97. The Adventures of the Apostles: Did Paul Lose His Head in Rome??

They said we'd never make it. 

Our series on the apostles ends with easily the most impactful of them all: the man himself, Paul. Author of 251 books of the bible, survivor of many attempted murders, the world's greatest evangelist. 

But what does history say happened to him where the New Testament is silent? Was he killed in Rome under Nero's persecution? Or did something way LAMER happen? Let's unpack it. 

Also, the boys talk about our favorite hometown dinner spots (special shoutout to our beautiful listeners from the Old Pueblo), and whether it's worth it to live in California. It's probably not. 

Also, TODAY is the last day to vote for our new series! Midnight tonight, the ballots are closed, and we'll see what won (either the crusades, the great awakenings, or the fall of Rome). Do your duty, patriot! We love you guys. 

Buy us a coffee: https://buymeacoffee.com/chumphistory

Chapters

• 0:03 A Little Banter for the Boys
• 0:51 Favorite Lunch Spot in Town
• 8:15 A Haiku for Jeremiah (thank you, Jeremiah)
• 13:18 Last Chance to Vote!
• 13:46 Comments from our Listeners!
• 15:49 Let's Get to Paul
• 1:04:53 What to Look Forward To Next

Transcript

Mr. Borkavich (00:00.673)
Hey everybody, welcome to Church History for Chumps. My name is John Simon, or as they call me in the streets, Mr. Borkovich. We've got Taylor Kim Jong Un Treadway. And we've got the monk who likes to funk. Thomas, I almost called you Thomas Treadway. Thomas Duell. How you guys doing? I did change your nickname in our recording app. Yeah.

Kim Jung Un (00:10.439)
You changed my name in Riverside?

Monk Who Likes Social Media (00:13.474)
Hahaha

Kim Jung Un (00:25.865)
I got a little funky beat in my head, like a little...

Mr. Borkavich (00:31.629)
You know, the funky monk is a restaurant here in town. Have you guys ever been there? I've never been there once. Really? Okay. Yeah.

Kim Jung Un (00:35.419)
Yeah, sick burgers. Yeah, dude, it's good. It's the best that each side has to offer.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (00:37.934)
Really?

Monk Who Likes Social Media (00:43.918)
John, what's your favorite restaurant in Tucson?

Mr. Borkavich (00:43.981)
and

Mr. Borkavich (00:48.641)
jeez. Like, what's... What's the operat- Am I showing somebody around town? Is it like, sit down?

Kim Jung Un (00:49.448)
Nikos.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (00:49.854)
I crib- I just crippled him.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (00:59.786)
No, John wants to go to his favorite restaurant either with Annie, sweet Annie or by himself.

Kim Jung Un (01:04.969)
It's your birthday and he says you pick you pick. Yeah, it's your birthday. Where you going?

Mr. Borkavich (01:08.2)
it's my birthday. that sounds fun.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (01:13.698)
Cheesecake Factory, let's go!

Kim Jung Un (01:16.339)
Texas Roadhouse.

Mr. Borkavich (01:18.679)
You know what? I'm just going to go with my safe option. Cause this is the thing that I will get when Annie goes out to like hang out with her friends and they're having like a birthday celebration. I go to, I go to alafia. I get the red sauce chicken with the white rice and the double hot sauce. And it's a West African place. It's like a tomato broth with like crispy fried chicken in it. And the, hot sauce is like habanero based. So it's like.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (01:26.21)
There we go, that's what we're talking about.

Kim Jung Un (01:43.635)
Yeah.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (01:44.334)
Mm-mm.

Mr. Borkavich (01:48.289)
gonna punch you in the gut, but it's so freaking tasty, dude. I could eat that every day. It's so good.

Kim Jung Un (01:51.495)
It is good.

I desperately miss, for all the listeners, there's a little restaurant in Tucson. There's three of them. There's one on the East side. There's one Midtown and there's one up near Tommy's house. It's called Beyond Bread.

Mr. Borkavich (02:08.737)
Baja Cafe. wow, okay, alright.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (02:11.16)
Hehehehehe

Kim Jung Un (02:13.064)
I wish I had a Beyond Bread across the street with me. No, dude, everything. The sandwiches, the desserts, the Bart's bag, baby.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (02:16.024)
Those bread bowls.

Mr. Borkavich (02:20.525)
What's your go-to there?

Oh, this isn't the one that's like the ciabatta that's like glass just shattering the inside of your mouth. No! That is self-harm in a bag, bro. That is a self-harm sandwich.

Kim Jung Un (02:26.224)
Yeah. Yes, yes, dude. I asked, I asked a friend once. I asked a friend once many years ago. I said, do you like the Bart's back? And he said, no, Taylor, I, I don't like to feel like my jaw just had a workout eating a sandwich.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (02:29.71)
Hahaha!

Mr. Borkavich (02:46.317)
dude, it's like that SNL skit with Dan Aykroyd and he's like, yeah, we've been told that a lot of our kids toys are not safe, so we'd like to introduce you to Bag of Glass. And he just holds up a bag, like that's what that freaking sandwich is, dude. I do not like it, I do not like it.

Kim Jung Un (03:02.472)
It's the best. Tommy, what's your favorite local spot?

Monk Who Likes Social Media (03:09.6)
Recently, it's been Tuck Tuck Tie.

Mr. Borkavich (03:12.865)
Dude, that's a great... because they opened one on your side of town, right? Or have you been going to the one on Campbell? Dude, I like that place a lot. It's a great... it's ever since a really good Thai place downtown, a closed up shop, that's been my go-to Thai spot. They've got a great... they got pumpkin curry. It's so good.

Kim Jung Un (03:13.628)
They do like Mexican food.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (03:17.422)
there is one in Oro Valley, but I like going to the one on Campbell.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (03:32.78)
Yep, I forget the name of the...

Kim Jung Un (03:36.86)
So how, how tight is it? Like when you walk in, is it look cool or is there like a seven year old behind the counter and like half the lights, half the lights are off because they haven't changed the bulbs.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (03:37.006)
I'm Jenner.

Mr. Borkavich (03:43.756)
No.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (03:45.356)
It's not seven year old time now.

Mr. Borkavich (03:49.621)
I'm pretty sure all the waitresses are sisters or aunts. So I feel like it's pretty tie.

Kim Jung Un (03:54.73)
Okay, they're like, they're getting there. Yeah.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (03:57.752)
Yeah, the Pad Kee Mao and then the holy basil fried rice with beef. then their mango sticky rice is pretty goaded.

Mr. Borkavich (04:06.72)
dude, shout out to Basil the Great.

Kim Jung Un (04:15.048)
I gotta say though, where we're at in California, the Inland Empire, has just got a ton of Asian immigrants. And so, there's a Chinese place near us. they, when we first started going, I, no, it's called Mr. Dumpling. We would go in, we would go in, I don't,

Monk Who Likes Social Media (04:21.766)
that sounds so good.

Mr. Borkavich (04:22.541)
Mm-hmm.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (04:33.838)
called Gout to You.

Kim Jung Un (04:43.684)
know how much English any of the people that worked there spoke. I don't think it was much. And it is just so good and it is affordable. They have since hired a lovely man by the name of Stephen who... Stephen lived in Canada so he definitely he's got a lot of English.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (05:02.296)
He's like your translator, he's helping you broaden your culinary horizon.

Kim Jung Un (05:05.192)
dude, he's super westernized. And so he comes in, you come in and he's like smiling and waving. OK, look, this is how awesome Stephen is. And this also betrays how much my wife and I go to the shopping center because there's a pho place we like right there and a sushi place. We're there almost every week for something. Anyway, if we walk by because we're going to go to the boba spot, but we're not going to get the Chinese food, Stephen's like standing inside and like waves at us as we walk past.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (05:32.126)
Mhmmm.

Kim Jung Un (05:33.382)
That's what we got out here, boys, in California.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (05:36.846)
I love it. I love that you're a local in California. That's so good.

Kim Jung Un (05:41.164)
dude, I love that. Yeah, it's home now. I love the IE, man. I still have not been to LA.

Mr. Borkavich (05:41.173)
Yeah, you've been there for like two years.

Mr. Borkavich (05:46.925)
Hmm.

Mr. Borkavich (05:50.733)
think that's probably okay. Yeah.

Kim Jung Un (05:52.134)
I'm, well, it's probably why I'm still alive.

Mr. Borkavich (05:55.275)
Yeah, dude, LA just, I don't know, the stress of the traffic and everything being so busy. just, I don't know. I don't know if it's worth it. Yeah. It's helicopter.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (06:05.068)
Yeah, I would move there if I had a helicopter, for sure. Just fly over everybody, all the porters.

Kim Jung Un (06:09.862)
Dude, the trick to being happy in California is living and living where you work and going to church where you live. If you can keep it.

Mr. Borkavich (06:20.909)
living. Hold on. That was like a, that was like a Confucius say, living where you, I hate to write that, living where you, praying.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (06:22.68)
Yeah, yeah. No, no.

Kim Jung Un (06:28.104)
Yeah, it's if live where you work, go to church where you live. And if you are never having to deal with traffic, you get all the weather, all the awesome, you know, food and multicultural experience, because that's

Monk Who Likes Social Media (06:47.0)
Do you like walk or bike to a decent bit of stuff?

Mr. Borkavich (06:47.351)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Jung Un (06:50.984)
Uh, depending on where. No, no.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (06:54.414)
You

Kim Jung Un (06:57.48)
But it's like 10 miles. It's like everything's within like 10 miles. Everything's within 10. Actually, we don't even, I would say five.

Mr. Borkavich (07:02.541)
Is there anything?

Monk Who Likes Social Media (07:02.626)
Ten miles? Dude, that's like an hour and a half in LA.

Mr. Borkavich (07:05.388)
There's anything I there's anything I know about living in California it's keep your circle small you keep your circle small do you ever walk or but

Kim Jung Un (07:06.244)
I would say five minutes. Everything's five miles.

Kim Jung Un (07:18.023)
Not that small.

Mr. Borkavich (07:18.583)
really, you know, but I'll like drive like only put like half a tank of gas in a drive, you know.

Kim Jung Un (07:24.038)
Nah, dude, we spend less than 10 minutes on average getting to different locations. No, no, like a far drive for us is like a 15 minute where like, dang, that's kind of far.

Mr. Borkavich (07:30.541)
That's not too bad. That's not too bad for California.

Mr. Borkavich (07:36.833)
What's name of the city you live in?

Kim Jung Un (07:39.752)
called Ontario, i.e. represent.

Mr. Borkavich (07:42.165)
Hmm. Okay.

Kim Jung Un (07:45.798)
Yeah. Well, boys, they said it would never happen.

Mr. Borkavich (07:47.021)
Well, that's exciting.

Mr. Borkavich (07:51.351)
They said it would never end, and here we are.

Kim Jung Un (07:52.777)
They said we couldn't do it. And we proved them wrong. We are on polypolyoxin free.

Mr. Borkavich (07:58.638)
That's right.

Mr. Borkavich (08:02.829)
shoot, we're not yet though because I have have a I have a sonnet to read which is not a sonnet It's really just six bars. So here's the thing I listened to a really great radio episode of Like the first hip-hop group that ever got me Interested in hip-hop music. It's a very very underground Christian hip-hop group called Deep Space 5 if you've ever heard of them

Kim Jung Un (08:04.668)
Big P.

Kim Jung Un (08:09.552)
All right.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (08:09.707)
Ohhhh

Mr. Borkavich (08:31.371)
I'll donate to your buy me a coffee if you've ever heard of them. But I listened to them and it made me just like, was dude, it was like, and it's funny cause me and Taylor have joked about having a rap group, which we technically did many, many years ago, but it's like, it's all these like late forties dudes who were just talking about how they used to be. They were like their hay day was going to like Christian conferences in the nineties and like,

Kim Jung Un (08:42.536)
Yeeeeaaaah

Mr. Borkavich (08:57.709)
you know, playing at festivals to like 30 people, like they were just like, we knew we were never going to be big, but we just loved, we just loved the game. We just loved hanging with the boys. We just loved rapping and ciphering and having a good time and talking about Jesus. And I was like, gosh dang it. I wish I took this rap freaking thing more seriously. so I was like, all right, I'm going to write a rap about this guy, Jeremiah, who gave us money through our buy me a coffee. It's six bars long. and I'm not

Kim Jung Un (09:25.906)
Jeremiah did not just give us money, he subscribed.

Mr. Borkavich (09:29.291)
He subscribed. Yes. So this is not a haiku. It's technically two lines longer than a haiku. It would have been longer, but you know, I wanted everything to be, to be good. So, this is like a sonnet, but it's not, I've wanted to write it like a rap verse cause I wanted to see if I still got it. And I don't know if I do, but we'll see. So Jeremiah, thank you for your gift. No, no, no, absolutely not. Please. That'll make this so much. It'll make this so much worse. I know you're going to play like.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (09:49.582)
Do you need a beat?

Hahaha!

Mr. Borkavich (09:57.422)
You know, uh, right. Like to like collapse by Nate dog and Eminem instrumental off your phone. And I don't want that. So Jeremiah, thank you for the recurring gift. This is for you. Um, here we go. Uh, weeping Jeremiah, liar, liar pants on fire, doing donuts in the church parking lot. Got burning tires rocking technicolor threads with a medium teal.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (10:01.998)
Ha!

Mr. Borkavich (10:25.985)
Your boy is hotter than the spokes inside Ezekiel's wheels. Got a $2 bill and a 10. That's my apostle cash. Praisin' though they slay me when I'm sufferin' like some succotash. That's all I got. But I just.

Kim Jung Un (10:29.672)
You

Monk Who Likes Social Media (10:30.67)
SHOOT!

Kim Jung Un (10:41.064)
Dude, that was significantly better than Will Smith's little recent comeback rap. People ask me how I do it. I take a bite and chew it.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (10:41.166)
Dude.

Mr. Borkavich (10:45.727)
You

Monk Who Likes Social Media (10:52.098)
Ha. Ha.

Mr. Borkavich (10:52.685)
He said, I took the pin out the grenade before I threw it. And it's like, what are you talking about? That was really cringy. It was really bad.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (11:01.784)
The... that Ezekiel's wheels line was pretty... pretty fine.

Mr. Borkavich (11:05.463)
That was my favorite. That was my favorite.

Kim Jung Un (11:06.258)
Jeremiah, I hope you like your first chump rap, brother. Thank you for the gift.

Mr. Borkavich (11:09.911)
That's right, first of many more hopefully.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (11:11.598)
So I have seen a video that I think includes at least John, I don't know about Taylor and I think Bobby Bowman that I feel like should be released on the CH4C but somebody has to

Mr. Borkavich (11:22.709)
my gosh, Taylor was instrumental in this. If you're talking about what I think you're talking about.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (11:28.824)
So somebody, yeah, somebody's gotta donate like $500 or something though. And if they do, then we'll post.

Kim Jung Un (11:34.28)
Do you have, you have to find it before you hold it hostage.

Mr. Borkavich (11:38.135)
Brother, I have it. It's not gone anywhere.

Kim Jung Un (11:40.294)
Wait, wait, wait, is it the Jurassic Park rap?

Mr. Borkavich (11:43.539)
dude, it's been safe and snug in my archives for years, brother. I could pull it off of Facebook if I wanted to. Yeah. That would be fun. mean, yeah, if enough people just bug us for it.

Kim Jung Un (11:45.704)
man, should we have a donation? Have a donation goal for it.

That's so vain. We're not going to do that. I will say this, though. I we're super grateful for everybody that donates. If you if you feel inclined to donate, we don't pocket any of the money. We're just putting it towards production costs. Future growing, possibly. I'd like for us to get to a point where we can launch T-shirts. I think that would be sick. So maybe. And then. Yeah.

Mr. Borkavich (11:59.224)
Well, what's up?

Mr. Borkavich (12:04.438)
Always.

Mr. Borkavich (12:17.037)
That'd be awesome. Yeah, full disclosure, our goal really is just to be self-sustaining as a podcast. So basically if we can get enough coming in to cover the bills of what we're paying to host the podcast, to record on Riverside, to have our lovely editor, Ray, to take care of all the editing, then yeah, that frees us up to do more fun stuff. And we're making progress because you guys are wonderful, but.

Kim Jung Un (12:26.632)
That's right.

Kim Jung Un (12:44.776)
That's right. We're grateful. yes. So and then follow us on Instagram or Facebook. You can engage with us there. John handles the IG. I handle the Facebook. So you can shoot us questions about show episodes. We are not big enough yet that we can't handle that, right? We pretty much get to interact with every DM. And then lastly, remember to catch, get your votes in.

Mr. Borkavich (12:45.611)
you know, it's gonna take a little bit of time.

Mr. Borkavich (12:55.06)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kim Jung Un (13:11.058)
Boys and girls, for what series you want us to do next, as the plane lands on the patristic era, we are looking for a new horizon. And that horizon can be the Great Awakenings in America, it can be the Crusades, or it can be post-patristics rise of the Catholic Church. So get your votes in.

Mr. Borkavich (13:30.636)
right. And there's just get them in. And there's a couple things I want to shout out just because we got some really cool comments this past week. First was Jackson, I know I already commented this, but the CH4C group chat got some some lulls when you referred to Eusebius's stories as DLC because that's hilarious. That's really good. Elliot shared a story or shared that in

Monk Who Likes Social Media (13:52.014)
Mm-hmm.

Mr. Borkavich (13:59.182)
In London, there is a church called St. Bartholomew's and they have a sculpture of him skinless and holding out his skin and the knife that skinned him, which is so freaking cool. That is the most metal thing. I haven't yet, no. But Elliot, thank you for sharing that, dude. That's awesome. Yeah, pull it up. Yeah, LM.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (14:08.163)
yeah, I've seen that.

Kim Jung Un (14:12.882)
That's crazy.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (14:14.178)
Did you look that up? Dude, it is... I'm gonna show you right now.

Kim Jung Un (14:24.178)
Jamie Jamie pull up the tape.

Mr. Borkavich (14:28.179)
LM said he's down for a Mr. Borkovich shirt, which is great. Cause that's the best. He also said that he would love a shirt that said I rolled to attack the fat hippie, which is a deep, a deep cut, but it's that is so freaking sick. That's so cool. Man. That is awesome. And then our, our buddy Anthony shared, and this is a great little historical nugget that I didn't know. He said regarding India, it gets confusing because in the Roman period,

Kim Jung Un (14:36.648)
Dude LM I love

Mr. Borkavich (14:58.189)
Often when people use the term India, it's sometimes used for Ethiopia. So for example, in the historical accounts about Frumentius, the Ethiopian Patrick, Rufinus repeatedly says that Frumentius was enslaved and became a bishop in India rather than Ethiopia. So I didn't fact check that because Anthony sounds like someone who knows what he's talking about. But if so, wild. Thanks for sharing, bro. That's really cool.

Kim Jung Un (15:24.36)
That is good. Look at that.

Mr. Borkavich (15:25.773)
India just can't get away with being called places that it's not. Like what is it about India, man? That's crazy. Anyways, let's get cooking.

Kim Jung Un (15:32.36)
I don't know, man. It's confusing. Super grateful for all of you guys, but yes, they said it couldn't be done.

Mr. Borkavich (15:38.847)
Always.

Mm-hmm. Okay.

Kim Jung Un (15:42.546)
But here we are. Just go right back into my cold oven that I prematurely launched. They said we'd never get here. They doubted. And yet here we are, boys. The final episode of The Adventures of the Apostles.

Mr. Borkavich (15:45.453)
That's great, that's great.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (15:46.22)
haha

Kim Jung Un (15:59.731)
What a long, strange, and honestly disappointing journey it's been.

Kim Jung Un (16:07.209)
So we're going to be talking about Paul tonight, and maybe we'll be disappointed. I don't know. I have no idea. no. In my research, I definitely opened a Bart Ehrman book.

Mr. Borkavich (16:13.677)
Turns out Paul's not real kids. He's just like Santa Claus. There was no Paul.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (16:22.825)
my god.

Mr. Borkavich (16:23.46)
Hey, book's a book, man.

Kim Jung Un (16:24.169)
I will, when the time comes to share my research story, I will and you will all laugh at me and or cry with me because...

Mr. Borkavich (16:31.479)
No, no, no. What I've heard is that Bard is a good historian, he's just not a great commentator, right?

Kim Jung Un (16:37.971)
Well, he's just like an anti-Christian apologist, but he's not a bad guy. He's respectful, yeah, he's nice, yeah.

Mr. Borkavich (16:43.885)
Yeah, that's what saying. he's, just because he researched it doesn't mean it's invalid. It's just his, the conclusions he comes to because of his viewpoints are not always kosher, as they say.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (16:57.9)
My heart went out him a little bit when he was on Colbert and like he's just getting, I think it's with Colbert, and he's getting just annihilated by Colbert, who's a Catholic. yes, and he tries to throw an olive branch to make a joke, Airman does, and he's like, well, he's like, Jesus actually did claim to be divine at one point. He said, remember he says in the gospels,

Mr. Borkavich (17:09.357)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Jung Un (17:11.046)
and smart.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (17:26.182)
I am divine, you are the branches. And Colbert just like dead pans him, just like lets him hang. It's, I was like, this poor guy, he was trying.

Kim Jung Un (17:36.446)
Mmm.

That's rough. Well, Airman doesn't get quoted tonight. He almost did. I almost gave him credit, because he almost had what I was looking for in his book. But alas, we'll get to that later. So as you guys know, we're doing the giveaway. It's going to be wrapping up about the time you're hearing this episode. So if you want to enter the giveaway for Sean McDowell's Fate of the Apostle book, which is what we've been utilizing, go ahead and look

You can comment on Facebook or Instagram that you want to enter. You can share the post. And you can tag anybody in the reel. And as many people as you tag counts as how many entries you have. So we're really excited to do our first giveaway. And you can get a copy of that signed by yours truly, not Sean McDowell. Signed by me. Signed by me. So anyway, this is chapter six, the big guy, Paul. So what do we know about Paul?

Mr. Borkavich (18:25.613)
by Taylor Treadway.

Kim Jung Un (18:36.113)
That's a lot.

Mr. Borkavich (18:37.197)
Not much actually. Fisherman, I believe. Fisherman.

Kim Jung Un (18:40.568)
my, that's his answer now, Fishman. Because he got lucky once.

Mr. Borkavich (18:45.389)
He was well connected as a Pharisee. He was involved in persecuting the church. We believe he was present at Stephen's martyrdom, had the road to Damascus moment, struck blind by Jesus and convicted and called to repent and follow him, kicked it in.

Saudi for a few years learning and then started his ministry and then did a lot of acts.

Kim Jung Un (19:19.653)
He did a lot of acts and he wrote a lot. Paul is by far the most influential human on the Christian church. He's probably, yeah, of all time, he's probably the most, yes, full human, not divine. Thank you, John. So, just just clarify, just make sure.

Mr. Borkavich (19:22.721)
Wrote a lot, wrote big stuff.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (19:32.024)
Maybe of all time.

Mr. Borkavich (19:34.861)
We're talking full human, only human.

Mr. Borkavich (19:43.693)
Just I wanna ask.

Kim Jung Un (19:48.913)
Yes. So aside from Jesus, Paul definitely had the most impact. might be the most well, he might be the most red, not well read. I'm assuming he was well read for, you know, what they had access to, but probably the most red person of all time. Yes. We could spend like 15 podcast episodes just talking about every thing that he did. And then we could spend another 12 years doing podcasts on just what he wrote and talking about it. But we're just going to say

Listen to a good sermon from your pastor on an epistle, get some good edification. But for today, we want to look at what's the tradition claim for Paul.

Mr. Borkavich (20:31.266)
Hmm.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (20:32.43)
I do have one biographical question on Paul that I'm wondering if you know, Taylor, or if either of you guys know. I feel like I've never had total clarity on, and I'm not sure what the internal evidence in the Bible is, but I feel like it's thrown around a lot that Paul actually murdered Christians. Like that's just an assumption that people have a lot, and I'm not totally sure if that's the case.

Kim Jung Un (21:01.877)
That's not scriptually, that's not scriptually supported. You could say that him rounding them up led to murders. So he had a list of people that he was coming to get on his way to Damascus.

Mr. Borkavich (21:02.317)
That's a good question.

Mr. Borkavich (21:15.147)
What explicitly was his role?

Monk Who Likes Social Media (21:19.214)
It's like Grand Inquisitor.

Kim Jung Un (21:19.313)
He was a member of the Sanhedrin.

Mr. Borkavich (21:22.529)
But yeah, mean, was he like a, did he hold like a, was this a political position or was it like some proto law enforcement? Like what did he do?

Kim Jung Un (21:37.117)
Well, no, so the Sanhedrin was basically sending around guys to shut down this newfangled heresy of Christianity. Well, they didn't call it that.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (21:37.582)
to me.

Mr. Borkavich (21:45.205)
Okay, so he was like part of the the Judaic inner circle. Okay, okay.

Kim Jung Un (21:51.399)
Yeah, dude. Yeah, he was he was that he was the fair.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (21:56.002)
And I think the Romans liked it when they policed their own, so he probably had a lot of leeway to kind of do his own thing.

Mr. Borkavich (22:00.897)
Very good point. That's a really good point.

Kim Jung Un (22:01.149)
Yeah, and he was super Hellenized. He was super Hellenized. So like this guy

Mr. Borkavich (22:05.137)
I thought you said he was super hella nice. I was like that's Such an unnecessarily cool way to say that dude. He was super hella nice Alright, California has really changed you, bro

Kim Jung Un (22:11.721)
Yes.

No, it hasn't. So that's still me. So anyway, yeah, that's a question. It's a good question, Tommy. No blood directly on his hands that we know of. But what do we know? What's the tradition claim?

Monk Who Likes Social Media (22:34.446)
For his death?

Kim Jung Un (22:35.401)
for his death.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (22:37.186)
decapitated, I think, in Rome.

Kim Jung Un (22:38.695)
Yep. Decapit. You guys are good. That's it. Decapitated in Rome under Nero. So we have three specific claims we have to investigate, don't we, boys? We have to look at decapitation, we have to look at Rome, and we have to look at under Nero. Now, we looked at Peter, who was also killed in Rome under Nero. And we came to the conclusion that he was most likely not crucified upside down.

Mr. Borkavich (22:39.221)
In Realm Under Nero?

Mr. Borkavich (22:49.121)
Sure do.

Kim Jung Un (23:06.567)
because of some common sense argument. Well, one, that was outside the window of living memory, and then also the common sense of the Romans weren't particularly interested in the last rites of those they were about to publicly execute in shame.

Mr. Borkavich (23:21.815)
Wait, hold on, hold on, one, hold on, one request, please. Just one request.

Kim Jung Un (23:22.665)
Right. hey, boss, this guy actually wants to go upside down. Yeah, just that's fine. Yeah, take it. That's OK. No. But let's see where we land. So the mission work is what we've also been looking at. And we have a ton of scriptural references for mission work. I mean, he went everywhere. He planted churches all over. That was actually his shtick.

He kind of left Peter to handle the Jews. And Paul, interestingly enough, being so Jewish himself was, you get the sense in the narratives that he's kind of like tired of it, right? You read Romans, he's kind of saying like, Jews, stop holding yourself so above everybody because they're grafted into the same thing that we are. He got super bad when Peter,

had communion split up. So Paul was, even though he was like the Pharisee of Pharisees, his Gentiles and church planting and evangelism was his priorities. The last thing I'll say about what we see in scripture that I love is when Paul just shows up to the marketplace and I just picture him like he's got his backpack on, you know, it's a nice day outside. He's just super happy. And he just looks at these philosophers and he goes, you see that's

that empty space that you have, who's that to? And they're like, it's the unknown god. And then Paul proceeds to go, I know him, and I'm going to tell you about him. And I just, I don't know. It's just something likable about him. He's a bold guy. He's a fiery guy. But yes, tradition does claim that he was martyred. He was killed in Rome under Nero. So let's.

Let's talk here as I flip through my notes.

Mr. Borkavich (25:22.157)
So I'm going to say as you're noting right now, I'm nervous about this one because I am, I am, like legitimately, because a lot of the narrative, think, is it 2 Timothy that's considered Paul's last letter? That may or may not, yeah, okay. So I've basically read that under the shadow of

Kim Jung Un (25:25.233)
noting hard.

I think you should be.

Mr. Borkavich (25:52.396)
This is him writing from prison, knowing that he's not likely to get out and that he's probably done so. So I've read a lot and I've heard a lot of pastors preach some of Paul's writings as in the shadow of his martyrdom. So.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (26:12.216)
I think Philippians is like that too. Yeah.

Mr. Borkavich (26:14.571)
Yes. So I'm not going to say that, like, I think it'll hit, it'll hit a little bit more differently if you're like, actually, Paul, you know, went to, went to, you know, Antioch after this where he got married and lived a nice life of just preaching the gospel quietly. Like that would, that would, that would probably hit a little sideways for me. I'm not going to fight it because I've learned that this isn't, this series isn't about me. It's about history.

Kim Jung Un (26:15.753)
Yeah.

Kim Jung Un (26:40.485)
So if you show up, it's funny you mention Second Timothy. So if you show up to the SPL, which is the Society for Biblical Literacy or something like that, that meets after ETS, immediately after, which is the Evangelical Theological Society, which is where a lot of our heroes will attend and present. But the SPL guys are like the way more liberal. And.

You ask them who wrote Second Timothy, and most of them will say, definitely not Paul. So Second Timot, no, they'll say it's contested. And so there's a whole textual argument in there. But we believe it's written by Paul because we inherited a canon from our Church Fathers, didn't we?

Mr. Borkavich (27:13.549)
he was dead.

Mr. Borkavich (27:20.545)
Interesting.

Mr. Borkavich (27:29.581)
Hmm, that is interesting.

Kim Jung Un (27:32.689)
Yes. So, okay. We don't have direct scriptual evidence for Paul. You beat me to it the first part of my notes. Good job. So, yeah. So you got Second Timothy, the end of it. He's definitely, you know, he's in prison in Second Timothy and he's anticipating his own death. So join me, if you will, dear readers, in Second Timothy four.

Second Timothy four and I'll be reading from the ESV. Don't join me if you're driving. That's bad idea.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (28:14.296)
The Lord will protect you. ahead and open up that app.

Kim Jung Un (28:16.896)
gosh. Four, I am the audio version. Four, I am already being poured out as a drink offering in the time of my departure. Verse six, sorry. I love that you're following along. That means a lot.

Mr. Borkavich (28:17.143)
Play the audio version.

Mr. Borkavich (28:25.335)
You didn't say what verse we're starting at. Thank you.

Mr. Borkavich (28:32.109)
I

Kim Jung Un (28:33.651)
For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. I have fought the good fight, I finished the race, I've kept the faith. Henceforth, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day. And not only to me, but also to all who have loved his appearing. So he's, eww, he's pretty convinced it's ending, right?

Mr. Borkavich (29:04.557)
Yeah.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (29:05.294)
Sounds that way.

Kim Jung Un (29:05.737)
Yeah, and that, McDowell says this on page 115. This passage is regarded as one of the most explicit references in the New Testament to Paul's awareness of his looming martyrdom. So, yeah.

Mr. Borkavich (29:19.501)
Sure.

Which to be fair, like, you know, he could be thinking that he's going to die and still not die. this, the world doesn't end if he doesn't die here. It just seems to be pointing in that direction. Right.

Kim Jung Un (29:38.483)
Yeah, exactly.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (29:41.486)
So are you going to talk about the end of acts at all?

Kim Jung Un (29:45.885)
Well, I was looking at the time and I want to get into some other stuff, but we can talk about End of Acts. Go, yeah.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (29:51.118)
I just have a quick comment to make on it that I heard once that Luke and Acts are basically the same length because what you had is like whatever the maximum amount of like paper that you could have on like one scroll essentially, Luke had mapped out both his gospel and the book of Acts like perfectly so he knew exactly what he wanted to fit into each of those.

He used every inch of the page essentially. And the way the book of Acts ends, after he's had his final dispute with the Jews, it says in the last two verses of Acts, and he stayed two full years in his own rented quarters and was welcoming all who came to him, preaching the kingdom of God and teaching concerning the Lord Jesus Christ with all openness unhindered. I think the part that stands out to me is the two full years comment, which means that whoever wrote that

knew what happened after. He ends the story with a two year kind of marker there at the end, but he doesn't say what happens next, which to me seems like a graceful way of just leaving out Paul's martyrdom at the end of

Kim Jung Un (31:10.566)
Yeah, well, it's good you noted that, and you have to ask what was Luke's intention in writing Acts? Is it a biography of Paul? No, it's not.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (31:19.564)
Right. Exactly. Yeah. So it's like not it's not important for his for his story here.

Kim Jung Un (31:26.746)
Right. I'll quote McDowell again. This is McDowell. The purpose of Acts has been accomplished. Luke ends the narrative. Acts is not a biography of Paul, a tribal brief, or a martyrdom account, but a historical account of the spread of the Church from Jerusalem to Rome. So since the gospel has reached Rome, it could now be spread everywhere. So that's a pretty easy answer. I think it's a

I think it's a fair, like, layman question to be like, okay, well, if Luke knew what happens to Paul, why doesn't he write it? Well, it wasn't his goal. It wasn't his goal. And actually, you could even probably say the absence of it proves that Luke did not want to highlight it and take away from the main point of his writing.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (32:04.854)
it wasn't the point of the book,

Mr. Borkavich (32:07.425)
Hmm.

Kim Jung Un (32:18.759)
Now we have a ton of stuff on Paul within the window of living memory, which is the review, who knows what the window of living memory is.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (32:34.008)
Something has to be written within the life, within a lifetime of the event.

Kim Jung Un (32:38.749)
Yeah, yeah, pretty much. Yep. So we have our earliest, his first Clement, which, if you guys remember, is end of first century. And he mentions Paul in chapter five. Because of jealousy and strife, Paul pointed the way to the prize for endurance. Seven times he bore chains. He was sent into exile in stone. He served as a herald in both the East and the West.

and he received the noble reputation for his faith. He taught righteousness to the whole world and came to the limits of the West, bearing his witness before the rulers. And so he was set free from this world and transported up to the holy place, having become the greatest example of endurance. So Clements, like, our Pauley's our boy. And he died. And he gave us a great example as he died.

Mr. Borkavich (33:24.397)
Hmm.

Kim Jung Un (33:34.845)
So that's Clement writing.

in the end of the first century. So that's super, super.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (33:45.09)
and the guy who probably was in Rome too.

Kim Jung Un (33:48.009)
He would have been very familiar with the, you know, the history. I don't even want to say legend, because it's, he would have been very familiar with the history, because if he was not at his execution, he probably knew a ton of people that were, right? If, if the execution happened, if. So, there's McDowell notes that First Clement 6-1 provides a clue as to

Mr. Borkavich (34:04.267)
Yeah, firsthand account.

Kim Jung Un (34:17.449)
when their deaths occur, because remember, we are also investigating the time period, because the Neuronian persecution is a specific claim. yeah, so he says, to these who have conducted themselves in such a holy way, there's been added a great multitude of the elect who have set a superb example among us by the numerous torments and tortures they suffered because of jealousy. And so this is where McDowell's doing his thing.

And he says, that great multitude is almost identical in wording to tacticus, reference to the vast numbers who were killed by Nero. See, that's the kind of stuff that I will never find in my own research. You know what I'm saying? That's so good and specific, and I will never find it. And that's why we're grateful for smart people.

Mr. Borkavich (35:08.139)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. That is full-time research right there. Yeah. That man's using his library card.

Kim Jung Un (35:14.077)
That is full-time research. Taylor almost had a mental breakdown trying to find something today in part-time research after dinner before recording. So.

Yeah. Okay. Ignatius is next. He mentions Paul twice. A letter to the Romans, chapter five. He says, I know who I am and to who I am writing. I am condemned. You have been shown mercy. I am in danger. You are secure. You are a passageway for those slain for God. You are fellow initiates with Paul, the Holy one who received the testimony and proved worthy of all fortune.

When I attain to God, may I be found in his footsteps, the one who mentions you in every epistle in Christ Jesus. sorry, that was letter to the Ephesians. Sorry. That's right, because he's being exaggerated. He's writing to the Church of Ephesus, which some people say that was Paul's favorite church. He was very happy with them.

And so when he says, Paul wrote.

all the time. Okay, so we have Ignatius, we have Clement. Ignatius thinks he was martyred. Clement just says he was martyred. Then we have Polycarp.

Kim Jung Un (36:45.469)
So this what I'm saying, man. It's like everybody, all the big boys from the early church, like early, early church are writing about it. Polycarp says this. And which letter is this in from Polycarp? Polycarp. OK.

Mr. Borkavich (36:53.741)
Yeah.

Kim Jung Un (37:05.737)
He says, therefore, I urge all of you to obey the word of righteousness and to practice all endurance, which you also observe with your own eyes, not only in the most fortunate Ignatius, Zosimus and Rufus, but also in others who lived among you and in Paul himself and the other apostles. Should be convinced that none of them acted in vain, but in faith and righteousness and that they are in the place they deserved with the Lord with whom they also suffered.

For they did not love the present age, they loved the one who died for us and who was raised by God for our sakes. So really early theological claims in this letter that we don't have time to get into, the polycarp saying early on died for us, talking about Jesus, that's, I think, worth noting. But also an elevation of Paul and the apostles.

very early on, another example of that. So there was a clear distinction of authority, and they knew the apostles had authority. But pertinent to our discussion, Polycarp also mentions Paul's death. So Arrhenius wrote his most famous work against heresies. This is Sean McDowell at the end of the second century. So we're going to look at Arrhenius, and this is about

180 or so. And he, or this is Aranius, writing, Matthew also issued a written gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect. While Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome and laying the foundations of the church after their departure, Mark the disciple and interpreter of Peter did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter.

So there's, course, because he says departure, someone's like, well, actually, that just means they left. Well, no, we're not thinking so. He's talking about Peter and Paul were preaching in their departure. So they died. Now, I think right then and there, I'm going to go ahead and just jump to it. We're not jumping to the end, but we're jumping to our first claims.

Kim Jung Un (39:28.049)
which is Paul died in Rome under Neuronean persecution. martyred, yes, martyred in Neurone, under the Neuronean persecution, yes. This is the most amount of evidence that we have for anything that has happened to the apostles.

Mr. Borkavich (39:34.349)
and he was murdered.

Mr. Borkavich (39:40.823)
Yeah, I mean.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (39:46.318)
Mm-hmm.

Mr. Borkavich (39:46.545)
by far.

I was just going to say, that's an interesting thing that there can be a good amount of speculation and some confusion around a lot of the apostles, but Paul is so central. It's like, nope, we all know. We saw him. I saw him die. I saw it. It's a hundred percent. The fact that it's like, yeah, these are like heavyweights.

Kim Jung Un (40:13.597)
Yeah. Yeah.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (40:16.418)
He didn't have to make up a crazy story or...

Mr. Borkavich (40:18.923)
Yeah, it's like polycarp, Irenaeus, Ignatius, Clement, like these are all, these are like all of the heavyweights of the second century and they're all like, yeah, Paul died like 10 days ago. Yeah. So that feels, unless there's some mass conspiracy, it feels pretty reliable.

Kim Jung Un (40:27.591)
Yeah. Yeah, Paul died in Rome. Yep, done.

Kim Jung Un (40:39.209)
Yeah, well within the window of living memory. So I'm very comfortable making that claim. Now, I want you to get a

Monk Who Likes Social Media (40:50.862)
Here comes Bart.

Kim Jung Un (40:52.421)
No, the beheading.

Mr. Borkavich (40:56.845)
was actually crucified. Now what if he was beheaded upside down? They just cut off his legs.

Kim Jung Un (41:04.681)
They did everything to that guy. Don't give him more ideas. So, yeah, now we have to look at like the actual one. And this is where we got very sad and disappointed with Peter. You mean to tell me he wasn't crucified upside down? Do you mean to say that maybe Paul wasn't actually beheaded, Taylor?

Mr. Borkavich (41:28.781)
See, but who cares? Beheading's not cool. Crucified Upside Down is cool, because there's the story, there's the lore. There's no lore in Beheading.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (41:36.588)
my gosh, John.

Kim Jung Un (41:36.711)
We care. We care because this is what we were taught in Sunday school.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (41:42.178)
Well yeah, that's why I'm curious why were we taught that? Where do we get the idea that he was beheaded?

Kim Jung Un (41:46.363)
I got you, baby. And this is where Taylor's research almost destroyed him. There's a little thing called the Axe of Paul. I have had a- a- Axe. Axe. A-C-T-S. I had- man, I'm so-

Mr. Borkavich (41:46.797)
what I'm saying.

Mr. Borkavich (41:57.646)
The AXE of Paul?

Mr. Borkavich (42:03.467)
Okay, okay, sorry.

Kim Jung Un (42:15.657)
People are like, yeah, Taylor, no wonder you had problems researching.

All right, McDowell references, he talks about Acts of Paul, that's where the first beheading is. Acts of Paul is mostly late first century, second century, is the dating. Now you're like, okay, well, where's the difficulty come in? I cannot exaggerate, and any of our listeners that have decided to take us up on our encouragement to go read some of the pseudepigraphical,

Gnostic writings. You would have easily found Acts of Andrew, Acts of Peter. What was it, the Acts of, or the Martyrdom of Bartholomew, or Acts of Bartholomew, the one we read last week?

Mr. Borkavich (43:10.573)
thought it was the X.

Kim Jung Un (43:12.457)
Yeah, Axe of Bartholomew. You would have easily found those. Shout out New Advent. Anywhere. Let me tell you guys, the Axe of Paul, not so. Particularly, there is one story that McDowell references, and if I ever see him and get to shake his hand in person, I'm kind of hoping he's going to be at ETS this year. You know, just hoping.

I'm gonna give him a hard time that he sent me on this wild goose chase. He mentions just in passing. Let me, I'm gonna just read the quote.

Kim Jung Un (44:03.763)
Gosh, I can't find the quote. Basically, he just throws out quickly that there's a story in the Acts of Paul about Paul baptizing a lion.

Mr. Borkavich (44:18.618)
Let's go.

Kim Jung Un (44:19.433)
And I'm like, heck yeah, dude. I stopped reading, McDowell immediately went straight, I went straight to open up Acts of Paul and start reading. Oh, here's the quote. Acts of Paul clearly does contain some legendary material though, such as Paul baptizing a lion. And then he lists a couple other examples. But I went straight to trying to find this and for 45 minutes.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (44:26.158)
Hmph.

Kim Jung Un (44:48.457)
And gotta remember, I'm almost done with my M.Diff.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (44:49.71)
Is this the acts of Paul and Thecla?

Kim Jung Un (44:53.949)
That was another part of it. It's also referred to as that, and it has different names, and Thecla is a whole nother legendary character, depending on which manuscript you're reading, Paul's hardly in it, and it is just Thecla, which is this lady who gets martyred, and the beasts attack her. That's a whole nother wild story. But I am trying, I tried so hard to find this, and it went from

Mr. Borkavich (45:17.441)
Wow.

Kim Jung Un (45:23.721)
Okay, what's his source? Well, he just says Axe of Paul 14. So I go to that, I'm like Googling Axe of Paul, Axe of Paul. Also Google's trying to be like, did you mean Axe? Did you mean Axe of the Apostles? And they just keep throwing that at me.

Mr. Borkavich (45:38.541)
You

Monk Who Likes Social Media (45:39.862)
Yeah, I had that thought.

Kim Jung Un (45:42.385)
So, okay, so I'm like, all right, I actually have to turn on my research brain. You know, I'm almost done with an M.Div, so I've had to research a little bit in my life. I go to our library, our website, Gateway's library website, and now I'm looking at pseudepigraphical, like, collections, and I'm ripping through the ones that we have digital at light speed, trying to find axipal, axipal, and all of them.

have this same account that was available on earlychurchwritings.com, which does not have the lion's story. And so not only, I found it on Google pretty quickly, but it didn't have the lion's story. So I'm ripping through trying to find this. This is probably at about minute 20. And I get to, I finally get to a Bart Ehrman book and I'm like, am I about to like thank the Lord for Bart Ehrman?

Mr. Borkavich (46:21.901)
Mm.

Kim Jung Un (46:42.939)
Is that what's about to happen? And Stinkin Bart Ehrman does the same thing McDowell does and says, some of the manuscripts have this. Anyway, here's the rest of the different, here's the manuscript you already found, Taylor. And he even has a little parentheses in his. He goes, some manuscripts, which we are not referencing here, have the story of Paul baptizing a lion.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (46:50.36)
Like no source.

Mr. Borkavich (47:12.973)
I think there's just private manuscripts that we're just not allowed to read. They're for the scholars.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (47:16.91)
Yeah, I'm reading I'm reading a summary of this this is so hilarious listen to this Upon coming out of the water the lion shakes the water out of its mane turns to Paul and says grace be with you Paul replied and also with you

Kim Jung Un (47:31.433)
Tommy, before you get to it, I found something that we can read. So on peshertechnique.infinitesolutions.com.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (47:37.313)
Okay, okay.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (47:46.971)
my gosh, dude, you need to call your boy and get your computer scanned for viruses. Yeah.

Kim Jung Un (47:50.569)
Copyright, copyright, listen, copyright 2005 slash, 2005 slash 2007, Dr. Barbara Tearing.

Mr. Borkavich (47:52.139)
I didn't know you had to go to the dark web for this.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (47:57.88)
Tor forward slash Tristan.

Mr. Borkavich (48:00.737)
fine.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (48:03.16)
You

Mr. Borkavich (48:08.267)
Alright, alright. Shut up, Barb.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (48:08.558)
Shout out, Barbara.

Kim Jung Un (48:10.098)
Shout out Dr. T.

Mr. Borkavich (48:12.791)
Do we know anything about Dr. Barbara? I got you, I got you. Spell, spell T-ring for me. Just spell it.

Kim Jung Un (48:15.281)
I didn't have time to research it, because it took all my research time finding this. She's got it. She's got it. She's got it pulled from T-H-I-E-R-I-N-G. Stop making me spell, please.

Mr. Borkavich (48:30.797)
You're fine. You did a great job.

Kim Jung Un (48:32.839)
that time. All right. Hennecke volume two is where she is pulling this from. And then I went to try to find that from our website and I think it's written in German. So I have no idea if Turing translated this from German. So here we go. This is when Paul was walking towards Jericho. There came a great and terrible lion out of the valley of the burying ground. But when I finished praying, the beast had cast himself at my feet.

I was filled with the spirit and looked upon him and said to him, lion, what do you want? But he said, I wish to be baptized. I glorified God who had given speech to the beast in salvation to his servant. Now there was a great river in that place and I went down into it. And then she does not record the prayer. She just does a parentheses saying he offered her a prayer referring to Daniel in the lion's den.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (49:10.36)
baseline

Kim Jung Un (49:30.759)
When I had prayed thus, I took the lion by his mane and in the name of Jesus Christ immersed him three times. And then here's your quote, Thomas. And when he came up out of the water, he shook out his mane and said to me, grace be with you. And I said to him, and likewise with you. And the lion ran off to the country rejoicing. A lioness met him and he did not yield himself to her, but ran off.

It's a Chastelion.

Mr. Borkavich (50:01.174)
and did not yield himself to her.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (50:03.266)
Yeah, he's like, get away from me, I'm a man of God. I'm a lion of God, you harlot.

Kim Jung Un (50:06.867)
So.

Mr. Borkavich (50:08.941)
You

Real son of Mufasa over here.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (50:14.19)
Yeah.

Kim Jung Un (50:14.377)
converted to celibacy. I know. So shout out Dr. Barbara Tearing. Did you find anything on her, John?

Monk Who Likes Social Media (50:16.974)
You

It's so good.

This thing

Mr. Borkavich (50:24.543)
I did. Apparently she's actually very controversial. So she's, she's very, she, she seems like she had quite a splash. She was an Australian historian, theologian and exegete, but sure. Her kind of claim to fame is that she developed a technique for reinterpreting the New Testament stories through the Dead Sea Scrolls, which led to her making

Kim Jung Un (50:28.594)
Really?

Mr. Borkavich (50:53.363)
some really absurd and very unliked interpretations of the scriptures. And there's a quote from N.T. Wright from 1993 where he said, it is safe to say that no serious scholar has given this elaborate and fantastic theory any credence whatsoever. So yeah.

Kim Jung Un (51:14.345)
saying. He got NT right just slaughtering you publicly. He probably did something wrong. So.

Mr. Borkavich (51:19.469)
Yeah, in the 90s, bro.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (51:21.144)
Taylor, this might bring you a little relief as to why you couldn't find it. This thing that I'm reading says that that story comes from the appendix to the Acts of Paul.

Mr. Borkavich (51:29.997)
interesting.

Kim Jung Un (51:31.463)
Yeah, and it's only in like one Coptic manuscript or something. But that's the same source, my friends, that the beheading comes from. But let us turn.

Mr. Borkavich (51:36.845)
That is really interesting.

Kim Jung Un (51:46.697)
to the story of the beheading.

Man, I scrolled, I had my page set up and then in my frenzy trying to find the stupid lion story. I can find it. Control F is our friend.

Kim Jung Un (52:08.837)
Okay, here we go. This is super interesting. so we I'm going to let you guys make this

Kim Jung Un (52:16.839)
this claim, or not claim, but a revelation, if you will. I'm just going to start reading. So this is Acts of Paul, the main fragments that we have translated that are not difficult to find. And a certain Patroclus, a cupbearer of Caesar, came at even unto the Grange, and not being able, because of the press, to enter into Paul.

He sat at a high window and listened to him teaching the word of God. You guys see where we're going?

But whereas the evil devil envied the love of the brethren, Patroclus fell down from the window and died, and forthwith it was told unto Nero. But Paul, perceiving it by the Spirit, said, Men and brethren, the evil one hath gained occasion to tempt you. Go out of the house, and ye shall find a lad fallen from the height, and now ready to give up the ghost. Take him up, and bring him hither to me.

And they went and brought him. And when the people saw it, they were troubled. But Paul said, now, brethren, let your faith appear. Come, all of you, and let us weep unto our Lord Jesus Christ, that this lad may live, and we continue in quietness. And when all had lamented, the lad received his spirit again, and they set him on a beast and sent him back alive, together with the rest that were of Caesar's household.

So we've got some behind the scenes narrative, right?

Mr. Borkavich (53:57.335)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Jung Un (53:58.152)
I don't... Can you guys hear that beeping?

Monk Who Likes Social Media (54:00.504)
Yeah.

Kim Jung Un (54:01.917)
I don't know what that is.

Mr. Borkavich (54:02.369)
Brandy putting something in the microwave.

Kim Jung Un (54:05.641)
Can you close the windows, Brandy?

it stopped. It's probably a neighbor's fire alarm or something. Nothing to worry about. Not big deal. OK, now we return. But Nero, when he'd heard of the death of Patroclus, was sore grieved. And when he came in from the bath, which was unnecessary detail, he commanded another. Yeah, he commanded another. Yeah.

Mr. Borkavich (54:14.049)
Hmm.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (54:14.382)
So.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (54:30.03)
He was just on the toilet just so bummed out dude. Yeah, he's like dang it. I'm so mad as soon as I'm done in here. It's over

Mr. Borkavich (54:32.073)
F3 finished as number two.

Mr. Borkavich (54:41.319)
As I finish this dump, I'm gonna...

Kim Jung Un (54:43.699)
So basically what this is saying, when Patroclus died, they send somebody to Caesar. And Caesar's sad, Nero being Caesar. But his servants told him, saying, Caesar, Patroclus liveth and standeth at the table. And Caesar, hearing that Patroclus lived, was affrighted and would not go in. But when he went in, he saw Patroclus and was beside himself and said, Patrocist, livest thou? And he said, I live Caesar. And he said,

Who is he that made thee to live? And the lad full of the mind of faith said, Jesus Christ, the King of the ages. And Caesar was troubled and said, shall he then be King of the ages and overthrow all kingdoms? Patroclath saith unto him, yay, he overthroweth all kingdoms and he alone shall be forever. And there shall be no kingdom that shall escape him. And he smote him on the face and said,

Patroclus, art thou also a soldier of that king? And he said, Yea, Lord Caesar, for he raised me when I was dead. And Bersabas, justice of the broad feet, and Uriah in the Cappadocian, and Festus the Galatians, Caesar's chief men, said, We also are soldiers of the King of Ages. And he shut them up in prison, having grievously tormented them, whom he loved much, and commanded the soldiers of the great king to be sought out, and set forth a decree to this effect.

that all were found to be Christians and soldiers of Christ should be slain.

Mr. Borkavich (56:15.373)
Hmm.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (56:17.336)
So I've got kind of competing thoughts in my mind. My general thought is this just obviously sounds like a warmed over version of what happens in Troas with someone of a different name. You know, where Acts 20, somebody falls out of a window, a boy falls out of a window, Paul raises him to life. This is supposedly happening now in Rome with someone of a different name. It just, to me, I

I'm gonna let my skepticism kind of run wild and go, this sounds like somebody had heard part of the story and they're making it up. But then the part that makes it sound a little bit more verifiable is it lists all the names of all those soldiers.

Mr. Borkavich (56:56.405)
Hmm.

Kim Jung Un (57:04.217)
It goes back to the same thing we've been repeating, which is the legend, just because something is legendary and has that in it does not mean it's devoid of historicity. And so there might be this legend developing around Patroclus, right? Who fell and was resurrected and now he serves Jesus and all the people that were there serve Jesus now. And then Nero kills them.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (57:18.712)
Yeah, that's good. That's good.

Mr. Borkavich (57:20.407)
Hmm, that makes sense.

Kim Jung Un (57:33.959)
And then let me jump to the beheading.

So they grab, Caesar finally gets Paul and then you jump to the end of three here and it says, and when Caesar heard that he commanded all the prisoners to be burned with fire, but Paul to be beheaded after the law of the Romans.

So our source for Paul being beheaded seems to have some crazy stuff in it. But it also has, like you said, some historical detail. So what do you do with that? What do we do with that? We don't have anything like that in Peter being crucified upside down. That was written well out of the window of living memory. If you remember, the Acts of Paul is end of second century, so it's a lot closer.

Mr. Borkavich (58:27.692)
Sure.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (58:28.014)
Well, the crazy stuff is actually something that actually happened just at another time. So if it happened again, fine. But it's different than like a talking dog ran in the room and proclaimed Christ kind of thing. I really like

Kim Jung Un (58:48.034)
The crazy stuff in this is the lion talking and wanting to be baptized.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (58:52.32)
No, I guess. I see. I see what you're saying. Yeah. But that was an appendix, so maybe it was written later.

Kim Jung Un (58:55.432)
Mm-hmm.

Mr. Borkavich (59:00.109)
But, okay, here's my thought here. The reason I would naturally be suspicious of Peter being crucified upside down is because, like we said in the beginning,

Like the lore behind it is inspiring, but it's not reasonable. Paul being beheaded sounds reasonable because he was a Roman citizen and that's what you do. Yeah.

Kim Jung Un (59:29.585)
which is exactly what the text says. All the other people that weren't Roman citizens, Nero's like, and get the butane. But for...

Mr. Borkavich (59:38.509)
Mm-hmm.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (59:39.32)
I really like your point about how legends work and how there's truth in them because we also have internal evidence in the scriptures that would be the right recipe for this. So in the end of Philippians, Paul writing at end of his life is greeting the church in Philippi and he says, also the people in Caesar's household say hi, especially them, they say hi. So he had very likely converts

Kim Jung Un (01:00:03.634)
Yeah.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (01:00:08.76)
who worked with Caesar. So I could see a scenario where like, well, did the boy falling out of the window thing happen again? Maybe, maybe not. But people, maybe Nero having an encounter with people who were close to him and he finds out, whoa, you're saying Christ is Lord? Excuse me? No, you know, like that seems extremely plausible.

Kim Jung Un (01:00:31.751)
That is exactly right. And that is why I am so happy to put a bow on our whole series with a dub. So Paul was in Rome, highest possible probability. Martyrdom, very probably true is how McDowell ranks it. Martyrdom during reign of Nero.

Mr. Borkavich (01:00:40.973)
Hmm, with a dub. A dub for tradition.

Kim Jung Un (01:01:00.189)
more probable than not. And beheading of Paul, more probable than not. We finished and we did not plan, I did not plan it like this, but the church tradition, got one right now.

Mr. Borkavich (01:01:06.125)
Let's go, four for four baby, ha ha!

Monk Who Likes Social Media (01:01:06.542)
Thanks for

Monk Who Likes Social Media (01:01:15.062)
Nice. We up!

Mr. Borkavich (01:01:15.341)
Alright, alright. Tune in next week as we talk about how Polycarp was never really killed. Right Taylor?

Monk Who Likes Social Media (01:01:21.838)
Kim Jung Un (01:01:23.273)
no. I wouldn't dare. That's so meh. No, not a no. I don't want to be a textual critic anymore.

Mr. Borkavich (01:01:27.661)
This is just the beginning. is just the beginning. Ignatius, not martyred. Perpetual Felicity, not martyred. Also.

Kim Jung Un (01:01:40.253)
That sounds like, don't want, the word blasphemous is too strong, but the word disrespectful is not strong enough.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (01:01:45.134)
Yeah.

Flanders

Mr. Borkavich (01:01:49.709)
Slanders is good. Yes, Slanders is really good.

Kim Jung Un (01:01:50.931)
Did you guys do an episode on Perpetua and Felicity? Okay, I might have to go back and listen to it.

Mr. Borkavich (01:01:54.264)
We did. Tommy did that one. We did a of ladies and a pair of guys. Who were the guys, Thomas? That's right. That's right. And those were both early martyrs, weren't they? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we've done, and then Polycarp was one of the first episodes we ever did. That was like our third episode.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (01:01:54.36)
Yes.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (01:02:03.822)
Sergius and Bacchus.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (01:02:11.342)
Pretty early.

Kim Jung Un (01:02:18.684)
Martyrdom of Polycarp is horrific. But I love it when he says, what's the emperor? What's he trying to get him to say? Not the emperor, but you know, like, yeah, he's like, say away with the atheist. And Polycarp's like, away with the atheist. Can I go now? And then it's like, not enough for him. Yeah, man, we don't have time to get into that and go back and listen to that, but.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (01:02:29.482)
Away with the atheists.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (01:02:37.848)
Hmm

Mr. Borkavich (01:02:44.609)
Yeah. I just love one of the things I still remember from that episode, cause Thomas was the one who led it was just the, the smell of bread after he had been, burned just like this wafting bakery smell that just emanated from his place of execution. Like, yeah, they were like, crap, dude, we didn't know we had a bread guy. So yeah, amazing. All right. Well, good stuff, Taylor.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (01:03:01.454)
That's when they knew they messed up.

Kim Jung Un (01:03:12.392)
But there you have it, folks. Thanks, man. This was a fun series.

Mr. Borkavich (01:03:14.241)
Good job, man. Minus that one really good episode that I did, you did a good job.

Kim Jung Un (01:03:20.392)
You did a good job when you did your episode.

Mr. Borkavich (01:03:24.363)
No, I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm tooting my horn. Yeah, that was fun. You rocked this series, man. You did a good job. All right. Now I think we can officially say, ladies and gentlemen, Taylor Treadway is a part of our podcast.

Kim Jung Un (01:03:26.598)
Yeah,

Thanks.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (01:03:38.156)
Hey, you made it through the crucible, big dog. Yeah, welcome.

Kim Jung Un (01:03:41.544)
What?

Mr. Borkavich (01:03:43.297)
You didn't know that was all a tryout. Now Thomas and I have to invite you to the real group chat.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (01:03:48.994)
Welcome, yeah. New chat.

Kim Jung Un (01:03:49.552)
I hate this. I don't like this joke. I'm over this joke.

Mr. Borkavich (01:03:56.247)
JK, JK, even with the big dogs.

Kim Jung Un (01:03:58.586)
I know dude, I've been on for like eight months now.

Mr. Borkavich (01:04:01.454)
That's crazy. No, not eight months, really?

Kim Jung Un (01:04:04.338)
think so. Well, someone can check.

Mr. Borkavich (01:04:09.133)
Alright, well, we were talking about this earlier. Gosh. We were talking about this earlier, but we're going to... So, as of today, so today, I.e. whenever this episode is dropping, so that'd be Tuesday, so today's Thursday, Wednesday. I don't know. Whatever day on the 20-something of October, this day is going to be the last day of voting for the new series. So by midnight tonight, we were going to...

Kim Jung Un (01:04:09.992)
LM, check for me, bro.

Mr. Borkavich (01:04:38.795)
cap it off, tally the votes, and we're going to pick. We're going to be kind of bouncing around for the next few weeks. We're going to do probably a Halloween themed episode for the end of October. We're going to do an episode probably on the pilgrims for Thanksgiving, kind of a Nativity themed for Christmas. And then we'll probably take a couple of weeks off. And then we'll be back with our new series.

Kim Jung Un (01:04:55.681)
Thanks.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (01:05:08.718)
I wanna do one on Boniface and the first Christmas tree.

Mr. Borkavich (01:05:08.94)
Stay tuned.

Mr. Borkavich (01:05:13.189)
that's a good one. I like that. Okay. All right. That'd be fun. All right, gang. Well, thanks so much for listening. We love you guys a lot. As always, feel free to leave us a kind review, a nice little five star hit follow on Spotify or wherever you listen. And we'll be back next week with more goodness.

Kim Jung Un (01:05:14.056)
There you go.

Kim Jung Un (01:05:32.563)
Bye bye.

Monk Who Likes Social Media (01:05:32.632)
bless you.