The Adventures of the Apostles: Gone Fishin' with Andrew

The lore surrounding the lives of the Apostles never ceases to amaze. People getting boiled alive (and surviving). Dudes getting thrown off the top of the Temple. Crazy stuff. 

But what if most of these crazy things are actually false? And what if nobody had a cool martyrdom? And what if Santa Claus is a FRAUD?

Well, you'll just have to listen to find out. Join Taylor and John as we continue our journey through the lives of the apostles to see what history has to say about their fates after the close of the biblical narrative. This week, we've got the brother of Simon Peter, Andrew. 

New podcast alert: Gout of My Mind 

Buy us a coffee: https://buymeacoffee.com/chumphistory

Chapters

• 0:00 Banter Banter Banter
• 12:26 Scatting Time
• 12:33 Scatting Time is Over
• 12:36 Let's Get to Andrew

Transcript

Hey, everybody, welcome to Church History for Chumps. My name is John Simon, and I'm
here with my good friends, Taylor. I put the con and congregational treadway. Hey,
I'll take that. That's not bad. That was off the Yeah, I had to I had to think
for a little bit. That's all we had to wait before I hit record Are you serious?
That's what you were thinking of? Yeah, okay guys. I can't make this up. He was
like hold on He was like hold on before we start and sat in silence for like 15
seconds.
I Just
I have a nickname doc, but it's dried up. So I had to I had to come up with the
one off the dome Well, no Tommy today, man. No Tommy, and I promise it's all of
our devoted Tom fans. We call him the Tomcats My gosh,
it's so good. He's not he's not booted. He just I don't know. He's somewhere
between his His small business and his pastor job and his mini travels and his
three kids. He's a little busy. So whatever he's on vacation.
Oh, and he's also literally out of town. He's in Birmingham, Birmingham, Alabama,
right? Yeah, we got to be careful with the accents. We got in trouble last time
Thomas wasn't here. Dude, I know. I'm just, I was so ready to send it. He's in
Birmingham, isn't he? Birmingham.
He's in Birmingham, Alabama. And I think he is in Barmingham. He's not in Oh,
that's in the lighting. I was just in Birmingham for a wedding a year ago and
Birmingham or Birmingham Birmingham. No, I just combined it to you.
I'm not sure what
Okay, I was in I was in the one Alabama. Um, dude, we we have a lot of shout
outs to do. Oh, I know I know I need to say chump nation Just fills my heart
with joy so often. So first I have to say We have Two buy me a coffee
subscribers, which I got I almost put that link on there as like a yeah Whatever
nobody wants to pay us to do what we do And then we got to two subscribers and
so I just want to say I'm not gonna dox you guys by saying your full names But
Serena, Thank you so much and Enoch Man,
I thought you were walking with the Lord. Well, I guess you are walking with the
Lord That's why you decided to give us money So thank you and Taylor has actually
prepared a couple high coups for you guys just to say how grateful we are
Taylor let her rip. I don't even know. I don't even know what a high coup is It's
five seven five bro it's not hard what about 393 it's no that's that's not even no
but you can't just break the rules of a high okay I get hold on hold on all I'll
do serena knock and serena okay you're I'm gonna do serena's I got Serena my gosh
you really won the Hey, ma 'am, thanks a bunch.
- Is ma 'am two syllables? - No, why would you interrupt? - You really won,
you really won the day. - Ma 'am, seven,
thanks a bunch, you rock.
Why are you syllable policing me, bro?
What did you think that ma - it's not ma -a -m, it's just ma -a -m. It's ma -a -m!
Do you have Enoch's ready? Cause he's waiting. Enoch
the OG. Good. Okay.
For ever in your
debt dog Okay All right, almost there five more
big. Thank you My guy
Not bad not bad. All right. All right. This is what we need the the little sound
of applause that that goes through We had we had quite a few people walking you
off the ledge to keep you from your Ben and Jerry's bender. I that was honestly
heart -whelming, heart -warming, heart -whelming, overwhelming and heart -warming,
yeah, overwhelming and heart -whelming, heart -whelming. Yeah. So I was very grateful
for all the homies that gave gave me that encouragement. I have an update on the
weight loss journey. What's your what's your update? So have I shared before that? I
have I have similar struggles to that of Charles Spurgeon
overweight and tobacco and depression I Keep going
Denominational Denominational despair well that one for sure. No my friends the gout.
You have gout? Yeah, dude, I've had gout for a while. Oh, man. And it's so so
recently, the flare ups have gotten so bad. Yeah, that I was like,
all right, I've got to figure this out finally. So anyway, a few months ago, like
four months ago, I get some medicine. Okay, get my medicine. Let's take it when you
have a flare up. Well
in Ethiopia, I had a flare -up. Thank God I had my medicine. So it wasn't too bad
But we got back and the flare -up never really went away What happened also when I
went when I got back from Ethiopia John Simon? Now you went to Zona. Well,
no, remember I was sick of bread and I was sick of being You started keto I
started keto Yeah, and my gout and I thought because I thought that gout was caused
by high fructose corn syrup So I was like, I'm gonna solve this right now. Well,
John Simon and dear listeners Brandy discovered a few days ago That keto is possibly
the worst diet you could have if if you have gout. And I just assumed that all
these foods weren't causing it because it had to have been the high fructose corn
syrup. - Yeah. - Well, long story short, I've basically had many gout flare -ups since
I started keto and I never made that connection. - Yeah. - So now we're changing the
diet around, which is why you caught me eating my like one sweet treat for the
day. It was of Toblerone. That's what, that's what I was eating when we got on the
call. And so I, I am no longer keto. I'm just eating somewhat clean and restricting
calories. Okay. Wow. But to my listeners, sharing me on very grateful.
I'm going to keep doing it for you guys. But if you don't, if someone does not
drop the comment Once a week, keep going, Taylor. I will smash that you binge.
No, I will smash four pints of Ben and Jerry's on camera on Instagram. Yeah.
But for now, thank you to Jackson. Thank you to Dan and thank you to L .M.
And if you want to follow Taylor's gout journey, we're actually launching a podcast
called Gout of My Mind. Taylor's going to host weekly. And it's really just going
to be a shot of his foot. It's it's our it's our soiree into video podcasting.
It's just going to be his foot and him talking over it. Right. Yeah. So hit
subscribe. Subscribe. Got in my mind. Get out of my mind. Yeah.
But I mean, if you guys want to support us and get a cool haiku shout out, you
can there's the link for buying me a a coffee at the bottom. Hit follow, hit rate,
hit. Only hit five stars when you hit rate. Hit five stars. Honestly,
John Simon will stare, not sleep and stare at the ceiling all night. If you give
us anything lower than five. I'm just thinking about how I'm going to pay my bills
next month with the price of podcasting, how badly it's been affected by the
tariffs, bro. Oh, man. Yeah. It's OK. OK. All right.
Well, Tay, what are we? What are we on today? Are we still in the Apostles, big
guy? We sure are. OK, what do we got? So first off,
no. First off, first off, we need to look at. Uh,
another piece of fan mail, a manual. Wrote. Wrote. Oh, that's right.
Yeah, manual wrote and I was very proud I could read that name because it was
written in Greek. Look at you pretending. You know Greek I didn't have to pretend
to that time Well, that's good. So Normally, how do we pick the Apostles that we're
gonna cover in this series John? Let's pick him out of the hat. Nope Does John
Simon get to pick the Apostles? No. Does Tommy get to pick the Apostles? Taylor,
Taylor picks. Okay. I pick. But this time, I rent. I am.
Yeah. I am weak when the precious fans ask for something.
So, like I said, if you made a request, absolutely not. I would have put that guy
to the very back of the list, but Emanuel asked for Andrew and Peter.
So the next two episodes are actually going to be we're going to have one episode
on Andrew and one episode on Peter. Yeah.
And Emanuel, you you are a lucky dog. You're getting a special request in.
So we're grateful with a special request and shadow to a manual too, because he's
from Belgium. And I went to Belgium for my honeymoon a couple of years ago. Did
you really? Yeah. Why would I lie about that? Well, did you see? Did you see any
tulips? I think that's the Netherlands, bro.
Hey, Ray, could you cut that part out?
Oh, man. I mean, I'm sure they have tulips in Belgium. I don't have Belgium. They
have tulips in Kroger, they have tulips in Kroger in South Dakota. That's, you know,
I know they're everywhere, but I mean, they're they're like native to the
Netherlands. Yeah, that's literally why Tulip as a doctrines of grace thing.
Like it was it was made by the Dutch reformed. Yeah, in Belgium, not in Belgium.
You freaking dork, bro. You're going to talk about sinning, weren't you? You're like,
Emmanuel, I'm so cultured. I know how to say your name. I love Belgium. That's my
favorite, uh, you know, it's my favorite country in Asia. Isn't blue bunny Belgium?
Once you're going to talk about sinning and drinking Belgium beer. Yeah, Belgium
beer, it'll make you think twice about any beer that you ever consume. I'm assuming
that Emmanuel being from the Greek church that he, he imbibes at least, you on non
-fasting days, but Belgium is great. I love Belgium. Very, very beautiful architecture,
some wonderful churches, great weather. We'd love to go back. So anyways-- - The
windmills, right? They had the windmills? (laughing)
- I bet Dutch people don't even like that you're doing that. I think they have like
a rivalry. I don't think Belgians and Dutch people like love each other 'cause
Belgium is like split. Like half of it speaks French, the other staff speaks Dutch.
So look, man, I am ignorant in Malacan. I know,
bro. I know it was it was hard enough in your Africa. I know it was. And now I
love it. I want to go back. They're my people. All right. Who are we talking
about? So, so, so we're part three of our mini series. What happened to the
Apostle?
You're You really not gonna scat with me Scatting time is over bro. We're at 12
minutes. Yeah, so we've covered Simon Matthew yep,
the author formerly known as Levi James the first martyr little James or James the
younger and
Not apostle, but super respected James the brother or cousin just We're just I was
gonna say or cousin according to a certain group of Christians. Mm -hmm. And now Now
That's a good point Now now we're on Andrew Andrew,
so let's start with Andrew. What do you know about Andrew JS? What do you know?
What's Andrew? I think all I know about him is how he was martyred Which I
probably shouldn't say because you always get mad at me for going getting ahead of
no Go ahead and go ahead and throw it out there. We'll see the one that was like
murdered on a on like an X shaped cross as Tradition says as tradition says yes,
and I think he was killed in
Egypt no no no no no I know very little about Andrew, actually.
Yeah, I don't know. So I got X shaped cross. That's about it. I'm dry. X K X. So
the tradition claim is X shaped cross in Greek, but we're going to get to that.
Okay. So Andrew was, uh, his Peter's brother.
He was also a fisherman and, uh, we don't get much else about Andrew from the text
directly. We have at Mark 1, 16 to 18, passing alongside the Sea of Galilee.
He saw Simon and Andrew, the brother of Simon, casting a net into the sea where
they were fishermen. And Jesus said to them, "Follow me, and I will make you become
fishers of men." And immediately, they left their nets and followed him.
So there you have very early on one of the earliest disciples called.
Dude Simon and John are just the pettiest disciples. They'll always be like, oh,
just so you know Yeah, he's with me like he's like my my brother.
Yeah, right Was so he was a Fisherman, but he was also a disciple of John the
John the Baptist. Yeah, I'm getting right there I said verse this is Yeah,
he heard John speak and follow Jesus was Andrew Simon, Peter's brother, verse 41, he
first found his own brother, Simon, and said to him, we have found the Messiah,
which means Christ, which is like an insanely early, like in the narrative,
okay, in the narrative Christological claim. So he said,
we found the Messiah, he brought him to Jesus, Jesus looked at him and said, you
are Simon, the son of John, You shall be called Cephas, which means Peter so Andrew
brings Peter to Jesus
Mm -hmm, which I think is very interesting. So Andrew was an early adopter
Andrew Andrew buys the iPhone on release day, right? Claims Jesus is Lord very
early. Mm early. So here's the thing, though, he wasn't actually quite in the inner
circle, but he was present at Mount of Olives, so he had a little bit of extra
insight. Okay. So remember, our source here is Sean McDowell's newest work,
The Fate of the Apostles, Root Lich Publishing. And if you're academically minded and
have a few bucks, I would really recommend this book. So everything that we are
talking about is in this book except like 1500 more pages of detail. Maybe not that
many, but it's a lot.
So Sean McDowell, if you listen for some reason, or one of your students listen,
which is statistically far more likely, we'd love to have you answer. We'd love to
have you on. And if you'd like to buy this book, go to chumpnation .org. To stop
sending - People to fake websites. - Chump 54 for a 54 % discount.
- Now check the Google hits and be like, see Chump Nation or talk about gout or
whatever.
- Gout of my mind. - Gout of my mind, yeah. Talk a gout it as it doesn't work.
- Talk a gout it. - Doesn't work. Okay, so here's McDowell. This is an interesting
point from McDowell. He writes this on Andrew Andrews mentioned three times in the
Gospel of John and every time Andrew appears in John He's bringing someone to Jesus
So the first time he brings Peter to Jesus is 141 to 42 what we just read in the
second instance Andrew brings to Jesus a small boy who has five loaves of bread and
two fish six eight You guys know that story and then the third time involves some
Greeks who want to worship Jesus They first approach approach Philip who tells Andrew
about their request and Andrew decides that the two of them should tell Jesus
together And that's John 12 20 to 22 So you kind of have this like early setup
even in the biblical narrative of Andrew as the Evangelist right yeah,
Yeah, we have we have that from the biblical text now. We have From trying to
figure out where he went on his missionary work. We actually have Eusebius in his
ecclesiastical histories Three which early 4th century so early 300s and this was
written These facts are related by origin in the third volume of his commentary on
Genesis. So remember readers, a lot of original sources have been lost but people
like Eusebius and other folks quote them and are essentially preserving them. So I'm
reading what is in Ecclesiastical History 3,
but Eusebius is citing origin and a lost work on work on his commentary on Genesis.
So we're retracting JS. We're tracking. Yeah. Yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you. So
This is what you see be a said origin said Andrew went to Cynthia Which is
essentially?
Southern southern Russia, so oh wow, so Andrew Andrew Andrew Andrew went to Cynthia
So here's the thing origin is Origen writing would have been early,
like third century, late second century, right? So,
so we're close. But remember, what's our what's our like kind of barometer that
we're looking for with these sources? Living, living, living, living history.
Living memory, very close. You're so close. You're so close. Rusty. So,
Origen is really close in that window. Okay. Yes. So,
then you have Eukaryos of Lyons, which is late 4th century, early 5th century. He's
echoing this, and I looked really hard to try to find McDowell's exact source that
he's pulling from. I could not. And then you Pseudo Hippolytus on the 12th,
which is early third century. He says this and remember, I don't know if you guys
have talked about it before, but so Hippolytus was like that famous bishop of Rome,
who had a bunch of works attributed to him. But then the modern discussion is that
they he did not write all of them. So he not write all this. So this is one of
pseudo Hippolytus. He says, Andrew preached to the Scythians and Thracians and was
crucified, suspended on an olive tree at Petrae, a town in Achaia,
and there too, he was buried.
So as I said, this pseudo Hippolytus is our source here,
which is an unknown author.
that had been these unknown authors were previously incorrectly ascribed to Hippolytus
of Rome. Oh, interesting. Okay. Yes. Okay. So now we have Tertullian talking about
this. And this is his answer. This isn't his answer for the Jews chapter seven.
So This is a longer quote, but I kind of want to I want to read this quote and
then talk about it for a little bit We're gonna go on a tiny rabbit trail because
this is a good one. So this chapter seven for whom have the nations believed?
Parthians Meads Elamites and they who inhibit Mesopotamia Armenia Frigia Cappadocia and
they who dwell in Pontus and Asia and Pamphylia, Terriers in Egypt,
and Inhabitors of the region of Africa, which is beyond Cyrene. Romans and
Sojourners, yes, and in Jerusalem, Jews, and all other nations. As for instance,
by this time, the varied races of the Galatians and manifold confines of the Moors,
all the limits of the Spains and the diverse nation of the Gauls, and the haunts
of the Britons, inaccessible to the Romans, but subjugated to Christ, and of the
Samaritans, and Dacians, and Germans, and drumroll,
and Scythians, which is where we think Andrew went.
And the quote says, "And of many remote nations, and of provinces, and islands,
many to us unknown, and which we can scarce enumerate. So two things here.
Okay. So he does not attribute Scythian missions to Andrew directly.
But the point is, you have Tertullian writing late second century, early third,
that the Scythians had become Christians. Okay. And then we have, like I said,
we have the pseudo -hippolytus source saying that Andrew did go to the Scythians.
You unplugged your mic there, big guy.
This is what John sounds like. This is what poor John sounds like. All right,
so we have two things from this quote from Origins. So one, he doesn't say directly
that Andrew went to the Scythians. But he does say that the Scythians are indeed
Christian. They have some Christians. And he is writing late second, early third,
which is once again right outside the window of what? At living memory.
Thank you. Yes. And then we combine that with Pseudo Hippolytus on the 12, which is
also very close to that window, who said that He says Andrew went to the Scythians.
So we're seeing some movement here. They just in those two sources alone were like,
OK, there's something maybe. Now, the other thing that I want to talk about this
quote is if it's a little off topic, but it's so good because Tertullian basically
lists off like this massive amount of people in these very different cultures and
people groups saying, he's writing to, you know, it's an answer for the Jews.
One of his points is that like, if Jesus wasn't God, how come so many people
everywhere are rapidly believing in him? Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
And he just goes through and lifts off all these is that people are becoming
Christians. Mm hmm. So it's a good one. Yeah,
I like that. And the civilians, I mean, this was I don't know, I'm trying to pull
up a map, but yeah, this was not really.
But were they were they? I mean, I'm assuming they were they were under like Rome's
Rome's Territory, right? Yeah. Yeah, but man. Yeah,
this this looks like it's a ways out. That's far. It's far. Yeah, so you have
Tradition puts Andrew in Greece Which is a lot of that is recorded in the time
period of living memory So we don't have time to dive into every source once again
We'll say it again is - There are so many sources, there's so many reconstructed
sources during this time period. And for those of you that are like interested in
this scholarly like patristic era, it's really good to familiarize yourself with the
sources. And then as you know, we do Sean McDowell's Rule of Living Memory, that
really lets us kind of construct our own narratives, even without having to refer to
guys like Sean McDowell. - Yeah. - Now I'm a peasant, so I have to use Sean
McDowell. But this is kind of how they do it. I asked one of our professors at
church, she teaches at CBU and I asked her a couple of months ago if she had
heard of it was one of the books that we referenced. And she said, "Taylor, I'm
going to be honest with you. I mostly only read like original sources." And I was
like, that's why you're smart. And I was like, her expertise is Anselm,
which we are like so far from getting to in the show. - Oh yeah, dude. He's like
a thousand or not quite a thousand, but he's a while way. Yeah, I believe Anselm
is like 12th century. Is he 11 he's like one of the most influential medieval
Christian theologians. Yes, correct. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, that's going to be a fun. You
know what? It's gonna be a fun journey. We are fact checking Anselm date.
I'm gonna say uh uh 11 20. 1120. Oh, it's 1033.
Oh, OK. With the 100 years. Yeah, we both thought 11. So that's all right. Yeah.
Yeah. OK. So anyway, that's, you know, when you have all these sources, this is
really like the best way to to do this. If you can, if you have the time or or
you're stuck with me and John and Tommy saying this is what what they say.
So anyway, what's the juicy stuff about about Andrew? What do we know? Like, well,
what are the what are the cool? What are the I want to hear some legends. I got
the legend. It's coming up, brother. Don't even worry. I need my fix, bro. Let me
set up. Let me set up the legend real quick. All right. All right. All right. So
acts of Andrew, which is a lost but reconstructed early work.
Okay, and this one has Andrew dying his famous crucifixion so This source may have
been written within the window of living memory Okay, and this is taking place in
Patras Greece where tradition has that he died So the story begins with Andrew
casting a demon out of a servant boy at the request of Maxim Maximilia,
wife of the proconsul.
Agities. Mm hmm. And so after witnessing the exorcism,
we have Stratocles, Agities' brother. And Maximil,
at Maximilla, not Melia, Maximilla, become, they become Andrew's disciples. Mm hmm.
This is where it starts to get wild. Andrew encourages Maximilla to resist her
husband's sexual advances and devote herself solely to God.
Wait, so she can't, she can't, she can't sleep with her husband? Yes. Why not?
Don't, because she's going to devote herself solely to God. Don't worry, it gets
crazier. She's calling her to the, he's calling her to the nunnery.
Emilia deceives H .T.'s by sending a servant girl
Uselia to sleep with him for eight months. Are that is he in?
Is he in Scythe at this time? Is that what we're assuming this is? Patrice, Patrice
Greek. He's already went to the he already did his mission work. OK, gotcha. Gotcha.
OK. He's he's he's back. He's at his new Gotcha. All right. And as tradition says,
his last home base. Hmm. All right. So she sends this Maximilla lady deceives her
husband and sends a servant girl to sleep with him. And this goes on for eight
months.
OK. And now when I just like it like an every night, like he just whenever he's
like, oh, yeah, I'm I'm feeling I'm feeling like being with my wife, she's like,
Oh, give me one second. Let me go to the bathroom and then they just swap outfits.
I I don't know how they did it. But I would let's yeah, do that. And then add
some like Benny Hill music. Yeah, this is like some threes company like sitcom
shenanigans. Or like, she's like, oh, why don't you put on this blindfold? Yes,
exactly. Right. Or maybe three are Rated three companies. So eight months this
happens eight months this goes on and then agitese learns that Andrew influenced his
wife and he He apprises Andrew and then demands Maximilla sleeps with him and give
him children in exchange for Andrew's release. Oh Wow, okay.
All right. Mm -hmm. And then Andrew refuses to renounce this, like renounce his
stance and he chooses martyrdom.
Okay. Yeah. Okay. And then he's crucified without nails. He's left to suffer and
possibly eaten by dogs. Hmm. Because he's put on the big X -shaped cross.
This source does not say anything about an X -shaped cross. So where do they, how,
How do they kill him then? They crucified him. Oh, just a normal plain Jane
crucifixion. Correct. OK. Except they didn't use nails, supposedly. They just wrapped
him, wrapped him up there, wrapped him up there. And so he like apparently hangs in
there for a long time, like four days. And he speaks. He speaks from the cross and
preaches from it for like all four days, as the source says, and a crowd.
The crowd demands his release, but Andrew refuses the pardon and dies on the cross.
So the crowd, they want him, they're like, hey, he didn't do anything wrong. He
just got a little involved in this guy's marriage, but it's not a big deal.
Correct. And he's like, I'm fine. I can stay up here. Yeah, let me die for the
Lord.
And then after his death, Maximilla leaves AGT's,
and then guess what AGT's does?
What does he do? Commit suicide. I was going to guess that, but I was like, that's
too dark. I don't want to bring you to the table. No, it's just, I mean-- That's
exactly what happened. This bothers How many were this is our sixth disciple and we
already have our sixth like Apostle story? Yeah, if you count the original right
because James of the brother of John wasn't even like an OG disciple not yet. Yeah.
So this is this is our fifth Apostle who is like has a suicide involved in his
legend of martyrdom. What a weird story though. Like I, I almost feel like,
like stories that are really silly and strange feel like they're more legitimate
because it's not like he was like, "Repent for the day of the Lord." And Adjutus
is like, "No, man, I'm going to crucify you." He's like, "Hey, hey, um,
you should be celibate and stop sleeping with your husband." And she's like, "Ah,
that's really awkward, but I guess so." That's in for eight months. That's just
there's not a lot of heroism in that story. No, and you're skipping the part where
She Andrews like yeah, yeah, yeah, and then let's have the servant girl do it.
Yeah, that's the weirdest part Yeah, so there's not Okay, okay, and then real quick
to finish the story. So I just commit suicide and then if you remember in Matthew's
story while the king, the king committed suicide was because he executed Matthew.
And then Matthew was like, JK, I'm back, baby. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes.
So that that does not happen in this story. He's he's gone. He's gone. No response.
No response. So here's here's the odd thing for this source.
And Eusebius also has something to say about this, but we'll we'll we'll turn to
old uncle Eusebius in a minute. Okay. Uh, as you said, there's not really a lot of
heroism. There's not a lot of virtue. And then you got to think like, okay, this,
if this is an early source, as they suspect, what were these people valuing to
write this story? Mm hmm. Like, what's the world view of the people that are
writing this? And I still see, I do think celibacy was, like, overvalued by whoever
accepted this story and then moved on. You know, our Catholic listeners might be
like, "No, look, this is like, celibacy is like, super high calling. We talked about
perpetual virginity last episode. Obviously, Catholic priests are supposed to be
celibate. The nuns are supposed to be celibate." So there's, like, a little bit of,
like, a difference in value.
And I don't want to like, you know, what's the heresy when you're like overemphasize
spirit and under -emphasize flesh? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Is that a Uticaeanism?
No, no, no, it's Dosti. No, it's the opposite of Dostism. Gosh dang it. I don't
know. Well, Dostitism is when they thought that Jesus was mostly spirit and not
flesh. Yeah, that was that was ghost Jesus. Yes. But regardless, this is like in a
similar vein. And like I get it guys, the flesh is weak, all of that.
But it's like a Gnosticism. Yeah, that's there we go. Yeah,
man, that was a bummer. Yeah, one heresy.
Flesh is evil, spirit's good. Yeah, but it's so like, in my mind, I'm like, if...
wouldn't Andrew just have her leave the marriage all together and maybe join a
monastic community? I mean, I don't know. This is very, very early in the church
history. So maybe monastic communities aren't a thing yet. But yeah, there's just,
like, I agree. I think the bigger question is like, what, who was listening to this
story and was like, yeah, that's my apostle. you know, that's probably the bigger
story. - Yeah, and McDowell doesn't mention this, but I feel like it's worth noting
that like whatever values are supposed to be coming from this legend, this story,
this source, like kind of contradict Paul's teaching on marriage. - Sure,
sure. - Right.
- And so here, so Eusebius in Ecclesiastical histories, chapter 25,
sub point six. That's actually where you can find it. It just like sounding as
pretentious as possible. He's writing on accepted writings and he goes down the list
of like what's accepted and what gets like not accepted and why.
And he says this, but we have never the less felt compelled to give a log of
these also distinguishing those work which according to Ecclesiastical tradition are
true and genuine and commonly accepted from those others from those others which
although not canonical but disputed are yet the same time known to most
Ecclesiastical writers. So that's essentially saying like what do the churches say is
true scripture? Yeah. And What do we know is like attributed to our super early
guys like Clement right or Ignatius so that's the not disputed stuff But he says we
have felt compelled to give this catalog in order that we might be able to know
Both these works and those that are cited by the heretics under the names of the
apostles including for instance Sush book as the Gospels of Peter, Thomas,
Matthias, or any others beside them. And here we go, the Acts of Andrew. - Okay.
- And John and the other apostles, which no one belonging to the secession of
ecclesiastical writers has deemed worthy of mention in his writings. So Eusebius is
basically saying, "This is not, this is garbage." Yeah.
He's not a big fan. He's not a big fan. Yeah.
So where does the story of the cool crucifixion come from? Well, you keep asking
the really hard question. It's the only question I'm just going to I'll just get
I'm just going to I'm going to jump ahead then. I I really am sorry to everybody
listening And to John Simon, but okay,
the earliest reference for the X is 12th century,
right? So that's living memory, right? No, 12th. Oh, you're trolling me.
Dude, I would have loved it if you committed to that bit, just to maintain it.
12th Century. Yeah, so that's way too late. Yeah. Yeah, it's super. It's impossible.
It's it's completely impossible. And there's a couple good reasons. So first off
If you guys are like jaw dropped right now Put pick your drop back up.
Okay. So it's a cool looking icon. It's a cool looking icon It's a great symbol if
you want to read a specific book It's not available digitally, but you can get it
for cheap on Amazon for less than like 15 bucks. It's called the Cross of St.
Andrew from Ursula Hall, and this is what McDowell references.
And here is his quote while referencing Hall's book. This is in the notes section
at the end of the chapter. So, Death by Crucifixion shows up in the earliest
accounts, the Acts of Andrew, okay? So that's what we just read. Crucifixion was a
common penalty for criminals and other enemies of the state. And so it's entirely
believable, Andrew was crucified for either creating disturbances or upsetting the pro
-console as the Acts of Andrew reports. Maybe not the specifics, right? Yet,
the tradition that Andrew was crucified on an X -shaped cross is almost certainly
false.
- Mm -hmm, I know. - It's really distressing. - It's extremely distressing.
- And St. Andrew's cross, like the blue cross, isn't that,
like, didn't that, like, that is,
that's a pretty
Like, isn't it? Oh, yeah. It's called a it's called a saltier a crux a crux de
Cousada. Yeah. Yeah. That's why I was like a little like dancing around it because
I knew it was going to be like the big reveal and I felt I know you kept asking
about it. That's all I cared about. I know. I know. And I was like, I'm going to
have to take this away from him.
Yeah, so Here here's the thing about this like acts of Andrew.
This is a point that McDowell makes Just because you see be as thinks that the
acts of Andrew is theological garbage As we've already sort of dived into a little
bit that doesn't necessarily mean that All of its history is wrong okay So I want
you to think if, if you're embellishing a story,
if it's known early on that Andrew died in Greece and was crucified in Greece,
it, it's, that's where, that's where like the historicity comes in. And then you
come in and develop like this Crazy extra story, but it has a little bit.
Yeah, I love a little bit. A little bit. Yeah. Dunk the whole thing in super glue
and just threw it in a container of glitter. And shake,
shake some glitter over it. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. OK, so.
Here is here's McDowell's quote on this. I cannot believe that the earliest
traditions of the works and fate of the apostle Andrew, an important and well -known
figure in the first and second centuries, were entirely fabricated, unconnected to a
reliable tradition. So it's kind of like we said, like you have like,
this is what happened, and then you have the homie that's like, but actually. Yeah.
Do you hear about how we talked to that lady about not sleeping with her husband.
Yeah, did you hear about that? I had the servant girl. It was a whole thing. A
whole thing. They had him up. He was talking about it. But they had him up there
for four days. He preached the entire time. Yeah, dogs were eating him. He's like
shaped like an X instead of a T. Well, that was somebody coming along much later.
Much later. I know, dude, it's such a bummer. Here's the problem that I'm having
with your entire series, Taylor. - That's what, I'm the bad news guy? - Yeah,
exactly, you're the bad news guy. You're like, this is a 12 -part series about why
Santa Claus isn't real. - Oh no. - That's what this is. And you're just breaking my
heart week after week. I'm like, but, but, but, but, but, but, Taylor, St. Peter
was crucified upside down, right? And you just like put your hand on my shoulder
like son, I just need I need you to sit down for a second. OK, so I don't want
you to I'm not even want you to say a word. There's no spoilers. I know. No,
because this is not his episode. And I don't want to hear a word because I'm
already because I'm already in a bad mood. OK, I'm already I'm already worked up.
So a little a little a little tidbit here is we were going to do to we were
going to do Andrew and Peter together. But the amount of material involved in Peter
is like its own episode. Yeah. And so don't worry next time.
I'm I'm no spoilers, but we're going to talk a lot about where the tradition for
the upside down fiction comes from, we're going to talk about a lot. So just just
hang in there. Tommy will be with us. He'll keep you company. I'm sure it comes
from the tradition of it actually just freaking happening, right? Right. As as did
all other traditions,
like the the fancy little undersea church where Clement died.
That's right. Uh, and Matthew coming back from the dead. Right. Yes.
Oh, man. So, you know how we, we try to end every section on the verdict.
So like for sure. Andrew did mission work. I,
you can even, you even see it as like a character feature from John's gospel. Mm
hmm. Like showing, okay, look, this guy's mission minded. He's the bringer. Yes,
that's such a I just said that like so Baptist right there Andrews Andrews mission
-minded Andrews mission -minded he his heart was on fire for the Lord's heart was on
fire I'm we're gonna walk through three separate instances where we're introduced to
this Andrew fellow Mm -hmm. I'm actually now. I'm actually turning into a Baptist
preacher. Okay. We've got the journey of Andrew We've got the juxtaposition of
Andrew, and we've got the John belovedness of Andrew.
Say what you want about Baptist preachers. They're good at alliteration. Here's the
thing, you're going to walk away remembering every single one of those points. I
know. I know. Yeah. There is something about low church. There's just something.
You know, I think low church is like a slur. You guys should just it's just - It's
just church. - No, I'm fine with it. - Loach, you want to be a little grimy?
- Yeah, yeah. But anyway, martyrdom,
this is McDowell's verdict, more probable than not. So there's more sources in that
time period that we looked at the good ones, kind of pushing the scale over that
way. So I can tell you, dear listeners, that there are like secular historians that
obviously it's like their life's work to try to prove that Christians are dumb and
have been dumb the whole time. So they try to like poke holes in everything. But
much like a lot of the arguments from Bart Ehrman just don't hold up in the court
of law, a lot of these don't either. And, you know, I'm a big fan of fair history
and even just the sources that we looked at, pseudo -hypolitis, and I said,
I pronounced that right, pseudo -hypa, I'm scrolling back. Yeah, pseudo -hypolitis, good
job, Taylor. Pseudo -hypolitis, and then UCB is quoting origin.
Those are so close to the window of living memory right then and there, and there's
a couple other random little things. So yeah, I think that verdict is fair that,
well, let me, let me, let me ask this though, like the, I would imagine a secular
historian would say, well, the problem is not living memory. The problem is that we
can't trust Christians to tell their own stories because they have their own agendas.
So then that's an easy rebuttal. Okay. Then who do you trust?
Because because like every fifth grade textbook is just filled with a lot of
assumptions. So like I don't want to get into like some knowledge crisis of like
what can be known, what can't be known. But the reality is is like Christopher
Columbus sailed the ocean blue in 1492 or however the song goes and like Who is it
the Italians paid for it, right? Mm -hmm. Yeah, you know, where's it Spain? So it's
the Spanish Yeah, it was the Spanish. Sorry the Spanish paid for it and we're gonna
make the Spaniards pay for it So it's focused this is this is why we need Tommy.
I would never would have dared said that if Tommy was here. Okay, so that claim
alone, which is like I said that was like second great history for me. Yeah. Dude,
that the amount of sources and things that you need to look at and just to verify
it. It's it's significant. And that was a much more recent. And there's been a lot
less like gatherings and book burnings. And there was a whole middle is between
this, right? Yeah, transitions of powers between kingdoms. So what we claim to know
about the ancient Romans and the ancient world, there's a lot more taught.
Sure. As fact, then that has more or less, far less evidence than what Christians
have for their things. And I think McDowell's book Is so unbelievably fair he will
bring up counter arguments all throughout and he will say but here's why Don't think
this stands. Yeah, and then we're also not afraid to say Alright guys,
I know we all love the cross of st. Andrew But it's probably pure legend Yeah,
so we need to be willing to be academically honest in this world. And I get that.
And I guess it does make a lot of sense that the farther you are to history,
the farther you are from the point of history, the less reliable it is, which goes
to show that if you're closer to it, then it's more reliable. And then I guess you
have to start asking the questions of, well, on what basis Do we believe this is
reliable on what like for what reason could this person like Desire what would it
benefit them? to Not be completely honest about this. I get it I'm not I'm not
saying you know go secularists tear down the church But I I do think from a
historical standpoint like having Because I'm thinking like you know There's plenty of
things that other religious scholars say about their own religious history that we
can look at and say I don't think that's true I think that's that I think that
falls apart immediately. So I mean, I will say this I think any truth claim is
worth investigating Absolutely, it should it should withhold scrutiny. Yeah, and
Christianity has been under a microscope orthodox. Let's let's let's also just be
really clear here Orthodox Christianity has been under a microscope for basically the
last 2000 years. I mean, especially since the Enlightenment when people used started
using rationale and the scientific method to qualify and disqualify things.
And there was a very much crisis of faith. Yeah. Yeah. The podcast is so far from
that, but I cannot wait to talk about my boy, Kierkegaard. Yeah.
Who? Who is speaking of objectivity? It's so fascinating to read Kierkegaard and say,
I don't care about objectivity. I care about whether a man's soul is transformed. So
there's a thing about, dude, when we get to Kierkegaard, I hope that we're in our
like forties. I hope that we're like dropping our kids off at high school. Like
Kierkegaard is so, so, so, so far away. I know. I know.
Like I was asking our librarian. So one, our faculty are so unbelievably supportive
of this podcast. They like handful of them ask me how it's going. I was talking to
our librarian who is a nerdy Baptist historian like myself.
And he said that I asked him I said there's so many sources that I'm finding like
so many I had no idea existed and I said after the fall of Rome do the amount of
sources lighten up and he was like no it gets denser
like, oh man, I just, you know, we have this kind of like misnomer about the
Middle Ages, right? Like when I say like, what do you think about the Middle Ages?
What are they also called? The dark ages, the dark ages, right? So there's like
this idea that, well, in the dark ages, people just stopped writing and being smart
and just became like surf peasants, you know, money Python,
when then they're just like, they're just like digging for mud. They're just like
collecting mud. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So like that's our vision of the Dark Ages and
that's just like not what was happening. I mean, yeah, some of the sharpest
theologians that we that we're very influential on the faith that we have today were
from the so -called Dark Ages, right? Right. Our Catholic listeners are like Aquinas.
Yeah. We like Aquinas. He's cool. So yeah, we've got some, we've got, we've got a
lot to get through in the podcast over many years, possible lifetime. But all that
to say, he definitely Andrew, St. Andrew did mission work and St.
Andrew was more probably than not martyred. Would you call him the first Baptist?
Andrew. Yeah. Why? Because of his emphasis on on missions.
No. What? They all did missions. Well, not all of them. I mean,
but they didn't all get to Russia. No, that's true. Maybe he was the first Baptist.
Come on, man. I'm throwing you a softball here. All right. Fine. I'll claim an
apostle for Pete's sake. I don't know. This is easy offering. Yeah. I don't know.
But speaking of Baptist admissions, listeners, I have to write a paper on early
Baptist missions to Native Americans and I found a really fascinating fella Hold on
a second. You have to write a paper and then give it to the Native Americans Yep
No, I'm writing a historical analysis Okay,
of early Baptist missions to Native Americans. So my question is Is Are the are the
are the listeners interested in a little jump through time? Just let us if you guys
are if you guys want it Let me know and we'll have Taylor Taylor Taylor 1500 years
I know you're a little new to the show. Okay, and I love that if I could I'd
pinch your little cheek right now Uh -huh, but here's the thing big dog. Uh -huh.
You don't you can't you can't just let the listeners democrat this whole situation
so that you can spill your Baptist propaganda. No, no,
no, man. You want to jump through history so we can we can get you have to you
have to let me you have to let me use my then before you know it then then
August is going to be full of all these recordings of and suddenly we're a Baptist
show. - No, it would just be one. - And I'm not gonna let you do that. - It would
just be one jump through time for a brief moment. - Oh, it always starts with just
one. That's probably what Agapis told Andrew before he stapled him to an X -shaped
cross. Yeah, we're not doing this, man. I'll let the listeners say what they want
to, but I'm opposed to this. Anyways, it is 8 p .m.
I I'm going to have dinner. Listener, I love you. Taylor, I love you a little
more, 'cause I've known you longer. - Aw. - Thanks for hanging out with us, you
guys. - Yeah, thanks, and we behaved. We behaved without Tommy. - We did a real good
job. Yeah, Thomas, are you proud of us? - Hell, he doesn't listen. Or he does, he
like puts it on the background. - I'm still mad when he said that he listens to
our show at two times speed. - I know. Brandy is wonderful, but she has been
staring at me in the corner of your screen like a little ghost for the past half
hour And it is very distressing If I didn't know that you were married, I would
think that that was the woman that died in your apartment, bro Would you tell me
would you tell me? I wouldn't tell you. Oh, I wouldn't want to scare you, bro I
like you too much. All right. I'm gonna go. All right, brother. Love you guys