94. The Adventures of the Apostles: Was John Really Boiled in Hot Oil?

How's that for a title, huh? We heard we're supposed to be better at hooking people. 

But seriously, few of the apostles get as wild of a post-Acts story as John. Supposedly boiled in oil, miraculously survived, and then banished to a tiny island where he wrote Revelation. Supposedly.

So let's see what the history books have to say about ol' John the Beloved. Also, we'll talk a little bit about Matthias, who was surprisingly a LOT more interesting to the early church than you'd think!

And don't forget to VOTE for our next series (details in the show, you can skip to the chapter if you prefer)!!

Buy us a coffee: https://buymeacoffee.com/chumphistory

Chapters

• 0:00 Just a Touch of Banter
• 6:17 Our Next Series???????
• 10:21 Let's Get to John!
• 41:17 Now for Matthias!
• 1:00:39 A Haiku for John's Wife

Transcript

Dinkleberg (00:00.792)
Hey everybody, welcome to Church History for Chumps. My name is John Jack Simon. That's not that good of a nickname. And Taylor Tom Treadway, Taylor.

The Gatekeeper (00:11.107)
That's also not that good of a nickname.

Dinkleberg (00:13.92)
It's just the name. Yeah, I was thinking, let me think. don't know. Titanis. Hmm, OK, what am I?

The Gatekeeper (00:18.841)
Taylor Titanus.

Titanus.

The Gatekeeper (00:26.807)
John Titanus. I don't know.

Dinkleberg (00:28.622)
not that good. Not that good. Okay. Well, hello, chump nation. It's good to see you guys again. Well, it's good to, it's good to be heard by you guys again. once again, our, our beloved sultry southerner, Thomas dwell is not with us today. and I'm sure if I can call him a southerner, he's literally from Arizona. Southern. He really is. He's got like the spirit of a cowboy. Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (00:38.094)
That's right.

The Gatekeeper (00:49.621)
He's like a cow. He's a cowboy. He's West. Yeah, he's South. He's a southwesterner. A southwesterner.

Dinkleberg (00:57.58)
Yeah, did you know his first words were Hank Williams?

The Gatekeeper (01:01.387)
I believe it. And he was smoking an unfiltered camel. As he said him.

Dinkleberg (01:07.374)
Yeah, how you doing today, man? It's it's Sunday. It's not Sunday when we're releasing, but it's Sunday when we're recording. So how was how was the Lord's Day today, brother?

The Gatekeeper (01:13.974)
That's right.

it was good. were starting Isaiah in my Bible study. So we did our introductory lesson today where we looked at the who what when where why sort of questions. Yeah, so.

Dinkleberg (01:23.948)
Hmm

Dinkleberg (01:28.28)
I love that. Dude, did, we went through Isaiah for a small group that I led a couple years ago and the Bible project videos, like breaking down the themes and like big chunks of Isaiah were like really, really helpful for that.

The Gatekeeper (01:46.014)
yeah. Yeah, I don't have a TV in my Sunday school classroom. Or I would have shown them. But yeah, man, mean, doing one chapter a week. I'm thinking, OK. Well, and for a lot of Isaiah. I'm doing the math. I'm like, we will move on from Isaiah in early 2027.

Dinkleberg (01:50.895)
yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Dinkleberg (01:57.784)
Get ready for a lot of judgment.

Dinkleberg (02:04.003)
Yeah.

Dinkleberg (02:09.998)
Dude, dude, dude, take it from me. Do clumps of chapters. You don't have to do one chapter at a time. You're going to be stuck in. All right, who is God angry at this time? it's it's it's the Crete. OK, the Cretans. All right, cool.

The Gatekeeper (02:16.665)
And we're doing one chap.

The Gatekeeper (02:23.129)
Yeah, but you know good theological conversations come up through all of those so

Dinkleberg (02:31.852)
Yeah, but you might be having the same conversation quite a bit.

The Gatekeeper (02:34.713)
You know, we might have to pivot, but we'll find out. Pivot? What about you? How was Sunday at your Southern Baptist Church?

Dinkleberg (02:37.23)
Good pivot goes long way. Good old pivot.

Dinkleberg (02:44.238)
Stop it. I don't want to talk about it. No, honestly, it's been good. My wife and I have been in a real interesting kind of pivotal time of church seeking. There's a bigger story there, but we won't get into it right now. But just no listener that day is coming. But yeah, it's been kind of a returning home in a sense, not so much to the Southern Baptists, but to

a community that really means a lot to both me and my wife, especially her, because this is actually the church that she went to before we got married. So it's been good. I think this has been a good opportunity for me to showcase what my priorities in worship really are, because I love to nerd out and I love to talk about how absolutely necessary weekly communion is and how a Reformed liturgy is just the cream of

The Gatekeeper (03:32.537)
Hmm

Dinkleberg (03:43.342)
But at the end of day, it's like, well, do I want to love a fancy reformed liturgy or do I want to love my wife? And do I want to love my neighbor and this sweet little Japanese lady who greets me and my wife with so much joy every Sunday? I'm like, okay, I think I can make do for now. This is okay. Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (04:02.739)
I dude I get it my first Sunday at our church at 11th Street Baptist I walked in wearing my I a chip on my soldier shoulder, you know salty we just moved to California I walked in wearing my my Mexican sugar skull Hawaiian shirt. That's like the edgy It's like the edgiest thing I own I was like, I'm gonna see I had tattoos on full display I was like I was like rearing for a fight and sweet little miss Barbara

Dinkleberg (04:11.671)
Mm-hmm.

Dinkleberg (04:19.191)
solid.

Dinkleberg (04:31.725)
Mmm.

The Gatekeeper (04:31.967)
sat behind us in the pew behind us and says, Well, I just love your shirt. my goodness. I just love it. And she says come back next week and I'll have a present for you. So of course I had to come back next week. She gave me dish towels that had the Mexican sugar skulls and they're still on my oven to this day. That's right.

Dinkleberg (04:45.025)
Yeah.

Dinkleberg (04:49.175)
That's so cool. That's awesome. Dude, I, I don't want to say, I don't want to generalize because as much as I love the differences in denominations, I also hate generalizing, but Baptists are so freaking sweet. They are man. They really are.

The Gatekeeper (05:06.807)
Yeah, it's like the epitome of like sweet old church lady. Yeah.

Dinkleberg (05:11.435)
Yeah, it's like, look, Southern hospitality may be a thing, but Southern Baptist hospitality, that's straight from the Holy Ghost, brother. It is. it's so sweet. So I love it. I love it. Hey, listener, podcast stuff tells us we need a call to action. So here's our call to action for you guys. Yeah, I forgot what they're even called. All right. Two, two. No, no, no. Hold on.

The Gatekeeper (05:16.921)
Ohhhh

Right.

That's good.

The Gatekeeper (05:34.122)
podcast. I, you know, they get they know what they're getting.

Dinkleberg (05:41.538)
We got to do it before the five minute mark and it's already 5 45. Darn it. Okay. Two things for you listener. One, follow our Instagram. If you're not on Instagram, which honestly you're probably more sanctified than I am, then I don't know, pray our Instagram. Second, crap, what was I going to say? leave us a comment. Okay. We are, we have heard your incredible feedback and we appreciate you so much for it.

We are going to do our darndest to be releasing series all the way through because I think that's a little bit more listable. And honestly, it's going to help us out too. So as we finish the Adventures of the Apostles series, we're going to be getting into one of three series and you humble listener have the keys of the kingdom just like Saint Peter did. So we've got three options for you. One is the Crusades. hard to beat, hard to beat. Two is going to be the Rise.

The Gatekeeper (06:13.433)
That's right.

Dinkleberg (06:40.177)
of the Catholic Church post fall of Rome and the third is going to be exploring the first and second great awakenings and all of the good, bad, and ugly that bubbled up after that. yeah, tell us what you want.

The Gatekeeper (06:44.131)
we should Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (06:55.543)
So yep, you've got a few weeks. Basically, we'll do a post on Facebook and Instagram. can follow. John doesn't like that we have a Facebook, but he has to remember that we. Right.

Dinkleberg (07:06.497)
No, I like it. It's just old. Only my aunts follow us on Facebook. And your dad. My dad doesn't even follow us on Facebook.

The Gatekeeper (07:11.913)
Right. Yep. I'm on. Well, get on it, Mr. Simon. Anyway, yes, so we're letting you guys pick which series we do next. And we're going to live there for a long time, so pick wisely. But you can vote by leaving a comment on Spotify, leaving a comment on the posts that you'll see on Instagram or Facebook. Yeah, multiple ways to vote.

Dinkleberg (07:41.173)
Exactly. Okay, because we love your input and we just really appreciate you guys. So yeah, shoot us a comment. Let us know what you're feeling and and we'll live there for a while. It'll be a lot of fun. We're excited. But.

The Gatekeeper (07:42.105)
Hmm.

The Gatekeeper (07:52.836)
That's right. love how we they just see the full behind the scenes for us. There's no illusions. It's like, podcast stuff says we have to have a call to action before five minutes. I think it's part of the charm.

Dinkleberg (07:59.67)
No, no.

Dinkleberg (08:07.863)
Here's the thing, I absolutely believe that. Like this was one thing I did when I used to preach, which I think drove my co-leaders crazy, but I always loved doing, is just like breaking down the behind the scenes of what it's like to like do ministry full time. And I don't know, I hate appearances, I hate allure. Like no, I wanna see how the sausage is made. Just talk to me, show me.

The Gatekeeper (08:32.279)
That's right. I think there's something unique to that. Like just just there's no pretense. It's this is what we're doing. I remember when I was a young man and I heard John Piper preach, she came out. I can't remember where it was. It was at some big event, right? And it might have been passion, but he comes out on stage and he goes, you know, he always mentions his preaching coat, right?

Dinkleberg (08:42.977)
Mm-hmm.

Dinkleberg (08:50.349)
It's probably passion. Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (08:58.169)
He's always like, I'm got my preaching coat on. So he's like, he's like talking about this coat he likes. And then he goes, and so guys, we're going to be in this passage today and I have seven points, possibly an eighth. We're going to see where we end up. And we're just going to start. I'm like, wow, grandpa really just was like, this is what's happening. He didn't like come out with like some dramatic story and some cadence, you know, I'm wearing my preaching coat.

Dinkleberg (08:58.327)
Mm-hmm.

Dinkleberg (09:21.257)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, stories are cool. I like the cinema. I like the kind of getting wrapped up into it. But I also like being like, like I, some of my favorite sermons that I ever preached are sermons where I start with, Hey guys, just so you know, this sermon was a real pain in the neck for me to write. And here's why. Like just immediately like revealing the humanity behind it. Like I'm not putting on a performance for you. I want to show you.

Like this, the sermon kind of sucks. Like this is a sermon about reconciliation. And I realized I'm really bad at this. Like, you know, Hey, all right. Anyways, speaking of the sausage getting made, there's a, I was going to say there's some sausage I want to see right now, but that's a little weird. Uh, but what are we, uh, we're back on the adventures of the apostles. I think we're got two today. So where are we at? Taytray.

The Gatekeeper (09:56.409)
Hmm, yep.

The Gatekeeper (10:05.095)
my god!

The Gatekeeper (10:10.201)
Yeah. Yes. So by popular demand, we are going to finish this out. And we're going to finish this series out. And I want to appreciate, was it Jackson that voted? Jackson voted that we try to keep it together. But he acknowledged the humanity behind it and said, but that's a lot of research for one person. It is. I know. I know. I love. That's right.

Dinkleberg (10:31.669)
loving guy a loving guy yeah I know he's a blessing to whatever church he goes to man I know he is yeah I don't know that I don't know that for sure I feel good about it though you know yeah

The Gatekeeper (10:38.817)
He's gotta be so thank you.

The Gatekeeper (10:44.481)
Right, right. Using our context clues and literary analysis. That's right. Yes.

Dinkleberg (10:48.683)
I- my yeah, my detective skills on judging the character of our listeners. Honestly, there's not a listener I think we have that I don't think is a good person. I'll just be honest.

The Gatekeeper (10:54.201)
my gosh.

Right. I would trust all of our listeners with my life. Mm hmm. Yep. Yep. Okay, hey.

Dinkleberg (11:02.293)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

and at the same time we would die for him because we're Christians.

The Gatekeeper (11:08.249)
That's right. And we would probably die for trusting some of them with our lives. That's right. The dichotomy of it all. OK. So yes, we're back. You ever see that movie? We're back. The dinosaurs. Yeah, it's the dinosaur animated movie. my gosh. You have to watch it. It's so good. OK. But we're back to what happened to the apostles. And we asked the lovely listeners what they wanted.

Dinkleberg (11:12.103)
Yeah, yeah, it's the back and forth. Catch 22.

Dinkleberg (11:20.407)
Mm-hmm.

It's called We're Back.

No, never heard of that. Never heard of it. Okay.

The Gatekeeper (11:38.169)
And I cannot for the life of me find where that comment for Matthias was. But there was a vote for Matthias, was there not?

Dinkleberg (11:44.288)
Okay.

Dinkleberg (11:49.323)
Maybe... Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (11:50.463)
I can't find it. I went back trying to look for it. I couldn't find it, but I remember reading it.

Dinkleberg (11:55.243)
Matthias is an interesting apostle too because he was wasn't he the last apostle brought in to kind of replace Judas? Okay. All right.

The Gatekeeper (12:04.193)
Yes. Yes. So we're actually we're gonna I'm doing I forgot I set it up this way. I was gonna say I was gonna say we gave the listeners what they wanted. They voted for Matthias. So who are we talking about today? John, the son of Zebedee, the son of thunder, John, the brother of James, but we're also gonna hit Matthias. Don't you don't you worry. Sit tight.

Dinkleberg (12:20.94)
Matthias.

Dinkleberg (12:30.006)
So that makes me, I'm already nervous now, because that makes me feel like John isn't worth a full episode.

The Gatekeeper (12:36.985)
he could have been, but dude, you okay. You gotta pick your poison here chief because you told me when I did a whole.

Dinkleberg (12:39.79)
Hmm.

Dinkleberg (12:45.518)
because I told you to double it up. did tell you to double up and I'm sorry, I'm sorry, but I didn't think you'd do it with my own namesake. I want a full episode on if John was really thrown into a big cauldron of stew.

The Gatekeeper (12:52.664)
Nah.

The Gatekeeper (12:56.505)
I looked into it. There's not that much to talk about. I mean, there is. Okay, just let's just let's just get it. Okay. So what do we know about Big John?

Dinkleberg (13:00.11)
OK, all right, let's get into it. All right, hey, take the wheel, brother.

Dinkleberg (13:08.59)
brother of james son of zebedee as you said son of thunder i believe he was he was kind of in the what's that

The Gatekeeper (13:10.699)
It's right.

That's right. Yeah. Boanergis. The Greek title, Boanergis.

Dinkleberg (13:23.042)
That's right. He was he was kind of in the inner circle.

The Gatekeeper (13:26.211)
That's right. He was one of the big three man. So he Peter and James and John like those three were they were present at basically everything raising of Jairus his daughter. All of it discourse. Transfiguration. Yeah, they were there.

Dinkleberg (13:29.186)
Big three, yeah.

Dinkleberg (13:40.238)
Transfiguration. Yeah, one of the first witnesses of the resurrection, author of

The Gatekeeper (13:47.086)
Yep.

Dinkleberg (13:51.352)
Four, maybe five books of the Bible.

The Gatekeeper (13:52.26)
John. Yeah, John and then the Johanan epistles.

Dinkleberg (13:58.969)
Because tradition loves to say that he wrote the epistles, the gospel, and Revelation. But I've actually learned recently that scholars are not convinced that he wrote Revelation. Is that true?

The Gatekeeper (14:12.833)
No, no. Well, OK. First off, there's an argument against everybody writing anything because PhDs have nothing better to do. Let me preface that. Biblical studies, PhDs have nothing. Shots fired. Gratata. No offense if you're a biblical studies person. Thank you for listening. No. OK. So he wrote John in Revelation, John 1, and.

Dinkleberg (14:22.446)
That's fair, that's fair

Dinkleberg (14:28.363)
Okay, alright, alright.

The Gatekeeper (14:42.541)
most likely the other Johns. It's yes, yes, we're giving him five because we believe in the rule of faith and the canon that we've received. Yeah.

Dinkleberg (14:45.824)
Okay. Okay.

Dinkleberg (14:55.392)
Okay, okay, I'm not opposed. I would just assumed it was some other John who was John the Revelator.

The Gatekeeper (15:01.561)
Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. So that's fair. That's fair. You know, and you actually I'm glad you mentioned that because you have Meritorian Canon and Aranaus against Heresies attributing some of this stuff to him. And those are like super early. But do we the most important thing is do we know his tradition claim? Because that's kind of been our thing. This series is we're looking.

Dinkleberg (15:04.161)
Okay. Okay. All right.

Dinkleberg (15:18.048)
Yeah, okay. Yes, definitely.

Dinkleberg (15:26.739)
for sure. He's got he's he's the exception to the rule, right?

The Gatekeeper (15:30.391)
That's right, every one of us was taught all of the disciples were killed for their faith. Except one.

Dinkleberg (15:35.114)
except the beloved John who was boiled alive, did not die, which might be worse than just dying, and then he was exiled to the Isle of Patmos where he received the visions that informed the book of Revelation.

The Gatekeeper (15:52.046)
We're not going to talk about Revelation in the episode, so we'll just do it now. I just want to say, I feel so bad for John just being brought up to be sure. Guys, think about this. Imagine some little like pygmy guy from the bushes that's like only known using fire as your most technologically advanced thing you do. And then somebody zaps you up into New York City.

Dinkleberg (16:19.886)
Mm-hmm.

The Gatekeeper (16:20.535)
and then you look around, you walk around New York City, you meet things, you hear things, and then you have to go back to the people in the bushes and try to explain to them what you saw.

Dinkleberg (16:31.054)
Okay, but you need to clarify that John was not actually transported to New York City because what you said could make it sound like Revelation was like, yeah, man, 9-11 Apache helicopters, like those were the things that he was seeing, which we do not. Well, I actually hear a Baptist. I'm not sure what you believe about that. I don't think you do.

The Gatekeeper (16:49.529)
I'm just a historic primo. I'm just, I'm just normal, dude. I'm just normal.

Dinkleberg (16:53.96)
I don't know man, the pre-mil guys are the ones who are also like, know, John was writing about 9-11 and John was writing about the Gulf War and stuff like that. Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (16:57.943)
or they could be.

The Gatekeeper (17:03.821)
Right, don't get, don't confuse me with left behind. Yeah, no, poor guy though, man. I mean, okay, he was shown, he was shown, yes.

Dinkleberg (17:10.36)
Just saying.

Dinkleberg (17:14.414)
Yes, yes. I love that analogy though, because I think the confusion of revelation, first, I think there's two things about revelation. And then again, like we don't have to talk about it very much. Two things about revelation. One, it was written to be understood. It was not written to be a big box of jumbled up cryptic puzzles that the church was gonna struggle with for 2000 years. think there was...

some understanding that the people who read Revelation were supposed to have. Second though, yeah, there's stuff about freaking like wasps with panther heads and, you know, scorpion tails. And yes, he probably saw some things that were incredible and very hard to explain. So if they look confusing, it's probably because he was confused about them himself. But yeah.

The Gatekeeper (18:04.121)
That's right. So poor guy. But it was also a blessing. And then you have Paul, who's shown something similar, but he won't tell us about it. Except he basically, he's like, I could pull this card, but you don't even deserve it. Yeah, that's right. All right. So we actually have some good scripture references today, because we get a lot about Big John. So.

Dinkleberg (18:13.571)
He's like, don't worry about it.

Dinkleberg (18:19.929)
He's like, it was for me, okay?

The Gatekeeper (18:32.857)
We have one of the references, Mark 9. This is verse 38 and 39. Basically, you know.

If they're not for us, they're against. If they're not against us, they're for us. So that's like a John kind of being shown in a negative light. But here's the other thing about the Suns of Thunder moniker. Scholarship is out on whether that is supposed to be a negative title or if it's a title like The Rock.

Dinkleberg (19:04.815)
Correct.

Dinkleberg (19:25.967)
I've heard it both ways. Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (19:27.129)
Mm hmm. That it's supposed to be it's like, well, look at them two come in trying to, you know, call fire down, which are going to read that one in a second. Call fire down and just, you know, fiery of I want to sit at the right hand, blah, blah, blah. Like, is that why there's of thunder or are they sons of thunder because they're going to, you know, James is going to be the first martyr and then to John's going to write five books in the New Testament. You know what saying?

Dinkleberg (19:34.543)
Mm-hmm.

Dinkleberg (19:40.238)
Yeah.

Dinkleberg (19:48.377)
Mm-hmm.

Dinkleberg (19:55.383)
Right, right, right.

The Gatekeeper (19:56.218)
So we don't know for sure about that, but let's read in Luke 9, this is chapter 9, verse 51. When the days drew near for him to be taken up, he set his face to go to Jerusalem. And he sent messengers ahead of him who went and entered a village of the Samaritans to make preparations for him. But the people did not receive him because his face was set towards Jerusalem. And when his disciples James and John saw it, they said,

Dinkleberg (20:01.231)
Mm-hmm.

The Gatekeeper (20:24.569)
It's one of the best lines in the New Testament. Lord, do you want us to tell fire to come down from heaven and consume them? But he turned and rebuked them and they went on to another village. Oh, dude, the thing that I hate so much is this is me. Like this is 100 % me. Like, well, how dare you disrespect Jesus, Lord, should I kill them? Jesus is like, what's the matter with you?

Dinkleberg (20:42.895)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, you want me to make an offer they can't refuse? You want me to...

The Gatekeeper (20:54.201)
Yeah, that's right. How we feeling about this one, boss?

Dinkleberg (20:57.571)
And Jesus is like, let's get out of here.

The Gatekeeper (21:00.183)
Yeah, well, I left the but he turned and rebuke them and they went to another village. So and there's a lot more in the New Testament about John, obviously, but then we're going to we're going to look at two more. We're going look at acts. Says, but Peter and John answered them. This is Acts chapter four, verse 19. Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, you must judge, for we cannot speak of what we have seen and heard. And when they heard.

Dinkleberg (21:06.093)
Mm-hmm.

The Gatekeeper (21:29.761)
or when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding no way to punish them because of the people. For all were praising God for what had happened. So we got Peter and John do an early evangelism in Jerusalem. And then this is Acts 8 verse 14. Now, when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given to the laying on of the apostles hands, he offered them money saying, give me this power also so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit. So John is actually, I forgot that John was there for that story. think a lot of people are familiar with Peter rebuking Simon the mage, right? And as we've seen this Simon character is actually becomes like an antagonist.

Dinkleberg (22:14.073)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dinkleberg (22:22.637)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (22:29.773)
in apocryphal literature. This is the same Simon that Peter tells the dog to go rebuke. Yes, so Simon makes multiple appearances in the apocryphal literature.

Dinkleberg (22:32.473)
Mm-hmm.

Dinkleberg (22:37.698)
Right.

Dinkleberg (22:43.951)
And what's interesting to me is that Peter and John are kind of, still side by side here. They're still doing ministry together.

The Gatekeeper (22:51.595)
Yeah, that's also a very good note. So we see this character of John. You know, he's one of the more known ones, but kind of a fiery guy, very passionate, clearly smart. Right? The keys. Some people will some scholars will say there's no way that John actually wrote these things because he was just a stupid fisherman. I'm like, OK, well, rude. Second, I think it's clear that he was educated. He paid attention in Hebrew school.

Dinkleberg (22:52.815)
Mm-hmm.

Dinkleberg (23:21.679)
Mm-hmm.

The Gatekeeper (23:22.585)
Speaking of Hebrew school, do know I'm taking Hebrew this semester?

Dinkleberg (23:27.051)
fun. Okay. Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (23:29.261)
Fun is the word.

Dinkleberg (23:31.344)
I only ever took modern Hebrew, which as I look back, I'm like, huh, that was an interesting move, John. That's my undergraduate. I took three semesters of it and then I lived in Israel for six months. you know, yeah, I got a little bit, I got a little bit down. Yeah. I'm not mad. I'm not mad. I was having a good time in undergrad. You know, I was 19. That's not the dumbest decision I made that year. I'll say that, you know, so it's okay.

The Gatekeeper (23:43.329)
That sounds like you used it. That is an interesting move now that you're older now. Yeah, right.

The Gatekeeper (23:56.474)
That's right. No, I hear you. So anyway, John's Hebrew was probably way better than mine.

Dinkleberg (24:01.327)
Mm-hmm.

Dinkleberg (24:06.841)
Hebrew's fun, dude. Hebrew, cause like when you learn Latin and Greek, you're like, man, it's like studying English's great, great grandfather. And then you study Hebrew and you're like, why is this from right to left? What is this alien language? Yeah, it's so different. But.

The Gatekeeper (24:16.451)
Mm-hmm.

The Gatekeeper (24:22.201)
I know, I know. it's it is. I wrote I wrote Isaiah in Hebrew on the board today. And one of my guys goes, that's not Greek. It's like, no, it is not. So we have some biblical evidence for John's martyrdom. Wait a second. I thought tradition want halt test. Look, I'm just being

Dinkleberg (24:31.727)
Mm-hmm.

Dinkleberg (24:35.711)
You

Yeah, it's wild.

Dinkleberg (24:46.607)
Hold, hold, hold the phone, bro. You've been saying that people who weren't martyred were martyred, people that were martyred weren't martyred. How'd he die? Was he crucified upside down? If he was, I'm gonna lose it. All right, I'm listening.

The Gatekeeper (25:02.903)
Now, look, listen, listen. This is a Mark 10.

Dinkleberg (25:08.995)
Was he boiled?

The Gatekeeper (25:10.325)
And that's not in the Bible. Mark 10. James and John, the sons of Zebedee, verse 35, came up to him and said to him, teacher, we want for you to do for us whatever we ask of you. And he said to them, what do you want me to do for you? And they said to him, first off, what a way to approach Jesus. That's bold. That's a bold move, Cotton. Let's see how it plays out for him.

Dinkleberg (25:25.327)
Mm-hmm.

Dinkleberg (25:37.677)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (25:39.982)
Verse 37, and they said to him, grant us to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left in your glory. Jesus said to them, you do not know what you're asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized? So for the listener, John, what are they asking for to say, can I sit at your right and left hand?

Dinkleberg (26:06.607)
Aren't they asking for a position in glory in heaven? Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (26:10.263)
Yes, yes, not necessarily no, not see there not even in heaven. Yeah, because they're like any minute now he's just going to smite them Romans and I'm going to be right there with him. Yeah.

Dinkleberg (26:18.799)
Oh, in his- in his kingly reign. Yes. Yes.

Dinkleberg (26:27.971)
secondhand man. That's right. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna one up what you said earlier. I think this might be one of Jesus's coldest lines in the gospels is, you willing to drink the cup? Like that is, that to me is so like cold. Like, are you willing to go where I'm gonna go to sit even close to my throne? Like, I think that's so, that's so good.

The Gatekeeper (26:50.359)
You know, I haven't, I've been very well behaved and I haven't referenced the chosen in many episodes. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna, that's right. I'm gonna allot myself a chosen. This scene is so good in the chosen because you, cause you kind of see that they're, starting to move towards Jerusalem. And so Jesus is starting to like really stress and feel the weight. And then you have a,

Dinkleberg (26:56.734)
dude, you're free to. Thomas isn't here. You're good, man.

Dinkleberg (27:04.771)
Is it?

Dinkleberg (27:10.425)
Mm-hmm.

Dinkleberg (27:15.631)
Mm-hmm.

The Gatekeeper (27:19.117)
James and John's mom telling them, you guys need to make sure that you're securing a spot for yourselves. And they're like debating how they're gonna approach him. And like the group's getting ready to leave and then they come up and like pull Jesus aside and ask him this as Jesus himself is starting to feel the weight of what is going to come. And Jesus is so exasperated. And yeah, and he rebukes them and then he like turns to all of them and he's like,

Dinkleberg (27:44.759)
interesting.

The Gatekeeper (27:48.622)
He basically says, like, none of you get it. None of you get it. So and then they answer, can you drink the cup that I drink? And they say, we are able. And Jesus said to them, the cup that I drink you will drink. And with the baptism with which I am baptized, you will be baptized. But to sit at my right hand or my left is not mine to grant. But it is for those for whom it has been prepared. So that's our scriptural evidence.

Dinkleberg (27:50.959)
Mmm, yeah, yeah.

Dinkleberg (28:06.274)
Right.

Dinkleberg (28:14.571)
so good. Yeah.

scriptural evidence.

The Gatekeeper (28:19.161)
That's a scriptual evidence is what it is that and we see James drinks that cup pretty early on right?

Dinkleberg (28:28.707)
He, you know, bottoms up for James. Yeah, he wastes no time.

The Gatekeeper (28:31.117)
bottoms Yes, but

This point of contention over this interpretation of what is this cup, what is this baptism? Is it just suffering for the sake of the kingdom, like intense suffering? What is it? Because no early tradition of John's martyrdom emerges.

Dinkleberg (28:45.261)
Right. Mm-hmm.

Dinkleberg (28:56.936)
Interesting, okay.

The Gatekeeper (28:57.579)
Yes. so Sean McDowell, fate of the apostles, which we're pulling heavily from, he says this on page 183. By the end of the second century, church fathers began trying to compensate for the lack of a martyrdom tradition for John. How could John, one of the closest disciples of Jesus, who was told he would drink the cup of Christ, have not faced martyrdom?

Dinkleberg (29:03.598)
Mm-hmm.

The Gatekeeper (29:20.577)
So we have Tertullian in his prescription against heresies, which is early third century, late second, early third. He says this, chapter 36, since, moreover, you are close upon Italy, you have Rome, from which there comes even into our own hands the very authority of apostles themselves. How happy its church on which apostles poured forth all their doctrine along with their blood.

where Peter enters a passion like his Lord's, where Paul wins a crown and a death like John the Baptist's, where the Apostle John, here you go, here you go, John, was first plunged, unhurt, into boiling oil and thence remitted to his island exile.

Dinkleberg (29:57.68)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dinkleberg (30:09.807)
And that's the tradition right there. That's the story.

The Gatekeeper (30:10.585)
Yeah, pretty much. So did it come from Turtullian making it up? I don't think Turtullians want to make things up. But did Turtullian here?

Dinkleberg (30:24.271)
except for that montonism stuff. But yeah, it's likely he was saying what he'd heard, right?

The Gatekeeper (30:30.955)
Yes. Yes. But we also have to remember the Gnostics were going wild writing fan fiction. Now not as much, not as much here. But Acts of John, which is late second, early third, is Gnostic writing right around Tertullian's time, might have even gotten a copy on it, a copy of it. That has a story of John being poisoned but surviving.

Dinkleberg (30:41.239)
Right, yeah.

Dinkleberg (31:01.003)
Interesting, okay. So even in the documented Gnostic fan fiction, that's not the story that happens. But there is a similarity in that he's attempted to be martyred, but he survives. Okay, okay.

The Gatekeeper (31:02.937)
Mm-hmm.

The Gatekeeper (31:14.691)
Correct. Yes, that's very good. So then you get to Augustine, which is like early fifth century, right? So we're talking 200 plus years later. He writes in his Trichate 124 that the legend of John's burial ground is special. And then he compares John to Peter and Paul. He's saying John didn't get martyrdom, essentially is what he says.

Dinkleberg (31:21.711)
Mm-hmm.

The Gatekeeper (31:42.084)
but he got something else special. like his grave is a special place. So as you can see, mean, if Augustine himself was not really informed on a tradition of John, it really does. I mean, nothing stuck. Even this boiling. Tertullian gave us the boiling, and I don't even think the other fathers didn't take that at face value.

Dinkleberg (32:12.047)
Sure. Do we see other fathers referencing John aside from Tertullian, who were like his contemporaries?

The Gatekeeper (32:22.185)
I didn't find anything like that. I'm sure there's something but I didn't find it.

Dinkleberg (32:24.407)
Okay, okay. That is really interesting. And Augustine is, he's going to be trained in basically everything the Catholic church has to say about everything at the time. So if there's no, and you're saying Augustine did not have, you're saying Augustine didn't reference the boiling, but did presume that he was not martyred. Is that right? Okay, okay.

The Gatekeeper (32:48.535)
Yes. Well, technically, yeah, I would say no. I would say the Augustan piece says no. I did read it because I was going to say there's another thing. Clement of Alexandria, once again, early, time, same time as Tertullian. So 198 to 203 is roughly when he wrote Stramata. He does not include John on that list of the surviving apostles, or not surviving.

which you note, not martyred, which he has Matthew, Thomas, Philip, and Levi, which we have referenced that list before in this series. So.

Dinkleberg (33:19.726)
interesting.

Dinkleberg (33:25.539)
Okay.

The Gatekeeper (33:28.599)
That leads us to think, okay, maybe something did happen to him and it was just unclear what. Well, there's a guy named Philip of Seaday and we have him who is much later, but he's quoting Papias. So I believe he's like fifth century, I can't read, fifth or sixth century, but he's quoting Papias who was like super early, but we lost the original.

Papias, right? He basically quotes him and says, Papias says in his second book that John the theologian and James, his brother were killed by Jews.

Dinkleberg (34:10.103)
Okay. Okay.

The Gatekeeper (34:11.051)
So there's this story that John was basically in his old age waylaid by a group of Jews and just like beat to death. Now I do want to take a quick moment. We got a message from somebody on Facebook, which if you guys message us, I think we do respond. I kind of cover Facebook, and I try to look at Spotify, and John covers Instagram. So we got you. One of the guys, yeah, that's right.

Dinkleberg (34:28.003)
We always respond.

Dinkleberg (34:33.955)
Yeah, they got people sending us reels on Instagram. We're just, we're having a good time. Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (34:39.193)
One of our guys messaged me and asked how we knew about pronunciation. I was like, wow, that's a really good question. I never really considered it. But I think there's three ways that we know. One, absolute guesswork. Just nailing it. Guesswork. Number two, we have studied Greek a little bit. And so we kind of know how it's supposed to be pronounced reading the original Greek names. And then three, from our church history classes at school.

Dinkleberg (35:01.007)
Mm-hmm.

The Gatekeeper (35:09.001)
and just listening to how other professors and other academics say the phrases and the names, I think we go along with that. So what's super interesting is my church history professor pronounces Clement Clemens.

Dinkleberg (35:25.155)
What?

The Gatekeeper (35:26.177)
Yeah, because that's how it is in the Greek.

There's no T, Clemens. So Philip of Cede, I actually didn't know how to pronounce this. And I looked it up and I looked up the Greek and it's Philippos ha Cedeites. Because I was like, is is it Philip of side? But we've like England, we've Englishized it, right? So that we take off Cedeites and it's just Cede. Cedeites sounds, yeah.

Dinkleberg (35:31.183)
interesting. Okay.

Dinkleberg (35:39.822)
Mm-hmm.

Dinkleberg (35:47.449)
Okay, yeah.

Dinkleberg (35:53.209)
course.

Dinkleberg (35:56.75)
Right. Well, because the funky thing about Greek is that because of their grammar structure, the last few letters of each noun is prone to changing based upon what that word is doing in the sentence. Like if it's a subject or a direct object and such. So, yeah, a lot of those words get heavily Englishized over years and years of translation and shifting into

The Gatekeeper (36:03.801)
.

The Gatekeeper (36:13.208)
Yeah.

Dinkleberg (36:25.451)
one language or another, so.

The Gatekeeper (36:26.689)
Yeah, but it is kind of cool to like. Philip Haas Haas today tastes. That's a pretty good title, yes.

Dinkleberg (36:34.543)
Yeah. One of the, so I, do you remember, do you remember how Christian challenge our old campus ministry would sometimes let students like do the message for the weekly worship service? I did, I did a message one time.

The Gatekeeper (36:49.836)
Yeah.

Dinkleberg (36:53.871)
And I was probably 20 and I'm not going to be like, shouldn't have done it. was such a dumb thing. I probably was a little arrogance about it. I was very excited about doing it. I got a lot of feedback from the people who were actually working there. And the one bit of feedback that I remember distinctly was by a dude named, I think it was named was Jeff Mashaw. Do you remember Jeff? And he was like, he was like, John, here's the thing. Augustine.

The Gatekeeper (37:17.473)
I sure do.

Dinkleberg (37:23.255)
is in Florida. Augustine wrote Confessions. And I really got irritated when I first heard it. But then I was like, well, I'm never going to make that mistake again. And I was like, gosh dang it. He would know. He would probably know. I get that. Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (37:36.547)
Jeff's a biblical languages guy.

Yeah, no, dude, pronunciation is whatever you want it to be. Like I said, Dr. Chun says Clemens, just straight up drops the T. Like he's better, he's better than the T. I'm not bothered by such English vernacular.

Dinkleberg (37:44.225)
It's very arbitrary for the most part. Yeah.

Dinkleberg (37:54.842)
Well dude, my dad grew up near a small town. I'm gonna spell it for you and I want you to tell me how you think it's pronounced, okay? R-O-A-N-O-K-E.

The Gatekeeper (38:06.701)
Roanoke.

Dinkleberg (38:08.429)
Run Oaks.

The Gatekeeper (38:10.391)
Nope. No, it's not. It's like the old vine, like the...

Dinkleberg (38:11.407)
It's run oaks If you go there no one's gonna be like boy golly I'm gonna grab I'm gonna grab something from Roanoke. Nope. You're going to run oaks. That's Louisiana

The Gatekeeper (38:19.593)
I know. All our European listeners, all our European and everyone else outside of America listening is just like justified in their disposition towards our use of English. Yes. So the conclusion for John, I debated, think what we'll do, because we have like 20 something minutes left, is we'll get into Matthias.

Dinkleberg (38:33.071)
100%. All right, anyways.

The Gatekeeper (38:46.679)
And then we'll read, because we like reading the original sources, because that's like when the real fun starts, right? I think we'll read some of acts of Andrew and Matthias. And we're not going to read any of the Gnostic literature talking about John. So I'm just going to hit you with a conclusion. He probably was not martyred, which is good.

That's a main that maintains tradition. I'm out here. I'm out here maintaining tradition for once. And he ministered he ministered for a long time and as tradition claims, many of the first patristic era guys were taught by him.

Dinkleberg (39:17.657)
True, yeah? Okay. All right, yeah. Not just.

Dinkleberg (39:31.277)
Which checks out, because that's like the legacy we get from like Polycarp and Clement and lots of dudes are gonna name drop John, who are gonna kind of cross into the second century, right? Okay, that makes sense. That makes sense.

The Gatekeeper (39:37.026)
Yes.

The Gatekeeper (39:41.634)
Yes. Yes. Yeah, there's this old tradition. Last thing I'll say about John. Don't ask me where the source is, because I don't remember. There's this old tradition of they would bring John into church, like on a stretcher elevated, and he would just like bless the congregations like this little old frail man and just say like, love each other little children, love each other. that I do that hits hard, doesn't it?

Dinkleberg (40:06.723)
That actually, that slaps, I love that.

The Gatekeeper (40:11.484)
Ugh.

Dinkleberg (40:11.823)
I... I mean like...

An actual living disciple of our Lord Jesus. I mean, like I, I get why Catholics have such a fond love for like the relics, like, yeah, this is a, this was the, this was the cup that Jesus drank from during the Lord's supper or, you know, this was the whip that was used to strike him or something like that. Like, I just, can't imagine not being just like,

absolutely overcome with emotion to see like this old frail man who walked with Jesus and just being like, man, this is a

The Gatekeeper (40:50.551)
Yeah, telling you to love each other. You're not mad about the carpet choices anymore, right? yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's right, Miss Nancy. I'll go to Hobby Lobby with you. That's, Yeah, we're doing this together. So that's, yeah, Skittle Mathias. OK, you were already, I'm glad you knew. You were like, wasn't Mathias the one that came along after? Yes. Let's read it.

Dinkleberg (40:52.589)
yeah. no, 0%. you do what you want with the foyer, nancy. i don't care anymore.

That's right, that's right, I'll bring my gift cards.

Yeah. All right. Let's go on to Maddie.

Dinkleberg (41:17.697)
I know stuff. Yeah. Thank you,

The Gatekeeper (41:18.917)
You do. I'm proud. I'm proud of you. This is Acts 1 verse 23. they put forward to Joseph called Bersabbas, who was also called Justus. Who's this justice? I don't know. don't know who's this. And Mathias. And they prayed and said, you, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.

Dinkleberg (41:32.589)
Let's use this.

The Gatekeeper (41:48.366)
and they cast lots for them and the lot fell on Matthias and he was numbered with the 11 apostles. Pretty popular Bible story. I don't love that they cast lots.

Dinkleberg (41:53.647)
Hmm, okay.

Dinkleberg (42:01.709)
Yeah, is probably a dumb- this is the last time the casting of Lots is done. It like documented, right?

The Gatekeeper (42:11.405)
You mean like within the New Testament? Yes, that I'm aware of. Yeah.

Dinkleberg (42:13.581)
Yes, yes, yes, yes. Because, okay, I'll tell you another thing that I've heard about the reputation of Matthias. You can tell me if it's wrong or not. The understanding that I've heard is that this whole casting of lots, we have to figure out the new 12th apostle because Judas did his thing, was actually false because the real replacement and the final apostle, I should say, was Paul. But

these dudes taking this into their own hands. Like, Mathias was like, technically an apostle, but not really. That's kind of the view that I've heard. What do you think about that? What have you read?

The Gatekeeper (42:53.977)
I mean, think tradition regards him as an apostle. So he would have, you're making me think through my notes here. Who is it that one of the guys claims, I say one of the guys, like Eusebius or something, or Clement, claims that he was one of the 70 originally sent out. Yes.

Dinkleberg (43:00.151)
Okay, okay.

Dinkleberg (43:20.655)
all interesting okay i think i've heard that before yeah so he was like not inner circle but he was like uh... he was a he was an associate people knew him

The Gatekeeper (43:23.265)
Yes, so

The Gatekeeper (43:29.079)
Right. He like was the equivalent. He was the equivalent of the guy that was in charge of like safety team in church, you know, like pastor knows who he is, is grateful for him. Yeah. So he's yes, he was already kind of in a circle. It wasn't just some random guy that they were like, well, who's going to who's going to replace Judas now that he did his thing?

Dinkleberg (43:35.663)
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Guy walking around with a 22 every week. Yeah. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Dinkleberg (43:53.485)
I'll just go with Matthias

The Gatekeeper (43:55.148)
Yeah, so and then the casting of lots, though, that's super interesting. And it just shows that even if that wasn't the wisest way they did it, it was recorded and the Lord used it. So there you go. You see B.S. in pretty early on in ecclesial last ecclesiastical history is one chapter 12 says Mathias, also who was numbered with the apostles in the place of Judas and the one who was honored by being made a candidate with them.

Dinkleberg (44:04.739)
Fair, fair fair, okay, yeah.

The Gatekeeper (44:23.609)
are likewise said to have been deemed worthy of the same calling with the 70. Oh, there you go. Yeah. Yes. They say that Thaddeus also was one of them concerning whom I shall presently relate an account, which has come down to us. And upon examination, you will find that our Savior had more than 70 disciples, according to the testimony of Paul, who says that after his resurrection from the dead, he first appeared to Cephas, Peter, then to the 12. And after them,

Dinkleberg (44:30.923)
yeah, that was really easy. Okay.

The Gatekeeper (44:52.407)
to above 500 brethren at once, of whom some had fallen asleep, but the majority were still living at the time he wrote." So seeing the resurrection was also another qualification to replace Judah. Yeah, to replace in the apostleship. yes. So before we read this story, how are we doing on time? Doing great on time. You're going to love this story. The Gnostics, man.

Dinkleberg (45:10.319)
Okay.

Dinkleberg (45:18.607)
doing great on time. Can't wait. I love them.

The Gatekeeper (45:22.425)
So Clement of Alexandria has, he quotes Matthias teaching importance of fighting against flesh. As we see, know, Christians, not just Gnostics, were very into asceticism or the avoidance of any sort of pleasure. Hippolytus of Rome claims that Matthias gave secret teachings from the Lord.

Dinkleberg (45:38.959)
Mm-hmm.

The Gatekeeper (45:52.142)
to Basilides and Isidore. He doesn't mention the context of the discourses, but twice mentions that Matthias was the source of the secret teachings of Jesus.

Dinkleberg (46:06.255)
Hey, Mathias, good stuff, man. Okay. Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (46:08.985)
It's all Gnostic. It's all Gnostic. That's 279 on Fate of the Apostles from McDowell, by the way. OK.

Dinkleberg (46:16.367)
See, I feel like if you're a gnostic and if you're trying to plant all these little seeds of fan fiction, you kind of want to speak into the unspoken, right? Like you want to be like, there's not a lot that's documented that Mathias said. Well, you know the reason why. It's because Mathias said some things that the establishment didn't quite love. And then you get into all the, yeah.

The Gatekeeper (46:40.737)
Yes. Well, and there could be good or bad reasons for that, because the guy that none of the Gospels talks about, you can then go ahead and slap on whatever you want him to say. So Gospel of Matthias is pseudepigraphal, but the fact that it exists, it reveals an interest in him in the first two century of the church, more so than some of the other apostles, right?

Dinkleberg (46:45.433)
Sure, sure, yeah.

Dinkleberg (46:54.134)
Exactly. Yeah.

Dinkleberg (47:09.679)
That's really interesting. Okay.

The Gatekeeper (47:10.329)
Because like Little James, dude, remember, you, if listeners, if you listen back, Little James, we got like nothing. Yeah, we got nothing on that guy. Right. Then there was some, some like Spanish Catholic bishop, like 600 years later was like, I found his bones. I found his bones. It's where my church is. I found his bones, guys.

Dinkleberg (47:15.321)
James Lester. Nothing in the Bible, nothing after the fact.

Dinkleberg (47:28.359)
You

Yeah, yeah, no, they're, these are all, man, lucky guy. We found these great bones. man. Yeah. That's super. So, so the church, or at least sub-sex of the church for a couple hundred years, we're like, yo, Mathias is our guy.

The Gatekeeper (47:36.153)
Right

The Gatekeeper (47:47.482)
Yes, here's a fun one. So in the book of Resurrection of Jesus Christ, which is a Coptic text attributed to Bartholomew, are we following? Matthias is referred to as the rich man who left everything to follow Jesus.

Dinkleberg (47:48.696)
Okay.

Dinkleberg (48:05.327)
Wow, okay, all right.

The Gatekeeper (48:06.445)
But this could also be a conflation with Levi slash Matthew. So there's some early, just like with our boy Philip last time, there's some confusion between Matthias and Matthew in tradition. But yes, so there's a second, there's a couple books written early on. There's Gospel of Matthias, Traditions of Matthias, and then

Dinkleberg (48:14.511)
Yeah.

Dinkleberg (48:22.319)
Mm-hmm.

The Gatekeeper (48:35.629)
There is the Acts of Andrew and Matthias, which is what we are going to read from.

The Gatekeeper (48:46.275)
here we go. I've got it up in the city of the man eaters.

Dinkleberg (48:52.719)
been there.

The Gatekeeper (48:53.657)
Okay, yeah, in Assassin's Creed. Phoenix Harrison, nice. About that time, all the apostles had come together to the same place and shared among themselves the countries, casting lots in order that each might go away into the part that had fallen to him. By lot, then it fell to Matthias to set out to the country of the man eaters. And the men of that city used neither to eat bread nor drink wine, but they ate the flesh of men and drink their blood.

Dinkleberg (48:55.385)
Phoenix, Arizona.

The Gatekeeper (49:24.063)
Every man therefore who came into their city was laid hold of and digging they thrust out his eyes and gave him a drug to drink prepared by sorcery and magic and from drinking the drug his heart was altered and his mind deranged.

Dinkleberg (49:37.666)
gosh.

The Gatekeeper (49:39.171)
That's crazy. This is co-

Dinkleberg (49:40.855)
Yeah, so this is where he got his calling to do mission work.

The Gatekeeper (49:44.267)
Yes, and by casting lots,

Dinkleberg (49:47.215)
Sometimes the lots have you and sometimes they don't.

The Gatekeeper (49:50.746)
Sometimes they send you here. So Matthias then having to come into the gate of their city, the men of that city laid hold of him and thrust out his eyes. And after putting them out, they made him drink the drug of their magical deception and led him away to the prison and put beside him grass to eat and he ate it not. For when he had partaken of their drug, his heart was not altered, nor his mind deranged. But he kept praying to God, weeping and saying, Lord Jesus Christ.

Dinkleberg (50:15.737)
wrong.

The Gatekeeper (50:20.291)
for whose sake we have forsaken all things and have followed you, knowing that you are the helper of all who hope in you. Attend them and behold what they have done to Matthias, your servant, how they made me near to the brutes for you are he who knows all things. If therefore you have ordained that the wicked men in this city should eat me up, I will not by any means flee from your dispensation. That's so good. Last sentence.

Dinkleberg (50:45.303)
I like it. Yeah, yeah.

The Gatekeeper (50:47.999)
Afford to me then, O Lord, the light of mine eyes, that at least I may behold what the wicked men in this city have in hand for me. Do not forsake me, O my Lord Jesus Christ, and do not give me up to this bitter death.

Dinkleberg (51:00.943)
Hmm.

The Gatekeeper (51:02.923)
So keep in mind, I forgot to tell you guys the date. This is late fourth or early fifth century. So yeah. This is the Acts of Andrew and Mathias.

Dinkleberg (51:09.835)
interesting okay this is the acts of andrew

Dinkleberg (51:17.537)
Okay, okay, alright.

The Gatekeeper (51:19.865)
Let's keep reading, see what happens. While Matthias was thus praying in the prison, a light shone and there came forth out of the light a voice saying, Beloved Matthias, receive your sight. And immediately he received his sight. And again there came forth a voice saying, Be of good courage, our Matthias, and be not dismayed, for I shall not by any means forsake you, for I shall deliver you from all danger, and not only you, but also your brethren who are with you. For I am with you everywhere and at all times.

Dinkleberg (51:21.657)
Yeah

The Gatekeeper (51:49.678)
But remain here 27 days for the edification of many souls. And after that, I shall send forth Andrew to you. And he shall lead you forth out of this prison, and not only you, but also all who hear. Having said this, the Savior said again to Matthias, Peace be to you, our Matthias, and went into heaven. Then Matthias, having beheld him, said to the Lord, Let your grace abide with me, O my Lord Jesus. And then,

Dinkleberg (52:14.607)
Hmm.

The Gatekeeper (52:17.145)
We won't read the rest of it. If you're curious, can just Google acts of Andrew and Mathias and you can read the whole story. But he sits in prison and he sings and the executioners come to bring him off to eat. they he has like a ticket in his hand and they like read it and then they they don't take him out right then and there. And they say, we'll take you in three days.

Long story short, Andrew comes and they all escape and it finishes with this and Andrew turning around to the Lord not knowing that it was the Lord said to him, Tell me, man, and show me the skill of your steering for I have never seen any man so steering in the sea as I now see you for 16 years I've sailed the sea and behold, this is the 17th and I have not seen such skill for truly the boat is just as if on land show me then young man your skill and the Jesus.

says to him, we also have often sailed the sea and been in danger. But since you are a disciple of him called Jesus, the sea has recognized you that you are righteous and has become calm and has not lifted its waves against the boat.

Dinkleberg (53:26.703)
Hmm.

The Gatekeeper (53:30.283)
So this is just par for the course, your standard Gnostic literatures.

Dinkleberg (53:37.455)
But, but, is this re- I mean, it's Gnostic because the Gnostics probably wrote it. But I mean, this is just a good old, this is a good old wholesome story, you know?

The Gatekeeper (53:48.312)
Yes, I mean, there's yes, there's in some of these and I can't remember me gonna remember who was Jackson talking about the research. You're right, bro. I can't remember which source it was. but a couple of these are like really docetic. Like Jesus doesn't do anything physical in them. So fleshly things are talked as if they're evil.

Dinkleberg (54:05.241)
Yeah, yeah.

Dinkleberg (54:14.787)
Cuz Docetic is like, you know, that's Jesus the spirit man. He's not a real, yeah, ghost Jesus. He's not a human person. Yeah, I mean, and like, you know, the Gnostic stuff sometimes has, you know, Gnostics believed in like the evil God and Matter Sucks and all that stuff. This just sounds like you said, it just sounds like weird fan fiction that is probably not very historical, but it's always very fantastical. And God's the hero.

The Gatekeeper (54:17.973)
It's Ghost Jesus. Yeah.

Yes.

Dinkleberg (54:42.799)
And Mathias, he's still blind, but you know, it doesn't sound too bad. This is a good story.

The Gatekeeper (54:50.145)
Yeah, I agree with you. I agree with you. I guess. Well, we just have no way of knowing. It's it's Sean McDowell labels his martyrdom as plausible as not.

Dinkleberg (54:51.831)
Yeah. So what do we think really happens to our boy?

Okay. Okay.

Dinkleberg (55:04.845)
as plausible as, okay. So kind of could go either way. Could go either way. Okay.

The Gatekeeper (55:07.161)
as plus it could go either way. So some some traditions

Dinkleberg (55:12.367)
Do we know where he was? we like, do know where he like migrated to and where he did his mission work or?

The Gatekeeper (55:18.979)
Well, that's also up for discussion because the Ethiopians came, he claimed he went to Ethiopia. But then we have Georgia and Scythia on the list, which is the complete opposite direction. And then there's also Judea and Damascus. So the traditions are all over the place. And we have to remember that these early church guys had they they venerated martyrdom.

Dinkleberg (55:21.391)
interesting.

Dinkleberg (55:30.127)
interesting, yeah.

Uh-huh.

Dinkleberg (55:40.879)
Mm-hmm.

The Gatekeeper (55:46.347)
So they had a reasons to make up stories of martyrdom and they venerated the apostles to an unhealthy level.

Dinkleberg (55:56.09)
Well, and also every region with an established traditional church wanted apostles who visited their place and who potentially were martyred or buried there because it gave them more significance in the bigger picture.

The Gatekeeper (56:11.863)
Yes. Well, yeah, and you have to understand why, right? It's because this this idea of a rule of faith was so important to them. They didn't they didn't have this very Protestant understanding that we have, where it's like, I just have the Bible, which there's something very precious about that and simple. You know, we mentioned the sweet Baptist ladies. They don't care what anybody after John says.

Dinkleberg (56:20.909)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dinkleberg (56:30.66)
Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (56:41.145)
They really don't. They're just like, don't know. It's not the

Dinkleberg (56:43.011)
They don't they don't care if James the lesser's bones are under your church. They'd probably be fine if they weren't there. Probably prefer it. Exactly.

The Gatekeeper (56:49.975)
Yeah, they might even prefer it. Right. Right. So I think we have to just keep that in mind as we explore these sources that these guys had very strong incentives for making up apostolic claims. Because if I can say, yes, if I can say Apostle So-and-so showed up and planted this church and he told us how to do things, then

Dinkleberg (57:04.109)
Yeah. It's heritage. Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (57:15.733)
your little backwoods church where you're just reading the scriptures, you, I have something more than you in that regard.

Dinkleberg (57:22.937)
Exactly, exactly.

The Gatekeeper (57:24.631)
Also, I want to be a bishop for the sea of insert whatever, right? So.

Dinkleberg (57:27.343)
Right, right. Yeah, that's why I, one of our, one of my favorite episodes that we did a few months, maybe like six, nine months ago, gosh, it a long time ago, but it was the episode we did on the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. Cause like they have such, like we had apostles here. We had the Ark of the Covenant is here.

The queen of Sheba who hung out with Solomon was here. She actually had a son with Solomon and he was raised here and to brought Judaism here. Like it wasn't just enough to be like, yeah, man, we're just Christians. We just filled with Holy spirit. love God. They're like, no, we are a part of this story. Like this story has significance here. Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (57:54.604)
Right.

The Gatekeeper (58:09.081)
And yes, and we never fell to Islam and we weren't colonized, i.e. we're about as true as you can get.

Dinkleberg (58:14.239)
Mm? Mm-hmm.

Dinkleberg (58:19.023)
And even the Copts, like they don't have the benefit of not falling to Islam, but the Copts do have that rich apostolic heritage of being like, the people who learned under Jesus came here and brought that message as early as they could have. So we're not just some fringe subset. Like we've been doing this for a long time. Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (58:44.001)
Right. So, yeah, it's all very interesting, but there we go. There's two more, two more apostles down.

Dinkleberg (58:50.927)
Boom, boom and boom. All right, who we doing? Who we doing next week, big dog? I do one?

The Gatekeeper (58:57.785)
You can if you want. Well, we'll talk about it offline. I'm just saying, Paul is being saved for last. I have really tried to pace out the big dogs in between. Paul's last people, so better hang in there. Reminder, I was going to say, yeah, reminder.

Dinkleberg (58:59.971)
Hmm. You were a little hesitant there. We'll talk about this offline. OK, that's fine.

Dinkleberg (59:12.164)
Yeah.

Dinkleberg (59:16.373)
as he should be. think that's totally fair. Also,

The Gatekeeper (59:22.465)
Vote on what series you want next. There's three options you have post fall of Rome Which is kind of like end of patristic era, right and we have like the rise of the Catholic Church we have Crusades you can pick from or The the great awakenings in America. So those are all three very different time periods and the viewers get to choose

Dinkleberg (59:26.671)
Mm-hmm.

Dinkleberg (59:40.687)
That's right.

Dinkleberg (59:46.8)
That's right. That's right. Now, before we close out, we actually have a haiku to read. As you guys know, we love to do haikus for all of our, anyone who clicks that link at the bottom of our show notes to buy us a coffee. And we've started a new system where if you give us a one-time pledge, which we love, we're to write you a haiku as we have. And, but if you become a regular supporter, which, oh my gosh, I don't even know what to do with that. Then we're going to write you a whole sonnet. We're going to write you a whole sonnet, which...

The Gatekeeper (01:00:11.489)
I know what you're gonna do. Yeah, you're gonna write a sonnet.

Dinkleberg (01:00:15.331)
I haven't written a sonnet since college, but I'm gonna put my heart and soul into it. So Sam, just know a sonnet is coming. It's not today, because my heart and soul is little dry right now, but just keep it up. But I do have a haiku for a very special listener. In fact, I have been pretty close with this listener, you could say. She's my wife.

Annie, she's also been on this show before but never with you Taylor, right? Man, that'd be really fun. That'd be really fun. But anyways, yeah, so I have a haiku for her. Also, it's in Spanish. So if you don't speak Spanish, well, sucks to suck. Sorry. bro, can I just say that we might have listeners? No, I'm going to say it. I don't care. We might have listeners who are like, man, I was hoping ZZ Top.

The Gatekeeper (01:00:46.915)
No, no, I've only had the boys.

The Gatekeeper (01:00:58.009)
Well, you better learn for the halftime show.

The Gatekeeper (01:01:03.342)
Nope.

Dinkleberg (01:01:11.971)
was gonna go on or Taylor Swift or Led Zeppelin or something. Bad Bunny is so much fun to listen to. He is very fun. Yeah, he's an American. He's part of the territories, bro. Yeah, so here's a little taste of Spanish as you practice to get ready for the halftime show when the Jacksonville Jaguars go face to face with whoever the Jacksonville Jaguars is gonna beat. Anyways, oley.

The Gatekeeper (01:01:21.849)
He's Puerto- He's Puerto-Rican. That's right. He is. He's part of the territories.

Dinkleberg (01:01:42.297)
Mi amor, tu eres mi pulmones cuando respiro.

That's it.

The Gatekeeper (01:01:51.329)
You are my A.

What's the translation?

Dinkleberg (01:01:56.623)
I have to translate it? I thought it was like a little gift. It's like, it should be like a little treasure for people who speak Spanish. No, it's my love. You are my lungs when I breathe.

The Gatekeeper (01:01:59.191)
No. Okay, okay, that's for her. Okay.

Dinkleberg (01:02:10.831)
That's good. I'm not writing that for anybody. Just for my wife. right. Okay. Well, we love you guys. you. Yep. Yeah. We'll see you guys soon. And yeah, thanks for listening. We appreciate you guys more and more every day. All right. Love you guys.

The Gatekeeper (01:02:15.553)
Well, we'll see you guys on the instagrams and the facebooks and the spotifies

The Gatekeeper (01:02:28.196)
Ta ta!