Church History for Chumps
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Saints, heretics, councils...and the occasional crazy stuff. We have fun.
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Church History for Chumps
Saint Cyprian and the Church Split that (almost) Rocked Rome
Persecutions are tough. I think we can all agree with that.
But an issue that doesn't get as much attention is what the church does after a time of persecution. Specifically with the Christians who may or may not have caved under the threat of harm or violence.
The 3rd Century in Rome (as we've discussed on the show before) was a tough time to be a Christian, and while the persecution wasn't long, the problems that it created for the church definitely were.
Enter St. Cyprian, a beloved leader from the city of Carthage. Not only will he be called to stand strong in the face of persecution, he will also be tasked with providing wisdom and direction for the church when factions form and threaten to tear the church in two.
Also. We tell a lot of jokes in this. Definitely skip the banter if you're not a fan. We think you will be. But you might not be. And we love you still.
Also today is John Simon's birthday! Show our boi some love.
IG: @churchhistory4chumps
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Juanito (00:00.398)
Hey everybody, welcome to Church History for Chumps. My name is John, the Mount Rushmore State. Simon, we've got Taylor, the Beaver State, Treadway, and Thomas, the land of enchantment. Do well. All right.
Cheddar Bob (00:14.203)
Yeah, I like it
The Gatekeeper (00:16.33)
I don't know what the beaver state is.
Cheddar Bob (00:18.37)
Do I... Do I look like I'm from New Mexico?
Juanito (00:22.842)
You nailed it. Look at that Thomas. All right.
The Gatekeeper (00:24.702)
What's the, where's the beaver state? And also I hate that our new cold opens are just me complaining about whatever you nicknamed me.
Juanito (00:33.318)
It's a good little running bit. I like it. Do you know what the beaver state is, Taylor?
The Gatekeeper (00:36.724)
What's the beaver state? The beaver state. Enter. Yes. Why am I from Oregon's very pretty, but what part of Oregon am I? Like, left coast or crazy inland Oregon? Yeah. Nah.
Cheddar Bob (00:41.294)
I'm gonna guess Oregon.
Juanito (00:43.366)
Dude, my gosh. Thomas just crushing this.
Juanito (00:54.214)
crazy town, meth town. I don't know if they do meth out there. just, I feel like wherever there's a coastal state and there's not coast, it's usually where drugs are being done. That's typically true for California.
The Gatekeeper (01:07.338)
I don't know, I'd love to hear from an inland organer.
Juanito (01:12.87)
inland Oregonian organite organizer. Yeah. How you guys doing? It's it's what Wednesday? I mean, it's not Wednesday when we're dropping this, but it's IRL. How you guys feeling?
The Gatekeeper (01:14.494)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. I believe.
The Gatekeeper (01:26.546)
You know, I'm getting ready to leave for China.
Juanito (01:31.962)
Whoa, ni hao, okay. Yeah.
Cheddar Bob (01:32.62)
Whoa! I don't remember our listeners approving that.
The Gatekeeper (01:36.56)
Yeah, it's not a mission trip. Well, I'm going to evangelize to the mouse.
Juanito (01:39.189)
just a vacation?
Cheddar Bob (01:44.088)
to the mouse like a Mickey Mouse or
Juanito (01:44.451)
you're going to... You're going to Disneyland China?
The Gatekeeper (01:46.378)
DisneyLayHongKong and Tokyo Disney.
Juanito (01:50.028)
man, okay.
Juanito (01:54.822)
is that also in China?
The Gatekeeper (01:57.897)
Yes.
Juanito (01:59.172)
You
Cheddar Bob (01:59.544)
Did we nail it? Are you actually going to like, Disneyland China? When you said a van drives through the mountains?
The Gatekeeper (02:03.05)
What do mean, nailed it? I just said it.
Cheddar Bob (02:06.336)
Okay. but wheat. I thought I was making a play on words. when you said, I thought you, I thought you were like, you were saying evangelizing to the mouse, you know, like M-A-O, and then I made a clever play.
Juanito (02:08.016)
Back off, man, gosh.
Juanito (02:17.894)
that's really clever. Does anyone ever call Disneyland China Mickey Mouse's house?
The Gatekeeper (02:18.282)
Oh, no, no, no, no.
No, no, no.
Cheddar Bob (02:26.382)
Mickey Mouse? They just have like a 95 foot tall portrait of Mickey Mouse in front of them.
The Gatekeeper (02:26.993)
Dude, I'm sure.
The Gatekeeper (02:34.822)
Yeah, you like walking. You like walk into the park and it's like, I love Xi Jinping.
Juanito (02:36.486)
with the Mickey ears.
Juanito (02:43.11)
People don't know this about Taylor.
Cheddar Bob (02:43.234)
my gosh. Your social credit score is really bad, Taylor!
The Gatekeeper (02:57.781)
My parents are blessing me and Brandy, so that's going to be wonderful. But then, hey, I get to be at Collegiate Week for the Baptist. There's like 1,500 college kids in August. So if you're a listener and you're going to Collegiate Week, I'll be there all week. Come say hi.
Juanito (03:02.598)
That's nice. Hey.
Juanito (03:19.27)
Are you gonna put up like a table for the podcast?
The Gatekeeper (03:22.214)
I'm gonna put up a table for Gateway Seminary.
Juanito (03:24.962)
Okay, all right. So thank you for joining us where your loyalties are. Wow, yeah. Put up like a pamphlet. I'll send you some pamphlets.
The Gatekeeper (03:28.326)
Yeah, well, one day.
Yeah, send me some literatures. Right.
Juanito (03:36.39)
I'll send you some literature. I'll make- I won't send literature. I'll send literature. I don't mind.
The Gatekeeper (03:40.724)
and they'll, our fans will meet me and be immeasurably disappointed.
Cheddar Bob (03:49.838)
Are you guys ready for some more jokes?
The Gatekeeper (03:53.098)
yeah, that's a new thing we do. Yeah.
Juanito (03:53.471)
yeah, I forgot this is a new thing we're doing. Yeah, go ahead, Tommy.
Cheddar Bob (03:56.812)
Yeah.
The Gatekeeper (03:59.155)
I John Simon's ready.
Juanito (04:00.966)
You
Cheddar Bob (04:01.836)
Yeah, I think Taylor might know some of these. How do you keep a Baptist from drinking all your beer when you take him fishing?
The Gatekeeper (04:08.616)
you bring another Baptist?
Cheddar Bob (04:10.144)
Yup.
Juanito (04:10.958)
I knew that one too. That's a good one. That's a good one. Yeah.
Cheddar Bob (04:13.87)
How many Lutherans does it take to change a lightbulb?
Juanito (04:19.332)
I don't know.
The Gatekeeper (04:20.184)
I have hurt. Yeah, that's right.
Cheddar Bob (04:20.27)
STAGE?!
Juanito (04:22.502)
Ha, that's good, that's good.
Cheddar Bob (04:26.154)
Alright, I'll do one more for today. So a Jewish man goes to his Rabbi and complains that his son shows no direction in life. The Rabbi advises him, set out on a table the Torah, a loaf of bread and a bottle of wine, and see which one your son chooses. If the Torah, he will be a scholar. If the bread, a businessman. If the wine, write him off. He's doomed. So the man goes home to try this.
He comes back a few days later and says, Rabbi, I did what you said, but I have no idea how to interpret what happened. My son came into the room, started eating the bread, tucked the bottle of wine under his arm, and opening the Torah, carried all three off to his room. This is terrible, the rabbi says. It means your son will become a Catholic priest.
Juanito (05:19.088)
Well that's pretty good.
The Gatekeeper (05:21.162)
clever.
Cheddar Bob (05:21.326)
Laugh harder next time, ok? This is an audio podcast
The Gatekeeper (05:25.478)
clever.
Juanito (05:26.758)
That's right. I'm more of a visual visual laugher than an audible laugher. Yeah. I just will add it. We'll add a live track on that. Ray, can we get on that? Thanks, All right. That doesn't. When we.
The Gatekeeper (05:28.669)
Right, dude.
The Gatekeeper (05:34.227)
I know.
Cheddar Bob (05:40.526)
chuck that up to the next thing that we ask Ray for that doesn't happen. That's my dad's favorite part of this podcast, by the way, my dad's like, I love when you guys are like, Hey, why don't you add that in and then nothing happens.
The Gatekeeper (05:41.993)
I've
I've got.
Juanito (05:52.038)
It's my favorite running joke. There really is. Yeah.
The Gatekeeper (05:52.618)
you
Cheddar Bob (05:55.267)
hehe
The Gatekeeper (05:55.37)
I've got a joke. I've got a joke. So there's a ship that's passing a deserted island and they see a giant white flag that has help painted on it. And they're like, my gosh. And they go there and they find this guy who has been there for who knows how long. He's got a super long beard. He's pretty emaciated. And they're like, dude, how long?
Juanito (05:59.577)
Okay, what's your joke?
The Gatekeeper (06:20.584)
you been here? We're so glad we found you." He's like, I've been here for years. I actually built up a whole little town if you want to see. And they're like, well, sure, before we take you off here, give us a tour. And he goes, right here, this is my house. And then over here is the community center. And then he says, and right there is the church. And they're like, what's that dilapidated, run-down building over in the corner there? And he goes, that's where I used to go to church.
You
Juanito (06:46.47)
That's good.
Cheddar Bob (06:50.36)
So he is an American.
The Gatekeeper (06:51.941)
Yeah, for sure.
Juanito (06:55.142)
Alright, I've got a joke. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I got one, I got one, I got one, okay. if I can just keep it together, cause this is, nah, I'm not even gonna say anything. Alright.
The Gatekeeper (06:57.831)
nice. Triple threat.
The Gatekeeper (07:06.396)
He's going to laugh and ruin how he tells his joke. He wouldn't give you a courtesy chuckle, Thomas. Go ahead. All right. Yeah, go ahead.
Juanito (07:09.272)
Shut up, shut up, shut up. Just let me tell my joke, okay? Gosh. All right.
There's three guys and they're hiking in the wild and they come across a lamp and they rub it. Genie comes out and says, uh, I'm, I'm going to grant each of you three wishes. And the first guy says, Oh, you know, I wish for a, for a million dollars. The Genie snaps his finger wish granted. And the other guy says, uh, I wish for the highest position, um, in my
in my company. want to, want to be the CEO of our business. And the genius says, I wish granted. And the third guy says,
Shut up, shut up, shut up. He says, I wanna have my head nodding up and down constantly. And the two guys look at him and they're like, this is odd. So he goes back to the first guy. He's like, for my second wish, I wanna have the most beautiful woman in the world as my wife. And the second guy says, I want.
Cheddar Bob (07:56.206)
this
The Gatekeeper (07:56.387)
my...
Juanito (08:24.986)
just this massive 90 foot yacht that I can just take around the world. And the third guy says.
Juanito (08:35.494)
I want my right arm to be just rotate counterclockwise. And other guy's looking at him and they're like, he must be, he must be onto something. This is so interesting. And so, goes back to the first guy. The first guy says, you know, for my last wish, you know, I just.
The Gatekeeper (08:36.498)
What?
Juanito (09:01.262)
I wish to be just the most popular influencer. I just want to make content for hundreds of millions of people just speaking positivity into the world. And the second guy says, I want this sophisticated palette where I can just taste all of the distinctions in all the best wines, the best bottles of liquor. I want to be able to just appreciate all of the best foods and drinks that there are.
And the third guy says, I want my left arm to be constantly rotating counterclockwise. And so the two guys are like, man, this guy really must be on to something. And so the genie vanishes. They all go their separate ways. a year later, the three guys reconvened.
The Gatekeeper (09:36.97)
What?
The Gatekeeper (09:59.178)
You
Juanito (10:00.944)
The first guy says, you know, I'm so wealthy. I've got this beautiful wife. I've got this amazing following. And I just, I'm so grateful for what my life has become. And the second guy says, I've got so much success in my career. I'm able to enjoy all the world and all the beautiful things around it. I'm just so grateful for everything. And the third guy.
He's got his head nodding up and down. His right arm rotating clockwise and his left arm rotating counterclockwise. And he says, guys, I think I messed up.
Cheddar Bob (10:46.734)
so stupid dude okay i just have to say most of the time when somebody laughs all the way through telling a joke it ruins it but that was one of the funniest things i've ever heard because the slow burn of you laughing about it the whole time
The Gatekeeper (11:04.714)
my gosh... Okay...
Juanito (11:08.58)
That's like seven minutes to tell my gosh do we lost
Cheddar Bob (11:14.395)
That was a norm joke right there.
The Gatekeeper (11:17.182)
Was it Michelle who was like left the comment to stop giggling like schoolgirls?
Juanito (11:21.764)
Yeah, she got so mad. Newsflash, Michelle, this is a free podcast. We do what we want.
The Gatekeeper (11:27.454)
Do you know what? Michelle, you know what John Simon said in the group chat when your message came in? goes, Michelle's not invited to my birthday party.
Juanito (11:40.87)
That's exactly what I said, and it's true. I don't care if you bring me a gift or not, Michelle. You'll even... We're grateful. Thank you very much for your support. All right. You guys ready for this episode? I've never been more ready for an episode in my life. All right, all right. Okay. I'm gonna recalibrate a little bit. Okay, I'm excited.
The Gatekeeper (11:46.378)
We're grateful for you though, Michelle. We're grateful for you.
The Gatekeeper (11:54.383)
I don't know any- I don't know.
Juanito (12:05.158)
Let me tell you guys a story. This is gonna sound like the same joke. It's not, promise. Here's our cold open. We're getting started. Okay. All right. So, I was on the bus the other day. I was riding from one part of town to the next. And I heard this teenager, teenage boy talking loudly, boombox over his shoulder, leather jacket draped around his waist. And he said, yeah, man, you know, nobody does Spider-Man like Tom Holland. Those movies are the best, bro.
The Gatekeeper (12:09.609)
Juanito (12:34.272)
On and on he went, just rattling about Spider-Man and how good it is and the most recent MCU adaptation. And suddenly this old man stands up. He crumples up his newspaper and he says, son, have you ever heard of a man named Andrew Garfield, you little rapscallion? And the young guy looks kind of startled. And he's like, no, why was he a better Spider-Man? And the old man says, no, he wasn't.
but he was Spider-Man and it was basically the same story, just slightly worse, okay? And the old man sat back down and put his reading glasses back on. And when the old man made his angry public tirade with no real point or purpose, I thought about Saint Cyprian. You see, at this point in the pod's history, you're probably familiar with the controversial tale.
of the Donatus controversy. After the most violent wave of persecution that the Church would ever see under Roman rule, the people of God were left with this terrible, awful question. What on earth do we do with the priests and the bishops that caved and made sacrifices to God under the threat of death or punishment? The Church would officially decree that these leaders should be made to do penance, repents of their sins, and gradually, if they were still biblically qualified,
be restored to their roles. In Carthage, they had different plans. In Carthage, the church believed that to have abandoned the church in its time of need was not just unforgivable, but that these men were cowards and sinners and their sacraments were invalid. The conflict was a giant freaking whirlpool in the church, specifically in Northern Africa. And the conflict was tackled by none other than the mighty Augustine of Hippo.
It was a battle for the history books, my friends. In fact, it's a story so good that we've actually talked about it quite a bit on our show. But have you ever heard of a story a little older, a little worse, and a little less interesting? Enter St. Cyprian.
Cheddar Bob (14:40.366)
Yeah
The Gatekeeper (14:51.036)
You sound like Palpatine. have I ever told you the tale of Darth Plankus the Wise?
Juanito (14:58.566)
Enter Saint Cyprian and the Novationists. So buckle up kiddos, we're about to go back in time for a story that is not really as cool, I guess. So Saint Cyprian, you guys ever heard of him?
Cheddar Bob (15:17.292)
Cyprien of Carthage, I've heard of him. In a flame song.
Juanito (15:18.884)
Cyprian of Carthage. Yeah, He, in a flame song. Was this the flame album when he went really Lutheran?
Cheddar Bob (15:27.542)
Yeah, it's on his track, the Patristics.
Juanito (15:30.822)
Love it, I love that, that's great. Alright, so Saint Cyprian, also known as Thacius Sicilius Cyprianus. He was a third century man, he was born in 210 in Carthage, which we've said many times throughout our show, is the cultural hub of Roman North Africa. There's actually kind of a lot of shenanigans that are gonna come out of this part of the world. We're gonna see...
figures like Tertullian come out of here who are gonna bring a lot of good and a lot of not so great to the church. Also Augustine, know, one of the biggest OGs of the entire period of early church history would be from North Africa. Our man Cyprian was of Berber descent, which means, that's right, Taylor, no whiteys in this episode. This man was...
The Gatekeeper (16:22.292)
What the heck? Okay.
Cheddar Bob (16:24.246)
Hahaha
Juanito (16:26.17)
That's my second favorite running joke is giving Taylor a hard time whenever we have a black person at our show. right. Cyprian was baptized at the age of 35. Although he had the same background and heritage as Tertullian, he did not have Tertullian's propensity for intellect and theological genius. But what he lacked in originality, he made up.
The Gatekeeper (16:33.864)
I'm okay
Juanito (16:53.782)
in shepherdly grace and kind gentle leadership. It also means he didn't convert to monstronism, so thanks Tertullian. That's right, he kept his feet right on the ground. Regarding his conversion, Cyprian wrote, I was entangled in the thousand errors of my previous life. I did not think I could get free of them, for I was so much the slave of my vices and I had such complacence.
Cheddar Bob (17:01.686)
You didn't get too up in the clouds, huh?
Juanito (17:20.248)
in the evils which had become my constant companions, but the regenerating water washed me from the stains of my previous life and a light from on high shone into my heart, thus purified from its corruptions, and the spirit coming from heaven changed me into a new man by a second birth." Cyprian
Cheddar Bob (17:39.458)
Dude, this is something about the North Africans, They just... It's like... On the negative side, they're so violent. Carthage is crazy place. And then on the positive side, they just live wide open. They sin hard and they receive grace even harder.
Juanito (17:44.108)
Hahaha.
Juanito (17:51.145)
You
Juanito (17:58.544)
Yeah, Sinhardt confess harder. I think that was the motto. That was the caption on their Instagram page. Yeah, dude, I'm trying to compare it to like, I don't know. There's gotta be like a subculture where they're just like, yeah, kind of an aggressive bunch, potentially a violent bunch, also sort of genius. They party hard.
Cheddar Bob (18:04.876)
Yeah
Mm-hmm.
Juanito (18:25.114)
They worship harder. I'm like, dude, what a crazy little area this was. But he was, he was a dude. The Israelis, gosh. Yeah. Everything they do, they do to the, the, the, the Nth degree. think that was, what's his name? That was hardcore history. Tom, that was, Dan Carlin talking about the Japanese in world war two. They're like, no, they're like normal humans, but, to the utmost. think that was just saying, yeah. Yeah.
Cheddar Bob (18:30.465)
Mm-hmm.
The Gatekeeper (18:31.816)
the Israelis.
The Gatekeeper (18:47.818)
Mmm.
The Gatekeeper (18:52.426)
committed, folks.
Juanito (18:55.398)
Alright, Cyprian was known, again, to be a man of such outstanding character that he was ordained priest within a year of his baptism, which again wasn't crazy. He was 35 when he was baptized. As we've talked about, this was the era where the baptism tended to come after a long cycle of catechesis, so he was probably well familiar with the scriptures and good doctrine at this point.
And so he was yeah, he was appointed priest within a year of his baptism and around a year after that He was appointed bishop of Carthage. So Yeah, dude was a dude was climbing up that that corporate ladder So and not long after being appointed bishop things were about to get spicy for the church
Cheddar Bob (19:28.792)
Dang, speedrun.
Juanito (19:44.967)
about forty years prior to this there was going to be a wave of persecution that wasn't going to be certainly not the most aggressive but for about a full generation things were going to be pretty quiet pretty peaceful the church was going to grow it's gonna you know heal up some of the scars but suddenly emperor dcs is going to decide that he wants to shake things up member dcs was not a fan of the church and he's going to issue an edict demanding
that all Christian leaders sign a document ensuring that they would sacrifice to the Roman gods. In the frenzy that commenced, Pope Fabian in Rome, the Bishop of Rome, would be martyred within weeks. And Cyprian was strongly encouraged by his inner circle to go into hiding and basically hid out for about 14 months in the North African countryside while a
The rest of the church basically just kind of had to, you know, go on without it while the rest of it went underground. Yeah.
The Gatekeeper (20:47.386)
Here's a quick question. What, I almost want to be like, why, what's the arguments again, like for signing it? Like how many people just signed it and were like, I'm still not going to do it. I don't care. Like whatever.
Juanito (21:03.974)
I think it's still a form of denial, you know? Like that's like if Peter denied that he knew Jesus, but in the back of his mind he was like, I really know Jesus though. Like it's like, I think there was a binding of like, if you're giving your word, then it means something. It's not just about the practical side.
The Gatekeeper (21:12.49)
Mmm.
The Gatekeeper (21:30.494)
Well, it's like the age old question. It's like the age old ethics, like Christian ethics question of like lying. I don't know. I mean, I tend to be a little more open to the. Well, like, like, you know, think about this. If a missionary is like got his family in the back of his van and he's fleeing Afghanistan, trying to get over the border and the Taliban stop him. And they're like, are you Christian? And he's like, Nope, never heard of that. What?
Juanito (21:32.624)
But I don't know, that's a good question.
Juanito (21:38.254)
Yeah. Yeah.
The Gatekeeper (22:00.074)
Christian? Like, do you? Yeah, like, I don't I don't know. In my mind, I'm like, there's like a really big difference between a few hours before telling Jesus, like one slashing some guys at some guy's head going for a kill shot with a sword. And then and then telling Jesus, I'll die for you. And then a few hours later being, I don't know that guy. I don't know that guy. Right. Where versus like be like, they want us to sign something. OK.
Juanito (22:02.308)
As-salamu alaykum, brother. Yeah.
Juanito (22:30.5)
Yeah, I don't know. It's hard. I think about that a lot of times too. And I mean, I don't know. I think about Abraham and Sarah and him being like, no, she's actually my sister, which was actually super sketchy because he was endangering her life in doing so. right, exactly.
The Gatekeeper (22:42.068)
Yeah.
The Gatekeeper (22:49.79)
Well, she got taken to Pharaoh. So I think it's like the consequences of the deception, but also people that are just like, nope, I'll never tell a lie. Right? I kind of, I don't know. But then you get into the whole thing. Like, the Nazis knock on your door and you're hiding a Jewish family in the attic. I don't know.
Juanito (23:02.286)
rights
Juanito (23:09.178)
Yeah, of course. I'm not gonna be like, they're upstairs. You got me. I cannot tell a lie.
The Gatekeeper (23:12.994)
Right, I'm like, I don't care, I lied to some, I deceived the agents of Satan. Like, I don't really, yeah.
Juanito (23:20.206)
Right, right.
Yeah, I think it's tricky. And I think this was also very early in the church's history. And I wouldn't be surprised if they had a pretty literal and like rigid understanding of Jesus saying, if you deny me before man, I will deny you. So they might've even thought like, yeah, if we do this, we will burn. Like we will be cast out of Christ's presence if we...
if we deny him now even if they're like we didn't really deny him because we were actually going to go through with it maybe they they they weren't as privy to the nuance not to say that were more informed i think it's just a different value system if that makes sense but i don't know and that's a really good question because i think that comes up a lot in church history like why not just not just been the truth a little bit i don't know yeah so returning to his position fourteen months later he is going to
The Gatekeeper (23:52.522)
Mm-hmm.
The Gatekeeper (24:04.138)
Hmm.
The Gatekeeper (24:13.13)
Yeah.
Juanito (24:22.662)
find that the empire had kind of been rattled. So it wasn't a very long cycle of persecution, which is good, but it was still going to have a significantly negative effect. And what Cyprian is going to find out is that a lot of the leaders throughout the church had compromised the faith in response to the persecution and that folded by either signing the papers or actually doing the sacrifices or
one of many things to compromise their position as leaders of the flock. And so a lot of the people in the church were looking to Cyprian as a well-respected, well-beloved bishop in a prominent region to say, dude, what do we do about this? Cause this seems kind of crazy. And so they were like, we need you to tell us what to do. Obviously there were, and the problem was there were people who were very, very antagonistic on both sides. There were those who said,
look, they made a bad call, but they were under duress. We shouldn't judge them for compromising just because they were threatened with death and torture. These men should be restored back to the priesthood and all is grace, all is forgiven. And then there were those who were like, these men are scum.
they should never step foot back in a church they should never receive the sacraments again they are not part of the church and so everyone is really like belligerent about how do we handle this this situation and so cipri is basically
Cheddar Bob (25:58.85)
You know what this kind of reminds me of? mean, there's a lot of different...
modern examples that we could think of with this, but the attitudes surrounding the Donatus stuff kind of reminds me of the way conservative Christians argue about, when it comes to the question of abortion, like an incrementalist approach or an abolitionist approach where it's like you have a bunch of people that all really care about the church in this case and the early church.
Juanito (26:25.094)
Hmm.
Cheddar Bob (26:36.174)
Like they all want the same thing, know, which is like the purity of the church. But then you got the people who are like, no, like by any means necessary. And then others who see that as total betrayal. It's really interesting. It's kind of, it seems like a, there's something, nothing new under the sun there.
Juanito (26:53.146)
Dude, mean, yeah, take that viewpoint and apply it to civil rights 60 years ago or apply it to slavery 150 years ago. Like there's always the, the more like rigid stance. And then there's the, let's be practical stance. And that just, yeah, it never seems to go away.
The Gatekeeper (27:16.97)
You know though, I will say this, the people that do the rigid stance are the ones that affect change.
Juanito (27:28.42)
Yeah, and sometimes change that sucks. As we'll see in this story.
The Gatekeeper (27:32.008)
Well, yeah, but like, you know, the Quakers were famously against slavery for hundreds of years before anything happened and,
Juanito (27:42.0)
Sure.
Cheddar Bob (27:44.142)
counterpoint the Clapham Saints in England were incrementalists and they got the slave trade abolished even though we call them abolitionists they were were like they wanted to do anything that they could to kind of chip away
The Gatekeeper (27:58.591)
Yeah, how do you boil a frog?
Cheddar Bob (28:01.582)
Mm-hmm.
Juanito (28:02.362)
Yeah. Or you just step on it.
The Gatekeeper (28:03.178)
So I see both sides. do feel like history is a little, like the Donatists and the schismatics in general kind of get villainized as like being difficult, right?
Juanito (28:19.91)
Well, we're going to see. We're going to see. No, no, you're absolutely right. And so before you say more, let me get into this. So Cyprian's basically going to speak to the crowds and be like, look, just chill. I'm going to meet with the other bishops. We're going to have a nice little synod. And we're going to talk about how to resolve the situation. And we are going to be golden.
and suggest give me some time and we will figure things out unfortunately in rome things got really fast as he was trying to slow them down of the roman christians cuz remember one of the first things that happened when this period of persecution happened was the pope was martyred and so in rome now that the person now that the heat is off they need to try to decide well shoot we need to appoint a new
And so they elect this dude by the name of Cornelius, which is a very controversial idea because at this time, no, close, very close. It's four foot six. So, no, so Cornelius was on opposite ends of this kind of sphere of what do we do with the lapsed Christians?
Cheddar Bob (29:24.408)
He was a dwarf.
The Gatekeeper (29:27.56)
He was also the Minister of Magic.
Juanito (29:44.89)
compared to this guy by the name of novation and novation had made it very clear that he did not like what was he did not like how the lapsed christians are being handled and they should basically be catapulted outside of the church and so and also novation was like of the favorite to be to be phabians successor he was a very well-known and well-respected
presbyter at this time so when novation was basically kinda hopped over tickets a cornelius a lot of people in rome had their eyebrows wiggling through the air and so cornelius becomes the pope and immediately decides he's going to absolve some of the laps leaders and restore them back into communion and novation is like i freaking knew it this is some conspiracy stuff and this sucks and so novation
Cheddar Bob (30:40.354)
Just for, can I ask a clarifying question? When he's restoring them, is he restoring them to communion alone or was he also restoring them to their office?
Juanito (30:51.782)
all that is a great question uh... uh... me and we look at
Juanito (31:01.634)
I believe he was restoring them to leadership. Because like I said, there was a wide range of how people handled this, but I'll take a look at this in a second and try to clarify that. Novation does something that is going to turn this ripple into a freaking tsunami. And Novation is basically going to declare that Cornelius has inherently
corrupted the church, he has soiled the holiness of the church, and that Cornelius was unfit to serve in this capacity. And then he met with who my book called some countryside bishops, which makes me think he just like went to some like really small towns and just got these like hick bishops who were like, you got it.
The Gatekeeper (31:49.066)
He went to first, yeah, he went to first Southern Orthodox and found. Yeah, yeah, and found Pastor Bob. Yeah, well, this fellow's this fellow's all right.
Juanito (31:55.63)
That's right. Yeah. He found Jethro. Yeah. And he was like, can you believe this stuff? He's like, can you believe this? Can you believe these shenanigans happen in Rome right now? You can't. You're not on board with this, are you, Rob? And he's like, no, man, not at all.
The Gatekeeper (32:07.763)
Yay.
And he took him to Golden Corral. He paid for it.
Juanito (32:14.768)
That's right. Yeah, yeah. Sat him down, got him some biscuits and gravy, and before you knew it, he had a couple fans. And so he got himself, by these wayward bishops, proclaimed as the one and only true bishop, not just of Rome, but of the entire church. He was basically like, because these guys affirm Cornelius, and Cornelius is off his rocker.
The Gatekeeper (32:20.584)
Right?
Right, right.
Juanito (32:44.29)
I am the only true bishop. And so if you want to be part of the Church of Jesus, you need to follow what I'm doing and jump off this train altogether. And so Cyprian, who again is trying to keep the peace down in Carthage, realizes that in Rome, all heck has just broken loose. And so he gets to writing and he's going to write about several very important ideas. So, Ted, you talk about how
guys like the Donatists and what this schism is going to be called, which are the Novationists, are essentially, kind of seen as like the bad guys, they're kind of seen as like hard to deal with. So Cyprian is going to write pretty aggressively and he's essentially going to, his writings are going to flesh out this idea of apostolic succession and his whole thing is church unity. So he's like, he has this really interesting quote which is kind of like,
comparing the church to this garment that should not be rent. And so he essentially says, there's no such thing as a church split. You don't split the church. If you leave the church, then you're not the church. And he basically says, we define the church by apostolic succession. We define apostolic succession by the bishops who carry on the lineage that Christ gave to
Peter in that pivotal moment in the gospels. And if you decide that you have an alternative view to what the church is doing, then you're not splitting the church. You're leaving the church. You're a schismatic. You're no longer a part of the church. so he's like, it's interesting because you compare how Cyprian approaches this even to how Augustine approaches it. And Augustine is no freaking, he's not like,
Flake on this stuff, but Cyprian is like nah these guys are not Christians, and we should not entertain this stuff at all
The Gatekeeper (34:49.438)
The Baptist in me is like, maybe this Novation guy is onto something.
Juanito (34:53.766)
So yeah, let me read a line from Cyprian. Let me see here. So he's going to say,
After the resurrection, he also says to him, Peter, feed my sheep. On him he builds the church, and to him he entrusts the sheep to be fed. And although he gives equal power to all the apostles, yet he established one chair, and arranged by his own authority the origin and principle of unity. Certainly the rest of the apostles were exactly what Peter was, but primacy is given to Peter, and one church and one chair is demonstrated.
and they are all shepherds, but the flock is shown to be one, which is to be fed by all the apostles in unanimous agreement. He who does not hold this unity of Peter, does he believe he holds the faith? He who deserts the chair of Peter, on whom the church was founded, does he trust that he is in the church? And so he's basically pressing really hard that the movement of the Novationists was not just like, you know.
You know different strokes for different folks, you know, no he was like you guys have forsaken the very structure of Leadership that Jesus gave to the church and as a result you're not the church and you don't get to call yourselves the church and Yeah, it's
The Gatekeeper (36:21.918)
Hmm. It sounds like a very modern argument against a certain sect of Christians. Protestants. This is exactly what the Catholics say about Protestants.
Juanito (36:30.064)
Like who?
yeah, I mean dude, I am-
This is, Catholics, and I'll say, think that literally the council at Vatican II affirmed that Protestants are not like devoid of the Holy Spirit. So it's not an official Catholic statement that Protestants are not Christians. They do believe that we're outside of the structures of the Catholic church. They don't believe that we can't be Christians. But yes, the Catholics who will say that
The Gatekeeper (37:00.489)
Right.
Juanito (37:07.014)
Protestants are schismatics? I mean by this definition that Cyprian has, we're 100 % schismatics.
The Gatekeeper (37:12.849)
So Novation, think, oh man, this is really fascinating, JS. Good job. No. Yeah, I am. Dude, I want to suddenly study this guy. I'm just browsing really quick, and I'm reading through what he taught. And I'm like, I don't know. Everything seems fine. But you've got to remember.
Juanito (37:17.99)
You can aside with the hair at Tiktaler. Look at that,
Juanito (37:35.726)
I mean, the novationists were, they were literally just baby Donatists, bro. Like, and that's problematic, not just because they were schismatics, but because they didn't believe that penance and repentance could restore a sinner to communion.
The Gatekeeper (37:51.988)
So it's... Go ahead, Tommy. There you go.
Cheddar Bob (37:53.58)
Right, well, and... Sorry about that, Taylor.
Well, I think the Novationists and the Donatists are admirable, like you were saying earlier, in their conservatism. They want to protect the purity of the church, but the fatal flaw that they make is that while they're trying to protect the purity of the church, they end up undermining the way God's grace works through, in particular, the sacraments.
Juanito (38:26.278)
Mm-hmm.
Cheddar Bob (38:26.426)
And if you undermine that, then what do you have left? So like with the Donatus controversy, it's like, well, you have to have a pure man basically for the sacraments to be rightly administered. And that's where Augustine's going to come in and blow that one out of the water and be like, that's not what makes the sacraments the sacraments. The sacraments are
Juanito (38:43.792)
Right.
Cheddar Bob (38:55.234)
to borrow the language of the Westminster, which isn't Augustine, but know, effectual means of salvation, not because of the work of any man, but because of the grace of God working in and through them.
Juanito (39:06.197)
Right, right. And what's interesting is Cyprian is actually going, so Augustine is going to differ in, I think, a really meaningful and beneficial way on how Cyprian approaches the sacraments. Because Cyprian is also going to make the point of like the unity of the church.
is expressed in the sacraments, which are part of our liturgy, which is how God has instructed us to worship, which is how we experience the presence of God. so the Eucharist, like, he basically says the Eucharist can't be transmitted into a church that has been split aside and has left its source. And so I have a couple of quotes from him that I'll read about that, which are really interesting. He says,
The Gatekeeper (39:55.231)
But before you read Augustine, before you read, OK, before you read Cyprian, I just want to say real quick, I think where he gets problematic for me is in the refusal to allow the Lapsy in. And it becomes this really gatekeep-y kind of thing. And he's basically like, if Stinn.
Juanito (39:58.062)
No, no, no, this is Cyprian, but go ahead.
Juanito (40:07.59)
Mm-hmm.
Cheddar Bob (40:22.83)
you're not talking about Cyprian here, you're talking about Nevaeja.
The Gatekeeper (40:24.626)
No, I'm talking about novation. Novation. yeah, like if sinners are let inside the church, it's going to endanger the church. I, you gotta, you gotta let people mess up and come back. That's kind of the whole point of Christianity, right? Like Peter was a lapsy.
Juanito (40:26.308)
Okay, okay, yeah, just be clear, yeah.
Juanito (40:32.87)
Mm-hmm.
Juanito (40:43.642)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. Mm-hmm. That's one of the strongest arguments that both Cyprian and especially Augustine will use. But referring to the Eucharist, Cyprian is gonna say, in this very sacrament, our people are shown to be made one so that in like manner as many grains collected and ground and mixed together into one mass make one bread. So in Christ,
who is the heavenly bread, we may know that there is one body with which our number is joined and united." So he's speaking on the oneness of the Eucharist and how it speaks to the unity of Christ. And then he has this great quote here where he says, so when he gave the rule of prayer, he added, and when you stand praying, forgive if ye have ought against anyone that your father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
He calls back from the altar, the one going to the sacrifice with angry feelings, and tells him first to be reconciled to his brother and then to come back and offer his gift to God. For God has no respect for Cain's gifts, nor could he have God at peace with him when by his envious hate he had no peace with his brother. What peace can the enemies of their own brothers promise themselves? What sacrifices do the rivals of the priests think they celebrate?
to those who gather themselves outside the church, fancy that Christ is with them when they are gathered together. And so this is leading to like probably the spiciest take that Cyprian has, which is essentially whatever you're doing outside of the church is null and void. So Cyprian's gonna say, if you get baptized in a schismatic community, you're not baptized. And if you're taking the Eucharist with the novicianists,
that's not the Eucharist and you're not worshiping. So he's very like, he is very, very kind of hardcore about like, if you've severed yourself from this like vine of the, yeah, of the apostolic succession, the authority of Christ's bishops, then you're...
The Gatekeeper (42:52.894)
Yeah, the true church apostolic succession.
Juanito (43:01.126)
then all of the gifts that God has promised to his church, you are not a recipient of.
Cheddar Bob (43:06.446)
So I don't want to step in it here because I haven't studied this in depth, but doesn't that sound kind of like kind of Donatist in its own way?
The Gatekeeper (43:06.634)
you
Juanito (43:18.296)
Explain. I'm not disagreeing, but tell me more.
Cheddar Bob (43:21.002)
Like, it's, they've separated themselves from, from the church that's defined by apostolic succession, but he's saying the sacraments aren't valid, because they are basically protesting, which kind of gets back at what Taylor was saying earlier. It reminds me of, of a more, any Episcopal tradition. That's how they would view.
Juanito (43:42.851)
Right.
Cheddar Bob (43:51.124)
even Presbyterian or possibly even Lutheran traditions as their sacraments not being valid because their priests weren't or their pastors weren't ordained by bishops and therefore they're not real sacraments.
Juanito (44:07.106)
Right, and this is why, this is one of the points that Augustine, because Augustine's whole thing is, it is not the one who administers the sacrament who gives value to it, it is the sacrament itself that has value, because the sacrament is inherently valuable. That is where Christ's presence meets us. So you, you as a parishioner don't suffer because your bishop or your priest was in some ugly secret sin or was a heretic.
and now you've received a corrupted presence of God, essentially. So he's going to disagree. So kind of where Cyprian's resolution with this conflict is going to go, which is going to get better for about five seconds and then get way worse. And I'm just going to read directly here from the book that I'm reading from, which is by Marcelino de Ambrosio, who's a wonderful Catholic theologian. He says,
When Cyprian's letter was read to his brother bishops, so he wrote this letter basically trying to resolve this giant mess that's been made. The novicianists are largely in Rome, so unlike the Donatists, Carthage is not full of conflict, but the whole church is kind of in a buzz over this. When Cyprian's letter was read to his brother bishops, they were deeply moved. Regarding the controversy over the lapse, they decided together to follow Cyprian's advice and avoid both extremes.
The lax approach of reconciliation without a period of penance was rejected. Those who had compromised their faith now needed to strengthen it through penance, which the bishops saw as spiritual therapy more than punishment. But the rigorous were rejected as well. Those who did penance, the bishops declared, could not be denied the fruit of penance, which is forgiveness and an eventual return to communion. Predictably, this decision did not please everyone.
the Lax party ordained its own bishop of Carthage. Next, the rigorous novicianists spread to Carthage and consecrated their own bishop. So now there's three bishops in Carthage over this issue.
The Gatekeeper (46:05.226)
Mmm.
The Gatekeeper (46:12.67)
Dude, I can solve, I can solve this whole problem.
Juanito (46:18.192)
Hey, is it war?
Cheddar Bob (46:18.691)
that was the congregationalism my god
The Gatekeeper (46:20.573)
Congregationalism. It's soft. Dude, it's fixed. Everybody's fine.
Juanito (46:27.051)
or everybody's a novicianist.
The Gatekeeper (46:29.894)
No, because, dude, look, let's just be very blunt here. And our listeners know that we are like the most charitable Protestants in the world. OK? So what I'm about to say, I'm not throwing shade, but like, you, when I say what I'm about to say, dude, that you read what the novicianists are saying and it sounds like John MacArthur. RIP, my friend. It sounds like Jeff Durbin.
Juanito (46:54.459)
RIP.
The Gatekeeper (46:56.806)
It sounds like very extremely conservative guys that say the evangelicals don't have it right, but we do. So you need to come worship with us.
Juanito (47:06.192)
Mm-hmm.
The Gatekeeper (47:11.378)
Am I wrong? These talking points are... I'm bringing this into the modern discussion.
Juanito (47:16.538)
I mean, but here's the problem though. The talking point of this person isn't doing this right and there is no grace for this. Like that could be taking a serious thing seriously. That could also be very entry level, like Phariseeism and works based salvation, which is what they were accusing this of. That's why this is a heresy. Like they were way too deep in.
The Gatekeeper (47:42.795)
It all stems from their level of conviction. And you got to remember, the feels are also wrapped up into this because like, you, me and Tommy, we're all elders at a church and Tommy, you know, they said that the government came by and said, Christianity is illegal, sign this. And we all got together and said, no, we're not going to sign it. And then we're like, let's just go into hiding and lay low for now. And then the government dragged John and Taylor out and
Juanito (47:46.49)
Right.
The Gatekeeper (48:11.582)
killed us in the streets. Tommy's gonna have a little bit of feelings about, know, when the persecution ends and people show up at his church and they're like, yeah, sorry. When he finds out that they handed over the Bibles and deleted their apps, whatever, Tommy's gonna have some feelings.
Juanito (48:15.974)
Sure
Juanito (48:29.798)
But here's the thing, dude. The whole idea of the Episcopal Church model is that those who are trained, educated, and experienced should make the final decision. What makes you think from this situation that the common folks will be able to make the right call here?
The Gatekeeper (48:55.333)
Yeah, it's, it's, you're right. You're right. It's, this is like entirely separated from how we understand the world and the church operates. So I get both sides is what I'm trying to say. I, I, I, maybe I'm being too charitable, but I, I don't, I'm not seeing anything that makes Novation a heretic.
Juanito (49:05.616)
Right.
Juanito (49:11.386)
Sure, yeah.
Juanito (49:22.246)
Yeah, I mean, I get it dude. Thomas, did you try to say something just now?
Cheddar Bob (49:28.466)
no i didn't but if you if you need if you need some filler i was just looking
Juanito (49:30.362)
Okay, sorry.
Juanito (49:35.846)
I don't need bailed out. really, I heard like a, and I just thought some of them was trying to say something.
Cheddar Bob (49:42.668)
You're just like, Thomas is paging us from the void of... bad editor.
Juanito (49:46.182)
was like, Thomas, what do you think about this? No, no, I think, I mean, so here's the thing. This became a mess temporarily. It didn't last. There was a schismatic group that would follow the rigorous bishop and Carthage for a period of time. It would eventually die out. The first group.
The Gatekeeper (50:03.932)
Yeah. Eventually, like hundreds and hundreds and years later.
Juanito (50:10.202)
hundreds not hundreds and hundreds
The Gatekeeper (50:12.884)
Dude, this innovation's evolved into the Donatists.
Juanito (50:16.218)
they didn't they were they were totally different because the novationists were were rome centered in the dot is for north africa they were they weren't linked they were linked in you vibes but they were it in the ball than to each other
The Gatekeeper (50:31.838)
You're saying that they didn't they did not evolve into the Donatists. Okay.
Juanito (50:36.622)
Not to my knowledge, dude, yeah, because they went through different phases and there was quite a while between the two issues. But I hear where you're coming from. But also, don't know. Preach to me the gospel of congregationalism. How does that fix this issue?
The Gatekeeper (50:57.46)
Well, first off, not everybody's going to agree on everything. And so there's different interpretations of scripture. And so it's like, where do you get off telling that your interpretation is more valid than mine? And I think there's like some rule of faith that we should submit to, right? Within the context of our local church, like if pastor so-and-so says,
Juanito (51:01.978)
Sure.
Juanito (51:13.094)
Mm-hmm.
The Gatekeeper (51:25.108)
Taylor and John, I know you guys disagree about this, but this is becoming an issue. So why don't we put this to bed? I think that, and that's in the same spirit, right? You just amplify that by millions of people is essentially what Cyprian and Ambrose are like wanting to have happen during this whole thing. But if they understood congregationalism,
Juanito (51:47.556)
Yeah.
The Gatekeeper (51:54.719)
they could have just split off and had their own thing going.
Juanito (51:59.802)
But dude, that's the whole thing that Cyprian's saying is like, there's no such thing as a church split. When you leave, you're not the church anymore.
The Gatekeeper (52:05.48)
Yes, exactly, because they don't comprehend that it's not even an option to them. And that's why Novation says, no, we're the real church. And then that's why 500 or 700, 600 years later, 800s, like the philioquy, right? And the Orthodox Church splits off and they're like, no, we're the real church.
Cheddar Bob (52:10.286)
Well...
Juanito (52:27.462)
Dude, honestly, like, when I look at church history, even from a bird's eye view, I feel like the splits that could have happened and really disintegrated the church as we know it today, it could have been way worse. That's honestly how I kind of feel about it. I don't know. like, this obviously sucks, but I think that you have to lead from the top down. And yeah, I don't know. I just...
The Gatekeeper (52:44.873)
Mmm.
Juanito (52:55.686)
I feel like if you keep splitting over every like, well, okay, you guys are gonna practice it this way, we're gonna practice it this way, then eventually you just get everything wiped into, you've got a hundred thousand little churches. And at this point in history, we can handle that now in the West with 2000 years of heritage behind us. Back then, they would have been decimated for that.
Cheddar Bob (53:19.18)
Right, that's, I think, the important thing to remember is the historical context is this is pre them having the creeds hammered out. They're like barely two centuries into the church at this point. So if you think about like, you think about even like two centuries of North American church history, like if the beginning of North American church history
Juanito (53:28.326)
Mm-hmm.
Cheddar Bob (53:46.862)
is Jesus' ascension, you know, in Pentecost, and barely two centuries later you have guys going, uh-uh, no, we're out. You know, like, that's a big deal compared to, like, I don't know, where we're at now, I think the thing that can hold the fabric of what we would call the Catholic Church together is our common...
It is our faith in the Trinity and in the resurrection. And I think the Reformed tradition has good answers for some of these things too. Like I was just looking up the Belgic Confession, which is our church's confession of faith. It defines the true church as one that's marked by three things. Pure preaching of the gospel, pure administration of the sacraments, and practice as church discipline.
Juanito (54:37.734)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Cheddar Bob (54:43.074)
I mean, it's really simple, you know, so like we can look at a church that's like, you know, meeting in, I don't know, some country all the way across the world from us that in almost every possible way is different in tradition, but you find those things present, you know, they're preaching the gospel, they're administering the sacraments and they're practicing church discipline. They're not letting people do whatever the heck they want. Like that's the true church. And I think that that's one of the beauties of
of the Reformation. we can get into the weeds of like, know, are the leaders of your church valid? You know, I would look at a lot personally, I would look at a lot of the leaders of churches in America just to pick on our own context and go like those aren't valid. there's something, I'm not a proponent of apostolic succession in the way that like Cyprian is here, but I think there's something to like, like presbyterial
succession i'm not sure that's the right way that that's right phrase the lake which which but yes that essentially taylor would affirm that to the congregation was like that there's something the like there's a there's a laying on of hands that happens essentially from the church that imparts a spiritual gift to someone who's then going to be administering the sacraments and anyway
Juanito (55:47.334)
It's like the spirit of the apostles.
Juanito (56:09.818)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Cheddar Bob (56:10.094)
I'm saying all this not to try to muddy the waters but try to try to rescue You know the 22 year old guy listening to this podcast who's freaking out that he's not in a in the true church
Juanito (56:22.948)
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, like, I, think historical context is super important because again, like one thing Taylor said that I completely agree with is that there was a huge emotional charge behind everything happening because they just went through the, they, they went through 40 years where they thought they were finally cool with Rome and then went through 14 months of really awful persecution that totally rattled the church.
So not only are they dealing with 14 months of violent trauma, they're also like, we thought we were safe, like, and now we feel totally destabilized again. And what sucks is before Cyprian's life is even over, they're to go through another wave of persecution. So in their minds, like the need for unity was almost like a survival instinct. It's like, we have to stay unified. If we don't, we will not survive.
The Gatekeeper (56:51.85)
Mm-hmm.
The Gatekeeper (57:17.446)
It also comes down to their understanding of how the sacraments are administered. So like there has to be a true church, right? So anyway.
Juanito (57:22.778)
Sure. Yeah.
Juanito (57:27.525)
Mm-hmm.
Juanito (57:31.076)
Yeah, no, I agree. Here, I'll say a few more things so we can kind of wrap up our story of our man Cyprian here. I did mention this before, but I just wanted to share it in full context. because the church is going to splinter, which again, Cyprian would say, that's not splintering, it's not the church. There will be churches established in Carthage under
both of these bishops who do not agree with Cyprian and they will have Christians come to them and they will be baptized and some of those Christians will be like, holy crap, this isn't the real church. And then they'll go to Cyprian and be like, hey, can we buddy up with you guys? And Cyprian is going to say, you can, but you need to get baptized again, which
Cheddar Bob (58:20.172)
The original Anabaptist.
Juanito (58:22.168)
Yeah, well, hey, in the historical context, this is probably the most controversial take that Cyprian has because even the new pope around this time, not Pope Cornelius, but Pope Stephen is going to get wind of this. And he's going to be like, yo, you guys can't make people get rebaptized. And he's going to say to Cyprian, as long as the baptism is performed in the name of the triune God with water.
Cheddar Bob (58:44.141)
Yeah.
Juanito (58:52.066)
sacrament is valid even if it's conferred by a schismatic and Cyprian's basically like psych like he's not he's not gonna take that and i i i don't disagree with you man because this is the argument that i mean i think almost every christian tradition that i can think of maybe not the orthodox but i think just about every christian tradition would say
The Gatekeeper (59:02.27)
Hope Stephen being very generous.
very, that's good.
Juanito (59:21.946)
that if you're baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, even if you were baptized Catholic and then going to a Protestant church or whatever, they're not going to rebaptize you. Well, actually, Baptists rebaptize, Taylor? I'm not saying this to be pretentious.
The Gatekeeper (59:36.074)
Some no, no, no, I don't you know, you don't sound pretentious some do our church our church would require Mm-hmm. Yeah
Juanito (59:40.633)
Okay.
really okay okay good to know good to know i know that a lot of reform churches would not i mean even the crc in a it's in their it's in our book of church order that we don't read that size even if they come from catholic or orthodox whatever on this is what's going to a prompt syprian to write one of his most well-known statements which is outside the church there is no salvation which is is not a shocker to anyone to hear him say that because of course that's that's who he is and he who does not have the church for his mother
cannot have god as his father there they're not bad
Cheddar Bob (01:00:14.798)
Those are both banger quotes by the way. I would say the reform confessions say the exact same thing. They probably mean different things.
The Gatekeeper (01:00:21.266)
Yeah, they reach those conclusions far differently.
Juanito (01:00:21.54)
Yeah, The terms are a little different. But again, Augustine is going to come by, face a very similar situation about a hundred and some years later. And while he's not going to completely contradict Cyprian, he is going to come to a view of the sacraments that is different, which I think the church is better for.
The Gatekeeper (01:00:27.882)
That's a quote.
Juanito (01:00:45.766)
the end of syprian story is kind of a bummer well it's a bummer if you're you're a material man it's it's a victory if you're a fear of christian who loves martyrdom because syprian is going to be around for another wave of persecution this time under emperor valerian is gonna be forced back into hiding for another period of time but by the time he returns sis our persecutions gonna get even more severe
and he will be as an unrepentant bishop, condemned to death. And he will give his witness before the proconsul in AD 258 and he will be beheaded, giving his life for the sheep. I have a transcript here of the reading that happened at his trial where the proconsul, Galerius Maximus says, are you Thacius Cyprianus? Cyprianus says I am.
And Galerius says, the most sacred emperors have commanded you to conform to the Roman rites. Cyprian says, I refuse. Galerius says, what's that? Galerius says, take heed for yourself. Cyprian says, do as you are bid. In so clear a case, I may not take heed. And Galerius is going to say, after conferring with judicial council, you have lived a long and irreligious life.
Cheddar Bob (01:01:51.17)
I'm good off that, bro.
Thank you.
Juanito (01:02:11.238)
and have drawn together a number of men bound by an unlawful association, and professed to yourself an open enemy to the gods and the religion of Rome. And the pious, most sacred and august emperors have endeavored in vain to bring you back to conformity with their religious observances, whereas therefore you have been apprehended as principal and ringleader in these infamous crimes. You shall be made an example to those whom you have wickedly associated with you.
the authority of law shall be ratified in your blood. It is the sentence of this court that Theseus Cyprianus be executed with the sword." And Cyprian's final remark, thanks be to God. Boom, boom, boom. Yeah, yeah.
Cheddar Bob (01:02:54.19)
Dude that's so good finished on a strong note So fun fun little fact for the ch4c cinematic universe This is one month after Lawrence the Deacon was martyred. So this is the same persecution They kill Pope Sixtus and then they kill Lawrence and then it's like it appears it's like the persecution then spreads out of Rome hits, North Africa and in Cyprian dies
Juanito (01:03:04.71)
Mm-hmm.
Juanito (01:03:10.97)
Dang. Mm-hmm.
Juanito (01:03:21.22)
Yeah, yeah, this is a, this is a, cause this is right in middle of the third century. And we, did a whole episode on the third century of Rome and the persecutions and just in Roman history, the third century was a really inst unstable time, which means that it was a bad time for the church. Cause the church became a very easy scapegoat. but yeah.
Cheddar Bob (01:03:44.536)
Yeah, another note, think reading that the defending Constantine book has been really eye-opening for me understanding more about like why these persecutions were happening. I mean, like the Romans really, really, really did put a lot of stock in their way of sacrifice. Like they saw that as like the kind of like the throbbing heart of Rome. Like this was what drove their
Juanito (01:04:05.379)
Mm-hmm.
Cheddar Bob (01:04:14.23)
their empire and the Christians just totally mess all that up. And so whenever things aren't going right, it's like, well, what do we do? We kill the Christians. And I don't think we've talked about this on an episode before. This is an interesting thing that I've read, but Eusebius says that at Nicaea, one of the first things that Constantine does when he walks in is one of these guys who had withstood the persecutions of the third century.
Juanito (01:04:23.12)
Mm-hmm.
Cheddar Bob (01:04:42.684)
had had his art plucked out constantine goes up to me kisses his empty eye socket which is just like this powerful moment for all these bishops who experienced all these things that we're talking about right now to then see a later roman emperor cannot pay homage to that to that persecution that
Juanito (01:04:49.478)
Hmm.
Juanito (01:04:57.115)
Mm-hmm.
Juanito (01:05:04.762)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, this is great little nightcap for the story. And I think it just goes to show that schematics are bad, but pagans are worse, boys. So, you know, take that to the bank.
Cheddar Bob (01:05:17.678)
We shake hands on that at end of the day
The Gatekeeper (01:05:20.98)
Dude, that's like that meme where like the Baptist and the Presbyterian are fighting and then the Catholic shows up and then they stop and shake hands and turn and glare at the Catholic.
Cheddar Bob (01:05:23.938)
Yeah.
Cheddar Bob (01:05:31.712)
Yeah. Taylor sent that to our group chat and he was like me and Tommy.
The Gatekeeper (01:05:37.386)
I definitely, I see where they're coming from. What would have gotten me is the last thing I'll say. What would have gotten me in that final quote from Cyprian is when they're like the pious Roman emperors. I would have been like, no, no, no, I'm pious. You're not pious.
Juanito (01:05:38.022)
Gosh.
Juanito (01:05:55.014)
Mm-hmm.
Juanito (01:05:58.832)
Well, dude, that's what's so interesting is like you compare Cyprian and the schematics and the Romans and all three of them are like, we are the most pious religious types. Like back then to be irreligious was like an insult. Every leader with an opinion thought they were the most right and religious of the flock. And that's just, I don't know. That's so interesting to me. All right.
Cheddar Bob (01:06:16.376)
Hmm.
The Gatekeeper (01:06:27.368)
Yeah, not much has changed.
Juanito (01:06:29.188)
Good stuff, boys. All right, boyos. This has been fun. Listener, thanks for hanging with us. Feel free to shoot us some fan mail, throw a little comment on our Spotify, or leave us a nice review, or leave us a mean review. We'll take it. We're big boys. I'm not going to cry about it. All right. Thanks, guys. We love you. We'll see you next time.
The Gatekeeper (01:06:37.566)
Yeah.
The Gatekeeper (01:06:43.773)
Yeah.
The Gatekeeper (01:06:53.823)
Bye bye!
Cheddar Bob (01:06:55.672)
God bless you.
