Church History for Chumps
We're not your grandfather's church history podcast. But we'd also really appreciate it if he still listened.
Saints, heretics, councils...and the occasional crazy stuff. We have fun.
IG: @churchhistory4chumps
Church History for Chumps
96. The Adventures of the Apostles: Why You Should Know Thaddeus and Bartholomew
Thomas is BACK, BABY. It's about dang time.
But also, we're wrapping up our series on the Apostles with two of the minor-est boys in the bunch, Thaddeus and Bartholomew.
While the biblical narrative doesn't offer us much on these two lads, history has no shortage of legends about their lives. Where did they go? Were they martyred or did they die of natural causes?
Also, let's listen to more chump-inspired poetry for our kind and generous listeners. Don't forget to vote on our new series coming up, and participate in our giveaway on social media!
Buy us a coffee: https://buymeacoffee.com/chumphistory
Dinkleberg (00:00.811)
Hey everybody, welcome to Church History for Chumps. My name is John Simon and I'm here with my two good pals, Taylor, have you heard of that new update for Hearthstone, Treadway? And Thomas, I don't know, I just play, you know, construction worker simulator while I have a mouthful of zins. Do well.
The Gatekeeper (00:21.003)
That's, yep, that's me.
Caesar Of The West (00:24.256)
If you fill your mouth with zinc and close your eyes, can imagine you're on any work site in the world. It's pretty cool.
Dinkleberg (00:30.869)
Right before, yeah, pretty soon you'll be in a hospital simulation.
Caesar Of The West (00:34.126)
Yeah
The Gatekeeper (00:34.967)
Yeah, it's great. dude, we're glad to have you back.
Dinkleberg (00:37.547)
man.
Caesar Of The West (00:37.688)
Dude, feels good to be back with you guys.
Dinkleberg (00:41.215)
my gosh, the rumors were starting to pop off a little bit, Thomas. People were saying there was drama behind the scenes. People were saying Thomas doesn't like the apostles. Thomas doesn't believe in the apostles.
The Gatekeeper (00:56.041)
I just, I knew Dad went out for his can of grizzly and was gonna come back.
Caesar Of The West (00:56.249)
Dang. Dang.
Caesar Of The West (01:01.55)
Yeah. Thank you for believing in me, son.
Dinkleberg (01:02.433)
I was worried. I was real worried. Well, Thomas, I feel like you owe an update to the Chump Nation because they haven't heard your voice in many moons.
The Gatekeeper (01:07.319)
You're welcome, Dad. Dude!
Caesar Of The West (01:08.942)
Ahem.
The Gatekeeper (01:11.575)
Yeah, where you been?
Caesar Of The West (01:13.88)
Where I've been, yeah. I basically was gone for, over the course of three weeks I was traveling for some church work on our presbytery. And then we went to a family reunion in Estes Park, Colorado for my grandma's 90th birthday. Shout out Marcia. Yep. I'd love to say she's a big listener of the pod, but I don't think she's a big listener of any pods.
The Gatekeeper (01:17.217)
Like one moon.
Dinkleberg (01:35.265)
Shout out, Marcia.
The Gatekeeper (01:37.069)
Gam-gam.
Caesar Of The West (01:43.79)
But she's cool. Marcia is amazing. And we celebrated her birthday. 9-0. 90. Yep. She's lived in the same house for like 60 plus years, and it's cool.
Dinkleberg (01:47.265)
And how old did she just turn?
Big 9-0, dude.
So that means your kids have a living great grandmother. What a blessing, dude. Dang, man, that's awesome. That's super cool.
Caesar Of The West (02:00.526)
They've got two living great-grandmothers actually. And then we had our church's family camp on Mount Lemmon after that, which to our fellow Tucsonans we know is the big mountain that overlooks our city. And then I'm back. Back in the saddle again.
Dinkleberg (02:19.841)
Yeah.
Dinkleberg (02:23.275)
back like he never left. Love to see it man, love to see it. Well we missed you. Well actually I missed you a lot. I missed you a
The Gatekeeper (02:24.638)
Yeah.
Caesar Of The West (02:27.79)
Yeah, what have you guys been doing? You guys just been grinding in the CH4C trenches?
The Gatekeeper (02:33.013)
Yeah, dude, we got a giveaway going. So guys, you heard at the beginning the instructions. We got a lot of people entering already. Keep it rolling, baby.
Dinkleberg (02:33.633)
Pretty much, man. I mean, we already... We do, yeah.
Dinkleberg (02:42.241)
Mm-hmm.
Caesar Of The West (02:44.554)
I've got something that we have to talk about really quick. Somebody with my last name is all of a sudden in our comments, and it's not a relative of mine.
Dinkleberg (02:44.672)
Yeah.
Yes.
Dinkleberg (02:52.907)
Dude, he's a relative, bro. I think he might've been at Gam Gam's birthday party and you just didn't know him.
The Gatekeeper (03:00.779)
Yeah, you just didn't know it.
Caesar Of The West (03:02.296)
Well, here's the thing, if your last name is Duel, you are related to me. So Mike or whatever your name was who was commenting, we're related. And as I've gotten older, I've started to see the Duel name more. When I was a kid, it was not a thing. But I have no idea. So now I'm like, did that guy find our podcast because he Googled his name? Or is there a...
Dinkleberg (03:09.365)
It was Mike.
Dinkleberg (03:25.547)
Dude, what if you're the most famous duel in the world right now because of this podcast?
The Gatekeeper (03:29.293)
Wow.
Caesar Of The West (03:30.06)
Wow. Wow. Something to think about,
The Gatekeeper (03:33.037)
Moving on up.
Dinkleberg (03:34.527)
Wow. Yeah. Do you have any, I don't know. What words do you have for a fellow do well? Do you guys have like a special handshake? Like a way to know that he's not like some fraud. He's not just Mike Dinkelberg.
Caesar Of The West (03:49.944)
Yeah man, well we're Swedish so I imagine if I told him Valkomen or Svenska pojka or something like that.
The Gatekeeper (04:00.349)
Hingadinga... Hingadinga-dergen?
Dinkleberg (04:05.108)
That's on their national crest, I believe, Taylor.
Caesar Of The West (04:08.536)
Yeah, that actually meant Christ is Lord in Sweden.
The Gatekeeper (04:09.613)
That's the Duel Family Quest. Hinga dinga dergun.
Dinkleberg (04:13.12)
It's just like a bunch of meatballs on a plate
The Gatekeeper (04:19.376)
man.
Caesar Of The West (04:20.75)
that's great. Now, I mean, yeah, glad to know there's a dwell out there who loves Christ.
Dinkleberg (04:21.502)
Wow. Well, Mike, thanks for listening, man. And,
The Gatekeeper (04:24.437)
Yeah, man, welcome.
Dinkleberg (04:28.467)
Yeah.
The Gatekeeper (04:28.567)
Guys, engage with us on socials, leave comments to anybody that's wondering. I guess if you leave a comment on Spotify, that can count as an entry. We had a, you already told them good. Yeah, we had a listener that was like, I don't do social media, so I guess I can't enter. No.
Dinkleberg (04:38.9)
You already told him. We already told him.
Dinkleberg (04:45.588)
more power to him. I should give him several entries. I almost said entrees. I should give him several entries for not being on social media. No. Yeah. I think I'm excited. We've got some entries. I'm really excited. We also have a couple
The Gatekeeper (04:51.415)
We can give him entrees as well.
Caesar Of The West (05:00.782)
Are we giving away your book, Taylor? Like the book?
Dinkleberg (05:03.88)
Yeah, are you buying a new one or is this like the one you used for this?
The Gatekeeper (05:06.091)
No, I have digital. We're gonna buy a new one, a brand new one.
Caesar Of The West (05:10.03)
Are you gonna sign it? It's just like Sean McDowell's book, but it's signed by Taylor Treadway.
Dinkleberg (05:10.176)
Okay, wait, should we use?
Dinkleberg (05:16.17)
That's the joke! That's why it's so good! That's why we're excited! Yeah!
The Gatekeeper (05:17.759)
Yeah, it's a signed copy. You know what's crazy though? Give me like a few more years and I could get Sean McDowell's signature. I just have to at least get into the PhD program, I think.
Caesar Of The West (05:18.958)
That's amazing. Okay, I missed that part.
Dinkleberg (05:27.626)
few more years.
Caesar Of The West (05:32.066)
How long does it take to drive over to Biola and just knock on the door?
The Gatekeeper (05:34.133)
Like 40, 45 minutes. That's the thing though, dude. I'll look like a crazy person. Hi, is Dr. McDowell in?
Dinkleberg (05:41.472)
Dude, Thomas is literally making us recycle jokes from old episodes because he doesn't listen to episodes that he's not in and now we're...
Caesar Of The West (05:48.596)
that's true. That's true. My bad. All right. I'll shut up about the book.
The Gatekeeper (05:48.883)
I know, it's true.
Dinkleberg (05:53.492)
No, it's okay.
The Gatekeeper (05:53.536)
Mm-hmm. But yeah guys, got the giveaway.
Caesar Of The West (05:56.204)
This also means that you and I, John, have the same humor. Like if you and I are saying the same crap to Taylor, I didn't even hear it and apparently I'm just saying the same stuff.
Dinkleberg (06:04.144)
That's actually 100 % true. No, that's actually rock solid. Yep. man. Also, before we get into our poetry readings for today, we are still accepting votes for our new series between the Crusades, the rise of the Catholic Church post fall of Rome, which that's all one. That's not two separate ones. And
The Gatekeeper (06:07.665)
my gosh.
Dinkleberg (06:31.508)
the first and second great awakenings. Who knows, maybe by the time we finish, we'll be in the middle of the third great awakening.
The Gatekeeper (06:34.132)
Mm-hmm.
Dude, wouldn't that be great?
Caesar Of The West (06:39.704)
See, everybody wants us to do the Crusades, I bet, but they don't realize what that's gonna do to us. Like, the amount of time it's gonna take to record that.
Dinkleberg (06:39.828)
I don't know.
Dinkleberg (06:46.976)
Yeah, I also feel like there's a lot of stuff about the Crusades. There's a lot of books. I like there's a lot.
The Gatekeeper (06:51.629)
I know. Look, we're going to get, we're obviously we'll focus on the church side of the crusades is what we'll, but we'll have to tell the whole story. So yeah, that's where all the votes are leaning. So I'm telling you guys, if you want another one, you better get in and cast a vote because it's like probably 70 % crusades right now.
Dinkleberg (06:59.412)
Right.
Dinkleberg (07:13.6)
This is your patriotic duty, chump nation. We're calling you Uncle Tom. Oh no. I was gonna say Uncle Sam, but then I realized that's like a slur. all Ray, can you get that out of there? Can we, hey Ray.
Caesar Of The West (07:21.1)
Yeah, we're calling you that.
The Gatekeeper (07:22.314)
Hmmmm
Caesar Of The West (07:28.419)
You
The Gatekeeper (07:30.677)
Nope, leave it in. I'm just glad it was you that said it.
Dinkleberg (07:35.872)
I'm glad it was me that said it.
Caesar Of The West (07:35.896)
That's my dad's favorite. That's my dad's favorite part of this podcast, by the way, is when we're like, hey, Ray, can you remove that? But then like, it's still there.
Dinkleberg (07:45.505)
Dude, it's the best running joke in the show. Ray's not here in this. Unless I'm time stamping, then I'm not. All right, we do have some poetry to read. One I'm really proud of. So you guys should know, because we beat this drum pretty regularly, if you give to our Buy Me a Coffee, which the link is in our show notes, if you give a one-time gift, we will write you a haiku. We've written many haikus, and they've all just filled our hearts with joy. And I have a haiku to read for our good friend Ari.
Caesar Of The West (07:48.398)
Uhhhh...
Dinkleberg (08:15.188)
from Singapore, she donated and this might be the first international gift we've gotten, which is just the coolest. She was also like, I don't know, I'm just psyched. So Ari, you're the best and I have a haiku for you. Sing for Singapore in Malay or Tamil or English. They speak all.
boom. Mm-hmm. Yeah, they also speak Mandarin, but that was too many syllables. But I was going to write something in Malay, but I was like, I think this would actually be impossible, and there's no way I would pronounce it correctly.
Caesar Of The West (08:45.742)
Whoa. Ours.
The Gatekeeper (08:51.477)
That's like half the haiku right there.
Caesar Of The West (08:58.606)
What if, uh, what if like, you're just like, your chat bot was just like, would you like me to write another haiku now? No, I know you better than that. That was from the heart. That was good.
Dinkleberg (09:06.464)
Ha
The Gatekeeper (09:07.597)
Yeah
Dinkleberg (09:11.228)
no no no actually this is why the next thing i'm about to read is so significant because are are wonderful listener sam has offered up of a regular donation which is something that we've never even heard of before i thought that the about the website was broken when i saw what came through yeah i thought it was impossible
The Gatekeeper (09:29.677)
I thought it was a myth, a legend written in the Gnostic gospels.
Caesar Of The West (09:32.91)
LEGENDARY
Dinkleberg (09:35.509)
This is what I heard of when I used to support Raze, but I never thought it was real. So here it is in the flesh, a real recurring gift. So Sam, this is for you. And again, this is just a reminder that Taylor wanted to do a chat, GPT one last week and I told him not to anyways. The giants of church history are peering from the sky, holding prayers of saints and thieves as clouds and birds go.
The Gatekeeper (09:53.23)
Mmm.
Dinkleberg (10:05.49)
See, what could I say to you, Sam, that I could put into a poem? A shin, a lamed, a mem sufit, when said aloud, shalom. See, this is how a sonnet sounds when composed by sons of men. Taylor prefers to put some crap and have AI take it for a spin. This is a poem that sweetens swell. We hope your family is doing well. Thank you, Sam.
The Gatekeeper (10:36.299)
That was good. It was from the heart. ChatGPT's sonnet had some serious bars, but...
Caesar Of The West (10:36.928)
Yay, Sam!
Dinkleberg (10:43.764)
Sure man, yeah. Sure. It's like when that 3D printer made the Mona Lisa. Hang that up in your house, huh?
Caesar Of The West (10:52.046)
So if anybody else wants to set up a recurring donation, they can have an equally beautiful sonnet.
The Gatekeeper (10:59.423)
achefully beautiful.
Dinkleberg (11:02.784)
You guys didn't sound that convincing when you said that but that's okay. No, no, no. I Know no, no, yeah, I need to gas me. I was fine. It's whatever All right. I think we hit all the main points. Uh, ready to get cooking ready to get cooking cooking. Let's do it
The Gatekeeper (11:04.607)
No, dude, it was really good. Now it sounds like we're really like, no, man, was awesome. No.
It was good, man.
The Gatekeeper (11:17.919)
We sure are. Well, as you guys know, we are landing the plane on the fate of the apostles. Last week, John Simon was challenged to do three. I'm not over that. I'm still bitter. And he did one. And. And you did, you did. Yeah, Tommy, why don't you tell us in detail what you thought?
Dinkleberg (11:33.6)
One for three. You should be.
but I did one real well. Thomas, what did you think of that episode?
Caesar Of The West (11:45.76)
It was so good.
Dinkleberg (11:48.289)
Thomas, did you like that joke that I made where I referenced you about the about six minutes in maybe probably six and a half minutes? How hard did you laugh when you heard that joke?
Caesar Of The West (11:55.711)
I always loved that.
The Gatekeeper (11:55.733)
Yeah, what was it? What was the joke, Tommy? Remind me.
Caesar Of The West (11:59.564)
I laughed so hard I blacked out and forgot the joke.
Dinkleberg (12:02.43)
Let me ask you though, was it, did you, did you feel offended about kind of the, the riff that I made on the sacraments? Was I going too far when I said that, that thing about kids baptism?
The Gatekeeper (12:03.053)
Dude, he's...
The Gatekeeper (12:13.037)
Mm-hmm
Caesar Of The West (12:13.294)
That's bait. That's bait. That's bait.
The Gatekeeper (12:17.173)
Listen to your own show, Tommy. Boo. Okay, look, hey, so we got two tonight.
Caesar Of The West (12:21.582)
I didn't even have wifi where I was for the longest time.
The Gatekeeper (12:24.915)
We got we got two episodes or two, not two. We have two episodes left. Three Apostles, two up tonight. The big, the bad, the Paul next week. So tune in, tune in next time for Paul this week, though. Do you guys know you guys know who we have left? Who we got left?
Dinkleberg (12:46.182)
at Thadenbart.
The Gatekeeper (12:47.991)
Thaddeus and Bartholomew or Judas and Nathaniel depending on how you want to go about naming them.
Dinkleberg (12:56.032)
Yeah, I'd probably go by my middle name if my first name was Judas around this time.
The Gatekeeper (12:59.693)
Yeah, poor guy. That's right. No. Who's... Teacher calls attendance. Judas Nathaniel. It's Nathaniel. Was that the one who killed... Different Judas. Get it all the time. Thanks, though. So, okay, hey, so we're gonna start with Thaddeus. We're gonna explore him and then we're gonna do Bartholomew because there's some tasty, tasty stuff there. First things first, though.
Caesar Of The West (13:01.795)
Real.
Dinkleberg (13:11.7)
That guy Judas who was following Jesus in a... No, different Judas. Different Judas. Yeah.
The Gatekeeper (13:29.449)
I realized, dear listeners, during my research this week, that I was like, you know, was like Googling like, pseudepigraphal sources on Bartholomew, blah, blah, Gnostic sources on Bartholomew. And I realized I didn't actually know the difference off the top of my head between apocryphal writing, pseudepigraphal writing, and Gnostic writing. And so I'm curious, before I give the answer, do you two know?
Caesar Of The West (14:00.376)
The difference?
The Gatekeeper (14:01.183)
Yeah, because we've been reading so much of it for like months and I just realized I don't even
Caesar Of The West (14:06.574)
feel like I know the difference between apocryphal writing and gnostic writing but I don't know as in from the apocrypha or apoc I guess I don't know how like what it would
The Gatekeeper (14:09.473)
Good. Yeah. What's the what's apocryphal?
The Gatekeeper (14:16.023)
Yep. Yep.
Dinkleberg (14:26.688)
is apocryphal.
Caesar Of The West (14:27.01)
how it would be defined other than that it's contained in the collection of writings known as the Apocrypha.
The Gatekeeper (14:33.077)
Right, non-canonical but useful.
Dinkleberg (14:33.984)
Right. Like deuterocanonical.
Caesar Of The West (14:36.492)
Yeah.
The Gatekeeper (14:39.191)
Sure.
Caesar Of The West (14:39.406)
Not deuterocanonical but but the Well, I guess the apocrypha is is a dude
Dinkleberg (14:41.976)
it is.
Off to Google I go.
The Gatekeeper (14:45.687)
Well now there's a fourth term I don't know the difference of.
Caesar Of The West (14:51.022)
The Apocrypha becomes Deuterocanonical once it gets added to the canon later on in church history.
Dinkleberg (14:57.864)
no i would are i thought that that the parker for was always to your canonical because it was the second can like it was out it was external to the can
Caesar Of The West (15:09.144)
That's not how I understand that word, but I don't know enough to be like dogmatic.
The Gatekeeper (15:14.123)
Look, man, I got the difference between the three. so I know. I did. So Tommy's right in the sense of the apocryphal writings are the ones contained in the apocrypha, useful but not canonical. So those are like good stuff that the saints of yesteryear signed off on but knew it wasn't canonical.
Dinkleberg (15:15.072)
why you don't ask questions, Taylor. You ruined the whole show just now.
Caesar Of The West (15:38.734)
Quick side note, that's actually what the belgian confession says about it. So our church's confession says that the apocrypha is good for like Christian life, but it's not holy scripture.
The Gatekeeper (15:49.312)
Right. That's right. Good old First Clement. I think he's in there, Yep. Yeah, Diddeke. Yeah, yeah. So what you got, though, is then you have the pseudepigraphal, which is a category of writings, which, pseud meaning false, so it's false writings. And those are the ones that's like Gospel of Thomas, Acts of John, know, random.
Dinkleberg (15:51.36)
Mm-hmm.
Caesar Of The West (15:55.436)
Yep, Belle, Belle and the Dragon.
Dinkleberg (15:58.451)
and told it the Mac of these.
The Gatekeeper (16:18.957)
Basically everything the History Channel just like runs with for their little conspiracy theory shows. That's that's gonna be the pseudepigraphal and pseudepigraphal... Yeah, fake writings. Now...
Caesar Of The West (16:27.502)
Does it mean like fake apostle?
Okay, but it's not necessarily all apostolic. Fake apostolic. Okay.
The Gatekeeper (16:34.701)
No, it's a category. It's a category of Gnostic writing though. So or rather Gnosticism, the pseudepigraphal writings can be Gnostic. Gnostic is actually super hard to define.
Caesar Of The West (16:42.359)
Okay.
Dinkleberg (16:52.916)
Yeah, because like, like, pseudepigraphical and apocryphal, that's just like their relationship to the church. But Gnostic is like, it's like content, like what it, what it says and who wrote it.
The Gatekeeper (16:53.826)
Yeah.
The Gatekeeper (17:03.276)
Right.
The Gatekeeper (17:06.857)
Right. So obviously, the church isn't going to call Gnostic writing useful. So that's why the apocryphal writings are not Gnostic. But a lot of the pseudepigraphal writings are. anyway, I hope that clears that up. And so we've seen lots of Gnostic themes in and out of what we've been reading. And we're going to be in some more pseudepigraphal writings and sort of Gnostic writings today.
And it gets difficult to know what's historical, what's embellished, all of that. But there's some good stuff in our readings today. But we're going to go ahead and just start with Thaddeus. So first off, what do we know about Thaddeus?
Dinkleberg (17:54.144)
He was a fisherman.
The Gatekeeper (17:56.558)
Bye. Boo!
Caesar Of The West (17:58.2)
feel like we don't know a lot about him,
Dinkleberg (17:59.137)
Was I right?
The Gatekeeper (18:02.125)
We know very little in the writing. Matthew and Mark place him number 10 in the apostolic list right after little James. Yeah. So Luke places him 11th right before Judas Iscariot. Yes. And yes, Thaddeus and Judas, son of James, they refer to the same person.
Dinkleberg (18:10.772)
rough.
Bottom three.
The Gatekeeper (18:31.805)
So.
We actually have one moment in the Gospel of John where he includes Judas, not Iscariot. And they're in the upper room and Judas, not Iscariot, slash Thaddeus asks Jesus, Jude, he asks, well, and in my, dude, in my research, I did not find
Dinkleberg (18:54.016)
You just call him Jude.
The Gatekeeper (19:04.393)
I didn't come across anything saying this guy was the same guy that wrote Jude, but it probably was, I don't know.
Caesar Of The West (19:10.168)
Really? Cause I think...
Dinkleberg (19:10.703)
that's interesting.
The Gatekeeper (19:14.091)
I'm not saying he's not, might be, but I don't want to make that claim because I didn't look into that. And I have come to realize that I'm going to need about three PhDs to answer every possible question that we can get at.
Caesar Of The West (19:28.218)
I think it is, I mean I'm just on Wikipedia right now, it says the Epistle of St. Jude is usually attributed to the Apostle Jude.
The Gatekeeper (19:36.385)
Okay, good.
Dinkleberg (19:36.832)
Jude the brother of Jesus.
Caesar Of The West (19:39.714)
That's true, but this is under the Wikipedia entry for the Jude who's also identified as Thaddeus.
Dinkleberg (19:53.478)
Interesting. Okay, I'm to go to Encyclopedia Britannica.
The Gatekeeper (19:54.251)
Yeah, so right off the bat, we're.
Caesar Of The West (19:55.594)
It says he is sometimes identified with Jude the brother of Jesus, but is clearly distinguished from Judas Iscariot. So it sounds like there's some maybe some difference of opinion on if this is the same guy who's the brother of Jesus.
The Gatekeeper (20:08.269)
You know what we do know about Jude though? Is the early church fathers thought it was canonical. Therefore, we've inherited it in our canon.
Dinkleberg (20:20.394)
That's right, it's in the Bible.
The Gatekeeper (20:21.549)
It's in the Bible when Paul was given the King James Version on the road to Damascus.
Caesar Of The West (20:27.566)
So maybe you're going to talk about this, but did the early church fathers have opinions on the identity of the author of Jude then? Whether it's the brother of Jesus or...
The Gatekeeper (20:33.901)
Dude, I'm sure I don't. I didn't get there. Like I said, man, I'm going to need about three PhDs to answer any and all of these questions. But what I can say is that in John 14, 22, Judas, not Ascariot, asks Jesus, Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us and not to the
And that's when Jesus says, know, if you love me, you obey my commandments. And then he promises the Holy Spirit, all of that. So outside of that, we know nothing. We don't know his life before. We don't know his life after. We know that his name is not a Hebrew name. There's some discussion that he was a zealot like Simon, but it doesn't...
It does that, part of that speculation is because of his listing, he gets placed next to Simon. Some people say that he's son of James the Great, that Levi is the apostle Thaddeus, so look, there's like a lot of theories.
Caesar Of The West (21:52.14)
If he's the son of James the Great, that mean he's Jesus' nephew?
The Gatekeeper (21:56.878)
Yeah, yeah, it could be right? No, the timeline wouldn't make sense there. I don't think so. Unless he was little, which who knows he may have been, but here's what we do know. Here's what we do know. OK, he traveled with Jesus. He heard Jesus teach. He witnessed miracles and Jesus considered him trusted enough to be in the 12, right?
Caesar Of The West (22:05.582)
Unless he's a little, little guy.
It's like a six year old apostle.
Dinkleberg (22:26.015)
Right.
The Gatekeeper (22:27.393)
So that's what we got. Now, there's an early story of Thaddeus that's popular in Eastern churches. but before I get into that, what do we know? What's the tradition claim on Thaddeus?
Caesar Of The West (22:45.422)
As far as his death? I don't know actually.
The Gatekeeper (22:46.475)
Yeah!
Dinkleberg (22:50.428)
shoot all right okay well let's let's just do process of elimination here because we know thomas was speared andrew had the x-shaped cross and most of these were disproven by you know taylor the grouch let me think i'm gonna go with beheaded
The Gatekeeper (22:59.031)
Yep. Yep.
The Gatekeeper (23:09.246)
Okay.
The Gatekeeper (23:14.381)
Tommy sent his little cheat sheet for this whole show. Yeah, it was arrows. It's the tradition. It's the traditional claim. There's actually a lot, which leads me
Dinkleberg (23:18.426)
was it arrows? Was he right? He got St. Sebastian.
Dang. So much variety.
Caesar Of The West (23:28.024)
Was it somewhere in the east? Is that why the eastern church is like it? It was you martyred in the east?
The Gatekeeper (23:32.437)
Well, that's what the tradition claim is.
Dinkleberg (23:36.266)
we go.
The Gatekeeper (23:38.049)
So all that comes from Eusebius.
Dinkleberg (23:44.319)
Okay.
The Gatekeeper (23:44.961)
So I'm just going to straight up go straight to the source. If you want to follow along, is Ecclesiastical Histories, chapter 13.
And I'm just going to read. And this is basically what we've got on Thaddeus. OK?
Caesar Of The West (24:07.544)
Let's go.
The Gatekeeper (24:08.173)
This is verse two of chapter 13. For instance, the King Abgerus, who ruled with great glory the nations beyond the Euphrates, being afflicted with a terrible disease, which it was beyond the power of human skill to cure. When he heard the name of Jesus and of his miracles, which were attested by all with one accord, sent a message to him by a courier and begged him to heal his disease. Got a king, he's in the East, he's sick, he sends a message to Jesus.
But he did not at the time comply with his request, yet he deemed worthy of a personal letter in which he said that he would send one of his disciples to cure his disease and at the same time promise salvation to himself and all his house. This is kind of interesting coming from Eusebius. Not long afterward his promise was fulfilled, for after his resurrection from the dead and his ascent into heaven, Thomas, one of the 12 apostles, under divine impulse, sent Thaddeus.
who was also numbered among the 70 disciples of Christ to Edessa as a preacher and evangelist of the teaching of Christ. Couple interesting things. Eusebius is talking like this is factual. So he clearly believes it. Second thing, remember, Eusebius is like early fourth century though. So this is like late. This is well outside the window of living memory. So there could have been a source.
Caesar Of The West (25:32.012)
And is it the same Thaddeus?
The Gatekeeper (25:35.148)
Well, what could lead you to question if it is the same Thaddeus, because other tradition has him going here. This just happens to be the nice bow and story. But what could lead you to believe that it's not the same Thaddeus is because he says Thomas under divine impulse. So you have apostle Thomas sending Thaddeus.
Caesar Of The West (25:35.694)
is very nice.
Caesar Of The West (25:48.302)
Okay.
The Gatekeeper (26:04.577)
So that's kind of weird if there was a ranking. And who was also among, who was also numbered among the 70 disciples of Christ. So.
Could be or not, could not be. As we've talked about in other episodes, Eusebius gets people confused. So point is, this is the source we've got on him. And he's going to Mesopotamia. That's where Odessa is. This is verse five. And all our save.
Dinkleberg (26:30.282)
That's Iraq, right? Isn't that Iraq?
The Gatekeeper (26:32.877)
Ish, I don't know, somewhere in that... part of the world. Thank you. Thanks, John.
Dinkleberg (26:36.064)
Okay, I'm on it.
you
The Gatekeeper (26:41.643)
And all that our Savior had promised received through him and him its fulfillment. You have written evidence of these things taken from the archives of Edessa, which was at the time a royal city. For in the public registers there, which contain accounts of ancient times and acts of abgarus, these things have been found preserved down to the present time. But there is no better way than to hear the epistles themselves, which we have taken from the archives and have literally translated from the Syriac language in the following manner.
Caesar Of The West (27:10.304)
So, hold up, you see beasts as like, I went to Odessa, I grabbed these epistles and I translated them? That's pretty cool.
The Gatekeeper (27:15.627)
Yeah, pretty much. It's super sick. So he says, this is from the trans, this is translated from Syriac. So this is Eusebius translating these ancient letters. Abgerus, ruler of Edessa, to Jesus the excellent savior who has appeared in the country of Jerusalem, greeting. I have heard the reports of you and your cures as performed by you without medicines or herbs, for it is said that you make the blind to see and the lame to walk, that you cleanse lepers and cast out impure spirits and demons.
that you heal those afflicted with lingering disease and raise the dead. And having heard all these things concerning you, I've concluded that one of two things must be true. Either you are God and having come down from heaven, you do these things, or else you who does these things are the son of God. I have therefore written to you to ask you if you would take the trouble to come to me and heal the disease which I have. For I have heard that the Jews are murmuring against you and are plotting to injure you, but I have a very small yet noble city which is great enough for us both. This is wild.
Caesar Of The West (28:13.622)
So, yeah it is. So is like the dating of this. Somebody wrote a letter to Jesus before his crucifixion.
The Gatekeeper (28:22.561)
That's what the claim is. I hadn't either. I hadn't either until this.
Caesar Of The West (28:24.846)
I've never heard of somebody writing a letter to Jesus. This is so interesting. Because at first I was like, this is somebody who heard about the resurrection but not the ascension. And then they're like, you get a letter back from the apostles and like, actually he floated into heaven.
Dinkleberg (28:28.768)
Hmm.
The Gatekeeper (28:35.275)
No, dude, this guy just like.
Dinkleberg (28:41.194)
You just missed him. You just missed him. man.
The Gatekeeper (28:43.341)
Or you get the letter written in the three days that he's dead?
Caesar Of The West (28:43.755)
Yeah.
Caesar Of The West (28:48.79)
Yeah.
The Gatekeeper (28:49.675)
Hey King, here's the deal, things kinda went south here.
Dinkleberg (28:51.744)
don't know how to break it to you. Yeah, look, let's just say we're all a little surprised. Also Mesopotamia.
Caesar Of The West (29:00.568)
Three days later, hold the camera. He's alive.
The Gatekeeper (29:01.905)
Three days later. Three days later. JK JK forgive me. I'm weak. Yeah. So
Dinkleberg (29:05.108)
Return to cinder, return to cinder. Mesopotamia was a Roman province established in the late second century and it was modern day Iraq, but it's, you know, the middle East, just that little chunk. Okay, carry on.
The Gatekeeper (29:18.113)
Yes, so this, what we just read is supposedly the letter written by Abgerus to Jesus. Now here is supposedly the answer from Jesus to Abgerus.
Blessed are you. This is supposedly Jesus. Yeah, this is, well, Jesus, know, probably.
Caesar Of The West (29:35.489)
Okay.
Dinkleberg (29:38.139)
Wait, this is Jesus writing?
Are the letters in red? Because I'm skeptical.
The Gatekeeper (29:45.794)
The newadvent.org did not make that. And I highly doubt the anti-Nicene church fathers put that in red as well, okay. Blessed are you who has believed in me without having seen me. Already I'm skeptical on that because that's almost verbatim from the gospels.
Dinkleberg (30:09.652)
He likes to repeat himself.
The Gatekeeper (30:11.561)
True. it is written concerning me that they who have seen me will not believe in me looking at you, Thomas. Dude, what if Jesus was transcribing this just looking at Thomas? man.
Dinkleberg (30:26.08)
Or actually, here's another wild theory. What if Thomas was writing as Jesus because of the whole twin scenario that we talked about in the last episode? I'm just saying. He's like, I'll take care of this. Scribble, scribble.
The Gatekeeper (30:32.587)
No, stop.
Listen, all's... ...out.
Caesar Of The West (30:39.394)
He's like, and to prove that it's me, I've included a Polaroid of myself in the letter.
Dinkleberg (30:45.064)
That's right. It's a real Bruce Wayne and Batman situation here.
The Gatekeeper (30:49.131)
Yeah, okay. But in regard to what you've written me, that I should come to you. It is necessary for me to fulfill all things here for which I have been sent. And after I have fulfilled them, thus to be taken up again to him that sent me. But after I've been taken up, I will send to you one of my disciples that he may heal your disease and give life to you and yours.
Caesar Of The West (31:06.638)
this.
This sounds exactly like when your great aunt has been messaging some guy from India who says, who says that they're Keith Urban. And it's like, I'm sorry, I can't come see you. I have to stay in Nashville. I got a lot of recording to do.
The Gatekeeper (31:15.917)
no!
Dinkleberg (31:19.817)
it
Dinkleberg (31:25.12)
Yeah, would you like me to mention you in my next album?
The Gatekeeper (31:30.135)
Right, and great aunt Marge is like, I sent Keith Urban $10,000. okay.
Caesar Of The West (31:37.504)
I'd love to come see you when I'm stuck in Judea, ugh!
Dinkleberg (31:40.736)
Marge, my guitar is broken.
The Gatekeeper (31:44.172)
right. So without reading all of it, because I want to read a lot of Martyrdom of Bartholomew, essentially Eusebius then goes on to explain Thaddeus's journey.
So that I do not, I'm just triple checking.
I don't, he doesn't have the martyrdom, because this is the last chunk. That's such an awesome line. These things were done in the 340th year. That's in their calendar, obviously.
Not ours. I have inserted them here in their proper place, translated from the Syriac literally, and I hope to good purpose. Eusebius, if you can hear us from heaven, they were for good purpose, If not for the memes.
So.
Caesar Of The West (32:56.61)
You heard it here first folks, Taylor praying to a saint in heaven.
The Gatekeeper (33:00.823)
my god.
Dinkleberg (33:01.756)
It's just, it's just a nod. It's a nod. He wasn't asking for anything.
The Gatekeeper (33:05.613)
I didn't ask you to see this or anything. I'm just saying maybe he's among the great clout. Maybe he's among the great cloud of witnesses. Do consider that?
Caesar Of The West (33:08.418)
He did talk to him though.
Caesar Of The West (33:14.924)
him about it. One time I asked Mike Goheen, I was like, Hey, do you ever like try praying to the saints on for size, you know, and talk to like Leslie Newbegin or Herman Boving and he was just like, no. I was like, it was a joke. Mike.
The Gatekeeper (33:16.183)
I know you.
The Gatekeeper (33:21.997)
You
The Gatekeeper (33:32.535)
Dude, if there is a single theologian that has never been prayed to, it's Herman Bobink.
Dinkleberg (33:38.132)
That's so funny. That's so funny. my gosh. Yeah.
The Gatekeeper (33:40.139)
Like, everybody that even knows his name is like the polar opposite of that. Somebody's probably already prayed to John MacArthur, but nobody has.
Dinkleberg (33:50.12)
I don't, I think they're probably in the same camp. I don't think anyone's praying to John MacArthur.
The Gatekeeper (33:53.067)
Nah, nah, I wide enough reach. know, somebody has.
Caesar Of The West (33:54.572)
No, that guy who prayed like, help me Donald Trump, like he's prayed to John MacArthur.
The Gatekeeper (34:03.649)
Yeah. So, okay. Sean McDowell in the book we're giving away, The Fate of the Apostles, he says this story bears all the marks of legend. But just because something's legend, the example we used last week is like if, you know, pretend all US history gets wiped out and all that remains is a little Disney VHS of
some story of Lewis and Clark. That doesn't mean that, and you know, there's the talking bears and what was the animal we said, like the little beaver, the cute beaver that follows them, named Chuck, right? So like, future people are gonna look at that and go, okay, Chuck is probably not real. At the very least, Chuck is an analogy for something, right? At the very least. But they might say, right. Right.
Dinkleberg (34:43.786)
Yeah, the little talking beaver. Mm-hmm.
Dinkleberg (34:56.668)
Mm-hmm. Chuck was just the Native Americans.
Caesar Of The West (35:00.27)
It's an analogy for ayahuasca.
Dinkleberg (35:02.708)
Mm-hmm.
The Gatekeeper (35:03.361)
They might say Lewis and Clark probably happened though. And they might find a few little references of it here and there. So we can't exclude things.
Dinkleberg (35:08.734)
Right. Right.
Caesar Of The West (35:13.442)
That's a great analogy. I'd love that for the second time, especially when I heard it for the first time on the last episode.
Dinkleberg (35:18.16)
man, the first time I heard it, it blew me away. It blew me away. I'm so glad I'm settled for the second time. Yeah.
The Gatekeeper (35:24.631)
So to wrap up Dear Thaddeus so we can get to Bart Bart, a couple other legends sort of in the same thing. If you want to read more about it, Sean McDowell's book, Fate of the Apostles, enter to win it or buy it on your own. OK, so essentially nothing super fun here except mission work, very probably true.
Dinkleberg (35:50.462)
in Mesopotamia.
The Gatekeeper (35:53.837)
Work outside Jerusalem.
Dinkleberg (35:57.071)
he barely even left town. Okay.
The Gatekeeper (35:58.414)
Because this is the general evidence that we have for all the apostles going off and doing things. Thaddeus experienced martyrdom, and that one's as plausible as not. What? Yeah, but there's also not.
Dinkleberg (36:04.01)
Sure, sure, sure, sure. Okay. Yeah.
Dinkleberg (36:13.992)
Okay, but being arrowed. Who even would be arrowing people though? That's not something they would do in Jerusalem.
The Gatekeeper (36:22.495)
No, that would have been like ancient Armenia. Yeah. Non-martyr traditions include the acts of Thaddeus, Hippolytus on the 12th, Bravarium, Abustolorium, and a couple other ones that say he died of old age. So once again, as we transition over to Bart, I find it incredibly amusing that what we have been taught
Dinkleberg (36:27.077)
interesting. Okay. Okay.
Dinkleberg (36:41.418)
Okay.
The Gatekeeper (36:50.925)
Time and time again, we've referenced this. We have been taught that the apostles all were martyred and the early church fathers were not even super on it. You have early church fathers saying, no, that one died of...
Dinkleberg (36:58.912)
Correct.
Dinkleberg (37:07.23)
Mm-hmm. Well, it's almost like to the church fathers, they were more impressed with where they went because that's, that laid claim to like, this church and this region has an apostolic foundation. It wasn't that big of a deal if they were martyred.
The Gatekeeper (37:08.375)
So.
The Gatekeeper (37:15.521)
Yeah, that's what mattered to them.
The Gatekeeper (37:25.121)
Right. The solid, let's make it clear too, the solid people, and you can't blame them because the church was a unified thing back then. Pastor Bob didn't start a church plant and meet in the Coliseum on Tuesday mornings when it wasn't being used. That just wasn't, you like that? That just.
Dinkleberg (37:36.16)
Mm-hmm.
Dinkleberg (37:45.768)
in the Spanish speaking churches on Wednesday morning.
Dinkleberg (37:51.74)
Iglesia de Coliseo.
The Gatekeeper (37:54.87)
no, that's right. Yeah, yeah. So that, that did not happen. The church was unified. And so they had, they wanted to have the apostolic origins. Now, not as solid people would try to claim I have the bones of so-and-so.
Caesar Of The West (37:55.308)
Ha!
The Gatekeeper (38:15.117)
I have the bones of so and so and that helps, you know, and I don't know, dude, I heard about this lady in the early church. Don't ask me what time periods, patristic era ish. She would like, she was in Northern Africa. She was rich lady and she would like kiss the bones of martyrs before taking communion.
Dinkleberg (38:33.44)
That sounds pretty hardcore actually. That's super metal. I'm not even mad at that. That's pretty cool.
The Gatekeeper (38:35.177)
And
And so I can't remember which one is one of our guys that we've talked about. One of our guys was basically like, you have to tell her to stop to the bishop. And he's like, he's like, you have no idea how much drama this is going to cost. And he's like, here's like, you have to do it, dude. And so he did it. And then sure enough, there was, I think there's something that she like helped feed into the Donatists. So dude, it's a whole thing. Yeah. Same, same area, right?
Dinkleberg (38:43.36)
Yeah.
Caesar Of The West (38:47.81)
Dinkleberg (39:04.582)
interesting. Dude, Northern Africa was just always on something, bro. Gosh, man, they would not chill out.
The Gatekeeper (39:09.665)
Dude, it's all, I know. Meanwhile, just go south a little bit. Ethiopia is just already doing their own thing completely.
Dinkleberg (39:17.756)
I just, I would love just to be a fly on the wall for that conversation of the bishop and the priest where the bishop is like, Hey, what's this stuff about some lady kissing bones before communion? And he's like, yeah, it's weird. It's her name is Sarah. Like it's, I don't know, dude, like she does it. People seem to like it. I, it's really not worth bringing up. And he's like, sorry, dude.
going to have to talk about this.
The Gatekeeper (39:46.572)
Yeah, we're going to go ahead and stop that one, All right. OK, OK, OK. We got time. We're doing OK. This is our second to last one, We're landing the plane.
Dinkleberg (39:56.436)
Alright, we got Bart.
Dinkleberg (40:00.427)
Wow, feels like we just started.
The Gatekeeper (40:03.885)
Please put your seats and tray tables into the upright position.
Caesar Of The West (40:09.55)
That's a traveler.
The Gatekeeper (40:11.969)
That's right. Okay. What do you guys know about Bart? Big Nate? What Bart Big Nate? Natty light? Batty light?
Dinkleberg (40:16.202)
worst name of the apostles.
Caesar Of The West (40:20.504)
pretty timeless, you know?
The Gatekeeper (40:25.311)
It is. I knew a Bart.
Dinkleberg (40:30.249)
How much damage do you think Bart Sipson did to people naming their son Bartholomew?
The Gatekeeper (40:38.797)
Probably a good bit.
Dinkleberg (40:40.98)
Yeah. Yeah.
The Gatekeeper (40:42.433)
Well, I got I got some scripture for us. John one forty one to fifty one. If you want to follow along ESV, dear listener, John one forty one fifty one. Here we go. Actually, forty five to fifty one. I'm so sorry. Philip found Nathaniel and said to him, we have found him of whom Moses in the law and also the prophets wrote Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph. Nathaniel said to him.
one of the most famous lines in the New Testament. Can anything good come out of Nazareth?
Dinkleberg (41:17.034)
Bars.
The Gatekeeper (41:19.031)
Philip said to him, come and see. Jesus saw Nathaniel coming toward him and said of him, behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no deceit. Nathaniel said to him, how do you know me? I put the emphasis on how I sort of thought it. I mean, he's already like, he's like, hey, can anything good come from Nazareth? And then.
Dinkleberg (41:34.784)
I like that. saw it in the-
Dinkleberg (41:40.065)
No, no, no, no. Here's the thing. My man Nate gets a lot of crap for disin Jesus' hometown and for good reason. But I think the reason it's in the Bible is because it indicates that nobody thought that Nazareth had significance in terms of... in terms of Messiah for Pete's sake. So I don't think this was a what a dumb thing to say. think it was everybody was like, oh yeah.
Caesar Of The West (41:40.312)
Ha ha ha ha!
Caesar Of The West (42:01.891)
Yeah.
Dinkleberg (42:07.658)
Can anything good come out of Three Points? That's a Tucson joke. Can anything good come out of Shreveport? Yeah. Can anything good come out of San Manuel? man. Yeah, these are all Tucson jokes. Sorry, our non-local listeners.
The Gatekeeper (42:10.455)
Yeah. Or Blythe? Blythe for our West Coasters? Mammoth? Dude.
Caesar Of The West (42:11.448)
Ooh, man. Mammoth. Blimey.
Caesar Of The West (42:20.649)
Hahaha!
The Gatekeeper (42:22.903)
So yeah.
Caesar Of The West (42:25.058)
Blythe, is literally...
Like the spot that everybody in the nation stops to urinate. Like that's what that town is.
The Gatekeeper (42:37.293)
No, dude, and it smells like it too. I met a lady once while I was recruiting. She was a children's administer out in Blythe and she drove all far to come to this conference and I just thought, I'm gonna give you as much swag as I'm allowed to and just send you on your way saying, God bless you, sister. Like she's...
Caesar Of The West (42:57.366)
I knew somebody, I knew somebody who was a youth pastor in court site, which is like,
The Gatekeeper (43:01.445)
that's the same. It's basically Blythe. Dude, God bless those people. That is the equivalent of our boy Gregory of Nazianzus getting yeeted off by by old Basil to, you know, go to the church plant in the middle of nowhere.
Dinkleberg (43:04.202)
They're just, twins.
Caesar Of The West (43:04.28)
Same thing, yeah.
Dinkleberg (43:18.356)
Yikes, exactly right. That is exactly, yeah, that dude got outed to freaking blive. He was planting a church up in Kingman.
The Gatekeeper (43:20.257)
Yeah.
I did.
Caesar Of The West (43:23.822)
Those people.
The Gatekeeper (43:26.295)
That's right. Okay.
Caesar Of The West (43:26.766)
Yeah man, and those people have special treasures in heaven for church planting in these places.
The Gatekeeper (43:31.169)
They do. Let's get back to scriptures. So Nathaniel said, how do you know me? And Jesus answered him, before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you. Nathaniel answered him, Rabbi, you are the son of God, the King of Israel. Jesus answered him, because I said to you, I saw under the fig tree.
Dinkleberg (43:32.535)
yeah.
Caesar Of The West (43:54.842)
I like how this guy just somehow in your brain morphed into like what's that rapper like memes? It's just like anything good come out of Nazareth, bing bong! Bing bong!
The Gatekeeper (44:07.821)
BIG BANG!
Dinkleberg (44:08.416)
Sounds like Tony Soprano. My favorite is that these dudes grew up 10 miles from each other but Jesus has no accent and this guy
The Gatekeeper (44:16.555)
I'm not giving Jesus a Long Island accent. That's blasphemy.
Dinkleberg (44:20.064)
saying man living memory Taylor be historically consistent.
The Gatekeeper (44:25.793)
Jesus, right. Big bag, okay. Because I said to you, I saw you under the fig tree, do you believe? You will see greater things than the ant said to him. Truly, truly I say to you, you will see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the son of man. So, our boy, Natty Light is set up for success here.
Caesar Of The West (44:25.826)
What would you say to Joe Byron right now?
Dinkleberg (44:28.864)
Ding-bang!
The Gatekeeper (44:54.593)
Like he set up for success. I kinda, there's gotta be more. I'm sure there's some fancy pants paper written about the significance of Jesus saying, saw you under the fig tree and that being enough for Nathaniel, right? Like clearly Jesus using his eyes to gather a simple piece of information was not what was actually happening. I'm not entirely sure.
Caesar Of The West (44:55.98)
Yeah, that's pretty legit.
The Gatekeeper (45:20.033)
what that means. I don't know if it's like a prophetic, like you were under a fig tree when I was walking up here and it was a very simple prophecy and that was enough for Nathaniel to be like, hey, all right, you are the son of God, I'm all right. So.
Dinkleberg (45:33.408)
I'm fascinated by that. I'm gonna do some exploring while you keep going.
The Gatekeeper (45:35.969)
Well, what do we know about Bart and how he died? This might be the most brutal death, if legend.
Caesar Of The West (45:44.9)
I'm not gonna look at my cheat sheet. I don't know.
The Gatekeeper (45:50.635)
What do you got, John?
Caesar Of The West (45:51.086)
On the, well John's looking it up, I my instinct on the faith question is just that that's like the type of faith that Jesus really likes when people are given like just a little bit and then they're kind of pick up and run with it. And that to me, that seems like what's going on there.
The Gatekeeper (46:11.159)
Yeah, you know, like the lady, you know, the first thing that comes to my head is lady that just taps his cloak. Just just taps it. And she knew like that was enough. And he was like, it was enough. Boom. Yeah. So this the tradition for Bart slash Nathaniel is he is flayed and beheaded and in some crucified.
Caesar Of The West (46:17.742)
Mm-hmm.
Caesar Of The West (46:35.328)
Oof.
Caesar Of The West (46:39.16)
Dang, before or after being beheaded.
Dinkleberg (46:39.944)
All three?
The Gatekeeper (46:40.619)
Yeah. I don't know, dude. The one I got that we're going to dive into is,
is, is, well you'll see. I don't want no spoilers.
Caesar Of The West (46:52.142)
The inflate is where they remove your skin, right?
Caesar Of The West (46:57.848)
How do you survive that? Like, how does that even work?
The Gatekeeper (46:59.917)
not well. You you I mean you die pretty quick. Yeah, so
Caesar Of The West (47:04.152)
You bleep out.
Dinkleberg (47:04.16)
I don't.
Caesar Of The West (47:07.043)
Yeah.
Dinkleberg (47:08.574)
I don't know. Medieval folks were able to, you could skin somebody for a long time before they died.
The Gatekeeper (47:15.457)
Yeah.
Caesar Of The West (47:16.92)
They must know how to just avoid the arteries and stuff.
The Gatekeeper (47:19.541)
The text, we've got the text, The Martyrdom of Bartholomew, and it was likely written in the fourth century. And the earliest surviving reference we have is St. Jerome mentioning it around 398 CE. How are we doing on time? OK. I was kind of hoping we could chill in here for a while, but let's.
Dinkleberg (47:19.648)
I think that's exactly what they did, yeah.
Dinkleberg (47:36.01)
Doing great.
Dinkleberg (47:42.433)
Well, let me, let me hit you with the fig tree real quick. The only, the only thing I found that was interesting was that apparently, the connotation of sitting under a fig tree is something that you did when you were like praying or meditating or something like that. So I would imagine this was probably something he was doing in complete isolation or what he thought was complete isolation. So Jesus saying this was a surprise, but I think there's also some metaphor of like,
The Gatekeeper (47:45.357)
Mm.
Dinkleberg (48:10.452)
He was in this moment of like solitude and, you know, reflection and Jesus saw him in this like vulnerable reflective place and he was like, whoa, I didn't, I thought I was alone and yet you were there with me. So that's the best I can pull from that, but I'm not.
The Gatekeeper (48:21.293)
Nice. That's good. And hey, good for Nathaniel for that being enough for him to be instant sold out, right? So this is, like I said, martyrdom of Bartholomew. Some traditions have him going to India, much like our boy Thomas.
Dinkleberg (48:33.641)
Exactly. Yeah.
Dinkleberg (48:49.669)
India? You can't send two apostles to India.
Caesar Of The West (48:51.35)
in India.
The Gatekeeper (48:54.965)
So I'm going to read the first chunk just to set us up, and then I'm going to have to paraphrase some stuff until I get to the end. So historians declare that India is divided into three parts. The first is said to end at Ethiopia, and the second at Medea. And the third completes the country. And the one portion of it ends in the dark, and the other in the ocean. To this India, then,
The holy Bartholomew, the apostle of Christ, went, took up his quarters in the temple of Asterith, and lived there as one of the pilgrims and the poor. In this temple, then, there was an idol. Asterith. A-star-uth. You could also pronounce it. Asterith.
Caesar Of The West (49:29.238)
In the temple of what?
Caesar Of The West (49:36.61)
I wasn't questioning your pronunciation, was just, I thought it was interesting that he took up residence in a pagan temple.
The Gatekeeper (49:38.831)
you should.
Yeah!
Dinkleberg (49:42.546)
sound? Yeah, that's definitely a pagan temple.
The Gatekeeper (49:44.588)
And that's, I mean, dude, that's like par for the course for Paul. Yeah, but OK. So in this temple, then, there was an idol called Astaroth, which was supposed to heal the infirm, but rather the more injured all. So what I'm about to read, what's funny? What's funny about that?
Dinkleberg (50:08.39)
Supposed to heal them like no both my arms are broken this thing sucks
The Gatekeeper (50:13.129)
No, listen, listen. I'm going to, OK, I'm going to ex- no, no, no, no, no. So this, we do not have time.
Caesar Of The West (50:22.126)
So this is the same ancient goddess that the Israelites dealt with.
The Gatekeeper (50:26.455)
Probably. We don't have time to dive into the discussion that can come from this, but I do want to read this because this is super fascinating and basically has been relevant since the dawn of time. So listen, this is very old source. I don't care if it's Gnostic or not. What we're about to read is very good. So the line that made John Simon laugh, but rather the more injured them all. And the people.
Dinkleberg (50:27.006)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
The Gatekeeper (50:52.011)
were in entire ignorance of the true God and from want of knowledge, but rather from the difficulty of going to any other, they all fled for refuge to the false God. And he brought upon them troubles, infirmities, damage, violence, and much affliction. And when anyone sacrificed to him, the demon retiring appeared to give a cure to the person in trouble. And the foolish people seeing this believed in him.
But the demons retired not because they wish to cure men, but that they might the more assail them and rather have them all together in their power and thinking that they were cured bodily, those that sacrifice to them were the more diseased and soul.
Caesar Of The West (51:35.924)
exactly how demons work. That's right on target.
Dinkleberg (51:36.134)
I I see. Okay.
The Gatekeeper (51:38.017)
Dude, I know, you have a very, very, very early description of essentially witchcraft. And that's what he means by the more injured.
Dinkleberg (51:48.544)
Mmm.
Dinkleberg (51:54.752)
Mm-hmm, okay, okay. That makes a lot of sense.
Caesar Of The West (51:55.266)
like it was detrimental to their soul.
The Gatekeeper (51:57.472)
Yes, those that sacrificed to them were the more diseased in soul. Okay, so the next chunk you have, you have Bartholomew showing up and now Bartholomew shows up and Asterith stops working. And then, and then you have this and the demon Bekker answered them, this is people that are doing sacrifices and they're like, why isn't it?
Dinkleberg (52:02.794)
man.
The Gatekeeper (52:27.255)
Why isn't it working? And the demon Becker answered and said to them, from the day and hour that the true God who dwells in the heaven sent his apostle Bartholomew into the regions here, your God Asterith is held fast by chains of fire and can no longer either speak or breathe.
Caesar Of The West (52:41.782)
my gosh. Dude. That's metal.
Dinkleberg (52:46.72)
That's awesome. That's crazy. Yeah.
The Gatekeeper (52:46.825)
Yes. Yes. And so then they said to him, Who is this Bartholomew? And the demon says, he's the friend of the Almighty God and has just come into these parts that he may take away all the worship. He may take away all the worship of the idols in the name of his God and the servants of the Greeks said to him, tell us what he's like, that we may be able to find him. And so the
Caesar Of The West (53:00.961)
Woo!
Caesar Of The West (53:11.48)
He's just standing there in like a, in like the nose and mustache mask.
The Gatekeeper (53:17.025)
So they describe him, they get the description, and they go out hunting him. They go out hunting him.
Caesar Of The West (53:25.358)
So far I 100 % believe this, by the way. This is right up my alley.
The Gatekeeper (53:30.795)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I know. There's no reason to think it's false. So, you know, he's in hiding and then there's somebody who is possessed in a Bartholomew. This person actually who was possessed comes to him and says, Apostle of the Lord Bartholomew, your prayers are burning me up. And then the Apostle said, Hold your peace, come out of him. That very hour, the man who had suffered from the demon for many years was set free.
Now, here's where we get into our constant tropes. The legend. Now the king shows up. It's always the king. Isn't it, John Simon? It's always the king. And so he saw this exorcism happen, apparently. And then he has a daughter. And this is the exact quote. And he had a daughter, a demoniac, that is to say a lunatic.
Dinkleberg (54:09.449)
It is.
The Gatekeeper (54:22.923)
And he heard about the demonic that had been healed and he sent messages to the apostle saying, my daughter is grievously torn. I implore you therefore as you delivered him who suffered for many years, so also to order my daughter to be set free. And so Bartholomew comes and sets her free.
Now, skipping ahead, the king tries to buy Bartholomew. Here we have your typical, here's lots of treasure. And then they refuse. long story short, as I have to skip ahead here, I would highly recommend just reading this whole letter, listeners, is Bartholomew then gives the gospel to them. A very long description, a lot of emphasis on the Virgin Mary, which
Dinkleberg (55:08.138)
solid.
The Gatekeeper (55:08.851)
Yeah, because flesh is evil, know, Gnostics. Gnostics, am I right? Okay, so basically the king is like, let's prove that your god is better. I believe this, let's go do it. And so they go to the temple and they're sacrificing to the demon and nothing's happening.
And then the apostle kind of like rebukes the demon. And then here we have after the demon gets publicly shamed by Bartholomew, then the king gave orders and all the people brought ropes and crowbars and were not at all able to take down the idol. They're trying to destroy the idol. It's not coming down. And then the apostle says to them, unfasten the ropes.
And when they had unfastened them, he said to the demon dwelling it, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, come out of this idol and go into a desert place where neither winged creatures utter a cry nor voice of man has ever been heard. And straight away he arose at the word of the apostle and lifted up from its foundations. And in that same hour, all the idols that were in that place were broken to pieces." So he's like, get out of here and never come back.
Dinkleberg (56:23.04)
That's awesome.
Caesar Of The West (56:24.087)
Wow.
The Gatekeeper (56:29.451)
And the guy like has to go, the demon has to leave. And then all the people just, they just go, you know, what's it called when you go to those break rooms or whatever, the rage rooms? Yeah, they just did that to the temple.
Dinkleberg (56:39.658)
yeah yeah yeah breaking microwaves with sledgehammers and stuff
The Gatekeeper (56:44.199)
except in this case it's like satanic idols so it's great right and then so all the people start worshiping all the people start worshiping and you're like my gosh and so the story hits this crescendo but then another character enters it's the brother of the king who hears that all of his gods have been ripped away
Dinkleberg (56:47.134)
Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Caesar Of The West (56:48.163)
Heh heh.
The Gatekeeper (57:14.229)
And he is not happy.
And so...
Caesar Of The West (57:21.912)
What's his name? we know?
The Gatekeeper (57:24.755)
His, yeah, why you asking hard questions? I could have told you. Astragis. Astragis. Yeah, so the here's, okay, here you go. King, your brother Polymias has become disciple to a certain magician who has taken down our temples and broken our gods to pieces. And while they were thus speaking and weeping, behold, again, there came also some others from the cities round about both priests and people. And they said about weeping and making accusations before the king. So.
You have this is like so far for the course twisting what actually happened right to try to fit a narrative. You're not going to include all the good stuff that like makes it justified. You came in. Right, right. Like Atheneath Athanasius is black magic. Then the king Astroceus and a race and a thousand are men along with those priests in order that whoever they should find. Wherever they should find the apostle that might bring him to man. So.
Caesar Of The West (58:02.104)
Right.
Caesar Of The West (58:05.694)
Some dark lord showed up here and messed it
Caesar Of The West (58:24.814)
thousand men?
The Gatekeeper (58:26.123)
Yep. He wasn't playing around, dude. And he sent the full, he sent the full four. Yep. So fast forward. when he had spoken, the king was informed that this God baldad and all the other idols had fallen down and were broken in pieces. Then the king rent the purple in which he was clothed and ordered the holy apostle Bartholomew to be beaten with rods. And after having been the scourge to be beheaded.
Dinkleberg (58:28.896)
Wow, since the battalion.
The Gatekeeper (58:56.151)
But revival then comes from this.
Caesar Of The West (58:59.854)
Nice.
The Gatekeeper (59:00.543)
Revival then comes from this. People come back and they're like, my gosh. they made King Polymus, who's the first convert, actually becomes bishop in the area.
Dinkleberg (59:15.52)
That's always the king.
The Gatekeeper (59:17.374)
I know. I know.
Dinkleberg (59:18.949)
Is this Armenia? Is that where they are?
Caesar Of The West (59:19.01)
The same guy that ordered his death?
The Gatekeeper (59:22.057)
India, which yeah. So Sean McDowell.
Dinkleberg (59:23.955)
this is India.
interest.
Caesar Of The West (59:28.539)
So the guy who becomes bishop was the same guy that ordered his death? Different king?
The Gatekeeper (59:33.259)
No, no, no, no, no, no. The first king. The first, the first king to convert. The one who's, yeah, the first king to convert becomes Bishop.
Dinkleberg (59:35.96)
dude, the Donatists would have lost it.
Caesar Of The West (59:38.594)
Hahaha
Caesar Of The West (59:42.424)
They're doing what over in India?
Caesar Of The West (59:48.727)
Okay, okay.
Dinkleberg (59:48.768)
Okay, okay. Yeah.
The Gatekeeper (59:51.821)
So, Bartholomew engaged.
Caesar Of The West (59:53.432)
But did I follow the story right? That the king whose daughter was exorcised is the same king who ends up ordering his death?
The Gatekeeper (01:00:03.657)
No, no, no, no, that's the good king. The king's brother is the one who was evil and sent the thousand men. Yeah, so to just give the quick little recap, Bartholomew shows up, the god's power is cut off, the king sees Bartholomew exercise a girl, and then he says, or exercise a man, and then he says, hey, can you do the same for my daughter? And then he does that. Bartholomew shares the gospel with the king. The king's like, man, all right, well let's.
Caesar Of The West (01:00:05.545)
I'm sorry, I felt-
Dinkleberg (01:00:11.487)
that's right. Okay, okay.
Caesar Of The West (01:00:12.908)
Okay.
The Gatekeeper (01:00:33.035)
let's figure out which God's stronger. Let's have a good old fashioned God showdown. And they show up and the demon like argues with Bartholomew and loses. And then the king is like, OK, the true God's definitely the true God. Tear down this stuff. Tear down this temple. know, Mr. Polkovich, tear down these walls. And they go to, I don't know the quote.
Dinkleberg (01:00:59.946)
This is not an American history podcast. Gorbachev, you freaking goober. Mr. Borkovich.
Caesar Of The West (01:01:08.462)
He tried to say Bolshevik and he said Bolkovic.
The Gatekeeper (01:01:11.273)
god!
Dinkleberg (01:01:12.448)
Mr. Borkovich. That sounds like a slur that people would use for Soviets. Yeah, saw a bunch of Borkovich's moving across the street. Gosh. Bork.
Caesar Of The West (01:01:23.438)
The Gatekeeper (01:01:24.683)
Whatever, I'm a patristics guy now apparently. So they try to tear down the temple. doesn't come down. Bartholomew does a final exorcism. Temple falls down, gods lose their power, and then the king's brother who's equally as powerful hears about it and then sends the people from his empire out to go kill Bart. And then they do. But then the good king becomes bishop and yeah.
Dinkleberg (01:01:28.306)
You
The Gatekeeper (01:01:54.572)
McDowell has Bartholomew engaging in missionary work, very probably true. Once again, that's just true for most of the apostles.
as plausible as not. So there's a martyrdom story of our me in him in Armenia. We have the one that we just read.
Dinkleberg (01:02:08.564)
How likely is the martyrdom?
Dinkleberg (01:02:22.164)
Does the Armenian Church claim Bartholomew as like their guy? Like the Coptics do with Mark?
The Gatekeeper (01:02:29.319)
No, not that I'm aware of, because they most, yeah, that they claim more.
Caesar Of The West (01:02:32.098)
Didn't we say the last guy who died in Armenia as well?
Dinkleberg (01:02:37.77)
Thaddeus? Interesting.
The Gatekeeper (01:02:38.401)
Yeah, they claim worth that, is. So Hippolytus on the 12 is where we get the Bartholomew. This is Hippolytus on the 12. Bartholomew, again, preached to the Indians, to whom he also gave the gospel according to Matthew, and was crucified with his head down when he was buried in Alanum, a town of the great Armenia. And then this is McDowell. One difficulty in establishing the reliability of the Bartholomew tradition is how late it appears in Armenian historiography.
Dinkleberg (01:02:57.396)
Mm-hmm.
The Gatekeeper (01:03:08.041)
So, I don't know, I picked the good story, right?
Dinkleberg (01:03:12.211)
interesting. Says they took both, the Armenian church. They claim Thad and Bart, but...
The Gatekeeper (01:03:18.496)
we had a little Armenian-themed episode.
Dinkleberg (01:03:21.598)
Which is interesting because I wonder if there's like some beef between India and Armenia about whether Bartholomew was in their territory or the other.
The Gatekeeper (01:03:30.485)
Well, I mean, think that the Indian church effectively died off where the Armenian church did not.
Dinkleberg (01:03:37.354)
Well, that's not true.
Caesar Of The West (01:03:37.602)
Yeah, Armenia, well, the Armenian church definitely thrived because Armenia was the first Christian nation in 301.
Dinkleberg (01:03:43.86)
Sure.
It's got more cultural impact, but the Indian church, you know, it's still alive. It's still around.
The Gatekeeper (01:03:52.487)
William Carey.
Caesar Of The West (01:03:53.08)
Yeah, well, no, it's interesting is I think when like the 19th century missionaries or whatever got there, they found Christians who had been there forever.
Dinkleberg (01:03:56.48)
Send you a link.
The Gatekeeper (01:04:04.243)
Right. I don't mean to say it died, it just didn't thrive in the way the Armenian church did.
Dinkleberg (01:04:05.428)
Well, we talked about this last week.
Dinkleberg (01:04:11.594)
the Indian church, there's a Syrian Orthodox church that has been in India since the first century. Yeah, mean, it's, yeah, dude, it's like they claim that they launched or their origin was 52 AD under St. Thomas and they're still kicking. So yeah, I mean, definitely, I'm sure they've struggled under the influence of Hinduism and Islam, but yeah, man, they're alive. Shout out to.
Caesar Of The West (01:04:11.921)
yeah.
Dinkleberg (01:04:40.596)
Shout out to the Malankara Orthodox out there, all of our Malankara listeners.
The Gatekeeper (01:04:47.127)
Well, that's what I got. We got Big Paul next week, and then we done.
Dinkleberg (01:04:51.38)
Big Paul, Polly Boy. I really want to hear your Long Island accent like obnoxiously when we're talking about Polly. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, you would have. Yeah.
The Gatekeeper (01:04:53.869)
poly-poly-oxen-free.
The Gatekeeper (01:04:58.925)
for Paul, like Paul, he would have had it long ago.
The Gatekeeper (01:05:05.825)
Bing-Bang! Peter, what are you doing?
Dinkleberg (01:05:10.688)
Alright, Dang, so we're gonna, we're gonna tidy up the 12 apostles and then what are we going into our next series after that? Are we gonna have a couple weeks of buffer stuff? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
The Gatekeeper (01:05:23.149)
Yeah, we'll do some smatherings.
Caesar Of The West (01:05:28.622)
Your mention of the Apocrypha made me think it might be cool. I might do an episode or two on some of the Apocryphal writings. might be kind of fun.
Dinkleberg (01:05:38.857)
That could be interesting.
The Gatekeeper (01:05:38.913)
You know, I wouldn't mind if you taught all of us, listeners included,
a general overview of them and what we do with them. don't know. There's so many. Because there's themes that take place in all of them, like tropes that take place in all of them. But some of them are very clearly more legendary. This one that we just read sounds historical to an evangelical, right? Like, that sounds like something that happened. Whereas, you know, the adventures of, was it Andrew?
Caesar Of The West (01:05:50.99)
Very cool.
Dinkleberg (01:06:06.964)
Mm-hmm.
The Gatekeeper (01:06:14.783)
and Bartholomew when they're going around the land of dragons, of she-dragons and...
Dinkleberg (01:06:21.64)
Right, right.
The Gatekeeper (01:06:23.149)
teaching goats how to talk good.
Dinkleberg (01:06:25.888)
Yeah, yeah, that could be cool doing an apocryphal episode. Plus I think some of our listeners have been asking about that. So that could be a little in between before we kick off the new series. Yeah.
The Gatekeeper (01:06:27.147)
Yeah.
yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Caesar Of The West (01:06:36.59)
It'll also probably upset some of our listeners.
The Gatekeeper (01:06:43.937)
Why you gotta, why you gotta?
Dinkleberg (01:06:44.394)
You know, we always say that we've never, well, actually, no, we've upset our listeners one time and it was our episode like two years ago on the Anabaptist. That's right.
Caesar Of The West (01:06:52.94)
The Anabaptists. Yeah. The Anabaptists are like the only people who have ever been like, NO! WE'RE PEACEFUL! HOW DARE YOU SAY WE'RE NOT PEACEFUL!
The Gatekeeper (01:06:54.935)
There was also that one guy that thought that you were.
Dinkleberg (01:07:05.182)
Okay, that is a misrepresentation, Thomas. That's not true. They were, did not.
Caesar Of The West (01:07:09.607)
that's true. Our listeners couldn't see me smiling while I was doing that. I was joking. I was joking. But they were the most aggressive in our comments.
Dinkleberg (01:07:12.372)
Yeah. They didn't flame us that bad. They didn't. They were actually very, they were very like, you know, typical Mennonite friendliness.
The Gatekeeper (01:07:14.455)
So there was also the guy.
Caesar Of The West (01:07:22.36)
It was more like, please do some actual research on anything other than the first Anabaptists, which fair enough, fair enough.
Dinkleberg (01:07:28.192)
Yeah, yeah, it was very reasonable. I'm not saying they were right, but they were peaceable about it.
The Gatekeeper (01:07:32.717)
What about the guy, John, that thought you were taking the Lord's name in vain?
Caesar Of The West (01:07:33.058)
Ha ha!
Dinkleberg (01:07:38.516)
That one bothered me so much, I think I said, gosh dang it or something like that. Yeah.
The Gatekeeper (01:07:41.235)
He heard you say like, you said, gosh dang. Yeah, which is like as spicy as your mouth ever gets.
Dinkleberg (01:07:49.248)
Yeah, so I was really I was really bummed about that. I think I I tried listening to that whole episode because I was like, did I like use the Nord's the Lord's name in vain? Like I don't use that off the mic. So was like, that's crazy. Yeah, one of the few Spotify comments I deleted the Nord's name in vain. Shout out the. Yeah, that's right. I only use pagan gods names in vain.
The Gatekeeper (01:07:53.398)
Yeah.
The Gatekeeper (01:08:01.526)
I know.
Caesar Of The West (01:08:04.482)
You said the Nord's name in
The Gatekeeper (01:08:08.797)
Hing-a-ding-a-durrg!
Caesar Of The West (01:08:10.506)
Yeah. Thor, dang it.
The Gatekeeper (01:08:14.349)
I just want the listeners to know that John Simon has already changed his Riverside nickname to Mr. Borkovich and his subtitle is President of Blasters Seminary.
Dinkleberg (01:08:27.168)
You
Caesar Of The West (01:08:30.766)
for com-
The Gatekeeper (01:08:31.681)
Mr. Borgush, tear down this wall.
Dinkleberg (01:08:33.888)
tear down your wall.
Caesar Of The West (01:08:38.094)
It's just a dog in a suit. He's like, I literally don't speak English.
Dinkleberg (01:08:40.928)
Mr. Barkovich. Just a dog wearing a necktie. my gosh, that's so good.
The Gatekeeper (01:08:45.6)
Dude, okay?
If we have, if we, look, I'm gonna go ahead and, if we get it, we need to have some shirts designs eventually. That's gotta be up there as a contender, Mr. Borkovich.
Caesar Of The West (01:08:49.602)
So...
Caesar Of The West (01:08:58.636)
Mr. Borkovich is one of them, yeah.
Dinkleberg (01:09:00.084)
Yeah, yeah, I think that's a great one. Yeah. We'll make sure, yeah, vote for stuff. Make sure you participate in our giveaway and yeah, let us know what shirt designs we should make that may or may not ever come to fruition. We appreciate you guys and we'll talk to you next week.
The Gatekeeper (01:09:04.097)
All right, we're out of time.
The Gatekeeper (01:09:19.682)
Bye bye.
Caesar Of The West (01:09:20.28)
bless you.
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