebrating the inauguration. Yeah, bobbleheads and stuff.
The Gatekeeper (24:24.411)
They gave out merch?
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (24:31.218)
These are all pretty western things. I don't know. This doesn't sound so different from what would happen at a Disneyland sans the slaughtering of wild animals.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (24:31.469)
like a
The Gatekeeper (24:38.511)
You are delusional. 9,000 wild animals. People freak out if like a pigeon gets accidentally killed by a pyrotechnic.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (24:48.19)
just saying man there they've got some some mickey mouse
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (24:50.126)
Yeah man, Randy Johnson still has night terrors about that dove that he killed.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (24:59.32)
Yeah. boy. So the building was remodeled further under Vespasian's younger son, the newly designated emperor Domitian, who constructed the Hypogeum, which is the series of tunnels used to house animals and slaves underneath the Coliseum. And he also is the one who added the gallery to the top. That's what I think burned later on.
The Gatekeeper (25:25.729)
added the stuff so they could flood it and put sharks in as seen in gladiator 2.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (25:30.158)
Denzel Yeah, I've heard that about the Coliseum that they would flood it to have those naval battles I didn't do any research on that this time, but I've always been kind of fascinated by that fact You know someone we need to do an episode on sometime soon or well Maybe when we get to that point in history is the venerable bead, but I've got a quote from him from the eighth century
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (25:30.792)
Denzel Washington.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (25:59.51)
An epigram attributed to the Venerable Bede celebrated the symbolic significance of... So actually he's talking about the statue outside of the Colosseum, but it's like they kind of go together. A prophecy that is quoted...
Which means, as long as the Colossus stands, so shall Rome. When the Colossus falls, Rome shall fall. When Rome falls, so falls the world. it's sometimes been translated that he was talking about the Colosseum. He's probably talking about that massive statue. But in any case, it's like these things really represented the power of Rome.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (26:55.708)
Yeah, yeah.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (26:57.23)
Which kind of gets at your question that you were asking earlier, but sorry, go ahead.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (27:00.67)
No, I was just gonna say, makes sense why fascist leaders, well, I won't even say fascist, but like, leaders have always used kind of Rome as this historical prototype of how to use images and symbolisms, because everything they do is like, this is not just like a stadium for fun games. This is like, this is the power of Rome. Like, this represents Rome.
Rome loves doing things that embody Roman virtues. And I feel like that's a big thing. mean, obviously like Mussolini and Hitler are gonna like co-opt lots of Roman imagery and their stuff. But I mean, even in the non-fascist world, we just love imagery as Westerners. We just love like, you know, the eagle as that sign of like freedom and bravery. you know, it's just, it's such a cool thing that Rome is kind of like.
establishing here. Not that they're the first society to use imagery, but it's just cool to see it. Big time, yeah.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (28:02.008)
They were really, really, really good at it.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (28:07.352)
So definitely there's going to be a shift, not long after this in the grand scheme, because of the way that Christianity is going to infiltrate the empire. So you have a couple of centuries of Roman emperors who are not Christians. Christians, it's like always, like we've been talking about, it's kind of always up and down how Christians fare in the empire. But then after Constantine, you start having
a change, cultural change occurring in not only Rome but all over the empire. So gladiator fights were banned by the end of the fourth century by the emperor Honorius. And supposedly he banned them because there was a Christian monk named Telemachus who was protesting a gladiator fight and the people watching the fight got so mad that they just stoned him to death right there.
So that might be an interesting little episode.
The Gatekeeper (29:10.885)
telemarkets.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (29:12.304)
He was just standing outside with like a big sign that said, stop. More like bad yader fights. Yeah. And then they just killed him.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (29:12.408)
Yeah.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (29:16.684)
Yeah, just say no.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (29:21.699)
Yup.
They're like, dude, you're done. No more cardboard.
The Gatekeeper (29:25.893)
Don't insult our barbaric entertainment. Let's prove how barbaric we are and kill you.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (29:26.334)
That's crazy. That's right. How dare you call us a barbarian? Kill this man. man, that's crazy. I mean, that's cool that, so this was, you said end of the fourth century was when this happened. So that's, so that's going to be a few generations following our boy, our boy Constantine, right?
The Gatekeeper (29:36.485)
Gosh.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (29:51.928)
Yep. Yep.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (29:52.712)
But I get are there are there gonna be any adjustments made to the to the Colosseum fights when Rome starts to lean more Christian Lee?
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (30:02.606)
I didn't notice a big difference like immediately and in researching this specific episode I didn't see anything about that but from some of the other research I've been doing on Constantine that doesn't seem like the sort of thing that Constantine would have done would be to like change really how the Colosseum was working. He was a little bit more lenient with that sort of thing than you might imagine.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (30:29.886)
Okay, yeah.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (30:30.52)
So took a couple generations. Well, by the sixth century, there was a small chapel that existed in the Coliseum. And there's not a whole lot of information that I could find on that. And part of it is because the Coliseum really did, it's always struggled with structural integrity and fires, and it really wasn't...
But when Christendom is really ramping up, the Coliseum was not like a great piece of real estate. And so I don't think it like made a ton of sense for it to be like this, you know, mega church building. Even as cool as that would have been. I don't think that they ever really had it like that. I think that I I read there was like some some monks maybe that like had a like inhabited part of the Coliseum at one point, but it didn't really.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (31:09.574)
Hmm, okay.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (31:25.63)
Yeah.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (31:26.764)
It's never really had like some big exciting other use since they had the fights in it.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (31:31.26)
Yeah, I wonder too if like maybe it wasn't like maybe it wasn't that the government came down hard on what the Coliseum was doing but maybe just as time and culture changed people just it just kind of went out of fashion like people just weren't that into the Coliseum you know into the fights and stuff like that as much anyway
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (31:55.874)
Yeah.
The Gatekeeper (31:56.239)
because culture was changing because of Christian influence.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (32:01.0)
Maybe, yeah, maybe.
The Gatekeeper (32:03.099)
Tommy like that
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (32:05.532)
I'm not anti-cultural change. It's not a gotcha.
The Gatekeeper (32:08.187)
I didn't think it was I didn't think it was
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (32:13.805)
I know.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (32:14.094)
So something that I came across was that I think one reason that we don't see like this massive like counter pivot to how the Colosseum is being used is it might not actually be the case that there was really that many Christians that were killed in the Colosseum. So I think the reason why that's kind of in the the zeitgeist is back in the 1700s there is a pope so Pope Benedict the 14th in 1749 he like officially endorsed
the view that the Coliseum was a sacred site where early Christians had been martyred. He forbade the use of the Coliseum as a quarry and consecrated the building to the Passion of Christ and installed stations of the cross, declaring it sanctified by the blood of the Christian martyrs who perished there. Since then,
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (33:03.154)
And you said this was what sentence? This was like a, this was how long, how long after the fact?
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (33:08.3)
This is like when George Washington was a young bloke.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (33:13.512)
Wow, so this was way later. I mean, and it's cool that they still had this sense of identity to the Christians, like, season of persecution in Rome. But yeah, that's wild. It was so much later. That's interesting.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (33:31.15)
Mm-hmm. Since then it seems like lots of scholars have basically said, like there's really not a whole lot of evidence that there were Christians dying in the Coliseum, or like there was a lot of persecution going on in the Coliseum. I think because like nobody actually ever said that. I think it's like, like we just kind of imagine that. So the next most likely place where we know that there was more
persecution going on is in the Circus Maximus. So the Circus Maximus was in a different part of Rome. I'm going read you guys some more Wikipedia. The Circus Maximus was sited on the level ground of the valley of Mercia between Rome's Aventine and Palantine hills. So it's kind like in this valley. In Rome's early days the valley would have been rich agricultural land prone to flooding from the river Tiber.
and the stream which divided the valley lengthwise. The stream was probably bridged at an early date at the two points where the track had to cross it. And the earliest races would have been held within an agricultural landscape with nothing more than turning posts, banks where spectators could sit and some shrines and sacred spots. So it's basically like this nice flat meadow where they were like, hey, we should have horse races out here. And then over time, it just gets
built up and built up until it's this pretty impressive kind of like outdoor. Think of like Churchill Downs kind of, you know, big amphitheater setting, but flat horse racing area in the middle.
The Gatekeeper (35:06.683)
Like a jousting ground.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (35:09.932)
Yes. So the circus.
The Gatekeeper (35:13.593)
what Churchill Downs is. I don't know what Churchill Downs is.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (35:16.706)
I'm pretty sure they do the Kentucky Derby.
The Gatekeeper (35:19.163)
What about, like, NASCAR?
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (35:24.206)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's a NASCAR track trailer?
The Gatekeeper (35:30.971)
I'm gonna turn left.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (35:32.782)
No, no, what's the name of a trap? What's the popular one that we should all know? Daytona! Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.
The Gatekeeper (35:38.927)
Daytona.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (35:42.056)
Trey toner.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (35:43.576)
Trey-Tona.
The Gatekeeper (35:44.613)
Tommy, we all have to fulfill our stereotypes and you're supposed to be the white trash.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (35:47.17)
So for our listeners in Nebraska, yeah, think of Daytona.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (35:57.172)
We always like to bring church history down to your level.
The Gatekeeper (36:01.121)
my gosh.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (36:01.262)
I just I don't know anybody in Nebraska. So that was that was all I had to run off of it's that wasn't that wasn't anything other than just
The Gatekeeper (36:11.353)
Run the metrics, John Simon. How many listeners in Nebraska do we have?
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (36:14.856)
Hold on.
The Gatekeeper (36:19.727)
What do we got?
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (36:21.502)
16 %
The Gatekeeper (36:23.451)
16%.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (36:23.506)
boy, Rough. Hey, sorry Nebraska. I was crashing out for no reason.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (36:24.808)
That's way too high. That's way too high. No, no, I'll do some actual research. Yeah, to make you feel better in Nebraska, I didn't know what the Churchill downs were either. When Taylor said jousting, was like, sounds right.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (36:36.782)
Okay, okay So the the circus this is more Wikipedia I feel like I have to keep saying that just in case someday someone checks us You know which what a waste of time
The Gatekeeper (36:37.242)
Ha
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (36:39.784)
Good gravy. All right, carry on, carry on.
The Gatekeeper (36:40.059)
Gosh. Okay.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (36:51.911)
Man.
The Gatekeeper (36:54.573)
No, remember, we'd said a lot of this stuff. Like I said, I catch our professors editing Wikipedia pages in their spare time.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (37:01.942)
Yeah, So the circus was Rome's largest venue for Ludi, I think is how you pronounce it, which were public games connected to Roman religious festivals. So Ludi were sponsored by leading Romans or the Roman state for the benefit of the Roman people and gods. Most were held annually or at annual intervals on the Roman calendar. Others might be given to fulfill a religious vow, such as the games in celebration of a triumph.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (37:02.558)
That's right. Trickle down theology.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (37:32.246)
In Roman tradition, the earliest triumphal Lutei at the circus were vowed by Tarquin the Proud to Jupiter in the late regal era for his victory over Pomitia. So if you saw the new Gladiator movie, you see this happen, like, I forget the name of the character, but he gets back from, you know, winning a war and I think like Carthage and he gets back and they have games in his honor.
Ludi ranged in duration and scope from one day or even half-day events to spectacular multi-venue celebrations held over several days, with religious ceremonies and public feasts, horse and chariot racing, athletics, plays and recitals, beast hunts and gladiator fights, and some did include public executions. The greater Ludi at the circus began with a flamboyant parade, much like the triumphal procession
which marked the purpose of the games and introduced the participants. To me, didn't actually read like if this is where I think the Olympic games I think is actually more of a Greek tradition, but it seems like they would do more like that sort of activity here than just straight up just like gladiator fights. Like let's watch like people get ripped apart by animals and other people. It's like a little bit more for like races and
things like that. There was an event held there in 169 BC that used 63 leopards and 40 bears and elephants. And I don't know if they were just letting those things just run around and kill each other. I'm not sure, but those are the animals that they had there. Julius Caesar was actually responsible for a big part of the development of the circus commencing around 50 BC.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (38:57.425)
Mm-hmm.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (39:15.251)
Well...
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (39:23.5)
and he extended the seating tiers to run almost the entire circuit of the track barring the starting gates and a processional entrance at the semicircular end. The track measured 2,037 feet in length and about 490 feet in breadth. This was really, really large. There was a canal between the track perimeter and its seating that protected spectators and helped drain the track. The inner third of the seating formed a trackside caviar.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (39:41.502)
Mm-hmm.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (39:52.206)
Its front sections along the central strait were reserved for senators and those immediately behind for equites. The outer tiers, two-thirds of the total, were meant for Roman plebs and non-citizens. They were timber built with wooden frame service buildings, shops and entranceways beneath. The total number of seats is uncertain, but was probably in the order of 150,000. So this is like modern day stadium size.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (40:05.342)
Hmm.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (40:16.05)
Wow.
The Gatekeeper (40:20.57)
Wow.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (40:20.977)
Mm-hmm, big time. You know what would have been interesting job? To be one of the people who captured these animals to bring to... Yeah, I literally just went through a whole hypothetical movie in my head where like you're one of the people that catches these animals, but then you meet this bear and you become like really cool with the bear. And let's say he talks to the bear, the bear can talk. And you're like, I don't want to send this bear to fight to the death.
The Gatekeeper (40:28.891)
I was just thinking that.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (40:49.862)
And so then you get like kind of up in arms with the diplomats who are like, got a job, Marcus. This is what you do. You're not the be the bear spokesperson. But I just, don't know. I think DreamWorks could have done something with that.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (41:02.958)
And then you bring you bring the bear out and he's just like no, no, no, no, no, no, no And and the Romans are like, yeah, and then they have like a flash mob parade and it's all happy scene
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (41:09.726)
You
Yeah
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (41:17.51)
Or they just start worshipping the bear or something like that. I don't know. Yeah. lot of ways you could go with that.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (41:20.194)
Yeah.
Good idea, Joe.
So alright, got something for you guys to look up. We're gonna do an art lesson. And if you listener are not driving 85 miles an hour down the interstate right now, you look it up too. But look up, guys, look up the painting, The Christian Martyr's Last Prayer by Jean-Léon Jerome.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (41:29.854)
All right.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (41:37.726)
All right.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (41:43.038)
Bye!
The Gatekeeper (41:47.901)
I've seen this.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (41:51.278)
Pretty cool,
The Gatekeeper (41:53.06)
Yeah.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (41:54.68)
So for the listener who wasn't able to look it up, I'll kind of describe it. You see, it looks like what you imagine the Coliseum to be because there's this big amphitheater section in the background filled with crowd. There's a lion followed by another lion and a tiger stepping out of this underground chamber. And then he's approaching what looks to be like
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (41:54.87)
yeah.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (42:24.59)
probably 20 or 30, what you would presume to be Christians kneeling in prayer. And there's like an older saint standing in the middle of them, looking up to the sky. Behind them you can see some of the temples of the Roman gods looking down on this arena. And then...
encircling the whole field in the arena is Christians who have been crucified and they've been set on fire. So it's a very morbid scene. anyway, the context for this, there was a... so Tacitus wrote concerning the persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire.
And this is probably talking about stuff going on in the Circus Maximus. So this is from his Annals. Listen to this.
or they were fastened on crosses, and when daylight failed, were burned to serve as lamps by night. Nero had offered his gardens for the spectacle and gave an exhibition in his circus, mixing with the crowd in the habit of a charioteer or mounted on his car. Hence, in spite of a guilt which had earned the most exemplary punishment, there arose a sentiment of pity due to the impression that they were being sacrificed not for the welfare of the state, but to the ferocity
of a single man. And so you have this Roman historian who's writing and going, like, Nero was killing Christians in the Circus Maximus. it was even though we all know these guys, these Christians deserved it, like, the people kind of didn't like it because it felt like it was just Nero's own personal, like, spite or game. And not necessarily because these people
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (44:39.614)
Hmm.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (44:42.968)
We're bad for the empire.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (44:44.818)
Hmm You know, I've seen this this painting so many times and I I've never actually noticed the the pictures of the people being crucified I've always you know, I've obviously focused on the the setting and the beasts and the the little huddled mass of Christians But yeah, I never realized that there were like crucified Christians who were like a flame in this so
Yeah, that's intense.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (45:17.166)
So I found a letter that was sent by the artist to the guy who had it commissioned. And it's really interesting. I wanted to read it. So the guy who commissioned it, his name was W.T. Walters from Baltimore, and he commissioned it in 1863, but the artist didn't finish it for 20 years. So in 1883, Guiderot delivers it, and this is what he wrote. He says, my dear sir,
I send you a few notes about my picture, The Christian Martyr's Last Prayer, which you have bought. I regret to have made you wait for it so long, but I had a difficult task, being determined not to leave it until I accomplished all of which I was capable. This picture has been upon my easel for over twenty years. I have repainted it from the beginning three times, have re-handled and re-changed both the effect and the composition, always, however, preserving my first idea.
This, therefore, is really the third canvas which you receive. The scene is laid in the Circus Maximus, which might readily be mistaken for an amphitheater, as in the picture only the end of of the circus and not the straight sides is visible. But you will see on the left the meta which ends the Spina and is the goal around which the chariots made their turns in the races, as I have indicated by the tracks of the wheels in the sand. The Circus Maximus
was one of the mightiest monuments ever built. It held more than 150,000 spectators. Its left touched the palace of the Caesars, whence a subterranean passage led directly to the Emperor's Lodge. In the time of the Caesars, Christians were cruelly persecuted and many were sentenced to be devoured by wild beasts. This is the subject of my picture. As they were religious enthusiasts, to die was a joy and they cared little for the animals.
their only thought being to remain firm to the last, and rarely indeed was there found a case of apostasy. The Roman prisons were terrible dungeons, and Christians, being often long confined before the sacrifice, when led into the circus were emaciated by disease and covered only with rags. Their hearts alone remained strong, their faith alone remained unshaken. In the middle distance I have placed those destined to be burned alive.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (47:38.242)
They were usually tied upon crosses and smeared with pitch to feed the flames. Alluding to this, Tacitus says, these Christians should certainly be put to death, but wherefore smear them with pitch and burn them like torches? His sympathy, however, went no further. It was the custom to starve the wild beasts for several days beforehand, and they were admitted to the arena up inclined planes.
Coming from the dark dens below, their first action was of astonishment upon facing the bright daylight and the great mass of people surrounding them. They did then, as does today, the Spanish bull, when turned into the arena, entering with a bound. He suddenly halts in the very middle of a stride. This moment I have sought to represent. I consider this picture one of my most studied works, the one for which I have given myself most trouble. Is it a success? End of letter.
The Gatekeeper (48:32.8)
Eugh. I've been quiet for a while because this is just a lot.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (48:41.202)
Yeah dude, if I commission you to paint a painting for me and you take 20 years, yeah I want a freaking letter too. That's not half to say. Yeah man! Fiverr would never do that to me.
The Gatekeeper (48:49.637)
That's your takeaway.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (48:57.342)
48 to 72 hours my dog.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (49:01.634)
John's like, yeah, we have a lot of violence still in today's society. Fiverr, I'm gonna, let me hire some guy from the Philippines to make this graphic design for me.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (49:13.17)
That's- you- you just proved my point, dawg.
The Gatekeeper (49:13.275)
Poor Taylor over here is like...
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (49:15.51)
Are you having sad boy hours right now, Taylor?
The Gatekeeper (49:17.512)
I am. ate dinner before this.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (49:21.906)
I was just thinking about where I would rank martyrdom via lion compared to all the other martyrdom methods out there. And I think lion's gotta be kinda high. One, historically savvy. Two, I don't think it's gonna take that long. I'm not gonna win.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (49:39.832)
Have you ever seen a cat kill something,
The Gatekeeper (49:39.972)
I do know
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (49:43.088)
It depends though man because like lions are I feel like lions have this instinct of like I'm gonna kill you fast so I can so I can drag you off the plains before the hyenas come around So I feel like they're they're not gonna play they're gonna straight to the jugular. Thank you Lord See in a few minutes
The Gatekeeper (50:02.203)
I don't know, man. think they're going to just... These guys were emaciated and all, you know, they weren't doing well. They were probably just... The second you stop moving, the lions probably start eating.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (50:18.056)
Yeah, I don't know. I know that jaguars, when they like hunt something, they like go right for the back of the neck and they just... Snapple, you know?
The Gatekeeper (50:27.961)
I don't think they have human biology classes for lions, right?
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (50:33.118)
I think the back of the neck is a similar vibe across the mammalian spectrum. Maybe I'm being optimistic, I don't know. Maybe it's gonna break your legs and watch you crawl. That's pretty.
The Gatekeeper (50:49.179)
just pin you to the ground and start eating.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (50:51.841)
Okay, okay.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (50:53.383)
Sorry, sorry Yeah
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (50:58.136)
You know what's funny is as I studied this it was like every time I was like, so this is where they killed Christians. It was like more scholars were like, actually, actually it was over here. And that was what I found after studying the Circus Maximus where they definitely killed Christians because Nero liked the Circus Maximus. But Nero had a circus of his own called the Circus of Nero. And this is how I'll close. I'll read you a little bit about the Circus of Nero because this ties in with
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (51:14.322)
Mm-hmm.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (51:26.584)
you'll see in the end kind of where we've been going recently with the pod. the construction of the Circus of Nero began in about 40 AD by the Emperor Caligula because it was begun by that emperor. also I'm reading from a blog called Still Current and the guy who wrote this, name is Ron Current and I really liked this. Shout out Ron.
Because it was begun by that emperor, it's also sometimes referred to as the Circus of Caligula. Caligula hadn't finished with its construction before his assassination in 41 AD, so its completion was either done by their emperor Claudius or by Nero himself. The Circus of Nero was an impressive building. It was 530 feet long and 295 feet wide. There was also another striking object in the circus. The Romans often decorated these spinae
with ornate statues, columns, and obelisks, and Nero's had the most spectacular obelisk of them all. In 37 AD, Caligula had brought from Egypt an 84-foot-tall, 326-ton red granite obelisk. Like, how did they move that that far? It's crazy to me.
The Gatekeeper (52:42.049)
Alien Technology.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (52:43.41)
Yeah, that's you're asking the right questions, Tommy.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (52:46.902)
Yeah, dude. Straight up Nephilim activity. This obelisk was placed at the very center of its spina. This is the largest non-inscribed obelisk ever to be taken from Egypt. And if you'd like to know what this wonder looked like, you can still see it today. It's in every photo of St. Peter's Square and is all that remains of the circus of Nero.
So the circus remained in ruins until about 326 AD when the Roman Emperor Constantine built the first basilica to St. Peter, the old St. Peter's Basilica. So if you remember when we talked about Constantine's building projects, there was an old St. Peter's and then there's new St. Peter's. So running parallel on the north side of the circus was believed to be the ancient Roman road, the Via Cornelia. Along this road, on the opposite side from the circus,
was a line of Roman tombs. Having tombs along their roads was a common practice for the Romans, and it was in one of these tombs tradition that St. Peter was placed after he was martyred in the circus. So it's very likely that Peter was actually killed in the circus of Nero.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (54:03.264)
interesting.
The Gatekeeper (54:03.653)
We'll find out, won't we?
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (54:06.318)
like one day, is that what you mean?
The Gatekeeper (54:08.697)
No, I mean like...
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (54:08.784)
No, it's cause this is Taylor's little spiel right now.
The Gatekeeper (54:12.155)
This is my current series.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (54:14.478)
yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, that's right. I can't wait to find out.
The Gatekeeper (54:16.293)
Yeah, we'll find out. Me neither.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (54:22.728)
Taylor's like, I'll find out when I research it.
The Gatekeeper (54:26.907)
That's right.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (54:27.95)
So Constantine wanted the apse of his basilica to be placed directly over this supposed tomb of St. Peter and so to accomplish this he covered over the line of tombs and built his basilica along the north side of the ruined circus. His architects even incorporated some of the circus' north buildings into the church. The old St. Peter's Basilica stood for over a thousand years but by the 16th century it had fallen into a grave state of disrepair.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (54:28.207)
you
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (54:57.762)
Kind of circle back all the way to your original question, John. I feel like that is kind of where some of the really cool like Christian recovery building projects went on where it's like Constantine's like, they killed Peter in that thing and like he's buried over there. All right, cool. Like that's where we're going to build the church.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (55:16.03)
Hmm. Yeah.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (55:21.08)
Well that's it, that's our story of the circuses in Rome.
The Gatekeeper (55:26.989)
I'm still just a little sad.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (55:29.17)
What are you so- let's process your feelings, Tay. What's going on in your little heart of hearts, man?
The Gatekeeper (55:34.433)
I don't know, the Romans were mean.
They were not very nice.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (55:41.768)
What is it? What is it? Is it the misery of the Christians that they experienced? Was it just the brutality of the onlookers? What's got you in the dumps, man? I wanna- let's walk through this.
The Gatekeeper (55:54.531)
I mean, I think it's pretty brutal.
I don't know, the whole ruling by power thing just, you know, really just makes you think what you have to do to rule by power, what the state does to maintain power.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (56:11.304)
Sure.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (56:15.576)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, because this, like we said...
The Gatekeeper (56:17.537)
And you know what happens when the church mixes with the state.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (56:22.558)
well alright, i love the trolling, i'm gonna go serious for a second though like, what fascinates me about this is like we said
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (56:32.792)
Taylor's like, call an ambulance, call an ambulance. For you.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (56:35.944)
but not for me! it's like, you know, we were talking about the images and the symbolism, like they weren't executing Christians like this because they were like, hmm, lethal injection or tiger injection? like, they weren't doing this for efficiency they were doing it to be like, we're going to embarrass these Christians
and we're going to show the Roman people that Christians do not embody the power of what we consider a true Roman citizen to look like. And so, yeah, I mean, this was a power move. This was propaganda. This was them exerting their cultural values. And it was, was, it was cruel. was depraved.
The Gatekeeper (57:27.547)
And it didn't work, which is crazy. But you guys remember the episode that you did in the BT days where you, BT stands for, yeah, before Taylor. But you guys did that episode on, I don't even remember who it was, but you quoted Abraham Lincoln because you were like, you didn't know who said it, but it was the idea that Christians were hard to rule because they fear no, they fear no man above God. I,
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (57:35.346)
The BT, you're such a freaking dork.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (57:55.43)
Right. Yeah. Yeah.
The Gatekeeper (57:57.795)
tried to find that quote for a paper for like two hours and I don't think it exists.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (58:00.766)
Mm-hmm.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (58:04.044)
It was a Roman Emperor.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (58:04.54)
Abraham Lincoln.
The Gatekeeper (58:06.105)
I couldn't find it, dude. I found the closest... I...
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (58:08.348)
I'm pretty sure it was Marcus Aurelius, but I also think I read it in a very lousy source and it has not been very-
The Gatekeeper (58:16.421)
There's a tomb in, I believe, Westminster Abbey from a guy who was deployed in India back in the day, and it says, he feared no man because he feared God more. And that is the closest I could get to your quote, but it still goes hard, doesn't it?
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (58:42.13)
No, it does. I mean, I think maybe I console myself a little bit by thinking of... I don't know, man. There's so many stories of martyrs where they're just like delighted. And they're just like... I have this theory, which I don't know if it's possible to test aside from being martyred myself, which... If I have to, I guess. But I really feel like...
When we are pressed into the dark depths of suffering that really bring us into that place that only Christ has like that oneness with us, then I think that's where the peace beyond understanding really kicks in, in like an overabundance. Like I think that when you're facing the darkest evil that man can throw at you,
The Gatekeeper (59:31.835)
Mmm.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (59:41.084)
and you're like, this sucks, but I submit and I say the same thing Jesus said, thy will be done, not my will be done, then I think you just get overwhelmed with peace. I hope that's true.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (59:54.626)
My pastor Jason was actually preaching on this past Sunday where he was using James 3, he talking about the wisdom that comes from heaven and from above and being peaceable is one of those things. And so was connecting that to Jesus' comments and the Sermon on the Mount of Blessed are the peacemakers. And just
everything the scriptures has to say about pursuing peace but he made the important distinction that even though we're supposed to make peace with our fellow man if we make peace with our with fellow man to the point that we're becoming an enemy of God then that's not the sort of peace that we're supposed to make and it really seems that a lot of these early Christians charted that course really well you know they weren't just like a nuisance to or an unnecessary nuisance to
the Romans. But they weren't going to make peace with them. We're not going to sacrifice to the emperor. We're not going to do your cult stuff. But we'll be here and love you, you know, we'll help out with problems in Rome. And sometimes the Romans go, we're just going to kill you. And so they just accept that. it does seem I liked how peaceful the Christians looked in that painting that we looked at, despite what they were about to experience.
The Gatekeeper (01:01:19.813)
you
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (01:01:25.502)
Hmm. You feel better, Taylor?
The Gatekeeper (01:01:28.549)
I just have the old hymn going through my head now. The wind peace. my gosh.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (01:01:34.287)
All sacred, had now woo-
The Gatekeeper (01:01:41.147)
I was thinking, it is well.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (01:01:44.508)
Hmm, that's a good one too. It is well. And it's well for us listeners. Well, that wasn't a good thing.
The Gatekeeper (01:01:46.393)
Yeah.
The Gatekeeper (01:01:52.955)
Normally we finish laughing and Tommy you're such a downer.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (01:01:55.854)
Oh dude, we were crying at end of the line. Sorry man.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (01:02:01.822)
It's alright.
The Gatekeeper (01:02:02.939)
Anyway, you guys should send us fan mail.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (01:02:06.878)
Yeah, we've been hitting that one pretty hard. Famile would be cool. Follow us on Spotify. Here's the thing, dude. Spotify has been hitting us with comments and stuff. It's been great. I don't even know if Apple podcasts exists, which is embarrassing because I am a part of the Apple, you know, cult of superiority. So I need you, I need you Apple users to start.
The Gatekeeper (01:02:09.925)
So anyway.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (01:02:34.312)
posting some reviews, make us look good. Don't hit us with four stars, okay, you jerks. Five or bust. Five or, delete my number, bro. That's what I'm saying.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (01:02:45.24)
John, don't we have a buy me a coffee set up?
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (01:02:50.022)
Yeah, and I don't think we've ever plugged it. But yeah, buy us a coffee. Here's the thing, bro. Here's us being totally honest. We did buy me a coffee because we didn't want to do Patreon because we wanted to give you guys everything for free because we care about you and we're Christians. But you can just drop us like 10 bucks and we'll have a coffee the next time we record.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (01:03:07.17)
Yeah. What's buy me a coffee, John.
The Gatekeeper (01:03:16.367)
It'll just go towards, it'll go towards, yeah, right.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (01:03:19.12)
It'll go towards like editing fees and our our hosting site and really all the expenses it costs to keep a podcast going. But yeah, if you give us money, then we'll keep doing what we're doing. If you don't give us money, it's our last episode and this is our bloods on your hands. Yeah, now we're the martyrs and you're the lion. How do you feel about that?
The Gatekeeper (01:03:40.667)
Tommy's over here drinking liquid death, just realized. Dude, this is the difference between, this is the difference between all of our convictions. John Simon wouldn't drink it, cause it's probably like expensive or whatever. You're like, I don't, I'm not spending money on that. I wouldn't drink it because it, you know, some witch came by the factory and like blessed it in the occult. And Tommy's like,
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (01:03:44.114)
man's rolling and dull, bro. He should be our number one subscriber.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (01:03:44.332)
Yeah.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (01:03:55.806)
Yeah, it's like $4.
The Gatekeeper (01:04:08.96)
I don't care! Meat sacrifice to idols? I'm the stronger brother! And chuck chuck chuck chuck chuck.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (01:04:13.678)
Hey Taylor, can we do a tattoo tour really quick?
The Gatekeeper (01:04:17.883)
of my tattoos. What does that have to do with your liquid death?
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (01:04:20.322)
Yeah. Do you have any tattoos that I would be able to you know, form a rebuttal based off of, or are they all a good Christian?
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (01:04:28.956)
He's all American style, brother. Yeah, it's all... Yeah.
The Gatekeeper (01:04:33.495)
I have a dude, honestly a tattoo tour would be too long.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (01:04:33.631)
dude, look at that.
So does that one to let your parishioners know that you are a wolf in sheep's clothing or what is that?
The Gatekeeper (01:04:42.669)
It's a warning against false teachers.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (01:04:45.614)
Okay.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (01:04:45.672)
But you're the only one who can see it, because it's on the top of your sleeve. So it's like for you.
The Gatekeeper (01:04:50.459)
Yeah. Yeah.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (01:04:51.704)
Dude, you know what you should do? You should go sleeveless next Sunday.
The Gatekeeper (01:04:56.571)
All right.
WeAffirmAgainsttheVape-acy (01:04:58.13)
leave listen Seattle. Alright, this is going too long. We have another episode to record. Team, we love you. We appreciate you. Buy us coffee or you'll never hear from us again. Bye everybody.
Weaffirmagainstthepapacy (01:05:08.62)
I'm blessed.
The Gatekeeper (01:05:08.731)
Bye bye.
