The First Ever Guide to Christian Apologetics: The Letter to Diognetus

Imagine you're writing a letter to the President (or Emperor, depending on what era you live in).

Point by point, you bring up each idol of that day and age, and refute it thoroughly. Then you explain, it clear and compassionate terms, that the reader should submit themselves to the God of Christianity, repent of their sins, and commit to a Christian life. 

Actually, the more I talk about it, the less crazy it sounds. 

But this is essentially what we see in the 2nd Century document known as the Epistle to Diognetus, one of church history's FIRST EVER written apologies of the Christian faith. 

Join Jonathan Taylor Thomas as we crack open another tall can of church history. 

Buy us a coffee: https://buymeacoffee.com/chumphistory

Chapters

• 0:00 Banter Banter Banter
• 6:33 The Good Stuff

Transcript

Juanito (00:00.845)
Hey everybody, welcome to Church History for Chumps. My name is John, what in tarnation? Simon, and I'm here with Thomas, good golly gosh, do well, and Taylor, get a load of this guy, Treadway.

The Gatekeeper (00:16.15)
Hey-o. Is that the document that you had to open up when you hit record the first time? Guys, guys, listeners, he hit record, we started, and he goes, wait a second, hang on.

Mynameisskrillex (00:17.611)
Nice.

Juanito (00:19.203)
What did you guys think of that?

I don't speak of the documents. I don't speak of the documents.

Mynameisskrillex (00:26.99)
No document.

Juanito (00:35.895)
Look, everyone needs a little pizzazz. You know what they say, if you can't hook them in the first like 10 seconds, then they're gonna forget about a better podcast they should be listening to instead. So we gotta get them latched in.

The Gatekeeper (00:43.568)
Yeah, they're gone.

The Gatekeeper (00:49.519)
Look, anybody interested in church history does not have a lot of options. They have like us or like, today's Anglicanism we're discussing.

Juanito (00:53.987)
Mm-hmm.

Juanito (01:02.467)
You

Mynameisskrillex (01:03.566)
my god.

Juanito (01:06.925)
Of all the traditions, why'd you bully Anglicanism just now?

The Gatekeeper (01:10.245)
because they stole one of our seminary professors.

Mynameisskrillex (01:11.746)
I'm not sure, are there any Anglican Church History podcasts?

Juanito (01:13.635)
well, there's our boy. There's Our Church Speaks by Ben Lansing. Yeah. Real interesting podcast there, Ben. Hmm. Yeah. It makes me wonder if maybe you guessed it on somebody else's podcast and thought I can do that.

Mynameisskrillex (01:21.188)
yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mynameisskrillex (01:32.012)
Yep. I'm pretty sure when we last episode we did with him I called him out on that. I don't know if that was good idea but I did.

Juanito (01:37.323)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, and I stand by it, you know.

The Gatekeeper (01:42.447)
Do you guys, do you hear about Matt Barrett leaving Midwestern?

Mynameisskrillex (01:42.894)
Mm-hmm.

Mynameisskrillex (01:46.562)
Yeah, that was the... Man, the Baptists were real mad about that on Twitter. my goodness. No. Even worse. For the Baptists, he became an Anglican.

The Gatekeeper (01:50.972)
Dude, from baptism or from, he became an Anglican. Dude, so as you guys, I was at Collegiate Week, which is like the BSMs, Baptist Student, like college ministry, whatever. There's a couple of different names. That's right. Christian Challenge, all of those. It's like their big summer camp, right? I was out there in Oklahoma and Southwestern.

Juanito (01:51.853)
Did he, did he apostatize?

Juanito (01:56.361)
no!

no! Heavens no!

Juanito (02:10.189)
Big sexy mama.

The Gatekeeper (02:20.763)
I had a booth to Southwestern Seminary and they had like a whiteboard for the kids to write on. And one of the things they wrote was like, what's your hot take? And one of the hot takes written, I just walked by and looked at the board was like, Anglicanism is trash. was like, it was like, it was like three days after Matt Barrett did his thing. was like, Doug, yeah, the Baptist were mad, Tommy.

Mynameisskrillex (02:35.423)
my gosh.

Juanito (02:36.419)
It's not a hot take. Hot take at a Baptist convention? Come on.

Juanito (02:44.941)
Man, yeah. Who do you think would win in a fight between like a room full of Baptists and a room full of Anglicans?

Mynameisskrillex (02:46.488)
They were very angry.

The Gatekeeper (02:54.213)
Well, the Baptist are all some big boys.

Mynameisskrillex (02:54.742)
What kind of

Juanito (02:58.243)
That just means low stamina. means they're, they can tank a hit. Anglicans, I don't know. feel like they got.

The Gatekeeper (03:01.305)
He just got to sit on him.

Mynameisskrillex (03:06.542)
It depends on if you're, if you, if you're just drawing, you know, random 10 Anglicans from the world or from America. Cause if you, if you go world, I mean, you're going to get some, some jacked Africans in there. If you go, if you go America, it's going to be a bunch of like, uh, 68 year old women.

Juanito (03:13.805)
That's a good point.

The Gatekeeper (03:18.521)
Yeah, it's actually terrifying. It's not like NT, right? You know?

Juanito (03:18.915)
True.

Juanito (03:28.547)
yeah, okay. Let's say there.

The Gatekeeper (03:30.713)
I'm just saying Albert Moeller could take NT Wright in a fight.

Mynameisskrillex (03:35.832)
Yeah, he's got that vitality.

The Gatekeeper (03:37.713)
I hope not.

Juanito (03:37.761)
I don't think, I feel like Al Moeller in his prime versus NT Wright in his prime. I think Wright wins. I don't know. Six out of 10. He's just tall. He's just tall. You know what they say about tall people? Harder they fall, Taylor.

The Gatekeeper (03:45.029)
Dude, Albert Moeller is huge.

I don't know, he's got the... He's got them... He's a big boy.

Juanito (03:56.269)
He's just tall. NT Wright lives in the world of stabbing. That means they have to know how to use their hands, bro.

The Gatekeeper (04:02.476)
my god.

Mynameisskrillex (04:03.852)
Hey, well speaking of that, Al Moller probably has a gun.

The Gatekeeper (04:07.985)
Amen.

Juanito (04:08.468)
I mean, but this isn't a weapons fight. I'm just saying. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, gosh. If it's weapons included, then of course the Baptists would, this would be a

Mynameisskrillex (04:10.869)
okay, okay, okay.

The Gatekeeper (04:17.713)
I don't like, I don't like on our very ecumenical podcast postulating about which of our theological heroes would win in a violent fight. Oh man.

Mynameisskrillex (04:25.87)
Shoot the other one.

Mynameisskrillex (04:30.89)
really high quality banter

Juanito (04:33.26)
Would you guys ever, if you guys ever got big, would you ever initialize yourselves like NT Wright or don't know, GK Chesterton?

Mynameisskrillex (04:40.206)
I've thought about that a lot actually and I just don't think mine has a nice ring. It would be T E Duel. And then everybody would call me Ted, which I do have some, there's a couple people in my life who call me Ted or Teddy because they know that's my initials. But I don't know, it doesn't kind of have that. I feel like the second letter has to be a consonant, you know? And T right, you know? It's the S Lewis.

Juanito (05:01.834)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

The Gatekeeper (05:03.735)
I... There's... So first off, in this world where Taylor gets big, I don't know if anyone wants to live in that world. Like... Wayne's. T.W. Treadway works very well. Yeah. T.W. Treadway works great. I know. I

Mynameisskrillex (05:13.016)
What's your middle initial?

Juanito (05:17.972)
Hold on, that is good. I like it. If only you had the skills to make it worthwhile.

Mynameisskrillex (05:24.782)
you

Juanito (05:27.49)
T W Tre... Sounds a little bit like DW, like Arthur's sister. Yeah. JT Simon. I mean... Not opposed. I think it's pretty solid. I it's pretty good. Yeah.

Mynameisskrillex (05:31.011)
huh, that's what I thought.

The Gatekeeper (05:32.465)
Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (05:36.475)
Yeah, JT Simon's good.

The Gatekeeper (05:41.253)
What if it was like J... John Thomas S?

Juanito (05:46.166)
Has anyone done that? That just sounds like it's breaking.

The Gatekeeper (05:46.929)
The author known as John.

Juanito (05:53.507)
How about John T. No, that's actually pretty normal. John T. Simon. I'm giving away too much of my name. I feel like someone's going to use this to start stealing my banking information soon.

The Gatekeeper (05:59.259)
Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (06:04.241)
You and Tommy are like convinced that you're gonna get doxxed. Meanwhile, I'm like, I work at Gateway Seminary. Our address is 3210 East Guaston.

Mynameisskrillex (06:05.003)
man.

Juanito (06:14.016)
My life's name is Brandy. She's a teacher.

The Gatekeeper (06:16.177)
Yeah, exactly. I don't know. People can find me.

Juanito (06:22.464)
Yeah, yeah. Alrighty gang. Well, should we, should we hop into the episode for today? All right. I got a, I got a fun one. No, I like we're going in blind. think, I think we'll enjoy this one. So here we go. All right. I'm really proud of this cold open. So, get, get, get comfortable, you know, check your, yeah, there we go. All right. Why you guys imagine something? The year is 1436. You live in the bustling city of Constantinople.

Mynameisskrillex (06:27.608)
Let's do it. We don't know what we're doing. What do you got?

Juanito (06:53.004)
You're a fishmonger. Your father was a fishmonger. Your brothers are fishmongers. And you know what? You're darn proud of it. If the Lord shows mercy, your sons and maybe even your daughters will be fishmongers too. The early morning shipments have just come in and many of them wrapped in these loose sheets of parchment haphazardly. What will the morning shipments include? Some prized sturgeon? A couple hundred pounds of mackerel?

Maybe even Paulinos, a delicious fish known to inhabit the warm waters during the autumn season. Suddenly, something catches your eye. As you and your peers begin to carry fish from the docks into the containers that you'll haul up to the market, you notice some strange writings on one particular sheet of paper. You instinctively shrug it off, thinking it to be nothing, but a voice in your head is persistent and you can't help but wonder what it could be.

As you peel the paper off the fish, a flatfish for anyone wondering, you see strange inscriptions that you've never seen before. It looks like there's something significant about this. So as you finish your shifts, you're kind of wiping the fish guts off on your apron, you know, you're washing your hands, doing all the things that you would do in, I don't know, 15th century Constantinople. You take the discovery to the local librarian and you realize

that you've just made a discovery of a piece of church history that has been lost for over a thousand years. Gentlemen, we have just discovered the lost transcript of the Epistle of Diognetus.

The Gatekeeper (08:34.619)
That was a good cold open. What got me the most is I want to know how much time you spent researching the fishing cabins. Yeah, the fish. want to see listeners, I want to see John Simon's Google history so bad. Like

Juanito (08:36.493)
Thanks man. Yeah.

Mynameisskrillex (08:36.888)
Love it.

Mynameisskrillex (08:42.84)
Fishmonger Life.

Juanito (08:43.277)
The fish.

You

Mynameisskrillex (08:51.18)
Yeah, yeah, it's just like what kind of fish would a fishmonger in 1437 find?

Juanito (09:00.513)
Ugh. Ugh.

The Gatekeeper (09:02.114)
Then he cuts in with this seasonal fish. What was it available in autumn? And then you knew how it tasted. What the?

Juanito (09:07.96)
No,

I him.

Mynameisskrillex (09:15.138)
Dude.

Juanito (09:15.435)
I was like, I was like, hey Google, what fish would I have in Constantinople in 1436? yeah, it was, it was really, that's awesome. It just made, it just made Tommy's phone go off. Yeah. You know, here's the thing in the, in the world of, in the world of church history, I, I spare, I spare no expense.

The Gatekeeper (09:30.987)
my gosh.

Mynameisskrillex (09:32.43)
Ha ha.

Juanito (09:41.06)
at turning leaving every stone unturned for the sake of historical accuracy but we're not talking about fish today gentlemen we're talking about the epistle of Diagnetes now raise your hand if you guys are familiar at all with the epistle of Diagnetes because to be fair about forty eight hours ago i was not so i'll raise my hand as as not knowing but you guys any any awareness any familiarity is there

The Gatekeeper (10:06.449)
That was before the SBC was started, no idea. never heard of it in my life.

Mynameisskrillex (10:06.624)
I would have... You got that... Did you figure that out when you heard 1437? I think I read it in a collection of patristic stuff a number of years ago and I haven't returned to it since. I remember liking it but it's been long enough I don't remember anything so this will be educational.

Juanito (10:09.283)
That's true. Just, just before. Just, just outside the window.

The Gatekeeper (10:15.387)
That's right.

Juanito (10:29.25)
Yeah.

Juanito (10:33.763)
dude it's it is a banger it is a it is a big-time banger so essentially this this kind of goes back to like the Didache for those of you guys who remember the Didache which is probably one of if not the oldest like record of Christian writings in church history this is kind of in that same vein and so it's believed to be from the early second century

typically dated around 129 AD. The fun thing about it is it's completely cloaked in mystery. So there's enough historical evidence to assert that it was significant and it was written by figures who affirmed the apostolic faith. And it was written as an apology, which as we've talked about before on the show.

is not like, I'm sorry, but an apology is kind of in the flavor of the first Peter verse, which is the defense of the faith. is speaking to one typically who is outside of the faith to kind of say, this is what you're getting wrong. This is an invitation or sometimes in bolder authors, a command to listen to the voice of God and conform to the good news of the gospel.

The Gatekeeper (12:00.943)
Like what Tucker Carlson does?

Juanito (12:01.091)
Apologies, you're gonna get.

Yeah, In fact, I'd love to hear a lot of Tucker Carlson apologies personally. yeah, apologies are going to get really popular around the time of Justin Martyr who is not long to come along in church history at this point in time because Justin Martyr, who's kind of a philosopher's philosopher, is going to write a number of these apologies, as will several figures in the early church.

Mynameisskrillex (12:04.526)
Hmm.

The Gatekeeper (12:10.833)
Ha

Juanito (12:34.537)
And so, yeah, we don't know who it was, who wrote it. It's believed there's like theories that it was potentially written to the Emperor Hadrian, but that's not confirmed. If it was written to a guy named Diognetus, nobody's really sure who that guy is. And when it was discovered, again, in this silly fishmonger story, which is legit, like it was...

rediscovered after being underground for over a thousand years as a piece of paper wrapped around a fish. That is the story. Which is, yeah.

Mynameisskrillex (13:10.51)
That's really cool. It's also weird to think of like 1437 to us is ancient history, but to think that they in 1437 found this thing that was like super ancient. That's really cool.

Juanito (13:22.883)
Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. And I, literally can't imagine like what, what caused this person to be like, my fish wrapping has an interesting look to it today. I should really take this in.

The Gatekeeper (13:38.097)
You know, depending on who you interact with and like kind of what their worldview is, I was reading something just today and I wish I could have remembered it, but somebody said, well, well, all of this is relatively new. And they were talking about like the fifteen hundreds.

Juanito (13:54.628)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So yeah, the time feels a little different, now, but back then for sure. Yeah, so it's a very interesting, so it's really short. Like Thomas was saying, it's something you could read probably shorter than it would take you to read through maybe the Book of Romans. It's broken up into 12 chapters.

The Gatekeeper (13:57.007)
the hell?

Juanito (14:21.487)
but each chapter, much like the biblical epistles, I don't know, a couple paragraphs at longest. And it is a very clear cut, very easy to understand, probably because of the good work of translators over the years. But it's just a very straightforward apology, kind of greeting this individual who has expressed some interest in the Christian faith. He immediately goes to addressing

kind of the vanity of the Roman idols and takes some very like biblical kind of Isaiah-esque arguments of being like, you guys are praying to wooden statues. Who made the statues? Was it a person? Doesn't that seem kind of dumb? And kind of building out from that. And then, you know, he goes into Judaism and saying like, yeah, we came out of Judaism as Christians, but.

He goes pretty hard against Judaism being really caught up in superstition and how their rituals don't quite have the heft because they pointed towards Christ, but they haven't quite connected it with Christ. And then he just goes into explaining everything about Christianity that is just really beautiful. And what's amazing is this is such an early text of church history, and yet you could read this and by and large, like,

really just be like, yeah, I'm on board with like 100 % of what this says. Like there's really not a lot of comments or statements that are like, I don't know. Maybe that was, you know, a different view. It's really like, yeah, all of this is something that I would stand behind. So, yeah.

Mynameisskrillex (16:06.542)
I'm looking at the first, just the way it opens is even great. Most excellent Diagnetists. I can see that you deeply desire to learn how Christians worship their God. And then he lists a bunch of the questions that, and this is actually, this could be really fascinating to get a sense of like, what were second century inquirers, seekers in the second century, what were they asking about? And so the questions, what is it?

Juanito (16:29.343)
Mm-hmm.

Mynameisskrillex (16:34.24)
about the God they believe in, in the form of religion they observe that lets them look down upon the world and despise death? Why do they reject the Greek gods and the Jewish superstitions alike? What about the affection they all have for each other? And why has this new group and their practices come to life only now and not long ago? Excellent questions. That's so good.

Juanito (16:42.423)
Yeah.

Juanito (16:55.693)
Right.

Yeah, I mean, and this is like, if you were to write an apology or even just on a more casual basis, if you were to have a conversation with someone who was not a Christian, the first thing you would try to understand are what are their questions about the world around us, about God, about the Christian faith? What do they understand to be true of the world around us? And then you would engage that. So it's like,

Yeah, the rules of apologetics, the rules of explaining and teaching the faith have been pretty universal for the past 2000 years. Like they weren't doing something totally uncanny and impossible to replicate back then. So yeah, I've got a handful of passages that I just want to read just because a lot of them are just really, really well written. Yeah, one of the things that I read was that

While there's not a whole lot that we know about the author of this epistle, one thing is that this dude was just a whiz at Greek. Greek was the language that it was written in, but also it's just incredibly well written. So it's believed that whoever wrote this was probably at least fairly well educated and had some rhetorical, rhetoric skills when it comes to ancient Greek. But I want to read it.

Mynameisskrillex (18:19.39)
as you say, everything that you're saying right now in the format of it reminds me a lot of Luke's writings, where like he's writing to like maybe a benefactor or someone inquiring about the faith and he just delivers this absolutely pristine document with sound logic, sound Greek. It's perfect and just hands it off as a as an apologetic.

Juanito (18:20.227)
I'll go ahead.

Juanito (18:28.067)
Mmm.

Juanito (18:47.201)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's super cool. So he's speaking, this is kind of, I think from the fourth or fifth chapter. So he's going to spend the first couple chapters talking about, yeah, you believe in the Roman religion. I'm not sure I buy that. The idolatry thing seems kind of weird. We're not the same as the Judaizers. We believe differently. So who are Christians? Let me tell you who Christians are. So speaking of Christians, he says,

They dwell in their own countries, but simply as sojourners. As citizens, they share in all things with others, and yet endure all things as if foreigners. Every foreign land is to them as their native country, and every land of birth as a land of strangers. They marry, as do all others, they beget children, but they do not destroy their offspring, which I think is like such a funny jab to be like, you know, there's something they don't do. They don't do that. They have a common table.

Mynameisskrillex (19:35.96)
Wow.

The Gatekeeper (19:40.197)
They don't sacrifice their children.

Juanito (19:42.788)
Yeah, they have a common table, but not a common bed Another jab there we go. They are in the flesh, but they do not live after the flesh They pass their days on earth, but they are citizens of heaven They obey the prescribed laws and at the same time surpass the laws by their lives They love all men and are persecuted by all they are unknown and condemned They are put to death and restored to life. They are poor yet make many rich

They are in lack of all things, and yet abound in all things. They are dishonored, and yet in their dishonor are glorified. They are evil spoken of, and yet are justified. They are reviled and blessed. They are insulted and repay the insult with honor. They do good, yet are punished as evildoers. When punished, they rejoice as if quickened unto life. They are assailed by the Jews as foreigners and persecuted by the Greeks.

yet those who hate them are unable to assign any reason for their hatred.

The Gatekeeper (20:44.773)
Wow. Are these little scripture sub notes that are like embedded in the text? Is that part of the original text?

Juanito (20:46.038)
Yeah.

Juanito (20:56.031)
I imagine it's probably translators notes, but it's very possible. Yeah. My only thought is like, I don't know if the, if they would have the scriptures broken into like referenceable like chapters and verses. Yeah. So that's kind of my thought. Yeah. But he just kind of talks about like,

The Gatekeeper (21:02.193)
That'd be really interesting.

Mynameisskrillex (21:14.872)
No, that's pretty modern.

The Gatekeeper (21:16.389)
Well, that's super that's actually super modern. Yeah, good point. Good point.

Juanito (21:24.385)
Yeah, like Christians have really encapsulated this concept of virtue and there's this incredible thing that despite the fact that Christians are consistently virtuous, they are reviled and attacked and treated poorly. But even in that mistreatment, they continue to walk as people of integrity for the glory of God, knowing that they live in the world, but they belong to heaven.

and just, yeah, just beautiful stuff. Another passage I want to read from is, I think probably one of my favorite points that he makes because, you know, I was a classics minor in, in college. And when you read the stories from like Greek and Roman mythology, the concept of how they understood divinity and

the gods that they served. Like those gods were like, they were fickle, they were vindictive. Like Zeus is like the head honcho in the Greek pantheon. And this dude is like constantly just disguising himself as like different people and creatures so he can sleep with women. Like he's like, just like a skeet, like, like an awful sleaze ball constantly. And so this author is kind of saying,

Here's this understanding you have of like the Roman religion and how your divine beings relate to you. Now imagine this, and here's the quote. He says,

as a savior he sent him and as seeking to persuade not to compel us for violence has no place in the character of God." So he's like, there was no like angel, there was no demigod. Like the incredible transition from the Roman cult religion and Christianity is realizing that the God that you serve actually gives a rip about you.

Juanito (23:47.254)
and has a compassionate heart towards you to the extent that they would undergo suffering on your behalf and not solely demand the suffering of others for their own behalf. Like that is a crazy transition to get to. And I think he just articulates that super.

Mynameisskrillex (24:07.926)
I love it, I'm just looking through this. I really, really wanna give this a reread now.

The Gatekeeper (24:13.965)
I'm looking over who people think could have authored it. And it's basically everyone that was alive. This could have been Clement of Rome. It could have been Apollo. It's a Martian. Could have been Martian. Hippolytus, Theophilus, Aristides.

Juanito (24:24.931)
Yeah.

Juanito (24:31.948)
You

Juanito (24:35.659)
Yeah, another thing dude is like this was an age where not only was the church not super like developed but a lot of it was underground because persecution was so sporadic so they didn't have a lot of freedom to keep a ton of records around this time so it's just harder to kind of trace the lineage back but yeah I don't think they really have a single clue of what of who this was.

The Gatekeeper (25:01.745)
If this is dated to early second century, that's crazy. That's crazy that...

Juanito (25:07.7)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (25:12.609)
his talking points about Christians. And even if it's not dated second century, it's either early fourth. Like the latest it is is early fourth. So this is like still, all these talking points are so interesting that it's, it's like Christian apologetics to this day.

Juanito (25:31.595)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mynameisskrillex (25:33.518)
Good job.

Juanito (25:36.096)
no, I was going to say for reference for some of our listeners who kind of know where we're at in terms of like episodes. So this would have been 20 years after the martyrdom of Ignatius and 20 years, give or take some change before the martyrdom of Polycarp. So yeah, this was, like I said, this is early, early stuff. Could have been, man. I don't know.

Mynameisskrillex (25:58.786)
Maybe it our boy Policarp.

Juanito (26:05.719)
Guess is as good as mine.

Mynameisskrillex (26:07.854)
I'm looking at this the way it concludes. I don't know if you had content on that. I don't want to jump on your train. It's really interesting. in the final chapter, he's basically like, and this is for those who are listening, you really ought to go look this up. When we say chapter, it's like a paragraph. So it's 12 chapters, but it's like 12 paragraphs. Like you could read it in 20 minutes. The final chapter, he's basically like, all right, so now I've.

Juanito (26:13.455)
Go for it.

Mynameisskrillex (26:36.152)
hold you all of these things. And then he riffs on the theme of the Garden of Eden and he basically to the listener, Diagnetus, he's saying almost like the garden is in your heart and he's like you have the tree of knowledge and the tree of life have been planted and the tree of knowledge is not what destroys. He says it is disobedience that proves destructive.

He says, And he goes on, he's basically saying,

Juanito (27:23.299)
Mmm.

Mynameisskrillex (27:33.932)
You have the knowledge, you have access to the life. If you don't lay claim to these things, then you won't have life, just like in the Garden of Eden. But it's on access for you. It's a very, it's like, I don't know, we see like, you the end of a evangelistic conversation that we might imagine today would be like, choose Jesus, or repent and believe, like nothing wrong with those things. But this is like such a beautiful unfolding of that call.

Juanito (27:41.571)
Mm-hmm.

Mynameisskrillex (28:03.886)
Hey, like this has been made known to you now.

Juanito (28:03.938)
Yeah.

Juanito (28:07.459)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Another thing that I thought was really interesting was there's a quote where he references God giving his son as a ransom, which is a very biblical concept. But I that was really interesting because when we look at how the church understood the idea of atonement, there's kind of like this seasonal, I don't know,

It kind of goes through different seasons where the church kind of understands just different glimpses of the atonement in different ages. And during the early church, they're very big on this idea that Christ was kind of offered as a ransom to satisfy this necessary kind of guilt offering in a sense. And also this kind of Christus Victor that like

Jesus was the champion that dethroned the evil powers of Satan. And so I just thought it was interesting because we don't often see a lot of the ransom language in more modern writings about that. And I thought that was really interesting because that was kind of a little theological time capsule, as it were. That was chapter nine, I believe. Yeah. He says, through exceeding regard for men,

Mynameisskrillex (29:26.296)
What chapter was that in?

Juanito (29:35.896)
did not regard us with hatred, nor thrust us away, nor remember our iniquity against us, but showed great long-suffering and bore with us. He himself took on him the burden of our iniquities. He gave his own Son as a ransom for us, the Holy One for transgressors, the blameless one for the wicked, the righteous one for the unrighteous, the incorruptible for the corruptible, the immortal for those who are mortal.

Mynameisskrillex (30:07.584)
dude, this last sentence of that chapter is a banger.

Juanito (30:12.291)
Mm-hmm.

Mynameisskrillex (30:37.556)
our wisdom, light, honor, glory, power, and life so that we should not be anxious concerning clothing and food. It's so cozy. It's like God's all this good stuff. And he's like, and you don't need to worry.

Juanito (30:46.083)
I love that. I love that. That's so good.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so don't be anxious. So don't be anxious. See, dude, like, I think what I love about this, about, about this whole thing is, you know, like, I think that sometimes even in modern church, we take these like ideas and they become catchphrases and the catchphrases become stale and then they sound like cliches. But like this whole like Jesus is better idea.

It sounds kind of hokey, but it's 100 % true. Like this whole apology from 2000 years ago is him being like, yeah, dude, you can be a Roman weirdo if you want to and, you know, kneel down and praise these copper statues that your grandpa had to build for you. Or maybe Jesus, the creator of heavens and earth, who himself descended.

through heaven into the earth to bear our sufferings and then resurrected in glory to bring us into his state of immortality. Like, yeah, that's better. Like that's a better story. And even in modern day apologetics, that is kind of the story that we get to share. It's like, look, dude, maybe you're like, I don't know where people are at. Maybe they're kind of just given to the despair of

The Gatekeeper (31:55.633)
Thank

Juanito (32:18.285)
there's nothing out there or maybe they're into this like very vague spirituality or, or whatever. But it's like, Jesus is better than that, man. Like, like there is something so much greater that we have in the gospel that is, that is just wonderful.

The Gatekeeper (32:34.566)
You

You know, in lot of his, like in chapter eight, when he says, you accept of the vain and silly doctrines of those who are deemed trustworthy philosophers of whom said that fire was God calling that God to which they themselves were by and by to come? And he basically talks about, and some people said it was water and there's all these different elements that, you know, people think are God. then, but the thing is, it's like they're just created things.

and then the one who created them all revealed himself. And I don't know, it's as you said, this whole like Jesus is better as he's questioning all these other people's worldviews and belief systems. It makes me think of Pastor David and how his, one of his taglines in counseling is always, and how's that working out?

Juanito (33:06.851)
Mm-hmm.

Juanito (33:30.403)
Hmm.

Mynameisskrillex (33:30.424)
Ha ha!

The Gatekeeper (33:32.465)
How's thinking fire as God working out? And even in today's discussion is like, how is unbridled hedonism working out?

Juanito (33:37.283)
Yeah.

Mynameisskrillex (33:43.254)
Yeah

Juanito (33:44.1)
Yeah, yeah, Well, it's like our buddy, Brad Mell used to always say, what is the fruit from that? Like, is it bearing good fruit? And it's kind of that same idea. It's like, oh, so you've chosen to live this way and is the fruit good or is it bitter and are you miserable? And are you unhappy as a result of it? Is it ruining your life and breaking up your relationships? Like, that's the whole thing about Jesus being the living water, the

the vine, like all of these like life-giving images. It's like he's bringing fruit. there's, are bearing something out of this. Like I like what you said, Thomas, about the garden imagery. Like gardens are terrible if they don't have life. If they don't have life, they're just gray and dusty and ugly and stuff. So yeah, I don't know. So yeah.

Mynameisskrillex (34:42.766)
What a banger of a document.

Juanito (34:44.599)
That's it, man. Yeah. So kind of a shorter, shorter punchier one for this week. But yeah, that's the epistle to, to Diagnetus. It's a, it's a good read. Like I said, you could probably knock it out in 15, 20 minutes reader or listener. So you should check it out. It's a good time.

The Gatekeeper (35:00.271)
It looks like if you want to do some academic reading, Oxford Press has in their series, The Oxford Apostolic Fathers, they have a book on it. It's just called The Epistle to Diagnetus with the Fragment of Quadratus. So if you want to do some academic reading on the topic, there you go.

Juanito (35:27.562)
Mm-hmm, yeah.

Mynameisskrillex (35:30.958)
Sweet. That was great.

Juanito (35:31.843)
Is that it? Man, I feel like we're clocking out early today. This is kind of nice. All right.

Mynameisskrillex (35:36.77)
I know, we've been, our episodes have been trending long, which I think our folks like, but today's short and sweet.

The Gatekeeper (35:36.805)
Yeah

Juanito (35:41.057)
Yeah. I think so. Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (35:45.147)
People got long drives, man.

Juanito (35:48.995)
Yeah, it's probably true. Do we have to shout anybody out? Oh, dude, we have to do another. Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (35:50.17)
Mm-hmm.

Mynameisskrillex (35:52.94)
Yeah, we do. I wanted to... I think you're probably going for the same thing, but...

Juanito (35:58.556)
you go first. think I'm in a different place.

The Gatekeeper (36:00.292)
I just want to shout out Rowan Rowan.

Mynameisskrillex (36:01.216)
Elijah, Elijah Hershey man from Maine. Our boy from Maine. We got a listener reaching out from Maine. What's up?

Juanito (36:06.139)
let's go. That's right. Our main guy, dude. Yeah. Did we, did we make a comment? Did we say something about how we didn't think we had any listeners in Maine? I feel like we did.

Mynameisskrillex (36:17.358)
Uhhhh... I don't... maybe. This guy says, Hello from Maine. Top tier banter. I'm loving this series.

Juanito (36:21.346)
Maybe.

Juanito (36:26.273)
which we're loving Maine, man. Yeah. Maine sounds, Maine sounds awesome.

Mynameisskrillex (36:28.352)
Yep. And then I think you said in our chat, you said, we have a fan in Maine.

Juanito (36:34.664)
there we go. Have you guys ever been to Maine?

Mynameisskrillex (36:38.294)
No I want to, dude I want to go eat food in Yeah, big time. Portland, Maine is calling my name.

Juanito (36:41.643)
Yeah, lobster rolls? Okay, clam chowder?

Dude Elijah, don't don't hit up don't worry about our don't worry about our like buy me a coffee just hit up our buy me a chowder that's what I'm looking for yeah that's it yeah

Mynameisskrillex (36:57.944)
Yeah dude, send a lobster roll or delete our number, honestly.

The Gatekeeper (37:03.471)
You see what Rowan did on your birthday post, John Simon? Rowan wrote, happy birthday to the gout. Yeah, dude, he shots fired at me.

Juanito (37:07.48)
What did he do?

Mynameisskrillex (37:12.13)
the gout?

Juanito (37:12.61)
Yikes.

That's gruesome man. Gosh man. Gout of control over here bro. That's crazy. Gout of my mind. Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (37:21.911)
and got out of my mind.

Mynameisskrillex (37:23.832)
Dude, did either of you meet Rowan when he still lived here?

Juanito (37:28.715)
I've never, I've never met him. I've seen him all over socials. feel like he's. Wait, Taylor, you can't read bro. He said HBD to the goat.

Mynameisskrillex (37:30.691)
Dude dude Rowan Rowan is my absolute dog. He says go

The Gatekeeper (37:32.193)
I thought Rowan was a podcast.

The Gatekeeper (37:40.505)
No. Uh-uh. He edited it. He edited it.

Juanito (37:43.235)
It's embarrassing.

The Gatekeeper (37:48.783)
Man, and then I said, dang it Rowan, I did a whole thing. did a whole.

Juanito (37:48.951)
That's crazy.

Mynameisskrillex (37:55.0)
thought you were just mad because he called John the goat. I thought that's what your bit was. I thought that was your angle.

Juanito (37:59.778)
I wondering why you were so agitated about that, man. That's crazy. Man, you just see gout everywhere you look. That's your problem, bro. That's your problem.

The Gatekeeper (38:02.457)
I thought it said gout.

The Gatekeeper (38:10.01)
I ever send my shout out.

Mynameisskrillex (38:12.558)
He's got too many Baptists texting him saying, bro, I got bad news. got gout.

The Gatekeeper (38:17.527)
I got the gout. Spent too long, spent too long at the Texas Roadhouse.

Juanito (38:17.923)
God, to gout, to gout is the-

Mynameisskrillex (38:24.077)
Ha ha!

Juanito (38:24.451)
Degout is out. Oh man. No, we have another haiku to write because we got another supporter on. Buy me a coffee. That's true. Tommy, do you want to do a haiku for Brian Betts?

The Gatekeeper (38:31.311)
Ooh, Tommy hasn't written Haiku yet.

Mynameisskrillex (38:37.432)
I gotta remember it. So what's the syllable count? jeez. Do I have to do it on the spot or can I make one for Brian and it'll be really awesome for next time?

The Gatekeeper (38:39.409)
377.

Juanito (38:39.619)
575, stop it, stop it. 575.

Juanito (38:47.465)
No, I think we've done it on the spot. You kind of got a riff. It's like a freestyle rap, dude. Yeah.

Mynameisskrillex (38:51.67)
Okay, okay, alright, let's see. It's for BB.

Juanito (38:56.151)
Yeah man, our, our, our b-boy, Bibi.

The Gatekeeper (38:57.391)
Habibi.

Mynameisskrillex (38:58.742)
I know I'm gonna try to get Hubbiby in there. Let's see.

Juanito (39:01.675)
Okay, alright, I'll see what you can do.

Mynameisskrillex (39:08.558)
565 575 Habibi is cool

Juanito (39:10.317)
Five seven five. Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (39:10.993)
593.

Juanito (39:15.267)
Mmm.

Mynameisskrillex (39:19.224)
Betz is the...

Mynameisskrillex (39:26.824)
no! I was gonna say the king of the pool. I was gonna try to rhyme it, but I feel like rhyming in a haiku is bad idea.

The Gatekeeper (39:29.56)
you

Juanito (39:34.061)
Betz is the king of the- king of the pool would have counted! That would be seven. Betz is the king of the pool.

Mynameisskrillex (39:38.37)
Really? Well, BB is cool. Betz is the king of the pool. Betz is king of the pool. Okay, I do. We're rocking.

Juanito (39:43.895)
Yeah, now five more.

Yeah, you got it. You're almost there. Home stretch.

Mynameisskrillex (39:54.11)
let's get a cigar because he texted me the other day that he wanted to smoke. All right. There we go.

Juanito (39:58.534)
Smolin. Alright, here you go. That was maybe the best one so far. That's way better than Taylor's from last time. Remember yours, Taylor?

Mynameisskrillex (40:02.22)
Great.

The Gatekeeper (40:05.242)
I know.

Mynameisskrillex (40:05.806)
Alright, okay so, BB is cool, Betz is the king of the pool, let's get a cigar.

Juanito (40:11.747)
That's a killer. That's a killer. Yeah. That's gonna be our new thing. If you guys support us on Buy Me a Coffee, we will write you a haiku and we'll put it on the air for everyone to know. And then we'll air out to all of our listeners how good of a Christian you are, which might strip you of your treasures in heaven, but you'll get one right here on earth. That's what Jesus was talking about.

The Gatekeeper (40:13.047)
Okay, okay.

Mynameisskrillex (40:14.392)
Mmm. Mmm.

The Gatekeeper (40:31.601)
The podcast shout out.

Juanito (40:36.279)
Yeah, well, you're talking about like, you know, where your heart, where your treasure is, they're your heart is. You're, all we want our listeners treasures to be right here on the podcast.

The Gatekeeper (40:45.773)
Hmm We do want our listeners hearts make sure you guys comment on the episodes I know you guys are devoted and I know you want more people to be devoted What if you guys think about it think about this guys if you are part of the ground movement and then we blow up You're you're the OGs. I Was just thinking that

Juanito (40:56.076)
Yeah.

Mynameisskrillex (41:07.95)
and then act like we don't know nobody.

Juanito (41:08.109)
Here's the thing. Here's the thing. We just had a great episode about apologetics. If you listener were to craft an apologetic to, I don't know, the average American, how would you structure it? Put that in the comments below. We will pick our favorite answers in the next episode and our worst least favorite answers.

The Gatekeeper (41:29.112)
What the hell?

Mynameisskrillex (41:32.174)
Good.

Church History for Scholars.

Juanito (41:37.817)
We will, yeah, there we go. Our least favorite answers we will also mention in the next episode. So there we go.

The Gatekeeper (41:43.339)
okay. Wow.

Mynameisskrillex (41:49.441)
God bless you.

The Gatekeeper (41:51.44)
Bye bye.