100. Heresies, Heresies, Heresies: What Makes a Heresy?

From Arianism to Modalism, Nestorianism to Docetism, we've hit our fair share of heresies on this show. 

(By talking about them, not by committing them, hopefully)

So for this week's episode, we'll be discussing how the church has historically dealt with the "h-word." We'll also consider, from our own ministry perspectives, the optimal way to address heresy in a modern context. 

Also, Taylor learns something new about Colorado! And we discuss whether Estes Park is real or whether it's secretly a region in Narnia. 

Also also, it did not register at all for us that this was our 100th episode. We wish we had mentioned it, or bought a cake or something. 100 episodes! What a cool thing. Thanks for being here, gang. 

Let us know in the comments: how do you define heresy? 

Buy us a coffee: https://buymeacoffee.com/chumphistory

Transcript

Mr. Borkavich (00:00.793)
Hey everybody, welcome to Church History for Chumps. My name is John Simon, or as they call me around these parts, the Tucson televangelist. I'm here with Taylor, AKA Ethiopia's Most Wanted, and of course Estes Park's finest, Thomas Do Well. Boys, how we doin'?

Theotokos Appreciator (00:14.894)
Kid brother. my gosh. Wow. Wow. Wow.

Kim Jung Un (00:16.761)
Where's Estes Park?

Mr. Borkavich (00:22.991)
This is what happens. You live in California, you get your little bubble, you never leave, and then you pretend the rest of world doesn't exist. You forget where you came from. And you forget where Thomas came from, which is even worse.

Kim Jung Un (00:34.531)
It's Estes Park in Tucson.

Theotokos Appreciator (00:37.545)
my gosh. Google, just Google image search Estes Park really quick.

Mr. Borkavich (00:37.723)
That's maybe the worst thing I've ever said.

Kim Jung Un (00:44.005)
How do you spell it? Estes. Estes Park Catholic Church.

Mr. Borkavich (00:45.563)
Dude, Estes Park was a clue in a crossword puzzle that I got the other day Tommy, and I could feel your radiance shining on me. It was really nice.

Theotokos Appreciator (00:46.196)
my god.

Theotokos Appreciator (00:54.094)
You nailed it. You know, I know you nailed it.

Kim Jung Un (00:55.717)
Is it Our Lady of the Mountain's Catholic Church in Big Thompson, on Big Thompson Ave? Okay, all I want to do is live on Big Thompson Ave.

Theotokos Appreciator (01:00.61)
That's a beautiful church. That's a beautiful church.

Theotokos Appreciator (01:08.726)
Yeah, dude. You do want to live on Big Thompson F.

Mr. Borkavich (01:10.075)
you

So Tommy, what is the lore behind your family in Estes Park, which for the uninitiated is a beautiful part of Colorado. But yeah, what's the lore behind that?

Theotokos Appreciator (01:20.622)
Yeah.

It's where my dad grew up, which is kind of insane because it's one of the most beautiful places on earth, like objectively. You have to drive through this town called Estes Park to get into the eastern side of Rocky Mountain National Park. And it's just unbelievably beautiful. And it's pretty touristy now, but because of how it's kind of surrounded by the park.

Mr. Borkavich (01:40.411)
Hmm.

Theotokos Appreciator (01:51.274)
It can't grow too big, it's just a beautiful place that I've spent a lot of time in. My grandma still lives there to this day. And yeah, we love it. Special place in my heart.

Mr. Borkavich (02:03.193)
Awesome. Yeah.

Kim Jung Un (02:04.543)
every one of these photos is amazing.

Theotokos Appreciator (02:08.886)
Yep. so you'll like this as the movie buff if you didn't know this, John. So the Stanley Hotel, which is a really famous, beautiful hotel there is Stephen King's inspiration for the hotel on The Shining.

Kim Jung Un (02:09.219)
Like this ever, wow.

Mr. Borkavich (02:23.311)
Let's go. That's, dude, actually that is so interesting. Okay. As a, as not, as not even a movie head, as a, as a Stephen King guy, a lot of, so he grew up in Maine. So a lot of his stories take place all throughout like the Northeast, but usually in Maine. So I was always so curious as to why the Shining took place in Colorado. And now it makes sense. It was actually based on a true location. Look at that. Love that.

Love that. Yeah.

Kim Jung Un (02:53.551)
Dude, I'm looking at some Marriott's

Mr. Borkavich (02:58.255)
You're planning your next trip, huh Tay?

Kim Jung Un (03:01.449)
I gotta figure out a way Gateway probably needs to go recruit in Estes Park

Mr. Borkavich (03:06.267)
Yeah, right after they finish for that recruit job in the Bahamas in a couple months, right? Hey, the Bahamans need doctrine and I guess they should start with Gateway. So, yeah.

Kim Jung Un (03:11.117)
I know, yeah, exactly.

Kim Jung Un (03:16.869)
That's right. Yeah, I'm actually I'm going to Florida in a few days. Orlando.

Mr. Borkavich (03:24.797)
what part?

Should we have anyone from Chump Nation kind of hit you up?

Kim Jung Un (03:32.387)
Well, when this airs, I will actually be on my way to Alabama, and I'm telling you what, this is an open invitation. If you live in Huntsville, Alabama, and you hear this on Monday or Tuesday, hit me up. We'll go, we'll get some food or something.

Mr. Borkavich (03:38.299)
Hmm.

Mr. Borkavich (03:50.19)
actually just heard a comedian talk about Huntsville and how he said that because it's in Alabama it gets a terrible rap but Huntsville is apparently a very like a like there's a lot of researchers a lot of scientists there so it's a very like educated place but of course they get crapped on because they're all bad everybody's so dumb so I don't know yeah might have some smarty pants out there Taylor

Kim Jung Un (04:14.295)
Hmm, there's a lot of anti-south rhetoric going around the world.

Mr. Borkavich (04:18.699)
Awful, awful stuff. Yeah. Yeah, my family's from the South. I mean, I'm here for it. I'm here to support the South through all of its, you know, all this slander happening. It's awful.

Kim Jung Un (04:20.6)
Right.

Kim Jung Un (04:29.157)
It's ups and downs.

Mr. Borkavich (04:32.795)
Yeah, yeah, you know. Have you guys, when's the last time you guys were in the South? I was in the South. I was in Alabama around this time last year for a wedding and it was really, it was delightful. I really enjoyed it. Food was great. People are friendly. It was just like the end of fall. So all the trees were still kind of like orange-leaved and stuff. It was great. I loved it. I would go back.

Kim Jung Un (04:35.833)
Yep.

Kim Jung Un (04:54.627)
Well, I was in Georgia like last month in South Atlanta and people are so nice in the South. I I'm like sitting at Starbucks working on homework, you know, in between whatever and people walk in the door, make eye contact with me and then like everybody stops and goes, hey, how you doing? Hey, how you doing? Hey, how you doing?

Mr. Borkavich (05:01.179)
Mmm.

Mr. Borkavich (05:20.965)
Yeah, I like it. I like it. I don't know if it's entirely authentic. I don't know if it's real, but I like it. You know, it makes me feel warm. I enjoy it.

Kim Jung Un (05:22.339)
Yeah.

Kim Jung Un (05:29.165)
Life, felt real.

Mr. Borkavich (05:34.209)
from the southwest. we nice in Arizona?

Kim Jung Un (05:38.205)
Absolutely not. I can tell you in

Mr. Borkavich (05:40.091)
hahahaha

Theotokos Appreciator (05:43.278)
We're nicer than other places. I've been to places where, I mean, if you, as an Arizonan are traveling and you notice that people seem rude, that means that Arizona is at least nicer than that place.

Kim Jung Un (05:51.461)
That's true.

Mr. Borkavich (05:54.62)
Fair, yeah. I don't think California's nice.

Kim Jung Un (05:56.762)
Tommy, have you been to the South? Okay, let Tommy answer and then I'm gonna respond to that.

Theotokos Appreciator (06:07.434)
actually more recently, my most extended time in the South is I went to a conference out in Bama. but it was short, didn't get to explore ton. I don't know if you would consider, I guess North Carolina in some books would be considered the South, right? So I've spent.

Mr. Borkavich (06:26.351)
Yeah, yeah, I'd consider it. They got the accent still.

Theotokos Appreciator (06:29.666)
Yeah, I spent some time in North Carolina. And yeah, I like it. I love the South.

Kim Jung Un (06:37.841)
yeah, so first off, when I got out here to the Inland Empire and started walking around and I realized people are much nicer here than they are in Arizona. Much nicer out here. But I will say this, I was in San Francisco last week and I was, dude.

Mr. Borkavich (06:37.883)
Alright Taylor, why don't you get defensive real quick.

Mr. Borkavich (06:58.405)
Hmm.

Kim Jung Un (07:05.025)
I was all over the Bay. I went everywhere in the Bay. I went north, south, east, west. I did not go inside of the Bay. So I can't speak to the merpeople. But other than that, I went everywhere and bro, this greet, store, like the people that work in the stores don't even, you walk in and they just like stare at you till you get to the register. And then they just mumbled. This was like pretty consistent.

Mr. Borkavich (07:20.667)
you

Mr. Borkavich (07:31.803)
Hmm.

Kim Jung Un (07:34.649)
and they just mumble.

Theotokos Appreciator (07:34.798)
They clocked you, they clocked you bro. They're like, that is a straight white conservative male if I've ever seen one.

Mr. Borkavich (07:35.077)
But I feel like-

Kim Jung Un (07:43.173)
maybe I should have had some purple hair. I don't have any purple hair. I don't even have any hair to dye purple.

Mr. Borkavich (07:53.468)
I can't imagine San Francisco to be the friendliest place in the world. But I just think, I mean, you live in like the outskirts of LA, you know? Also, I really hate the name Inland Empire. I just, I don't know. It bothers me. What are you the empire of? You're just inland. That's fine.

Kim Jung Un (08:06.765)
Why?

Kim Jung Un (08:12.005)
There's 10 million people in the Inland Empire.

Mr. Borkavich (08:17.211)
That's so many people, that's crazy.

Kim Jung Un (08:18.457)
Compare, yeah, yeah dude. Compare that to, I don't know, Rome? Let's march, fools.

Kim Jung Un (08:28.581)
That's what I thought. That's what I thought.

Mr. Borkavich (08:30.971)
boy. Alright. Well, should we get to the meat and potatoes, boys? We got an interesting episode today.

Kim Jung Un (08:36.911)
no, hey, we lost John.

Theotokos Appreciator (08:40.258)
He's been a little choppy.

Kim Jung Un (08:42.159)
That's alright. Tommy, how you doing, man? I see you got the collar on. You're a hard-working pastor.

Theotokos Appreciator (08:50.84)
Thanks man, just trying to love God and love my people.

Kim Jung Un (08:55.013)
That's right. Glorify God. Well, I have exciting news. We voted on Sunday to change our bylaws. our church is officially elder led.

Theotokos Appreciator (08:57.09)
How's things going at your church?

Theotokos Appreciator (09:09.134)
really? Good. Awesome.

Kim Jung Un (09:10.339)
Yeah, it was a, did a little charismatic victory run up and down the aisle.

Theotokos Appreciator (09:18.318)
I'm assuming that people are excited about that if they voted to change the bylaws.

Kim Jung Un (09:22.533)
Yeah, yeah, it was 87 % in favor, so. Yeah, so it was really good. Am I? Hi, John.

Mr. Borkavich (09:29.339)
Am I back? All right, I'm back. Hey guys, hey. I heard every second of that conversation too, which is what bummed me out.

Theotokos Appreciator (09:30.786)
Yep. Hi, John. Welcome back.

Kim Jung Un (09:39.205)
Mmm.

Mr. Borkavich (09:40.655)
I just couldn't say anything, which was really hard. I mean, not that I had anything to say negatively. I'm excited that you have a church that's elder led now. That's, that's, that's very exciting. Yeah.

Kim Jung Un (09:48.221)
Thanks, man. Now I just need to get I need to get the Baptist to start calling the director of missions Bishop and then I can die happy

Theotokos Appreciator (09:56.11)
Yeah, that was my next question is when you get this ships You guys are on the pipeline It's hilarious

Kim Jung Un (09:58.918)
When do get our bishops? I know. Give me time. Give me time. I already call the director of missions. I do joke with them, the ones that are chill when I see him at events. I'm like, it's, it's Bishop Victor. He's out in OC and dude, he's a good guy. He's a bishop, man. Victor.

Theotokos Appreciator (10:16.686)
Yeah.

Theotokos Appreciator (10:21.006)
I love calling people bishops that aren't one. It's kind of funny.

Kim Jung Un (10:24.998)
It's right. I love it. Yes.

Theotokos Appreciator (10:29.4)
Huh, speaking of bishops, today our topic is heresies. No, I'm just joking.

Mr. Borkavich (10:34.619)
Yeah, no, I'm psyched about this because we've, we, mean, for the, for the, for the OG chump nation, we've been talking about heresies really since we got started. We did a, we did a series called Hefty Heresies back in the day where we went through kind of the historical origin of a lot of the, the big, I say like the big four, we, did the big four for a while, but we also kind of hopped and skipped around too.

so yeah, one question that we've never really answered is what really qualifies a heresy. And then I figured it'd be cool to have kind of a more practical conversation of how do you engage the topic of heresy in a day and age like this? Like, what do you do if you have a dude in your church who's just like, yeah, man, I mean, I don't know. I, I think that, I don't, I don't know if I really get Jesus being a person or something like that.

Like there's gotta be so much adapting, I feel like we have to do to how we respond to heresies because back in the day to be a heretic was like, I am completely separating myself from the church. Anyways, I'm getting ahead of myself. So let's kinda, we're gonna read off a few quotes of just how certain individuals throughout church history have gone on to define heresy. Before we do that, I'm gonna put both of you guys on the spot. Taylor first.

Taylor, how would you, in your context as a Baptist with a very loose grasp of doctrine, how would you define... How would you define what a heresy is?

Kim Jung Un (12:07.653)
my...

Theotokos Appreciator (12:09.218)
my

Kim Jung Un (12:11.833)
Well, I'll keep it really simple. This is like simpletons definition. I'm sure there's holes in it. I think anything that goes against Nicaea, like if you can't read in good conscience, the Nicene Creed 381, if you can't read that in good conscience, I think you're probably in a very dangerous spot.

And it's like, well, Taylor, why not scripture? Well, because scripture, you know, there's a million interpretations of scripture for all these different, that's why we have so many different churches and denominations. And that's true. A lot of heretics do use the Bible. So that's why I say like Nicene Creed, they were dealing with all the earliest heresies and they sat down and grafted like the tightest statement I think we've got.

Mr. Borkavich (12:52.357)
Lot of heretics, love the Bible!

Mr. Borkavich (13:09.945)
Yeah. Okay. All right, Thomas, same question.

Theotokos Appreciator (13:13.57)
I saw someone recently said it in a way that I liked where it was a willful ignorance or refusal to confess an established Christian doctrine after baptism, which I thought was good. Now, if that's maybe a

Mr. Borkavich (13:32.347)
Hmm, okay.

Theotokos Appreciator (13:39.918)
slipping into a definition of a heretic, which I feel like, you know, that's an important distinction to draw is between like a heresy, which is an idea. and then a heretic, which is somebody who has, I would, I would say somebody who is, wholeheartedly embraced the idea. I would, I would, I wouldn't walk around just like calling people heretics who are maybe accidentally or out of

simple ignorance, believing something that is contrary to what Scripture teaches, but something about that willfulness, I think, adds an extra layer of clarity there for me.

Mr. Borkavich (14:24.207)
Yeah. Yeah. I like that. I like both of those arguments a lot. And I think that, Thomas, I like yours because it distinguishes that a heretic is someone who is like, because I've heard someone ask the question once, is a Muslim a heretic? And that's a really interesting question because early on in like the seventh century when Islam came into being, they called Muslims Mohammedans.

because a lot of them were from that kind of Nestorian, kind of drifted off from the Church of the East background. And they still talked about God, considered Jesus a prophet. And so the question is like, well, is this person a heretic if they hold some views, but not others? But I like yours because it says, after your baptism, after you've claimed to walk with Christ, be, you know,

baptized in Christ and filled with his presence and you still willingly reject these ideas. I almost think when I think of what heresy is, I almost think of it kind of like, I take like the negative point of view where it's like I look at all the big heresies throughout history and I think what do all these have in common? Clearly, heresy, clearly a lot of the heresies

do a lot of the same things. They attack the nature of Jesus. They attack the nature of the Trinity. They attack the relationship between God and man. So that just kind of makes me think these are the core ideas of how we understand and relate to God at the very core of our faith. So I think I like your definition, Taylor, on like keeping Nicaea central. Yeah, I just think because...

You know, the big problem, and of course, everyone who ever went through that cage stage Calvinist phase, you know, has to ask the question eventually of like, at what point is it not heresy? Like at what point is it just something that someone can be wrong about, but they're still able to worship in spirit and truth, or maybe not fully truth, but still able to worship God in error, I guess would be a better way of putting it.

Kim Jung Un (16:41.593)
Well, we all are in error in some form or fashion, all of us. So you have to be willing to. I've heard people delineate between lowercase H and capital H heresies. And I'm not a big fan of that, because I do think the H-bomb should be reserved for actual heresy, right? Like, I don't.

Mr. Borkavich (16:47.021)
Sure, sure. Yeah.

Mr. Borkavich (17:00.782)
Hmm.

Mr. Borkavich (17:06.169)
Yeah, yeah.

Kim Jung Un (17:08.183)
I don't think Tommy's a heretic because he baptized his babies, you know? You're welcome, Tommy.

Mr. Borkavich (17:13.143)
Mm-hmm. Right. Well, and like, you know, there was that clip that was, that always goes like lowercase V viral in like the nerdy Christian circles where John MacArthur, I think, said, well, the Virgin Mary can't be the mother of God because that would make her the mother of a divine being.

Theotokos Appreciator (17:15.544)
Thanks. Thanks, man.

Mr. Borkavich (17:40.304)
And that's literally the argument that Nestorius made behind Nestorianism, which is one of the core Christological heresies of the early church. Does that make John MacArthur a heretic? Maybe by definition. I think it's a poor choice of words and I think it's a little problematic, but what I tell someone, you can't gleam anything valuable from John MacArthur because he made what was maybe an uninformed take. I don't really think so. I don't think I'm willing to throw everything out that he's ever taught because,

I don't know, maybe on one occasion he misrepresented something. So it's a weird but important kind of differentiation to make.

Theotokos Appreciator (18:17.432)
Well, being a heretic doesn't automatically mean you're not a Christian either. like, I'm thinking if that was the case, then Paul had no reason to write the letter of Galatians. know, if it was just like, well, they didn't get it. well, you know, he's writing to correct heretical belief and doctrine that was being taught in the church in Galatia.

Mr. Borkavich (18:33.115)
Mmm.

Theotokos Appreciator (18:47.406)
because they were Christians and they needed to be, you know, drawn away from this false teaching, that he did say threatened the integrity of the gospel. And so that, I mean, that's why the church has always fought against heresy, because it does matter. Heresy in, well, here's one of my quotes I found that I liked. This is Martin Lloyd-Jones. says, heresies always result from the wiles of the devil.

the efforts of the principalities and powers. Are your eyes open to it? Do you realize the relevance of all this to you as a member of the Christian Church? Are you being carried away by this loose, general, sentimental talk? God forbid that any of us should ever say that it matters not what you believe as long as you are a Christian. May God open our eyes in having given us to see the truth, then enable us to be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might.

take unto you the whole armor of God that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Mr. Borkavich (19:51.531)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I like that because when we look, I mean, and this is something that we discussed a lot when we went into some of our heresies, speaking of which, I'm going to pop quiz the heck out of you guys in a second. So just putting you on your toes. I know you did. But the heart of it is like, if a heresy is just, you know,

Theotokos Appreciator (19:52.812)
Yeah, like.

Kim Jung Un (20:02.053)
Ohhhh

Theotokos Appreciator (20:02.607)
my gosh, I hated this when we were on the heresies.

Kim Jung Un (20:07.813)
All right, no, no, it's good, it's good.

Mr. Borkavich (20:15.351)
you added the wrong vowel to this Greek phrase and now you're wrong about X, Y, and Z. At a certain point, we're just punishing people for not having a certain amount of intellect, which I don't think God is going to do, since God literally says that he is using the foolish to put to shame the wise. I think that the heart of it is what matters. It matters, and we can see the kind of demonic fingerprints in Pelagians who say, you know,

Kim Jung Un (20:26.83)
I know.

Mr. Borkavich (20:44.813)
No, you actually have the right to be perfect because you're not affected by sin. Like that is an evil doctrine to hold and that will bear ugly rotten fruit.

Kim Jung Un (20:56.345)
You know what's so interesting? I'll give a little anecdote before you go into quiz time. Many, many years ago when I was a youth pastor, I went to one of the kids' soccer games and his grandma was there and she was a church member. And she wasn't like, you know, this super hyper educated woman. And she was like very clearly unplugged from.

the any sort of like media discussion surrounding famous preachers or anything. Because she asked me, she goes, Taylor, you know that guy and he sells his books in Target, Joel Osteen? And I said, yeah, I do. And I'm like, no, where's this going? And she goes, my sister sent me some CDs with some sermons of his. And I just listened and I just thought, honey, this ain't the gospel.

Mr. Borkavich (21:49.849)
Hehehehe

Theotokos Appreciator (21:50.648)
Dude, based.

Kim Jung Un (21:51.622)
Yeah, I love that I love and so I thought you know I realized like yeah my sheep hear my voice you know Are you guys seen the video of the little old lady? She's getting like harassed by some Muslim apologists, and they're like his name's yeshua his name is yeshua you don't even pronounce his name right and she just looks at him and says I Call him Jesus, and he answers to that

Mr. Borkavich (21:53.317)
That's awesome.

Mr. Borkavich (21:59.47)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Theotokos Appreciator (22:21.144)
Hahaha, so good.

Kim Jung Un (22:21.859)
like like like she was not fazed by she was not

Theotokos Appreciator (22:27.054)
Hehehehehe

Mr. Borkavich (22:29.333)
those were black Hebrew Israelites. man, that would be a fun, weird, fringe episode to do. We thought about doing that one for a heretic episode, but they're not even claiming to be Christian. They do not like Christians. But man, that's a wild, those are always wild videos. They always bother me. Dude, like.

Theotokos Appreciator (22:31.79)
I was gonna say that sounds like Black Keepers.

Kim Jung Un (22:34.443)
what's the black Hebrew Israelites?

Kim Jung Un (22:46.541)
or white people. they, do they take you in John?

Mr. Borkavich (22:53.179)
I don't know if they would take me, bro. I'll say this complete honesty. My cousin on my black side, not my white side, is 100 % really bought into that. He posts about it all the time. he, was on, my dad was on speaker phone with him one time. And this was back when I was like, I think in seminary. And he was like, hey, John, why don't you give me a call sometime? I'd love to ask you a few questions. And.

I was like really thrown off by it we're not super close. And I wish I had followed up because I think he, don't know. I'm not sure what kind of argument would have gotten into, but I just know it would have been fascinating. And maybe he would have been like, look brother, you're half in, but you're also not half out. So like, come on in. can send you to half the monthly meetings.

Kim Jung Un (23:32.48)
Ha ha ha!

Theotokos Appreciator (23:38.137)
Hahaha

Kim Jung Un (23:42.211)
You're the dog that gets the table scraps.

Mr. Borkavich (23:45.884)
Sometimes sometimes scraps better than nothing. I'm not in the streets. You know what I mean? So yeah All right, we're gonna do this I'm gonna read the description of the heresy and then you guys just tell me what the heresy is and I'm gonna go all out of order So you can't so, know, no cheating. All right easy one God it's it's the heresy that believes that God

Kim Jung Un (23:49.337)
That's right. Yeah, that's right.

Mr. Borkavich (24:13.224)
is one person who appears throughout time in different forms.

Kim Jung Un (24:19.496)
Theotokos Appreciator (24:21.068)
That is,

Kim Jung Un (24:22.117)
Is that a Trinitarian heresy? Modalism?

Mr. Borkavich (24:26.327)
Mm-hmm. Modalism. That's modalism, Patrick. You got it. Yeah, you got it. See, there we go. All right. This one argued that humans can choose to do good without God's help because we are not born into original sin.

Kim Jung Un (24:30.553)
That's modalism, Patrick.

Kim Jung Un (24:46.821)
You got it, Tony?

Theotokos Appreciator (24:48.45)
not born into original sin.

Kim Jung Un (24:50.777)
Polygenism!

Mr. Borkavich (24:52.901)
plagianism yep that one was battled big-time that was one of the big two that Augustine had to contend with on top of the Donatist controversy which was more of a schism than a heresy but they did believe that the person who administers the sacrament can corrupt it which is why you can't have a bunch of you know bunch of bunch of goobers giving out the sacraments all right let's see

Theotokos Appreciator (24:58.115)
Gustin

Mr. Borkavich (25:20.091)
The belief that there is a secret knowledge as a way to attain salvation and also the physical world is evil. Gnosticism, that's right, the nasty Gnostics. Love it. Let's see, this one taught that Jesus only seemed human but that he was actually not flesh and blood. Docetism, very good. Also known as? Also known as Apollinarianism.

Theotokos Appreciator (25:26.798)
Gnosticism.

Kim Jung Un (25:38.725)
Dos- Dos- Dositism.

Ghost Jesus.

Theotokos Appreciator (25:45.262)
Trust you.

Kim Jung Un (25:49.078)
No!

Mr. Borkavich (25:51.076)
Yeah!

Kim Jung Un (25:52.835)
Now, Apollinarianism is more nuanced.

Mr. Borkavich (25:54.288)
Yeah. Okay, doctor. All right. Well, I'll let you approve that one later. This one was rejected at the council of Ephesus, claimed that Jesus was really two persons, but not one unified person. Correct. Yep. That's the big Theotokos one. They were saying, Mary is the mother of God. And people were like, nah, she can't be the mother of God.

Theotokos Appreciator (26:11.758)
and historianism.

Kim Jung Un (26:22.853)
Was that third ecumenical council?

Mr. Borkavich (26:23.195)
You're like, well, if she's not, hmm.

Theotokos Appreciator (26:30.414)
431 so

Mr. Borkavich (26:30.863)
Yes. Yeah.

Kim Jung Un (26:32.845)
yeah, that's number three, baby. Okay.

Mr. Borkavich (26:35.255)
Mm-hmm, that's right. Here's a tricky one. It said that Jesus only had one nature, a divine nature, after the Incarnation and that his humanity was absorbed into it.

Theotokos Appreciator (26:50.125)
Eudachianism?

Mr. Borkavich (26:51.599)
That's correct. Or monophysitism.

Kim Jung Un (26:52.887)
Nice. Wow. Yeah. Nice, Tommy.

Mr. Borkavich (26:58.657)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Let's see. This one we didn't cover. I kind of wish we did an episode on this one. This is the belief that Jesus was born human and later adopted by God at his baptism. Yeah, it's kind of in the name, but.

Theotokos Appreciator (27:11.342)
adoptionism.

Kim Jung Un (27:14.805)
I've never even heard of that.

Mr. Borkavich (27:17.401)
Yeah, I forget when-

Theotokos Appreciator (27:18.126)
I think we touched on that a little bit. I don't know that we did a full episode on it, but I think it maybe came up.

Mr. Borkavich (27:21.891)
I don't think we did. I don't think we did. I'm not even sure when that one really popped off. Yeah, I'm not totally sure.

Kim Jung Un (27:28.101)
Is that what they think after his baptism? Is that what they think? Like after his baptism he got his divine nature?

Mr. Borkavich (27:35.365)
I think so, yeah.

Like the whole like, this is my son was like, this is now my son, essentially.

Kim Jung Un (27:38.977)
That's

Yeah, that's interesting. I, I on the top, tell me, tell me really, unless we don't have time, tell me really quick what the problems with that are. I'm trying to think.

Mr. Borkavich (27:45.243)
Mm-hmm.

Mr. Borkavich (27:56.376)
Well, if Jesus attains his divine nature at a given moment, then he's not an eternal being, so it's essentially a denial of the Trinity.

Kim Jung Un (28:04.165)
Right, right. Yeah, good. Yeah, good. Good. Good. Good. They always have a

Mr. Borkavich (28:06.971)
You're like, I'm not, you're like, that's that's a terrible belief. Good. Tell me, tell me, tell everybody, everybody why it's so bad.

Theotokos Appreciator (28:13.966)
Thank you.

Kim Jung Un (28:15.105)
No, dude, I heard, I will call it semi-adoptionism taught once. And I was like, I don't know if that's right, but it might be right. Like somebody, I will not dox them, but they said that Jesus, when he was baptized, that was a nice moment for him to realize like he was divine.

Mr. Borkavich (28:22.395)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Jung Un (28:40.301)
So that's why I call it semi-adoptionism. So he would have had it, but he became aware of it at his baptism.

Theotokos Appreciator (28:48.396)
Well, he knew that I feel like him. Jesus in the temple is a, is a huge messes that up.

Mr. Borkavich (28:48.623)
Yeah

Mr. Borkavich (28:55.641)
Yeah, I was just thinking that he was doing his father's business. Yeah.

Kim Jung Un (29:01.711)
Good. Off the cuff apologetics. Nice.

Mr. Borkavich (29:08.955)
Yeah, okay, let's see. I don't know much about this one. It's taught that Jesus was just a regular human adopted by God. He was not divine and there was no virgin birth.

Kim Jung Un (29:22.935)
I don't... Schlier Mockerism? I don't know.

Theotokos Appreciator (29:23.918)
Where's your beard?

Mr. Borkavich (29:26.331)
This is a abeanism, ebionism. Yeah.

Kim Jung Un (29:32.976)
the Ebionites. like proto-liberal, proto-liberal theology. All right.

Mr. Borkavich (29:38.843)
proto liberals. There are some like, I don't think all liberals would say that Jesus wasn't divine, right? They would just be weird about it.

Kim Jung Un (29:48.461)
When I use the word liberal, I mean it in the academy sense.

Mr. Borkavich (29:53.436)
okay, okay, yeah. Last one. This told me to do an episode on the claim that the God of the Old Testament was evil and separate from the loving God of the New Testament. so they, that's right. So they ripped out the Old Testament. Yeah.

Kim Jung Un (30:04.165)
Marcianism.

Kim Jung Un (30:10.009)
That's wild, that's an early one too, bro. And they were not, yeah, cutting out pieces of the Bible. Well before Thomas Jefferson.

Mr. Borkavich (30:13.691)
Mm-hmm.

Mr. Borkavich (30:19.833)
Yeah. And I want to say, yeah, was thinking about that. And I think, so what's interesting as we go through all of these is that a lot of these heresies were schismatic in that Aryans were not going to Nicene churches. Like this was usually, there would be a leader. The leader would kind of say, Hey, I've got the true path.

Theotokos Appreciator (30:23.15)
Yeah.

Mr. Borkavich (30:47.407)
And then they would kind of create their own little wing. So the people arguing for orthodoxy weren't just telling the people who were asking questions at their church, they were heretics. They were actually trying to get the heretics back into church. And so I think that's the interesting thing that distinguishes, you know, how we call, how we deal with heresy today and heresy back in the early church is that back then,

Like, a Nestorian can be going to church every day and worshipping and doing all that stuff. Back then, Nestorians are doing their own thing. They're completely removed. Anyway, so what are you gonna say, Thomas?

Theotokos Appreciator (31:29.408)
I remember when we were doing this series as we kind of progressed, you know, from the the grand mama Arianism, you know on into later heresies, which I mean we had to we had to spill a lot of podcast ink going over talking about the nuances of especially as they start parsing

exactly how it works that you know Jesus has two natures and what is you know what is their relation and what does that mean for his relationship with you know his mother and like things like that and one thing that we acknowledged is that the farther you get in the Christological heresies in history the more likely it is that you could have somebody who like could inadvertently hold to that belief

maybe before being confronted on it, it doesn't necessarily mean they're not a Christian. Whereas if someone's like, yeah, I think that, you know, God created Jesus, like, well then you're not a Christian. Like, going back to what Taylor was saying about Nicaea, it's like, that's not a belief that you can just kind of accidentally hold and still be operating, you know, within the Christian faith. Whereas, you know, if you ask your grandma, you know, who's been a

Mr. Borkavich (32:40.571)
Mm-hmm.

Mr. Borkavich (32:48.602)
Right.

Theotokos Appreciator (32:53.854)
know, faithful Christian her whole life, but hasn't ever read a theology book or read up on Christological heresies. And you ask her, Hey grandma, does, does Jesus have one, one nature or two? You know, she's going to be like one, you know, and like, that doesn't mean that she's not a Christian. but when we, think going back to how we're defining a heresy or a heretic, we noticed that, a lot of these guys that,

Mr. Borkavich (33:04.77)
You

Theotokos Appreciator (33:23.392)
ended up, we named these heresies after them, are the guys who kind of bucked up against church authority when they were challenged and refused to recant these positions.

Mr. Borkavich (33:32.879)
Right.

Kim Jung Un (33:34.782)
Well, and that's, I mean, that comes down to like, do you submit to your pastor? Right?

your leadership over you. Because I feel like if pastor came to me and said, hey, Taylor, know, when you were praying during worship last week, you said this and it could have been taken this way. Is that how you think like God is? You know, like a gentle correction. I'm like, well, yeah, God's ready to just smite any Christian at any given moment because he's a big angry guy. Like, you know, that's where it's now it's on Taylor to humble himself and accept the correction. Or that's going to

Mr. Borkavich (33:44.123)
Mm-hmm.

Mr. Borkavich (34:09.274)
Right.

Kim Jung Un (34:11.705)
You know, that's going to escalate, right? And then maybe I end up getting the capital H slapped on me.

Mr. Borkavich (34:14.555)
Now, let me ask you guys both a question.

Mr. Borkavich (34:20.283)
Let me ask you guys both a question. So I'm sure you've probably seen, if not, I'll remind you of the either Barna Group or Pew Research studies that they've done where they polled a bunch of Christians. And I know you know where I'm going. They polled a bunch of Christians. And again, I don't know if these were just kind of people who identify as Christian or like regular church going Christians, but the statistics were very bad.

Theotokos Appreciator (34:33.096)
my gosh. Yeah.

Kim Jung Un (34:46.445)
I would know dude they were they were like regular they were regular churchgoers dude it's bad

Mr. Borkavich (34:51.555)
And there was like, I mean, I'm pulling out of memory. So don't, don't take this as gospel, but it's essentially like, you know, maybe 60 % of Christians believe that, Jesus was fully God. you know, there were like 25 % didn't believe that Jesus was born to a Virgin mother. you know, all these kinds of things, all these kinds of core doctrines. So when you guys hear that, what is that?

kind of stir up in you. What does that make you think about kind of the state of these people's souls?

Kim Jung Un (35:26.499)
I have a whole monologue, so I should probably let Tommy answer first.

Theotokos Appreciator (35:32.046)
feel like it doesn't make me... How do I want to put this? That's indicative of the American evangelical church as a whole, which means that certainly there are a lot of people, using your kind of pretend numbers that you just came up with, 40 %... Let's say, I would be comfortable guessing that like 40 % of the people who say that they're Christians in...

America aren't because they just they actually don't They're not familiar with the Christian faith, which really that means that we have a big discipleship problem What I don't think that means is that 40 % of the people in your church aren't Christians, right? Like that's not how statistics work but it is indicative of a pretty serious teaching and discipleship issue in in America certainly

Mr. Borkavich (36:30.627)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well said. Taylor?

Kim Jung Un (36:34.404)
So I need to triple check. This does sound like it's Gregory of Nyssa. So I'm going to give you guys a quote. It's one of those guys in Chat GPT Hallucinates. I knew that this quote existed. I'm pretty sure it's Nyssa, but Chat GPT might falsely attribute it to him. But if you ask a baker the price of a loaf, he would reply, the father is great and the son inferior. And if your bath is ready, the servant will tell you the son was made out of nothing.

And what that quote, it's a fun little like, it's kind of funny and smarmy or whatever. But he's talking about you had a heresy that had just infiltrated into regular everyday lives of people.

And then on top of that, was very widespread. So you have the baker talking about it, then you have the servant getting your bath ready saying a heresy. And I think nowadays we unfortunately have, we've kind of like.

Mr. Borkavich (37:24.304)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Jung Un (37:41.281)
gotten there. I think if you ask your average, you know, using a modern term for a baker, you ask your average Starbucks barista, what do you think about God? They're going to say something essentially akin to God. Well, God just wants me to be happy and just wants me to do my own thing. Insert whatever other role is serving you in society. Your average folks have a very poor view and poor understanding of God and the Barnett research

reflects that. And I think as Tommy suggested, this is an indictment against evangelicalism as a whole. Our catechesis process is terrible. I think the stars that I was raised on like Lifeway curriculum twice a week because I inadvertently was catechized through

of reading the curriculum that was written by a bunch of people that have PhDs. But there was no like question and answer like the same, you know, the way other catechisms are written. Like that did not exist for Southern Baptist upbringing. So dad, if you're listening, thanks for taking me to Sunday skew. But the scary one second, Tommy, and then I'm done. Monologue will be over. The scary part.

Theotokos Appreciator (38:59.426)
I think.

Mr. Borkavich (38:59.641)
Hmm

Theotokos Appreciator (39:04.014)
Yeah

Kim Jung Un (39:05.434)
The scary part is that now Sunday school is evaporating. So we have, are already like off the beaten path, barely functional version of catechism is now ceasing to exist. So I don't know where.

Theotokos Appreciator (39:23.608)
Yeah, and in that vacuum where there's not any solid teaching coming, it's the vacuum of teaching entirely I think that's causing the problem. Because I don't think that there's like that many pastors out there who, especially in the evangelical camp, who are like that wrong on these issues, that these people believe these things because their Christian leader told them something that wasn't true.

They believe what they believe about God. It's some sort of mixture of secular education combined with kind of like a Disney-fied pop culture. it's pop culture really is what it is. It's just signals coming from lots of different places. Music, the arts. It's like vaguely Christian. I like the term

And I think the Barner research really reflects this moralistic, therapeutic deism is really what a lot of Americans who call themselves Christians are actually practicing as their religion is moralistic. So, I do good things, good things are going to happen to me. I do bad things, bad things are going to happen to me. Therapeutic, God wants...

Mr. Borkavich (40:24.187)
Hmm.

Theotokos Appreciator (40:46.486)
you know, what's best for me. God is just kind of like this loving, kind of grandfatherly figure that I go to for comfort, which certainly we go to God for comfort, but like that's all that God is. And then it's deistic. God is also kind of separated from us. It's not an incarnational Christianity where baptism into Christ and His life and death

influencing how we live and act and believe. Like none of that is part of this framework.

Mr. Borkavich (41:21.915)
Yeah, yeah, I was literally thinking about that exact phrase Thomas of like if I had to nail down what I think the most prevailing heresy in America right now, it's a very comfortable God who wants to keep your pockets full, wants to keep you from really challenging your idolatry, wants to keep you from

loving people in difficult ways, wants to keep you from really challenging any of your own presuppositions about the world around you. Yeah, he's basically just, he's here in your corner. He's there to support you. He's there to advance your kingdom, essentially. And yeah, mean, then it's tough. When I think back on that study, I think of the...

Theotokos Appreciator (42:09.16)
Yay, that's good. Yeah. Yeah.

Mr. Borkavich (42:17.829)
the scripture that says, like, my people perish for lack of knowledge. And again, it's like, this knowledge is meant to be, like, the knowledge of God is meant to be something that nourishes us, something that feeds our spirits and allows us to go forward in good works. And, you know, I do think it's interesting because I think that the two traditions that we represent through the Baptists and the Presbyterian slash Reformed movement,

Like we do tend to emphasize the intellectual side of the faith quite a bit more than others. And I don't think it's a bad thing. It does make me wonder like, how do we catechize those who, you know, just naturally wouldn't go to a church that would catechize, you know, cause when we see the types of churches that are blowing up all over the world that are really getting significant.

Like there still is that level of discipleship happening, but it's probably not through, you know, the reciting of creeds. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but just like, how can we kind of cross these different cultural barriers, I think is an interesting question that I have.

Theotokos Appreciator (43:28.174)
I think a big part of it is music. Music has profound ability to teach us things better than anything. so music is also really dangerous weapon in the hands of the devil. know, like going back to Martin Lloyd Jones quote of like, heresies are the result of the wiles of the devil. You know, like,

Mr. Borkavich (43:31.417)
Yeah.

Theotokos Appreciator (43:57.642)
Heresy can find its way into music really easily, but music is also really powerful for communicating truth. so I think Christian musicians and artists, writers who are applying sound doctrine to their music or using music to communicate sound doctrine the other way around, or maybe it's like it's explicit.

You know, like we're gonna have a song that is actually teaching a particular doctrine. That's another way. I think that that's part of it.

Mr. Borkavich (44:27.695)
Mm-hmm.

Mr. Borkavich (44:38.617)
Yeah, yeah, I think that's a good point.

Kim Jung Un (44:40.87)
I am obviously a worship leader and in charge of the songs we sing at church. And I was very convicted in the last year to just make sure I changed our lyrics because Pastor Anthony looked at me and said, Taylor, all

all of, we only have so many words to sing together every Sunday, right? So shouldn't we make these words matter? And that stuck with me because I then started looking at, and I don't, think Phil Wickham's a great guy.

And his songs are super catchy. And I think he's doing a lot of good in the world. But also he writes a lot of like fluff. And when someone says, well, what do you mean fluff? Because any line I quote from him will be truth.

Mr. Borkavich (45:26.299)
Hmm.

Kim Jung Un (45:33.391)
Right? So, you know, one of the first one that comes off of my head is like that song that's like, says, remember those walls that we called sin and shame. They were like giants that stood in our way, but he came and he rose and like those, those giants are dead now or the walls are rubble now that song. And you're like, okay, that's true. There's truth to that. But if I, if I can only sing.

three, four, five songs with my church once a week. Do I want it to be that or do I want it to be he will hold me fast? Or in, you know, yeah. So I have a I I promise, John, I wouldn't mention this, but it's just too good. I have to. I'm writing a paper. I'm writing a paper right now on.

Theotokos Appreciator (46:08.312)
Yeah, no, I know. I know what you mean.

Mr. Borkavich (46:24.294)
my gosh.

Kim Jung Un (46:24.902)
Gregory of Nazianzus wrote some things against Julian the Apostate after he died and part way through it he kind of talks about the church getting soft.

And he says, in reality, seems a harder matter to retain good things than to obtain those that we do not possess more easy to recover departed prosperity by dent of care than to preserve long that which is present and pride go before destruction and the Proverbs will say humility before glory. And then he says, or if that I may speak more plainly, ruin follows pride and glorification follows humility. And so to answer your question, like, what do we do?

about heresies that are prominent in America. I don't know if there's anything we can do catechesis wise. Like people have to suffer a little bit. I mean later down later on down in this exact section he says

Kim Jung Un (47:29.786)
He says, we, having been exalted when we were virtuous and orderly and having grown up into this form and multitude through God's guidance, waxed fat and kicked. And when we had spread ourselves out, we were pressed close in the glory and strength that we had gathered amidst persecutions and oppressions. This, when we prospered, we brought to ruin. The sequel of my discourse shall show how. So he goes in and explains how. But he's talking about, you remember Gregory's writing like.

a generation after the Diocletian persecutions. So you have this guy that's saying, hey, we had it hard and we done good when it was hard. And now when it got easy, we, as he said, waxed fat and kicked. So we didn't take it seriously. do. think right now, like right now, the church in America has had no reason to take anything seriously.

Mr. Borkavich (48:24.281)
Well, one of my favorite quotes that I read from when we were doing our heretic series a couple years ago was, think it was from a book called The Cruelty of Heresy, which I thought was really, really good, really interesting. And it basically said like, Christians should not be walking like, like trying to avoid heresies, like some dude who like stares at the sidewalk, like trying not to step on cracks. It's like, no, you're supposed to be looking forward or even better. You're supposed to be looking upward. Like

our eyes should not be fixed on what we're trying to avoid. It should be fixed on like Christ himself. Because like we said, and this is, and this to me is the most picture perfect example of what a believer is. It's someone who loves Christ and hears his voice and maybe they can't articulate really many of the deeper truths of the, of the Christian doctrine, but

they know enough about it to follow Christ where he leads them, just like a sheep would. Because again, sheep are dumb. Sheep aren't talking about how many centimeters their shepherd stands. And not to say this stuff isn't significant, it's not. But I know dudes, unfortunately, who can dismantle Nestorianism theologically in a heartbeat, but then they can't have a

a productive argument with their spouse. And it's like, okay, dude, why'd you put all your stat points into one thing and not into practical theology? Like how you actually love with your heart and not just with your brain cells. So yeah, that has been in no way meant to come across like anti-intellectual at all, but it really is like the fruit of...

Kim Jung Un (50:05.926)
Hmm.

Mr. Borkavich (50:15.429)
good theology should be expressed in this day-to-day life and in walking with Jesus, Monday to Saturday, as they say. So, yeah.

Kim Jung Un (50:27.75)
That's good. I love the idea of a sheep. You know, sheeps getting together and talking about, well, he holds his staff like this when he's walking a certain way.

Mr. Borkavich (50:37.683)
Yeah, yeah, they're like, I think his wingspan is probably about 58 centimeters. They're like, Oh, but have you considered that, you know, he's older now. He's 65, maybe kind of hunched muscles are contracting a little bit.

Kim Jung Un (50:47.182)
Right. And you know the happiest, the happiest sheep are the ones that are just following him going, bah.

Mr. Borkavich (50:53.539)
It's like, did you guys drink from that spring yesterday? That was so cool. my gosh. And I was so thirsty. I felt so good after that. man.

Kim Jung Un (50:55.738)
That was awesome.

Theotokos Appreciator (50:56.782)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kim Jung Un (51:01.744)
and then they're like talking about like, and then he fought off those wolves. That was so sweet.

Mr. Borkavich (51:06.706)
Yeah, they just think he's the best. And dude, that's what I love, man. I love people who are just like, I love God so much. They're just like, God is so good to me. They just walk around with a smile on their faces because they're just like, God is their Lord, but he's also their friend. And I just love seeing that. That's such a cool thing. one thing, this is last thing I'll say and I'll stop soapboxing. I spent a lot of time ministering at kind of like,

one of those millennial hipster, you know, we're Christian, but we're also a little bit too cool to be Christian, kind of that awkward tension. And dude, dude, I just like, I want so badly for all of the church, millennials, Gen Z, little babies, whatever.

Kim Jung Un (51:44.132)
We call ourselves followers of the way.

Mr. Borkavich (51:56.41)
to just unapologetically love Jesus and not worry about if it feels or looks cool or not. I wrote this down in a journal note that I have, and I said, one of these days I wanna get to being one of those guys who just sends texts to my Christian friends a couple times a month. It's just like, hey man, just wanna let you know Jesus loves you.

And I was thinking about you today and I hope you're having a good day. God bless you. I hope we'll talk soon. And I'm like, man, why don't I do this? And it's because I have this feeling of like, you're such a little dork, but it's like, who cares? Come on, man. So yeah, I don't know. The tension.

Theotokos Appreciator (52:26.221)
Hmm.

Theotokos Appreciator (52:30.713)
Mm-hmm.

This way, this way God says he loves the faith of children. Childlike faith is what is what Jesus has in mind.

Mr. Borkavich (52:39.961)
Yeah, it's so much nicer. Not teenager faith, bro. Teenager faith sucks, But anyways.

Theotokos Appreciator (52:47.426)
Ha ha ha.

Kim Jung Un (52:47.814)
Well, dude, I think that little old lady getting harassed by the black Hebrew Israelites, and she just looks at him and I don't remember exactly what she said, but it was essentially along the lines of like, I call him Jesus, just fine, thank you. dude, she just wasn't having it. She didn't feel the need to engage on there until, you you don't know it to Greek. Do you even know what to Greek alphabet? And she's like, I don't care.

Mr. Borkavich (53:02.415)
Yeah, yeah.

Mr. Borkavich (53:13.371)
Yeah, she's like, I'm not gonna go home and lose sleep over this for a second. Like, I feel very comfortable. Yeah. All right. Well, gang, thanks for bearing with us this episode. This was a fun little discussion. Thank you guys for all of our listeners. If you have any thoughts on what you would consider heresy, how you feel like the church should respond to what you deem the most horrendous heresy of this time, let us know in the comments.

Theotokos Appreciator (53:13.688)
Yeah.

Kim Jung Un (53:16.71)
Yeah

Theotokos Appreciator (53:18.03)
You

Mr. Borkavich (53:39.947)
And yeah, like we said, we've already shared this before, but we're going to be working on the Crusades dropping in January. So we've got a couple of little fun kind of off the wall topics to talk through and fill in. yeah, we'll see you guys next week.

Kim Jung Un (53:55.001)
Rick before they go before they go stop the music ray stop the music You guys need I mean you guys listeners John did the poll How long should the series be and some of y'all voted for four weeks for the crusades? Baby, I hate to break it to you, but we wouldn't even get the intro done in four weeks. So Some of y'all need to just buckle in and understand

Theotokos Appreciator (53:55.47)
God bless you.

Mr. Borkavich (53:57.372)
What? Hey Ray, can we stop the music here?

Theotokos Appreciator (54:21.347)
Yeah.

Mr. Borkavich (54:22.085)
Taylor, you need to let them actually do what they're doing, The question, the reason we're asking is because we don't want to make six months worth of Crusades episodes and have our listeners stop listening and get really burnt out. Well, we need to know what they voted for. You're a tyrant, that's the problem.

Theotokos Appreciator (54:26.957)
Yeah.

Theotokos Appreciator (54:34.36)
Yeah.

Kim Jung Un (54:34.692)
They voted for it!

Kim Jung Un (54:39.226)
Yeah, I'm just... Taylor the Tyrant.

Theotokos Appreciator (54:39.406)
Taylor, Taylor disciplined you with, with whips, AKA the deaths of the apostle series. And I will discipline you with scorpions, AKA whatever I decided to do.

Kim Jung Un (54:51.238)
Tommy, like today, we're looking at how ship travel was used by crusading evangelists. And he would have like 15 primary sources from ship travel.

Theotokos Appreciator (54:56.334)
Hahahaha

Ha ha.

Mr. Borkavich (55:01.572)
Alright.

Mr. Borkavich (55:07.099)
Like, guess what guys, this part four of digging the perfect moat. Digging the perfect moat. All right, let's get into it. It's like, it's been four years.

Kim Jung Un (55:13.37)
Hahaha!

Theotokos Appreciator (55:16.558)
Dude, some of our listeners who had lot of Tylenol when they were kids will love that stuff.

Kim Jung Un (55:17.829)
And you know.

Mr. Borkavich (55:26.107)
You

Kim Jung Un (55:27.43)
Dude, I'd love it. I think my mom had Tylenol when she had me.

Theotokos Appreciator (55:29.902)
hahahaha

Mr. Borkavich (55:30.075)
We'll see, we'll see. Yeah, let us know in the comments how long. I think the sweet spot is like 12 to 15 episodes. It gives us time for background. We can get into each crusade. We can talk about some key figures. But if you think shorter, think longer, let us know. We wanna know where we don't wanna burn you guys out.

Kim Jung Un (55:49.334)
I ordered a book on one event. An entire book on one event in the Crusades.

Mr. Borkavich (55:54.969)
Yeah, see that was just a terrible- why would you do that? That was a complete waste. Why would you do that?

Kim Jung Un (55:59.834)
Well, you're getting an episode on it.

Theotokos Appreciator (56:02.574)
What was the event?

Mr. Borkavich (56:03.053)
I'm sure we are.

Kim Jung Un (56:03.544)
It's the Children's Crusade. Yeah, 1212, baby.

Theotokos Appreciator (56:06.706)
yeah, that'll be an interesting one.

Mr. Borkavich (56:08.408)
Okay.

Theotokos Appreciator (56:11.414)
Is that what they called themselves? Because they were 12? They were like, 12, 12, baby.

Mr. Borkavich (56:11.963)
Yeah.

Kim Jung Un (56:16.251)
It's the 6-7 of the ancient times. 12-12. All right, Ray, get the music.

Theotokos Appreciator (56:19.117)
Yeah.

Mr. Borkavich (56:26.063)
Alright, let's wrap it up. Thanks for chatting, team. We'll talk to you guys later.

Kim Jung Un (56:29.904)
Bye bye!