The Adventures of the Apostles: Was Peter Really Crucified Upside Down???

For the past few weeks, we've been covering the stories of the Apostles after the biblical narrative concludes. 

And...we can be honest. This series has gone over like watching a jaded old magician spoiling a handful of classic magic tricks in front of an unsuspecting child's birthday party.

But sometimes that's just how history is. 

But what about Saint Peter? We all know the story: at his hour of martyrdom, he begs his oppressors to be crucified upside down because he was unworthy of a death so similar to his Lord.

But was it TRUE? Tune in to find out. 

And hey, in case no one's said it to you yet today, you look great. I don't know what it is. You're just really glowing. 

Buy us a coffee: https://buymeacoffee.com/chumphistory

Chapters

• 0:00 Pre-show Banter
• 11:06 The Good Stuff

Transcript

Hey everybody, welcome to Church History for Chumps. My name is the Lighthouse of
Alexandria, John Simon. We've got Thomas, the Great Wall of China Duel, and Machu
Picchu, it's Taylor Treadway. Why aren't Oh, the only one that gets like a Christian
one. We make the rules, man. We get you literally do.
Watch you choose Christian. It was where is that? And like, it's in South America.
There's way more Christians in South America than in Egypt. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a modern
man, aren't you? Now, I'm pretty sure I just saw a video last week of them doing
like some some old they like reenacted a Mayan human sacrifice at Machu Picchu like
a couple weeks ago dude it was probably a bunch of guys from Austin doing it like
they they weren't they weren't even like Peruvians I bet or actually as Machu Picchu
in Peru it is that was good yeah yeah I bet you it wasn't even the native
Peruvians they're probably just some some dudes from Quebec speaking of Peru just
last night
Dude, you're gonna out your boy at first off. They're collectibles second off
You're gonna insult a man who knows how to build a play set by himself and And in
disrespect his hobbies, I'm just saying man something about Tommy's not out building
play sets. He's watching tiktok and apparently Chilling on Google Maps every night.
You never you've never been on Google Maps and just and just explored the world
Bro, I I get that fixation. I kind of love it. My favorite thing is to go to
ghost towns in Arizona. Oh Yeah So there's there's a there's a there's an a website
you guys should check out. It's kind of it's kind of fun Actually, it's called
ethno guesser
Where it shows you like a basically like an AI composite of somebody's of like a
face and you have to guess where In the world that person is from
It's actually really fun Mm -hmm tells you how far away it's like Geo guesser, you
know if you've ever seen like No, guesser. Yeah It shows you someone's face and you
have to guess where in the world they're from. - I'm like kind of uncomfortable with
that for some reason. - It's like-- - I think it's fun, but I also could see how
people are just like, hmm, China, hmm, China, hmm,
China. - That's like the, you just wrote a South Park episode, I think.
- China.
- All right, I've got, before we kick off, joke for us. Um, okay, I'll just,
I'll just do one for now. And then, uh, on our next episode, I'll read a couple
of other ones, but I wanted, I wanted some good denominational jokes and I don't
know if you guys have heard this one before, but, um, I think this is a, this is
a joke. Have you guys ever heard of a comedian named emo Phillips? Oh yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. This is an emo Phillips joke. All right. Okay. Um, all All right, so Once I
I saw this guy on a bridge He was about to jump And I said don't do it and he
said nobody loves me. I Said God loves you. Do you believe in God? He said yes.
I said are you a Christian or a Jew? He said I'm a Christian. I said me too. Are
you a you're a Protestant or a Catholic? He said I'm a Protestant. I said me too.
What what's the nomination? He said he said Baptist I said me too northern Baptist
or southern Baptist. He said northern Baptist. I said me too Northern conservative
Baptist or northern liberal Baptist. He said northern conservative Baptist I said me
too northern conservative Baptist Great Lakes region or northern conservative Baptist
Eastern region. He said Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region. Me too.
Is it the Great Lakes Region Council of 1879 or the Northern Conservative Baptist
Great Lakes Region Council of 1912? And he said Northern Conservative Baptist Great
Lakes Region Council of 1912. And I said die here, Dick. I pushed him over. Hi,
everybody. Thanks for tuning in.
I have not heard that one. That's a good one. That is a good one. Yeah, I Dude,
yeah, that's a classic. You could do that with so many denominations The thing is
though is Baptists are notorious for this like mm -hmm There are so many creeds and
confessions just in America because like they'll disagree on one tiny thing and then
split their church and take, you know, 15 people with them and we're going to go
over here and start our own confession.
I've heard you can you can also make the punchline of that joke.
Is your pulpit wood or plexiglass? Oh, yeah.
Man, I, yeah. I think Methodists they do a lot of splitting too, don't they?
It's not just Baptist It's really anybody who's been in America long enough. I bet
Proportionately there are way more splits that happen in America compared to other
countries. I think it's an American thing Yeah, no it is. It's born out of our
like stubborn individualism Yeah, I think it's also - It's also the sense that if we
feel persecuted, we move on. It's also why our divorce rates are so high.
- Yeah, right. We just don't know why they're coming in. - Why there's so many
runaway children. - I think the RCC, I think you guys are onto something. When you
say Protestants are just, everybody's their own pope and it's pure chaos.
Yeah, a little bit, a little bit. - Yeah. - RCC has just many down denominations as
we do. They just don't like to admit it. They're listening now. They don't want to
admit it. Here's the thing. Would I rather be my own Pope or would I rather have
a pope from Chicago?
I don't know. Easy win for me, boys. Pope John is in the house.
I just submit to a loving pastor. That's what I do. Yeah.
until that pastor gets called back to Alabama for that 80 for that 80k salary.
Oh, I know. And that plantation style parsonage. You know,
we saw the parsonage at New Orleans Theological Seminary when we were touring it
last year. We saw the like the president's house and it is this beautiful like
giant column Plantane style, plantation, plantain style, plantain style,
plantation style, it's a big banana. And my wife looked at me and was like,
you need to become president.
That sounds like the moment when Lady Macbeth is like, you need to kill the king.
I know.
Tommy, I don't know if it's your Wi -Fi, but you look Like I'm looking at you
through a wet paper towel. Oh, no
Your your video quality is so bad right now. That's a bummer Yeah, I thought I'd
record at home today might it's definitely better at the office So as long as the
longest my voice comes through clear with fine
It's choppy but we can work with it's Yeah, you're not leading any apps. If you
could like sit closer to the Wi -Fi, if that'll change anything. But you're not
leading any apps. So do you want to see the here? Oh, no, there's the right there.
It's right there over a little bit. You know, our our listeners are loving people.
I think they'll understand. It's true. It's true. Yeah. So. All right. Well, today
are we are we back in the are we back in the apostles again. We are. We got a
big one up tonight, boys. Yeah. Paul. We. No.
Baribas. Nope.
Judas. Nope.
Jesus. Ooh. Close. Jesus is gay. Jesus is gay.
Taylor's. Taylor's. You're going to - Like a bunch of myths about Jesus. - No.
- I don't know. - Guys, my source today is Bart Erdman. (laughing)
- First, let me start with a quote from my favorite theologian, Schleiermacher.
No, tonight. - Are we back on Pete? Are we on Pete? - We're on Pete Parker.
- We're on Big Pete. Peter, Peter chicken dinner, as they called him. All right,
Peter Pan. So as you guys know, we've already covered. Let's go over who we
covered. We covered Andrew last time. Yep. We covered Matthew and Simon the zealot.
Right. And then we covered James on James on James. Mm hmm. And we included James
the brother, not quite apostolic. Right. But above the Right.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. More than more than your average bear, right? Your
average Baptist. So, mm -hmm. We are we're gonna have been invented yet,
Taylor. I I'm aware there's some people that will make the claim that Peter
established the Baptist Church. That's crazy. Yeah Yeah, it's a whole nother episode.
You just wait till we get to landmark Baptists. My goodness.
See, when you throw out these terms, you're just like, have you ever heard of the
Geneva Baptists? And I'm like, no, Taylor, no one's ever heard of them. And you're
like, they're a little bit like the mountainease Baptists. Okay. What does that mean?
What are these words you're saying? You know, you can hate on it all day,
But no one ever heard of Eusebius until we came around. Real.
To the Baptists, did you guys discover Eusebius? I would say so.
I don't think anyone else would say that. Tell me what you know about Pete,
boys. Tell me what you know about Peter before I fill in the gaps.
Pretty slow runner, I imagine poor guy.
Not a great 40 is what I've heard. Great 40. Yeah,
probably one of the top, top three disciple present at the transfiguration present
for the resurrection.
Kind of a blabbermouth. Blabbermouth, Mount of Olives. A Mount of Olives,
yeah. called Satan on more occasions than anyone else save Satan himself.
I know. Poor guy. Yeah. What are you? So, yeah,
I I've got there's a there's a myth or an apocryphal story about Peter that I
like. I don't know if you're planning on talking about it. Which one? Does it
involve a dog? I know. I don't know that one. Okay. It's when he's leaving Rome
and he quote Quo Vadis. Yes. Mm -hmm.
He gets told to go back. Did you I'm not covering that one. So you can tell the
story. So the apocryphal story is that he's leaving Rome and and Jesus appears to
him on the road and says, uh, I think,
yeah, it's Quo, Quo Vadis, which I think, which means where are you going? And
tells him he needs to go back to Rome and so he does. And that's when he was
martyred. Is this the one where he appears to Jesus appears to him as like a
youth?
Didn't hear that one. Yeah, that's in. So that's what you're referencing is from of
Peter. And, uh, really? Yeah. So we're we're going to talk about that source
tonight. But yes, good. Uh, he had an early confession that Jesus was the Christ.
He got a new nickname, the rock. Can he smell what's cooking in the rock?
Peter, Peter. So he has a lot going on, he attacks the homie with the sword. He
denies Jesus three times, gets forgiven three times. And he's actually like the most
mentioned of the apostles. Even more than Paul. Hmm.
So Sunday School, Child Taylor was definitely the kid thinking like, Godly, this
Peter guy's a mess. Right. But as I get Little did you realize?
Oh, yeah Look man. I would for sure have gone out swinging On the guards coming to
arrest because like if I knew Jesus was God, I'd be like, you don't touch him
Yeah, but if you knew Jesus was God man's man's got his own protection. He think
he's not strapped You know, I know the correct theological answer John Simon Now you
do. He keeps that thing on him. And by thing, I mean Legion legions Legion of
Angels. Yeah. You guys heard the song Manolo from Tripoli?
No, they just are like referencing the Bible, but they were like referring to it as
like a firearm. Mm hmm. The lyrics are pretty funny. I keep one in the car.
I got two at home.
They're different kinds, but they do the same thing that's like double barrel
something bang bang Thought of a really good bar, but it won't fit because we
weren't talking about it But Thomas, could you say that thing about being strapped
with angels again? I? Said oh, yeah, yeah, I keep that thing on me and by thing.
I mean legions of angels. Yeah, I got a Desert Eagle with six wings. Oh my gosh.
It's pretty good. So as you guys know, we're investigating basically the historical
tradition claims of what's happened to the apostles. We're going through and using
Sean McDowell's work, The Fate of the Apostles, we're using that as our reference
source. I'd highly and picking it up for yourself. And then we're looking at who he
references and reading as early material as we possibly can. And so we've had some
moments where we've had to look at church standing church tradition and say,
this probably didn't happen. Like, St. Andrew's Cross unfortunately
Fabricated I Felt bad cuz you kept asking about it.
Do you remember that John Simon? Of course. I remember of course. I remember The
crushing disappointment that I felt Yeah, so here's the tension What's the tradition
claim about Peter?
Crucified upside down crucified upside down in where?
Rome in Rome under who under Nero under Nero correct crucified upside down in Rome
in their Neuronean persecution that's the tradition claim so right now dear listeners
and I'm gonna drive in California I'm gonna beat the brakes off of you
I know dude. I'm sorry, but look we're gonna whatever has to happen has to happen.
So we're gonna see we're gonna see We're gonna investigate and do as thorough
research as possible. Okay? And we're we're gonna we're gonna make some truth claims
tonight Okay, so we was just crucified sideways. I'll go sideways just 90 different
hang in there We're gonna get there. I'm just nervous. We've got,
uh, this is Sean McDowell's summary of Peter's mission's work, right? Cause we're
also tracking like what they did post resurrection. So we've got, this is Sean
McDowell. The book of acts portrays Peter preaching and teaching in Jerusalem, Judea,
Galilee, Samaria, and Caesarea. First Peter was written, uh, first Peter was written
to exiles of the dispersion and Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, Bithynia, it is by
no means impossible that Peter was engaged in missions to these churches. So that
that one's like a pretty easy one. Like Peter left Jerusalem to go to Rome. So
yeah, you know, Peter did mission work that that one's like an easy one. But when
did he go to Rome? Did he go to Rome during Nero's reign of terror?
So here's one of the questions or here's one of the here's one of the questions So
if he was in Rome in 57 58
Well, cuz we know he was in Jerusalem, right? Yeah, he was for it for when when
did he go to Rome? Here we go So sure if he was in Rome in 57 58 AD Paul would
But one of the arguments people say is Paul would have made mention of Peter while
he's riding to the Romans, right? Right. So, but he doesn't, does he?
No. No. But here's, here's the good news. So Sean McDowell says straight up,
an argument of silence isn't really from, from silence is not really an argument.
And, and then I I asked. Okay. And then I asked our New Testament professor,
Dr. Taylor, I had this exact conversation with them. I said, when do you date Peter
in Rome? And I used this, I said, I asked, I said, what's your response to this?
And he said the same exact thing. He's like, what do Paul not mentioning Peter
means nothing?
Paul, Paul might not have known or even cared that Peter was in Rome.
Wait, so the idea is that Paul would have referenced Peter in the book of Romans?
That's one of the talking points when he's like going through his list saying say
hi to Snitzel Fritz and maybe Paul and Peter still had beef with each other.
Exactly. Maybe he's like I have nothing to say. I'm gonna write to Roman correct
Peter's bad
And not even reference him by name not even reference it by name. We don't know
salty dog, bro We have first Peter 513's could be the earliest reference to him
being in Rome when he says she who is it Babylon? Who was likewise chosen sends
you greetings and so does Mark my son? So Mark likely wrote
His gospel in Rome and he likely used Peter as a source, a source, okay? So we
have some biblical evidence of lying. All right, he's in Rome. So this is Ignatius
in chapter 4 in his letter to the Romans. This comes about 110, well within our
window of living memory. He says, "Intreat Christ for me that by these instruments I
may be found to sacrifice to God. I do not, as Peter and Paul, issue commandments
unto you. They were apostles. I am but a condemned man. They were free while I am,
even until now, servant. But when I suffer, I shall be the freedman of Jesus, and
shall rise again emancipated in him. And now, being a prisoner, I learn not to
desire anything worldly or vain." That's such a good quote. But basically,
when he says, "I do not," as Peter and Paul issue commandments to you, we have two
things happening. One, we have Ignatius. This is a little bit of an off point, but
it's worth mentioning. He's acknowledging he does not have apostolic authority. So you
have somebody very early on, 110 -ish, saying, "I do not have apostolic authority."
And then you have him, basically by saying Peter and Paul, he's writing to the
Romans, it would be implied that Peter and Paul both went to Rome.
Okay, and we're instructing them So Here we have another this is another quote from
Sean McDowell talking about Him going to Rome in the apocalypse of Peter Which was
written in about 135 Jesus commands Peter to go to the city of the West which is
undoubtedly Rome Dionysus of Corinth wrote a letter to Roman Christians in 170 claims
that Peter and Paul sowed among Romans
we're getting into. And then finally, McDowell says the acts of Peter, which is what
you were referencing, Tommy 180 to 190 explicitly mentioned that Peter went to Rome
to challenge Simon Magus. And we're going to read that story later. So you guys
just hang tight because that story is really fun. In some early Christian tradition,
unanimously puts Peter towards the end of his life in Rome. All right.
OK. All right. Feels good. One down. Right. One down. You're not coming. You're not
coming. You're not getting in the car. You don't even have your shoes on. You don't
even have a shoe. Not even. Yeah. But I got my phone in my hand. Oh. And I'm
ready to hit. I'm ready to charge some people. Oh, it's charged. Oh, man. OK. Yeah.
So now we need to get to Uber for shooters, bro. Come on. He's got he's got He's
got hands for McDowell and Biola on the way to Yeah, this is a multi -trip car
Uber ad stop. So Now let's address the martyr the martyrdom Okay,
so Richard Bacchum. Do you guys know who that is? Yeah of him. Yeah, good. Okay.
Well for those who don't he's out of Cambridge He's famous for a lot, but I think
his most famous work is Jesus in the eyewitnesses. And then I love his book,
The Theology of the Book of Revelation. Yeah, dude. Bakum is like one of the
biggest heavy hitters right now. If you if you read any like New Testament book,
I feel like Bakum is quoted for sure. Like No questions asked.
And he's quoted a lot. So he's a well -respected guy. He says in rise and decline
of the Roman world that Peter was most likely killed in Rome during neurony and
persecution and was crucified.
All right, John Simon, you got one in your corner. You're missing a word there.
What's the word we're missing? Upside down. Upside down. Not yet. We'll find out.
Crucified dot, dot, It was just a period, crucified period. So we'll find out.
So then there's some secular heavy hitters did or they can test this claim.
It's so annoying. I'm not going to rail on liberals, but F Lapham wrote Peter,
the myth, the man in the writings. He's kind of like, there's not even evidence
that He was martyred, blah, blah, blah. So if you're curious to read what the other
side is saying, dear listener, that's the book, Peter, the myth, the man and the
writings. That's from TNT Clark 2004. So there you go. Now,
let's friends turn to the Gospel of John verse 21.
No. No. Let me say it again. Nope.
Chapter 21, 17 -19, from the English Standard Version.
So Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, "Do you love me?" And
he said to him, "Lord, you know everything. You know that I love you." And Jesus
said to him, "Feed my sheep." Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young,
you used to dress yourself and walk wherever you wanted. But here we go, listeners.
But when you are old, you will stretch out your hands and another will dress you
and carry you where you do not want to go. This, he said, to show by what kind
of death he was to glorify God. That's a parenthetical from John.
And after saying this, he said to him, "Follow me." Can I read a quick section
from the amplified version. I'm seeing it right here. Yeah. And you will be
crucified upside down.
That's all it says. It. I don't believe you.
I don't think I've ever read the amplified version. It's it's really it's it's a
lot. It's just a lot. It's too much. It has no flow. I don't like it. The passion
version. So I was hoping you were going to bring up this passage. I'm really
curious about how you interpret it. Hit us.
No, no, I think he wants you to hit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I thought you were
going to say John 14. Oh, yeah. No, we're we're going to get into it. OK, so
here's the fun one. Bart Ehrman actually agrees that this passage predicts the death
of Oh, and Peter Paul and Mary Magdalene. He agrees. So one of one of the
dissension voices are Decenters, this is Timothy Barnes Says that this passage is
talking about the Roman burning method Where they would clothe people in like an
inflammable garment splay them out like we saw we saw this actually And if our
listeners looked up the from the from the episode Tommy did the the painting the
Christian martyrs last prayer from John Leon Jerome 1883 you see that The human
torch execution method displayed So I think they dip them in the oil for that
I don't know if they're I don't know. I didn't read anything about that, right?
Probably oil and then the clothes and then your lit on fire, but they would put
they would regardless they would put an inflammable like garment on you and
And and then they would light you on fire and so Barnes thinks that's what Jesus
is referencing mm -hmm, which McDowell Even gives him credit and says this is a
strong argument.
Okay. So yeah, okay So let's see if this is first Clement five, which if you
remember is written at the end of the first century But not to dwell upon ancient
examples. Let us come to the most recent spiritual heroes Let us take the noble
examples furnished in our own generation Through envy and jealousy the greatest and
most righteous pillars of the church have been persecuted and put to death. Let us
set before our eyes the illustrious apostles. Peter, through unrighteous envy,
endured not one or two, but numerous labors. And when he had at length suffered
martyrdom, departed to the place of glory due to him. So that right there is a
super strong source because you have that is like like well within the window of
living memory, right?
It seems like that would fit with Nero's M .O. too. Yes. But here's an interesting
little tidbit in the translation world. So the word he uses is Marturio,
which we're like, Yeah, martyrdom, what originally that word is essentially to mean
bear witness.
But it doesn't that doesn't catch on doesn't necessarily mean death,
right? From and it's it's not used. The earliest time it's used to refer to
martyrdom is Polycarp 50 years later. OK, but even though it's 50 years,
combining this with the definitive use of it later on.
I don't know. I'm inclined to accept the translation that I got that said suffered
martyrdom, rather than, you know. And when he had bore witness, departed to the
place of glory due to him. I think it's fair to say suffered martyrdom.
'Cause,
We have this is this is one of our more interesting sources. So we have the
apocalypse of Peter Which is mid -2nd century this references his death,
but it's not canon But here's the thing about the apocalypse of Peter. So it's in
the meritorium cannon Which is the earliest list of cannon we have but it's it's
like there was some hesitation and then this is a Translation from,
if I mispronounce his last name, I'm so sorry, but this is Buchholz, Buchholz or
Buchholz, I don't know, but this is his translation of the Apocalypse of Peter.
"Behold, I have shown you Peter, and I have explained everything, and go into a
city ruling over the West, and drink the cup, which I have promised you with the
hands of the Son of the One who is in Hades, in order that his destruction might
acquire a beginning." So that's Jesus supposedly in the apocryphal or can you read
that again? I want to hear that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Go into a city ruling over the
West Rome and drink the cup Which I have promised you at the hands of the one who
is in Hades Dude, okay. He hears it. Here's the thing. I'm gonna get off my whole
bit about always gotta be crucified upside down the the level of lore here of all
of these freaking like like okay so the Gospel of John has the most like obvious
like this is Jesus talking talking to Peter and then there's the Quovada story then
there's this story like there's so this is like this is like when you read the
Iliad and there's all these like like little foreshadowings of Achilles' death at the
hand of the Trojans, this is what this is. And this is like, even if it doesn't
go anywhere, it's very interesting. I'm on board. - It's super interesting. So I
think if we combine all of our sources, I think we land here on Peter was not
only in Rome during the time of the Neuronian persecution, but it's looking like
he's he's been martyred okay it's looking like he's been martyred so a few episodes
back Tommy mentioned the bones Peter's bones because do we know what they did around
Peter's bones you remember Tommy
uh, they built the, uh, Basilica on top of them. That's right. So Titus,
Titus Kennedy says in essential archaeological guide to biblical lands, he says this,
in the fourth century, Constantine had the church built to commemorate the martyrdom
of Peter at the location of the quote trophy or tomb that Gaius mentioned in the
second century, according to Eusebius. Mm hmm. When The area of the cemetery was
excavated, archaeological materials such as coins and inscriptions indicate its use as
early as the 2nd century and 1st centuries, confirming the antiquity of the site in
which "The Tomb of Peter" was located. Later, bones were also discovered at the
site, which after undergoing analysis, were determined to be those of a man between
60 and 70 years of age oh So I got the sense when I was reading about the
Basilica being built that the reason why They were in the location.
They were is because It was basically just like off the side of the road outside
of the the circus Maximus Uh, where or I can't remember who's the Maximus of the
Circus of Nero in any case It was almost like where they just like dumped like,
you know, the bodies are buried the people who had been capitol e
executed um, I Kind of I didn't read that exactly but I almost kind of got that
sense like you know He would the people you know would have died here and then
they would have been buried across the street
And so what did you read something like I'm assuming the Christians before that must
have been trying to in some way enshrine his bones or,
you know, in tomb. Yeah, so let's look at let's read the rest of this quote from
Kennedy. So he says this, additionally, the bones of the feet below the ankle were
missing, suggesting the possibility that the man had been cut down from across after
being crucified upside down, just as the ancient accounts recorded of Peter's death.
While not definitive, the skeletal remains at least allow the possibility that Peter
was buried there. Finally, an inscription, Petros, from around the late second century
or early third century was discovered on the wall near the tomb. Therefore, the tomb
monument itself seems to have been made in the second century in a cemetery that
had been used as early as the first century, then continuously visited and revered
until the fourth century when Constantine built the church to protect the tomb and
commemorate the martyrdom of Peter.
So we have, we're circling the drain boys. Okay.
We're moving, we're moving in the right direction.
Okay. But now, I don't want to cut you off. No, go ahead. Go ahead. Where does
the story of his upside down crucifixion come from? Like where does that because it
mentioned the ancient sources? That's up. That's up next. That's up next. Okay.
Because I know we're getting to the juicy part. Did he die upside down? So here we
go. The Acts of Peter, which is an apocryphal source, dated no later than end of
second century, which we've already referenced. And the section that I'm about to
read is preserved in many different places. So there's like a couple lines of
translation and preservation that we have of this. I don't even think we have the
full document, but this is from the one that was translated and preserved the most
says but it is time for you Peter to surrender your body to those who are taking
it take it then and whose duty it is I request you therefore executioners to
crucify me head downwards in this way and no other
okay but there's the initial kickback that the Romans weren't really in the business
of honoring They're quiet. Yeah. So they were about. I've always wondered about that.
Yes. And then so that's the main source for this.
Interesting. And the second century is the earliest we have from an already
questionable source. So but you're like, okay, well, it makes it questionable. I'll
read another story from that source in in just a second. So we have Eusebius in
Ecclesiastical 3 quoting Orgen's commentary on Genesis. We talked about this a few
episodes ago. But so here, Orgen's commentary on Genesis is lost,
but some of it was preserved in Eusebius writing in Ecclesiastical History 3.
So here is Eusebius quoting Orgen. Peter appears to have preached in Pochus,
Galatia, Bithynia, Cappadocia, and Asia to the Jews in the dispersion. And at last,
having come to Rome, he was crucified head downwards, for he had requested that he
might suffer in this way. What do we need to say concerning Paul? Breach the Gospel
of Christ from Jerusalem to... Uh, wow, how do you pronounce this one?
Illyric... Illyricium?
Bill of Rickham. Come on. Sounds about right. Bill of Rickham. I'd ever see it. And
afterwards suffered martyrdom in Rome under Nero These facts are related by origin in
the third volume of his commentary on Genesis. So you have
UCBS saying origin wrote but origins kind of outside the window of living memory And
so is this other source, the Acts of Peter, is outside the window of living memory.
But don't worry, I have another source, except it's Tertullian, who's also outside
the
- Living memory. - That's right. So this is prescriptions against heretics,
early third century.
How happy is its church on which Apostles poured forth all their doctrine along with
their blood? Where Peter enters a passion like his lords where Paul wins his crown
and a death like John's Where the Apostle John was first plunged unhurt into boiling
oil and then remitted to his island exile correct correct factual So look It all
comes from this one source that's apocryphal and kind of crazy.
And you're like, what makes this source crazy? And why do we question the
historicity? So like, first off, the this guy who wrote the acts of Peter was not
very familiar with Rome. They think it was written somewhere in Asia. And I'm going
to read you a story from this, because if you remember, in the Acts of Peter,
he goes to Rome to contend with Simon the Sorcerer. Right. And so if you read the
narrative, it's like crazy. There's like, there's problems with the boat and people
are getting saved on his journey all the way there. He leaves carrying nothing,
right? He heads straight to Rome when he hears of this. And he doesn't bring
anything. And this is Chapter 9 of the Acts of Peter.
As Peter spake thus with great sorrow of mind, many were added unto them that
believed in the Lord. But the brethren besought Peter to join battle with Simon and
not suffer him any longer to vex the people. And without delay, Peter went quickly
out of the synagogue and went unto the house of Marcellus where Simon lodged, and
much people followed him. And when he came to the door, he called the porter and
said to him, "Go, say unto Simon, Peter, because of whom thou flittest out of
Judea, waiteth for thee at the door." This is like pretty good writing though.
Like there's a scene set here, right? The porter answered.
I'm locked in. I'm interested. I know. Yeah. The porter answered certain said to
Peter, "Sir, whether thou be Peter, I know not, but I have a command. For he had
knowledge that yesterday thou didst enter into the city and said unto me, Whether it
be by day or by night, at whatsoever hour he cometh, say that I am not within."
Peter said to the young man, "Thou hast well said in reporting that which he
compelled thee to say." That's such a funny, it's just like Shakespeare. - Well,
dude, it's such a funny line. It's like, Peter's like telling the door boy, like,
go get him, I know he's here. And he's like, well, Peter, he told me, this is
what he said. He said that no matter what time he comes, I'm supposed to tell you
he's not here. - And then he recorded, and Peter's like, - I was like, I did not
pay you to say that. That's not what I told you to say. - Peter's like, gosh.
- Good job telling me, bud. Yeah Now go get him and he's in the back like Bilbo
Baggins. I'm not at home Yes, right I'm not at home and Peter turned under the
people that followed him and said ye shall now see a great and marvelous wonder and
Peter seeing a great dog bound with a strong chain went to him and loosed him
Cerberus and when he was loosed the dog received a man's voice and said unto Peter,
"What dost thou bid me to do, thou servant of the unspeakable and living God?"
Peter said unto him, "The dog, mind you, go in and say unto Simon in the mists of
his company, Peter saith unto thee, Come forth abroad for thy sake, and I come to
Rome, thou wicked one and deceiver of simple souls." Then immediately the dog ran
and entered in, and rushed into the midst of them that were there was Simon. And
lifted up his forefeet, and an allowed voice said, "Thou, Simon,
Peter, the servant of Christ, who standeth at the door, saith unto thee, Come forth
abroad, for thy sake I am come to Rome, thou most wicked one, and deceiver of
simple souls." When Simon heard it, he beheld the incredible sight.
He lost the words.
went in and stood up. Why did he stand like a person? That's so strange.
Lifted up his four feet into the loud voice. I this is your same source that says
Peter was crucified upside down people. This is all I don't see what I don't see
what the problem is for that reason. I'm out. I think I won John Simon over with
this, actually. There's no hit squad coming. Yeah, you might be you might be safe,
bro. I've called off the dog. I've called off the dogs. Well, hopefully they're not
talking. Look, man, I know I'm like Debbie Downer Tay right now with this series.
Like, you know, your beloved legends, but we have had some good ones. Like it was
reliable that James the just got thrown off the temple. Right. That's why Taylor
Bart treadway from now on. Don't, don't, don't. - Taylor Bartway. - Don't you dare.
Yes. - Oh man. - I'm not, I'm pooping in the Cheerios, guys, but look.
- What kind of a Baptist saying is that? That's gross, dude. - So look,
that's pooping in the casserole you're thinking of. - Oh my gosh, why is everyone
pooping in food? This is nasty. - Martin Luther loves these jokes. - He probably
does. - So look, highest probability, 'cause this is Sean McDowell, he won't say for
certain, right? But this is like an epic academic way of saying like, "For sure
happened." He was martyred. He was martyred. Kind of likely crucified,
definitely likely in Rome. And Sean McDowell says kind of likely during Mm -hmm.
So look guys Sean commented all on the position of his crucifixion Yeah,
he says it didn't happen like no, it's very unlikely The only source we have that
that talks about it is the axe of Peter, which is insane It is an insane source.
I I have heard, and I know I'm kind of selling myself short here, one narrative I
heard about it was essentially even if Peter did ask for permission to be crucified
upside down, there's very little reason to believe that the Romans would have obliged
that request. Well, I'm going to put on my pragmatist havers,
I can hear too. I think if they really wanted to punish Peter, crucifying someone
upside down will completely undo what crucifixion was meant to do,
which is to keep someone alive for a long time. And because if you go upside down,
I mean, what do you have like maybe like three hours before you're done? Yeah. I
mean, before you pass out, you probably pass out even sooner. So what's interesting,
I do think think it should be noted, like Titus Kennedy, when he's talking about
all the archaeological evidence from that section we read earlier, when he talks
about the possibility that the man had been cut down from a cross after being
crucified upside down, the bones we found. But like, we don't know.
If we don't even know for sure if those are Peter's bones. So.
To me, that seems like one of those things that I think sometimes we import a lot
of our modern DNA evidence and everything.
We can definitely know who someone's bones are if we have a DNA match and
everything, but something tells me that the early Christians didn't necessarily need
to know exactly who's bones, for one, because they would have no way of knowing
that. if they're digging through a cemetery full of a bunch of people, I wouldn't
be surprised if they did something like, you know,
Drew straws and they're like, all right, this is Peter's bounce. Like, that's just
it. You know, probably prayed over it weirdly. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's kind of what
I guess like, you know, they they defined it with yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they they weren't like well, let's let's do the best of our
forensic studies They they had no semblance of that. What's so I know like I Get
it. Oh getting sleepers. I I get it like We want These traditions to be true and
I get where they're coming from they want to venerate the saints You know like I've
gone down a little rabbit trail of iconography and you read what the icons are
supposed to do and it's misused to worship them directly, right? They're supposed to
just inspire us to worship. When you see these paintings of the miracles,
you're supposed to be inspired. We're supposed to look at what the Apostles did and
just be moved by their faith and encouraged. And so even early Christians wanted to
hang on to as much of that as they wanted. And they like coming up with stories
that stood out. And thankfully, while we're still going to make the claim that guys,
he's most likely not crucified upside down, I'm sorry, at least our our sources like
way earlier than the St. Andrews cross the X because that was like Middle Ages when
that came around so we have a much much earlier source for this well you win again
I know I'm sorry in again my friend we need we need to pull this one for you or
He's having a blast. I think he's having a great time. I don't know. I I just
want to educate people hit wasting. We need to put a disclaimer at this I don't I
don't want kids listening to this because then they're gonna be like daddy was Peter
not crucified upside down The word why did you hear that? Oh, just imagine the
church Had been around when we did our Francis of Assisi Episode.
Oh my gosh, Disney Yeah. Okay. Okay. Don't you whistle while you work?
I'm sorry. But listeners, if you want something wild to read,
just look up acts of beater. Because I only read you chapter nine. There's a whole
bunch more. Yeah, honestly, I really enjoyed that story. I want to go read more.
It's John. It was cool. You got to admit. John is not like it. Yeah, it was
really cool story. I didn't like the dog. Yeah, I'm talking.
That's actually the origin of Scooby -Doo. You guys don't know that. That was the
original name. The dog's name
Mm -hmm. So it was do this. Scoob, Scoob, Scoob, isn't it?
It's fascinating how these traditions just quickly arose and spread like wildfire.
People, people loved these stories. And I,
and like I said earlier, I don't blame them. Yeah. I mean,
I mean, yeah, I mean, there's a part of me that feels a little bit like,
and I know this isn't the same. They're not one to one, but it does make me think
like, well, dang, dude, like, if the church hung its hat on so many claims that
had such bad historicity, then, you know, dot,
dot, dot, what does that mean about the core, documents. So I don't believe, I
don't think that has the same kind of carryover. But I guess it's just, it's a
post -enlightenment thing to care a ton about the historical side of things.
Well, you're exactly right. But then even in that, if you follow that to its
logical conclusion, then it just increases the significance of the gospel's
historically. - True, true, true, true, yeah. - Yeah, I mean, and that's where we're
at, post -enlightenment where, so you gotta remember, like, you sound like Kierkegaard
right now, basically. You're like, I don't care what's true, I care what's happening
in a man's soul, right? And like, it's a fair point, it's a fair point,
but as in a post -enlightenment world where everyone is so skeptical of Right.
The fact that Christians are willing to come to the table and say, "All right,
let's talk about historicity." But I think, well, here's the interesting thing is
that, like, okay, I would love to actually talk to like a seminary trained Catholic
dude or like a priest or somebody about this, because I wonder if they wouldn't
say, "Well, we in our mind's tradition is authoritative.
Because we can say, oh, well, history says it's unlikely. And they're like, yeah,
that doesn't mean it doesn't mean it didn't happen, though. Because, oh, he was
crucified, he was in Rome, it was under Nero. And there's not a lot of sources
that say that he was crucified upside down. But there is none that say he wasn't
crucified upside down. And maybe that's what a Catholic would say. And they'd be
like, yeah, for us, tradition is Incredible historical source. I don't I don't want
to put words in any Catholic's mouth But sure and I'm not saying that to be to be
critical I'm saying that like almost sleep with a little bit of admiration. Maybe I
don't know in the in the academic world Everybody's this is gonna sound arrogant. I
don't mean you gotta remember I'm pulling from Sean McDowell, but like in the
academic world everybody's landing on this as far as sure as far as the upside down
I I think when I think when Roman to be fair to our Roman Catholic listeners I
think when Roman Catholics speak of the authority of tradition that they don't
necessarily mean like Some crazy guy right in a fanfiction Peter Yeah,
yeah, just because somebody in history who was Catholic said something or even a
collection of them said something I think oftentimes they're speaking more more to
the teaching of the church being passed down over time and not necessarily like
folklore. Right. But wouldn't the upside down crucifixion of Peter,
hasn't that been passed down in their lineage? Or is that just something some dude
said in an early issue of the Catholic comic book I Don't I don't think but but I
still don't think that's passing the like the the bar for what they would consider
to be like sacred tradition Which I think is usually like something that's been
formally passed down like through
Councils and apostolic succession and the manner of Peter's death is necessarily at
that level of OK, that makes sense. Yeah. Now I get that.
That makes sense. Yeah, because I just wonder, I don't know. The obviously there are
a lot of different traditions that put varying amounts of weight on.
Yeah, like traditional lore, kind of this, this, this heritage of passing stories
along. But I don't know. I'm curious, Catholic listeners, tell us what's going on.
Tell us what we're missing. I'm excited. Yeah, I'm going to ask Matt Fradd and tell
him to come on church history for chomps. Yeah, but we have to remember, like, the
Catholics, like, they can't speak for one another because they too have, like,
effectively 1 ,800 denominations.
Hey, ding, ding, ding. So, so if you're Catholic and you you help explain to us
you just have to tell us what kind of Catholic you are exactly tell us who your
favorite Catholic influencer is no Jesuits please I'll take Jesuits I'll take him
dude one time I'll take Dominicans my my renaissance fair outfit me and Brandy are
that couple my renaissance fair outfit is like red hobbies Thomas you hear that
hobbies that's right you know red monk robes it's going as a Fairy to the Wrens on
Cecil. No, I dressed as a Jesuit. And one time... Like I said,
no I didn't. I passed a fairy. Nice! I passed this guy dressed as a Puritan and
he like interrupted his sermon and looked at me and went, "Ew, a Jesuit !" Dude,
that's amazing.
That's awesome.
I also love that There's some guy going to the Renfair as a pure tin. That's
hilarious. Yeah. What are you doing here, bro? This is historically inaccurate.
Yep, the Renfair is evolved, OK? Much like our understanding of church history.
And with that, we've got another episode of The Du Bois. Let's wrap this one up,
huh? Yeah. All right friends, thanks for listening.
We'll talk to you later. I'll miss you. Bye. Bye
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