95. The Adventures of the Apostles: Did Doubting Thomas Go to India?

For a long-time follower of Jesus, Thomas really got the short stick when it came to nicknames. But that's okay. He redeemed his doubting ways and was named with the rest of the disciples even after Jesus ascended to heaven. 

But here's a question-- what did he do after that? Did he go to Persia? Or perhaps, even farther???

Join us as we explore the fascinating legacy of the Apostle Thomas and his missionary travels. We will also share many of the stories attributed to him throughout church history, and boy, some of these are really doozies. 

Buy us a coffee: https://buymeacoffee.com/chumphistory

Chapters

• 2:53 What's Our Next Series??
• 5:52 A Haiku for John's Wife
• 8:50 John Says Clambering Instead of Clamoring
• 9:16 Let's get to Thomas

Transcript

Dinkleberg (00:00.482)
Hey everybody, welcome to Church History for Chumps, my name is John Simon and I'm here with my good friend Thomas Duell!

The Gatekeeper (00:06.486)
Nope, different. Next try again.

Dinkleberg (00:09.73)
Where's... Where's Thomas?

The Gatekeeper (00:11.642)
Thomas is no longer with us.

Dinkleberg (00:16.44)
died? man, yeah. You know, LM, one of the dudes in our Spotify comments, he was like, why is Thomas the one that misses? That made me feel kind of bad. I was like, does he kind of like, man, why can't John and Taylor take a week off?

The Gatekeeper (00:17.646)
Tonight, he's gone tonight.

The Gatekeeper (00:33.536)
I know, LM's like, okay, all right. Are we the filler episodes?

Dinkleberg (00:36.238)
was like, dang dude, I don't know.

Absolutely not no no When Thomas isn't around people are just like I'll wait till the plot starts developing again. I'm gonna tune out. I'm gonna tune out a little bit. Yeah, it's not it's not a it's not advancing the lore unless Thomas is here Which is sad because it's probably true. We're not gonna start like a new series without him

The Gatekeeper (00:47.212)
Right, like I'll watch. I'll watch, but I'm gonna do dishes or crochet or...

The Gatekeeper (00:59.61)
I know.

The Gatekeeper (01:05.572)
Thomas is traveling, dear listeners, near and far, abroad, some might say. Okay, so since we're already talking about Tommy, that picture he sent today was insane. He's on the, listeners, he's on the beach and like looks over and some random guy is listening to the podcast.

Dinkleberg (01:09.516)
Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. To...

Dinkleberg (01:20.91)
picture you're talking about.

Dinkleberg (01:29.71)
right, right. Yeah, yeah, it's kind of crazy. mean, I... I mean, I was surprised by that. I mean, I'm always surprised. I... Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (01:38.688)
I know. Listeners, keep it up. We're growing. I guess. I keep it up, guys.

Dinkleberg (01:45.007)
You guys should just tell your friends. I don't know, we wanna do more fun stuff, but I always get caught up in dumb ideas. I had an idea of send the most obnoxious text recommending this show to somebody and then screenshot it and send it to us. But then I was like, we're get two people to do that. And also, nobody wants to do that.

The Gatekeeper (01:48.75)
Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (02:06.713)
right.

Jackson would do it out of pure loyalty, but not because he wants to. Shout out Jackson. So, but you guys would have just heard the giveaway that we're doing coming up. participate in that. The post will be up by the time you hear this. participate in that. LM, I hope you win. Cause I know you were commenting on Spotify. Where's the link for the book? Don't buy it yet. Cause you have a chance to win my friend. All of you. Yeah. All of you have a chance to win. So.

Dinkleberg (02:13.487)
You'd be like, I have to. Shout out Jackson. Yeah.

That's right. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dinkleberg (02:32.822)
Yeah, you might want a free one. Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (02:38.904)
We're excited.

Dinkleberg (02:39.178)
So that's very exciting. Also excited because we're starting a new series probably in the next few weeks and we need you guys to let us know what you want because we are currently between the top three series topics. One of which is has my gosh long been demanded, which is the Crusades. We also have the first and second great awakenings and then the rise of the Catholic Church after the fall of Rome. So

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So yeah, let us know. We've gotten, think we've gotten a couple votes for the Crusades and maybe one for the first and second grade awakening. So.

The Gatekeeper (03:21.838)
Yeah, no one's really interested in post fall of Rome church, which honestly, that one's going to be really hard to research. So.

Dinkleberg (03:27.276)
Yeah, I don't know. What?

Dinkleberg (03:35.148)
Is it because there's not that much to, is there not a lot?

The Gatekeeper (03:38.209)
No, there's a ton, but that's like when the East and West really start splitting. So I think we'd have to keep track of it. And then we're looking at it, like honestly, if we did that series, we'd be going up all the way to the Phileoquy, I think. So yeah, know. St. Bernard of Clairvaux in that time period, though, I think, isn't he?

Dinkleberg (03:44.354)
That's like my favorite thing. Yeah.

Dinkleberg (03:54.969)
Yeah, pretty much. The great schism. Yeah.

Dinkleberg (04:03.53)
He is, but he's also in the Crusades. So yeah, there we go.

The Gatekeeper (04:05.838)
Well, there you go. I think we might touch filioqui regardless.

Dinkleberg (04:11.63)
I have two shout outs. Actually, I have three. Don't worry listener. It's not gonna take that long. One shout out to Denmark. One of our boys said, say shout out to Denmark. So we're doing it. Shout out Denmark. You know who stinks? Norway, Sweden. I was gonna say Finland, but I have a good friend in Finland. Jacob, I don't think you're listening, but if you are, I love you, bro. But yeah, shout out to Denmark. And thank you Denmark for listening. We appreciate you guys.

The Gatekeeper (04:23.467)
Yeah

The Gatekeeper (04:40.48)
all of Denmark.

Dinkleberg (04:42.594)
Who's Denmark?

The Gatekeeper (04:43.724)
No, I said all of

Dinkleberg (04:46.174)
All of Denmark, yeah, I'm sure they're doing great things. I bet their insurance is so expensive, but so potent. Bro, I'm just, I think I could get a free like heart transplant out there. And I think that's pretty sweet. Also, our friends from Singapore clarified that I think all chewing gum is illegal. It's not just spitting chewing gum on the sidewalk. So I guess I like, I mean, I,

The Gatekeeper (04:52.794)
Okay

The Gatekeeper (05:00.503)
Mmm. Alright.

The Gatekeeper (05:10.626)
Shout out Singapore, keeping it clean.

Dinkleberg (05:14.446)
can't say I've chewed gum in the past three months, but I still don't know how I feel about that freedom being taken from me. I really am.

The Gatekeeper (05:19.746)
You're so American. The second, the second somebody says you can't do something, you're like, wait a sec, I love gum.

Dinkleberg (05:27.022)
What do you mean? I love guns and I love gum. The right to chew gum. Second Amendment. That's right. Yeah. And then my wife, even though I read a haiku that I read, that I wrote for her, she was very upset that I did not read the haiku that she sent to me with the donation.

The Gatekeeper (05:33.024)
Yeah. And shoot while I do it.

Dinkleberg (05:54.863)
Which is also very funny because my wife and I have the same money. It's just going out of hers and then back into mine. It's, it's, it does nothing. I did, I did. But she, she has encouraged me to read it. So John, my favorite person in the whole wide world. Where is my haiku?

The Gatekeeper (05:59.757)
Right, this, you paid for this donation. Mm-hmm, that's a nice gesture from her.

Dinkleberg (06:21.635)
Are you happy, sweetheart?

The Gatekeeper (06:24.068)
Good. I will say this. Our offer for a whole sonnet stands. And Sam, if you're listening, this is for monthly supporters. You get a whole sonnet. Sam, I'm going to level with you, Sam. I wanted to chat GPT your sonnet. I got to, I used it. Yeah. I got to, I got some really good lines and John Simon said, absolutely not. I'm going to put my heart and soul into this sonnet. And.

Dinkleberg (06:31.267)
Yes.

Dinkleberg (06:35.151)
Mm-hmm.

Dinkleberg (06:41.613)
I was revolted.

Dinkleberg (06:47.533)
I was repulsed. No.

No, we don't chat cheapy-T our episodes.

The Gatekeeper (06:54.4)
And my wife, Brandy, heard what I was doing and also said, she was like, how dare you? So.

Dinkleberg (06:57.711)
She just like ripped you new one. Yeah. She said you're giving them a tea moose on it, and I think that's an apt analogy. Apt. So.

The Gatekeeper (07:08.218)
Yeah.

Shalom, shalom, Sam. Your sonnet is coming. Well, guys, as you can probably tell from the title, we're going to continue our series, The Fate of the Apostles. I think we're going to knock out a hole three tonight. Isn't that right, JS?

Dinkleberg (07:13.421)
Yeah, it's definitely coming.

Dinkleberg (07:25.695)
Absolutely not. That was the plan and then it stopped being the plan and now we're doing one.

The Gatekeeper (07:29.752)
Are we only? You are actually the worst. Okay, listeners, if you haven't been checking, if you haven't been keeping up, I got in trouble for doing a whole episode on just Philip. And I gave you the last three who there's barely any text about. And you're like, okay, well look, Bartholomew. Is it Bartholomew? Okay.

Dinkleberg (07:40.419)
Look. Look.

Dinkleberg (07:48.003)
Look.

Dinkleberg (07:53.41)
It's not Bartholomew. It's, here's the thing, man. I just missed Thomas so much that I wanted to do an entire episode dedicated to his namesake. I just felt like, I felt like, like Thomas, if you're listening and I know you don't listen to the episodes that you're not in, we miss you, man. We miss you and we hope that you come back and we're sorry for whatever we did, man. I know you keep saying you're traveling, but we know there's something else.

The Gatekeeper (08:10.2)
or he listens to it on like 4X.

The Gatekeeper (08:16.11)
Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (08:23.598)
He went to get a pack of smokes with his Christian liberty. What the heck? All right, who are we talking about, sir, that we're only covering one sir, sir?

Dinkleberg (08:23.959)
Anyways, yeah, heard that before. I actually haven't, I really haven't.

Dinkleberg (08:35.765)
We're t- Hold, hold, hold the phone. Hold the phone. I got- Cause here's the thing. You've been doing all these apostles adventures and you know, the people have been clambering. Actually, literally no one has said this. But the people in my mind have been clambering. Let's get- Let's see what John- Let's see what John has to do about this. So, let's get- Let's get- Let's get cooking. So I got a little cold open. Cause you guys know I love a good cold open. I'll keep my cold opens hot out the oven.

The Gatekeeper (08:53.408)
There's a lot of them, apparently.

Dinkleberg (09:05.465)
Here we go. Members of the chump nation or students of church history, you're likely aware of two sometimes opposing, always distinct cultural groups that emerge in the early church, the Latins and the Greeks. They each have their own language, their own history, their own associated people and ethnic groups. Like, God, just let me keep finishing and go.

The Gatekeeper (09:28.218)
and that's just their own theologians.

Dinkleberg (09:34.628)
When we consider the early church fathers, we think of the Latin fathers like Tertullian, Ambrose, Augustine, Augustine. We think of the Greek fathers, Athanasius, Origen, the Cappadocians. Over time, these cultural, political, social differences between these two groups will inch by inch, mile by mile, kilometer by kilometer, drive them apart. And in modern times, now we largely recognize

The Gatekeeper (09:44.227)
You

Dinkleberg (10:03.299)
The Western Church as including the Roman Catholics and the Protestants, woo, rural Protestants, and the Eastern Church as including the Eastern Orthodox. But here's something that may snap your mind in two, or should I say three. Because the early church did not just include the Latins and the Greeks, and we should know this, the early church included the Copts and Egypts like the Desert Fathers. There were the Ethiopian Christians like our co-host, Taylor Treadway.

But today we're talking about Thomas. And to talk about Thomas, you have to talk about the forgotten little brother of global Christianity. A different language, different culture, different history, both past, present, and future. The Syriacs.

and we've got a whole lot of mystery to explore today boys and gals. So, we're talking about Thomas. Thomas is our launching pad to talk about the Syriac Church or maybe vice versa. But let's start with the good old Plan Jam King James Bible. Taylor, what do we know about Thomas?

The Gatekeeper (11:13.738)
Well, we call him Doubtin' T.

Dinkleberg (11:16.441)
That's right. We do the old DT. That's right. The dirty T as we call them Yeah, you know what his name means

The Gatekeeper (11:21.091)
Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (11:25.818)
Thomas? No, I was gonna I don't have anything.

Dinkleberg (11:30.969)
Yeah, it's funky. It's not an easy like, you know, dissection as far as Greek goes. His name is Didymus, which means twin, which is a very frustrating name to have because as far as the Bible goes, we don't know who his twin was or even if he really had a twin, but that's what his name was. His name was Didymus, which means twin. He's one of the 12 disciples. As Taylor mentioned, he's

No, so in the synoptic gospels in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, he's only ever mentioned, the only time he has a significant place in a story is in the gospel of John, which is twice. One is the very famous one where he's, you know, I don't believe it guys, I don't think Jesus really rose from the dead. And then, you know, Jesus has to show him the holes in his hands and all of a sudden.

Thomas freaks out. But that's a very big moment as far as all the disciples go. There's another story in the Gospel of John where the disciples are thrown a big fuss about going back to the town of Bethany because there's a lot of trouble brewing over there and they think that it's close enough to Jerusalem where if they go they might get in trouble because they're not a big fan of Jesus over there. And Thomas actually stands up and that's why it's a bummer.

that he was called Doubting Thomas for one thing he said, because another thing he said was, let us go, that we may die with him. That was Thomas speaking to the disciples. So, you know, he didn't get brave Thomas after that, but of course he's Doubting Thomas. So that's just, that's why you don't give people nicknames about bad things they do, guys. That's the moral for today's episode.

The Gatekeeper (13:15.354)
you

Dinkleberg (13:18.016)
in the of Acts, he's really only listed one time, I think it was the first or second chapter, and he's just listed in a list as far as listing through the disciples. It doesn't really say anything about where he goes, what he does, et cetera. And so now...

The Gatekeeper (13:37.295)
We have two narrative instances from him that only come from John. OK. And the first, just double checking, the first one is him advocating, let's go die with Jesus. And then the second one is, I don't really think he's back. The duality of the dichotomy of it all.

Dinkleberg (13:43.096)
Correct. Yes. Yeah.

Dinkleberg (13:50.69)
Let's go die. Yep.

Dinkleberg (13:55.919)
Yeah, duality of man. Yeah, very much so. The dichotomy of the twin, honestly. Yeah. I could write a book. I'm about to write a book, bro. Are you kidding me? All right. So yeah, that's it. That's all we get from Thomas in the Bible. We get a couple of stories. We get a brief mention. Of course, he's always mentioned amongst the 12 disciples, but we don't really get that much more. So now we have to look to historians.

The Gatekeeper (14:03.482)
Oh-ho-ho-ho-ho!

Dinkleberg (14:25.676)
as far as what they say about this man Thomas.

The Gatekeeper (14:27.716)
Yeah, what's the tradition claim for him?

Dinkleberg (14:31.796)
Well, there's two. One is fun and the other one is likely. But, but there's also, I do, I do. But the good news is, the good news is, if you, if you take the fun view and you add a little bit of whimsy and a little bit of optimism, you can incorporate that and the likely one and both of them can fit. And I think

The Gatekeeper (14:37.879)
Mm-hmm. Okay, well, you know how we do things. Yeah.

Dinkleberg (15:00.546)
You guys know me, I'm Johnny Whimsy over here. That's kind of how we operate. Yeah, yeah, where the whims are at, So when we look at Eusebius, who of course is kind of the, you know, the industry standard, he's like the Mac computers of early church historians. He's gonna say, well, he was commissioned to go to Parthian, which is like modern day Iran.

The Gatekeeper (15:02.906)
Where the whimsy at?

Dinkleberg (15:30.314)
It's basically like a descendant of the Persian Empire. He went east. He went east beyond where we were in Palestine. So when we look at other historians, or even we look at theologians who are referencing back, see Eusebius again, historian. He's like, dude went to Parthian. We're going to see Origen, who's going to say, yeah, he went to Parthian. I think Gregory of Nazianzus.

will all affirm, yes, he went to Parthian and there's really no mention of his martyrdom. It was just, this is where he went and the Lord just kind of took care of him from there. So imagine you're like in this room.

The Gatekeeper (16:13.89)
trying to... Where's Parthian? Where's Parthian?

Dinkleberg (16:18.457)
Parthian is it's the name of this like region. It's like where Iran is now Yeah, it's I a n because I kept doing I o n but yeah interesting place So imagine you're like in this room and you're just asking these guys like hey you guys know what happened to Thomas and one guy's like yeah, man, he went over here. went over here He went over here and then there's this guy in the corner just wearing like a long trench coat Just leaning with like a cigarette in his mouth

The Gatekeeper (16:31.928)
Okay, okay

Dinkleberg (16:48.599)
And he's like, Hey kid, I know what happened to Thomas. He didn't just go to some lame Persian knockoff. He went to India and then takes a long drag and you're just like, crap. I'm, I'm, I'm interested now. And then he just disappears. Yeah. It's just an empty, it's an empty trench coat just lying on the floor. Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (16:53.306)
You

The Gatekeeper (17:03.13)
And then he's... And then he's gone.

You

The Gatekeeper (17:10.826)
Yeah. What's super interesting though is like just because origin said it or you see B is set it like doesn't mean it's in a lot of ways they could just be echoing the tradition claim. But yeah.

Dinkleberg (17:25.441)
Exactly. Yeah. And that's what's interesting is that if we apply the same standard of what the big significant voices in church history are saying, all these early dudes are going to say he went to Parthian. But as soon as this hits the streets, these pamphlets, you know, go crazy on the market, everyone's going to shift.

The Gatekeeper (17:49.134)
Mm-hmm.

Dinkleberg (17:52.132)
their perspective. And now you've got all these really significant dudes saying something very different. So this is the acts of Thomas.

The Gatekeeper (17:55.989)
Do we? Well, do we have anything that within the window of living memory? Like, does like Hippolytus or Clement or anything mention? Interesting.

Dinkleberg (18:04.335)
not that I saw I don't think so yeah feel free to dig while I while I spiel but I did not see anything like that I only saw really two thoughts

The Gatekeeper (18:14.338)
Yeah. Is Axe of Thomas one of the more well-known Gnostic works?

Dinkleberg (18:21.113)
So here's the thing. It's... Maybe this is because I'm painfully nuanced. This... So this... think calling it Gnostic is little bit of an oversimplification. the Acts of Thomas, I've got this whole spiel here. So the major Syriac witnesses date it to 936 CE, which is super late.

The Gatekeeper (18:35.672)
Okay.

Dinkleberg (18:48.463)
The earliest Syriac witnesses will date it to the 5th or 6th century. The major Greek witnesses date it to the 11th century. Augustine is also going to write about it and say that the Manichaeans are using it. So that's a pretty big Gnostic red flag. Yeah, Byzantine authors are going to talk about it in the 9th century.

Like, I think historically, as it's been studied and unfolded, it's actually believed to have been written in the mid-third century. And it's-

The Gatekeeper (19:24.9)
That's what I'm seeing here. I'm seeing, I think the reason that it had stuck out is because Sean McDowell notes, Axe of Thomas is the only ancient apocryphal act that has survived in its entirety, although not in original form. That's what it is.

Dinkleberg (19:27.8)
Yeah.

Dinkleberg (19:39.48)
Yeah, you can read the whole thing and it's massive. It is significant. so we basically, yeah, we know that it was written in the third century. I didn't know that it was the only apocryphal act of the apostles that survived. That's super cool. But it is attributed to the Christians in Odessa.

The Gatekeeper (19:44.237)
interesting.

Dinkleberg (20:06.473)
in the early to mid-third century. And now here's why I did that long spiel on the cold open about the significance of Syriac Christians in this time, because here's what I think is important, and this is like the cultural context behind what makes this work so interesting to me. So when you think of like the northern parts of the early church, you tend to think Antioch.

And there's a reason for that. Antioch is the northernmost major sea of the early church. Remember S-E-E, because we always love to say that. But Antioch was super Hellenized. It became, I think, very significant in terms of commerce and transport and things like that. So even though it was in Roman Syria, it was culturally not as Syrian as other areas were.

So Antioch is gonna be, and Antioch in the Bible is called one of the first churches established outside of Jerusalem. So a lot of writers are going to attribute Antioch with being the church that kind of allows Christianity to leave the bubble of Jewish Semitic contexts. So that's very significant. What's interesting though is that Edessa is this smaller city.

also in Roman Syria that is going to maintain this Semitic flavor. And they don't speak Greek and they don't speak Latin, they speak Syriac, which is like a linguistic relative of Aramaic. And culturally, they're not Greek, they're not Roman, but they are Semitic. And what's interesting, and when you read from the Syriacs to this day,

They will say, huh, that's interesting. Do you guys know somebody who, I don't know, belonged to a Semitic culture and spoke Aramaic? is it Jesus maybe? Like, so that's their whole thing is they're like, well, we've actually maintained the culture that is closest to the one that Christ actually lived in while affirming, you know, Christian truths and things like that. And so,

Dinkleberg (22:28.483)
When we look at the cultural differences between like, and we've done this before on the pod, when you look at the Latin theologians, Tertullian, the lawyer, they want to look at theology like a Roman. They want the law, they want the logic. And then the Greek theologians, they're all the philosophers. They want the themes and the deeper meanings. But the Syriacs are going to have an even deeper...

The Gatekeeper (22:52.964)
Mm-hmm.

Dinkleberg (22:53.111)
like kind of more mysterious way of understanding the truth. And so they're going to have a very different cultural way of looking at things. And so getting back to the acts of Paul, or I'm sorry, the acts of Thomas, that's why it's just a super freaking weird, like kind of strange. And so to answer your question, yes, it's super Gnostic. Like it's very Gnostic. And I don't think it's Gnostic because

these were Christians who were like celebrating Gnosticism. I think it's because like they were just geographically sandwiched between Hellenized peoples and Mesopotamians. so much like, you know, your everyday Baptist church might sing America the Beautiful on 4th of July services, like there was a little bit of syncretism kind of bleeding in and they, they were a little Gnostic, but

The Gatekeeper (23:34.362)
Mm-hmm.

The Gatekeeper (23:48.959)
I get you're you're more you're so gracious with like everybody. That's such a good point. You're not like dismissing the Christianity of people that are more like patriotic and service while some other Christians are like horrified at that. Right. And the same. Yeah.

Dinkleberg (23:49.484)
Moderns

Dinkleberg (23:54.872)
Yeah!

Dinkleberg (24:02.775)
Yeah, I mean like, you can't understand it, then you're already kinda hurting yourself to do that. You're like cutting off your nose to spite your face, right?

The Gatekeeper (24:11.148)
So I realized after listening back through the last episode, I realized something about myself. I realized I held a position that I don't know if it's entirely true or not. I have to be careful. I have just assumed that every pseudepigraphal piece is Gnostic.

Dinkleberg (24:17.678)
Mm-hmm.

Dinkleberg (24:37.007)
Mm-hmm.

The Gatekeeper (24:38.054)
Because because we have found such insane things in them. I've just assumed that they're all written by like crazy people who maybe had the best intentions Right like dude. I even referenced that if the guy who wrote You know whichever the adventures of Peter comma Six the dog on Simon or whatever like I reference. I was like that guy might be in heaven listening, so I like try to be generous

Dinkleberg (24:48.845)
Hmm. Yeah.

Dinkleberg (25:06.989)
Yeah, yeah.

The Gatekeeper (25:07.534)
But I need to be careful not to assume that all of these guys had, how do you say, Ulterior motives, yes.

Dinkleberg (25:17.537)
ulterior motives. Yeah, yeah. And I do think, I mean, this is something I'd love to explore more because we know that there were Gnostics who wrote with a clear chip on their shoulder. And like when you look at the Gnostic texts that are like, yeah, Jesus, when Jesus was a baby, he was doing backflips and, you know, speaking in backwards, freaking languages. Like that stuff feels like just

The Gatekeeper (25:41.955)
Right.

Dinkleberg (25:47.232)
strange like and it feels almost intentionally misleading but the the acts of Thomas There's some weird stuff in it we can get into it for sure But I do think it comes across as like genuine. I mean it's weird to write Yeah, yeah, like it doesn't seem like intentionally harmful and like, you know when you read modern Syriacs talking about this

The Gatekeeper (25:48.933)
Yeah

The Gatekeeper (26:03.928)
This isn't Gospel of Judas. Yeah.

Dinkleberg (26:16.58)
they would say, you know, they would likely say, yeah, I mean, it's not something, it's not like, it's not canonized. It's not part of, it's not our canon, but we do recognize that it has a really big piece in our history because just like the Ethiopian church loves to point to, who is it? It's not, it's Saint Matthew as kind of being their apostolic founder. The Syriacs are gonna say,

The Gatekeeper (26:39.886)
Yeah.

Dinkleberg (26:46.284)
this was Thomas being our boy and as an extension him being the Indian Church's boy because the Indian Church and the Syriac Church are actually going to stay pretty well connected like to this day the the biggest churches and the biggest and most historic churches in India that have been founded reportedly 2000 years ago belong to the Syriac tradition

The Gatekeeper (26:53.402)
Hmm.

The Gatekeeper (27:09.538)
Right, there is, there's evidence, there's evidence of early Christians in India. So somebody got it there. This isn't, this isn't like, you know, the Mormon sending Jesus to the Native Americans. Like that was not possible, but this one, this journey is physically possible.

Dinkleberg (27:15.258)
Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. mean...

Dinkleberg (27:25.621)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Dinkleberg (27:32.332)
Right, right. And like we said, like every region in church history always wants their apostolic claim to fame. But a more, a less cynical view of that history is, well, maybe the reason the gospel was able to go so far was because they did have the weight of an apostle, like do it leading the evangelistic efforts.

The Gatekeeper (28:00.283)
Mmm.

Dinkleberg (28:00.847)
So yeah, we don't always have to be so cynical. I have to remind myself of that. anyways, I know.

The Gatekeeper (28:05.152)
I know, it's born into us, man. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry, sorry, I keep asking all these nuance. I want to hear Gospel of Thomas.

Dinkleberg (28:10.893)
No, no, no, it's all good. yeah, I'm going to read the first couple of paragraphs because I think it's hilarious. all right. At that time, this is Thomas speaking and Thomas, think kind of goes back and forth between speaking in first person and third person. So, but at the time we, the apostles were all in Jerusalem. Simon called Peter and Andrew his brother, James, the son of Zebedee and John, his brother, Philip and Bartholomew Thomas.

Matthew the tax gatherer, James of Alpheus, Simon the Canaanite, Judas of James, and we portioned out the regions of the world in order that each one of us might go into the region that fell to him and to the nation to which the Lord sent him. That by itself. No, dude, I imagine they're like spinning a globe.

The Gatekeeper (28:54.362)
Are they gonna cast lots?

The Gatekeeper (29:00.25)
This is like an IMB planning meeting.

Dinkleberg (29:04.141)
Yeah, that's exactly like it literally they're portioning out the regions of the world. They're like, all right, I'll go here. I'll go here. Like, that's so that's so funny. And so by lot, by lot. actually, they did guess lots. By lot, then India fell to Judas Thomas, also called Didymus, and he did not wish to go.

The Gatekeeper (29:06.443)
All right.

The Gatekeeper (29:21.882)
Dang it.

Dinkleberg (29:31.096)
saying that he was not able to go on account of the weakness of the flesh, and how can I, being a Hebrew man, go among the Indians to proclaim the truth? And while he was thus reasoning and speaking, the Saviour appeared to him through the night and said to him, Fear not, Thomas, go away to India and proclaim the word, for my grace shall be with you. But he did not obey, saying, Wherever you wish to send me, send me elsewhere, for to the Indians I am not going.

And he was thus speaking and growing angry. There happens to be a certain merchant come from India by name Abanus, sent from the king Gundoforos. And having received an order from him to buy a carpenter and bring him to him. And the Lord having seen him walking about in the market at noon said to him, do you wish to buy a carpenter? And he said to him, yes.

And the Lord said to him, I have a slave who is a carpenter and I wish to sell him. And it's so good, man. That's what I'm saying. And having said this, he showed him Thomas at a distance. Yeah, like right over there. You see him? Yeah. There we go. Thomas, Thomas wave, wave.

The Gatekeeper (30:32.664)
love this so much. I love this so much. This is so good.

The Gatekeeper (30:44.644)
That's my slave. You can have him.

Dinkleberg (30:49.047)
And agreed with him for three pounds of uncoined silver. And he wrote a bill of sale, saying, I, Jesus, the son of Joseph the carpenter, declare that I have sold my slave, Judas by name, to you, Abanus, a merchant of Gundapheros, the king of the Indians. And the purchase being completed, the Savior taking Judas, who also is Thomas, led him to Abanus the merchant. And Abanus, seeing him, said to him, is this your master?

And the apostle answered and said, yes, he is my Lord. And he said, I have bought you from him. And the apostle held his peace.

The Gatekeeper (31:26.682)
Dude, okay, I have one question. What was that three, what was the currency?

Dinkleberg (31:34.952)
was, p-pounds of uncoined silver. Three pounds. Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (31:38.394)
I really hope that's like a super discounted price that would make this even better If Jesus is like, yeah, I could let him go at a discount half off

Dinkleberg (31:44.527)
It'd be awful if Jesus like...

It'd be terrible if Jesus like, I don't know, like really twisted the poor guy's arm for him. He was like, oh gosh, all right. All I've got is three pounds, man. I can do, all right, 33 pounds, I'll take it. Jesus is like a hard bargainer.

The Gatekeeper (31:57.628)
that would be her.

The Gatekeeper (32:05.796)
Dude, I, there's almost no way this happened that way. But I love it.

Dinkleberg (32:14.475)
It's such a good story. It is is by far my favorite story in this whole in this whole thing. So it's great Yeah No, it's it's it's awesome. And so Thank you big dog. so yeah, then he The rest of the story is kind of these weird interactions that happen so he's gonna yeah, he'll be sold by jesus as a slave

The Gatekeeper (32:15.795)
my gosh.

The Gatekeeper (32:21.166)
Dude, that's the best one I've heard so far of everything we've read. That's so good. Excellent find, JS. Excellent find.

Dinkleberg (32:44.603)
He's gonna go and speak to the King Gandapheros. There's each of these little kind of like chapters that are kind of broken up into these little stories that happen. didn't get into all of them. One thing I found really interesting is that in the middle of this document of this writing, there is what is called the Hymn of the Pearl, which is

The Gatekeeper (33:13.016)
Hmm.

Dinkleberg (33:14.487)
very strange because so the hymn of the pearl scholars believe existed even before the acts of thomas did and they think that the authors who were most likely again from the syriac tradition kind of just like threw it in it was like i think this is when thomas is imprisoned in india and he's just speaking to the other prisoners and he just drops this

this poem, which is an analogy. And it's actually really beautiful. And this is, I think, one of the things that the Syriac Church treasures the most because this hymn has this really beautiful, but it's a very simple story, but it's basically kind of like this little, I don't want to call it a fairy tale, but it's basically a story about a young prince who has to travel to this land to retrieve a

Pearl that is currently being guarded by this like evil serpent. And the prince travels to this far off land and after he finally arrives there, I think he sees the serpent and he's kind of frightened by it. So he goes off to hide and falls asleep. And when he wakes up, he's forgotten who he was. And so he basically starts acting like the people of this town.

but it's really that he's losing sight of his princely heritage. And eventually one day it kind of like dawns on him, oh my gosh, like I am the son of a prince and I've been living like a beggar basically. And so he finally confronts the serpent and he steals the pearl and he returns back home and he's welcomed with this incredible kind of prodigal son, you know.

exaltation, this like celebration, and he's, and he's, he has all of his dirty garments taken off of him and he's given the, the, you know, the royal garb once again. And, and it's kind of seen as this analogy that as humans, we have this, yeah, this divine heritage that we have lost sight of. And so it's kind of this encouragement that

The Gatekeeper (35:33.306)
Hmm.

Dinkleberg (35:36.215)
in for us to take hold of this divine treasure that is in front of us, even though it is guarded by something deadly, we have to remember the spirit that lives within us, the heritage that we carry, and with that we can return to the God who's called us, essentially. Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (35:54.938)
remember the Imago day.

Dinkleberg (35:59.119)
Yeah, exactly No, no, no, it's all good. Hey, like I said, it's all it's context. You know what I mean? Yeah, it's context. That's all good. But yeah, it was just Yeah, let me see. I'll see if I can find a good part

The Gatekeeper (36:01.166)
I'm so bad, I have to westernize everything. Not that the doctor, you know what I mean, theologize, yeah.

The Gatekeeper (36:16.612)
There's a story. There's a there's a story I really hope you're about

Dinkleberg (36:21.914)
man, the only one I've got left is the martyrdom, so is it that?

The Gatekeeper (36:26.439)
then let's no, no. Here, let me let me chime in real quick then. So.

Dinkleberg (36:30.836)
please, it might be the one I'm thinking of, but I'm glad you're pointing it out.

The Gatekeeper (36:34.858)
So this king that he goes to work for, gets to India, okay, and the king gives him a bunch of money and puts him in charge of building a palace. So Thomas has all this money and then he takes the money and uses it to like feed the poor. He doesn't build the palace and the king is furious and is about to have him executed. Well that night, the king's brother,

Dinkleberg (36:38.53)
Yes. Mm-hmm.

Dinkleberg (36:47.596)
Okay.

Dinkleberg (36:56.12)
Okay.

The Gatekeeper (37:04.856)
named Gad. So this is Gondor, Gondiferous. How did you pronounce it? Gondiferous. So Gondiferous' brother Gad dies that night in his sleep and he gets taken by an angel and the angel shows him that Thomas, Thomas didn't build an earthly palace with this. He built a heavenly palace. It's so good. And then he returns him to life.

Dinkleberg (37:09.826)
Yeah, I had the gondopterus or something, I don't know. Yeah, yeah.

Dinkleberg (37:18.904)
Mm-hmm.

Dinkleberg (37:27.34)
Uh-huh.

Dinkleberg (37:32.334)
That's so good.

The Gatekeeper (37:34.756)
Gad wakes up and tells his brother everything. And his brother's like, all right, I guess we're Christians now. They seek the forgiveness of Thomas. They obviously don't execute him. And so that whole area then becomes Christians.

Dinkleberg (37:45.667)
Yeah.

I love that. I love that so much, Honestly, there's so much, there's so many parallels between these stories and the stories of the conversion of Ethiopia. It's so important that there is one key Christian figure who brings the good news, but the nation has to also respond. it's like both stories have the king initially be a pagan and then convert.

to kind of show that the nation was receptive to the gospel.

The Gatekeeper (38:20.216)
We have seen that over and over again in these sources. And I think there is a PhD project somewhere in there, dude, because, man, we got to have Dr. Wilhite on. Maybe that can be our question for him. Explain this. Dr. Wilhite teaches at Cal Baptist. So I got to reach out to him. That would be a great question for him.

Dinkleberg (38:24.173)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dinkleberg (38:30.061)
Yeah

Dinkleberg (38:36.847)
Is that your guy? Is he your guy?

Okay, okay. Yeah. What's his Okay, yeah. What's his what's his like specialty? Yeah, does he have one? that's a good one. Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (38:49.368)
What's his specialty? Patristics. He's a genius, dude. He's New Testament. He's a New Testament scholar. He has two PhDs, New Testament and a church history slash theology. So he's like the Patristics guy. Yeah, so I think that's a great question for him. What do you think, listeners? Get him on and ask about this trope, because we're not smart enough to answer that question.

Dinkleberg (39:03.503)
Mm-hmm.

Dinkleberg (39:16.077)
Yeah, another thing about it too is like, you know, I remember hearing about this was this would obviously be centuries later, but like when when like the Vikings were converted by the Catholics, I mean, obviously there was a mixture of, you know, a little a little sword swinging in the midst of that. But often you'd have like a tribe leader.

or kind of like a warlord, and they would be convinced of Christianity. And then they'd just be like, all right, everybody, we're Christian now. Baptisms are Monday at 9 a.m., don't be late. And that's how it worked. And I think it's funny because I still think we have that kind of gag reflex because we're like, hold on. Every person needs to make...

that choice themselves. Otherwise you're just baptizing pagans. That's a real concern. that is also, I don't know, that's a really interesting, different kind of cult. That couldn't happen now. If Donald Trump said we're a Christian nation, baptisms are at 9 a.m., that's not going anywhere. Or if it was Biden or freaking Kamala or

The Gatekeeper (40:27.002)
No, no, no, nobody in America is going to do that. In fact, they'll do the opposite if they're told to do so. This like this Western individualism that has evolved is so extreme. And I think that's why we can read these stories and kind of think, well, this is weird because we are operating with such a foreign paradigm to them.

Dinkleberg (40:35.66)
Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.

Dinkleberg (40:50.894)
Mm-hmm.

Dinkleberg (40:55.063)
Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (40:57.09)
No, this is worth exploring, I think. I think exploring this trope of leader gets converted, everyone follows, and everyone's just cool with it. Yeah, that's good. Well.

Dinkleberg (40:59.771)
I like it. Yeah.

Dinkleberg (41:07.788)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. One other thing about the acts of Thomas. This is probably the most critical I'll get of it just because this I found super weird. Thomas? So I read one comment where someone basically said that they felt like it was a very docetic.

portrayal of Jesus, which was a word you used very well in the last episode, which just refers to the heresy of Docetism, is ghostly Jesus. He's the immaterial Jesus. And the vibes that I got reading some of the stories in this were very strange because there would be times where Jesus and Thomas were both

The Gatekeeper (41:38.714)
Woo!

Dinkleberg (41:58.863)
kind of like, like Thomas, like Jesus would speak to someone and they'd think he was Thomas speaking and then like vice versa would happen. Like Jesus would address the crowd and be like, ha ha, you thought I was Thomas. It turns out, no, I'm actually Jesus the Lord. And everyone's like, whoa, that's so, so you almost get the sense that like in this Thomas represents like the physical side of Jesus and Jesus is

kind of the ghostly divine side. Maybe that's not a fair interpretation, that's kind of what struck me. One thing that even stood out was the story that we told in the beginning, which was when Thomas was sold into slavery, Thomas's occupation is immediately labeled as being a carpenter, but in the gospels, Thomas's occupation is not named.

The Gatekeeper (42:29.028)
Hmm.

Dinkleberg (42:55.25)
Maybe tradition said that he was a carpenter later on, or kind of my suspicion is maybe calling him a carpenter was another way to kind of fuse his traits with Jesus in a weird way. So I don't know. There were some strange things I noticed.

The Gatekeeper (43:09.326)
Hmm. I think that's a good analysis. Where I'm going, just to push back because I'm a contrarian, is

Is it... is Jesus changing forms because that's what he does when Thomas doesn't believe it's him? Post-resurrection, Jesus takes different physical appearances.

Dinkleberg (43:30.958)
Mm-hmm.

Dinkleberg (43:35.694)
Sure, sure, yeah, yeah.

The Gatekeeper (43:37.45)
So that's the only thing that I'm wondering. But he does, Jesus also like signs the bill to sell him.

Dinkleberg (43:40.63)
No that's fair, that is super fair.

Dinkleberg (43:46.85)
And he saw and he signs it by his name, which is so funny. I just imagine some like.

The Gatekeeper (43:49.827)
Jesus Christ.

Dinkleberg (43:55.92)
some poor administrator like, did you take this, you know this guy's been dead for 40 years and they're like, oh crap, dude, didn't look at his ID. Like, I don't know.

The Gatekeeper (44:03.45)
I know.

The Gatekeeper (44:09.166)
Well, what's the martyrdom story?

Dinkleberg (44:12.537)
there's one more that I wanted to bring up because it reminded me a ton of one of the stories we've covered that you did with one of the Acts of the Apostles. It's just a very random story, but there's this like long, like bridal party like scene where this man and woman

The Gatekeeper (44:14.111)
Dinkleberg (44:36.131)
who have just gotten married are like in the bedroom together. And then Jesus like appears in the bedroom and he's like, you guys should definitely not sleep with each other because that you're just giving into physical desires and passions. And is that how you want to live? And then they're like, no, we don't. And then it was like everyone's celebrated because they chose to live righteously and Jesus just.

The Gatekeeper (45:04.163)
So there's some asceticism.

Dinkleberg (45:06.735)
Yeah, well this is heavy Gnosticism too dude, they're they're they're giving away all material pleasures But I just thought that just made me laugh so hard when it was like just everyone's like hooray They're not gonna consummate their marriage like and thus the first Baptists were born Yeah

The Gatekeeper (45:09.369)
Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (45:27.236)
Amen. It's so funny that people label the Puritans as these, but I think the Puritans would never have taught anything remotely similar to that.

Dinkleberg (45:39.104)
No, no, it's, it's, so funny if you think that Puritans were like the most severe form of asceticism that existed. It's like, dude, people used to stand on pillars for years at a time with like chains shackled to their necks. Yeah, to prove that they loved God and they didn't need any type of pleasure. Like people used to starve themselves to death to show how much they loved God.

The Gatekeeper (45:46.01)
Damn.

The Gatekeeper (45:50.997)
Hahaha

to prove that they could.

The Gatekeeper (46:01.005)
Yeah, there's... What's the monk that... What's the monk that lived up on the top of that pillar? Saint Simi... Yeah. And everyone's like, Saint Simian, and I just imagine Saint Simian, I need wisdom. And he like shouts down like, meh, cause he's lost his mind.

Dinkleberg (46:08.345)
Saint Simeon. Yeah, Simeon the Stylyte.

Dinkleberg (46:19.383)
No, apparently he was a he was people respected him far and wide because like apparently like like kings and stuff would like go to get he was like a Allegedly. Yeah, allegedly my favorite story of saint simian alleged or not was there were His basically his church council was worried about all the attention he was getting and they were worried that he was basically doing it out of pride And so they said look, dude

The Gatekeeper (46:25.473)
allegedly.

allegedly.

Dinkleberg (46:48.259)
You're clearly you've clearly got that dog in you bro, but we're gonna need you to step down because we think we're not we're not convinced about your motives here and he was like Perfectly fair. I I submit to you guys as my leaders and as he like started to get down They're like, never mind. You're good. You're good We just want to make sure that you would do that and then he stayed up there until he died. I think Yeah, all right anyways back to this guy

The Gatekeeper (47:07.661)
You

of it. Tell us how he dies, allegedly dies.

Dinkleberg (47:16.737)
Yeah So it's worth mentioning that the people who say that Thomas went to parthian Don't mention his martyrdom at all. So there is a good chance that if he never made it to india that he was Not martyred. He just I don't know lived a lived a nice little mesopotamian life or persian life. I should say but those who do believe he died basically he got thrown into prison he ticked off some pagans and

he was killed by a number of guards kind of running through him with spears, which is not crucifixion, but that is that there is some connection to Jesus's passion there, considering, you know, Jesus was also speared when he was dying, of course. So, yeah, not the most like, I don't know, even even in the Acts of Thomas, the way they talk about his

martyrdom is very like for how much detail they put in everything else his martyrdom is pretty matter of fact and then it just kind of closes from there so

The Gatekeeper (48:26.202)
Something to note, and we've talked about this before, talk about it again, is that just because it's written as a legend, it does not mean it doesn't contain an historical core.

Dinkleberg (48:30.735)
Mm-hmm.

Dinkleberg (48:39.193)
Mm-hmm.

Dinkleberg (48:45.383)
yeah, I'm all about that.

The Gatekeeper (48:46.746)
You know, think through, imagine with me, if you will, somebody writes a story about Lewis and the Clark Expedition. And they make it very Disney-y. So they have a fanciful little creature that follows them that's cute. And there's good thematics, know, story arcs playing out. And pretend.

Fast forward 2,000 years, we've lost almost all references to the Lewis and Clark expedition, but we have this Disney VHS that they're able to resurrect and watch. They're gonna think...

Dinkleberg (49:22.735)
Mm-hmm.

Dinkleberg (49:29.529)
Mm-hmm.

The Gatekeeper (49:32.942)
Well, maybe Lewis and Clark actually existed, but there's no way that the beaver that follows them is, you know, there's no way the beaver is real. So, yeah, I mean, I don't know. What's your verdict on him? And then I'll tell you, cause I pulled up Sean McDowell. I'll tell you what McDowell says.

Dinkleberg (49:42.487)
Right. Mm-hmm.

Dinkleberg (49:48.036)
Well,

so-

Okay, no, I love that. can't wait to hear that. So when I got like shoulder deep digging through Ethiopian history when I did that episode, gosh, like six, seven months ago, it was very clear that that whole tradition, their tradition does not hinge on the truth of their stories, but they really depend on them. And they have a lot of...

love and admiration for those stories. And like I said, so once the acts of Thomas become more mainstream, I guess, you're going to hear from Ambrose and from Jerome, who are two non-slouches that he went to India and was martyred there. And like you said, maybe that just means that the zeitgeist kind of shifted on what happens to him. I think he went to Parthian.

And as he went through Parthia, and I think he went through Odessa, which is where he had this big impactful interaction with the would-be Syriac Christians. And I do think he went to India. He was always known as the apostle to the East. The question is, how far East did he go? And like you said, there's a lot, like there are so many Christians along that territory who claim Thomas as their guy.

The Gatekeeper (51:13.242)
Mmm.

Dinkleberg (51:22.574)
So I guess I really want it to be true and I'll say for the sake of whimsy, I buy it. But what does Shawnee Boy say?

The Gatekeeper (51:27.488)
Okay. McDowell lands on more probable than not and his main reasoning is there's no other competing tradition. Yeah, he went to India. Yeah, yeah. He basically, he basically says sort of what you said. So you're in good company, sir. Well done. Now, where do you rank martyrdom?

Dinkleberg (51:38.178)
that he went both? Let's freakin' go. I love that.

Mm-hmm.

Freakin' love it, yeah.

where do I rank? like how likely? that's a good question.

The Gatekeeper (51:55.93)
Mm-hmm.

Dinkleberg (52:01.743)
30 % I think it makes I think that Everybody wants the Apostles to be martyred and even like, you know We we talked about with John John having that conversation with Jesus where Jesus is like you will have to drink my cup So everyone hears that and they're like crap. I hope this guy gets freaking martyred. What whatever

The Gatekeeper (52:23.642)
Yeah.

Dinkleberg (52:25.879)
Thomas has the same thing. Thomas says, let's go with Jesus where he needs to go and let's die with him. So I think people want him to be martyred, which is why I don't think he was martyred. Hot take.

The Gatekeeper (52:39.544)
Well, Ewan McDowell disagree. ranked, you said 30%, which would have been more likely not. He says more plausible than not. So there's no percentage attached to it. And it's sort of the same reasoning, lack of competing tradition.

Dinkleberg (52:48.867)
Mm-hmm, yeah.

Okay, okay, yeah.

Dinkleberg (52:59.705)
Sure, sure, sure. Okay, okay. Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (53:01.277)
So, but this is just another example of one of the ones we don't know. We don't have a lot to go on. And the early church had to write stuff to get them martyred for their own reasons. And as we've seen, that has persisted all the way up to 2000s. 2000 years later, people are still echoing it. So.

Dinkleberg (53:07.459)
Mm-hmm.

Dinkleberg (53:14.159)
Mmm.

Dinkleberg (53:23.543)
Right. For sure. And I mean even just logistically, he was in a completely pagan territory with a very, very young church that he was establishing. The likelihood of getting martyred is it's not zero. So I could see it. I could see it.

The Gatekeeper (53:38.486)
It's not zero. You know that some scholars think Matthew and Thomas were twins because of the word didymus?

Dinkleberg (53:42.861)
Alright.

Dinkleberg (53:48.227)
That, I didn't know that, that's interesting. Hmm.

The Gatekeeper (53:51.995)
Some scholars, I wouldn't even say scholars, there's some tradition arguments that he's the twin of Jesus.

Dinkleberg (54:03.694)
Whoa, man, that would make the acts of Thomas make more sense.

The Gatekeeper (54:06.734)
That would make this make a lot.

So I don't know. I don't have any research on it. I'm just reading quickly from McDowell. So as we close.

Dinkleberg (54:12.25)
That would... Ooh man, I don't hate that.

Dinkleberg (54:19.374)
And also wouldn't most... Wouldn't Catholics hate that argument too? Because it would imply that Mary had... Also wouldn't that mean he was also like God's son?

The Gatekeeper (54:25.476)
Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (54:31.672)
Dude, I don't know, man. We can't get into there. That's very odd. Yeah, as we close, remember, you guys have a chance to win the book that we've been using for this whole series. The Fate of the Apostles by Sean McDowell will buy and ship you a copy. you enter. That's right. Look, if I even had the slightest

Dinkleberg (54:33.198)
We can't get into this. That's what addendums are for. All right, as we close.

Dinkleberg (54:45.296)
That's right.

Dinkleberg (54:52.08)
That's right. Signed by Taylor with fresh Cheeto dust.

The Gatekeeper (55:00.248)
relationship with Sean McDowell. I care about the viewers enough, I would drive down to Biola and have him sign it. But I would just look like a crazy guy asking, you know, you like ask the academic assistant, like, is Dr. McDowell in? Can you sign my book, please? Exactly. Yeah. So you guys can enter to win by sharing.

Dinkleberg (55:07.37)
Mm. No, bro.

Dinkleberg (55:18.394)
He's on sabbatical. Yeah.

The Gatekeeper (55:25.252)
the post on Facebook by liking us on Instagram or Facebook, sharing it on Instagram, and you can tag your friends and each friend you tag in this post counts as an entry. So you can rack up a ton of entries.

Dinkleberg (55:37.136)
That's right.

You can. How obnoxious do you want to be? It's up to you. And don't forget to vote on our new series between the Crusades, the rise of the Catholic Church slash fall of Rome, and the first and second great awakenings. Three great options, if I do say so myself.

The Gatekeeper (55:44.117)
It's up to you.

The Gatekeeper (55:49.338)
you

The Gatekeeper (55:57.87)
Yeah, you can you can vote by essentially just getting ahold of us in any of the ways. Message

Dinkleberg (56:05.2)
True, yeah if you know us personally you can just talk to us.

The Gatekeeper (56:08.248)
Yeah, message message on Facebook, the church history for chumps DM John on Instagram. Comment on Spotify. We're receiving votes.

Dinkleberg (56:11.322)
Mm-hmm.

Dinkleberg (56:14.96)
Yep. S- Send a letter to P.O. Box 31313. is that? Where would that be?

The Gatekeeper (56:24.568)
You should send it with a geo tracker and see what happens.

31313. Golly. So anyway, I got to give John. John took an episode from what was my series, but you know, I did all the research last time we recorded, so it was his turn and I think he did a great job. So kudos.

Dinkleberg (56:45.04)
Mm-hmm.

Dinkleberg (56:48.432)
Thanks man, it was a lot of fun. Hey, the P.O. Box 31313 is in Tampa Bay, Florida and it's the office of medical marijuana use. Well, all right. Thank you guys. Thank you for listening as always and we love you bunches and we'll see you next time.

The Gatekeeper (56:56.409)
Okay.

The Gatekeeper (57:00.218)
Well, send it there.

The Gatekeeper (57:09.285)
Bye bye.